The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: havregryn on May 31, 2019, 03:01:32 AM
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We are a married couple, 35(w) and 38 (h), with two kids ages 6 and 3 and a third one scheduled to join us in late December/early January.
We live in Luxembourg and financially we are doing more than fine.
However, our quality of life is impaired by my growing misery of living in Luxembourg and my utter lack of motivation for my (very well paid and secure, but very uninspiring) job. What I want is to live in a major urban area (we moved here from Stockholm and I have been pining over it ever since) and take some time off (the time off is probably 80% of my motivation behind the 3rd baby being brewed, as my job comes with very, very generous parental leave policies).
So, anyway, turns out husband may have the option to be seconded to work in New York for 2-3 years (which is great as we would never consider a permanent move to the US). Obviously I go all "yes, yes, that!" but I want to reality check my daydreaming as I think it is likely that my idea of NYC is too heavily influenced by popular culture.
I guess I'm just after some random thoughts and pieces of advice, what would be great and what could go terribly wrong over attempting to live in NYC for 3 years with 3 small kids?
I don't yet know the details of the financial package he'd be getting, but it is a major company and he is in management so I don't think it's likely that the offer will be bad and we already live in a soulcrushingly expensive place. We already have quite an impressive net worth and my cushy job will be waiting for me to recharge my batteries and return to it so even if we end up saving significantly less than we do now, it's not really a dealbreaker.
Important point, I don't drive and don't want to drive, which is one of the main reasons why Luxembourg doesn't work for me (very car-centric) whereas NYC sounds a lot more promising.
Also, our 6 year old speaks English as his first language and by now sounds entirely American (courtesy of Netlix and the fact we're paying a trained American teacher to work with him, it is a very long and complex story that came out of him having a language delay and being in a very, very multilingual environment where he was expected to master 6 (!) but it wasn't working...anyway, my point is that for him personally, moving to the US is moving to an "easier" situation and not a potential challenge, I think for him it's going to be harder to go back).
I think these two things alone weigh quite heavily on the pro side.
My main cons are the fear that it may turn out too overwhelming to be alone with three kids in such an unfamiliar place while my husband works even longer hours and well, the horror stories we have all heard of American healthcare. My current health insurance is valid worldwide but explicitly states that they will not apply their usual reimbursement rules for care obtained in the US.
I am guessing I'd qualify for some kind of a cover under my husband but I am terrified in principle simply because we've lived all our lives in Europe and we are not used to thinking of healthcare as a major expense. And I haven't been the healthiest person on Earth, I had a blood clot in my brain in 2015. I am fine now but well, I remember being in a hospital with dozens of high tech tests being performed on me and not paying a cent for it so..
I've never been to the US at all and sometimes I feel the culture shock may be immense (I am very much a European socialist snowflake, even Luxembourg is hard for me). But then again 2-3 years in NY feel like they could just be some very slow form of travel...I don't know. I'll be very grateful for all insights and opinions.
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Sounds like a great adventure and 2-3 years is manageable. NYC is intense, unlike any city on earth. Summers are hot, winters freezing. There’s lots to get used to, but if you take time, you’ll be fine. You’ll need an eye on the kids and since it sounds like you’ll have money, maybe get an au pair to help out. There’s surprisingly lots of free things to do in NYC. Your husband will have healthcare through work, so you’ll all be covered. The number 1 reason expatriate assignments fail is unhappiness of the spouse and kids. Your kids are young, they’ll be ok. You though will need to join some groups, maintain ties with your family back home, have friends and family visit, invest in help around the house and remind yourself that it’s the journey not the destination and you’ll be ok. Maybe live in Brooklyn so you can experience the quieter side of NY?
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I live a couple hours north of New York City, and it was my husband's home town, so we were always down there a lot--more for spending time with the family than for doing the tourist things. Yes, people do live and raise their little children in Manhattan! I still take the bus down when there is something I want to do down there--now that he is gone, I am more freed up to do the things tourists do--see a show or a museum, whatever--rather than family visits. Anyway, I would highly recommend it--New York is the capital of the world, after all--has so much to offer--even if it turns out you don't love it, I would never pass up the opportunity to live there for a while with your family.
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The joy of a really big city is that there are a multitude of different lives you can live there - living in the outer suburbs dependent on a car will not be for you, but an apartment close to a neighbourhood centre and with a limited commute for your husband will be.
The answers to most of your questions will be in the expat package available to your husband, so working through the details of that will be key. He/you will probably find that the company HR people based in New York will be better able to answer questions about health care, education and child care than ones in Luxembourg. Once you get details of the financial package available I'm sure there are people on the forum here who will be able to tell you how it will match up to the costs of living as a family in New York.
I think it sounds like a wonderful opportunity.
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This sounds somewhat similar to my own adventure in Dublin, coming from the US. I agree that the answers start with your husband's package. They could even include housing, if it is generous. They will certainly include medical coverage of some kind.
If you can stand it, I would also encourage you to think of your return, as well, and set yourself up to make that as easy as possible. For us, we say we are moving from Michigan to Texas, by way of Ireland. If your company's package is generous, they will likely assume (or insist) that you are returning to Luxembourg. But if that isn't for you, then you will want to either pick your next, next home or make your life as lightweight as possible, so you can move wherever. Store your keepsakes with or near your parents or a close relative, bring with you only a minimum of things (think of it as a one-way move for the things, absent again some dear items) and sell the rest. Sell your house. Put your European life on auto-pilot: auto-pay remaining bills / transactions, or at least move everything to online billing. Keep a European "persona" (i.e. current phone number, moved to VOIP service) for those companies for whom a US residency would be too complicated, and for convenience of friends and family.
Don't be afraid to deviate from the corporate package, even if it's at your expense, if it steers you in the direction you want.
Once you are in the US, of course you aren't just limited to NYC. There are many different places to see, and you would be sitting in a key transportation hub with a lot of competition for your travel dollar. You won't be bored!
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It will definitely be a challenge! Things happen so fast that foreigners (including Americans from other locations) often think NYers are rude. In fact it's usually because there are certain ways to behave -- primarily fast -- that keep such a dense city moving and it takes a little while to pickup on how to move in the city.
In terms of healthcare, it's not very mustachian, but there are actually healthcare advocate services here that you can pay for to ease your concern about dealing with insurance. You should definitely learn the basics like premium, deductible, and copay. But insurance companies make money by denying claims, so if you're worried about that a healthcare advocate could help.
I imagine your biggest problem will be maneuvering around the city with three kids! How do you do that in Lux with no car? If you want to take three young ones out at the same time you will need another person, so it would be wise to price out a nanny for at least several days a week assuming you're staying home full time. Theoretically you can have everything delivered within an hour or two, but you will want to get out with the kids and alone on occasion.
So this won't be a frugal venture, but if you want a change of pace from Luxembourg for a few years, NY will surely do that for you!
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Do it. Life is too short and fleeting not to. I made a random move from the US to Amsterdam (for work) years ago and it was one of the best experiences of my life. I knew nothing about life in Europe and it was a huge learning/growing experience for me.
Granted, I didn't have kids at the time, but that's absolutely no excuse. Kids are super adaptable, especially at that age.
Don't worry about the healthcare. Yes, there are some costs associated with healthcare here, and you always hear horror stories about $100k hospital bills, but in reality what is going to happen is your husband is going to have an incredible medical plan that might cost him $500-$1000/mo from his pre-tax income, but it will completely cover all five of you and protect you from any crazy medical bills. The otherwise much lower taxes here will more than make up for the cost.
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I've done three time-limited relocations with small children in the opposite direction (US to Germany), but without a corporate expat package. Even on a shoestring budget like ours, they were great experiences. The number one factor in success, imo, is the enthusiasm of the person called the "trailing spouse" (horrible term) and since you are eager for the lifestyle change and fluent in the language, you should have a great time!
Surely your husband's compensation will include medical insurance for the whole family.
As far as the kids go, obviously the baby will be fine wherever you are. The 6yo I presume will be in school, and that will give him opportunities to make friends and develop connections. I would find some way for the 3yo to do the same independently of you, so that you don't have to be the channel through which he/she experiences NYC. (For this reason, although we homeschool in the US, we sent our kids to the local German schools.
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I'm from NYC. Let me know if you have any specific questions. I'd say do it so long as the expat package is adequate. I'm sure that it will cover health care so that should not be an issue. Housing is crazy expensive in NYC but I guess you already knew that. Childcare also costs a lot. One thing to think about is living in an area that is still "the city" but not right in the center of town. There are plenty of areas like that in NYC - upper parts of Manhattan, inner parts of Brooklyn and Queens and even Jersey City and Hokoken. Since you don't drive, it doesn't sound like the suburbs will not be your thing so don't go to Westchester, Long Island etc.
One nice thing about NY is that no one drives there and very few people own cars. I don't think you'll have problems getting around with 3 kids and no car. There's the subway, buses and biking (maybe you could get a bike trailer for the kids) which work just fine with kids.
NYC is a unique, fast paced place. I'm from there so I love it. Maybe you should pay a visit first to see if it's your cup of tea? It's great as it has all kinds of different people - it's definitely not a company town. When I lived there, I had friends and family in my boring corporate field but also musicians, artists, people in the fashion world, actors, people who worked in tech and advertising, publishing, academia, museums etc etc. NYC attracts ambitious people in almost all fields from around the world which gives it an amazing energy.
I just saw above that you miss Stockholm - NYC is a LOT bigger and more cosmopolitan than Stockholm, which is a country town in comparison so keep that in mind.
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I would say give it a try especially if the money is good.
-Live near work so that you don't have to rely on the subway which is filthy, overcrowded, invested with rats, bums and other shady characters (to be fair, though, I wouldn't call it dangerous).
-If you can afford it, choose a high rise building with a doorman. NYC is very noisy. The higher up you are the quieter it is.
-Research good schools for your child, public and private. I don't have first hand experience, but I would say that if there are no good public options, pay for private school. I know that some people coming from homogeneous European countries feel that it's ok and even noble to place their children in whatever public school is available. Well, NY is very different, so keep that in mind.
-NY can be great if you have a lot of money and can throw this money to solve problems or avoid them in the first place. It can also be very miserable if you don't have enough money.
ETA: I missed the part that you have 3 children. Then you'll need either a bigger apartment or a nice house in the outer boroughs or suburbs. Which means you'll have to rely on public transport. Depending on where you commute from, the commute ranges from ok to miserable. I would research that as well. Citydata forums may be a good place to ask specific questions about locations and commute.
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I am totally a city bug and that is one of the main reasons why Luxembourg is driving me nuts and the mention of NYC got me all starry eyed. I grew up in the countryside and I hated every minute of it. To me quality of life is all about how many things there are to do, how spontaneous you can be when deciding what to do on a given day, how easy it is to get to places without a car (I have extreme driving anxiety after having had that stroke), in short everything associated with major urban areas. Luxembourg is driving me nuts. We manage as we have a lot of money to spend on nannies, taxis and whatnot, but to be honest, one big issue is that this is a very boring place to be if I am not working, and if I am here I better be working as I get paid a lot for it. And I am quite burnt out with my job as it is, well, boring and there is a lot of petty office politics around it and, while I could easily pursue a different job with the same employer, I am too afraid that taking on a bigger bite might make it even harder to manage children so I am just being a vegetable in my current job and living for the day I go on parental leave with the baby I am pregnant with. This NYC thing came up almost as a joke because our 6 year old often asks to go to "America" and I know husband works with the US a lot but he's mostly been talking about Dallas and I wasn't super keen on moving there (could be a load of prejudice but I don't think someone who hates Luxembourg because it is not enough like Sweden should be moving to Texas)...but now there seems to be a NYC option and that sounds a lot more appealing.
If we do go, I will definitely be viewing it as a money spending as opposed to money saving adventure so we will get whatever it takes to make life easier and better... au pair, nanny, large apartment in a fancy place etc.
I don't think they can offer my husband a package that would offset the loss of my relatively high salary but that's really not necessary as I am dying to take time off and we are not running a tight budget.
We have been saving over 100 000$ per year for years now as we are both well paid and rather Mustachian in our ways (no car, live way below our means in terms of housing, travel etc).
Even if my husband's entire NY package gets blown on maintaining sanity in NYC it will probably still be worth it. I think in some ways knowing that it is impossible for the offer to be financially better than both of us working right here is letting me focus on quality of life questions. Because we are earning a massive fortune here compared to what we could realistically ever earn in Sweden and yet I am quite sure that we'd have had a nicer life there.
When we were just starting out with our stash I was very focused on how much money we can save, by now I am a little bit tired of it all. We have saved a lot. Husband's career is moving upward. My job is as secure as they get. At this point I really mostly want to explore other locations and other set ups (I am dying to be a stay at home mom, I am loving the whole US idea as I am assuming that the visa I get will not allow me to work, which will remove the guilt factor (my husband is Swedish so to him a stay at home wife is a foreign concept, everyone should want to work) so yey, bring it on!)
My husband will probably want to move back as for him this is a networking opportunity that he can then capitalize on back here. I will also still need to go back to my job at some point as I still need to work for about 5 years in order to qualify for a very generous pension. It owuld be a stupid move to leave the job before I have qualified for that, simply as a matter of precaution. I am a civil servant of the European Union, it is a veryprivileged position to be in , it can't hurt to be entitled to these benefits when I turn 65, even if I forego actually working until that age.
We own property here that we would probably keep and rent out (even if I'd love to sell it as we will need larger when we come back, but this market here is so crazy it may be smarter to wait it out and sell when we want to buy bigger).
Internet tells me that the salary for his position in NYC is 150-190 000$ so surely they will not offer less than that for someone who is supposed to drag over a wife and three kids? That would surely be enough to live a normal life there, especially knowing it is temporary so we have no long term concerns such as college for kids and/or job loss, if he finds himself out of a job we just go back to my job and our numerous assets in Europe.
Ah, now I am even more excited, I can't wait to hear back on what exactly they would be offering. To be honest my main concern now is that we would have to go before the baby is born so I might have a clash with the dreaded healthcare almost right away.
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(could be a load of prejudice but I don't think someone who hates Luxembourg because it is not enough like Sweden should be moving to Texas)
You are correct.
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(could be a load of prejudice but I don't think someone who hates Luxembourg because it is not enough like Sweden should be moving to Texas)
You are correct.
Hahaha. Yup. Not to mention that Dallas is car centric. You'll have a much easier time getting around in NYC.
I lived in NYC for years, but I was doing the roommate thing in Queens. No real advice on how much the fancy life would cost there. I would do a little research on the cost of nannies and a big apartment in your desired neighborhoods, and what your post tax income would be after you get the offer. NYC can be affordable, but if you plan to go all out, you can eat up $150k quickly.
To me quality of life is all about how many things there are to do, how spontaneous you can be when deciding what to do on a given day, how easy it is to get to places without a car
NYC is great for all of that! I would second the person who recommended visiting first. Would his job be willing to send y'all on a business trip there before relocating?
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Ah, now I am even more excited, I can't wait to hear back on what exactly they would be offering. To be honest my main concern now is that we would have to go before the baby is born so I might have a clash with the dreaded healthcare almost right away.
Please don't worry quite so much about healthcare. The US actually has really good quality healthcare. It's just that if you don't/your spouse doesn't have a good job then it's super expensive/unaffordable. So, for some people, the US healthcare system really sucks. However, this is not your situation at all. If your husband has a "good job" then you and your family should definitely have access to a good healthcare.
(Edited: because grammar is hard.)
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Speaking to the healthcare issues as someone in NYC who has health problems... it's actually a fantastic place to live if you need medical care and have money/decent insurance. (If you want someone who understands US healthcare to check out the insurance plan in advance, I'm happy to take a look. But I'd be shocked if a high-paying job didn't offer decent insurance.) Some of the best hospitals in the world are in NYC and there are tons and tons of doctors and medical facilities to choose from. You can get appointments for just about anything (specialists, MRIs, etc.) within a couple of days. The longest I've ever had to wait for an appointment was under 10 days, and that was to see the head of a specialty surgery department at a top hospital. I've gotten next-day appointments for things like MRIs and a specialist type of neurologist.
Basically: U.S. healthcare sucks because of the inequality in the system, but you'll be in the privileged part of the system. You'll have to pay a bit more for insurance/deductibles than you're used to, but it's balanced by how much lower our income taxes are. And often the employer will pay a lot of it (my last job paid about 65%, the one before that paid 75%).
ETA: also, NYC is one of the most liberal/progressive places in the US, so I wouldn't worry about being a socialist snowflake ;-) In my voting precinct in the last presidential election Trump got 1% of the vote.
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But is it safe to assume that whatever insurance he gets would cover me for a pregnancy that already exists now? How much would a simple delivery cost (I've had two easy deliveries with no epidural so I am hoping also this one will just slide out)? My insurance would cover up to 10000$ but for more they'd say tough luck, no one forced you to give birth there, this is enough to give birth anywhere in Europe.
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Oh my goodness, given your specific details, I would move to NYC in a heartbeat! I visited NYC for the first time last summer and I absolutely fell in love with it. It is truly like no other place I have ever been, and I've traveled a fair bit. I didn't think I would like the crowds and city noise because I prefer nature and quiet generally, but I was completely enthralled. There is SO MUCH to do there, and Central Park would fulfill any nature longing. For your spontaneity it would be ideal. We did pick up a rental car in Manhattan since our visit was part of a larger trip driving all the way up to Maine. After that experience, well, you certainly don't want or need a car in NYC! Also, it is a very progressive place, and I say that coming from California. I say that in a good way, not a bad way, especially given what you said about your feelings on the matter. Aside from MAYBE San Antonio or Austin, you would definitely do well to avoid Texas...as would I. ;)
Honestly after our visit last year I totally looked at apartments and schools...I loved it that much. Unfortunately it's not practical for us with our specific careers at this point, but I look forward to an extended visit someday.
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But is it safe to assume that whatever insurance he gets would cover me for a pregnancy that already exists now? How much would a simple delivery cost (I've had two easy deliveries with no epidural so I am hoping also this one will just slide out)? My insurance would cover up to 10000$ but for more they'd say tough luck, no one forced you to give birth there, this is enough to give birth anywhere in Europe.
The cost will depend on your insurance. For my insurance I believe I would not pay anything out of pocket for childbirth. Things like surgery, hospital stays etc. are 100% covered for me. On a less-good plan, you might pay a few thousand. Insurance plans will have maximum amounts you'll be asked to pay, so you'll know up front, for example, that you can't be billed more than $xxxx a year no matter what happens (for me that number is $2,000, with another plan it might be $10,000; they'll tell you when you sign up). So even if you contract Ebola while giving birth to triplets, and then everyone else in the family catches your Ebola and you need to go live in a special facility where the nurses wear hazmat suits, you would not pay more than that number. :-)
As far as I know any insurance plan you signed up for would have to cover your pregnancy/birth. Just like if I get a new job with new insurance they have to pay for my migraine medication, asthma medication, etc. The ACA law (Affordable Care Act) fixed a lot of loopholes, and NY has even more laws protecting consumers/patients, so a lot of the problems you may have heard about (like 'pre-existing conditions') are not a problem now.
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All plans under the ACA need to cover pregnancy and child birth. Any semi decent employer plan will too. Pregnant women are also eligible for additional health insurance options if you're uninsured, but the employer plan should cover it.
One thing to keep in mind with US healthcare: always double check. Verify your benefits, covered procedures, in network doctors, out of pocket max, etc. Check things with the insurance company and the doctors. Get things in writing.
One big difference to look at is whether you get an option between an HMO and a PPO. HMO's will have more standard, predictable costs but a limited network requiring referrals to specialists. A PPO has higher potential costs, but a more flexible network and specialist policy.
Whenever you get details, you should post any questions you have!
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My answer would be a resounding YEEEESSS!!! DOOOO IT!!! But that's just me. You may want to ask yourself, what excites you?
If a move to NYC with your family sounds exciting there's your answer. Of course there are things you have to think about and factor, just as you would in any situation that requires significant change. It's worth mentioning that the school system in NYC can be challenging, so you may want to assess what the cost of private school would be.
Life is short. Make it beautiful. Have this adventure while you can :)
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I lived in NYC all my life. I would say Yes do it, especially since it's only 2-3 yrs so you have nothing to lose as you will be able to go back anyway. Life is short it's something you may regret not doing years down the line. You can also consider NYC a base for traveling around the rest of the US.
Health insurance should be no problem with a big company and high paying job. My last company covers 90% of the premiums and the insurance was easy to use and covered everything. As others said the issues lie with self-employed people or people working in small companies who may not have a big wealthy corporation to subsidize their health insurance costs.
I would 2nd Brooklyn as a good place to live if you don't want to be directly in all the action. Live in a neighborhood bordering Manhattan you'll be able to get spectacular views of the manhattan and Brooklyn still has the big city feel and amenities, but a little less crowded and calmer depending on the neighborhood you choose. Overall it's a very short commute,15-30 minutes to manhattan by subway or you can always get an UBER/Taxi. NYC is a city that doesn't sleep so it's noisy and packed with people all day and night, so thus i'd choose to live a little outside of manhattan where it's more residential, yet still walkable to many things like bars, restaurants and shopping.
NYC is fast paced, so definitely be careful if hauling around 3 kids on your own, not recommended. Kids can get lost in the crowds or subway doors can close on you with your kid still on the train or kids can run into the street with fast moving cars. Be alert when walking outside and crossing streets, a lot of aggressive drivers out there especially taxi's and they don't always yield to pedestrians.
I disagree that public schools are bad here. I went to public school in a middle income neighborhood and so did all my friends and we turned out fine. Especially since you have the means to live in a high income neighborhood, the schools there will be more than adequate, all the good schools are in the richer neighborhoods. I'd actually research the public schools in the neighborhood first before deciding where to live, if going private then that doesn't matter at all. In NYC Free public school is available for all starting at 4 yrs old.
I think a full time nanny can set you back $2500-$3500 a month. But maybe you can get by with a part time nanny or helper as you will have the 2 older kids in school.
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I just realised it's the weekend now so it will take a few days before husband hears more on the kind of package he could expect.
I've been researching prices and while it is obviously expensive, it doesn't even feel so bad if I compare to Luxembourg. Because convenience (living near a supermarket, school, train etc) costs an effin fortune here as well. I feel we could find a suitable apartment for 3500-4500$ and that is only marginally more expensive than here for a comparable place. A 3 bedroom apartment across from us recently rented out for 3500$ in one afternoon. And this is not even some kind of a particularly posh area, we are the poorer side of the fanciest suburb (if you can call something a suburb when there is no "urb" to speak of).
A full time nanny would cost us about 2500€ (2800$) here so that too is not too different, and we wouldn't need a full time nanny as I'd be home, part time would be more than enough.
Still, I definitely see how it wouldn't take long to burn through a 150k salary but I am hoping that he would be getting some housing and schooling allowances too. That seems to be the norm for a lot of expat contracts
There's a lot of people here in Luxembourg who end up living in residences that would be difficult for a mortal to afford simply because their company is picking up the tab.
It's a major pet peeve for those of us who have high incomes but would need to really stretch our budgets to afford to live in a fancy mansion that a lot of companies seem to casually cover, sometimes for not particularly senior staff. I have a friend who is an executive at a major company who frequently complains about this. Housing and private schools are super expensive here and if you're paying out of pocket for them you need an enormous amount of disposable income. But a huge number of companies bring people over on some fairly modest salaries but cover housing and private schools, making these people comparatively better off than most self-paying executives.
I am strongly hoping that husband's company employs a similar policy and will fork over a large amount of money for housing once they click on "3 kids" in their system, haha.
I'm a bit sad that this didn't come up a few months ago as I wouldn't have gotten pregnant but well...my anxiety is slowly firing up and I am wondering how on Earth would I manage having a new born baby and the two big boys all by myself in NYC. Husband's company claims to offer 10 days of paternity leave to fathers in the US (fun fact, they didn't have that here until it became a legal requirement last year), I hope they're not lying about that.
Then I also started becoming paranoid that husband might want to stay in the end (he is such a high flyer , I imagine there are decent odds the NY office is gonna wanna keep him and he would probably prefer that as he can achieve so much more somewhere where you don't need to speak French to get the best clients) ....but I don't know, is it really horrible to live in NYC with a well paid husband, it's probably not.
I think we will go for it if it will sound good once it's all detailed out (both in terms of the package and also what it means for husband's career) ...unless we get cold feet once we announce this to our families who, I imagine, will be completely devastated to hear this.
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It it horrible to live in NY with a high paying husband? What kind of question is that? Come ooooon! as we would say in NYC. I guess I'm biased because I'm a transplated (exiled) NYer but I'm green with jealousy. NYC is the place to be for someone described as a "high flyer" - it's amazing and the sky's the limit.
As blingwrx said - don't be afraid of public schools especially in 'nice' areas of the city. Do your research but there are some great ones. I'm also the proud product of NY public schools. And as s/he said public school is free from age 4 onwards.
I don't think you have anything to worry about. You speak English so you already have a huge head start of most other immigrants in NY. Then you have your husband's career and great salary plus expat package. You'll be fine and you'll probably love it.
I was trying to describe NYC to some Italian friends the other day and what I'd say is you can be anything or do anything there. It's the opposite of provincial. Here in the city I live in in Italy, people stare at you if you leave the house with wet hair or wear flip flops on the street. There, you could leave the house naked and people would barely notice. It's very live and let live but people are also allowed to be quite eccentric.
And, as others have said, you can use NY as a springboard to visit other parts of the US -especially as you have never been there before. The US is a huge, diverse place and there is so much to see and experience.
BTW - I doubt your families would be devastated if you moved to NYC. I assume from what you said that your family of origin lives in Sweden? They still have to fly to see you and this would just a longer flight. But then they'd have a free place to stay in the most amazing city in the world (OK I'm biased but many, many people agree with me!) My European husband visited NYC for the first time when he met me and he loved it so much that he wanted to move there immediately. Before this he had no interest in visiting NYC and always said that he wasn't a big city person. Unfortunately, though, we just don't have the incomes to support a move to NY. He still talks about it wistfully though and loves our visits there to see family.
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Oh my god @havregryn -- what an opportunity. I've spent a fair amount of time in NYC for work (apartment in Brooklyn, public transport to Manhattan) and love it. If you are a city lover you will be in heaven. DO IT!
:)
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I did something similar to a different big US city (although I've also visited NY plenty of times - and my comments apply just as much to NY). While it was "interesting" culturally, I'm not sure I'd recommend it, especially if children are involved. US cities can be unpleasant and complicated to live in for various reasons (noisier/dirtier than European cities, generally feel less safe, public transport is much worse, etc.). If you aren't wedded to your current company, you can probably find similarly paying jobs within Europe - or even beyond Europe - in much more pleasant cities - although that depends on the exact type of work you're in. (Think places like Singapore, Switzerland, in some careers London, and so on.)
I am assuming that the visa I get will not allow me to work, which will remove the guilt factor (my husband is Swedish so to him a stay at home wife is a foreign concept, everyone should want to work) so yey, bring it on!)
It depends: in many cases spouses can get a permit to work. It depends on the exact Visa category, but for secondment (L-1 Visa most likely) it's probably possible.
I'm a bit sad that this didn't come up a few months ago as I wouldn't have gotten pregnant but well...my anxiety is slowly firing up and I am wondering how on Earth would I manage having a new born baby and the two big boys all by myself in NYC. Husband's company claims to offer 10 days of paternity leave to fathers in the US (fun fact, they didn't have that here until it became a legal requirement last year), I hope they're not lying about that.
Be careful: people born in the US are automatically put under US citizenship, which afflicts them with US taxes and bureaucracy for life. Getting rid of this is expensive and painful (I know a few people going through this process, and it's not fun).
BTW - I doubt your families would be devastated if you moved to NYC. I assume from what you said that your family of origin lives in Sweden? They still have to fly to see you and this would just a longer flight.
Lol.
Flying to the US is many times longer (7-8 hours, overnight in one direction, plus timezones), many times more expensive (At least 800 vs 100 USD for flights), more bureacratic which also makes it more expensive (requires passports, and an ESTA), you have to go through US immigration (which can be highly unpleasant, compared to effectively borderless within Europe), different currencies, etc. A weekend trip within Europe is reasonable, a weekend trip to the USA is not.
And you can also drive (potentially with ferries) from Sweden to Belgium (although flying is generally still the easier path).
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flipboard - I get that NYC is further away but it's New York - nowhere else compares. Most Europeans I know are head over heels for the place.
On the same note, you can't compare any other US city to NYC. The closest comparisons would be maybe Chicago or Philly but they are completely different in pretty much every aspect.
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3500 for a nice 3 bed in manhattan is not realistic. That is what a nice one bed costs. Nyc is a survival of the fittest environment ie the fittest being those with the most money. You will be fine because you seem to understand you are going to have to spend serious coin although I think you are probably underestimating how much it will really take. Check out the costs of private school for example.
FYI I have lived in NYC and BK for more than 20 years. Yes i live cheaply but I am not looking for a convenient life and am supporting no one but myself. Not saying it’s not possible to live cheaply here but it’s not possible for the kind of life the poster wants.
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Also a salary of $150K is NOT high here. I think I just saw an article to be in 1% salary here was closer to $450.
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Be careful: people born in the US are automatically put under US citizenship, which afflicts them with US taxes and bureaucracy for life. Getting rid of this is expensive and painful (I know a few people going through this process, and it's not fun).
Yes, actually I was thinking about this, I don't feel we'd be doing a baby who will otherwise be born into entitlement to Swedish and Luxembourgish citizenship (some of the most powerful passports on Earth https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php ) much of a favor by making him/her an American citizen. Ironically, if we could make the oldest boy American that would be potentially appreciated.
Actually, there is more administrative drama that could come from this. My income is exempt from taxation in the EU but if I have to disclose it to the IRS (and I guess I might have to if my husband files as married?), it's income like any other. I would get 5 months of maternity benefits at full pay, meaning about 40 000$ that I do not need to report to any national tax administration in the EU...but the EU law cannot help me if I find myself liable to pay tax to a non-member. And I can't defer my maternity leave to start later, it's the first 5 months after the baby is born. So I'm not sure we want to be in a non-EU tax jurisdiction for that period. Because I think the US will want to see tax paid on that money and given that it will be added on top of my husband's generous package, lol, I imagine most of it will go poof.
I think in the end the most weight to the decision will come from how useful husband will feel this is for his career. He is on the partner track here so it may be a hit or miss career wise to do this. Knowing him he'd do stellar over there too but it's up to him. I would love to get out of Luxembourg and my job for a while and I guess I can suck up handing over some of my maternity payments to the tax man if this will be really good for my husband and if I will get to live in a vibrant city for a while.
Because realistically if this option is available now I doubt he can stall it enough for me to have time to have this baby and collect all this stuff here first...but who knows. I don't think things change so fast in large corporations, his skills will still be valuable on the other side of the pond in a year.
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I think we wouldn't need private school, the kids are small, and they're not going to be staying in the American educational system long enough for anything to really matter, so all I need is a school that feels safe and functional. I imagine we could find a public school like that, even if we had to pay quite a bit for housing.
But in any case we are not stupid, we are not going to move overseas to be poor. If they don't offer something that will after detailed consideration check out as fully viable, we're not going anywhere.
I mean, the 150k figure is the low end of what salary is supposed to be for his role, I would expect quite a bit of expat allowances ON TOP of that to think that this is going to work. Especially if I am going to get my maternity payments gnawed on by Uncle Sam lol, there definitely needs to be some serious money offered there.
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3500 for a nice 3 bed in manhattan is not realistic. That is what a nice one bed costs. Nyc is a survival of the fittest environment ie the fittest being those with the most money. You will be fine because you seem to understand you are going to have to spend serious coin although I think you are probably underestimating how much it will really take. Check out the costs of private school for example.
FYI I have lived in NYC and BK for more than 20 years. Yes i live cheaply but I am not looking for a convenient life and am supporting no one but myself. Not saying it’s not possible to live cheaply here but it’s not possible for the kind of life the poster wants.
Manhattan apartments 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom in an area you could fit kids And maintain a quality of life being described will be $5000+/month. 1 bedroom 2 bath would be about $3500+. In each instance, we’re talking about tiny Apartments. Same nice areas with 1500 sqft will be in the 7-10k per month range.
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To be honest I was looking at Brooklyn as someone suggested, I haven't really given this much thought at this stage, now I see that husbands workplace would be in Manhattan so I guess between me wanting vibrant urbanity and a reasonable commute maybe should be looking at that. Tiny is fine, Stockholm is also a place where you live with kids in tiny apartments and we wouldn't even be taking most of our stuff with us, I am sure we could do minimal living for 2-3 years, especially in a city where there are things to do outside of home. But as said, for this to become reality the company will need to be able to offer a package that will guarantee us comfort, otherwise the incentive to go is not there. Sure I hate Luxembourg, but I think I prefer being wealthy and saving a fortune here to feeling destitute in Manhattan.
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3500 for a nice 3 bed in manhattan is not realistic. That is what a nice one bed costs.
I mean, if you're talking midtown or UWS, yeah, $3500 is not realistic. If you're talking upper Manhattan, it's not too hard to find.
I don't know who you're talking to that's spending $3500 on a 1BR... LOL. I'm in a very nice 1BR in Manhattan for a lot less than that.
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But as I mentioned previously, we really don't need to be saving money. I mean, I know it sounds terribly unMustachian to even think it but I feel it would be unrealistic to expect a single income for a family of 5 to buy us both comfort and savings and our overall financial situation can completely absorb a 2-3 year adventure where no money is being saved but fun memories are being created. We have over 700k in assets and secure careers, to live in Sweden we are coast-FI as is. And husband has no intention to retire ever, let alone early, and I can take up to 12 years unpaid leave of absence from my job. We are completely clear for running a positive zero having a fun time in NYC if we want to.
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If you can afford it, get an apartment within walking distance to your husband's work. Then riding the subway will be optional, something he will do very occasionally or never if he doesn't like it, as opposed to relying on it every day. Some routes are extremely crowded during rush hour. For example, I have to leave the house about 30m earlier that I would otherwise to avoid the worst part of the rush hour but still sometimes have to skip a train or two before I can get in. A morning rush hour can ruin your mood for the rest of the day. And don't even get me started on train delays and line closures. BTW many (most?) subway stops don't have elevators and are difficult to use with small kids. With kids, I would use Uber/Lyft for getting around within the city.
You mentioned your husband would work in Manhattan. If it's downtown Manhattan, you can check out the Battery Park City/Tribeca area which is one of the nicest and quietest neighborhoods in Manhattan and has a lot of expensive residential high rise buildings. Though living there on 150K per year for a family with three kids may be a little difficult financially. Also, a many apartment buildings near Wall St which is more crowded but not too bad. If the job is located in Midtown, there are many apartments there as well, though I'm not a big fan of that part of the city because it's overcrowded. If it's Hudson Yards, for example, you may even consider renting an apartment in one of the new buildings near the ferry terminal in Hoboken, NJ and taking the ferry to work from there... cheaper and no NY City tax. The ferry is more expensive than the train but a much nicer commute.
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flipboard - I get that NYC is further away but it's New York - nowhere else compares. Most Europeans I know are head over heels for the place.
On the same note, you can't compare any other US city to NYC. The closest comparisons would be maybe Chicago or Philly but they are completely different in pretty much every aspect.
Certainly plenty of people find New York to be an interesting place to visit (one of many, I should add - lots of other interesting places and cities exist in this world - places like Tokyo, Shanghai, Taipei, Seoul have just as much if not more to offer when it comes to "big city life"). I haven't met many people who'd actually consider living there though, and I've met more who have moved away from there for various reasons related to quality of life.
And sure, from an american perspective new york might seem unique. From an outside perspective however, it shares most of the same issues that other US cities suffer from, which overall makes living there a chore. Yes there are some nice things - but for early family life it's probably the last on most people's list.
Actually, there is more administrative drama that could come from this. My income is exempt from taxation in the EU but if I have to disclose it to the IRS (and I guess I might have to if my husband files as married?), it's income like any other. I would get 5 months of maternity benefits at full pay, meaning about 40 000$ that I do not need to report to any national tax administration in the EU...but the EU law cannot help me if I find myself liable to pay tax to a non-member. And I can't defer my maternity leave to start later, it's the first 5 months after the baby is born. So I'm not sure we want to be in a non-EU tax jurisdiction for that period. Because I think the US will want to see tax paid on that money and given that it will be added on top of my husband's generous package, lol, I imagine most of it will go poof.
Yeah this is going to get very complicated, and you'll probably want to hire a *specialist* tax advisor (which won't be cheap) - most normal US tax advisors will have no idea what they're doing in your situation. Some people are able to be taxed as non-residents for the first six months of living in the US, which would avoid tax on non-US income, but it's a complicated part of US tax law. You don't have to file taxes jointly, but it could easily make overall taxes lower, and you'll probably both be subject to the same residency determination either way.
But as I mentioned previously, we really don't need to be saving money. I mean, I know it sounds terribly unMustachian to even think it but I feel it would be unrealistic to expect a single income for a family of 5 to buy us both comfort and savings and our overall financial situation can completely absorb a 2-3 year adventure where no money is being saved but fun memories are being created. We have over 700k in assets and secure careers, to live in Sweden we are coast-FI as is. And husband has no intention to retire ever, let alone early, and I can take up to 12 years unpaid leave of absence from my job. We are completely clear for running a positive zero having a fun time in NYC if we want to.
This approach does make perfect sense. I guess the main thing to think about is if you'd actually be happy in NY - I'd strongly suggest at least doing a 1-week trip to experience what it's actually like. Compared to quiet Luxembourg life you might be completely utterly horrified by how life works over there. It's one thing to want a bit more excitement, it's another to experience an american city.
Not to be too morbid, but since you mention being pregnant, this might be a statistic worth looking at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_maternal_mortality_rate
Interestingly luxembourg is also quite low, so you're not making things much worse by going to the US... but it's possible to do much better.
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One more thing to consider: European financial institutions *hate* dealing with people with US tax-residency (because the US government wants to stick their fingers in everywhere). Some will close your accounts as soon as they discover you're in the US, others close accounts once you become US tax-resident. It varies by company and country, but it's something many people have to deal with.
And on taxes: if you hold non-US domiciled mutual funds or ETF's, the taxation is horrible because of some protectionist PFIC taxes in the US. And if you decide to sell, you'll be charged capital gains relative to the price when you bought the security, which includes gains from before you arrived in the US. They really try to screw people over as much as possible. (So ideally you'd want to sell all your funds before moving, and buy US funds immediately after - but then you might have to pay capital gains in Luxembourg, IDK what that's like there.)
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I worked in and around NYC for more than 25 years. Here’s my advice: check the financial package being offered to you. Does it pay for housing in the city and private school for the kids? Living in NYC is invigorating; there is always something to do. But a commute of any length can be absolute hell. I lived less than 20 miles from Manhattan, but my round-trip commute was 3 hours on public transportation, door-to-door. It’s no way to live.
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I agree with everyone who's saying to check the relocation package. If your husband's company will pay for housing and private school, then living in NYC will be easy. I've lived here for 9 years & have a 3yo, and I find those two things the toughest parts of living here. We used to live in Manhattan but found we couldn't "afford" that once we had a kid. We now live in Queens and currently have a $100k life; of that, $36k is for housing, and $30k is for preschool and childcare. That cost will go down significantly when my child starts universal pre-K for 4-year-olds next year. We don't have a car, and we don't pay for a nanny.
I would agree that a 3-bedroom south of 100th Street in Manhattan at market rate is at least $5-6000, and there's no ceiling to how much you can pay. Tuition for Manhattan private school is $50k a year. Inner BK these days is about similar. You can see why we got out of there even with our "high" incomes.
Our neighborhood is a 30-min commute to midtown by subway and about 50-60min to downtown. There are multiple grocery stories, restaurants, delis, pharmacies, etc within a 3 block radius of our apartment. Lots of kids, multiple playgrounds within walking distance, and decent public schools. I'd say a nice 3-bedroom here rents for around $4k. Trade off: there isn't really any green space in this area. Also, there isn't the cache of living in Manhattan or BK.
Depending on how obedient your kids are, I think you could definitely walk around NYC neighborhoods with them. It'd be really hard to maneuver all 3 of them through the subway by yourself, though. We take our 3yo on the subway all the time, but it takes twice as long to get anywhere even with the one kid. I feel that 3 is an especially tough age for the subway. You can just wear a baby in a carrier and go. And by the time a kid is 5-6yo, they (I assume) can walk like a normal person. If you hire a part-time nanny, the two of you could probably maneuver all 3 kids through the subway. My kid has been holding onto the poles in crowded trains since he was 1.5 years old. (People sometimes but not always give their seat to a toddler here.)
If money were no object, I'd live on the Upper West Side in the 70s with kids, for the proximity to Central Park and Riverside Park. Without kids, I'd choose Flatiron.
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When I accepted my expat assignment to the UAE I hit up HR with a long list of expat benefits for negotiation. Most of which I managed to get. Your husband may want to approach the negotiation with a wish list too, and then drop a couple of the less important items through negotiation
My list included
- Housing and utilities paid for
- Full Medical Insurance (for DW and I)
- Payments into my Australian retirement fund (in fact they pay me an allowance that I invest outside Australia for tax reasons)
- Annual flights home in business class for both DW and I (they agreed to economy. I asked for 2 flights per year, they agreed to 1)
- Relocation flights in business class for DW and I (they agreed to economy)
- Additional leave days for traveling to and from australia (we agreed on 4 extra days of leave per year)
- A car
- DW’s visa costs (of course mine was covered)
- I would have asked for school fees (but don’t have kids)
- Right of return to my old employer or a severance package
- Life insurance
- Furniture relocation for all our belongings (they won’t pay to return my furniture to australia if I resign).
- Pet relocation (I fought hard to get this one, but ended up not moving our dog to the UAE, as my parents adopted him).
I am sure there are other benefits people manage to get. I didn’t ask for tax advice to be paid for by the company but should have.... but of course less important in the UAE compared to US.
Tax is something to look into very carefully as posters have mentioned above.
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Tbh, I am really becoming quite concerned that I won't be able to stay affiliated with my job in order to receive my parental leave payments (and that is not really so much a matter of continuous income as it is for vesting my pension) and become a US tax resident. I don't think my job will let me be in the US while in active duty (yeah that's what they call it even though I'm not exactly military, I am a bureaucrat), even if I am not expected to come to the office as I am at home caring for the kids.
So this is a point to research before I get too excited. Ultimately I will not die if I have to go off "active duty" but it will have a negative effect on my long term planning (I intend to FIRE once I have the 10 years of service I need, parental leave counts, personal leave of absence that may be the only administrative solution that would let me reside in the US does not...so this would then add 2-3 years to my timeline and that makes me uneasy).
I think that if everything else will sound great this would not be a dealbreaker, but I also think that this is enough for the whole thing to have to be really spectacular (both in terms of the package and husband's career development) to be worthwhile. So I guess I need to wait to hear what it is they would be offering.
Just one more question, when Google tells me that the public transport commute from a random address (not looking at anything in particular, I was just clicking on random stuff I googled) to husband's office would take for example 28 minutes, how confident can I be in this estimate? I am asking because in Luxembourg you would generally need to multiply the number Google hands out with two to have a more realistic idea and that is one of my biggest pet peeves here.
So can I assume that this commute would in fact be 28 minutes on most days or is it a fairy tale like in Luxembourg?
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As others have pointed out, if you are commuting by subway during rush hour, it can be packed and the commute can take longer. My old commute from upper Manhattan to Midtown took 30 minutes on the 1 train on a weekend or at midnight. But at 8.30 on a weekday I sometimes had to wait for the third train to jam myself on which added time to my commute.
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Google Maps commute times are the best-case scenario - they're assuming you will leave at the exact moment that would make your trip most efficient, and there are no problems along the way. It is effectively the minimum time it can take, not an average or typical time. And it's not including things like waiting for the elevator in your apartment building and the office, so that can add a couple of minutes on both ends. I'd do something like "add 5 minutes per trip plus 5 minutes per train line" for a more accurate commute where I live, but it would depend on a lot of factors like which train lines and what time of day it is.
BTW, if it hasn't come up elsewhere, avoid the L train in any potential commute. They are doing major work on the tunnel between Brooklyn and Manhattan for at least another year.
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Be careful: people born in the US are automatically put under US citizenship, which afflicts them with US taxes and bureaucracy for life. Getting rid of this is expensive and painful (I know a few people going through this process, and it's not fun).
Yes, actually I was thinking about this, I don't feel we'd be doing a baby who will otherwise be born into entitlement to Swedish and Luxembourgish citizenship (some of the most powerful passports on Earth https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php ) much of a favor by making him/her an American citizen. Ironically, if we could make the oldest boy American that would be potentially appreciated.
I think your child born abroad would still be entitled to Luxembourgish and Swedish citizenship.
From https://guichet.public.lu/fr/citoyens/citoyennete/nationalite-luxembourgeoise/possession-automatique/effet-loi.html
"Dans certaines situations, la nationalité luxembourgeoise est attribuée par le seul effet de la loi, c’est-à-dire de manière automatique, sans intervention de la part de la personne concernée. [...] Est Luxembourgeois le mineur né d’un parent lui-même Luxembourgeois au moment de la naissance ou de l’établissement de son lien de filiation avec l’enfant."
I agree that whether additional US citizenship is a benefit or a burden is tricky. Among other considerations, you cannot renounce US citizenship on your child's behalf, and if they decide the renunciation is motivated by the desire to avoid taxation, your child could be barred from ever entering the US.
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I've lived in NYC for the last 9 years, but I do not have kids. In your situation, I'd say go for it if the money works out! NYC is a great place to live if you:
1. Love to walk/take public transportation.
2. Have lots of money.
3. Take advantage of what NYC has to offer.
4. Are very high energy.
5. Do not need ample personal space.
6. Can be aggressive in daily life. Little things like getting a seat on the subway or keeping your spot in a restaurant line necessitates a very go-getter on the ball attitude.
There will be culture shock I'm sure, people from other cities in the US experience culture shock moving to NYC, but there are also many European transplants like yourself! I imagine there are many meetups specifically for Euro transplants who want friends/contacts who really *get* the experience. To lessen the shock, you could even try to live in an area of NY that has lots of European immigrants- my neighborhood in Queens (Astoria) is like that as are many areas of Brooklyn.
Life in NYC is hectic and exhausting and expensive. If you crave the amenities of a big city but you also enjoy lots of easy access to nature, convenience, and a laid back lifestyle---you should look elsewhere. If spending a couple hours on the train a day and battling crowds on the street with kids in tow sounds doable to you, you'll probably enjoy it immensely!
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3500 for a nice 3 bed in manhattan is not realistic. That is what a nice one bed costs.
I mean, if you're talking midtown or UWS, yeah, $3500 is not realistic. If you're talking upper Manhattan, it's not too hard to find.
I don't know who you're talking to that's spending $3500 on a 1BR... LOL. I'm in a very nice 1BR in Manhattan for a lot less than that.
I don't spend anywhere near that nor do people I know. But what the OP wants is prime NYC, not the wilds of upper manhattan or outerboros. Also, the average rent for a NYC apartment is $4188. So yeah, a lot of people are probably paying $3500 or so for a 1 bed.
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ny/manhattan/
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Do they call Harlem Upper Manhattan now?
Apparently. I'm a five-minute walk from Central Park, aka "the wilds of Upper Manhattan"!
The UWS, UES, and SW Harlem are beautiful, convenient neighborhoods and not nearly as expensive as @brooklynmoney seems to think Manhattan should be.
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I think the general consensus seems to be that if we can be sure we can afford someone to help out with the kids and a decent place to live we should be fine.
We are really not super precious on the housing front, we are in a 2bedroom apartment now and with the 3rd kid coming I feel we will need to eventually upgrade, but we cosleep with babies until about 2-3 so this is not an urgent need. Technically we could do with a 2 bedroom but an extra bedroom would be good as we could have people come over. I imagine a long list of my friends would instantly jump at the prospect of a free stay in NYC in exchange for keeping me company and helping out with the brood. We don't need it to be big, we wouldn't be shipping any of our stuff (because husband owns too many books to ship for a 3 year stay and our furniture is second hand and IKEA, it is nothing that we can't instantly replace and then donate when moving back)...I mean housing wise we are definitely used to the idea that the kind of urban I like also means small and expensive housing, Stockholm is the same.
We are definitely not going to be shocked to discover that we can't live in a 5 bedroom house with a backyard in the middle of Manhattan.
I think the biggest luxury we are going to need is going to be an elevator. As I am really not a princess, but the prospect of having to drag three kids and groceries up a few flights of stairs is where I draw the line. Especially since I expect stairs related to using the subway.
I would actually prefer to avoid private school. A large part of my contempt for Luxembourg comes from overexposure to wealthy anti-vaxx housewives who fly their hairdressers in from London. I fear that by sending my kids to a private school in Manhattan I might not get the break from this I am dreaming of. My kids need to be able to handle some reality, they are going to grow up privileged either way.
I am quite cynical on the school quality issue as I grew up in a third world war torn country in a town of about 2000 dirt poor people. The school I attended would probably not even legally qualify as a school in the developed world of today. I had cold and uninvolved parents. Still I am here now at 35 whining about my prestigious job, married to a guy who is speeding to make partner with the big 4 and I am casually contemplating if I should be living in Luxembourg or Manhattan. And how come, well, I obviously won some major genetic lottery that made it easy for me to acquire a ridiculous amount of knowledge and skills despite the conditions I was born into, nothing more to it.
So that tells me that if my kids are smart, they will be fine either way. And if they're not, well, ironically enough they're still going to be fine because the world is the way it is and they're tall white guys with Swedish passports and well to do parents.
So for me to consider putting my kids there a school only has to be safe. Sadly, in Stockholm in poorer areas you can't really feel that is guaranteed so I am not 100% naive on how bad a school can be, but I am confident there are acceptable public schools in NYC too.
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havregyn - I like your attitude. I have NYC friends who are very happy with public school in the Upper West Side and also Chinatown (bilingual Chinese-English elementary school). I'm sure that there are lots of other great public schools in NYC if you do your research.
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My bigger school concern is that if I put my 6 year old in an American school for 3 years, that is it, the only kind of school that he can ever attend in Europe once we're back is a private English speaking school.
And who knows about the 3 year old...he seems quite good at languages for now so at 6 it may not be too late to send him to the public school but meh...it's tough. The school system here is weird. Most daycares are French speaking, meaning the 3 year old is now fluent in French. When he turns 4 he starts preschool and that is then in Luxembourgish (a language completely unlike French, more like German). They speak Luxembourgish until the kids are about 7 and then they start doing the schooling in German. And then by the time they're 10 they start aggresively reintroducing French and by high school everything is mostly in French.
The big boy is not really taking to this at all and we are fully aware that we may need to move him to a school that is in English. If the little boy follows in his footsteps, we are going to be stuck with paying 30-35000€ per year for school, we're probably going to be better off staying in the US then.
Because that would inflate our Luxembourgish expenses to the point where it would no longer really make sense to be here (especially since I actively dislike everything about it).
The reason we are here now is that we get to save a lot and well, inertia. If the savings factor disappears once we need a larger place and paid schooling for kids, meh, I'm out of here.
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Havregryn - three years in an English speaking school will not condemn your oldest to American school forever. What language do you speak at home?
When you return to Luxembourg, your oldest will be 9. My kids go to a heavily immigrant school here in Italy. Kids arrive all the time from Bangladesh, China, the Philippines, various African countries speaking not a word of Italian and within 6 months or so at age 9 they are completely fluent not only in Italian but also in the local dialect. A 9 year old should be able to soak up another language like a sponge.
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Well, now we speak English. I mentioned this before. Our older boy did not respond well to the situation he was born into, where I spoke Croatian to him, father spoke Swedish, husband and I spoke English to each other (I can speak Swedish now but I couldn't when we met, and it was just too difficult to switch....we are both very fluent in English and it takes no particular effort to converse in it whereas making a switch would put quite a cognitive strain on me, had we stayed in Sweden it would have made sense to gradually switch but here in Luxembourg we live in a very English speaking bubble) , the daycare was to be in French and school was to be as described. He was speech delayed and obviously frustrated. He started speaking English (I think between realizing that everyone understands it and Netflix he rightfully concluded that it was the most efficient way to go) and we made the conscious decision to encourage it at the expense of everything else. Of course being overachieving parents we made sure he got plenty of exposure to native educated English and now three years later he thinks of himself as an English speaker with a strong American ring to it (I guess from Netflix or his best friend). I hired a woman who used to be a primary school teacher in I think Minnesota (in the US anyway) to come once a week and work with him so that he develops literacy (I don't know how to teach someone to read in English) and consistence in his accent. At this point he has no language delay, if you compare him to an American boy of his age, but whether his reluctance to speak anything else is normal, that is a whole different story. But obviously he is not going to suffer if he finds himself in NYC. Quite to the contrary, I think we may face some serious challenges once we force him to move back. There is definitely something "wrong" with him when it comes to languages. His current school brought in a specialist to evaluate him and they didn't think he was completely hopeless (he did end up demonstrating some Luxembourgish skills) but there is definitely a major question mark over his ability to thrive in that environment.
The younger boy is acquiring all of the languages at an appropriate speed. Croatian is maybe lacking as it is not often that I am home alone with him, it is usually me and both boys and then English is a must (as the big boy gets very upset otherwise) but he is also fluent in Swedish (we made sure daddy and he have alone time, simply because we think it is way more important for our kids to speak Swedish) and French.
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I still don't think your oldest will be condemned to monolingualism. Immigrants must arrive in Luxembourg all the time not speaking the 3 languages they speak there. Don't they have "French as a second language" (etc etc) courses in public schools? It sounds like he's very stubborn about the language issue. Our kids are biliingual Italian -English (and dialect) and I've had to be very strict about the English at various times since they just didn't see the point in learning it as we live in a totally Italian environment (apart from me). They have strong Italian accents in English and don't write in English at all but you do what you can do as a parent.
My younger one had a severe speech delay at age 3 and a lot of people (including doctors) told me to stop speaking English at home. I didn't listen and took her to lots of different doctors. Turned out that she was deaf. Three operations later she has 98% hearing and at age 7 speaks both languages just fine.
What do Luxembourgish kids speak on the school playground and when playing amongst themselves? What do the majority of local people speak at home? Do your boys play with local friends in your neighborhood? What language do they speak with their local friends?
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That's the thing. Luxembourg is a very international place and that especially applies to the expensive central areas (the only kind we can live in if I want to maintain my car-free existence) . We live in a fancy suburb full of American expats (as American families want to live in suburban houses...most of Scandinavian people want to live in city center, but the reason we don't is that, believe it or not, it would be less convenint to live there (walkable distance is only to designer fashion stores and various landmarks, there's not much in terms of convenience in the city center + some of it is kind of sketchy). We live right between the city proper and this überfancy suburb, school wise we belong to the suburb, public transport wise we belong to the city (it's really the best we could find here and I can't imagine moving, which is why I hate the whole set up so much...we will need a larger place and yet moving 500 meters in the wrong direction completely messes up our life). So my son has a group of about 7-8 friends who all speak English and he doesn't really seem to care much for other kids. According to the teacher, the English speaking kids are not acquiring Luxembourgish as effiiciently as kids who speak for example Turkish or something else at home (because there are so many of them and they can make themselves understood), but she did feel that our boy was particularly stubborn. Apparently, it took more than 6 months before he agreed to ask to go to the bathroom in Luxembourgish.
The thing is that, even assuming we stay here, what's gonna happen is that gradually all of the wealthy English speaking parents are going to move their kids to private schools.It happens a lot because by the time they are about 10, inferior French language skills start taking a toll on academic performance and exam results.I think everyone likes the public school at this age as it is really nice and kids go out a lot and they get exposed to a lot of languages, but it gets waay trickier when they're a bit older.
Obviously I am no educational snob but I do have some concerns about how likely it is that a child who is this disinterested in language at this age could be motivated to excel at something like French at age 10. And potential downsides of having him tormented by French as opposed to letting him develop skills in the STEM area are rather obvious.
My solution to this would be to move back to Sweden where he could learn Swedish and where the system is set up in a much more relaxed manner, allowing him to discover and develop his interests and not forcing him to be academically literate in 3-4 languages even if that clearly isn't his cup of tea.
But my husband is having a very in-love-with-capitalism kind of phase so sadly, a move to Sweden is not on the horizon.
This is actually one of the reasons why NYC might work for us even in the long term, he can go all corporate shark and I could probably live some kind of a hipster dream by becoming some kind of a part time psychoanalyst or doing a PhD in literary theory or something else that the 17 year old me would have imagined as height of human existence. Hell, if I was not too far away from being eligible to receive a pension from the EU once I turn 65 I'd be pushing for this with all I've got.
This way I am mildly skeptical. I'd prefer to be a bit more secure in my own position...I am not stupid, I don't think of my husband as "gonna leave my wife in a midlife crisis" kind of guy but I never saw him as someone who 'd wanna be partner in a megacorp so I prefer to remain cautious....things could turn ugly fast if I found myself divorced in 10-15 years. Knowing that I will get this pension when I turn 65 would probably mean that assets from the divorce would make me very FI so then I'd at least have that.
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I believe you should come to NYC in a heartbeat. It is a fantastic place to work and experience. A 2/3 year stint will be a great addition to your spouse's resume, and it will likely be a worth the experience for you.
For all we know you might fall in love with it enough that you may decide to stay here longer! I know I did. I wanted to move to some nice/quiet midwestern city after a few years at NYC. Well, I am here for good now living in a NYC commutable "suburb" and working in NYC for the foreseeable future!!
There are, however, some practical challenges you should keep in mind!!
1. A $150,000 salary will mean a $9500/month after taxes, health insurance etc if you are NOT saving anything for 401k/HSA etc.
2. Given how taxes work, it will be very inefficient for you to NOT save on 401k/HSA etc. If you set them aside to the tax-optimal amounts (NOT max), your paycheck will be $8500/month. If you act Mustachian and max stuff out, you are quickly down to $7000 to $7500 per month.
---- Yes, Taxes in NYC are a lot ----
3. Spending on healthcare is a lot!! I don't know about your healthcare needs. However, with a baby on the way, I figure you will spend between $5k-$10k on deductible and out of pocket max with an average corporate group plan. Most employer provided health plans have deductibles and OOP Max structured that way. Going forward, with a new baby and young kids, figure on spending $5k/year on healthcare.
--- Yes, the Healthcare system is messed up in US. This will likely be a surprise to you coming from EU. O the + side, US healthcare with a corporate plan is certain to be the highest quality possible in the world, something you likely would prefer with a new child on the way. The “messed up” part of the US healthcare is there is zero “middle of the range option”.
— there are wide variations among health plans. Please ask about you corporate plans deductible, copay, coinsurance and pop max. You will likely have multiple options to choose from. In all the different such corporate plan options I have seen in the past 10 years, I’d recommend the High Deductible plan with HSA.
4. Deservedly or not, NYC borough schools have a poor reputation. Some people tell me there are pockets of Queens etc. that are tolerable. Staten Island has many good towns, but that would be a suburban life, and not the city life you desire. Most "rich" people in NYC send kids to private schools - which is $40000 per year per kid.
Given all of these, and many more practical issues that you are guaranteed to encounter, even a $150000 or a $200000 per year salary will require a lot of trade-offs. A trade-off free life in NYC, i.e. a 4-bedroom-2000-sq-ft apartment in Manhattan for 3 kids, kids in private school and expensive summer camps, loads of travel and eating out kind of life will require an income north of $500000 per year.
This is not a discouragement! We (i.e. me and my wife) have seen/faced the same situation as far as financial trade-offs go and come up with our own answers to allow me to work in NYC (live in suburbs, long commute) etc. You will likely face same/similar trade offs and will need to come up with your unique set of solutions to them. I believe it will be a life-changing experience for you to make it in NYC for a few years and live to tell the tale :-D. So you should definitely try to come here for a little while.
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Very curious to see where you end up with the offer, but please don’t get scared by US health insurance. Wait and see what the offer says, as some corporate plans are quite generous. I recently had a baby and we paid the $1500 acalendar year out of pocket max on my plan, so all of my care for the rest of the year (in network) is no cost to me. I expected to get hit for $500 for my son at the hospital as we have a $2000 combined family deductible, but so far insurance has picked up everything for him at no cost to us. (He’s 2 months now.)
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Hm, I have not read this thread carefully so bear with me. My personal experience was that we lived in NYC on a single $150K/year salary and found it uncomfortable with only two kids (one a baby). On this salary, we could afford a 3BR for $3K/month and public school in the Bronx, plus some childcare. Could not afford Manhattan or the tonier Brooklyn neighborhoods. Parochial school may have been possible. Ended up moving to the burbs when pregnant with #3.
Will list downsides of this life(possible workarounds in parentheses)
- If you want kids to get exercise, you have to take them out, which gets boring and inconvenient (hire help)
- downstairs neighbors may get hostile, even if your kids are relatively quiet (find a first floor apartment)
- getting around on public transportation with a baby is difficult because not every subway station has a working elevator. Having a small child + baby is unpleasant because you are climbing up and down steep stairs carrying a baby in stroller, but can't hold child's hand. Sometimes kind strangers help. (find apartment near stop with elevator)
- taking bus with small child + baby is unpleasant because you have to keep track of baby, stroller, purse, child, and probably at least one bag or package. Leaving one on the bus by mistake is horrible. (no solution, stopped taking bus)
- having a car, also horrible. Even if you have your own home parking spot, like we did (maybe Lyft or cabs, but that gets expensive)
- With three children having to go through 3 application processes each to get into "good" public schools, I couldn't take the thought of 9 applications before they even graduated high school (stop fussing about G&Ts, go to your neigborhood school)
- not so many sports as suburban schools
- Elementary and middle schools may not be challenging enough unless your kid tests into citywide G&T... but even if s/he makes the cutoff, there's a lottery for that. Classrooms are crowded & the curriculum tends to be rigid, with lots of homework and worksheets (can look for a "progressive" public school)
Upsides
- We made tremendous numbers of friends of all sorts. New Yorkers are, believe it or not, friendly and loving if that is what you give out. It's also amazing the small town feel you can get, just in a more concentrated space. Our building was like a vertical neighborhood.
- Want to get real? This is the place! I liked some of my kids' friends in NYC better than their friends in our current community. Our current community has a tendency towards affluenza. You might still avoid reality if your kids end up in a pricier private school or part of town.
- Kids are so diverse that we didn't see bullying on ethnic grounds
- I became a better person in NYC. I saw enough human suffering and good hardworking people trying to make do with very little, to break me out of my oblivious bubble.
- Did a lot of fun stuff, though not so much as maybe we would had we lived in Manhattan.
- schools in Bronx are fine. Though the middle school options aren't great, we could have stressed less and stayed. Our kids' friends who stayed are fine, and ended up at wonderful specialized high schools
- great if you're a city person, don't mind crowds and don't need much space
- our oldest son sometimes wishes we hadn't left
Maybe some of this info would be useful for your situation.
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Sounds like you have an incredible opportunity in front of you! My sister lived in the Bronx for 3 years, while her husband attended medical school at the Albert Einstein School of Medicine. She loved it. They came with one child and had two more during their stay. Carting the kids around was a challenge, but she managed quite well. I was always amazed by her stories of going into Manhattan to visit the Met and other places. Given NYC's reputation, you might not expect it, but the kindness of strangers is amazing and everybody loves a baby! I'm sure their budget was much tighter than yours appears to be and they managed quite well, although they did get a subsidized 3-bedroom apartment from the school.
NYC is an amazing city. In terms of theater, museums, culture and the arts, it is unrivaled in the U.S. London might give it a run for the money, but I think New York still gets the nod and no place on earth even comes close in terms of density of skyscrapers. You should come, I think you'll love it. The selection of restaurants is incredible. There is so much to see and do. (FYI, I currently live in upstate New York. I'm not much of a city person, but I love to visit and see a show or an opera now and again.)
As for the financials, it all depends on your husband's package. I'm pretty sure medical coverage will be a non-issue, since most companies provide pretty good insurance. You may want to budget $3-5000 of out-of-pocket expenses for the birth just in case. Somehow my friends around here have seemed to get hit with some pretty large uncovered expenses for child birth. But, other non-planned and unexpected medical costs are almost always covered. As one poster mentioned, many health plans will have an annual maximum somewhere in the $2 to $10k range above which all costs are covered at 100%. And quite frankly, it's somewhat rare to hit those maximums, unless you have a major issue (eg. heart attack, stroke, complicated child birth, etc...).
Be sure to pay attention to the ex-pat tax conditions. Usually, there is a huge tax burden associated with an ex-pat assignment. Many companies will provide tax assistance and gross-ups, where the company actually pays for the additional taxes. Don't be afraid to ask about it.
Finally, one last thing, if you do come, be sure to engage socially. On such assignments, it's easy to feel like an outsider and not engage with the local community. I would suggest looking for a club, church or other social organization to help you make contacts and friends. That can be your fastest route to getting the local tips and information that can make all the difference between having a fantastic experience and standing on the sidelines.
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OP, I would like to add something here to balance some of the "trade-offs" I and other posters have mentioned.
Most of the replies might give you the impression as if $150k will mean you will literally struggle in NYC. This is probably not the complete picture!!
The reason people (including yours truly) burn through so much money so quickly in NYC is because they try to re-create a suburban lifestyle in a city. That is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!!
Random thoughts:
1. The worries and costs associated with kids schooling is likely overblown. People live in a city because of a sense of neighborhood/vibe, and lots of different ones within walking distance at that. The idea is to live in your community that will likely include a low-income senior in a rent controlled unit, a million-dollar-a-year banker, a grad student living on almost nothing and everything in between!! In that setting, obsessing over a school choice smacks of elitism that I am not sure comes out better for the kids in the end!! I have known people who have stayed back in those neighborhoods and their kids came out just fine - including several ivy-leaguers. In fact, those kids tend to get much better scholarships than the suburbanites because they came from "disadvantaged" neighborhood schools.
2. A $150k+ income puts you squarely into the top 25% EVEN in manhattan.
https://www.baruch.cuny.edu/nycdata/income-taxes/hhold_income-numbers.htm
The reason it often feels so little is the last row in the linked data table - the large number of households with a very high income!! When you have ten people in your community earning north of a million dollars, and five of them engages in the one-upmanship that is so typical in US, then you will feel inadequate if you have any keep-up-with-the-joneses tendencies!! Just ignore that and you should be fine.
3. Several things are very inexpensive in NYC! Eating out is spectacularly cheap if you like take-outs from food carts. I often walk to Chinatown to buy fruits from street-side carts that are at least 60% cheaper than my local supermarket. (I can get it 40% cheaper right outside my office building, I still walk to Chinatown because I just like the walk).
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Reading more about what you need from schools, here's what I have experienced. On school choice, safety will not be an issue at 99% of public schools whatever the borough, just read the reviews (https://insideschools.org/) before you move (and note that commenters usually are skewed towards those with an axe to grind). If you have the time, volunteer for the school parent-teacher association and you will very quickly have a community.
obsessing over a school choice smacks of elitism that I am not sure comes out better for the kids in the end!!
School choice can be an issue, not because of elitism or fear of poor people, but simply because if you are different from other families in the community, you will have different needs. Some issues we ran into through attending less "choice" public schools were:
- as I mentioned before, rigid curricula that teach to the tests. Starting in kindergarten, kids sit for a large part of the day doing worksheets. More worksheets to do at home, not well tailored to student levels. Son was bored and unhappy. After three years, we moved to a progressive school where there was no less/ homework, and they bragged about project based learning... son was happier there.
Well, other parents complained at PTA meetings that there was not enough homework! Being at work all day and not being favored with a large income and SAHP, they couldn't enrich their kids' learning. They needed the schools to give their kids education after school. So, everyone started getting more homework! If your children's needs are not like their peers, there is limited capability to accommodate them-- which is reasonable!
- very crowded classrooms, which is not great when the class population is so heterogeneous in needs
- burnt out teachers/a lot of class time spent just dealing with behavior problems in class
- no playgrounds of their own. Kids had to walk three blocks to a public playground and back, which meant that they had less time to run around. One school we went to had no gym or auditorium either. They used the cafeteria when it was not needed for lunch. But that meant time for movement was limited, so they did stretching and yoga at their desks in order to fulfill state mandates for exercise
- no air conditioning. This doesn't sound so bad but some years the kids are just melting in 90+ degree heat for a month. Teachers do what they can with fans, but not much learning happens in those conditions.
- fewer books on the shelves at the libraries
- when resources are low, people squabble more because the school is the only ticket for their kids out of poverty. We had a very toxic PTA for a while, because we had to kill ourselves to raise $15K a year, so people fought about what to spend it on. When we first arrived at the school there were no after school clubs, no book fair, no science fair, not much at all. We made these things happen and I am proud. But if you will not be volunteering or donating much to the school, then you don't want a fixer upper.
I feel that my younger kids have happier and less complicated lives in their suburban school. I wouldn't move back to the city at this point, but that's me. Sounds like you're a city person, and you would thrive on the energy. There is a huge potential for a person like you in the city, since it doesn't look like you are interested in a Disney-like experience of private schools and shopping. I am glad to have had the experience, we did much and saw much, and possibly one day we will look back and see that it had a positive effect on my oldest son as well.
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I really appreciate all the feedback. We are still waiting to hear more because just as this was supposed to be discussed husband ended up rushed off to a business trip to handle something they thought they could do without him and changed their minds in the end.
So not only did we not hear any more, I had a nightmare of a week trying to juggle everything in his sudden absence.
I totally understand both the people who say 150k is plenty and those who say it's nowhere near enough (but also keep in mind it is not a figure anyone has brought to the table, it is just something that Google gave me as the lower end of the range for his exact position in his company's NY office, so I chose to base my guessing on it..it could very well be that he would be given a much more generous deal...or it could be they'd try to haggle this down assuming that just getting to go to NYC is a perk in itself, because to be honest, I think a lot of single young people who get this opportunity feel that way).
I get this because very often people come here to Luxembourg on 100 000€ salaries and ask on social media if that's OK and it's usually a massive shitstorm in the comments with people earning less than that saying that it's a fortune and people earning more than that saying that it's a stretch.
And having been here for 4 years and considering our lifestyle from the point of view of two of us having high incomes and from the point of view of considering staying at home and letting my husband support us with roughly that, I can really see both sides of this.
Reality is, if we only had one 100 000€ pre tax annual salary, we would not starve here but we also wouldn't be able to save anything but a modest emergency fund. I wouldn't want to live like that indefinitely. On the other hand, I may consider it for a brief adventure somewhere fun and different.
So for me this NY option is more of a "slow travel" kind of thing than a family relocation, but that is of course a bit of an issue as my husband and my kids (especially my wannabe American kid) might not see it like that.
But well, at this point it's really just to wait and see what exactly it would be and also, how his business dealings on this side of the pond work out, as I imagine if he wins some of these major clients he won't be going anywhere, as it would be a stupid career move. And it's not him who wants to leave Luxembourg, it's me. But I won't make him leave if he will feel he can achieve so much more. He feels he could make partner in 2-3 years, it would suck to make him walk away from that just because I like Woody Allen movies better than Desperate housewives (or something else meant to evoke the image of living in a fancy suburban hell).
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A couple more thoughts. Maybe I've been too discouraging. After going through the education described above plus supplementation at home, my son was able to adjust easily to a highly rated suburban school. So if you're thinking about a temporary move, there is no worry about the final quality of education.
We know kids who got to see their compositions get performed by the NY Philharmonic (and went on later to performing arts middle schools, an hour commute but apparently worth it). Other kids are now going to top high schools like Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Hunter College High, Lehman. Some are studying to be professional dancers or musicians. They're happy, engaged, and living the dream. Other kids are still slogging through their neighborhood high schools. It depends on your children's interests and temperament (and also the extent to which you are able to engage as a parent).
There were many many small daily annoyances in this city with its aging infrastructure, but life in NYC was a meaningful life and a social life.
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I agree with much of what was written.. mainly it depends on the package. I have friends in Lux so I know it's Luxemboring especially compared to NYC but as others said it's fast paced, having small children will add to the challenges but I think if the package is amazing (it needs to be, to do the move, IMO) I'd say go for it.
+1
My$.02: If the package is NOT amazing, don't do it.
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I think we won't be going anywhere as husband's stars really seem to be aligning perfectly over here and he is probably going to make partner in a few years so really, why go anywhere. He likes it here, career gods like him, maybe it is really too unfair to make him move just because I want a change of scenery and the big kid wants to be American.
He also mentioned this casually to his parents and they flipped out completely, they are already resenting us big time for moving here,but at least we visit 2x per year and they come 1x per year.
Apparently my FIL hates flying. I am a little bit surprised to hear that as they travel a lot and it was MIL who said it, but it's true they usually drive to us.
I think they were really utterly shocked because they know I don't like it here and that I've been pushing gently to move back. The thought that move back suddenly turned into move to a different continent hit them hard.
Sometimes I think I should really just suck it up, it's so offensive to the realities of the world to be this miserable to have to live in Luxembourg.
Especially in a situation where we are financially able to do so (I can imagine that a lot of people can rightfully hate this place for being unable to earn a living wage).
But it's really not for me, I am craving a lively city, a thriving cultural scene, opportunities to change careers at any stage of my life (here that is a very abstract notion, unless we're talking turnign into a real estate developer once you somehow come into some land or quitting a day job because you can't manage with the kids and becoming a doula or life coach), I would love it for the kids to have a relationship with their grandparents (so yeah, moving even farther away is maybe not gonna help with that).
I mean, this place, I feel like almost everyone we meet are either people who are here temporarily and have zero desire to stay here permanently or are obnoxious wealthy housewives (am guessing husband meets the high flying husbands, but I just meet the ladies) with the intellectual prowess of an amoeba.
We now have some kind of an unspoken understanding that a huge part of the issue is that I am supposed to work in order to maintain our savings rate and that combining my skepticism of the place with sheer exhaustion from having to hold a job and be a mother in a competitive society such as this one is a major contributor to my dissatisfaction and that once my husband can singlehandedly outearn the living costs of Luxembourg and I can divide my time entirely between my desired intellectual pursuits and my mothering it would be easier.
But it's a few more years before we get there and I am beyond burned out by all this, so I don't know.
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I feel a need to rant about this. It is really frustrating how we seem to want radically different things and that was not so obvious a few years ago when we first got married.
We have a lot of common interests but we come from very different worlds.
My husband grew up in the wider area of Stockholm in Sweden. They had a nice house in a "good" suburb, a summer house in the islands and a boat. His mother was a stay at home mom which was not so common already at that time and it is because of that that my husband GENUINELY believes he grew up in a "modest" situation when it comes to wealth.
I was born in what was still Yugoslavia and then became Croatia in a bloody war while I was in elementary school. I lived in a rural area where most people are barely functionally literate, in a house that was built by my grandfather. I was lucky though in the sense that, regardless what many people here might believe, all the socialist communist crap of the previous times did have a noticeable effect on the ability of my parents to have some kind of decent education so they both had university degrees and public service jobs. That sadly still didn't mean they weren't idiots in many ways so I don't think I owe much more to my parents than the sheer fact that we had books in the home and got a computer and then Internet as soon as it became a thing.
When I was a kid my concept of luxury was to buy a banana or an imported toy, but I am still aware that I was better off than most of the kids around me.
So it is very ironic that my husband seems to subscribe to the theory that everything he accomplished in his life was because he worked hard for it, whereas I believe that I was exceptionally lucky at different points of my life and that I could have worked way harder than I ever did (tbh I was never a work hard type, I am a living example of the fact that you can be born with a high IQ and breeze through the requirements of life even if you are not super dedicated to anything in particular) and still ended up with a very inferior result.
But this discrepancy in how we understand our own life stories leads to some diverging political opinions (my husband is much more conservative, especially economically (it is uncommon for a Swede to be socially conservative) whereas I am a wild raging communist in his eyes (when for example I can't really align with much of the more extreme left here in Europe as I think they're too anti-intellectual for my taste), and, more importantly, to different ideas of how we are to live in the long term.
My husband seems to constantly need recognition for his hard work, he needs to be needed at work, rewarded for his performance, yadda yadda. It's like he has no sense of personal identity outside of being praised for his intellectual superiority.
I really don't need anyone to tell me I am smart. I know I am smart because I am sitting here now talking to you people, being coast FI and sad that I don't get to spend more time doing random intellectual pursuits. After I told you what my background is.
The only thing I absolutely need from someone outside of my own brain is for my kids to grow up feeling I was a warm and supportive parent. Because I didn't have that and I think it scarred me emotionally and I want to make sure my children grow up differently.
So obviously I am drawn to FIRE, whereas husband is drawn to overworking himself in the name of capitalism.
But I am trying to see this as a good thing, because to be honest, as long as we are OK with staying married ( and I think we both love and respect each other and are equally conservative when it comes to not being entirely willing to divorce over philosophical disagreements) , our desired lifestyles can complement each other. Him continuously earning a lot of money makes my FI position stronger (and I have really made my share of all this money so I have earned the right to consider myself FI and not a kept wife) and me being very dedicated to parenting our kids gives him a bit of street cred with his old school corporate buddies (let's be honest, stay at home wives are a status symbol to these guys).
So yes, I guess the solution for us it to stick it out to a million in net worth, task hubby with covering the cost of living in Luxembourg as a 5 member family and let me divide my time between kids and whatever I want to do.
And if even then I will find living in this little suburban utopia insufferable, well then we will have to have a more serious talk :/ Ironically I think by then the big kid will be old enough to demand to move to the US and maybe we let him be the tie breaker so we may end up there anyway.
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You have my sympathies.
I do suspect that some of the philosophical differences between your DH and yourself may be a male/female thing as much as a first/second world thing. Also, part of the problem I think may just be the stage of life you are at: two full time jobs plus pregnancy and 2/3 young kids is just hard, wherever you are in the world. It will of course pass, as long as you don't keep having more kids after this one!
Luxembourg, right. I was only ever in and out for overnight trips to the ECJ. I know Strasbourg a little better as I used to spend several weeks a year there at the CoE. Any chance of a move to Brussels or is your fonctionnaire status stuck in Luxembourg? I lived in Brussels for a couple of years and found it fine, but either Strasbourg or Luxembourg would have felt pretty restricted, especially compared to London. I suppose if I had ended up there I might have tried to move out and go for a rural lifestyle rather than trying to have a city lifestyle in something which is really just an overgrown bourgeois suburb with a little bit of history in the middle.
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former player - I don't think it's a male/female thing. More to do with different values and different experiences of life. I'm married to a man who is very far to the left politically and anti-capitalist which is kind of ironic as he runs a small business. I'm further towards the center -a center of the road Democrat in US terms. I know men and women of all different stripes and all different value systems.
I've dated men like havregyn's husband though, ironically, when I was living in NYC as the place is crawling with them. Highly ambitious white guys who seemed to have no idea of their privilege in life (gender, race, nationality and, often a nice middle class background with loving parents). Anyway one of the things I like about my husband is that he grew up poor so he doesn't have that and sympathizes intensely with the underdog. As someone who grew up middle class but in an extremely unconventional family, I found that his values gelled with mine in ways a middle class guys' (with married parents, mom baking cookies, white picket fence in the suburbs and all that stuff) values just don't. They were often completely unable to relate to the more "out there" parts of my childhood and were just shocked and uncomprehending. My husband works extremely hard but sees work as a way to make a living not some kind of definition of who he is, which is pretty much how I am. Also he's not exactly a feminist but due to his sense of fairness has no problem being the "go to" parent for pretty much everything since he has flexible hours and I don't. And even though he's a white male, he grew up without a lot of privilege. Sometimes he shocks me though - there were times when his large family didn't didn't eat very well.
Anyway, havregryn - did your husband share your values when you were first married? Is there any remnant of his old values left under his corporate exterior? What does he think of FIRE? Would be he willing to give up his career or ramp it down to do something else that he (and you) are more passionate about? Also as former player asked, can you guys go somewhere else in Europe? Maybe Brussels? London? I've never been to Luxembourg but I've been to Brussels and was pleasantly surprised. It seemed like a pretty cosmopolitan place and I liked the bilingual (Flemish and French) thing there, which I guess is similar to Luxembourg.
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My husband seems to constantly need recognition for his hard work, he needs to be needed at work, rewarded for his performance, yadda yadda. It's like he has no sense of personal identity outside of being praised for his intellectual superiority.
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So obviously I am drawn to FIRE, whereas husband is drawn to overworking himself in the name of capitalism.
It sounds like he would fit really well in the US!
Seriously, given Hula Hoop's comments, too, I might add this as a silver lining: perhaps it's for the best, as New York would likely just feed these tendencies--tendencies you don't seem to like? (I'm not sure if you don't like them on their face, or just because they are surfacing now) Maybe his view will mature once your oldest also matures: he makes partner, then...doesn't make senior partner? At whatever point his career plateaus, that might be a point for him to reflect on his values and where he is going. Of course, this is a common cause of the classic mid-life crisis; I'm sure that's not what you want. But if you can manage to find a happy (enough) balance for yourself, maybe you can then help him settle down and think about life outside / after career.
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Seriously, given Hula Hoop's comments, too, I might add this as a silver lining: perhaps it's for the best, as New York would likely just feed these tendencies--tendencies you don't seem to like?
For sure, NYC would give you both the opportunity to accentuate your tendencies, which could be worse for your relationship. Because Manhattan is crowded with supercompetitive, materialistic bubble dwellers.
Thoughts... what opportunities for social work are there in Luxembourg? Since I started hanging out with a wonderful group who works with refugees and immigrants, I no longer have complaints about a shallow social group.
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No, I could move to Brussels. I mean, in theory. My CV is still ok (but with every year that I stay not pursuing any kind of ambition and just doing my core job maybe less so lol) so I could probably move around. But the problem is - it is completely unrealistic to even imagine that we can somehow suffer me ending up in a more intense job. I whine about my job being a bit mindnumbing but it is very convenient in the sense that it is something that comes with very little individual responsibility (in the sense that I can at any time be instantly replaced by someone else from the department as we are all doing exactly the same thing, which is very convenient when you need to take time off on a very short notice), zero travel (there is absolutely nothing about my job description thatg could ever require me to travel anywhere) and can easily be done from home (no meetings, no clients, no external stakeholders, just me and my computer).
Any attempt to replace my job with something more exciting might end up in disaster, between my suboptimal health and family obligations.
A huge, huge, massive issue with embracing a more rural lifestyle here is that I don't drive and I am very reluctant to start. It feels counterintuitive to do something I am so anxious about (I had a stroke in 2015 and I have both some remnants of PTSD and weakened attention and reaction times, it feels very counterproductive to attempt to increase my quality of life with something that I am dreading and that may create a danger for me and others and I really feel it should not be that much of an extreme position in the 21st century Europe to say I want to live car-free lol)
It is absolutely impossible to even imagine living in rural Luxembourg without one (it is more likely that if my husband makes partner and we are still here in xy years we will have employed a personal driver to drive the kids around).
But this is another detail of how any long term life in Luxembourg means constantly spending 60-70-80 000€ per year. So once my husband can bring in the kind of income that will cover this + a buffer, well, good for him, I will be ready to talk. But right now me walking away from my own income would leave us living paycheck to paycheck (I mean, on a monthly basis,obviously the savings aren't going anywhere) and whether it's fully rationalto be terrified by that I don't know but so far we both still are.
My husband insists he hadn't changed at all and I sometimes want to punch him. The guy I met was 32 years old, had only finally finished his studies 2 years prior, after he had spent his 20s working part time in a bookstore, collecting books, switching study programs between mathematics, Japanese and computer science. Later on he started a distance course in biochemistry (education is free in Sweden so not hard to go all crazy). At age 30 he got some kind of an IT job that he was doing when I met him. He was earning less than half of what he or I earn now. Living in a nice little apartment in a suburb of Stockholm he had bought a year prior to that. One room completely full of books. Still working at the bookstore during some of the weekends (something he quit only when our first son was born and they kicked him out lol).
It was him who first found Mr. Money Mustache. We talked about FIRE a lot. The only reason I even pursued this job was that I knew this was the fastest way for me to earn a bucketload of money (I have degrees in psychology, French and comparative literature, employers are not lining up with bags of cash). Between me accepting this offer and us physically relocating (I asked for 6 months because I wanted to be home with what was then just one toddlder)he was constantly talking about all the things he would do now that I would be the primary earner.
Fast forward 6 months, he got offered a job via LinkedIn, they were instantly impressed with his abilities (he is definitely a super capable guy, no doubt about that, it's a fact that the Swedish culture doesn't reward this), he got some super fast promotions, promises of more to come and he was completely enchanted. 4 years later all he can talk about is how he regrets wasting all that time being happy and carefree (this is obviously my sarcasm, he doesn't phrase it like this, he's just sad he hadn't gotten on this career track sooner as he'd had been a millionaire for years now).
I mean, to give you a little glimpse into how Sweden works, when I first started a Swedish course there I was rather good at it (I was fluent in 5 languages already, it's hardly nuclear science to acquire another one, especially one closely related to English and German) , very quickly I was told I would have to tone it down or leave the course as me being so good at it was intimidating to the others.I get it that husband now feels like he is in heaven where everyone likes it that he is smart and wants to give him money for it, but still, I wish he'd keep his eye on the original goal a bit more.
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I really think it is impossible to move to a better location for us, that is why I am so frustrated (as we will need a larger place and I would love to sell this to take advantage of the enormous capital gains as it has appreciated immensely). Being more central wouldn't really mean anything as we would be marginally closer to our offices but have problems with schools and grocery stores. And really, we would be just marginally closer, it would still not be walkable for both of us, and if we moved closer to husband's work it would become a nightmare for mine and vice versa (as we work on different ends of this little "city" and the geography of Luxembourg is not exactly walk and bike friendly, photo exhibit A: (https://www.lequotidien.lu/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/mlk1-620x330.jpg))
This is something that I learned, whenever something appears on the market that appears affordable (if you stretch this word really far) , it almost inevitably means that it is accessed at such an angle that there is no way you are ever going to get to go anywhere in winter when there's ice on the road).
I honestly don't understand how people live in these houses. Son and I went for a playdate in one and it was a major hiking operation.
Really, housing options here are driving me insane. First, everything is insanely expensive. Second, rent vs. buy math is incredibly complicated and very unlikely to ever favor renting, mostly because even as a renter, you are supposed to pay for most of the maintenance and mortgage interest is 1.5%, with generous tax benefits, so more like less than 1% in practice.
But with me wanting to quit work and/or Luxembourg it's not exactly the smartest move to take a seven figure mortgage, even if it is "cheap" to borrow.
So obviously the most rational way to proceed is to live in this place for as long as we can (it's really not an issue to have small kids share a room but once they're preteens, I don't know, I am skeptical, it would be one thing if we had no other option, but come on, we have plenty of options, the most obvious one being moving back to Sweden lol).
Our current thinking is that we can try to stay here until 2021 and then look for a better solution. For me it feels almost inevitable that "better solution" will involve leaving Luxembourg, but well, I want to be openminded, who knows what can change till then.