Author Topic: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes  (Read 2717 times)

secondcor521

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Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« on: October 04, 2022, 10:56:08 AM »
My son is currently car shopping and his first choice is a Toyota Prius Prime.  For the sake of this thread, let's assume that is a given constraint.  (Sorry @Syonyk, I know you recommended the Chevy.)

He'd prefer private party sale, so we're looking on FB marketplace.

Even looking there, which I thought was a fairly vibrant market, there are not many available nearby.  Is there a better marketplace or avenue to look at for private party auto sales?

About half of the Prius Primes on FB marketplace have a salvage, rebuilt, or branded title.  Many of these are in California, which makes sense because that make and model is probably popular there, and there are a lot of people and cars in that state.

I'm generally leery of the risk associated with these types of title, and don't see a need for him to take the risk.  He's a good earner at his job.  He doesn't know much about cars yet but he is wicked smart and could learn.  I'd rather he just pay the additional increment for a perfect title.  He has a higher willingness to take risk than me; the jury is out on whose approach is better.

Quite a number of these cars have wording to the effect of "Salvage title due to minor damage, professionally repaired, car is perfectly fine now."  These are tempting.  Most of these are in California.

Prius Primes with salvage etc. titles run in the $20K to $25K range.  The discount varies and I haven't looked at it closely or analytically but seems to be in the $3K to $6K range (so a comparable vehicle with a perfect title would be $23K to $31K).

Worth the discount?  Avoid these at all costs?  Salvage OK but branded not?  Ask for a bigger discount?

Paging @Syonyk but interested in everyone's thoughts and input.

Tester

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2022, 12:01:09 PM »
I have to put this here:

https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-elantra-hybrid-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=10862&tp=new

Not plug in hybrid but hybrid.
25k USD NEW???

Why do you look at 25k USD with salvage title?

EDIT: I put that here to understand why is it that you only want the Prius Prime.
If that is the only car you will buy then I would still avoid the salvage title, especially at that price.


Not hybrids, 18k USD NEW:
https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-accent-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=135&tp=new
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 12:03:42 PM by Tester »

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 12:39:10 PM »
I've been looking at cars for a couple of years now and see ALOT of branded and salvaged titles here in Calif. Not sure about quality issues and you'd probably have to have the frame checked out as most repairs will likely be superficial but frame damage may not have been corrected. For me it wouldn't be worth the discount unless I knew exactly what happened to the car and how (if) it was actually repaired beyond cosmetics or enough to pass a inspection for a new title to 've issued.

The other issue is to make sure it can be insured. Lots of insurance companies won't insure a salvage or branded title.

Thanks @spartana!

Especially the point about insurance.  I just assumed they would be insurable because I didn't think there'd be that many people in CA who would drive around uninsured.  Maybe I'm wrong on that point.

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2022, 12:44:34 PM »
I have to put this here:

https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-elantra-hybrid-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=10862&tp=new

Not plug in hybrid but hybrid.
25k USD NEW???

Why do you look at 25k USD with salvage title?

EDIT: I put that here to understand why is it that you only want the Prius Prime.
If that is the only car you will buy then I would still avoid the salvage title, especially at that price.


Not hybrids, 18k USD NEW:
https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-accent-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=135&tp=new

A.  It's not me, it's my son.

B.  I thought I said clearly enough in the OP that my son wants that make and model and that was outside the scope of the question I was asking.  But since you asked:  He wants plug-in hybrid because of environment concerns and an assessment of his driving needs (99% short commute, 1% nearby driving).  He also wants reliable and low TCO.  Thus Toyota.

If you want to debate my son's needs, opinions, or preferences further, I'm going to disengage from the conversation.

C.  Sorting Toyota Prius Primes by price low to high then looking at ones available revealed a bunch of cars, and the cheapest ones all had salvage titles.  Thus this thread.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2022, 12:59:21 PM »
Quite a number of these cars have wording to the effect of "Salvage title due to minor damage, professionally repaired, car is perfectly fine now."  These are tempting.  Most of these are in California.


Call me a skeptic, but something seems less than fully honest here. If it was minor damage, why was the car totaled?

Are the vehicle histories of these cars available on Carfax?

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2022, 01:48:17 PM »
I've been looking at cars for a couple of years now and see ALOT of branded and salvaged titles here in Calif. Not sure about quality issues and you'd probably have to have the frame checked out as most repairs will likely be superficial but frame damage may not have been corrected. For me it wouldn't be worth the discount unless I knew exactly what happened to the car and how (if) it was actually repaired beyond cosmetics or enough to pass a inspection for a new title to 've issued.

The other issue is to make sure it can be insured. Lots of insurance companies won't insure a salvage or branded title.

Thanks @spartana!

Especially the point about insurance.  I just assumed they would be insurable because I didn't think there'd be that many people in CA who would drive around uninsured.  Maybe I'm wrong on that point.
"No, you cannot insure a car with a salvage title in California, as salvage vehicles are cars that have been declared a total loss. You can, however, get coverage on a previously salvaged car if you have it repaired and inspected by a state-certified mechanic. . If it’s declared safe to drive, the DMV will issue the car a revived title. June 25, 2021"

This from Wallet Hub:  https://wallethub.com/answers/ci/salvage-title-california-2140749219/#:~:text=No%2C%20you%20cannot%20insure%20a,by%20a%20state%2Dcertified%20mechanic.
 You might want to read the entire article as it seems they only issue liability insurance even on re-issued titled. Probably not a good thing if your son is looking at an expensive car. Also Priuses are the number one target for catalytic converter thefts here.

Thanks for the additional detail.  We actually live in Idaho, so the insurance requirements might be different...possibly should have lead with that.

And catalytic converter theft is a thing here as well.  Will mention that to my son.

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2022, 01:51:47 PM »
Quite a number of these cars have wording to the effect of "Salvage title due to minor damage, professionally repaired, car is perfectly fine now."  These are tempting.  Most of these are in California.


Call me a skeptic, but something seems less than fully honest here. If it was minor damage, why was the car totaled?

Are the vehicle histories of these cars available on Carfax?

Right, your first question was also my question.  I didn't figure I'd get an honest answer from the various sellers, so I thought I'd ask here.  I was creatively thinking that maybe there is some liability or cost issue with an EV battery which would cause insurance companies to total them more often.

Don't know about Carfax.  Probably.  I don't see why not if one has the VIN.  I did see one that had the entire Carfax screenshotted into the FB ad, but that was for one with a totally clean title.

getsorted

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2022, 03:01:29 PM »

Call me a skeptic, but something seems less than fully honest here. If it was minor damage, why was the car totaled?


Cars are "totaled" all the time if the cost of repairing the damage exceeds the value of the car, in the opinion of the insurance company. It really has nothing to do with the repairability or safety of the vehicle; it is simply a cost-benefit equation. There are many mechanics whose entire business is buying, repairing, and reselling totaled vehicles.

My last three (maybe four?) cars have all been salvage titles, but I drive cars so old Mr. Money Mustache wouldn't mess with them and only carry liability insurance.

You want to get good information on the nature of the accident was and have a thorough inspection by a mechanic you trust.

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2022, 03:16:52 PM »

Call me a skeptic, but something seems less than fully honest here. If it was minor damage, why was the car totaled?


Cars are "totaled" all the time if the cost of repairing the damage exceeds the value of the car, in the opinion of the insurance company. It really has nothing to do with the repairability or safety of the vehicle; it is simply a cost-benefit equation. There are many mechanics whose entire business is buying, repairing, and reselling totaled vehicles.

My last three (maybe four?) cars have all been salvage titles, but I drive cars so old Mr. Money Mustache wouldn't mess with them and only carry liability insurance.

You want to get good information on the nature of the accident was and have a thorough inspection by a mechanic you trust.

Thanks, I understood all of that.

Mostly the question is what kinds of "minor damage" to a PHEV would result in an insurance company deciding that the cost to repair was too great?  I was guessing any damage to the battery or related components, but that is just a guess.

It does seem as though there are more salvage Toyota Prius Primes on a percentage basis compared to other kinds of cars I've looked at in the past, so maybe the PHEV design has something to do with it.  Or maybe my sampling is not scientific.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2022, 06:22:26 PM »
I'm not sure that Prime values are low enough to be impacted by this, but older, higher mileage Prii can be totaled if the catalytic converter is stolen as that repair can easily be $2k or more if you have to use OEM parts to pass CA emissions tests. That's a pretty simple repair that wouldn't impact any future safety or reliability. It's just expensive.

The Prime itself may just have more expensive parts in both the front and rear, so minor accidents can lead to big repair bills:

https://www.rav4world.com/threads/prime-susceptible-to-being-totaled-after-front-end-collision.315680/

I know for sure that the 2016-present cars have a bunch of unique bodywork compared to the regular Prius which may make the parts less common and therefore more expensive.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 06:39:20 PM by Paper Chaser »

secondcor521

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2022, 08:05:38 PM »
@Paper Chaser, good info thanks.

Update to all - I'm informed that he is now interested in the Honda version (Honda Clarity), saying specs match his secondary use case better.  Le sigh.  Apologies to all for overenthusiastic overinvolved parenting.  I'll go back to my other hobbies now.

Syonyk

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2022, 08:58:13 PM »
(Sorry @Syonyk, I know you recommended the Chevy.)

I don't mind the Prius, if it does what you need.  My perceived objections to it are largely that it didn't exist when I was doing a lot of my Volt writing, and that the range is inadequate for the average daily drive.  If it fits your particular driving needs, I'm sure they're perfectly fine cars.  But they won't do the average American round trip commute.  Also, the Volts are cheaper, but... shrug.  If a Prius Prime works, nothing against it.

Quote
Even looking there, which I thought was a fairly vibrant market, there are not many available nearby.  Is there a better marketplace or avenue to look at for private party auto sales?

You're in the Treasure Valley, if I recall properly.  There are no EVs, PHEVs, or anything of the sort for sale out here.  Your best bet would be to bug Fairly Reliable Bob's and see if they have anything in stock or coming in, or just plan a fly-n-drive (or drive-n-drive) to Seattle, Portland, or somewhere along those lines.  Possibly Salt Lake, but I'm not sure what the market looks like out there.  At least some years back, it was cheaper to fly to Seattle and bring something back than to buy things out here.  I'm guessing the used market out there is just as fouled out as it is everywhere else, though.  You could also check vehicle specific forums.  No idea what those are for Priuses, though.

Quote
He's a good earner at his job.  He doesn't know much about cars yet but he is wicked smart and could learn.  I'd rather he just pay the additional increment for a perfect title.  He has a higher willingness to take risk than me; the jury is out on whose approach is better.

If you don't know how to work on cars and are a "high earner," I would also suggest avoiding a salvage title.  I've owned a lot of them over the years.  I didn't know how to work on cars, couldn't afford anything better, so learned.  But it sounds like he's got more than a couple hundred dollars to scrape together for a car based on what you're describing the price range as, so it's probably not relevant.

Quote
Quite a number of these cars have wording to the effect of "Salvage title due to minor damage, professionally repaired, car is perfectly fine now."  These are tempting.  Most of these are in California.

There are a variety of shops, often in California for reasons that baffle me (probably because there's a lot of cars out there), that specialize in one type of car, and often just one general model of it.  They buy them up, part out anything that's pretty well wrecked, and repair ones that have less severe damage.  It's far cheaper than buying parts retail or pick-n-pull, if you can part out entire cars worth of parts at once (front end collision, everything in the rear is likely to be fine).  And they get to know that car very well, so often seem to do a decent job with the work - they know what to look for.  I'd generally believe they are what they claim to be in terms of repair.

Quote
Worth the discount?  Avoid these at all costs?  Salvage OK but branded not?  Ask for a bigger discount?

I'm a bit unclear as to how registering salvage titles goes in various states.  In Iowa, where everything I owned was salvage title, nobody cared - it was just a line on the title.  Other states are a lot picker, as I understand it, so if he's got the money for something with a clean title, as it sounds is the case, I'd suggest something with a clean title for the ease of potentially moving it to another state.  I managed to sell all my salvage titles off before I moved out of Iowa, so I'm not sure what the process looks like, but I believe it involves inspections with people who aren't particularly happy about doing it, at least in some states.  How that works if it's out of state... eh.  Look into it.

If you're talking about a $2000 beater, sure.  Get a salvage title if your state is OK with it, and plan to sell it if you move.  I don't see the logic in doing that with a $30k class car.  Yes, you save some, but it will reflect in value when selling it down the road, and it could make it very difficult to move to another state with it.

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Paging Syonyk...

No idea why.  I barely internet anymore.  Most of my unpopular opinions go on my blog.

It's the MMM forum in 2022.  Has he considered a Tesla with the self driving package?  You know, to support the future, and all that?

Mostly the question is what kinds of "minor damage" to a PHEV would result in an insurance company deciding that the cost to repair was too great?  I was guessing any damage to the battery or related components, but that is just a guess.

On any modern car, any airbag deployment is likely to total the car.  They're expensive, and nobody really wants to mess with them over fear of later lawsuits, so that'll scrap a car right there.

PHEVs and EVs tend to have some expensive equipment more or less right under the skin.  Chargers and such can live there, and are easily enough crushed - I believe the front left of the first gen Volt is an easy way to total the car because the charger lives under there - or something of the general power electronics and "expensive to replace" variety is in there.  And with the PHEVs, you often have some significant complexity with the cooling system.  I've got a VoltScreen (wire mesh thing) over the front lower grille opening, because rocks can put holes in radiators and they're an annoying pain in the rear to replace - plus, if they leak too much, it can damage other stuff.  So if someone mashed up all the radiators on a Volt, odds are good that it would get totaled.

Also, car repairs in general are expensive right now, and it seems that "total it" wins out over "wait 6 months to maybe hope you can find some parts from an OEM who isn't in business anymore but nobody knows it."  Newer cars also have a lot more sensors and such that both need replacement and recalibration, which isn't cheap either.  A good solid hit to the front could toast a couple grand in sensors alone, plus whatever other damage it did.

Quote
Or maybe my sampling is not scientific.

Unless you're in the salvage market, it's unlikely you've got a good sampling.

Anyway, </thoughts>.  He should spend the coin on a non-salvage title unless he's strapped for cash and not planning to move any time soon from a state in which they're easy to deal with.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2022, 09:03:29 PM »
I have to put this here:

https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-elantra-hybrid-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=10862&tp=new

Not plug in hybrid but hybrid.
25k USD NEW???

Why do you look at 25k USD with salvage title?

EDIT: I put that here to understand why is it that you only want the Prius Prime.
If that is the only car you will buy then I would still avoid the salvage title, especially at that price.


Not hybrids, 18k USD NEW:
https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-accent-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=135&tp=new

This was my thought too. If the son wants to stay with Toyota, at BRAND NEW Prius starts at $25,075 if you special order an absolute base model with no dealer-add ons. Similarly, a BRAND NEW Corolla hybrid starts at $24,050 and gets about the same mileage.

A BRAND NEW Prius Prime plug in sells for $28,770 which means the son can get a car with a couple more years of use left in it and no worries about hidden damage or not-replaced airbags for only 15% more than the previously damaged car. BTW, a salvage title should always mean 30% off of the price a similar used car should normally sell for, because the next buyer is going to demand the same discount. This deal is only 15% lower than the cost of a non-salvage, not used car. A fair price might be something like 12k or 14k, not 25k.

Tester

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2022, 02:00:56 AM »
I have to put this here:

https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-elantra-hybrid-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=10862&tp=new

Not plug in hybrid but hybrid.
25k USD NEW???

Why do you look at 25k USD with salvage title?

EDIT: I put that here to understand why is it that you only want the Prius Prime.
If that is the only car you will buy then I would still avoid the salvage title, especially at that price.


Not hybrids, 18k USD NEW:
https://www.seattlehyundai.com/search/new-hyundai-accent-seattle-wa/?cy=98133&md=135&tp=new

B.  I thought I said clearly enough in the OP that my son wants that make and model and that was outside the scope of the question I was asking.  But since you asked:  He wants plug-in hybrid because of environment concerns and an assessment of his driving needs (99% short commute, 1% nearby driving).  He also wants reliable and low TCO.  Thus Toyota.

If you want to debate my son's needs, opinions, or preferences further, I'm going to disengage from the conversation.


Why so mad, I asked a question.
I also gave you my opinion on salvaged titles on expensive cars.

But as you saw, the strong needs opinions and preferences changed...
Good luck with helping him find what he needs.

jrhampt

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2022, 07:30:44 AM »
My last two cars (both Honda Fits) were salvage titles.  There was a local guy who specialized in 2013 salvaged Honda Fits...it was a nice discount and I never had any reliability issues with either of them or a problem insuring (I paid cash though so I don't think I ever bothered with full coverage - just liability).  Eventually they were both totaled in car accidents and the insurance payout was more than they cost me in the first place.

Dave1442397

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2022, 11:35:35 AM »
I follow a couple of YouTubers who like to buy salvage cars from Copart and fix them up.

One thing they always recommend is searching for the VIN in previous auctions, using sites like this: https://www.autoauctions.io

It's amazing what they turn up sometimes. Cars get bought, fixed up cosmetically to be sent back to auction and resold, but are really in bad shape.

Here's a video where he did some research on salvage cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQl65MMoyVA

Paper Chaser

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2022, 11:42:54 AM »
@Paper Chaser, good info thanks.

Update to all - I'm informed that he is now interested in the Honda version (Honda Clarity), saying specs match his secondary use case better.  Le sigh.  Apologies to all for overenthusiastic overinvolved parenting.  I'll go back to my other hobbies now.

Just FYI, the Clarity is a pretty rare car with tons of unique body parts and lights that can be difficult and expensive to source after a collision. And Honda parts in general are supposedly a nightmare to get right now.

Hopefully he won't have issues that require body parts (or anything else) for a long time. Just wanted to chime in with what I'm hearing from friends and acquaintances in the Honda world. The general Honda parts thing will likely clear up eventually, but the limited parts availability that comes with owning a rare vehicle are going to be what they are.

sammybiker

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2022, 12:09:18 PM »
It doesn't take much to salvage a vehicle these days.  Go drive the car, perform a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) via local shop or on your own and move forward.  Especially if you can confirm the mileage at which the salvage incident occurred and verify miles have been put on the vehicle since, I would feel good to move fwd.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2022, 09:00:57 AM »
Just FYI, the Clarity is a pretty rare car...

This makes me feel a bit better about the fact that I have never heard of the Honda Clarity.

sonofsven

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2022, 09:23:23 AM »
Just FYI, the Clarity is a pretty rare car...

This makes me feel a bit better about the fact that I have never heard of the Honda Clarity.
Accordingly, it gives me insight into the lack of clarity and the subsequent fit of other models to be used in the elements, especially in the civic environment, not for piloting on ridgelines, per se.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2022, 09:35:23 AM »
Just FYI, the Clarity is a pretty rare car...

This makes me feel a bit better about the fact that I have never heard of the Honda Clarity.
Accordingly, it gives me insight into the lack of clarity and the subsequent fit of other models to be used in the elements, especially in the civic environment, not for piloting on ridgelines, per se.

That's quite the verbal Odyssey you just went on. Now do S2000!!!

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2022, 02:14:13 PM »
Quite a number of these cars have wording to the effect of "Salvage title due to minor damage, professionally repaired, car is perfectly fine now."  These are tempting.  Most of these are in California.


Call me a skeptic, but something seems less than fully honest here. If it was minor damage, why was the car totaled?

Are the vehicle histories of these cars available on Carfax?

I know my '08 Honda Fit is a "little bit" simpler than a Prius, but perhaps the story will help explain how minor damage results in a totaled car. TLDR: Body work is expensive

We parked the car at a friends house while on vacation in early 2020. Got a call while we were away that someone had hit it and run in the middle of the night. The plastic bumper cover was trashed and some AL was bent, but nothing structural. Our insurance totaled the car when the repair came back more than 75% of estimated value. They gave me $3700 for the car plus $2000 to ship one up because they couldn't locate one for sale in Alaska. I bought it back for $700 and bought a new plastic bumper and paint for $150. About an afternoon worth of work and it's good enough for us. I'd never claim it was "like new" but it hasn't had a problem in 2 years and 30k miles.

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2022, 02:20:57 PM »
A BRAND NEW Prius Prime plug in sells for $28,770 which means the son can get a car with a couple more years of use left in it and no worries about hidden damage or not-replaced airbags for only 15% more than the previously damaged car. BTW, a salvage title should always mean 30% off of the price a similar used car should normally sell for, because the next buyer is going to demand the same discount. This deal is only 15% lower than the cost of a non-salvage, not used car. A fair price might be something like 12k or 14k, not 25k.

As an owner of two rebuilt vehicles (The Fit I mentioned above and a truck I bought rebuilt) I fully agree with this. I would not shy away from saving 30% on a rebuilt title. My experience has been very positive, but I wouldn't take on a 30% depreciation risk for 15% off today.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2022, 02:44:34 PM »
On any modern car, any airbag deployment is likely to total the car.  They're expensive, and nobody really wants to mess with them over fear of later lawsuits, so that'll scrap a car right there.

PHEVs and EVs tend to have some expensive equipment more or less right under the skin.  Chargers and such can live there, and are easily enough crushed - I believe the front left of the first gen Volt is an easy way to total the car because the charger lives under there - or something of the general power electronics and "expensive to replace" variety is in there.  And with the PHEVs, you often have some significant complexity with the cooling system.  I've got a VoltScreen (wire mesh thing) over the front lower grille opening, because rocks can put holes in radiators and they're an annoying pain in the rear to replace - plus, if they leak too much, it can damage other stuff.  So if someone mashed up all the radiators on a Volt, odds are good that it would get totaled.

Also, car repairs in general are expensive right now, and it seems that "total it" wins out over "wait 6 months to maybe hope you can find some parts from an OEM who isn't in business anymore but nobody knows it."  Newer cars also have a lot more sensors and such that both need replacement and recalibration, which isn't cheap either.  A good solid hit to the front could toast a couple grand in sensors alone, plus whatever other damage it did.

This is a really interesting point on the disposable nature of "green" electric vehicles. To be fair a lot of those costs are in all new vehicles hybrid or not. It' really neat having all the fancy features until you have to fix something. I just wish I could figure out why so much of the new "green" tech is disposable. Or perhaps I should say I wish I could come up with a better reason than "profit".

Replacing light bulbs with embedded LED fixtures might have made sense if the LEDs really lasted anything close to the 50k hours they claimed. So far that hasn't been my experience. Twenty to twenty five percent of the LED shop lights I bought have failed in less than three years. I'm skeptical the net impact is positive if I have to replace the entire light fixture after a couple years instead of just replacing a 4' T12 tube. It's not like we can't put LEDs into tubes, I converted 100s of them for people when I live in a remote village with very expensive electricity. But I can't find them new.

Yesterday my brother sent me a photo of an "eco friendly" single use grill for $20! Who is spending $20 on a single use grill and convincing themselves that it's better for the environment than burning a dead local sticks?

Syonyk

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2022, 03:26:13 PM »
I just wish I could figure out why so much of the new "green" tech is disposable. Or perhaps I should say I wish I could come up with a better reason than "profit".

I see a few reasons tossed about, though you can end up with most of them pointed back at "profit."

A lot of the "green" stuff overlaps with "consumer tech."  It's a nifty little slight of hand, make the "new consumer tech" more appealing by finding a way to market it as eco-friendly too.  Uses less power!  Now more data collection per watt!  Up to 50% more fliptyflops per picowatt (under ideal conditions)!  As long as you're feeling good about your consumption, you'll consume more.  Never mind that most of our problems are a direct result of consumption, you can consume your way out of that problem!

I've also run into a common sentiment that more or less refuses to acknowledge the embodied energy in items, and believes that "recycling" magically makes newer things without a lot of energy.  You'll find it most commonly in EV threads when someone starts going on about maintainability (and the lack thereof in newer cars in general) - give it long enough, and someone will show up with an argument that can be summed up as, "Who gives a shit?  The new EVs are going to be so much better that nobody's going to want to repair the old clunkers, we can just crush them and recycle them into new ones instead of bothering to fix the old stuff!"  You have to ignore most of reality to get there, but I see it often enough.  I mean, if your car no longer supports the latest phone, just crush it, nobody would want that piece of trash!  Anyway, good news, Apple looks to be phasing out the Lightning port in the next generation or two, so, golly, everyone's just going to have to go buy a new car to work with their new phones!  (yes, you can read that with an implied rolleyes)

There's also the reality that we live in a world now where very few people even know how to repair their stuff, or consider that it might be repairable - though this is hardly new.  I ate for a while in grad school on the difference between what people thought a broken laptop was worth and how much value I could extract from them either as parts or by repairing things that were "impossible to fix."  Bad soldered RAM chip my rear end, I can lift a power trace or three just as well as the next guy!  Didn't have hot air rework back then...

Quote
Replacing light bulbs with embedded LED fixtures might have made sense if the LEDs really lasted anything close to the 50k hours they claimed. So far that hasn't been my experience. Twenty to twenty five percent of the LED shop lights I bought have failed in less than three years. I'm skeptical the net impact is positive if I have to replace the entire light fixture after a couple years instead of just replacing a 4' T12 tube.

Yeah... I've had to replace a reasonable number of the "long life" LEDs I put in brand new in the house 6 years back when we moved in.  I've had some just stop working, I've had some "warm glow" ones stop working properly, one of the ones in my son's room would just... flash, randomly, brightly, but of course only when nobody was actually looking at the globe.  And they're an awful lot more intensive to produce in terms of materials than incandescents were (some glass, some tungsten, and a bit of other metal).  Yes, they use less energy, but I remain uncertain as to the actual production costs on them with all the subsidies floating around.

And that's before you start getting into the spectrum of light off them.  White LEDs are just blue LEDs with a phosphor coating, and they leak a lot of the blue.  Of course, it's squarely in the region that humans use to detect "daytime" and sync our body clocks... I've got a bunch of work down that rabbithole I'm doing lately and playing with, should have more results in a few weeks there, but I've been moving back to incandescent bulbs, dimmed (or similar light off kerosene lanterns) in the evenings, and I notice a real difference.

Quote
It's not like we can't put LEDs into tubes, I converted 100s of them for people when I live in a remote village with very expensive electricity. But I can't find them new.

I thought the "bypass the ballast and put LEDs in instead" tubes were pretty common at hardware stores?

Quote
Yesterday my brother sent me a photo of an "eco friendly" single use grill for $20! Who is spending $20 on a single use grill and convincing themselves that it's better for the environment than burning a dead local sticks?

Have you tried spending a couple weeks on social media?  It's likely to fry your brain enough that it sounds like a hip and green, eco-friendly idea!

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2022, 04:40:45 PM »
Replacing light bulbs with embedded LED fixtures might have made sense if the LEDs really lasted anything close to the 50k hours they claimed. So far that hasn't been my experience. Twenty to twenty five percent of the LED shop lights I bought have failed in less than three years. I'm skeptical the net impact is positive if I have to replace the entire light fixture after a couple years instead of just replacing a 4' T12 tube. It's not like we can't put LEDs into tubes, I converted 100s of them for people when I live in a remote village with very expensive electricity. But I can't find them new.

You can install LED bulbs in existing fluorescent fixtures if you remove the ballast box and switch the wires around so that the line goes into both tabs of one end and the neutral goes into both tabs of the other end. The job takes five minutes and four wire nuts per fixture. If the LED bulbs die or are damaged, just snap in a new one.

I did this with 12 fixtures in my shop, plus my kitchen light, using bulbs purchased in bulk from EBay. That was 2 years ago and I’ve had no failures yet. 

Example LED tubes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323893355138?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zcSrUEVjSvO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=7t4J3mOnTAu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2022, 06:47:19 PM »
I really appreciate your sense of humor in your response Syonyk. It's probably the healthiest way to approach the madness without going mad ourselves. I actually laughed several times, so thank you.

Yeah... I've had to replace a reasonable number of the "long life" LEDs I put in brand new in the house 6 years back when we moved in.  I've had some just stop working, I've had some "warm glow" ones stop working properly, one of the ones in my son's room would just... flash, randomly, brightly, but of course only when nobody was actually looking at the globe.  And they're an awful lot more intensive to produce in terms of materials than incandescents were (some glass, some tungsten, and a bit of other metal).  Yes, they use less energy, but I remain uncertain as to the actual production costs on them with all the subsidies floating around.

And that's before you start getting into the spectrum of light off them.  White LEDs are just blue LEDs with a phosphor coating, and they leak a lot of the blue.  Of course, it's squarely in the region that humans use to detect "daytime" and sync our body clocks... I've got a bunch of work down that rabbithole I'm doing lately and playing with, should have more results in a few weeks there, but I've been moving back to incandescent bulbs, dimmed (or similar light off kerosene lanterns) in the evenings, and I notice a real difference.
For me the dimmable bulbs have been worst offenders for LED replacement bulbs. Just last week I thought I has a broken dimmer switch, but eventually narrowed it down to one light in a fixture going back and making the other flicker. With about 3 dozen LED bulbs in the house I seem to be averaging about 4-5 a year replacement rate which is about the same rate I used to replace incandescent bulbs. Certainly not an average life of 15-50k hours depending on whose marketing BS i look at...

I look forward to the results of your rabbit hole efforts!

I thought the "bypass the ballast and put LEDs in instead" tubes were pretty common at hardware stores?
Yes I can still the bypass tubes by themselves. It just seemed absurd to buy a new 4ft fixture, rip out the never used ballast and install the LED tubes when I was adding lights to my garage so I tried the all in one fixture style from Costco. I even tried to repair one when it stopped working, but wasn't successful. I think the next time I'll try to find some old fixtures on craigslist and swap them out or just buy tombstones and build the fixture like I did for my sister about 10 years ago. Interestingly all of the LED tube replacements I've installed are still working so I know it's possible to build LEDs that really do last.

Have you tried spending a couple weeks on social media?  It's likely to fry your brain enough that it sounds like a hip and green, eco-friendly idea!
I think I'll pass on that though I have enjoyed being on the forum a bit more this past week. It turns out when I don't work at a computer I don't check the forum very often.

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2022, 07:05:09 PM »
Replacing light bulbs with embedded LED fixtures might have made sense if the LEDs really lasted anything close to the 50k hours they claimed. So far that hasn't been my experience. Twenty to twenty five percent of the LED shop lights I bought have failed in less than three years. I'm skeptical the net impact is positive if I have to replace the entire light fixture after a couple years instead of just replacing a 4' T12 tube. It's not like we can't put LEDs into tubes, I converted 100s of them for people when I live in a remote village with very expensive electricity. But I can't find them new.

You can install LED bulbs in existing fluorescent fixtures if you remove the ballast box and switch the wires around so that the line goes into both tabs of one end and the neutral goes into both tabs of the other end. The job takes five minutes and four wire nuts per fixture. If the LED bulbs die or are damaged, just snap in a new one.

I did this with 12 fixtures in my shop, plus my kitchen light, using bulbs purchased in bulk from EBay. That was 2 years ago and I’ve had no failures yet. 

Example LED tubes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323893355138?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zcSrUEVjSvO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=7t4J3mOnTAu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Yeah I've done this swap quite a few times and I haven't had any of the tubes fail on me yet. I used to live in a small village off the road system with very expensive electricity and the payback for switching a t8 or t12 to LED was measured in months. What I haven't seen is a new 4' fixture with replaceable LED tubes already installed instead the ballast an florescent tubes. All the new fixtures I have seen up here come with permanently mounted "tubes". Syonyk could probably have fixed it, but it's beyond my skills and tools.

The ones I got were from costco a couple years ago, but were very similar to these. 
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-4-ft-Light-LED-Strip-Shop-Light/5000858987?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-lit-_-ggl-_-LIA_LIT_143_Light-Bulbs-and-Commercial-Lighting-_-5000858987-_-local-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwwL6aBhBlEiwADycBIAplGSyK_ezes5fwGUXHFo14hsT5aXHb1uEwjQX6BPkyXWRcY5ynshoC-BQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

My point was mostly that if the things really lasted 50K hours it wouldn't bother me so much to throw the whole fixture away when it breaks, but I've already seen a 20% failure rate after less that a 1,000 hours of use. If we really want to be more environmentally friendly without giving up the good life it seems to me we should make products that last as long as practical and are reparable at the smallest component practical for a reasonably competent consumer.

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2022, 11:39:15 AM »
Denouement:

He shifted from a Toyota Prius Prime to a Honda Clarity to a Nissan Leaf over time.  He ultimately ended up with a beautiful 2014 Chevy Volt on Tuesday.  Early days yet, but he's quite happy with it and I'm pretty impressed with the vehicle so far.

Thanks again to everyone.

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2022, 12:23:32 PM »
He ultimately ended up with a beautiful 2014 Chevy Volt on Tuesday.

He came around to the right answer eventually! ;)

Tell him to buy a Voltscreen: https://voltshelf.weebly.com/voltscreen.html  It protects the lower radiator stack from rocks and can save some fairly expensive repairs.

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Re: Salvage/rebuilt/branded titles on Toyota Prius Primes
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2022, 01:22:41 PM »
He ultimately ended up with a beautiful 2014 Chevy Volt on Tuesday.

He came around to the right answer eventually! ;)

Tell him to buy a Voltscreen: https://voltshelf.weebly.com/voltscreen.html  It protects the lower radiator stack from rocks and can save some fairly expensive repairs.

Thought you might think so :)

I'll point out the Voltscreen to him.  I took a look just now and the lower 4" or so of his radiator is dirty but otherwise in good shape so far.  I can see how the damage could occur though.