Rich BIL

[EDSMedS]

Lead by example if you choose, but it's really, really annoying to have someone down your throat about a belief you don't share.  And you aren't likely to get very far. 

Multiple posts above by EDSmedS emphasize that he isn't telling BIL how to live his life, BIL is asking why OP is acting poor (or whatever) and likes to talk about how he acts rich (or whatever), where OP wants to explain that acting poor leads to actual wealthiness with the hope that BIL will be able to see around his big fat leaky BILlfold (hahaha) long enough to see some of the light.

Pretty rude to keep accusing OP of being a pushy buttface when he's repeatedly stated that BIL initiates the money/savings conversation.

+2

+3. This seems to be how it happens most of the time. People question the old car, the lunch pale, or something else. This is basic status quo bias in my opinion. If you challenge the status quo, you are questioned. However, you cannot question the questioner. Since it is entrenched, conventional wisdom, questioning it is viewed as mean, weird, or crazy. People do not want to be introspective about their lifestyle choices or philosophies.

KaylaEM, NoraLenderBee, and NICE!, thank you for reading the whole thread, lol!  I'll add another to the volley:

BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.

I'm not spam emailing him to tell him that he is a hyperconsuming sheep, lol.  I don't judge his choices.  I don't even bring it up.  Guess you can't stop people from rushing to judgment, even people that are on a blog-site that asks you to slow down your decision-making process.  To those that keep telling me not to "preach," I wonder, do you feel like it is an effective strategy to preach at someone telling them to not preach?

So far the best suggestions have been 1) focus on FI/FU, 2) highlight the value that I receive from MMM, 3) discuss tax advantages available through thoughtful investment, 4) ask about contingency plans if the jobs stop, 5) let the discussion sink in, 6) describe the value of strategy and automation, 7) discuss the possibility of increased quality of life with greater FI, 8) get him a SO, lol, 9) get him MND.

Thanks to everyone that has come here with the aim of being constructive.

[babysnowbyrd]

You can modify previous posts, and I think that would be a wise idea for you to put some of what you just wrote into your original post.

Some people just read the first post and then throw their two cents in and move on while others stay for the conversation. I've done that if a topic has a lot of posts or pages and don't want to lose my thought before reading everything else. With some topics I'm curious about what others have to say and other times I'm not.

[Dicey]

BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.

Thanks to everyone that has come here with the aim of being constructive.

Well, EDSmedS, I did come here with the aim of being constructive, but clearly I was not. When my old boss used to ask if I'd read something, I'd ask, "Did I read it or did I memorize it?" I read the OP and skimmed the follow-ups. I didn't get that BIL was ASKING for help and clearly I'm not the only one. If  you had asked what is in bold above in the original post, perhaps there would have been fewer comments that have been deemed "rude". Also, babysnowbird's advice about modifying your previous posts is spot on.

[kathrynd]

It's good that your BIL wants to have healthy debates with you.

He may be trying to justify in his head his own spending.
Maybe he thinks that being frugal  is a sign of weakness and failure?

For me, I love being frugal.
I could certainly be more frugal, and it comes and goes, but in general it's a good balance.
It brings out a creative side, on how I do things, or prepare meals.

On another 'investment' forum, I'm quite open about my frugal ways.
One person said something weird..which I will paraphrase
"I can't stand being around frugal people...no offence"
and in a thread they start...they ask how they can reduce their costs !!

With your BIL, you may need to give examples of how being frugal has enriched your lives.
It has given you choices you never imagined possible (ER / FI)

Sometimes I will make jokes of my frugality.As an example (true one)
"My husband and I spend $50 week average on groceries. I know that is a lot, but we are happy with amount"

[Dee18]

Sounds like BIL has much that is great in his life: travel, helping others in need, plenty of income for his wants.  I wonder if his job also provides an adrenaline rush because of its challenges.  I had a job like that until my mid 30s.  It was hard to leave because it was so exciting.  It was also exhausting.  Only after I left did I realize how bizarre it was that my job was so much of my life.   

[NICE!]

KaylaEM, NoraLenderBee, and NICE!, thank you for reading the whole thread, lol!  I'll add another to the volley:

BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.

I'm not spam emailing him to tell him that he is a hyperconsuming sheep, lol.  I don't judge his choices.  I don't even bring it up.  Guess you can't stop people from rushing to judgment, even people that are on a blog-site that asks you to slow down your decision-making process.  To those that keep telling me not to "preach," I wonder, do you feel like it is an effective strategy to preach at someone telling them to not preach?

So this is exactly what I ran into in the Charity thread. Tons of people posting & PMing to say they were reconsidering their views, with about 3 people calling me an asshole. Was I perfect? Nope. Can you please everyone? Nope. Is calling someone an asshole effective? Nope.

Same deal here. I will say that the post about people skimming is definitely true. If someone doesn't like what the OP says, I think they will often jump right in without reading follow-up discussion.

As for what you should do, I'd say #1-7 are all good ideas.

[hodedofome]

You aren't going to convince everybody, especially if they don't want to be convinced. Enjoy your frugal life and if he ever comes to you for advice, give it to him. Otherwise, stop worrying about it.

[BPA]

BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).

OP defends mustachianism.

There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.

Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything?  Live and let live.

[NoraLenderbee]

BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).

OP defends mustachianism.

There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.

Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything?  Live and let live.

Aaand they're off!

[Ricky]

I don't really understand the mindset to "live and let live". Do parents do that? Does government do that? Do you necessarily have to be in a governmental or parental position to try to influence other's lives when you know it's for the better? People are straight up ignorant and clueless when it comes right down to it. I'd love for someone to give me great advice all the time! Even if he DIDN'T initiate these conversations, it doesn't hurt to try to help him.

Now, continuously arguing with him over it would be another story. Pointing him in the right direction sounds harmless though.

It's difficult to know from which angle to attack the situation without knowing how much he actually saves, or if he's in debt at all, neither of which have been answered, though some in this thread have assumed he saves $30k a year (no proof).

For some of your reasons so far...

- Frugality means spending to your priorities, which requires that you know/develop your priorities, which leads to greater happiness, better relationships, and self-improvement.

Frugality is more about efficiency than balancing priorities. One's priority could be travel. You could spend $2k or $200k on travel in a year. That definition doesn't explain frugality. He doesn't want to be "frugal", so you'll never appeal to him in this way.

- Post FIRE, you can do what you want, when you want

Yes, but he can do what he wants when he wants it right now more or less. He wants to keep his income so he wants to work. His end game at the moment is not retiring.

- Thinking about money AHEAD of the wave prevents worrying about money AFTER the wave

I would start here...

We all know it's not about income, it's about savings rate. It's easier to save with a higher income of course.

I think the best way to get through is to inform him that he isn't going to want to work forever. At some point, he's going to want a change in his life or possibly quit. He's already in a stressful situation, so this could happen sooner than later. Building FU money is what he needs, not a speech on FIRE.

[aj_yooper]

MMM is a program of attraction, not conversion.  Shine your own light.

[BPA]

I don't really understand the mindset to "live and let live". Do parents do that? Does government do that? Do you necessarily have to be in a governmental or parental position to try to influence other's lives when you know it's for the better? People are straight up ignorant and clueless when it comes right down to it. I'd love for someone to give me great advice all the time! Even if he DIDN'T initiate these conversations, it doesn't hurt to try to help him.

Now, continuously arguing with him over it would be another story. Pointing him in the right direction sounds harmless though.

It's difficult to know from which angle to attack the situation without knowing how much he actually saves, or if he's in debt at all, neither of which have been answered, though some in this thread have assumed he saves $30k a year (no proof).

For some of your reasons so far...

- Frugality means spending to your priorities, which requires that you know/develop your priorities, which leads to greater happiness, better relationships, and self-improvement.

Frugality is more about efficiency than balancing priorities. One's priority could be travel. You could spend $2k or $200k on travel in a year. That definition doesn't explain frugality. He doesn't want to be "frugal", so you'll never appeal to him in this way.

- Post FIRE, you can do what you want, when you want

Yes, but he can do what he wants when he wants it right now more or less. He wants to keep his income so he wants to work. His end game at the moment is not retiring.

- Thinking about money AHEAD of the wave prevents worrying about money AFTER the wave

I would start here...

We all know it's not about income, it's about savings rate. It's easier to save with a higher income of course.

I think the best way to get through is to inform him that he isn't going to want to work forever. At some point, he's going to want a change in his life or possibly quit. He's already in a stressful situation, so this could happen sooner than later. Building FU money is what he needs, not a speech on FIRE.

Live and let live is based on the context here:  Grown adults making decisions for their own lives. In this case neither one is breaking any laws or anything like that.   

I really don't get how people aren't understanding that the BIL obviously doesn't care enough to change his behaviour.  And that is his prerogative. 

BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).

OP defends mustachianism.

There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.

Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything?  Live and let live.

Aaand they're off!

Oh.  I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that you were the one I had to ask permission of before posting on a thread.  Thanks for the clarification on that. <eyeroll>

[EDSMedS]

UPDATE

On our advice, he started budgeting and invested a good portion of his NW (which has grown ~30% since).  About 2 years later he decided that the job was draining him and he met a lady, moved to several different countries, and is now married with 2 kids.  He didn't work for a bit when the first was born (though his wife continued to work after maternity leave) and now works as a consultant making less.

We now have semi-annual discussions about their budget and short-and-long-term goals.

Also, on his advice, we started spending a little bit more.  Things like fresh flowers and fancy beer became quite a staple in our life and have certainly not been unhelpful during our journey to early retirement.

[bacchi]

Thanks for the update, EDS. It's fun when people update old threads (and this one was very old).

[AMandM]

Cool update!  I love that he actually followed the joke advice to get married and have kids!

Looking back, what do you think were the ideas that led him to change his mindset away from  "work hard, earn a lot, spend a bit less than that, don't think about money"?

[tygertygertyger]

This is great news. I got a call from my brother yesterday joking about me being his "financial advisor".... we almost never talk about money so it was surprising to me! But we covered current interest rates on savings and money market accounts, CDs, 529s, and most importantly, the freedom that comes from having $$ in the bank in case things go wrong or you simply need to get out of a situation.

Glad your BIL is in a better place! And nice work on being available for his questions when he was ready.

[slappy]

I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!

That is a very sad, selfish, and cynical view of the world that I fear is fairly common in these forums.  This is not a zero-sum game and without drastically reduced consumption, no one will be happy.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/

It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies.  Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around?  Are you all here just to get rich?  That's a shame...

No one is saying don't preach it. People are saying it don't shove it down someone's throat.

Wow, sorry, i didn't realize how old this thread was!