The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: begood on April 17, 2015, 07:43:14 AM
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[I modified the thread title to better reflect that it's MY ideal, not anyone else's!]
I read on another thread recently (can't find it! holler if it was you!) that there are three things that make an impact on a job - people, work, money. You hope to always have two of the three be positive at any given job.
As I continue to dream of what our next stage might look like - probably in ten years, could be as few as five or six - I keep coming back to the fact that what I'm looking for and what I currently have are not in congruence.
I have:
Negative: High cost of living
Negative: Cold, messy, long winters
Positive: Strong, socially liberal community
I'd like:
Positive: Low cost of living
Positive: Mild(er) climate - shorter winters, longer summers
Positive: Socially liberal community
Some places do come to mind: Asheville and Charlotte NC; Nashville TN; Athens GA. Chapel Hill, where I grew up, is pretty HCOL compared to other spots in NC. Maybe there are hundreds of college towns where I'd find that, and I just don't know about them.
But I'd love to hear about other areas of the country where I might find that trifecta. It feels like the places that are more liberal tend to be HCOL and/or less desirable climate-wise.
I have another dream list that includes things like access to an int'l airport, good health care options, and a Costco, but it seems like looking at climate, cost of living, and overall community values structure would be a good place to start.
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There was a search for the perfect ERE city on the ERE forums (http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?t=1299). There's a list of candidates on the ERE wiki (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/index.php?title=ERE_City). Jacob was seriously considering Eugene, OR.
I heard that COL was rising in places like Charlotte, but it doesn't look like it from the real estate prices.
Has anyone created a Mustachian city metric that could be compiled from readily available data?
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There was a search for the perfect ERE city on the ERE forums (http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?t=1299). There's a list of candidates on the ERE wiki (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/index.php?title=ERE_City). Jacob was seriously considering Eugene, OR.
I heard that COL was rising in places like Charlotte, but it doesn't look like it from the real estate prices.
Has anyone created a Mustachian city metric that could be compiled from readily available data?
I'll check out the ERE wiki - thanks for that tip, velocistar237! What I find in my admittedly cursory research so far is that the more desirable areas of Charlotte and the Triangle have higher COL. Duh, I guess. :) There's plenty of LCOL areas in NC, some even near big cities like Charlotte, but it veers from blue to purple to deep red pretty quickly once you're out of the metro areas. I like Davidson, NC - close enough to the airport, close to Lake Norman, more liberal than much of NC because of the college-town atmosphere. But real estate is expensive there compared to more rural areas further afield.
And I have seen a city metric - a member created it - but I don't know if it included climate and political persuasion.
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There was a search for the perfect ERE city on the ERE forums (http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?t=1299). There's a list of candidates on the ERE wiki (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/index.php?title=ERE_City). Jacob was seriously considering Eugene, OR.
I heard that COL was rising in places like Charlotte, but it doesn't look like it from the real estate prices.
Has anyone created a Mustachian city metric that could be compiled from readily available data?
Hehe. The idea of a mustachian city metric has me giggling, even though it's actually a cool idea.
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What do you define as a short winter? i.e. Would areas of the lower Midwest fit the bill? That would open up other places for you.
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What do you define as a short winter? i.e. Would areas of the lower Midwest fit the bill? That would open up other places for you.
Does "shorter than the one I experience in southeast PA" work? ;)
I lived in Cincinnati for a couple of years. Really effing cold there, I've gotta say. I liked the Memphis winters but didn't love the super hot muggy summers. SO much hotter in Memphis than in Orlando. I actually loved the weather in Orlando, but my mister missed autumn. So maybe it's better to say I'd like four seasons with milder summers and winters?
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The border regions of Texas are warm (not exactly mild, though) and they certainly vote Democrat, though what "socially liberal" mean to people seems to change day-by-day. Definitely cheap.
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Asheville actually has a pretty high COL from what I can tell because everyone wants to live there. When we visit, we usually avoid crazy Asheville hotel prices by staying in neighboring Black Mountain. It is cute and less expensive, but I can't speak to the politics there.
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Asheville actually has a pretty high COL from what I can tell because everyone wants to live there. When we visit, we usually avoid crazy Asheville hotel prices by staying in neighboring Black Mountain. It is cute and less expensive, but I can't speak to the politics there.
Yes, Asheville proper is pretty expensive. Black Mountain and Swannanoa are less expensive, but also more isolated. I would imagine there's a mixed bag, politically speaking, in the outer areas. Warren Wilson College in Swannanoa is crunchy granola, for example.
I had not considered Texas - or anywhere in the West, really, since my orientation is so markedly East Coast. We felt VERY far from home when we lived in Memphis. Central Time Zone! Crazypants! But this is why I put the question to the group at large - y'all are from every old where, and the time will come when we could choose to uproot and set down somewhere completely new.
Maybe a better term than "socially liberal" would be "politically blue"? I don't know. I grew up in a liberal college town in an overall conservative state. I find I'm more comfortable in those kinds of towns, so that's where I hope to retire.
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Maybe also question your desire to live in an echo chamber? (If you'd be discriminated against someplace, that I get. But others on this forum have said they did a "Prius count" to decide whether a places was OK. That's bizarre.)
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What do you define as a short winter? i.e. Would areas of the lower Midwest fit the bill? That would open up other places for you.
Does "shorter than the one I experience in southeast PA" work? ;)
I lived in Cincinnati for a couple of years. Really effing cold there, I've gotta say. I liked the Memphis winters but didn't love the super hot muggy summers. SO much hotter in Memphis than in Orlando. I actually loved the weather in Orlando, but my mister missed autumn. So maybe it's better to say I'd like four seasons with milder summers and winters?
This is a hard combo to find. I feel ya, though. I've often said to my husband that this would be my ideal year: 8 months of real spring/fall temperatures (i.e. a high between 60-70, lows between 40-50), 2 months of swimming weather (i.e. highs of 85), and 2 months of winter (high of 30/40ish to allow for some snow).
Sadly, this precision doesn't exist in nature. I loved English weather overall, although I could do without the spitting, cold rain and the wind.
Here in Missouri, we seem to get the worst of both worlds. In one year, our temps can swing from 0 to 102 degrees, sometimes even more. It sucks, but at least it's cheap. :)
Regarding politics, you can find liberal enclaves all over the country. I live in a liberal area, but the state I live in is solidly red now, and you wouldn't have to drive far to enter solidly red areas.
Is Austin not on your list because it's hot or because it's getting more and more expensive? Also, what about areas of Kentucky? What about Knoxville? Or Louisville?
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We've been looking for years, and it doesn't seem to exist.
Find a place on the map w/ mild climate & liberal, and the COL is sky high (compared to the upper midwest).
Find a place down south w/ nice climate & LCOL and the yards around the mobile homes are populated by jacked up trucks w/ rebel flag mudflaps.
And then there's LCOL areas w/ liberal minds that have nasty winters (MN & WI cities).
Subscribed in hope of new possibilities being mentioned.
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Maybe also question your desire to live in an echo chamber? (If you'd be discriminated against someplace, that I get. But others on this forum have said they did a "Prius count" to decide whether a places was OK. That's bizarre.)
I would not be discriminated against myself, but I have family members who might be. I've lived in conservative spots (Greensboro NC, Memphis TN, even Cincinnati has a strong conservative streak). In my younger years, I was content to keep my views to myself in order to make friends - we just knew what we couldn't talk about, and we found enough in common to make that work. But oh, the joy I felt when I moved to a community that was much more solidly liberal, where I could speak freely about how I felt and feel understood and accepted. This is not a small thing, and it doesn't constitute an echo chamber, in my view. As the child of a journalist, I was taught to read widely and voraciously, and to form my own opinion rather than blindly follow any particular credo or ideology.
If there's a good thing about getting older, it's feeling more secure in being who I am. I experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance when we lived in those more conservative places, where I felt that to be accepted, I had to hide the parts of myself that wouldn't meet with community approval. I felt... out of place. If I have the choice, I'd rather not to back to feeling like that.
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Tucson is liberal and low COL and eight months of ideal weather. However, you wouldn't want to be here in summer if you didn't have to be. If you could leave in the summers, it meets your other criteria.
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Tucson is liberal and low COL and eight months of ideal weather. However, you wouldn't want to be here in summer if you didn't have to be. If you could leave in the summers, it meets your other criteria.
And there's Flagstaff for the reverse effect. In other words, you might want to escape the winter snow.
Or has housing gotten too expensive in Flagstaff?
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There are lists online of best college towns. Pretty much any college town will have socially liberal, and cheap if you look at the right size of town. Then just pick the geography you want.
That is basically what we are searching based on, but our geography goal is more Midwest, with an emphasis on being close enough to a major city for access to excellent health care and reasonable airport costs, etc.
I don't plan to retire somewhere warm (awful summers, ick) I hope to just winter somewhere southern for January and February.
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Is Austin not on your list because it's hot or because it's getting more and more expensive? Also, what about areas of Kentucky? What about Knoxville? Or Louisville?
I hadn't considered any of Texas before today, but I'll have to rethink that! I will take a look at Austin and those border areas mentioned above. I think the college towns in KY and TN have potential - Lexington, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville. Although after so long in NC and FL, we felt really landlocked in both Memphis and Cincinnati, so maybe those interior KY and TN cities would feel like that too?
For you AZ folk, I looooove Arizona. Flagstaff is freakin' gorgeous, and Tucson has all that sky. And I have family in Scottsdale. I could see snowbirding there.
I like eastern Maryland for climate but it's another spot like NC where its LCOL areas are red and its HCOL areas are blue. I need to find me some purple, people! ;)
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Very hard to find without compromising on at least one. The HCOL, to the extent that it's a function of housing prices, is what ruins most candidates that have good weather. Places like southern coastal California that have good year-round weather will see 7-figure price tags for houses that barely crack 1,000 sf and are in dubious neighborhoods. In these markets you are not really buying a house as much as you are buying year-round access to good weather.
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There are lists online of best college towns. Pretty much any college town will have socially liberal, and cheap if you look at the right size of town. Then just pick the geography you want.
That is basically what we are searching based on, but our geography goal is more Midwest, with an emphasis on being close enough to a major city for access to excellent health care and reasonable airport costs, etc.
I don't plan to retire somewhere warm (awful summers, ick) I hope to just winter somewhere southern for January and February.
Sounds like we're looking for pretty similar things, MayDay, except maybe the section of the country. Wintering warm could be a compromise. I've already told my mister that if we end up settling down here in southeast PA for good, he's going to have to take me someplace warm for January - March, possibly even to mid-April. We visited NC over the weekend, and it was 70s and sunny, with dogwoods and redbuds and azaleas in bloom, and green everywhere, then drove back north, watching for the change from green to dead winter brown. It happened in Bowling Green, VA.
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The problem is that once places like this get "found", their CoL tends to rise. That's what happened to my home town; when I left housing prices were almost on par with where I live now, but now they're much, much higher. Part of that was the housing bubble (which never reached my current small city), but another big part of it was that my home town started to be featured in various "best places" lists. That attracts wealthy buyers, which in turn drives up prices.
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I'll check out the ERE wiki - thanks for that tip, velocistar237! What I find in my admittedly cursory research so far is that the more desirable areas of Charlotte and the Triangle have higher COL. Duh, I guess. :) There's plenty of LCOL areas in NC, some even near big cities like Charlotte, but it veers from blue to purple to deep red pretty quickly once you're out of the metro areas. I like Davidson, NC - close enough to the airport, close to Lake Norman, more liberal than much of NC because of the college-town atmosphere. But real estate is expensive there compared to more rural areas further afield.
I grew up in Davidson, and several of my friends who still live in the area have moved to Cornelius and Mooresville (east of 77 in both cases) due to housing costs. Those towns are both now much like Davidson was 15 years ago, albeit with a lot of sprawl attached. I'd look there, particularly Mooresville.
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If you don't mind Grey, the pacific northwest. I lived in Corvallis, OR for grad school which is half hour from Eugene, OR. Those cities are liberal, bikeable, no huge temperature extremes, beautiful greenery. In the early 2000's Portland was cheap and I kinda wish I had settled there. Oh well.
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Houston and Dallas are substantial urban centers with plenty of liberals and even more socially liberal people. Both have relatively low cost of living (though Houston really bumped up over the last five years).
I've more Confederate flags in the small metro area where I live in southeastern Pennsylvania and in western New York State where I went to college than I remember seeing growing up in Houston and Dallas.
If you think, as somebody said above, that everywhere outside of deep-blue urban centers is Confederate flags and trailer parks, you are leading a thoroughly blinkered existence.
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If you grew up in NC, you probably know this. But in terms of being liberal, Asheville is more liberal than Chapel Hill, and Chapel Hill is more liberal than Charlotte. I'm sure you'd find a home in any of these places. Have you considered Wilmington or the surrounding beaches? It's smaller, but the beaches are beautiful.
I grew up in NC so I have friends and family in all these places still.
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I'll check out the ERE wiki - thanks for that tip, velocistar237! What I find in my admittedly cursory research so far is that the more desirable areas of Charlotte and the Triangle have higher COL. Duh, I guess. :) There's plenty of LCOL areas in NC, some even near big cities like Charlotte, but it veers from blue to purple to deep red pretty quickly once you're out of the metro areas. I like Davidson, NC - close enough to the airport, close to Lake Norman, more liberal than much of NC because of the college-town atmosphere. But real estate is expensive there compared to more rural areas further afield.
I grew up in Davidson, and several of my friends who still live in the area have moved to Cornelius and Mooresville (east of 77 in both cases) due to housing costs. Those towns are both now much like Davidson was 15 years ago, albeit with a lot of sprawl attached. I'd look there, particularly Mooresville.
Funny, historienne, Mooresville is what I was just looking at on city-data.com! If we're not trying to get into Charlotte every day (which we wouldn't be...), I could see that as a great spot. I also like Matthews, which is much closer to the Costco, but again, prices are going up up up. There's the Lake Wylie area of SC, but I'd definitely want to be sure I could go to NC for health care if we bought in SC.
ShoulderThingThatGoesUp, I'm not living a blinkered existence. I don't think anywhere outside urban areas is trailer parks and confederate flags. That's the whole point of me coming on here with my query - I'm hoping people can point me to great spots that aren't on the extreme of any spectrum - political or climatological. I'm sure they exist. It's a big world out there.
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ShoulderThingThatGoesUp, I'm not living a blinkered existence. I don't think anywhere outside urban areas is trailer parks and confederate flags. That's the whole point of me coming on here with my query - I'm hoping people can point me to great spots that aren't on the extreme of any spectrum - political or climatological. I'm sure they exist. It's a big world out there.
I was paraphrasing TheFixer's post, not one of yours.
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Austin is becoming very pricy as regards housing. Prices are heading up steeply. It also has more of a city vibe than a smallish-town vibe, which has advantages (more going on) but disadvantages (less bikable).
Eugene has pretty much what you want, is very bikable, and has a mild climate. House prices are not that cheap in Eugene, but oddly rents are quite cheap. Not so good if you want to own rentals, but good if you want to live in one. Housing is cheaper to own in the adjacent town, Springfield.
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ShoulderThingThatGoesUp, I'm not living a blinkered existence. I don't think anywhere outside urban areas is trailer parks and confederate flags. That's the whole point of me coming on here with my query - I'm hoping people can point me to great spots that aren't on the extreme of any spectrum - political or climatological. I'm sure they exist. It's a big world out there.
I was paraphrasing TheFixer's post, not one of yours.
Ah, I see! I think even TheFixer's post was a list painted with broad strokes. I understood it as generalities.
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If you grew up in NC, you probably know this. But in terms of being liberal, Asheville is more liberal than Chapel Hill, and Chapel Hill is more liberal than Charlotte. I'm sure you'd find a home in any of these places. Have you considered Wilmington or the surrounding beaches? It's smaller, but the beaches are beautiful.
I grew up in NC so I have friends and family in all these places still.
I think we could find a spot in any of those places too, Genevieve. I think the downside to Wilmington is that it's pretty far from a good-sized airport (RDU, CLT). My mister's folks lived in the Sand Hills near Pinehurst. Dirt cheap, mild winters, good health care because of the wealthy golfer set, but quite conservative and a solid 90 minutes without traffic to RDU. When his folks passed, we considered keeping their home, but we didn't want to be long-distance landlords or supervise the absolutely necessary renovations to kitchen and bathrooms (and subfloor, it turned out). So we sold it. This was pre-MMM and odds are good that the story would have had a different ending if we'd known then what we know now. We could still buy in that area if we chose, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice.
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Very hard to find without compromising on at least one. The HCOL, to the extent that it's a function of housing prices, is what ruins most candidates that have good weather. Places like southern coastal California that have good year-round weather will see 7-figure price tags for houses that barely crack 1,000 sf and are in dubious neighborhoods. In these markets you are not really buying a house as much as you are buying year-round access to good weather.
I think that's a great point, pagoconcheques. My brother lives in Cardiff-by-the-Sea, so at least I have a nice place to go visit. :)
Thanks for all those mentions of Eugene, OR. I'll have to take a look. I never imagined living in the PNW - it's so alien to my mindset! But thanks to finding this forum, all kinds of mindsetty things have evolved, so maybe this can too?
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
There are entire states that are, for example, making it socially acceptable to discriminate against gays and lesbians. I can see how "No gays allowed!" signs would make for an unpleasant walk in the city.
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
mak1277, I was a much younger self when I lived in those conservative enclaves (true story: I lived in Memphis for 18 months before I met another Democrat), and I'm much more confident now. Perhaps if I had allowed my true self out in those spots, I would have met different people and made different friends. I would like to live in a place where the gay folk we know and love would feel safe and accepted if they came to visit. I gravitate toward smaller towns, suburbs over urban OR rural, and college towns above all, because that's where I grew up and that's what I know and am comfortable with. So I'd probably choose COL and climate first, then try to narrow down to a place that felt like a good fit in other ways.
Fu Mainechu, Richmond is on the list!
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If you can put up with the absolute opposite politics in the rest of the state, the suburbs of Austin, TX seem to fit your criteria.
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If you don't mind Grey, the pacific northwest. I lived in Corvallis, OR for grad school which is half hour from Eugene, OR. Those cities are liberal, bikeable, no huge temperature extremes, beautiful greenery. In the early 2000's Portland was cheap and I kinda wish I had settled there. Oh well.
I feel lucky I bought my house in Portland in the late 90s. I could actually afford a house IN the city (not 'burbs) on a salary that wasn't super high. Now I see 2 bed/1 bath houses that need work going for $400K. For people in the Bay area this probably sounds like a steal, but Portland doesn't have tons of high paying jobs. It's become pretty unaffordable due to the fact that it meets most of the above criteria. It has decent weather (no 3 feet of snow) and is quite liberal.
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
The political climate is hugely important for me, too. The political landscape can define all kinds of things that impact people on a daily basis. I wouldn't live in a state that denies my daughters control of their own bodies or prohibits the teaching of science in schools. That kind of thing is way, way more important to me that the climate.
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
mak1277, I was a much younger self when I lived in those conservative enclaves (true story: I lived in Memphis for 18 months before I met another Democrat), and I'm much more confident now. Perhaps if I had allowed my true self out in those spots, I would have met different people and made different friends. I would like to live in a place where the gay folk we know and love would feel safe and accepted if they came to visit. I gravitate toward smaller towns, suburbs over urban OR rural, and college towns above all, because that's where I grew up and that's what I know and am comfortable with. So I'd probably choose COL and climate first, then try to narrow down to a place that felt like a good fit in other ways.
Thanks...that makes sense to me.
I guess my curiosity is based on the fact that I don't really self-identify as a member of a particular party, nor does it ever cross my mind to even wonder what political party others belong to. I don't know what party any of my co-workers belong to, or even most of my good friends and family (I mean, I could guess, but it's not something I care about enough to ask). So if I lived in Memphis, I'd never know that I didn't know any Democrats.
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Aren't there liberal and conservative people everywhere? I read a lot of people saying they want a certain overall political/social environment in which to relocate, but I would think you could find like-minded people almost anywhere nowadays.
I can't imagine rejecting an otherwise excellent place to live because of the political landscape in that place...maybe it's because I've never felt impacted by political and social views of those around me.
mak1277, I was a much younger self when I lived in those conservative enclaves (true story: I lived in Memphis for 18 months before I met another Democrat), and I'm much more confident now. Perhaps if I had allowed my true self out in those spots, I would have met different people and made different friends. I would like to live in a place where the gay folk we know and love would feel safe and accepted if they came to visit. I gravitate toward smaller towns, suburbs over urban OR rural, and college towns above all, because that's where I grew up and that's what I know and am comfortable with. So I'd probably choose COL and climate first, then try to narrow down to a place that felt like a good fit in other ways.
Thanks...that makes sense to me.
I guess my curiosity is based on the fact that I don't really self-identify as a member of a particular party, nor does it ever cross my mind to even wonder what political party others belong to. I don't know what party any of my co-workers belong to, or even most of my good friends and family (I mean, I could guess, but it's not something I care about enough to ask). So if I lived in Memphis, I'd never know that I didn't know any Democrats.
Interesting, mak1277. The Democrats I met in Memphis were all women I already knew. We were sitting around the kitchen table one night, just us chickens, working on scrapbooks. I don't remember how the "secret" came out, but in a big noisy rush of laughter and recognition and appreciation, it turned out that all five of us were Democrats. None of us had any inkling that the others were. We'd talked about our kids, family trips, what we were scrapbooking - keeping everything on the surface - for MONTHS. Once that dam broke, though, they became my closest friends, and I still keep in touch with several of them even though we moved away from Memphis in 2007. I will never forget the feeling I got that night, as if I'd been wandering, coasting, but then finally found an anchor to hold on to.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
We lived in Durham when we first married (I worked in Chapel Hill, he worked in Raleigh and we split the difference), and my dad now lives in Durham too. There are still nice neighborhoods of old mill houses that people have fixed up. Small houses, small yards, sidewalks. Very appealing. And we have friends who've found similar neighborhoods in Carrboro. Chapel Hill feels trafficky and crowded to me now, especially compared to what it was like when I was a kid in the 70s.
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
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Houston and Dallas are substantial urban centers with plenty of liberals and even more socially liberal people. Both have relatively low cost of living (though Houston really bumped up over the last five years).
I've more Confederate flags in the small metro area where I live in southeastern Pennsylvania and in western New York State where I went to college than I remember seeing growing up in Houston and Dallas.
If you think, as somebody said above, that everywhere outside of deep-blue urban centers is Confederate flags and trailer parks, you are leading a thoroughly blinkered existence.
I can only comment on the Dallas area... It depends on what "mild climate" means. If mild means "not frigid" -- it qualifies. If it means "not too hot, not too cold" -- it doesn't. Dallas is such an enormous heat-gathering concrete slab. When Texas hits its 100+ degree days, Dallas is just almost unbearable. If you get a few miles away (or at least out of the gumbo dirt so there are trees and shade) ... it gets more bearable.
But yes: there are liberals and conservatives (and some of us libertarians!) in the area. It's big enough that you can find friends of any ilk. But if you're hoping for a liberal climate in state politics, you probably won't find it. I suspect we will be among the last to allow gay marriage, unless the Supreme Court fixes that for the whole nation. (Oddly enough, there is a bill to legalize pot in session, but I expect it to die before it makes it to the floor.)
And yes: Dallas is a total win on CoL. Maybe not Dallas proper (although it's still way better than a lot of the nation). But the suburbs are super cheap for housing, food, gas, etc.
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
Some states (Tennessee and Louisiana, to name two) allow creationism to be taught in public schools in science classes as an "alternative" to evolution:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html)
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
Some states (Tennessee and Louisiana, to name two) allow creationism to be taught in public schools in science classes as an "alternative" to evolution:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html)
Does "alternative" mean "in addition to" or "instead of"?
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What about Savannah, Georgia? I've only been a visitor, but a good friend lives there and it seems to be pretty awesome. Its on my list.
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Still wondering what state prohibits teaching science in the classroom? This was hyperbole? My kids went to school for a while down in the bible belt and had what I thought was a fairly progressive curriculum in the public school.
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Yeah, I was trying to find a link to those "No Gays Allowed" signs, too mentioned upthread...
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
Some states (Tennessee and Louisiana, to name two) allow creationism to be taught in public schools in science classes as an "alternative" to evolution:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html)
Does "alternative" mean "in addition to" or "instead of"?
My understanding (based on Texas) is that they teach both. The bad news is they give them equal scientific footing. Texas also really sets lots of the standards for all the other states -- not because we are better, but because we are such a huge book buyer, we tilt the scales for the publishing.
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What about Savannah, Georgia? I've only been a visitor, but a good friend lives there and it seems to be pretty awesome. Its on my list.
Just be aware of the paper mill stench that can permeate the air in Savannah, and in other southern coastal cities with these paper mills. Major turnoff when I visited!
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My kids also went to school in San Antonio for four years - we do get around. They didn't learn creationism in their science classes. This was pretty recently.
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begood I'm from Northern California and too have been searching for a similar retirement area. I did lots of research and checking places out. Here are a few suggestions:
Boise Idaho
Prescott Arizona
Silver City New Mexico
These are all really good options for what you seek. Ultimately I decided to just retire where I'm from because I can afford it and can't beat the weather and lack of natural disasters. Good Luck!
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What about Savannah, Georgia? I've only been a visitor, but a good friend lives there and it seems to be pretty awesome. Its on my list.
Just be aware of the paper mill stench that can permeate the air in Savannah, and in other southern coastal cities with these paper mills. Major turnoff when I visited!
I am very familiar with that malodorous odor! It's possible my mister will nix coastal cities because of hurricane threat , which is kind of too bad, because I love the Gulf coast of Florida - Sarasota down to Naples. Fabulous winters, but stultifying summers.
I think, and I could be wrong, that the "No Gays Allowed" sign isn't something that's already happened that you could Google, but rather a trend that's troubling could actually happen, ffs. See bacchi's post below. Louisiana is the latest state to take steps in this direction - doubling down on their "right" to discriminate. If I have a choice about where to invest myself - my money, my time, my energy - I'd rather do it in a state that's not working really damn hard to codify discrimination.
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begood I'm from Northern California and too have been searching for a similar retirement area. I did lots of research and checking places out. Here are a few suggestions:
Boise Idaho
Prescott Arizona
Silver City New Mexico
These are all really good options for what you seek. Ultimately I decided to just retire where I'm from because I can afford it and can't beat the weather and lack of natural disasters. Good Luck!
I love Prescott. My AZ cousin says prices are going up up up there too, because of an influx of Californians!
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Yeah, I was trying to find a link to those "No Gays Allowed" signs, too mentioned upthread...
Surprised you don't know about this, considering you're close to one of those states.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=no+gays+allowed+signs
the House Speaker and the Senate Pro Tem admitted that No Gay signs would be allowed in Indiana.
True, Indiana is supposedly going to "clarify" what that new law means. Of course, there's also Oklahoma and Louisiana and Arkansas and Virginia with similar bills or laws.
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begood I'm from Northern California and too have been searching for a similar retirement area. I did lots of research and checking places out. Here are a few suggestions:
Boise Idaho
Prescott Arizona
Silver City New Mexico
These are all really good options for what you seek. Ultimately I decided to just retire where I'm from because I can afford it and can't beat the weather and lack of natural disasters. Good Luck!
Yes, it's true. I really like it there too, but my family is in the Sacramento area and I love my house and neighbors so I'll just stay put.
I love Prescott. My AZ cousin says prices are going up up up there too, because of an influx of Californians!
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If you are looking at Nashville, the areas that are cool/funky are appreciating rapidly in price right now. One neighborhood a kilometer m/l from the downtown courthouse had a 3200 square ft. townhouse sell for slightly more than 1,000,000 last week (new luxury construction). When I first started running through that area 6-7 years ago, people were shocked that I was stupid enough to do it after dark. There are other options, but anything in the inner core/downtown proper is being looked at by developers to tear down and make into townhomes or condos. The City is great though, and the airport is very user friendly.
And I don't know what to make of this:
mak1277, I was a much younger self when I lived in those conservative enclaves (true story: I lived in Memphis for 18 months before I met another Democrat), and I'm much more confident now. ....
Memphis as a whole has been consistently democratic since Crump's time in the early 20th century. I can't find a handy list, but suspect that every mayor for the past 100 years has been a democrat. No matter where you end up selecting, you'll want to avoid buying in an area that is so different than the rest of the City. (I'm guessing East Side of Memphis, or one of "those" suburbs?)
Anyway, good luck with your search.
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I live near Asheville and have been so many times so I'll chime in concerning your three requirements:
Mild Climate - Check. Winters can be a little rough, but not nearly as bad as some of the higher elevations in Western NC
LCOL - Yes and no. There's plenty of food options available. There's an ALDI, Trader Joe's, regional markets, etc. Housing near the core - not cheap. Housing south and west - yes, much more affordable.
Socially Liberal - Very much so.
I love Asheville and it's definitely my favorite city in NC. A close second would be Charlotte. I'm not a huge fan of Raleigh - it's just hot and too spread out for me, though I'd live there if I was banking on a career. Overall livability goes to Asheville though.
The only problem with Asheville is the main industry I would say is tourism, which attracts retirees and drives the cost up since everyone has already figured out it is an amazing place to be. There aren't many tech or other opportunities in Asheville, so I feel like there is a huge gap between rich and poor there, which leads to other problems as you can imagine.
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We're currently living in Austin, but feel it's too damn hot in the summers and traffic is beginning to feel more and more like LA traffic, one of the reasons I left LA was to get away from the traffic. I hesitate to mention where we're headed next because I don't want others to discover it and drive up the prices before we move there, but I'll do it anyway...Ashland, OR.
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I'm following this thread with interest. I live in California and I love the climate, but the COL is just too high to retire here. I don't mind cold or snowy winters as long as they aren't really long. But I can't tolerate extreme heat or extreme humidity (Mississippi is right out). We are kind of thinking about Colorado, though we've only been to Denver together once.
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Yeah, I was trying to find a link to those "No Gays Allowed" signs, too mentioned upthread...
Surprised you don't know about this, considering you're close to one of those states.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=no+gays+allowed+signs
the House Speaker and the Senate Pro Tem admitted that No Gay signs would be allowed in Indiana.
True, Indiana is supposedly going to "clarify" what that new law means. Of course, there's also Oklahoma and Louisiana and Arkansas and Virginia with similar bills or laws.
This appears awful on the surface, but perhaps reality is less bad. Here's a quote from one of the lmgtfy links, highlights added:
“You guys have said repeatedly that we shouldn’t be able to discriminate against anyone, but if you just ignore the existence of this law, can’t we already do that now? Can’t so-and-so in Richmond put a sign up and say ‘No Gays Allowed?'” she asked. “That’s not against the law, correct?”
“It would depend,” Bosma replied. “If you were in a community that had a human rights ordinance that wouldn’t be the case.”
In other words, the ability to discriminate against a non-protected class already exists (protected classes get created specifically to prevent discrimination against them). E.g., it would also not be against the law to put up a sign and say "Long-haired freaky people need not apply" (unless long-haired freaky people are a protected class in that jurisdiction).
Fortunately, the "No Gays Allowed" signs are present more as strawmen in political fights rather than actual things in real life.
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Here is some hard data for weather:
The dreariness index: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/dreary-weather.html
Picture Perfect weather days: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/picture-perfect-weather-days.html
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Here is some hard data for weather:
The dreariness index: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/dreary-weather.html
Picture Perfect weather days: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/picture-perfect-weather-days.html
It can't be right that the bulk of Alaska only goes above 60 degrees less than 10 times a year. Or does that mean that they have more 80+ degree days than I thought?
So many of the places on there that have 60 to 80 days of "Picture Perfect" weather a year also have blazing hot weather for a large portion of the spring, summer, and fall.
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In other words, the ability to discriminate against a non-protected class already exists (protected classes get created specifically to prevent discrimination against them). E.g., it would also not be against the law to put up a sign and say "Long-haired freaky people need not apply" (unless long-haired freaky people are a protected class in that jurisdiction).
Of course.
Don't you think it's important that a state legislature has actually codified it, though? That is, if you're looking for a place to live, that would be something to consider, especially if you were gay or had gay friends? That's what this thread is about, after all. Some people may not want to live in an anti-science state, or a state that creates laws that condone discrimination.
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Fort Collins Colorado
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Don't you think it's important that a state legislature has actually codified it, though? That is, if you're looking for a place to live, that would be something to consider, especially if you were gay or had gay friends? That's what this thread is about, after all. Some people may not want to live in an anti-science state, or a state that creates laws that condone discrimination.
I think some fraction of ~half the people in this country live their lives in either real or feigned outrage at all of the other half. One can find repulsive examples of humanity inhabiting any given extreme of the political map. I can't tell whether it's the Republican pot or the Democrat kettle or vice versa.
Fortunately the population density is high enough, and the political leanings of the country closely separated enough, that one can find a good circle of friends pretty much anywhere one wants to live.
In the very specific example of a gay couple wishing to marry, then finding a jurisdiction allowing that would be paramount. Otherwise, I worry about the tolerance of people seeking a homogenous culture mirroring their own beliefs 100%.
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If you are looking at Nashville, the areas that are cool/funky are appreciating rapidly in price right now. One neighborhood a kilometer m/l from the downtown courthouse had a 3200 square ft. townhouse sell for slightly more than 1,000,000 last week (new luxury construction). When I first started running through that area 6-7 years ago, people were shocked that I was stupid enough to do it after dark. There are other options, but anything in the inner core/downtown proper is being looked at by developers to tear down and make into townhomes or condos. The City is great though, and the airport is very user friendly.
And I don't know what to make of this:
mak1277, I was a much younger self when I lived in those conservative enclaves (true story: I lived in Memphis for 18 months before I met another Democrat), and I'm much more confident now. ....
Memphis as a whole has been consistently democratic since Crump's time in the early 20th century. I can't find a handy list, but suspect that every mayor for the past 100 years has been a democrat. No matter where you end up selecting, you'll want to avoid buying in an area that is so different than the rest of the City. (I'm guessing East Side of Memphis, or one of "those" suburbs?)
Anyway, good luck with your search.
Democratic yes, but not socially liberal. The core city votes democratic but is largely anti-gay, anti-atheist, and generally opposed to a number of things that are socially liberal. The Democratic coalition in Memphis (excluding the suburbs) is largely comprised of a fairly large African-American community (63% of the population), which sensibly votes for the non-racist party here. In addition, the University of Memphis is a bastion of moderation and that probably is a part of the votes for Democrats. Finally there is a fairly effective Democratic machine in Memphis. Recently Memphis has been acquiring wealthier Republican suburbs and forcibly incorporating them into itself so I wonder what effect this will have on the city's politics long term.
For myself I'm looking at New Mexico for that trifecta, but I'm not sure that deserts are what you mean by mild climate.
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In the very specific example of a gay couple wishing to marry, then finding a jurisdiction allowing that would be paramount. Otherwise, I worry about the tolerance of people seeking a homogenous culture mirroring their own beliefs 100%.
Nobody here (especially not me, the OP) is talking about seeking a homogeneous culture mirroring their own beliefs 100%. I've lived in more conservative (read: "not-socially-liberal") areas and I've lived in more liberal areas. Of the two, I'm more at home in the areas that skew toward the liberal end of the spectrum. So--like most of us, I imagine--when I picture where I want to retire, it's to a place where I think I'll feel comfortable. That's all.
It is all too easy to imagine NC being next on the list for these "religious freedom" laws. It's the only place I can still imagine moving to EVEN IF they codify discrimination, if only to work from the inside out to right that ship. NC is the home of my heart.
As you can tell by all the references to FEELINGS, this is an emotional topic for me.
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There are also a lot of variations among conservatives. Traditionally, Southern conservatism was more values/Christianity based and western conservatism was more fiscally/anti-government micromanagement based. If you look at the religious affiliation numbers, Washington State is one of the least-churched states in the country. (There are certainly some loud-mouth conservative Christians around, including some in elected office, but most of their political fights seem to center around how much the Seattle area wants to spend on itself.) So maybe the more rural areas of the Northwest? Oregon has run into some problems with taxes, though, in terms of limiting taxation so much that government services are really suffering.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
We lived in Durham when we first married (I worked in Chapel Hill, he worked in Raleigh and we split the difference), and my dad now lives in Durham too. There are still nice neighborhoods of old mill houses that people have fixed up. Small houses, small yards, sidewalks. Very appealing. And we have friends who've found similar neighborhoods in Carrboro. Chapel Hill feels trafficky and crowded to me now, especially compared to what it was like when I was a kid in the 70s.
I work for a company based in Durham, and it's #1 on my list of places to move if I ever want to leave Chicago or Texas. It helps that I have a lot of friends there who are very excited about the city.
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I had never considered Oregon as a possible retirement location, but it seems like it could be a good idea for us if family location stops being a consideration. I loved the growing up in the Seattle area except for the DARK DARK winters. Seems like Oregon could be a milder alternative.
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Nobody here (especially not me, the OP) is talking about seeking a homogeneous culture mirroring their own beliefs 100%. I've lived in more conservative (read: "not-socially-liberal") areas and I've lived in more liberal areas. Of the two, I'm more at home in the areas that skew toward the liberal end of the spectrum. So--like most of us, I imagine--when I picture where I want to retire, it's to a place where I think I'll feel comfortable. That's all.
It is all too easy to imagine NC being next on the list for these "religious freedom" laws. It's the only place I can still imagine moving to EVEN IF they codify discrimination, if only to work from the inside out to right that ship. NC is the home of my heart.
As you can tell by all the references to FEELINGS, this is an emotional topic for me.
Agreed, the 100% comment was likely overkill. And, all other things being equal, one can understand the "I'd rather live where people agree with me" mindset.
It still bothers me (yes, it's a personal thought - YMMV) that as we have become a more mobile society, some have used that mobility to self-assemble in like-minded areas - leading to more "us vs. them" perceptions.
Anyway, this is off topic for the thread so I'll stop here and wish you all the best in finding the ideal trifecta you seek. Seems there have been many good ideas offered already - maybe you'll need multiple homes...? ;)
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Nobody here (especially not me, the OP) is talking about seeking a homogeneous culture mirroring their own beliefs 100%. I've lived in more conservative (read: "not-socially-liberal") areas and I've lived in more liberal areas. Of the two, I'm more at home in the areas that skew toward the liberal end of the spectrum. So--like most of us, I imagine--when I picture where I want to retire, it's to a place where I think I'll feel comfortable. That's all.
It is all too easy to imagine NC being next on the list for these "religious freedom" laws. It's the only place I can still imagine moving to EVEN IF they codify discrimination, if only to work from the inside out to right that ship. NC is the home of my heart.
As you can tell by all the references to FEELINGS, this is an emotional topic for me.
Agreed, the 100% comment was likely overkill. And, all other things being equal, one can understand the "I'd rather live where people agree with me" mindset.
It still bothers me (yes, it's a personal thought - YMMV) that as we have become a more mobile society, some have used that mobility to self-assemble in like-minded areas - leading to more "us vs. them" perceptions.
Anyway, this is off topic for the thread so I'll stop here and wish you all the best in finding the ideal trifecta you seek. Seems there have been many good ideas offered already - maybe you'll need multiple homes...? ;)
Thanks, MDM! I have indeed gotten a variety of new places to research! Our mobility (we moved 5 times in 17 years) ended up taking us away from family, familiar culture, the climate we loved. I think a big part of me just wants to go "home".
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It sounds like you are set on the East Coast, but I haven't seen much discussion of New Mexico, so I thought I'd share my thoughts.
COL: pretty low in most areas, though Santa Fe and Taos are more expensive. In Albuquerque, a 2-3 BR house can range from 120k to 500k (and up) in the ritzier sections.
Climate: depends where in the state you are. I lived in Albuquerque, so I'll tell you about its climate. Summers are hot, yes, BUT because of the high elevation (4000-6000 ft) late summer evenings can get down to 60F, and mid-day temps generally hover around 80-90F. Also, almost no humidity makes it much more bearable than a hot summer on the East Coast. Winters can get cold, and it generally snows two to three times each season, with snow melting within a day. Daytime winter temps can get to 50-60F even in the middle of winter. In the higher elevations, snow accumulates more and stays a lot longer, so you see snow on the mountain tops most of the season. As you go north in the state, elevation increases and winters are a bit longer. As you go south, elevation decreases and winters are shorter/warmer. The thing I love best about NM is the sun. It is almost always shining. You get so you actually look forward to the rain because it comes so rarely.
Political: The bigger cities in NM are pretty darn liberal. As you move away from the cities into smaller towns, they are more conservative/libertarian. I like to think of NM as Arizona's liberal sibling. I lived in probably the most liberal part of Albuquerque: Nob Hill, near the university (UNM). It's a very nice walkable area with lots of shops and restaurants.
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It sounds like you are set on the East Coast, but I haven't seen much discussion of New Mexico, so I thought I'd share my thoughts.
That does sound like a pretty nice place to live! I'll add it to my list! I worry about the drought in all those southwest spots. We spent a week in AZ in March, and it's painfully clear to me that at some point, there's just not going to be enough water to go around. What then?
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It sounds like you are set on the East Coast, but I haven't seen much discussion of New Mexico, so I thought I'd share my thoughts.
That does sound like a pretty nice place to live! I'll add it to my list! I worry about the drought in all those southwest spots. We spent a week in AZ in March, and it's painfully clear to me that at some point, there's just not going to be enough water to go around. What then?
We have family in Phoenix as well, and this same thing gets me every time we visit. A few years back my relative was sending us job listings in the city, in the hopes of us maybe moving there, and I didn't have the heart to tell her that, barring necessity, I would never choose to live in a sprawling city in a desert.
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Sheperdstown, West Virginia
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+1 for Nashville. We're getting Google Fiber!
https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/ (https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/)
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You could look at Lawrence, Kansas.
It kinda sorta meets your criteria.
Low cost of living - Definitely. Not the lowest of the low, you'd have to go elsewhere in Kansas for that, but still pretty good.
Mild Climate - Sort of. Mild Winters. Mild Spring and Fall. OMG SWELTERING SUMMER. June through August, you're looking at 90F+ and during the hottest weeks, over 100F. A lot of humidity too. But when the weather is good - lots of bike trails, lots of outdoor events, a lake or two pretty close by, great Farmer's Market, really nice downtown area.
Socially liberal - Well, Lawrence itself is really liberal. There are three counties that always go blue - and Lawrence is in one of them. But the rest of Kansas - there's some crazy right wingers around. I hesitate to call them Republicans, even, because they're on the far right of the crazy scale. Really socially conservative. That's frustrating for a lot of Lawrencians, but overall the social conservativism doesn't really bleed into the city. So, for example, while our state legislature would be happy to pass a law saying you can have an anti-gay sign posted, you would never actually see that in Lawrence.
It's about 50 minutes to the nearest international airport (in Kansas City), and of course all the other stuff Kansas City has to offer for day trips, etc. If you want to lean toward a larger city, Kansas City actually has a fair amount going for it. More fiscally conservative, but without a ton of crazy.
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Here is some hard data for weather:
The dreariness index: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/dreary-weather.html
Picture Perfect weather days: http://us-climate.blogspot.com/2015/03/picture-perfect-weather-days.html
It can't be right that the bulk of Alaska only goes above 60 degrees less than 10 times a year. Or does that mean that they have more 80+ degree days than I thought?
So many of the places on there that have 60 to 80 days of "Picture Perfect" weather a year also have blazing hot weather for a large portion of the spring, summer, and fall.
No, there are not many 80+ days. :) But, 60 feels hotter when the sun is out...
Also, I have found that liberal areas vary just as much as conservative areas in regards to the cultural focus. The very liberal areas on the east coast feel much more comfortable to me than the very liberal areas in the PNW. Granola crunchy composting vs militant social equality. Love them both, but they are different...
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+1 for Nashville. We're getting Google Fiber!
https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/ (https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/)
Ooh, I got a little tingle, rubic! ;) They are bringing Google Fiber to the Triangle area of NC too... I wonder if it's coming to the more LCOL areas like Carrboro too?
Allie says: "Granola crunchy composting vs militant social equality. Love them both, but they are different..."
I'm in a spot currently where I'm blessed with both versions. I tell you, if it weren't for the winters and the HCOL, I'd just stay put. And I may end up doing that and "wintering" somewhere else - central FL or NC are the most likely candidates, though AZ would also be a contender for that kind of short-term (3 months a year?) stay.
I'll look at Fort Collins, CO too. I would probably become a dirty old woman, though, eyeing up the USAF boys.
And thanks for the info on Lawrence, KS, Cpa Cat - I do love a university town...
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We moved here (Greensboro, NC) from NY and while we're not looking to go back to NY, we are looking to get the hell out of here! After reading your wants, Greensboro may do especially since your from NC to begin with. They have an international airport with no waiting and you know NC so it should work for you. There really aren't many different cultures here and we are Latin so we miss the culture as well as others that just aren't here. Since we don't "look" Latin, when someone from here finds out, how sad is it that the only Latin they know is Mexican?!?! It's hard to make friends here and we think it's just the cultural differences from upbringing to life exposures or lack there of and in all fairness it's on both sides. We don't hunt, although I did as a child, its not something I am into. Not into guns and I agree its your right, (I have been around them, Dad was a cop) I don't want to go to the range and bust few rounds, I do like motorcycles but not enough to pay for one. We would like to head to Volusia County, FL. We figure if we are going to be bored, let it be near a beach. We like the beach, and feel that the lifestyle here coupled with the thought process is just...ummm...too different, yes, different then what we are accustomed to.
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+1 for Nashville. We're getting Google Fiber!
https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/ (https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/)
Ooh, I got a little tingle, rubic! ;) They are bringing Google Fiber to the Triangle area of NC too... I wonder if it's coming to the more LCOL areas like Carrboro too
Yes to google fiber in Carrboro, but LCOL?!?
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+1 for Nashville. We're getting Google Fiber!
https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/ (https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/)
Ooh, I got a little tingle, rubic! ;) They are bringing Google Fiber to the Triangle area of NC too... I wonder if it's coming to the more LCOL areas like Carrboro too
Yes to google fiber in Carrboro, but LCOL?!?
Compared to Chapel Hill and Cary, I guess is what I was thinking...
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We moved here (Greensboro, NC) from NY and while we're not looking to go back to NY, we are looking to get the hell out of here! After reading your wants, Greensboro may do especially since your from NC to begin with. They have an international airport with no waiting and you know NC so it should work for you. There really aren't many different cultures here and we are Latin so we miss the culture as well as others that just aren't here. Since we don't "look" Latin, when someone from here finds out, how sad is it that the only Latin they know is Mexican?!?! It's hard to make friends here and we think it's just the cultural differences from upbringing to life exposures or lack there of and in all fairness it's on both sides. We don't hunt, although I did as a child, its not something I am into. Not into guns and I agree its your right, (I have been around them, Dad was a cop) I don't want to go to the range and bust few rounds, I do like motorcycles but not enough to pay for one. We would like to head to Volusia County, FL. We figure if we are going to be bored, let it be near a beach. We like the beach, and feel that the lifestyle here coupled with the thought process is just...ummm...too different, yes, different then what we are accustomed to.
Ah yes, pac68, I know Greensboro well! I lived there for eight years in two different stints. It is on our list because 1) we know it so well; 2) it has school/church that we're comfortable with; 3) we could buy the house of our dreams. But I can definitely see that it would be a hard place to move to if you weren't familiar with it. It's much more... Southern... for lack of a better term, than Chapel Hill, Charlotte, Asheville. Even with five colleges and universities in the metro area, it veers conservative.
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There really aren't many different cultures here and we are Latin so we miss the culture as well as others that just aren't here. Since we don't "look" Latin, when someone from here finds out, how sad is it that the only Latin they know is Mexican?!?! It's hard to make friends here and we think it's just the cultural differences from upbringing to life exposures or lack there of and in all fairness it's on both sides. We don't hunt, although I did as a child, its not something I am into. Not into guns and I agree its your right, (I have been around them, Dad was a cop) I don't want to go to the range and bust few rounds, I do like motorcycles but not enough to pay for one. We would like to head to Volusia County, FL.
This is one of the issues on the top of my mind when thinking about places to go. Wherever we go, my plan is to get to a place with a good tight community and an axillary cord to flip on the salsa off Pandora.
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It's much more... Southern... for lack of a better term, than Chapel Hill, Charlotte, Asheville. Even with five colleges and universities in the metro area, it veers conservative.
[/quote]
LOL Southern conservative. Great description!
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There really aren't many different cultures here and we are Latin so we miss the culture as well as others that just aren't here. Since we don't "look" Latin, when someone from here finds out, how sad is it that the only Latin they know is Mexican?!?! It's hard to make friends here and we think it's just the cultural differences from upbringing to life exposures or lack there of and in all fairness it's on both sides. We don't hunt, although I did as a child, its not something I am into. Not into guns and I agree its your right, (I have been around them, Dad was a cop) I don't want to go to the range and bust few rounds, I do like motorcycles but not enough to pay for one. We would like to head to Volusia County, FL.
This is one of the issues on the top of my mind when thinking about places to go. Wherever we go, my plan is to get to a place with a good tight community and an axillary cord to flip on the salsa off Pandora.
LOL exactly. Pernil, Por favor.
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How about Richmond, VA? I have some friends there. It's pretty inexpensive, increasingly bike-friendly, increasingly liberal, short winters, and close to lots of stuff (train to DC, 1.5 hr drive to beach, 1.5 hr drive to mountains, has a good-sized airport, etc).
+1
I've lived in RVA for almost 15 years now and the city is an increasingly cool place. We have Va Commonwealth University to thank for that VCU (30,000 students +) is well known for its arts/ music/ fashion schools (and engineering and medicine, but those don't make RVA cool). As a result, we have a booming population of creative Millennials. We also have the James River running right through the middle of the city. Kayaking, paddleboarding, swimming, and miles of hiking trails are right in the downtown core. I've gone for an 8 mile hike along the river on a weekday morning and been at my desk by 9 AM. The craft beer movement is thriving. We just landed Stone Brewing's east coast brewing/ biergarden/ distributing hub and that will be built along the river. There are festivals nearly year round -- typically outside from April to October -- and usually free. Bacon and Bourbon. X-Games. Watermelon. Tomatoes. Oysters. St. Patty's Day. Folk music. You name it, we'll have a festival about it.
RVA is awesome and unlike some of the states on your list (KY, TN, NC, and TX) our statewide politics are moderate. We're a swing state with a Dem. governor (Obama won here both times). Any VA politician knows to avoid the extremes (except one notorious delegate but he's a loon and everyone knows it).
RVA is the capital so our economy hums along pretty nicely even when times are tough and the infrastructure is better than average. During the recession, our unemployment never got over 8%. The COL is amazingly low for such a cool place and salaries are strong for professionals. Housing is reasonable with lots of different choices. Living downtown is a very popular option right now. Oh, and VCU's medical/ dental/ oral surgery/ orthodontia schools are an amazing resource. Both my kids had braces done (including retainers) for $4,000, each with interest free payments (about $3k below market).
I LOVE RVA. Let me know if you want to know more.
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Here's my list:
1). mild climate
2). LCOL
3). liberal
4). bike friendly
5). MMM lives nearby
My "dream" city? Fort Collins, CO
Some may argue the COL isn't very low, but compared to my city...it is significantly lower and therefore highly appealing to me.
We visit my mom in Ft. Collins every summer...usually during 'bike to work' week, and absolutely love it.
Anyhoo...last summer we got to tour the New Belgium Brewery. They told us they were building a second plant in Asheville, NC because it reminded them of Ft. Collins (eco- and bike friendly, liberal, etc). I thought that was pretty cool.
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How about Chatham Co. (the northern part) in North Carolina? Housing is much less expensive than Chapel Hill (probably on par with Durham) and you are still quite close to all of the things that make this area so fun. At the most northern part of the county you are probably only 4-5 miles from the UNC campus.
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We're currently living in Austin, but feel it's too damn hot in the summers and traffic is beginning to feel more and more like LA traffic, one of the reasons I left LA was to get away from the traffic. I hesitate to mention where we're headed next because I don't want others to discover it and drive up the prices before we move there, but I'll do it anyway...Ashland, OR.
Ashland prices have been going up for a long time.
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+1 for Nashville. We're getting Google Fiber!
https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/ (https://fiber.google.com/cities/nashville/)
Ooh, I got a little tingle, rubic! ;) They are bringing Google Fiber to the Triangle area of NC too... I wonder if it's coming to the more LCOL areas like Carrboro too
Yes to google fiber in Carrboro, but LCOL?!?
Compared to Chapel Hill and Cary, I guess is what I was thinking...
Cary's cheaper than either Chapel Hill or Carrboro, from what I've seen.
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We just moved to the southern suburbs of Nashville. So far I have mixed feelings. It is a mild climate, but they had a rough winter with lots of ice. The COL is actually surprisingly high- especially housing. Everyone seems desperate to buy- there is a definite bubble feel to the property market. Lots of generic McMansions getting snapped up at 500-700K. Socially liberal? I'm not sure yet- I guess Nashville is, but in Brentwood and Franklin, there seem to be a lot of fervent conservatives- obvs that is limited and anecdotal sample size.
We were hoping this was the place, but maybe not. NC, Oregon maybe. Anyone know where the NEXT hot real estate city will be? ;)
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
Some states (Tennessee and Louisiana, to name two) allow creationism to be taught in public schools in science classes as an "alternative" to evolution:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html)
Does "alternative" mean "in addition to" or "instead of"?
My understanding (based on Texas) is that they teach both. The bad news is they give them equal scientific footing. Texas also really sets lots of the standards for all the other states -- not because we are better, but because we are such a huge book buyer, we tilt the scales for the publishing.
I took two years of biology at a public high school in Texas around 2004. The class was 99.999% straight science, with a one-sentence disclaimer from the teacher, complete with eye-roll, that not everybody believes in the origin of life we were being taught.
My entire class got 4s and 5s on the AP Biology exam.
If you as a parent cannot counter that level of doubt you have bigger problems.
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I would put weather and COL on my list for sure as I too never really care about people's politics. I am pretty openminded. I don't want to listen to only people that think exactly like me. I have moved around lots due to dh's work and have complained about the weather and the COL but not the people. I put traffic on the list. That said, I don't want to live in a state that doesn't teach science in the schools - dare I ask what state that is?
Some states (Tennessee and Louisiana, to name two) allow creationism to be taught in public schools in science classes as an "alternative" to evolution:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html)
Does "alternative" mean "in addition to" or "instead of"?
My understanding (based on Texas) is that they teach both. The bad news is they give them equal scientific footing. Texas also really sets lots of the standards for all the other states -- not because we are better, but because we are such a huge book buyer, we tilt the scales for the publishing.
I took two years of biology at a public high school in Texas around 2004. The class was 99.999% straight science, with a one-sentence disclaimer from the teacher, complete with eye-roll, that not everybody believes in the origin of life we were being taught.
My entire class got 4s and 5s on the AP Biology exam.
If you as a parent cannot counter that level of doubt you have bigger problems.
And yet I took AP biology at a school in one of the "socially liberal" cities mentioned in this thread, circa 2005 or 2006, and there was a raging debate with creationists in the class. The teacher ended up saying, "feel free to believe what you want, but answer your test questions like you care about science." Of course, rather than my entire class getting 4s and 5s, we had 3 girls drop due to teen pregnancies and one guy leave to go to rehab. I don't really know what that says, but it somehow feels relevant.
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And yet I took AP biology at a school in one of the "socially liberal" cities mentioned in this thread, circa 2005 or 2006, and there was a raging debate with creationists in the class. The teacher ended up saying, "feel free to believe what you want, but answer your test questions like you care about science." Of course, rather than my entire class getting 4s and 5s, we had 3 girls drop due to teen pregnancies and one guy leave to go to rehab. I don't really know what that says, but it somehow feels relevant.
I also went to public high school in Texas and was SHOCKED to learn in early college that there are actually people out there who believe in literal young earth creationism. Utterly shocked. So- yes I learned real science in the Dallas area in public school.
Also, as a resident of southeast Texas these days, I'm chuckling at the idea that Kansas has mild winters.... :)
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Five Man Electric Band
E.g., it would also not be against the law to put up a sign and say "Long-haired freaky people need not apply" (unless long-haired freaky people are a protected class in that jurisdiction).
Seriously, people put up signs like this? Maybe I will hate the language police a tiny bit less (c'est L'Office de la Langue Francais, vraiment ). Not a lot less, mind you.
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Five Man Electric Band
E.g., it would also not be against the law to put up a sign and say "Long-haired freaky people need not apply" (unless long-haired freaky people are a protected class in that jurisdiction).
Seriously, people put up signs like this? Maybe I will hate the language police a tiny bit less (c'est L'Office de la Langue Francais, vraiment ). Not a lot less, mind you.
No. Most people don't need laws to be decent.
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I'm living in Las Vegas, which naturally runs hot in the summer, but the payoff is 8 months of pretty great weather + excellent outdoorsy stuff year round. However, I've got my eyes set on an eventual move to northern Nevada (Reno or Carson City), which is a great place to cherry pick the northern California area while enjoying low cost of Nevada living plus a very favorable climate.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
We lived in Durham when we first married (I worked in Chapel Hill, he worked in Raleigh and we split the difference), and my dad now lives in Durham too. There are still nice neighborhoods of old mill houses that people have fixed up. Small houses, small yards, sidewalks. Very appealing. And we have friends who've found similar neighborhoods in Carrboro. Chapel Hill feels trafficky and crowded to me now, especially compared to what it was like when I was a kid in the 70s.
(Outing myself) I live in Durham. I have to say Durham has been officially discovered, in that people are moving here even without jobs and the real estate prices keeps going up. Just went to a neighborhood block party, and that neighborhood sounds just what you are looking for. The way it is like anywhere, there are nice but wealthy neighborhoods you need $$ to move their but it may rather staid. And there are some neighborhoods while cheap (literally 40K houses) you don't want to live there. In between a number of neighborhoods that have modest sized but reasonably priced houses, and also borderline neighborhoods closer to Durham that you can "invest in" by buying and fixing up a house and contributing to the neighborhood by your presence. I do like the weather, except the summers (originally from midwest). If I end up living here the rest of my life might need to invest in a summer home in the mountains or farther north to escape the heat and humidity : )
Can also look into non chapel hill areas of orange county, and Hillsborough, pittsboro if you want a more rural feel.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
We lived in Durham when we first married (I worked in Chapel Hill, he worked in Raleigh and we split the difference), and my dad now lives in Durham too. There are still nice neighborhoods of old mill houses that people have fixed up. Small houses, small yards, sidewalks. Very appealing. And we have friends who've found similar neighborhoods in Carrboro. Chapel Hill feels trafficky and crowded to me now, especially compared to what it was like when I was a kid in the 70s.
(Outing myself) I live in Durham. I have to say Durham has been officially discovered, in that people are moving here even without jobs and the real estate prices keeps going up. Just went to a neighborhood block party, and that neighborhood sounds just what you are looking for. The way it is like anywhere, there are nice but wealthy neighborhoods you need $$ to move their but it may rather staid. And there are some neighborhoods while cheap (literally 40K houses) you don't want to live there. In between a number of neighborhoods that have modest sized but reasonably priced houses, and also borderline neighborhoods closer to Durham that you can "invest in" by buying and fixing up a house and contributing to the neighborhood by your presence. I do like the weather, except the summers (originally from midwest). If I end up living here the rest of my life might need to invest in a summer home in the mountains or farther north to escape the heat and humidity : )
Can also look into non chapel hill areas of orange county, and Hillsborough, pittsboro if you want a more rural feel.
Thanks, partgypsy (and elicoolio for the rec of northern Chatham County). The little towns - Apex, Hillsborough, Carrboro, Pittsboro - all have potential since nothing in the Triangle is super far from RDU. I also like Jamestown and the Guilford College area in Greensboro - west of downtown Greensboro, toward the airport.
I really appreciate the suggestions people have made because it is absolutely my natural bent to look at these areas in NC - Triangle, Triad, Charlotte, Asheville - because they're familiar and comfortable. We moved away from NC in 1996, so it's been almost 20 years (how in the heck did THAT happen???), and part of me has always wanted to go back. But I've grown up a lot since then too, and so I think it's a worthwhile effort to look OUTWARD instead of BACKWARD and see what else the big beautiful world has to offer.
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I think Asheville can be expensive because housing costs are driven up by tourism. Not sure what the availability of good-paying jobs is like, either.
I'd expand beyond Chapel Hill and think of Durham and/or Carrboro. I spent a few years in the triangle and there are lots of high-paying jobs in biotech and other fields, but still a relatively low cost of living (if you avoid rich suburbs like Cary or Apex). Very socially liberal area as well.
Definitely has mild winters good for yearlong biking. I hesitate to call the climate totally mild because the hot/humid summers are not to my liking personally.
We lived in Durham when we first married (I worked in Chapel Hill, he worked in Raleigh and we split the difference), and my dad now lives in Durham too. There are still nice neighborhoods of old mill houses that people have fixed up. Small houses, small yards, sidewalks. Very appealing. And we have friends who've found similar neighborhoods in Carrboro. Chapel Hill feels trafficky and crowded to me now, especially compared to what it was like when I was a kid in the 70s.
(Outing myself) I live in Durham. I have to say Durham has been officially discovered, in that people are moving here even without jobs and the real estate prices keeps going up. Just went to a neighborhood block party, and that neighborhood sounds just what you are looking for. The way it is like anywhere, there are nice but wealthy neighborhoods you need $$ to move their but it may rather staid. And there are some neighborhoods while cheap (literally 40K houses) you don't want to live there. In between a number of neighborhoods that have modest sized but reasonably priced houses, and also borderline neighborhoods closer to Durham that you can "invest in" by buying and fixing up a house and contributing to the neighborhood by your presence. I do like the weather, except the summers (originally from midwest). If I end up living here the rest of my life might need to invest in a summer home in the mountains or farther north to escape the heat and humidity : )
Can also look into non chapel hill areas of orange county, and Hillsborough, pittsboro if you want a more rural feel.
Thanks, partgypsy (and elicoolio for the rec of northern Chatham County). The little towns - Apex, Hillsborough, Carrboro, Pittsboro - all have potential since nothing in the Triangle is super far from RDU. I also like Jamestown and the Guilford College area in Greensboro - west of downtown Greensboro, toward the airport.
I really appreciate the suggestions people have made because it is absolutely my natural bent to look at these areas in NC - Triangle, Triad, Charlotte, Asheville - because they're familiar and comfortable. We moved away from NC in 1996, so it's been almost 20 years (how in the heck did THAT happen???), and part of me has always wanted to go back. But I've grown up a lot since then too, and so I think it's a worthwhile effort to look OUTWARD instead of BACKWARD and see what else the big beautiful world has to offer.
I think if you haven't been here in 20 years, you may be (mostly) pleasantly surprised. For example, instead of downtown being a ghost town, it is being revitalized. Granted if I was going to complain I'd say it would be more functional to have say a decent grocery store and drug store in or close to downtown than yet another fancy bakery shop, but I can't pick and choose.
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I think if you haven't been here in 20 years, you may be (mostly) pleasantly surprised. For example, instead of downtown being a ghost town, it is being revitalized. Granted if I was going to complain I'd say it would be more functional to have say a decent grocery store and drug store in or close to downtown than yet another fancy bakery shop, but I can't pick and choose.
We go back several times a year to see my father but tend to hunker down around Duke Hospital/Hillandale Rd/Club Blvd area. So we see the Ninth Street neighborhood and the area around the School of Math and Science and think, "Hey, NICE!" But I haven't been in actual downtown Durham since we used to go to Durham Bulls games back in the day at the old field - families with kids sat along the first baseline, singles and no-kid-couples along the third baseline. Beer was $1, as were hot dogs, popcorn, and peanuts. SO much fun. I'm sure I would hate the new ballfield on principle. Heck, I've never gotten used to the Dean Dome! To me, all b-ball games should be played in Carmichael!
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Subscribed in hope of new possibilities being mentioned.
Likewise.
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I found this link in a thread at Bogleheads:
Sperling's Best Places: http://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/ (http://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/)
You can put in two cities and see how they compare in terms of housing, education, crime, climate, et cetera.
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I've been researching the same thing. I came up with a few possibilities: Austin, Tx, DFW, Tx, Raleigh, NC.
All have plentiful jobs, lower cost of living, and temperate climates (most of the time).
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Maybe I misunderstood the OP's original intention, but I thought the goal was to avoid all extreme temperatures. I'm not seeing how many of the suggestions fit that bill.
For almost half the year, isn't Dallas, Atlanta, or most Southern cities pretty much an oven? I grew up in one, so I know of which I speak. I wouldn't describe the climates in these places as mild.
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I grew up in Dallas and live in southeastern PA, and I consider southeastern PA to be milder. But if you just really hate the cold, Dallas is certainly the superior choice.
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Sounds like snowbirding is the answer you seek! Now just figure out how to swing a teaching job for you you and the mister and you will be set!
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Maybe I misunderstood the OP's original intention, but I thought the goal was to avoid all extreme temperatures. I'm not seeing how many of the suggestions fit that bill.
For almost half the year, isn't Dallas, Atlanta, or most Southern cities pretty much an oven? I grew up in one, so I know of which I speak. I wouldn't describe the climates in these places as mild.
I read it as "mild meaning not cold" as opposed to "mild meaning always between 40-70".
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We're currently living in Austin, but feel it's too damn hot in the summers and traffic is beginning to feel more and more like LA traffic, one of the reasons I left LA was to get away from the traffic. I hesitate to mention where we're headed next because I don't want others to discover it and drive up the prices before we move there, but I'll do it anyway...Ashland, OR.
Have you been there in the summer? I lived in the Rogue Valley (Phoenix, OR - just a few miles north of Ashland) for 3 years and found the summers to be unbearably hot. Ashland is the nicest town in southern Oregon by far, and there is a lot to say for it, but you may be disappointed by the heat and the inversion layer that causes the air to stagnate over the valley floor. I still visit, but try avoid it in the summer. FWIW that was my only experience living outside of coastal California.
oops edited for spelling
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
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We went through a similar process a couple of years ago. We were living in the Boulder and Fort Collins areas, which we really liked, but needed to move East to be closer to family.
We were searching for a place with low cost of living, outdoor opportunities, and good music/culture.
Our list ultimately came down to Asheville, Brevard, or Roanoke, VA. After visiting Roanoke, we decided it was the best fit for our criteria, plus the people were very friendly. We ended up moving here in 2013.
Compared to Asheville, it is less socially liberal (some would even say a bit backwards in some areas), but the cost of living is MUCH lower. We have found people to be open-minded, and it is refreshing to have more diversity of thought after living in Boulder for nearly a decade.
Compared to Brevard, it's a lot less rainy and has just as many outdoor opportunities. Plus jobs were more difficult to come by in Brevard if the need came up--you would just end up driving 45 min to Asheville.
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but if OP is looking for a place for early retirement, wouldn't income tax play no role? (But I agree, it completely contributes to high COL... people forget to factor it for Oregon because COL looks low, especially with no sales tax. But our income and property taxes can be nuts).
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but if OP is looking for a place for early retirement, wouldn't income tax play no role? (But I agree, it completely contributes to high COL... people forget to factor it for Oregon because COL looks low, especially with no sales tax. But our income and property taxes can be nuts).
I (and probably many here) still plan to have income from a side gig or just from tIRA->ROTH pipeline conversions, so state income tax will still be a consideration.
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Maybe I misunderstood the OP's original intention, but I thought the goal was to avoid all extreme temperatures. I'm not seeing how many of the suggestions fit that bill.
For almost half the year, isn't Dallas, Atlanta, or most Southern cities pretty much an oven? I grew up in one, so I know of which I speak. I wouldn't describe the climates in these places as mild.
I read it as "mild meaning not cold" as opposed to "mild meaning always between 40-70".
Yes, that's what I meant, mak1277. I can deal with hot summers much more easily than I can months of cold. Probably something to do with spending my first 43 years south of the Mason-Dixon line! I can actually see doing it either way - staying in SE PA most of the year and wintering somewhere warmer OR moving somewhere warmer and spending a few weeks "up north" in the summer if it gets to be too much.
Realistically, we're not looking at much of an ER - my "live to work" mister is currently open to the idea of considering retiring at 59 or so. Our daughter would have graduated from college by then, so we would have a good sense at that point of how big a hit the stash took with all that edumacating, and what kind of shape it's in at that point.
In some ways, this is a mental health exercise for me. I don't ever want to feel stuck, if that makes sense. I'm a planner, so getting ideas for "the next step" is a fun project for me. And it seems like a great list of places to visit too - PNW, NM, CO, TX. Road trip! ;)
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We went through a similar process a couple of years ago. We were living in the Boulder and Fort Collins areas, which we really liked, but needed to move East to be closer to family.
We were searching for a place with low cost of living, outdoor opportunities, and good music/culture.
Our list ultimately came down to Asheville, Brevard, or Roanoke, VA. After visiting Roanoke, we decided it was the best fit for our criteria, plus the people were very friendly. We ended up moving here in 2013.
Compared to Asheville, it is less socially liberal (some would even say a bit backwards in some areas), but the cost of living is MUCH lower. We have found people to be open-minded, and it is refreshing to have more diversity of thought after living in Boulder for nearly a decade.
Compared to Brevard, it's a lot less rainy and has just as many outdoor opportunities. Plus jobs were more difficult to come by in Brevard if the need came up--you would just end up driving 45 min to Asheville.
So funny, blueridge, that you moved FROM one of the places people have recommended here! Thanks for the info on Roanoke!
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but if OP is looking for a place for early retirement, wouldn't income tax play no role? (But I agree, it completely contributes to high COL... people forget to factor it for Oregon because COL looks low, especially with no sales tax. But our income and property taxes can be nuts).
I (and probably many here) still plan to have income from a side gig or just from tIRA->ROTH pipeline conversions, so state income tax will still be a consideration.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks! I suppose Oregon is nice on the tax front if your overall living expenses and earnings are low- not too steep at lower incomes, but rises very sharply past the poverty line. (Is my understanding. My best year in my life so far I've earned $22k. The state pretty much sent me an apologetic card with my tax return).
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but if OP is looking for a place for early retirement, wouldn't income tax play no role? (But I agree, it completely contributes to high COL... people forget to factor it for Oregon because COL looks low, especially with no sales tax. But our income and property taxes can be nuts).
I (and probably many here) still plan to have income from a side gig or just from tIRA->ROTH pipeline conversions, so state income tax will still be a consideration.
Also, if you plan on supplementing income (or living off) taxable investments with dividend or capital gain income, most states do not tax these at preferential rates like the federal government does. So while this income is at a 0%-15% tax rate for most people, federally - tack on ordinary state tax rates. In Oregon, for example, you're looking at an additional 9% tax.
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When I think of low COL, I eliminate anywhere with state income tax. I've only lived full-time in what now could be considered purple states (Virginia, Florida), and I'd eliminate my native VA because of higher COL.
Florida has the mild temps and low COL, especially if you rent rather than own and thus avoid the two biggest Sunshine State expenses -- property tax and homeowners insurance. Gainesville probably hits your trifecta best, followed by Orlando and South Florida.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but if OP is looking for a place for early retirement, wouldn't income tax play no role? (But I agree, it completely contributes to high COL... people forget to factor it for Oregon because COL looks low, especially with no sales tax. But our income and property taxes can be nuts).
I (and probably many here) still plan to have income from a side gig or just from tIRA->ROTH pipeline conversions, so state income tax will still be a consideration.
Also, if you plan on supplementing income (or living off) taxable investments with dividend or capital gain income, most states do not tax these at preferential rates like the federal government does. So while this income is at a 0%-15% tax rate for most people, federally - tack on ordinary state tax rates. In Oregon, for example, you're looking at an additional 9% tax.
Yes, good point.
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I've heard great things about Asheville, NC
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Again, Asheville is a cool town, in a beautiful mountain setting, but it's a tourist destination, not cheap.
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Asheville is beautiful and cool, but it's also COLD in the winter, and a long-ass way on mountain roads from anything else and therefore pretty isolated.
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FWIW, my hometown of Charlottesville, VA is relatively mild, socially/politically liberal (though the state as a whole is "purple" at best), and generally a great place to live.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my previous post, it has also been "discovered" by the rich & famous as well as various lifestyle magazines, so the price of real estate is a lot higher than it used to be. Still cheaper than a lot of major metros, though, including nearby Washington DC.
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What about Savannah, Georgia? I've only been a visitor, but a good friend lives there and it seems to be pretty awesome. Its on my list.
Just be aware of the paper mill stench that can permeate the air in Savannah, and in other southern coastal cities with these paper mills. Major turnoff when I visited!
Have you visited recently? Up here in Maine most mills no longer smell. They use a different process now. In fact I bought a house in a town that I used to call "stink-peu" as a kid. That said there is one or two that still smell, so maybe. Just be sure your info is current!
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We're currently living in Austin, but feel it's too damn hot in the summers and traffic is beginning to feel more and more like LA traffic, one of the reasons I left LA was to get away from the traffic. I hesitate to mention where we're headed next because I don't want others to discover it and drive up the prices before we move there, but I'll do it anyway...Ashland, OR.
Have you been there in the summer? I lived in the Rogue Valley (Phoenix, OR - just a few miles north of Ashland) for 3 years and found the summers to be unbearably hot. Ashland is the nicest town in southern Oregon by far, and there is a lot to say for it, but you may be disappointed by the heat and the inversion layer that causes the air to stagnate over the valley floor. I still visit, but try avoid it in the summer. FWIW that was my only experience living outside of coastal California.
Davin, don't get me wrong, I know the summers are warm, but a key difference between Austin and Ashland is that Austin is terribly humid and it doesn't cool down that much in the evenings. I can take a few hours of 90-100 degree temps, as long as I know it isn't for 60+ days on end and knowing it gets cool overnight. I used to live in SoCal and trust me, that was the ideal climate, but the HCOL and tax rates rule it out for us. We feel like Ashland will be a nice compromise between the two.
oops edited for spelling
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I've only skimmed all the comments, so apologies if these suggestions have already been made.
1) Missoula, Montana. Winters aren't exactly MILD, but they're also not as cold as you might expect. They're almost certainly warmer than Pennsylvania. Summers are milder as well, due to low humidity. While the COL is a bit high for Montana, it's low relative to the country in general. And it is GORGEOUS! Lots and lots and lots of outdoor recreation opportunities, if you're into that. It's always been on our list of top five places to live.
2) Blacksburg, Virginia. Because it's in the mountains, the summers are not nearly as hot as elsewhere in the region. Winters are a bit cold, but not extreme by any means. The presence of Virginia Tech drives the COL up somewhat, but it's still pretty low. The town itself is getting quite a bit cooler. When I lived there, we spent a year living in a super-awesome cohousing community, which I'd definitely recommend checking out.
3) Boise, Idaho. This is a new addition to my list. Parts of town are more liberal than others, to be sure, but if you are anywhere near the downtown / north end / northeast side of town, you'll find some great spots and some great people. Boise is really turning into a great little city, but is still quite affordable. Climate is pretty mild, airport is pretty affordable, lots of outdoor rec opportunities, etc. I like it a lot.
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If someone finds such a place let me know. As a young gay man I had to run out to California to escape the horrible, hateful small town-minded upbringing in Sometown, USA in the midwest.
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Vancouver, WA puts you within driving distance of "keep it weird" Portland. WA has no income tax. OR has no sales tax. The weather is mild, and the COL isn't too high if you stay out of Portland proper.
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If you can put up with the absolute opposite politics in the rest of the state, the suburbs of Austin, TX seem to fit your criteria.
I'm finding more and more open minded folks where I live in the 'burbs between Ft. Worth and Dallas. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal, so I just focus on the politics I have in common with people rather than the differences, unless I want to spark a discussion. I nod along as complainypants republicans gripe about taxes and the ACA, and nod along as complainypants democrats gripe about lack of social equality. That said, the DFW metroplex fits my desire for short winters, lots of swimming pool weather, and LCOL. The property taxes are a bit stiff but while I'm still working and earning, the lack of state income tax more than makes up for that.
Texas does have it's extremists here and there when it comes to guns and God, but DFW is a big enough place that you can find the right combo for your taste.
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Again, Asheville is a cool town, in a beautiful mountain setting, but it's a tourist destination, not cheap.
My sib just bought a spacious, relatively new house just outside Asheville for like 150k and he lives well there for <20k/yr so I think it's still a pretty reasonable COL at this point if you know where to look. But maybe I'm just jaded from living in the NE and Northern California too long :)
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I've been looking at houses for sale online in the Asheville area, including Black Mountain and Swannanoa. I think if I don't care about a view or being in a "mountain house" - aka a vacation home - then I could probably find something reasonable and convenient.
My hesitation with Asheville is that it doesn't have a big airport.
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Silver City, NM is a fine place
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If you want moderate temps and LCOL, Austin is not the city for you. Housing/property prices are climbing at a semi-astronomical rate, the summers are brutal (expect 6+ months of 90-100 degree weather), and the traffic is getting more horrific by the second.
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If you want moderate temps and LCOL, Austin is not the city for you. Housing/property prices are climbing at a semi-astronomical rate, the summers are brutal PERFECT (expect 6+ months of 90-100 degree weather), and the traffic is getting more horrific by the second.
Fixed it for you. :-) I love the hot weather.
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MN, very liberal and low cost of living.
Also, Las Vegas, low cost of living and pretty-much ANYTHING goes there.
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Have you considered Greenville, SC? It doesn't quite meet the trifecta, as it's a bit more conservative, but the COL versus the opportunities and amenities here is hard to beat. GSP is a fairly good airport, you're well positioned between Charlotte, Atlanta, and an hour from Asheville. Beautiful weather, a very nice downtown. A lot of improvements and investments being made to make the city more livable.
And it's not all that conservative. I moved from the Upsate to Berkeley, CA and back. There's a difference between the two, to be sure, but it's not that different.
Edit: And how could I forget Charleston! It's even milder in the winter, but a bit muggier in the summer. You're at the beach though. COL is higher by SC standards, but still low as long as you don't live downtown or on the beachfront. More of a liberal subculture than the rest of the state.
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Edit: And how could I forget Charleston! It's even milder in the winter, but a bit muggier in the summer. You're at the beach though. COL is higher by SC standards, but still low as long as you don't live downtown or on the beachfront. More of a liberal subculture than the rest of the state.
Thanks for recommending Charleston! This is on our list :)
We have recently started to talk about this exact topic as we near our FIRE date. I have been reading this thread closely (thanks begood for starting this thread!) and most of the places you guys have mentioned are on our list. Our criteria is very similar to the OP, except that we are leaning towards the east coast in the US as our family lives in southern Ontario and it'll be much easier to visit 1-2 times a year. We also want to be near a body of water - we love to kayak and canoe. We LOVE the west coast and recently have fallen in love with the PNW (based on our couple of trips to the Portland area and Seattle/Puget Sound/San Juan Islands areas). We may find ourselves there some day down the line, but I think for the next 10-15 years it makes sense to be not so far from parents (maybe someone can convince me otherwise??). As people have mentioned, the south/southeast can be a swamp in the summer, so we have talked about traveling elsewhere (abroad or to milder climate areas in North America) during the summer months (opposite of snowbirds).
Begood - if you're willing to consider the west coast/PNW, I think you should definitely take a trip over there and spend some time getting to know the area. Sounds like climate is very important to you (as this is very important to me), this area may be the most agreeable with you. Or maybe Colorado from what I've been told and read - but haven't been here myself, so I cannot comment on this.
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If you don't mind the heat, I guess San Antonio is the cheap version of Austin.
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I grew up in Dallas and live in southeastern PA, and I consider southeastern PA to be milder. But if you just really hate the cold, Dallas is certainly the superior choice.
Yeah, we live in MD, ~2 hrs south of Philadelphia and visit family there frequently. I don't consider winter there harsh by any standard except perhaps on the "CA beach bum scale" :S
On the other hand the summers can get unbearably hot and humid which I find much worse! If it's cold you can just put on more clothes, but there's a physical (and social) limit to how much you can take off.. I don't think there's any way I could handle living further south than PA/MD/DC, and even this is stretching it.
Unfortunately it seems my wife want to stay close to family in the area, so there's a limit to how far we can go. West in PA might be an option, but I think NH is too far. Have heard good things about Pittsburg so trying to plan a vacation trip there.
I've only briefly been to southern Delaware. Does anyone know if anything there is attractive? Too slow and tiny? Cheap for so close to the coast, but have the impression is a bit crappy there. Called "slower lower" for a reason..
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I just skimmed comments but I would recommend Louisville, KY. It is a mix of southern and Midwestern cities, but COL is low, very liberal neighborhoods ( Frankfort Ave and the Highlands), has a biggish airport, 6 hours to Chicago in a car. It does have hot summers, but way more variable weather. Might get super cold for a day or two several times in the winter, then it's suddenly 50 or 60 degrees. Great local food scene, lots of up and coming neighborhoods, great old housing stock. Avoid the burbs, totally red, but def a blue spot in a red state.
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The young'uns may not realize this is a line from the song "Signs":
And the sign said, "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeT5otk2R1g
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...I could live without the copperheads but these are small issues for how livable the area is.
You lost me at copperheads! (Not that I was thinking to move.) You're a braver person than I. :-)