Author Topic: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread  (Read 2660 times)

desert_phoenix

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Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« on: August 18, 2017, 07:24:25 AM »
Many people relocate after FIRE.  I wanted to make a resource page to help in considering locations abroad.  I was torn between documenting both work visa requirements since so many people still do *something* in retirement, but decided for simplicity's sake to have this thread be exclusively about "retirement visas" where you are living off investments and forbidden from legally working on the local economy.

I am American, so writing based on that perspective.  Many things will be different if you are already an EU citizen, for example.  Hopefully this is of use to non-Americans as well, though.

I try to link to "official" websites wherever possible as blogs can be outdated or wrong.  I hope this can turn into a "living" document to be updated in time as things change.

Before investing more time, is this something the community would appreciate seeing?  If so, I am happy to edit and add more info over time as my free time allows.  Let me know!

European Union Countries:
Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic:
No retirement visa.

Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary

Ireland:
A "Stamp 0" is offered to those with independent means http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamp%200

"2. Persons of independent means

For persons of independent means, the financial threshold is generally considered to be €50,000 per person per annum, plus the person must have access to a lump sum of money to cover any unforeseen major expenses. This should be equivalent to, for example, the price of a dwelling in the State.
Financial documentation should be presented in tabular form and converted into Euros, clearly showing all income and expenditure on a monthly basis.
This must be certified by an Irish accountancy firm who have the expert knowledge to interpret the format of the overseas banking / accountancy documentation.
Each application is dealt with on a case by case basis."

This seems like if you showed your stash to be, say, $400,000 then you could get in, and then just show you were still well over the "€50,000 per person per annum" amount each year, or however often it is checked.  It is worth noting, however, that the top of the pages says, "Stamp 0 is a low level immigration status which is not intended to be reckonable for Long Term Residence or Citizenship. It is granted to persons who have been approved by INIS for a limited and specific stay in Ireland."  Thus, if your aim is eventual residency or citizenship, this may not be the route for you.

Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland

Portugal: 
his seems complicated, but possible. You get a one year temporary residence permanent, then renewed for two successive two-year periods.  Once you hit five years, you can apply for permanent residency.  Now, this is a bit different than other countries because it seems there is not a retirement specific visa.  But that you can get this residency visa as long as you show  $1,070 per month available to you once you arrive.  So if you have a decent nest egg, it seems easy to show the value needed each time your visa is up for renewal.  Unfortunately, I've yet to find this information clearly delineated in an official website:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/121515/how-much-money-do-you-need-retire-portugal.asp

I welcome anyone's help in tracking down official info!

Romania:
Long-term residence seems to only be conferred after an extension of your initial right to stay, which has only limited options:
http://igi.mai.gov.ro/en/content/other-purposes
It seems early retirement in Romania is a no go as rules are currently constituted.

Slovakia:
No retirement visa.

Slovenia:
No retirement visa.

Spain:
Non-lucrative Residence Visa
http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embajadas/OTTAWA/en/Embajada/Consularsectionoftheembassy/Longtermvisas/Pages/Nonlucrativeresidencevisas.aspx

A monthly amount of 2,130.00 Euros for 2017 or its equivalent in a foreign currency to support yourself during the requested period of residence in Spain. Additionally, 533 Euros per month per dependent

Sweden:
No retirement visa.

United Kingdom: 
It seems things are a bit up in the air as Brexit is settled.  Historically, there was a way to retire to the UK as a person of independent means - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/extend-your-stay-as-a-retired-person-of-independent-means/extend-your-stay-as-a-retired-person-of-independent-means

It can be renewed, but not applied for now by new people. A sad loss as one only needed £25,000 of disposable income per year.  TBD, it seems, but no retirement visa now for new people.

Other European Countries:
Switzerland:
You must be 55 or older https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/retiring-in-switzerland/29178422
https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-or-study-switzerland/  states you also need "adequate financial resources" which seems to be hard to get a clear definition for:
http://usersoffice.web.cern.ch/adequate-financial-resources-for-Switzerland indicates something in the neighborhood of ~$2,000 per month would be sufficient, though online discussions I have found seem to think a much higher annual income is necessary.  So a bit unclear, and I think 55 is much older than many FIRE hopefuls would aim for in retirement.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 07:26:23 AM by desert_phoenix »

FuckRx

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 06:44:44 PM »
I'm completing the last part of my non-lucrative visa to Spain. It's not that hard to do if you speak a little Spanish but I enlisted the help of an immigration lawyer.
The whole process should cost me a little under $600 and for that I would get a 1-year visa. There are multiple steps involved so it's good to have a spreadsheet where you write down each step and how it's coming along to help keep you on track. Or fork over $500 for a lawyer who'll walk you through everything.

Zamboni

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 03:26:11 PM »
Thank you for posting this information. :-)

terran

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 04:41:59 PM »
I think this would be a great resource.

I'm completing the last part of my non-lucrative visa to Spain. It's not that hard to do if you speak a little Spanish but I enlisted the help of an immigration lawyer.
The whole process should cost me a little under $600 and for that I would get a 1-year visa. There are multiple steps involved so it's good to have a spreadsheet where you write down each step and how it's coming along to help keep you on track. Or fork over $500 for a lawyer who'll walk you through everything.

Could you tell us a little about how hiring a lawyer helped you as compared to the process described here and here? How much of this process (or something like it if it was different when you started) did you still have to do yourself and how much did the lawyer handle for you?

Geographer

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 02:36:40 PM »
Wanted to revive this thread because I'm currently in Italy for work and love the idea of geoarbitrage and early retirement in Europe. I just went to Ljubljana Slovenia for the first time and absolutely loved it. Really cool city with a low cost of living. Does anyone have further details for what would be a good net worth number to retire there, and difficulty obtaining visas and residency?

Padonak

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2020, 02:52:51 PM »
Ptf

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2020, 04:32:16 PM »
Remember, in addition to visas, you have to think and plan for taxes, in your home country (particularly if American), and your “retired” country.

stepingum

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2020, 05:41:35 PM »
Definitely interested in following along! What do you know about former Soviet states?

Geographer

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 02:01:33 PM »
Remember, in addition to visas, you have to think and plan for taxes, in your home country (particularly if American), and your “retired” country.

Don't most European countries have a tax treaty with the US which allows for Foreign Tax Credit or Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to eliminate double taxation?

Bernard

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 04:08:03 PM »
I'm a US, German, and Swedish citizen. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Italy and very briefly in India. I have visited more countries than I can recount (50ish?). Fact is, very few of the 195 countries on Earth are retirement material, even with $1,000,000,000 in the bank.

Assuming you want an industrialized nation, not a banana republic, a safe environment, and a year-round good climate, I'd say Australia, Monaco, France, Italy, Spain (Costa del Sol) Switzerland (Lake Geneva), USA, and perhaps one or two others are what you're looking at.

Sure, if you have $1,500 per month to live off, Portugal is the sh*t, although you'd be dealing with the bottom of the barrel Europeans on a daily basis. If you have only $1K per month, Thailand comes to mind.

I don't know the pain of poking a fork into my eyeball or penis, but I can assure you it's the smaller of two evils comparing to having to live in Romania or Bulgaria. Not sure about Estonia. Most likely a dump of a country as well.

If you ask someone with a few billions in the bank where they live, given that they can live anywhere they want to, most live primarily in the United States or Monaco (no income tax). They of course have secondary residences in France, Italy (Lake Como), or the Caribbean. Nobody but a handful of wealthy folks chooses to live in the countries you listed.

DaMa

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 06:58:05 PM »
PTF

ysette9

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 08:54:57 PM »
I'm a US, German, and Swedish citizen. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Italy and very briefly in India. I have visited more countries than I can recount (50ish?). Fact is, very few of the 195 countries on Earth are retirement material, even with $1,000,000,000 in the bank.

Assuming you want an industrialized nation, not a banana republic, a safe environment, and a year-round good climate, I'd say Australia, Monaco, France, Italy, Spain (Costa del Sol) Switzerland (Lake Geneva), USA, and perhaps one or two others are what you're looking at.

Sure, if you have $1,500 per month to live off, Portugal is the sh*t, although you'd be dealing with the bottom of the barrel Europeans on a daily basis. If you have only $1K per month, Thailand comes to mind.

I don't know the pain of poking a fork into my eyeball or penis, but I can assure you it's the smaller of two evils comparing to having to live in Romania or Bulgaria. Not sure about Estonia. Most likely a dump of a country as well.

If you ask someone with a few billions in the bank where they live, given that they can live anywhere they want to, most live primarily in the United States or Monaco (no income tax). They of course have secondary residences in France, Italy (Lake Como), or the Caribbean. Nobody but a handful of wealthy folks chooses to live in the countries you listed.
I’m curious about your perpective here as you have seen so many countries. Can you elaborate more on what makes so many countries not good retirement choices? I imagine industrialized, strong rule of law, low corruption, good healthcare (does that rule out the US?), a tax code that isn’t too punishing for the rich leisure class, a culture that is reasonably welcoming, and the weather thing. Though weather is going to be different for different people. I’d sure as heck rather live in England than someplace hot like Italy and I am sure others will feel as strongly in the opposite direction.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 12:16:10 AM »
Remember, in addition to visas, you have to think and plan for taxes, in your home country (particularly if American), and your “retired” country.

Don't most European countries have a tax treaty with the US which allows for Foreign Tax Credit or Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to eliminate double taxation?

You’d hope. Still have to file in both countries and filing taxes for foreign locations is often complex. You may also need to consider if there is a wealth tax (Spain and the Netherlands).

beltim

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 12:30:14 AM »
Remember, in addition to visas, you have to think and plan for taxes, in your home country (particularly if American), and your “retired” country.

Don't most European countries have a tax treaty with the US which allows for Foreign Tax Credit or Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to eliminate double taxation?

You’d hope. Still have to file in both countries and filing taxes for foreign locations is often complex. You may also need to consider if there is a wealth tax (Spain and the Netherlands).

To expand on this, taxes get confusing if you have any specialized accounts in terms of taxation.  In the US, traditional retirement accounts are tax deferred and Roth account withdrawals are tax free in retirement.  Other countries may not regard these accounts the same way, and tax withdrawals as income or capital gains.

Also, Belgium and Switzerland also have wealth taxes, I believe on worldwide assets.

dcozad999

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 07:17:08 AM »
I'm a US, German, and Swedish citizen. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Italy and very briefly in India. I have visited more countries than I can recount (50ish?). Fact is, very few of the 195 countries on Earth are retirement material, even with $1,000,000,000 in the bank.

Assuming you want an industrialized nation, not a banana republic, a safe environment, and a year-round good climate, I'd say Australia, Monaco, France, Italy, Spain (Costa del Sol) Switzerland (Lake Geneva), USA, and perhaps one or two others are what you're looking at.

Sure, if you have $1,500 per month to live off, Portugal is the sh*t, although you'd be dealing with the bottom of the barrel Europeans on a daily basis. If you have only $1K per month, Thailand comes to mind.

I don't know the pain of poking a fork into my eyeball or penis, but I can assure you it's the smaller of two evils comparing to having to live in Romania or Bulgaria. Not sure about Estonia. Most likely a dump of a country as well.

If you ask someone with a few billions in the bank where they live, given that they can live anywhere they want to, most live primarily in the United States or Monaco (no income tax). They of course have secondary residences in France, Italy (Lake Como), or the Caribbean. Nobody but a handful of wealthy folks chooses to live in the countries you listed.


Could you please elaborate on Portugal and bottom of the barrel Europeans? Is this in regards to education? Crime? Or just general assholishness?

iris lily

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2020, 02:13:35 PM »
I'm a US, German, and Swedish citizen. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Italy and very briefly in India. I have visited more countries than I can recount (50ish?). Fact is, very few of the 195 countries on Earth are retirement material, even with $1,000,000,000 in the bank.

Assuming you want an industrialized nation, not a banana republic, a safe environment, and a year-round good climate, I'd say Australia, Monaco, France, Italy, Spain (Costa del Sol) Switzerland (Lake Geneva), USA, and perhaps one or two others are what you're looking at.

Sure, if you have $1,500 per month to live off, Portugal is the sh*t, although you'd be dealing with the bottom of the barrel Europeans on a daily basis. If you have only $1K per month, Thailand comes to mind.

I don't know the pain of poking a fork into my eyeball or penis, but I can assure you it's the smaller of two evils comparing to having to live in Romania or Bulgaria. Not sure about Estonia. Most likely a dump of a country as well.

If you ask someone with a few billions in the bank where they live, given that they can live anywhere they want to, most live primarily in the United States or Monaco (no income tax). They of course have secondary residences in France, Italy (Lake Como), or the Caribbean. Nobody but a handful of wealthy folks chooses to live in the countries you listed.

This is hilarious!

 Ttraveling recently in Romania, I priced out a little acreage and old house  similar to the one we have in small town flyover country here in the US. The outright purchase price was more in Romania.

While I loved vacationing in and viewing Transylvania and surrounding places in Romania, I can see the cultural problems there.

My next trip to Europe will be Estonia and Contiguous countries. I’m on a bender about Former Soviet bloc countries.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 06:21:52 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2020, 02:18:10 PM »
We travel to Switzerland all the time because we have relatives there, it’s bloody expensive. I’m not sure why anyone would retire there without pots of money.

That said, we did very vaguely entertain that notion because DH possibly could’ve gotten Swiss citizenship. But when we put pen to paper it was not doable, meeting all of the criteria. His mother was Swiss and he had some ins as part of that heritage.

I can’t imagine that Monaco would be inexpensive.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 04:54:11 PM by iris lily »

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Re: Retirement Abroad - Resources Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 05:03:19 PM »
I'm a US, German, and Swedish citizen. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Italy and very briefly in India. I have visited more countries than I can recount (50ish?). Fact is, very few of the 195 countries on Earth are retirement material, even with $1,000,000,000 in the bank.

Assuming you want an industrialized nation, not a banana republic, a safe environment, and a year-round good climate, I'd say Australia, Monaco, France, Italy, Spain (Costa del Sol) Switzerland (Lake Geneva), USA, and perhaps one or two others are what you're looking at.

Sure, if you have $1,500 per month to live off, Portugal is the sh*t, although you'd be dealing with the bottom of the barrel Europeans on a daily basis. If you have only $1K per month, Thailand comes to mind.

I don't know the pain of poking a fork into my eyeball or penis, but I can assure you it's the smaller of two evils comparing to having to live in Romania or Bulgaria. Not sure about Estonia. Most likely a dump of a country as well.

If you ask someone with a few billions in the bank where they live, given that they can live anywhere they want to, most live primarily in the United States or Monaco (no income tax). They of course have secondary residences in France, Italy (Lake Como), or the Caribbean. Nobody but a handful of wealthy folks chooses to live in the countries you listed.




I'll have to remember to only eat with a spoon if I visit Romania or Bulgaria, or bring my own fork from home!  LOL!  :)