Author Topic: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?  (Read 962 times)

webguy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 259
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Minnesota
Hey guys, I could use some advice and as this is the only internet forum I'm a part of then I figured I'd ask it here.

A few months back I went to a chiropractor for a regular adjustment as I was having some discomfort in my upper back.  It didn't help so I just left it for a while. A few weeks back I decided to try a different chiropractor. They are a "corrective" chiropractor, meaning that they will do x-rays and determine if there are any issues with your spine/neck and then provide a treatment plan for it.  I did the x-rays and they discovered I had "forward head posture" and that my neck was about 33mm forward from it's ideal curvature and was at risk to start developing arthritis.  I did some googling when I got home and it seems this pretty common from age 40 or so (I'm 33).

Anyway, so they recommended a 3-month 39-adjustment treatment plan which would help to start correct the alignment of my neck (likely results would be about a 6mm improvement after 3 months).  The only problem is this is going to cost $2,650 (they don't take insurance so it's all out of pocket).  After the 3 months is up there would be a further 9 month treatment plan which would cost another several thousand dollars (expected results after this 9 months would be another 10mm of correction).  After that 9 months they recommend you sign up for an ongoing "maintenance" annual plan to be adjusted twice a month on an ongoing basis which would be $90/month.

They gave the whole sales pitch on the benefits of this kind of chiropractic care and how it prevents major issues down the road, and I do buy into that, but my main objection is whether I really need this done at this point in my life.  I'm 33 and in good health.  I'm fairly active, although have worked at a computer for the past 10 years which is why I'm guessing this has developed.  I'm planning to FIRE in the next 3 years and won't be at a computer nearly as much then.  Also, now that I'm aware of the issue I can watch my posture and perhaps do some PT exercises on my neck to help with the forward posture.

The counter argument in my brain is that this is my health and it's not worth skimping on, and as I have a high income right now (~$950k in 2018) then I should just pay up and do it.  After reading about neck arthritis it's definitely something I don't want to develop at any point in my life.  I don't like the idea of wasting thousands of dollars though for something I don't really need and may be able to just partially treat myself with some at-home exercises.  I'm leaning towards just doing some exercises at home myself and then maybe having another x-ray in a year to see whether there's been any improvement and maybe reassess at that point.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this though to help me make a rational decision?

Thanks so much in advance!

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1238
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 03:28:32 PM »
This sounds very much like snake oil to me. Very expensive snake oil.

Cromacster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1625
  • Location: Minnesnowta
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 03:30:30 PM »
Chiro could help.....

How often are you sitting at a desk?  This is probably the biggest thing that causes it and will be the biggest thing from preventing you from fixing it.

But this could be treated with self care.  Lots of foam rolling the thoracic spine, stretching and rolling lat muscles, stretching and rolling chest muscles.

I enjoy Kelly Starrets videos and his company mobility WOD.  mobility WOD is a pay for kidna thing, but they have tons of free videos on youtube as well.  He's athelete focused, but all the things he talks about are good for just general health.

Good video to start with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2VcDSJ6wMU


Beard N Bones

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Canada
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 03:47:02 PM »
Hey guys, I could use some advice and as this is the only internet forum I'm a part of then I figured I'd ask it here.

A few months back I went to a chiropractor for a regular adjustment as I was having some discomfort in my upper back.  It didn't help so I just left it for a while. A few weeks back I decided to try a different chiropractor. They are a "corrective" chiropractor, meaning that they will do x-rays and determine if there are any issues with your spine/neck and then provide a treatment plan for it.  I did the x-rays and they discovered I had "forward head posture" and that my neck was about 33mm forward from it's ideal curvature and was at risk to start developing arthritis.  I did some googling when I got home and it seems this pretty common from age 40 or so (I'm 33).

Anyway, so they recommended a 3-month 39-adjustment treatment plan which would help to start correct the alignment of my neck (likely results would be about a 6mm improvement after 3 months).  The only problem is this is going to cost $2,650 (they don't take insurance so it's all out of pocket).  After the 3 months is up there would be a further 9 month treatment plan which would cost another several thousand dollars (expected results after this 9 months would be another 10mm of correction).  After that 9 months they recommend you sign up for an ongoing "maintenance" annual plan to be adjusted twice a month on an ongoing basis which would be $90/month.

They gave the whole sales pitch on the benefits of this kind of chiropractic care and how it prevents major issues down the road, and I do buy into that, but my main objection is whether I really need this done at this point in my life.  I'm 33 and in good health.  I'm fairly active, although have worked at a computer for the past 10 years which is why I'm guessing this has developed.  I'm planning to FIRE in the next 3 years and won't be at a computer nearly as much then.  Also, now that I'm aware of the issue I can watch my posture and perhaps do some PT exercises on my neck to help with the forward posture.

The counter argument in my brain is that this is my health and it's not worth skimping on, and as I have a high income right now (~$950k in 2018) then I should just pay up and do it.  After reading about neck arthritis it's definitely something I don't want to develop at any point in my life.  I don't like the idea of wasting thousands of dollars though for something I don't really need and may be able to just partially treat myself with some at-home exercises.  I'm leaning towards just doing some exercises at home myself and then maybe having another x-ray in a year to see whether there's been any improvement and maybe reassess at that point.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this though to help me make a rational decision?

Thanks so much in advance!

1.  There is very little scientific literature that would support the idea that a specific kind of curvature or spondylolisthesis can be linked/connected to specific kinds of clinical symptomology (ie. pain, stiffness, etc).  (There isn't evidence to support the opposite hypothesis however.)
2.  There is no scientific literature that would support the idea that if there was a specific kind of curvature (scoliosis, alordosis, hyperlordosis, etc) or spondylolisthesis that a chiropractor or any manual therapist can "fix" it.
3.  Most people get osteoarthritis in their lifetime (we aren't talking rheumatoid, psoriatic, or enteropathic seronegative spondyloarthropathies).  Osteoarthritis as confirmed on X-rays does not correlate well with symptoms.  Just over 40% of patients in the general population have osteoarthritis but aren't aware of it because they are symptom free.
4.  Chiropractic care is fantastic for hypomobile spinal joints.  Chiropractic care is excellent for helping peripheral nerve neuropathies.  Chiropractic preventive care is excellent, but "best practice guidelines" suggests that spinal manipulative therapy is undertaken approximately once a month.  (Some people do best with treatment once every 3 weeks, some every 4 months... depends on the individual!)
5.  Having good posture AND being physically fit and active is the best way to keep your spine healthy.  (Just make sure your joints, spinal nerves, and muscles are functioning well, especially if you really push it with your exercise.)

I'm a chiropractor.  I don't think getting x-rays and taking "x" number of treatments based on that lines up with the best evidence in the scientific literature.  Would that approach help though?  Yeah, probably.  Just not what I see as the best approach. Take that for what it's worth, being this is the internet and all!

FWIW:  There is a lot of hate for chiropractic and chiropractors.  But the scientific literature supports spinal manipulative therapy, of which is chiropractic is best known for. 

NewDay1

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 04:33:25 PM »
This is very common, and starting much earlier/teenage years these days due to devices.   

Chiro can be great, and I would recommend it's not your only go-to.  Physical therapy (to manipulate but also give you exercises to do at home) and massage therapy are good adjuncts since you have the funds for it all.

And, it's also about self-care and daily habits...and changing habits that led to this kind of alignment.  So, just going to chiro doesn't address this.

Echoing Kelly Starlett reference.  Consider getting his book "Deskbound-Standing-Up-Sitting-World" - helped me understand the importance of mobility exercises before strengthening and explains all the tools.  Haven't watched his videos, but will now (thanks Cromacster).

You might also consider Iyengar Yoga as the focus is posture and alignment (beginning or "gentle" classes - some instructors are very strict and folks can get injured through yoga - ALWAYS listen to your body in a yoga class no matter what the instructor says - there should be no pain, a stretching feeling sure, but no pain).  Haven't tried Pilates but that's supposed to be great for helping with posture too.

Good luck!


Laura33

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 04:34:36 PM »
No.  Just no. 

Anyone selling you a fixed multi-treatment plan for a massive amount of money does not have your best interests at heart.  Read the "my soon-to-be-millionaire family members" thread if you need a more detailed illustration of the business model you're dealing with.

tralfamadorian

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 06:32:16 PM »
With a 950k income, I would shell out for private pilates classes 3x/week with a focus on posture instead of chiro snake oil.

ElleFiji

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3705
  • Age: -166
  • Location: Always Winter
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 07:32:47 PM »
I'm a massage therapist and I agree with the chiro upthread.

Here's the deal. At your income level, if you wanted to come to my clinic twice a week I wouldn't stop you. I'd periodically remind you that you didn't need to come as often, but that my treatments aren't harmful and if you feel better, that's great. If you had discomfort or if you noticed a head forward posture you wanted corrected, or if I noticed a pattern of posture or tension that could lead to discomfort in the future, I'd give you daily exercises to do.

But I wouldn't trust any practitioner who diagnoses a problem that isn't currently affecting your life, and prescribes an insane level of treatment.

If you want to work with someone on your head forward posture find someone who can come up with a few alternative treatment plans (so that you can be involved in identifying what level of treatment works for you) and includes giving you homework.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 677
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2019, 07:53:34 PM »
That seems like a lot of treatment. I went to a chiro because I was in extreme pain and could not physically bend at the waist. I had one adjustment and the pain was gone. Chiro recommended several treatments over a month, followed by one the next month, then one every 3 months sort of thing. And that was just because you get into these weird situations by habitual usage of your body, so it was likely to return.

In your situation, I would be getting a second opinion, and also be looking at my work space set up.

firemane

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 11:30:02 PM »
I am not a doctor, but am quite experienced with upper back pain from personal experience it could be soft muscle tissue and imbalances that need to be corrected to permanently fix the issue. I am also experienced in wasting money on medical professionals for this pain when it was not helping

Do some YouTube searches on upper cross syndrome and winged scapula. Make sure to stretch your pec minors on a daily basis and look up posture excercises like prone-yís, wall angels, band pull apart, etc. Gorillazen fitness on YouTube has some great explanations as well as athlean-x. If you think you have either of those issues feel free to pm me for in depth info on how I fixed my back over time

 

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3870
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2019, 02:32:01 AM »
With a 950k income, I would shell out for private pilates classes 3x/week with a focus on posture instead of chiro snake oil.

Agree with the idea here that improving your posture through structured exercise would be a good lifelong solution, and also a lot more fun than medicalising yourself at 33.  There are lots of options.  Pilates or Alexander technique.  Yoga.  Tai Chi.  Ballroom dancing.  Many of the martial arts.  And yes to private classes.

slackmax

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 173
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 08:26:48 AM »
Interesting subject. I have upper back soreness that comes and goes, always same spot on the left of the backbone.

Doing pushups results in soreness 2 days later in the spot. 

A few days ago I was unkinking a brand new plastic downspout extension and had to use lots of force to unkink it (it was prepacked like a closed accordion). The motion was across my chest and backwards. I thought wow, I'm going to be sore as heck in 2 days. But no soreness came! And the upper back felt better than usual, actually. So maybe I found a good exercise for it.

I'm afraid of going to a chiro. Unless I can convince him/her to just listen to me, look at my back, but not to do any manipulations! A waste of time?

I currently do the lying on back on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes, once per day, with arms in various stretchy positions. Seems to reduce the soreness.

I have some of those stretchy colored rubber strands lying around somewhere. Will try out my downspout flexing exercise with them.

Also am checking out exercises and sources listed above. Thanks.

Good luck to all ! 
     

slappy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 653
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 08:41:30 AM »
I have this exact issue and have been going to a chiro for years because of it, and I still have it. I like my chiro and I go because it does make feel better. But it hasn't helped that particular issue. As others have said, there are far better ways to deal with the issue. I really need to look into those options as I seem to have developed a neck pain that is causing headaches on a regular basis. My PCP would give me a muscle relaxer for it, but I'd rather just prevent it.


firemane

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 08:24:11 PM »
Interesting subject. I have upper back soreness that comes and goes, always same spot on the left of the backbone.

Doing pushups results in soreness 2 days later in the spot. 

A few days ago I was unkinking a brand new plastic downspout extension and had to use lots of force to unkink it (it was prepacked like a closed accordion). The motion was across my chest and backwards. I thought wow, I'm going to be sore as heck in 2 days. But no soreness came! And the upper back felt better than usual, actually. So maybe I found a good exercise for it.

I'm afraid of going to a chiro. Unless I can convince him/her to just listen to me, look at my back, but not to do any manipulations! A waste of time?

I currently do the lying on back on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes, once per day, with arms in various stretchy positions. Seems to reduce the soreness.

I have some of those stretchy colored rubber strands lying around somewhere. Will try out my downspout flexing exercise with them.

Also am checking out exercises and sources listed above. Thanks.

Good luck to all ! 
   


Iím no medical professional but I can almost guarantee your pec minor is pulling your scapula forward. I dealt with this for years only mine was quite a bit worse because I was a power lifter. The reason the push-up hurts you is because tightening your chest is pulling your scapula forward and the rhomboids and lower traps are constantly pulled on. The pain can be very grueling. The thing that you did that helped was probably a motion similar to a band pull apart which has he opposite affect on your scapula as he pushups which is probably why it helped. Check out winged scapula videos. The laying on the ground thing prolly also helped because you were stretching your chest.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 08:33:20 PM by firemane »

Abe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1150
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 09:11:47 PM »
You have this problem probably from working at a desk/computer too much. Work on building upper body strength with exercises that balance your back, shoulder and chest muscles. I got help from a trainer because of similar problems, and they provided life-long lessons that are much cheaper and can be done for free now that I learned how to do them properly. Also, I know people poo-poo standing desks, but I found them helpful. My job doesn't involve a lot of computer time, but I do look at screens and look down a lot. Many people in my field who didn't pay attention to posture are suffering a lot now.

koshtra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 590
  • Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
  • massage therapist, database guy, worder
    • Mole
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2019, 12:35:59 AM »
It sounds to me like you have perfectly normal posture and some predictable discomfort from doing too much desk work.

If I were to pay a health professional to deal with it (I wouldn't), it would be a physical therapist, since there's some reason to believe they can address such things. What I'd actually do is what you're leaning towards -- try to figure out what needs strengthening and do exercises to strengthen it. Also, taking "microbreaks" during the work day -- getting up and moving around, and breaking the line of sight with your computer screen, and looking off into the distance if there's any distance to look to -- can help a lot.

There are some good chiropractors and some crappy chiropractors. I strongly suspect that the one trying to sell you this massive treatment is one of the crappy ones. 33 mm, seriously? You're supposed to be worried about that? That's well within normal variation. And correlation between posture and this sort of musculoskeletal pain is basically nonexistent.

SilveradoBojangles

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 06:19:28 AM »
Unless you correct the issues that cause the misalignment (poor posture, low muscle tone, working hunched at a computer station) then all the adjustment in the world isn't going to help. You would be better off investing in a physical training/exercise routine that focused on core work, strengthening muscle imbalances, and restoring mobility/flexibility.

JanetJackson

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
  • Location: United States
    • How I actually made $50 just for taking a survey and being in the healthcare marketplace
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 06:26:13 AM »
BUMP BUMP for Mobility WOD and anything Kelly Starrett.  When I played a high injury rate sport we had a team membership and I was one of the only ones who kept up with it and I had the lowest rate of injury over ten years.  Anecdotal, but I really think it helps along with an otherwise healthy lifestyle (eat, not too much, mostly plants - Raise your heart rate a few times a week - moderate stress - lift weights a few times a week - Sleep well).

His book is good too:

https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Supple-Leopard-2nd-Performance/dp/1628600837/ref=sr_1_1/140-6569502-6403339?ie=UTF8&qid=1547558613&sr=8-1&keywords=supple+leopard+by+kelly+starrett

Chiro could help.....

How often are you sitting at a desk?  This is probably the biggest thing that causes it and will be the biggest thing from preventing you from fixing it.

But this could be treated with self care.  Lots of foam rolling the thoracic spine, stretching and rolling lat muscles, stretching and rolling chest muscles.

I enjoy Kelly Starrets videos and his company mobility WOD.  mobility WOD is a pay for kidna thing, but they have tons of free videos on youtube as well.  He's athelete focused, but all the things he talks about are good for just general health.

Good video to start with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2VcDSJ6wMU

slackmax

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 173
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 07:36:09 AM »
Interesting subject. I have upper back soreness that comes and goes, always same spot on the left of the backbone.

Doing pushups results in soreness 2 days later in the spot. 

A few days ago I was unkinking a brand new plastic downspout extension and had to use lots of force to unkink it (it was prepacked like a closed accordion). The motion was across my chest and backwards. I thought wow, I'm going to be sore as heck in 2 days. But no soreness came! And the upper back felt better than usual, actually. So maybe I found a good exercise for it.

I'm afraid of going to a chiro. Unless I can convince him/her to just listen to me, look at my back, but not to do any manipulations! A waste of time?

I currently do the lying on back on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes, once per day, with arms in various stretchy positions. Seems to reduce the soreness.

I have some of those stretchy colored rubber strands lying around somewhere. Will try out my downspout flexing exercise with them.

Also am checking out exercises and sources listed above. Thanks.

Good luck to all ! 
   


Iím no medical professional but I can almost guarantee your pec minor is pulling your scapula forward. I dealt with this for years only mine was quite a bit worse because I was a power lifter. The reason the push-up hurts you is because tightening your chest is pulling your scapula forward and the rhomboids and lower traps are constantly pulled on. The pain can be very grueling. The thing that you did that helped was probably a motion similar to a band pull apart which has he opposite affect on your scapula as he pushups which is probably why it helped. Check out winged scapula videos. The laying on the ground thing prolly also helped because you were stretching your chest.

Firemane,

Thanks for the reply!  I googled pec minor to see what they were. Also googled winged scapula, and I don't have that, thank God.   

The pushups don't hurt at all when I am doing them. It takes a couple days for the soreness to show up, for some reason. Must be a tendon or muscle getting overworked somewhere around the scapula, but not in a painful way. Like shoveling snow all day, then feeling sore 2 days later.

I found one of the old flexible bands lying around, and use it gently once per day now, recreating  the 'downspout unkinking' exercise (opposite of pushups).

Also doing the lying on back thing once per day. So far so good. Also whenever I find myself hunching forward at a terminal, I sit up straight and move my shoulders around.

Still not doing any more pushups. Maybe in the future, lol.   

Beard N Bones

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Canada
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 11:12:14 AM »
It sounds to me like you have perfectly normal posture and some predictable discomfort from doing too much desk work.
That is an interesting statement.  I'm not sure how you can claim "normal posture" without actually seeing(!) what that person looks like.  Secondly, without taking a good history and physical exam, I would be cautious in giving suggested specific diagnosis.
Quote
If I were to pay a health professional to deal with it (I wouldn't), it would be a physical therapist, since there's some reason to believe they can address such things. 
  So for clarity sake, what kind of "such things" are you referring to?  Too much desk work discomfort?  If it is truly too much desk work that is the issue, why is this person only experiencing upper back discomfort?  The lumbar and cervical spine also is dealing with "too much desk work", so why not neck and low back pain as well?  The reason I ask such questions... you've got to ask WHY is there discomfort?  (As you can tell, I think "too much desk work" is a bad answer.  Many people do "too much desk work" and have no discomfort.  Poor posture as found by those that sit at a desk, like others in this thread seem to find an acceptable explanation, is better reasoning.)[/quote]
Quote
33 mm, seriously? You're supposed to be worried about that? That's well within normal variation.
Sure 33 mm!  The diameter of the whole spinal canal is approx 7-12mm in diameter.  The intervertebral foramen is approx 6mm wide and 12 mm tall.  Certainly changes changes to the spine (structural or functional) that are as "small" as 33 mm can make a huge symptom and functional difference.  I'm curious to hear what you believe "normal variation" is.  What are the measurements (in millimeters) that would describe a "normal" cervical spine lordosis? 
Quote
And correlation between posture and this sort of musculoskeletal pain is basically nonexistent.
I strongly disagree.  There is enough scientific evidence to suggest the opposite hypothesis:  that there is a strong correlation between head forward posture and cervical/thoracic spine pain.
However, as I said in my previous comment, there is a poor correlation between radiographic findings relating to degree of cervical spine lordosis and symptoms. 

frugaliknowit

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1599
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 11:46:29 AM »
I would approach your problem holistically:

1.  Carefully monitor how much you are sitting and minimize it.  Get a standing desk.

2.  Take up yoga (I mean the physical kind).  Start with a beginner's class.  Don't do any poses that "bother" you (if any).  If you've never done yoga, it might seem very strange...be patient...if you don't care for a given instructor/class, try another.  No, you cannot learn yoga on-line.

3.  Swim laps (what I mean is take up swimming, not just splashy splash in the water...).  If you don't know how to swim laps (swim with your head in the water, eventually pretty continuously...).

4.  Strengthen your core.

5.  (Maybe) Weight train intelligently.  By that I mean get a trainer if you have no experience.  If you do have experience, listen to your body as you do it.  No, don't try becoming a power lifter...

koshtra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 590
  • Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
  • massage therapist, database guy, worder
    • Mole
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 12:30:35 PM »
It sounds to me like you have perfectly normal posture and some predictable discomfort from doing too much desk work.
That is an interesting statement.  I'm not sure how you can claim "normal posture" without actually seeing(!) what that person looks like.  Secondly, without taking a good history and physical exam, I would be cautious in giving suggested specific diagnosis.
Quote
If I were to pay a health professional to deal with it (I wouldn't), it would be a physical therapist, since there's some reason to believe they can address such things. 
  So for clarity sake, what kind of "such things" are you referring to?  Too much desk work discomfort?  If it is truly too much desk work that is the issue, why is this person only experiencing upper back discomfort?  The lumbar and cervical spine also is dealing with "too much desk work", so why not neck and low back pain as well?  The reason I ask such questions... you've got to ask WHY is there discomfort?  (As you can tell, I think "too much desk work" is a bad answer.  Many people do "too much desk work" and have no discomfort.  Poor posture as found by those that sit at a desk, like others in this thread seem to find an acceptable explanation, is better reasoning.)
Quote
33 mm, seriously? You're supposed to be worried about that? That's well within normal variation.
Sure 33 mm!  The diameter of the whole spinal canal is approx 7-12mm in diameter.  The intervertebral foramen is approx 6mm wide and 12 mm tall.  Certainly changes changes to the spine (structural or functional) that are as "small" as 33 mm can make a huge symptom and functional difference.  I'm curious to hear what you believe "normal variation" is.  What are the measurements (in millimeters) that would describe a "normal" cervical spine lordosis? 
Quote
And correlation between posture and this sort of musculoskeletal pain is basically nonexistent.
I strongly disagree.  There is enough scientific evidence to suggest the opposite hypothesis:  that there is a strong correlation between head forward posture and cervical/thoracic spine pain.
However, as I said in my previous comment, there is a poor correlation between radiographic findings relating to degree of cervical spine lordosis and symptoms.
[/quote]

koshtra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 590
  • Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
  • massage therapist, database guy, worder
    • Mole
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 12:42:30 PM »
It sounds to me like you have perfectly normal posture and some predictable discomfort from doing too much desk work.
That is an interesting statement.  I'm not sure how you can claim "normal posture" without actually seeing(!) what that person looks like.  Secondly, without taking a good history and physical exam, I would be cautious in giving suggested specific diagnosis.
Quote
If I were to pay a health professional to deal with it (I wouldn't), it would be a physical therapist, since there's some reason to believe they can address such things. 
  So for clarity sake, what kind of "such things" are you referring to?  Too much desk work discomfort?  If it is truly too much desk work that is the issue, why is this person only experiencing upper back discomfort?  The lumbar and cervical spine also is dealing with "too much desk work", so why not neck and low back pain as well?  The reason I ask such questions... you've got to ask WHY is there discomfort?  (As you can tell, I think "too much desk work" is a bad answer.  Many people do "too much desk work" and have no discomfort.  Poor posture as found by those that sit at a desk, like others in this thread seem to find an acceptable explanation, is better reasoning.)
Quote
33 mm, seriously? You're supposed to be worried about that? That's well within normal variation.
Sure 33 mm!  The diameter of the whole spinal canal is approx 7-12mm in diameter.  The intervertebral foramen is approx 6mm wide and 12 mm tall.  Certainly changes changes to the spine (structural or functional) that are as "small" as 33 mm can make a huge symptom and functional difference.  I'm curious to hear what you believe "normal variation" is.  What are the measurements (in millimeters) that would describe a "normal" cervical spine lordosis? 
Quote
And correlation between posture and this sort of musculoskeletal pain is basically nonexistent.
I strongly disagree.  There is enough scientific evidence to suggest the opposite hypothesis:  that there is a strong correlation between head forward posture and cervical/thoracic spine pain.
However, as I said in my previous comment, there is a poor correlation between radiographic findings relating to degree of cervical spine lordosis and symptoms.
[/quote]

Fair enough. If you send me links to the studies claiming the correlations, I'll read 'em, or at least some of them.

You're right, of course, that without seeing the person and running through some tests with them we don't know what the hell we're talking about. By normal variation I just meant I've got plenty of clients whose heads sit an inch or two forward, who have no problems, and several with heads which don't, who have all kinds of them. I don't myself notice any correlation and back when I was reading the literature I didn't find such correlations convincing. It's been a while and maybe people have finally backed it up.

My training is minimal -- I'm just a massage therapist with the typical sketchy education we do in the States (although I do at least read) so my opinions really don't count here.

firemane

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 02:22:36 PM »
Interesting subject. I have upper back soreness that comes and goes, always same spot on the left of the backbone.

Doing pushups results in soreness 2 days later in the spot. 

A few days ago I was unkinking a brand new plastic downspout extension and had to use lots of force to unkink it (it was prepacked like a closed accordion). The motion was across my chest and backwards. I thought wow, I'm going to be sore as heck in 2 days. But no soreness came! And the upper back felt better than usual, actually. So maybe I found a good exercise for it.

I'm afraid of going to a chiro. Unless I can convince him/her to just listen to me, look at my back, but not to do any manipulations! A waste of time?

I currently do the lying on back on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes, once per day, with arms in various stretchy positions. Seems to reduce the soreness.

I have some of those stretchy colored rubber strands lying around somewhere. Will try out my downspout flexing exercise with them.

Also am checking out exercises and sources listed above. Thanks.

Good luck to all ! 
   


Iím no medical professional but I can almost guarantee your pec minor is pulling your scapula forward. I dealt with this for years only mine was quite a bit worse because I was a power lifter. The reason the push-up hurts you is because tightening your chest is pulling your scapula forward and the rhomboids and lower traps are constantly pulled on. The pain can be very grueling. The thing that you did that helped was probably a motion similar to a band pull apart which has he opposite affect on your scapula as he pushups which is probably why it helped. Check out winged scapula videos. The laying on the ground thing prolly also helped because you were stretching your chest.

Firemane,

Thanks for the reply!  I googled pec minor to see what they were. Also googled winged scapula, and I don't have that, thank God.   

The pushups don't hurt at all when I am doing them. It takes a couple days for the soreness to show up, for some reason. Must be a tendon or muscle getting overworked somewhere around the scapula, but not in a painful way. Like shoveling snow all day, then feeling sore 2 days later.

I found one of the old flexible bands lying around, and use it gently once per day now, recreating  the 'downspout unkinking' exercise (opposite of pushups).

Also doing the lying on back thing once per day. So far so good. Also whenever I find myself hunching forward at a terminal, I sit up straight and move my shoulders around.

Still not doing any more pushups. Maybe in the future, lol.

Yep. When I had the issue I would do bench press and then my rhomboids would hurt the next day. I believe rounding forward in a chair constantly caused the issue

Abe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1150
Re: Should I pay up for corrective chiropractic for forward head posture?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 09:10:55 PM »
Yep. When I had the issue I would do bench press and then my rhomboids would hurt the next day. I believe rounding forward in a chair constantly caused the issue

I used to have this problem for years, and my trainer pointed out a few things:

1. sitting long time in a chair = bad (realized this after working standing up for 2 years and lower back pain disappeared)
2. Make sure your scapulas are pulled in properly when bench pressing, that'll put the added weight on them rather than the rhomboids. (this helped a lot with your specific problem)
3. Exercising your latissimus and trapezius is really important with similar weights to bench presses/curls. I don't go up on the latter unless I can handle the same weight with the former.