The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Case on November 13, 2017, 05:02:10 AM
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I have generally been on the fence about whether or not to have children. In the past my wife has been more strongly against it. However, a few months ago she changed her mind and wants one (as long as I do to). She is not a flippant person, she typically makes sound not-to-be-regretted decisions. Therefore we have been planning to consider things for a few months and then make a firm choice.
I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
Certainly raising a child will be a new fulfilling activity in its own regards... these are just all very new thoughts to me.
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
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You can definitely travel with a child, internationally or otherwise. I know many people that travel internationally with a baby or young child(ren). I probably wouldn't backpack with a toddler but, again, I know people who do it. We were much more mobile with one easy going child then we are with two but we still travel regularly.
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When you say that you've been "on the fence," I think you need to articulate for yourself (not necessarily here) why you were on the fence. Maybe journaling or talking to a trusted friend who can be neutral but also ask you probing questions could help. Or a therapist, honestly--maybe for both of you, to facilitate this conversation. It's a huge shift to make, and can greatly affect your marriage, depending on what you each decide and how that decision is made.
For me, I've been pretty set on being childfree, my husband is more of a fence sitter, but we've always said if there was a birth control failure, we'd be okay with that. Everyone tells us what great parents we'd be, though I think some of that is just cultural and a thing that people say in our area (midwest) since having kids is the norm.
A child will definitely totally change your life, but if you're a pretty relaxed person and can go with the flow and enjoy it, I think having a kid can be a great adventure--they will surprise, delight, frustrate, engage, etc. as they grow up, and take a huge amount of time and energy, but you get the joy of their presence as long as both you and they exist on this planet (assuming you don't irreparably damage your relationship with them somehow!). How is your relationship with your own parents? How was your childhood? If both of those are good and positive, you likely have a good chance of repeating that success. Even if the answers to those are bad and bad, you can be aware of that and try not to repeat those mistakes. You need to be aware of your own shortcomings because they WILL be tested by being in charge of another human being's care and wellbeing for a number of years (and, as another poster pointed out, that number of years could be the child's whole life if there are medical issues). You also never stop being a parent, even if your kid grows up successfully--you'll likely always want to know they are doing well, want to support them in tough times, etc.
I'd also suggest spending time with kids--either relatives or friends' kids, maybe for an evening of babysitting so you and your wife can get a taste for kids at various ages. Everyone says you feel different about your own kids vs. other people's, but it's a good test of your abilities to at least try changing diapers, run after toddlers, engage with preschoolers, and hang out with school aged kids or teens.
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These are one of those moments that if you're not saying, "fuck yeah!".... then it's no.
I think it's an interesting tell that all your concerns are about what happens to YOU and YOUR lifestyle. In full transparency, we decided to not have children for the very reasons that you point out. We knew ourselves enough to know that we weren't willing to give up certain things/lifestyle/stress-less to have children - they're a huge commitment....and you can't give them back :)
I fully enjoy being around children (most times), but I think it's a whole different ball game when you are fully responsible for them. In fairness to the children, you need to be 100% all-in -- this is not something you do half-ass.
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Kids change EVERYTHING.
To the extent that, if you end up having kids, you will look back and think, "Damn, what the hell did we do with all the free time we used to have?" Your independence is GONE. Yes, you can still do fun things, but you have to consider tons of factors you didn't have to consider before.
Having to think about the welfare of a totally dependent child (or children!) is mentally exhausting, but it becomes the new reality and you get accustomed to it.
My kiddos are smart, funny, and pretty well behaved, so I feel like I sorta hit the lottery when I look at parents with wild children, but still I do thought experiments all the time about how much "me" time I would have had with no kids. Or just how much less stress I'd have. I can't imagine laying on the beach with my wife and not having to worry about anyone else right that minute.
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Having kids is exhausting. Some days I hate parenting; some days are just ....perfect.
If you don't have kids and don't spend a ton of time with them, then it's normal to be wondering mostly about how they would affect YOUR life. You don't know anything else to think about.
The first 12 months were hardest for me - I had trouble managing the infant, the house, my job, and my marriage. My husband got the short end of the stick, and he needed a lot of my attention to feel loved. Our marriage made it through the first kid, but not infancy of the second. If I had it to do all over again .... I'd still have both of my kids, because they are awesome little people who drive me crazy and force me to confront my own issues (hard to be a control freak when raising an incredibly strong-willed child) and I don't want to imagine life without them.
Most small kids are infinitely portable. I hiked around the Canadian Rockies with a 6-month-old strapped to my front (and passed a woman hiking with an 8-week old in a sling). (We did sleep at a hotel at night rather than go backcountry. I don't camp.) I hiked the Ozarks with a 3-year-year-old in a backpack. After that, she was too heavy for me to carry, and her little legs got tired after 2 miles, so we left her with grandparents when we wanted to hike, until she got bigger.
Toddler years were hardest FOR ME, because they need SO MUCH and can be SO STUBBORN. I felt like I had very limited free time, and most of my hobbies went on hold. Now that they are all in school, we have time to ourselves again! Not a lot, but more than we did.
I finally figured out that the key to parenting (at least my brood) is to be flexible and look for the joy in everything, even the setbacks. (Except 6-hour karate tournaments; I'm still working on finding the joy in that.) Plus we taught them to enjoy the same things that we enjoy, so we can all do those things together. We spend a lot of time outdoors, a lot of time with books and video games, and the youngest is even fascinated with his stepdad's woodworking projects.
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Having a child changes your life in a similar way to getting married. You go to the store, hand in your old life, and get a completely new life in return. Your new life will have both wonders to behold and struggles to overcome. You will hardly see some of your old friends. You will become closer to some new ones. It is not necessarily better or worse.
If you decide you want kids, have them by age 35 if you can. The early stages of parenting are physically tiring. After a few years, it becomes more of a mental, psychological exercise. I waited until almost age 40, and those early years are a blur.
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Kids change everything, including *you* and your priorities. What I wanted before I had kids and afterwards really were not the same.
If you want to have a kid, you will still be able to travel and backpack if those things are important to you. Just be aware that your priorities may shift in ways you can't predict at this point.
But if you really don't want kids, you really shouldn't have them. Kids deserve to be longed for, IMO.
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I’d ask yourself: what’s motivating you to have kids? Do you or your wife feel like something is missing? Do you feel you’re not adult enough? Do you feel left out of the conversations with friends?
Kids are a commitment and too many people have kids who frankly shouldn’t and that comes out at some point. Yes, lots of people make do, it’s not easy. It’s ok to not want them. If you do, your current plans will change, they have to. That doesn’t mean it will get worse, just not the same.
My only strong recommendation is for you and your wife to go get tested, make sure everything is working, and freeze some eggs and sperm. That way, if you decide to FIRE and then change your mind and want kids, you’ll have more options if you’re a bit older—age matters for conceiving, not parenting.
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
A child having a condition like that seems like it is something that just ruins your life. It's one of my chief concerns. We did have genetic testing done to make sure we weren't carriers of certain genes. But of course that isn't a guarantee.
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I’d ask yourself: what’s motivating you to have kids? Do you or your wife feel like something is missing? Do you feel you’re not adult enough? Do you feel left out of the conversations with friends?
Kids are a commitment and too many people have kids who frankly shouldn’t and that comes out at some point. Yes, lots of people make do, it’s not easy. It’s ok to not want them. If you do, your current plans will change, they have to. That doesn’t mean it will get worse, just not the same.
My only strong recommendation is for you and your wife to go get tested, make sure everything is working, and freeze some eggs and sperm. That way, if you decide to FIRE and then change your mind and want kids, you’ll have more options if you’re a bit older—age matters for conceiving, not parenting.
The motivation is the possibility of a very fulfilling/satisfying experience of getting to know/shape/teach someone, etc... I'm not really one of those persons who sees a baby and gets all giddy. I don't really have a deep yearning to care for infant. It's more about forming a long term bond and getting to teach all the life lessons as I see them, watching someone grow from zero, etc... I don't feel that something is missing in my life, per se... I'm not trying to fill a void with a child. I don't feel left out of conversations with my friends, even though a lot of my good friends have kids. Rather, I'm more trying to fill a void with all of the stuff I want to do when I FIRE. Because of the career path I chose, which involved going to grad school, and now living in a very boring midwestern town, there are lots of things I'd like to go do and places I'd like to see. This is more the motivation not to have kids, though I wonder if there are hybrid scenarios where I can have the best of both worlds.
We are early/mid 30s now, so timing is becoming a factor.
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I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
Absolutely, yes. All that will be compromised. Any plan that you have for yourself, and your current expectations and accustomed norms regarding free time will be completely compromised.
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I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
I'm actually not sure how to answer your question without sounding flippant and bitter, but we also currently have a toddler.
I'd almost say you have it flipped. Nothing about having a kid stops you from travelling if you really want to, but in regards to the other stuff, kids seem to be ernormous time sinks (and energy, physically and mentally). So much more than I thought before. But I naively had no experience with kids, so perhaps I hadn't set my expectations low enough.
As for fulfilling? I'm still on the fence about that, but waiting to see if it changes
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One way to view having children is they are a very intensive investment. You expend a lot of energy (and money) before you get the ROI. Certainly that point is different for everyone. If you don't absolutely adore infants, it will be several years until you can have a fulfilling conversation with them. Not to forget, you would need to recalculate your FIRE date. Another thing to check is whether your wife and your grandparents are indeed willing to put in the necessary effort you think they are willing to provide.
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For me the mental investment is much bigger than the financial investment. Don't get me wrong, the financial investment is big, but the responsibility of being in charge of another human being for years and years and years is challenging to say the least. There are great times and some very NOT great times. We are in a not great time right now and I love my children, but the stress and anxiety is high. If I wasn't 200% on this journey I don't know if I could stick it out and cope. Saying it's a big commitment doesn't even scratch the surface sometimes.
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PTF
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I’d ask yourself: what’s motivating you to have kids? Do you or your wife feel like something is missing? Do you feel you’re not adult enough? Do you feel left out of the conversations with friends?
Kids are a commitment and too many people have kids who frankly shouldn’t and that comes out at some point. Yes, lots of people make do, it’s not easy. It’s ok to not want them. If you do, your current plans will change, they have to. That doesn’t mean it will get worse, just not the same.
My only strong recommendation is for you and your wife to go get tested, make sure everything is working, and freeze some eggs and sperm. That way, if you decide to FIRE and then change your mind and want kids, you’ll have more options if you’re a bit older—age matters for conceiving, not parenting.
The motivation is the possibility of a very fulfilling/satisfying experience of getting to know/shape/teach someone, etc... I'm not really one of those persons who sees a baby and gets all giddy. I don't really have a deep yearning to care for infant. It's more about forming a long term bond and getting to teach all the life lessons as I see them, watching someone grow from zero, etc... I don't feel that something is missing in my life, per se... I'm not trying to fill a void with a child. I don't feel left out of conversations with my friends, even though a lot of my good friends have kids. Rather, I'm more trying to fill a void with all of the stuff I want to do when I FIRE. Because of the career path I chose, which involved going to grad school, and now living in a very boring midwestern town, there are lots of things I'd like to go do and places I'd like to see. This is more the motivation not to have kids, though I wonder if there are hybrid scenarios where I can have the best of both worlds.
We are early/mid 30s now, so timing is becoming a factor.
There are so many other ways to pass on your teaching and wisdom without having kids. Volunteer for an organization like Big Brother/Sister, foster kids, coach a sport. You could travel to places and work with disadvantaged kids. You can definitely have the best of both worlds without having a child. The one thing you don’t want is to have a child and then feel resentful.
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
A child having a condition like that seems like it is something that just ruins your life. It's one of my chief concerns. We did have genetic testing done to make sure we weren't carriers of certain genes. But of course that isn't a guarantee.
Just my opinion, but I do you really want kids? You sound like you are more concerned how it will affect your life. My opinion doesn't mean jack since I have none, but I always assumed that the life you're used to comes a close second to the well being of the child? Kids got a test on Monday? No hiking this weekend....kid has to study! Kid needs new clothes? Oops....that martial arts class is out of the budget. ect, ect.
Many of my surfing buddies flat out stopped surfing when the kids were born. It take a commitment to get to the beach early for a surf and accomplish what needs to be done during the day. Many grew fat and now ride longboards when the kids grew up. ;)
However, I doubt anyone of these men would trade it for anything else. Parenthood must be a very rewarding experience I'm sure
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As a childfree person, can I just say thank you for all the thoughtful replies. On other sites I click on threads like this because it’s like a train wreck and I can’t look away from all the people dismissing very valid concerns. Raising children is HARD, and it’s nice to see the less than joyous parts recognized. I have a sneaking suspicion that those of you who have kids and are willing to recognize and share your challenges are excellent parents raising thoughtful kids. Better you than me :)
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Having kids:
1) Totally derailed my life and all my plans for it, and
2) is the most worthwhile thing I ever did.
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Having kids:
1) Totally derailed my life and all my plans for it, and
2) is the most worthwhile thing I ever did.
Quoted for the truth.
(Except I had three)
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Oh man. Don't have a kid if you aren't ready to give up almost all the selfishness in your life. It's okay to want your life to be only about you and your spouse. It's not okay to have a kid but not want to do the endless work of raising them and putting them first most of the time.
+1 to earlier commenters who suggested counselling to understand your wife's change of heart. Also find out what each of you has as a mental picture of life with a child. For the first decade, someone will always need to be watching the kid, and fantasies of grandparents happily providing regular free babysitting shouldn't figure heavily into your plan. Ask yourself how you'll feel if you are both raising a child and taking care of infirm grandparents.
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Parenting is hard. Kids are cute but noisy, messy and annoying. Sometimes disgusting. Can also be extremely funny and entertaining. You never know who you get.
Your also react differently to your own kids. Ya know, other people have little monsters, but yours might be absolutely perfect.
We travel a lot with them, crazy camping trips, boat trips, 24 hr long haul flights... you name it. It can be done. It is more expensive to pay for 4 plane tickets, but we are saving on accomodation (hotels are out), fancy restaurants, bars....They restrict what you can visit and when, but once you accept the fact that travelling with kids has a different dynamics, you can have a great time.
It is ok not to like kids. It is also ok to choose not to have kids.
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
A child having a condition like that seems like it is something that just ruins your life. It's one of my chief concerns. We did have genetic testing done to make sure we weren't carriers of certain genes. But of course that isn't a guarantee.
You're missing the point. Once you have kids, the life you used to have is GONE. It can't be ruined because it no longer exists. If you're not willing to accept that, don't have kids.
As other posters have said, your new life will be a series of small sacrifices that you will have to make for 18+ years. Case Jr. has a cold and can't go to school, so who stays home with him/her and misses an important meeting at work? Oh, you don't feel like cooking tonight so you'll just skip dinner? Can't do that with a kid. Want to use the bathroom with the door closed? Good luck! Want to take a vacation the last week of June? Oops, can't, because Case Jr.'s baseball league is still playing and they'd miss 3 games. Guess how it feels to turn down a promotion / raise / awesome career opportunity because you're in a great school district and don't want to disrupt Junior's education mid-year by moving.
I love my kids unconditionally but they are a total PITA. I felt like I won the lottery the first Sunday I could sleep in because the older one could make the both of them breakfast.
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I love my kids unconditionally but they are a total PITA. I felt like I won the lottery the first Sunday I could sleep in because the older one could make the both of them breakfast.
YES! We actually taught the youngest to make his own peanut butter and jelly sandwiches when he was 3 because we were tired of hearing "MAMA, I's HUNGRY".
As for kids with disabilities - that's a complete crapshoot. My oldest was born 8 weeks early and had to be on a machine to monitor her breathing for 6 months. She's now almost 12 and is bigger, stronger, and healthier than I am. My youngest was born 5 weeks early with the cord wrapped around his neck and had no oxygen for 60 seconds; he had to be life-flighted to a better hospital (worst moment of my life, seeing the infant I'd just met take off in a helicopter without me). He's now 8 years old and has inherited all my genetic health issues (defective eyes and ears) but is otherwise healthy as a horse and way too bright.
In both cases, other kids born at the same hospital on the same day ended up with disabilities. Why them and not my kids? I don't know. The pediatrician did threaten to send all preemies to our house, because apparently something we were doing worked to grow healthy infants.
My husband and I talked very candidly before becoming pregnant. We discussed under what circumstances we might agree to terminate a pregnancy. Because of that, we chose not to even test for Downs' Syndrome (which runs in my family), because it wouldn't change our choices. It might change other people's. You must be on the same page for that.
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Having a child changes your life in a similar way to getting married. You go to the store, hand in your old life, and get a completely new life in return. Your new life will have both wonders to behold and struggles to overcome. You will hardly see some of your old friends. You will become closer to some new ones. It is not necessarily better or worse.
If you decide you want kids, have them by age 35 if you can. The early stages of parenting are physically tiring. After a few years, it becomes more of a mental, psychological exercise. I waited until almost age 40, and those early years are a blur.
+1
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I haven't slept a full night in 11 years. But, I love them. It's so cool to watch our little people grow, learn, explore the world. As with everything, there are tradeoffs, there are good days and bad days. I miss some things from the first 11 childless married years, but these past 11 yrs / 3 kids have been fun too.
Money wise the biggest expense so far was giving up 1 salary so we could do a SAHP and avoid daycare & extra stress of two full time working parents. It's worked out, though, with careful planning.
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I have generally been on the fence about whether or not to have children. In the past my wife has been more strongly against it. However, a few months ago she changed her mind and wants one (as long as I do to). She is not a flippant person, she typically makes sound not-to-be-regretted decisions. Therefore we have been planning to consider things for a few months and then make a firm choice.
I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
Certainly raising a child will be a new fulfilling activity in its own regards... these are just all very new thoughts to me.
Thanks all for the opinions. I think another aspect I would be interested in is the impact of raising kids while retired-early vs not retired. Any thoughts?
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I have generally been on the fence about whether or not to have children. In the past my wife has been more strongly against it. However, a few months ago she changed her mind and wants one (as long as I do to). She is not a flippant person, she typically makes sound not-to-be-regretted decisions. Therefore we have been planning to consider things for a few months and then make a firm choice.
I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
Certainly raising a child will be a new fulfilling activity in its own regards... these are just all very new thoughts to me.
Thanks all for the opinions. I think another aspect I would be interested in is the impact of raising kids while retired-early vs not retired. Any thoughts?
For that, look to MMM himself--retired before having kids. For the other thing, look at everyone else (working, juggling childcare, one parent staying home while one works, etc.). It might work to do a hybrid--maybe your wife stops working once baby is born, and you work a little longer to reach FIRE, and then you both get to stay home.
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I have the impression that having a child with two fulltime working parent, or one fulltime working single parent is very stressful. Getting a child after young retirement, or with the option of one or two parents working less than fulltime would be a much better solution.
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I have generally been on the fence about whether or not to have children. In the past my wife has been more strongly against it. However, a few months ago she changed her mind and wants one (as long as I do to). She is not a flippant person, she typically makes sound not-to-be-regretted decisions. Therefore we have been planning to consider things for a few months and then make a firm choice.
I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
Certainly raising a child will be a new fulfilling activity in its own regards... these are just all very new thoughts to me.
Thanks all for the opinions. I think another aspect I would be interested in is the impact of raising kids while retired-early vs not retired. Any thoughts?
I wanted a baby more than anything else. (Fertility treatments, etc.) My SO felt the same. We were SURE.
Parenting is by far the hardest thing I have ever done.
It's also awesome! And YMMV depending on if your kid sleeps and eats without issues, which ours did not. But when nobody123 says your former life is gone, that's how it was for us, too. My SO had the hardest time with the little things - you can't just go read a book for an hour because you feel like it, or sleep in on a snow day. I had the hardest time with bigger things, like working in my dream job but having days I barely saw the baby. Everything is a spousal negotiation and for the first year literally everything was hard.
Pre-kids I thought that people on the fence should probably go for it. I don't anymore. Now I think it's better to really, really want it, so some part of you is still grateful & joyful the ninth month you haven't slept through the night, the twentieth time you're spit up on, the 7836th time you wash a bottle. Personally we felt like we needed kids to fully feel the human experience, and we're so, so glad we did, but I'm also a little bit glad we had to work so hard to get pregnant, because I'm glad I had to be so sure.
We aren't FIREd but I dropped to part-time this week because I needed more time with the baby. (Boring, dirty, repetitive, frustrating, joyful, exciting, amazing time!) Watching kids while ERed means no/fewer adult breaks unless you can schedule (and possibly pay for) them; some people are desperate to get back to work and some appreciate every minute of time. Hard to know which until you've figured out if and how you want to parent!
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I have generally been on the fence about whether or not to have children. In the past my wife has been more strongly against it. However, a few months ago she changed her mind and wants one (as long as I do to). She is not a flippant person, she typically makes sound not-to-be-regretted decisions. Therefore we have been planning to consider things for a few months and then make a firm choice.
I'm needing to reconsider how having a child will impact my/our future life, and I'd appreciate any general comments people have. I could even use help thinking of what questions to ask myself. I'm quite naive in regards to the realities of raising a child. I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away). I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
There are some things that I think would not be very much affected, such as learning new hobbies (playing musical instrument, learning a martial art, etc...). Other things like travel (especially international) and backpacking seem like they would be significantly affected... to some degree could only be enabled by sending the child to grandma's/grandpa's for on occasion. Certainly our independence is impacted, right? I guess when the child becomes old enough, they can join in on the trips?
Certainly raising a child will be a new fulfilling activity in its own regards... these are just all very new thoughts to me.
Thanks all for the opinions. I think another aspect I would be interested in is the impact of raising kids while retired-early vs not retired. Any thoughts?
Caveat: I don't have kids, but DH and I desperately want to start a family in the next few years. Here's our plan (financially).
At 30, we will have accumulated 60% of our FIRE number, which is plenty of FU money for us. We will then have our first child, and because of said FU money, I'll have the leverage to ask for a year sabbatical and then return on a part-time schedule. If my employer doesn't go for it, then I'll become a SAHM, while DH supports us on just his salary. After our second child, even DH will drop to part-time, which will bring in enough to cover living expenses but not much to actively save.
Over 10 years, our investments should grow to our FIRE number naturally even if we don't add in any extra savings. But as an extra buffer, when our children are older and in school, we both plan to ramp back up to more hours and pad our stash. I'll get a job at a garden center if I have to just for some adult interaction :)
So to answer your question, we will not be fully retired yet when we have children, but have a plan in place to have our investments grow naturally to our FIRE number over time while lessening the pressure to juggle work and family. Yes, it significantly pushes back our FIRE date (by approx 5-7 years), but it is worth it to us to first build enough FU money and then have a less stressful home life and more time with our children. We will always be able to make enough money to cover living expenses because we keep them so low and DH is in a high-paying field.
We came up with this plan because we very much want to have children, but a bit earlier than would be optimal for FIRE (my family has a history of infertility issues). So while we won't be retired while raising kids, our jobs will have few hours and more time to spend with our family, and in the end we will still hit our target FIRE number.
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Wow.
I'm just not understanding all these responses about "you old life will be over" and "don't do it if you're not 1000% crazy about the idea", etc.
Having a kid or two will change things, and yes it's difficult. But, god damn, it's not like doing 20 in prison or being confined to a wheelchair.
For every person you see walking around, someone had a kid. In most cases they lived through it.
You'll have challenges to overcome that you wouldn't have without kids, and rewards and regrets to reap, but you'll still be you.
Both of my kids were unplanned, childish mistakes. "I'm pregnant" was not good news. We had no money and few prospects. But we turned all that around. And with kids now in their mid-twenties and living good lives, I'm super glad I had them. A deeper love you cannot imagine.
So, ease up. Pump out some kids. Again, parenthood is not a prison sentence, a death sentence, or a one-way ticket to Mars. It's just parenthood. Goes on all over the place all the time.
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From a non-financial perspective...
Honestly, I would have paid someone to let me go back to work when the kids were toddlers. I was a SAHM for 9 months and I was miserable. There are people who thrive when surrounded by small children. Then there are those who want to run away screaming. I am one of the latter; I love them best in small doses. (The sad thing is that 3 years old is really my favorite age - they are AWESOME then, but still too much for 100% at home with mom.)
Once they started school (and were therefore gone for multiple hours per day), I wanted to be home with them. My husband was a part-time SAHD for the last 3 years, and it worked out great for our family. I hope to have the chance to work part-time in a few years to be home with them more.
My kids are more expensive than I thought; having them will likely adjust the amount you think you need for FIRE.
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Another thought on this issue in general: If you assign "points" to the amount of change a child brings to your life, the first one is 100. In my experience, though, the second one is about 30, and subsequent ones about 20.
Literally everything changes - you reach heights of joy and love that are previously incomprehensible. You also reach lows of frustration and despair that make you question your entire worth as a human being. You grow and change along with the child (although in completely different areas), and I think if you make every effort to be a good parent you will be a better, richer person at the end. It's very hard at times, though, no denying that.
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Another thought on this issue in general: If you assign "points" to the amount of change a child brings to your life, the first one is 100. In my experience, though, the second one is about 30, and subsequent ones about 20.
Literally everything changes - you reach heights of joy and love that are previously incomprehensible. You also reach lows of frustration and despair that make you question your entire worth as a human being. You grow and change along with the child (although in completely different areas), and I think if you make every effort to be a good parent you will be a better, richer person at the end. It's very hard at times, though, no denying that.
+100 to this post.
Except the sentence I've bolded. Really? Are sure that's not hyperbole? I'm hesitant to doubt someone else's experience, but damn, take it easy on yourself. I do have pretty regrets about some of what went on during my parenting phase, but nothing that intense.
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Really? Are sure that's not hyperbole?
Not hyperbole. When you haven't slept more than a couple of hours for three nights, and the baby is colicky and still crying, and you have to go to work where people are counting on your contribution ... bad thoughts can go through your head, and you start to wonder what kind of person you are. Of course it all goes away with a good night's sleep and the baby's smiles :-)
This is not even touching the late teen years.
I can see how some people might have a great partner and an easy baby, or just more self-confidence, and it might not be so bad. I'm betting every parent has had some pretty low points, though.
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Wow.
I'm just not understanding all these responses about "you old life will be over" and "don't do it if you're not 1000% crazy about the idea", etc.
Having a kid or two will change things, and yes it's difficult. But, god damn, it's not like doing 20 in prison or being confined to a wheelchair.
For every person you see walking around, someone had a kid. In most cases they lived through it.
You'll have challenges to overcome that you wouldn't have without kids, and rewards and regrets to reap, but you'll still be you.
Both of my kids were unplanned, childish mistakes. "I'm pregnant" was not good news. We had no money and few prospects. But we turned all that around. And with kids now in their mid-twenties and living good lives, I'm super glad I had them. A deeper love you cannot imagine.
So, ease up. Pump out some kids. Again, parenthood is not a prison sentence, a death sentence, or a one-way ticket to Mars. It's just parenthood. Goes on all over the place all the time.
Ugh.
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Wow.
I'm just not understanding all these responses about "you old life will be over" and "don't do it if you're not 1000% crazy about the idea", etc.
Having a kid or two will change things, and yes it's difficult. But, god damn, it's not like doing 20 in prison or being confined to a wheelchair.
For every person you see walking around, someone had a kid. In most cases they lived through it.
You'll have challenges to overcome that you wouldn't have without kids, and rewards and regrets to reap, but you'll still be you.
Both of my kids were unplanned, childish mistakes. "I'm pregnant" was not good news. We had no money and few prospects. But we turned all that around. And with kids now in their mid-twenties and living good lives, I'm super glad I had them. A deeper love you cannot imagine.
So, ease up. Pump out some kids. Again, parenthood is not a prison sentence, a death sentence, or a one-way ticket to Mars. It's just parenthood. Goes on all over the place all the time.
Ugh.
It was only a matter of time, really.
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
A child having a condition like that seems like it is something that just ruins your life. It's one of my chief concerns. We did have genetic testing done to make sure we weren't carriers of certain genes. But of course that isn't a guarantee.
We're the same age, struggling with the same question and this is also one of my chief concerns. Where did you have the genetic testing done? Was there a name for this?
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Please don't have a child if you don't want one. Your life COMPLETELY CHANGES in ways you can't possibly fathom. If you're actually worried about how a child will affect your ability to backpack or learn to play the piano, you're not in the right state of mind. What happens if the child is born with a chronic medical condition and your life now revolves around the care of that child, and ensuring that care can continue after you and your wife have passed away?
I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
A child having a condition like that seems like it is something that just ruins your life. It's one of my chief concerns. We did have genetic testing done to make sure we weren't carriers of certain genes. But of course that isn't a guarantee.
I know you don't mean it like I read it, but as a mother of two disabled kids, this sounds rather harsh.
Kids are small humans. There is something different with everyone. The baby that looks like doll, with its 10 perfect toes, can in a few years show symptoms of autism. The lovely, sweet, well behaved little girl, can be caught up in a deep depression even before she hits puberty. Accidents happen all the time, leaving kids in wheelchairs or with brain damage. None of this will really matter: they are still really cool people that you will love with your entire being.
You can't test for everything, or even prepare for most things. Part of being a parent is playing with the cards you are dealt, and loving your kids for what they are. That includes changing plans at the blink of an eye, and adapting to the needs of the kid.
Can you spend time playing music? Probably, but it might happen that the best time for practicing is at 4 o'clock in the night when the baby is awake and thinks everything is funny. Can you travel with the kid? Sure, but you have to find the type of travel that suits the entire family. For some, airplanes are torture, but camping in the wilderness is great fun. For other families, it is the other way around. If you try to make those plans and decisions before you have met the little person, you will be disappointed.
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Wow.
I'm just not understanding all these responses about "you old life will be over" and "don't do it if you're not 1000% crazy about the idea", etc.
Having a kid or two will change things, and yes it's difficult. But, god damn, it's not like doing 20 in prison or being confined to a wheelchair.
For every person you see walking around, someone had a kid. In most cases they lived through it.
You'll have challenges to overcome that you wouldn't have without kids, and rewards and regrets to reap, but you'll still be you.
Both of my kids were unplanned, childish mistakes. "I'm pregnant" was not good news. We had no money and few prospects. But we turned all that around. And with kids now in their mid-twenties and living good lives, I'm super glad I had them. A deeper love you cannot imagine.
So, ease up. Pump out some kids. Again, parenthood is not a prison sentence, a death sentence, or a one-way ticket to Mars. It's just parenthood. Goes on all over the place all the time.
Ugh.
LMAO. Back when my wife's parents still held the dream of us giving them grandkids, my mother-in-law took my wife aside one day and literally told her she should just "push out a kid" and promised to do the heavy lifting in taking care of it for her.
My wife and I can't stand kids, nor the idea of every having one. Unbeknownst to anybody else in either of our families I was snipped over five years ago...but the dream lives on lol....
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Lots of strong reactions here. Kids do change everything. Any addition to your life changes everything. How much it changes depends on how your life is structured now. If you have a home centered life, with maybe pet or livestock responsibilities, and you have a partner to help, good family support and financial stability? Kids will fit right into the chaos, with their very own brand of it! If you live in an immaculate apartment in the city center, with money problems, too little time, and you've never even raised a plant? You're going to go through hell, my friend. If I were you, I'd think long and hard about whether you want children, completely apart from the question of whether or not they'll change stuff. Just be aware that at a certain point there is no longer a choice. So make the right one.
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Haven't read all the responses. But, with two kids, I can say kids make a huge difference in our lives. It will be one of the hardest things you've done (it is a lifelong deal - you never stop being a parent) and one of the most satisfying, wonderful things in life. It's truly amazing to see a tiny baby grow up to be a toddler that can understand and communicate who becomes a kid who can do everything himself to a full fledged adult who contributes to the society.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
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I am a strong believer in that the questions that we are most seeking an answer for - we already have or know within ourselves.
Hopefully, reading the MMM community members' perspectives continues to give you additional insights into your own thoughts. maybe some responses felt viscerally agreeable and others not? If so, that may give you more clues into what it is you're already thinking.
I have no stats to back me up on this - but I have a hunch that if you're an MMMer, asking these questions, and thinking through this decision, and having these discussions with your wife respectfully and honestly, AND with your demonstrated willingness to ask for help when you need it...it means [insert answer that comes to mind immediately here]
wishing you the best of luck!
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You should have a positive yes in your gut before planning to have kids.
Kids don't ruin a life, and you can do a lot of things with them, some things so much better (like going swimming or to the beach is way more fun with your own kids). But man, it has gotta be a clear "YES!". You need to put the kids first for just about everything, for a long time.
That said, many wonderful parents out there had surprise kids, so it is possible to make a wonderful opportunity out of it, but for planning in advance, yeah. It's got to be all in or nothing.
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How much it changes depends on how your life is structured now. If you have a home centered life, with maybe pet or livestock responsibilities, and you have a partner to help, good family support and financial stability? Kids will fit right into the chaos, with their very own brand of it!
I lived a home centered life, with a dog to take care of, a great partner to help, good family support and financial stability. My kid has not fit right in, but required radical (and occasionally painful) changes to every aspect of my life. :P
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I agree that much emphasis is being put into "your old life is over", etc. Sure, it is a huge change. But children come to add and enrich your life, not make it burdensome. And while A LOT of your life revolves around them (and it is very exhausting at times), you are still YOU. Just a matter of organizing yourself. My husband still does paragliding and kittesurfs, while I am with the kids. About once a week he gets together with friends and plays in a band. In contrast, if I want to spend a few hours at the beach, read a book, go to a spa, go to dinner / happy hour with my friends, it is my husband who stays with the kids. If we both want to go out for dinner, we get a babysitter or ask the grandparents if they are in town. We also have travelled extensively with them. Travelling is huge for us and there is no way we would give that up. My 6 year old has been to 14 countries, while my 2 year old has been to 6. Our trips with kids are AWESOME and keep getting better.
We were at the fence for a long time. On a whim, decided to make it a go (no 100% certainty... maybe 80%)? How are you ever 100% sure of something? At 35 I had our son. Deciding whether to have the second was way harder. We were finally done with the toddler years, and felt "we got this," life was certainly easier. Decided to open a small (3 month) window of opportunity (just not to say we didn't try) and sure enough, pregnant again at 39. The sweetest, most loved baby girl in the world.
For us it was sooooooo worth it. Love those two so much. We are easygoing, flexible about most things but make sure the kids understand that they are part of the family as opposed to everything revolving around them (which is inevitable sometimes, but...). Very glad I waited till mid-thirties. Have done a lot of what I wanted to do already, am more self assured, and ready to dedicate a lot of my time to them. My life has for sure only benefitted with this change. Good luck with your decision!
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Wow.
I'm just not understanding all these responses about "you old life will be over" and "don't do it if you're not 1000% crazy about the idea", etc.
Having a kid or two will change things, and yes it's difficult. But, god damn, it's not like doing 20 in prison or being confined to a wheelchair.
For every person you see walking around, someone had a kid. In most cases they lived through it.
You'll have challenges to overcome that you wouldn't have without kids, and rewards and regrets to reap, but you'll still be you.
Both of my kids were unplanned, childish mistakes. "I'm pregnant" was not good news. We had no money and few prospects. But we turned all that around. And with kids now in their mid-twenties and living good lives, I'm super glad I had them. A deeper love you cannot imagine.
So, ease up. Pump out some kids. Again, parenthood is not a prison sentence, a death sentence, or a one-way ticket to Mars. It's just parenthood. Goes on all over the place all the time.
Ugh.
It was only a matter of time, really.
A bit indelicate, perhaps...
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Really? Are sure that's not hyperbole?
Not hyperbole. When you haven't slept more than a couple of hours for three nights, and the baby is colicky and still crying, and you have to go to work where people are counting on your contribution ... bad thoughts can go through your head, and you start to wonder what kind of person you are. Of course it all goes away with a good night's sleep and the baby's smiles :-)
This is not even touching the late teen years.
I can see how some people might have a great partner and an easy baby, or just more self-confidence, and it might not be so bad. I'm betting every parent has had some pretty low points, though.
Like fantasizing about smothering the little fucker with a pillow? Yeah, been there. Letting them cry a little (or a lot) too long before getting up? Yeah. Getting so depressed that your spouse is afraid to leave you alone with the kid? Not me, but my wife, yes.
But, those shouldn't make you doubt your worth as a human being. Those things should, frankly, be expected. They're perfectly natural reactions to the situation. Do I feel a twinge of guilt, still? Sure, but I have to be as sympathetic to myself (and others) as I am to the baby.
Anyway, no regrets about having kids - even in a less than ideal situation.
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Really? Are sure that's not hyperbole?
Not hyperbole. When you haven't slept more than a couple of hours for three nights, and the baby is colicky and still crying, and you have to go to work where people are counting on your contribution ... bad thoughts can go through your head, and you start to wonder what kind of person you are. Of course it all goes away with a good night's sleep and the baby's smiles :-)
This is not even touching the late teen years.
I can see how some people might have a great partner and an easy baby, or just more self-confidence, and it might not be so bad. I'm betting every parent has had some pretty low points, though.
Like fantasizing about smothering the little fucker with a pillow? Yeah, been there. Letting them cry a little (or a lot) too long before getting up? Yeah. Getting so depressed that your spouse is afraid to leave you alone with the kid? Not me, but my wife, yes.
But, those shouldn't make you doubt your worth as a human being. Those things should, frankly, be expected. They're perfectly natural reactions to the situation. Do I feel a twinge of guilt, still? Sure, but I have to be as sympathetic to myself (and others) as I am to the baby.
Anyway, no regrets about having kids - even in a less than ideal situation.
While I agree that parents shouldn't doubt their worth as humans, it's pretty easy to do when one is in the depths of depression or sleep deprivation, or both. Obviously we need to take it easy on ourselves, but it's certainly not hyperbole to feel like that at some point as a parent.
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I think it comes down to WHY you have kids. If you're doing it to enrich YOUR life or to give YOURSELF the full parenting experience--you may want to reconsider. The happiest and most fulfilled parents I know have kids because they want to be a part of THEIR lives.
For example, we are a backpacking family. When our sons were too small to backpack, we went camping and hiking instead with an eye towards building the love of nature and outdoors skills. After 10 years, we're finally at a place where our guys can carry their own gear and their share of family gear for a week-long backpacking trip. It was a huge moment for us as a family. But someone else might just look at this story as a 10-year stretch where you couldn't backpack like you were used to doing. It's all about your outlook.
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If you're doing it to enrich YOUR life or to give YOURSELF the full parenting experience--you may want to reconsider. The happiest and most fulfilled parents I know have kids because they want to be a part of THEIR lives.
^^
Yep. kids help you become an adult. Give instead of just take. Put something into the world instead of always just wanting crap from it. Done properly, kids will turn you into a much much better person. Change your whole perspective on chit.
Obviously I wouldn't have it any other way ;)
yes it is hard work. Hard does not equal bad. Hard is GOOD for you.
If you do it, do it right, OWN it.
Good luck!!
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I am a strong believer in that the questions that we are most seeking an answer for - we already have or know within ourselves.
Hopefully, reading the MMM community members' perspectives continues to give you additional insights into your own thoughts. maybe some responses felt viscerally agreeable and others not? If so, that may give you more clues into what it is you're already thinking.
I have no stats to back me up on this - but I have a hunch that if you're an MMMer, asking these questions, and thinking through this decision, and having these discussions with your wife respectfully and honestly, AND with your demonstrated willingness to ask for help when you need it...it means [insert answer that comes to mind immediately here]
wishing you the best of luck!
Unfortunately I'm not a gut-feeling type of person. I'm more the type that agonizes over decision, and bigger decisions (this is one of the biggest of all), are hard. The answers here are a mix of useful and not so useful, which I fully expected (and is ok). There are a lot of people here seemingly arguing that your entire purpose in life becomes your child; they give the impression that you get the extreme end of this, where you live vicariously through your child, and don't really have anything going on personally beyond the child, and that is either wrong or impossible to have anything fun in your life (aside from the child). I am doubtful of this, but certainly acknowledge that your life changes dramatically. I also don't think people really mean this in most cases, but the information I'm more looking for his how to balance things in life with a child. For example, some people are saying "all your plans to travel and backpack are gone", while meanwhile other people are giving examples of making it happen. Therefore I'm look for more practical, semi-quantitative/applicable information.
I think there are probably different ways to raise a child, multiple of which can be good. There have been and continue to be plenty of people that live exciting lives doing adventurous things for a long time. The question more for me to answer is how much freedom I am willing to give up.
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Good that you are stirring the pot with this- and that at least you are thinking about whether to have a kid or not. I think you knew you wouldn't find an answer here, and this whole chain is somewhere between trolling and naivete. Good luck but I don't think anyone ever decided something huge by asking a message board.
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I am a strong believer in that the questions that we are most seeking an answer for - we already have or know within ourselves.
Hopefully, reading the MMM community members' perspectives continues to give you additional insights into your own thoughts. maybe some responses felt viscerally agreeable and others not? If so, that may give you more clues into what it is you're already thinking.
I have no stats to back me up on this - but I have a hunch that if you're an MMMer, asking these questions, and thinking through this decision, and having these discussions with your wife respectfully and honestly, AND with your demonstrated willingness to ask for help when you need it...it means [insert answer that comes to mind immediately here]
wishing you the best of luck!
Unfortunately I'm not a gut-feeling type of person. I'm more the type that agonizes over decision, and bigger decisions (this is one of the biggest of all), are hard. The answers here are a mix of useful and not so useful, which I fully expected (and is ok). There are a lot of people here seemingly arguing that your entire purpose in life becomes your child; they give the impression that you get the extreme end of this, where you live vicariously through your child, and don't really have anything going on personally beyond the child, and that is either wrong or impossible to have anything fun in your life (aside from the child). I am doubtful of this, but certainly acknowledge that your life changes dramatically. I also don't think people really mean this in most cases, but the information I'm more looking for his how to balance things in life with a child. For example, some people are saying "all your plans to travel and backpack are gone", while meanwhile other people are giving examples of making it happen. Therefore I'm look for more practical, semi-quantitative/applicable information.
I think there are probably different ways to raise a child, multiple of which can be good. There have been and continue to be plenty of people that live exciting lives doing adventurous things for a long time. The question more for me to answer is how much freedom I am willing to give up.
I think what some of us are driving at is somewhat different. The point isn't that you don't get to do your favorite stuff any more. Of course you do! And a lot of times it's more fun, because you're getting to introduce your kids to it, too. But the point is that you don't belong to yourself any more. And to people with a certain sort of modern American upbringing (where the message children absorb is "I am the center of the universe and all things hinge on me!") that's both a shock and a blessed relief.
It's not that you don't count, it's just that you come in decidedly second. Your freedom actually is precisely what you give up, and in a way you give up all of it. When they need you, you're there for them, period. You may get an easy kid, you may get a hard kid; they may sleep through the night, they may not; they may be healthy, they may be sickly. You don't get to know ahead of time, and you don't get to bail if it's not what you expected.
For me, not being the focus of my own life for a couple decades was a liberating and humanizing experience, and I'm really grateful for it.
When my daughter was thinking about having kids, and asked me whether I thought it was a good idea, I said "it's not really something you can make a rational decision about. Is it a good idea to take on a lifetime responsibility of which I know NONE of the details? ... um... I don't know. No one knows. It's not possible to know."
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Well you can't seriously expect anonymous people on the internet to make a decision if you want to have a kid or not. It comes back to what you want. And only you know that. You will never have all the information to make that decision, because you will never know what it's like to have a kid until you do...
Of course each of the people described what the experience was like for them. While some details may be similar, yours will be entirely your own.
Yes, it's possible to travel internationally with kids. Yes, it's possible to have fun while travelling with kids. It's possible to hike and camp with kids, and have fun doing it. We have done all of these. Will it be the same as it was without kids? no! It will be completely different and you will have to be flexible to make it happen.
I have even started to learn a martial art WITH my kid. and it's a blast (newsflash: he is way better than me!)
I think that's what people had been trying to tell you. Doing anything with kids will be different than doing it without kids. Going to a restaurant, going to the movies, going to a concert, even small things like that will be completely different. THey are all possible to do, but will take an entirely new approach.
How much your life revolves around your kid will depend on your personality and how you decide to raise your kids. I don't think everyone was saying you will never have your own interests again, but once you have kids, they are ALWAYS around and need to be considered for any decision you make, including how you spend your time.
I think that's what people were trying to tell you when saying that your life will change. Not necessarily that you won't be able to have any fun. Just that different things will be fun. Things you can't predict now.
And for me, I agree that it has made me a better, more thoughtful human being.
For the record, we never planned on having kids, but it's an experience I am very very glad I had. I agree that it's the hardest thing I, personally have ever done (I am sure there are harder experiences one COULD have, but I have never had to do 20 years hard labor, so hard to compare...), but it's also been extremely rewarding.
One thing I have noticed is that there are people who are really into babies, and ones who are more into kids once they start to communicate. The baby stage was very hard for me. But ever since he started being able to communicate, it has only gotten easier and more fun. To watch how his brain works and discuss stuff with him is amazing. He knows a lot more than me about a lot of things that interest him. He is just kind of an awesome little human, and the fact that we have a lot of similar interests makes it all the better.
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But, seriously now. Little baby toes are SO CUTE!
You have to factor that in too.
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Well you can't seriously expect anonymous people on the internet to make a decision if you want to have a kid or not. .
There seem to be a lot of people here who want to answer that question, the question I didn't ask. Not asking about what the answer is; asking about the information used to make the choice.
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I'm trying to understand how child-raising will impact the things I wanted to do in retirement (FIRE is ~5 years away).
Having one child did not impact our timeline for FIRE, but having two will... and we're expecting again in a few months.
I originally was like many people on this forum: wanting to retire from a conventional job so that I could go on more fulfilling adventures in retirement, travel internationally, pursue all of these things that I find hard to focus on when my life revolves around a conventional corporate job. Does a child compromise all of that?
No. It makes it more expensive, and what you do WHILE you're traveling will be impacted. A child isn't going to have the stamina to go to 3 museums in a day, and would not be welcome at (or awake for) the opening night of an opera in Helsinki.
Certainly our independence is impacted, right?
Not your independence, but say goodbye to spontaneity. My husband and I do all the things we used to, but the other has to cover with the kiddo, so we have to plan and communicate. I think this works well with one, but will probably go away with two, because two-kids-on-one-parent will be too hard to do often.
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Still hilarious. What are you expecting? Most people have kids, and most of those are not going to say, well that was the dumbest thing I did in my life. Same principle as people in fraternities (which I think are uniformly idiotic) not saying how dumb they are.
I think the other thing to think about- you don't need to be a good parent. You can have kids and then just not pay much attention to them and be selfish. Let them deal with the fallout. This might sound tongue in cheek, but tons of parents do that, then wonder why their kids are screwed up. But think too, you're giving the world a gift not having kids, so much less resources they use in terms of carbon, pollution, waste, water, etc.
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Thanks all for the opinions. I think another aspect I would be interested in is the impact of raising kids while retired-early vs not retired. Any thoughts?
Having kids while retired can suck
Having kids while working can suck even more
Though with latter work was a nice escape everyday so 6 of one, half dozen of the other?
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My parenting mantra: Even if you do everything right, everything can end up wrong. You need to make your peace with this before kids. Note this statement does not absolve not trying, but rather acknowledges there is no magic formula for the desired outcome.
For me, I never considered not having kids. But I can respect that not having kids is the right decision for some people. FWIW I only know one person who flip-flopped from a definite NO to children, to having a child. It was the wrong decision. Please address why your wife is having a change of heart.
I would more cautiously consider children if:
- Either of you have surrendered a pet to the Human Society, or put a pet down that wasn't at the Palliative Care stage.
- Either you or your wife had a traumatic childhood.
- Your wife has a history of anxiety or depression.
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I will take a stab at some of your questions directly. My opinion, only, of course. May not work for you.
Unfortunately I'm not a gut-feeling type of person. I'm more the type that agonizes over decision, and bigger decisions (this is one of the biggest of all), are hard. The answers here are a mix of useful and not so useful, which I fully expected (and is ok).
For me the "decision" to have a child was no decision at all. I knew I wanted a child just like I know that this is my right hand, and this is my left hand. Like how I know that I am female, not male. It is not actually a choice for me. But, just like those examples, it is not a super passionate "drive" to have a child or anything, just an utter acceptance that is what I would try to make happen as a #1 life priority.
-- Having kids is the priority for me but I don't make kids my #1 priority day in and day out. I just was not able to. Often work came first (as sole family income for many years), or my health, or need to learn new things. But kids modified all the choices, one way or another, and they squeeze out many options. I did not have time for relationship + work + parenting + personal tie + friends + spiritual time + keeping the house clean. None of us do, and we let some of these things drop.
There are a lot of people here seemingly arguing that your entire purpose in life becomes your child; they give the impression that you get the extreme end of this, where you live vicariously through your child, and don't really have anything going on personally beyond the child, and that is either wrong or impossible to have anything fun in your life (aside from the child). I am doubtful of this, but certainly acknowledge that your life changes dramatically.
Most parents actually DON'T live vicariously through their child. Most parents that start off doing so wise up around age 9 if not sooner. Kids are not "mini me's". It is quite aggravating when they spectacularly fail to have an interest in what you think they should excel at.
My life purpose is not my child, My child is a fact of my life. I have had to make many choices for the benefit of the child/ family. Things like not strangling the 2 year old who won't go to bed. Buying a house with a yard away from my work, working a job I needed to quit but could not because of the bills. Not moving away from the high school district that my kids were going to, because of their friendships. Paying for extra seats when we go on vacation, so we don't go on as fancy or as many vacations. Buying them clothes when money was tight instead of myself.
Because I have a child, I actually did not WANT to spend my only free time (saturdays) on the golf course away from family-- I wanted to take a family road trip instead. I actually want to spend some time each week with my kids, just like I want to spend time with my spouse. It is like having a new awesome life / hobby interest that is more fulfilling and equally thrilling.
I also don't think people really mean this in most cases, but the information I'm more looking for his how to balance things in life with a child. For example, some people are saying "all your plans to travel and backpack are gone", while meanwhile other people are giving examples of making it happen. Therefore I'm look for more practical, semi-quantitative/applicable information.
I am FIRED, and I backpack now, I hated it in my 20's,... and I travelled to europe (with DD) last summer.
Some things sucked. Like skiing with 2 - 6 year olds. One person is left with the kids on bunny slope / child care so the other can ski. But now, with my spouse in poor back health, I have built in ski buddies anytime I want to go.
It is pretty easy to plan things to do with your kids in your free time. But they won't always be the same things as you did when you were single. Some things are more amazing (building a snow fort). We go swim at the beach and play water tag instead of DH and I scuba diving at that same beach. It is because we want to be with them, and also because scuba is so much more pricey, especially if we have to pay a sitter.
I think there are probably different ways to raise a child, multiple of which can be good. There have been and continue to be plenty of people that live exciting lives doing adventurous things for a long time. The question more for me to answer is how much freedom I am willing to give up.
Freedom is certainly given up (or shared) when they are small. No doubt. Can't pee with the door closed, need to keep a special blanket on your person at all times when away from the house, etc. If personal time is important to you, you can plan to hire a nanny for part of the time. Remember that may parents work / away from home for work for 80 hours per week, or travel for work (I certainly did), which is always required away from kids... it is normal for parents to not be there all the time. If you don't work long hours, you don't have to come straight home from work each day if you choose to create personal space (go to gym, meet friend for a drink). Just equal opportunities for spouses... We balanced my long work week with family time on the weekends, for example. But again -- it was because I WANTED to be with my family...
...I wasn't losing freedom to do what I wanted, I simply found 100 more new things that I wanted to do.
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Still hilarious. What are you expecting? Most people have kids, and most of those are not going to say, well that was the dumbest thing I did in my life. Same principle as people in fraternities (which I think are uniformly idiotic) not saying how dumb they are.
I think the other thing to think about- you don't need to be a good parent. You can have kids and then just not pay much attention to them and be selfish. Let them deal with the fallout. This might sound tongue in cheek, but tons of parents do that, then wonder why their kids are screwed up. But think too, you're giving the world a gift not having kids, so much less resources they use in terms of carbon, pollution, waste, water, etc.
I fully expected a mix of answers, and only brought up the nature of people answering the question not asked, when someone suggested I was trying to get an internet forum to give me the answer.
My preference is really for this thread to be about the details of balancing time, priorities, etc... in order to have both children in your life as well as things that typically involve greater independence. Some people have chimed in to say "you give up everything and lose all independence", while others
Doing a shitty job as a parent is not really an option; I wouldn't bother having children in that case. But I speculate it is possible to have an exciting adventurous life even with children, and that while children significantly effect all of your plans, it is possible to do some fun exciting things. Most of the time with the kids, but sometimes not. The goal is really to understand the mechanics of making that all work, and central to a lot of that is being retired early. The fact that people exist who are good parents and work full time is the evidence. If you have those extra 8+ hours a day available, that dramatically changes things. But that said I also want to more concrete understanding the limitations.
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Still hilarious. What are you expecting? Most people have kids, and most of those are not going to say, well that was the dumbest thing I did in my life. Same principle as people in fraternities (which I think are uniformly idiotic) not saying how dumb they are.
I think the other thing to think about- you don't need to be a good parent. You can have kids and then just not pay much attention to them and be selfish. Let them deal with the fallout. This might sound tongue in cheek, but tons of parents do that, then wonder why their kids are screwed up. But think too, you're giving the world a gift not having kids, so much less resources they use in terms of carbon, pollution, waste, water, etc.
I fully expected a mix of answers, and only brought up the nature of people answering the question not asked, when someone suggested I was trying to get an internet forum to give me the answer.
My preference is really for this thread to be about the details of balancing time, priorities, etc... in order to have both children in your life as well as things that typically involve greater independence. Some people have chimed in to say "you give up everything and lose all independence", while others
Doing a shitty job as a parent is not really an option; I wouldn't bother having children in that case. But I speculate it is possible to have an exciting adventurous life even with children, and that while children significantly effect all of your plans, it is possible to do some fun exciting things. Most of the time with the kids, but sometimes not. The goal is really to understand the mechanics of making that all work, and central to a lot of that is being retired early. The fact that people exist who are good parents and work full time is the evidence. If you have those extra 8+ hours a day available, that dramatically changes things. But that said I also want to more concrete understanding the limitations.
I guess what you have to think about if you’re retired with kids is how much time you’ll be around them. Kids are exhausting in keeping up with their energy and constantly worrying that they are going to kill themselves. You can look to MMM himself who has been raising his kid while he semi-retired. There’s no doubt it can be done but you have to have that desire to be involved with kids, to make them your center. You can’t be a, I like to do my own thing person.
To make it work you either do what your kids do—volunteer at school, be a sports parent, scout leader, homeschool, etc; or the kid becomes your mini-me and you make the kid do everything you do. If you’re involved and loving, the kid will be happy. However, it starts with you being happy and in a good place. You need to make sure that after all these years, working on your plan for FI and doing what you want, you’re not going to be resentful that your kids have de-railed things and now it’s all about them and you’ve “missed” your boat. If you start thinking like that, it will make it tough to be a loving parent, retired with your kid 24/7.
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No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
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I've known people who have regretted it bitterly. It's not the kind of thing you say in public: but it happens.
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No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
There are so many abandoned, abused children, ones in foster care and ones on that are homeless that make your statement demonstrably false. Plenty regret it and take it out children, lives are destroyed. Don’t do it half-assed, commit ahead of time to being a great parent or do your own thing and don’t have kids. Children aren’t a vanity project or accessory.
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No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
This is not true.
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No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
There has been at least one poster on this very forum who has specifically said they regretted having kids.
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Still hilarious. What are you expecting? Most people have kids, and most of those are not going to say, well that was the dumbest thing I did in my life. Same principle as people in fraternities (which I think are uniformly idiotic) not saying how dumb they are.
I think the other thing to think about- you don't need to be a good parent. You can have kids and then just not pay much attention to them and be selfish. Let them deal with the fallout. This might sound tongue in cheek, but tons of parents do that, then wonder why their kids are screwed up. But think too, you're giving the world a gift not having kids, so much less resources they use in terms of carbon, pollution, waste, water, etc.
I fully expected a mix of answers, and only brought up the nature of people answering the question not asked, when someone suggested I was trying to get an internet forum to give me the answer.
My preference is really for this thread to be about the details of balancing time, priorities, etc... in order to have both children in your life as well as things that typically involve greater independence. Some people have chimed in to say "you give up everything and lose all independence", while others
Doing a shitty job as a parent is not really an option; I wouldn't bother having children in that case. But I speculate it is possible to have an exciting adventurous life even with children, and that while children significantly effect all of your plans, it is possible to do some fun exciting things. Most of the time with the kids, but sometimes not. The goal is really to understand the mechanics of making that all work, and central to a lot of that is being retired early. The fact that people exist who are good parents and work full time is the evidence. If you have those extra 8+ hours a day available, that dramatically changes things. But that said I also want to more concrete understanding the limitations.
Taking another shot at answering the balancing act with kids.
We have two and we both work full-time. Weekda mornings are mostly everyone getting out the door. Weekday evenings, I take care of both kids while husband spends an hour everyday playing sports, gym, catching up with friends/teammates, etc. Saturdays husband takes care of kids while I get a solid five to six hours of me time. I catch up on work, spend time on my hobbies, catch up with my friends. Saturday evenings and Sundays are mostly for kids and chores.
If you are retired, you can work out similar pockets of time with spouse, nanny, etc to do everything you want to.
Kids are costlier than not having kids. We'll be working three extra years for both our kids. It's a worthwhile exchange for us for a lifetime of fun and new experiences with them.
Also travel with kids is harder than traveling without them. But my kids taught me to look at life with fresh eyes. Even a small experience of rain becomes something fun when experienced with them. So travel with them is more fun for me than traveling without them. Similarly for other experiences.
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No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
I've regretted having my son on occasion, and would be rather surprised if most parents don't sometimes feel this way at some point. Kids are great a lot of the time. . . and they're also occasionally the hardest, most frustrating and difficult problem you'll ever have to deal with.
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I disagree with those who say you shouldn't have a child unless you are 100% sure. While some people are capable of that level of certainty, many (most) will probably never reach 100%. I certainly was not at 100% and decided to go for it. And I think it was a great decision (and that I am confident that I am a good parent).
It makes me sad to think that I almost didn't have children because most of what I had heard about parenting (or, at least, what I had listened to) was about how hard it was. I never heard/attended to people talking about how amazing and joyous it was. It may have been to my benefit to go in to it expecting it to be hard and not fun, because I have found it to be way less hard and more fun than anticipated (not to say that I haven't had rough moments). I have several girlfriends who were not totally sure about the parent think but are really enjoying it (and some who were very sure about it and are having a harder time adjusting). My husband has had much more stress related to the kids, though I have no doubt that he would overall count it as a life-enhancing choice. I think the difference between our experience has been that I am a laid back person that adapts easily, and he stresses easily.
I feel like we are at a cultural moment (at least among higher educated folks) of expecting certain sacrifices that must be made as a parent, many of which are not necessary. While some sacrifice is necessary, it is ok to cut some corners and not be the perfect parent all the time in order to also enjoy your life. For someone who is as thoughtful about this decision as you appear to be, it is unlikely that you will be an abusive or neglectful parent, so just say no to excessive parent guilt.
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We didn't want kids for the first 10 years of marriage, then we wanted to. Now we have three and had several devastating miscarriages between the 1st & 2nd.
I was mopping up throw up last night. Now I'm spending my morning cuddling a puny-feeling kid.
But, I am so excited for the upcoming week off for thanksgiving break, because I'll get to spend more time (older two are in full day school) playing with my kids. We're going to walk our dog, go to the neighborhood park, meet up with friends, explore a local cypress swamp, watch movies and play games. I'll also do my own thing, work on my hobbies - because my kids can entertain themselves.
The absolute best thing for kids is to have parents who love each other and who prioritize keeping their own relationship strong. Gives the kids peace, and sets a good example. So while I love each of my kids, my spouse is always #1 priority.
Our life is peaceful because we don't keep up with Jones family, we don't do a million extra curricular activities, and we set our own priorities. We don't cater to the kids' whims, we have rules but we're loving & kind, but not suckers. We're raising our kids to be down to earth thinkers. So far so good, fingers crossed.
Of course there are still things we could do better, like travel more, but we're working on it. Life is good with kids, absolutely no regrets, but it still would have been good without them too. If you're a happiness from within type person you should be fine either way, whether you decide to have them or not.
That being said, if you don't want to put in the time, don't do it. No sense in having kids just to ship them off to daycare at 6 weeks old, summer camps all summer, sports/activities every night (meaning no family time around the dinner table). It was a financial sacrifice, but work hours were cut so that we could have a less stressful life with kids.
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My preference is really for this thread to be about the details of balancing time, priorities, etc... in order to have both children in your life as well as things that typically involve greater independence.
You might as well ask for details on how to live a child-free life, balancing time, priorities, etc. Because, the answer is: the same way you do those things now, just with a few other things thrown in. There's no magic 'parent living plan'. Smart people are smart parents, stupid people are stupid parents, organized people are organized parents, slobs are slob parents, etc, etc.
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Doing a shitty job as a parent is not really an option; I wouldn't bother having children in that case. But I speculate it is possible to have an exciting adventurous life even with children, and that while children significantly effect all of your plans, it is possible to do some fun exciting things. Most of the time with the kids, but sometimes not. The goal is really to understand the mechanics of making that all work, and central to a lot of that is being retired early. The fact that people exist who are good parents and work full time is the evidence. If you have those extra 8+ hours a day available, that dramatically changes things. But that said I also want to more concrete understanding the limitations.
If you wan't a succinct version of the possibilities, I came across this strip from a cartoon recently:
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-11/7/14/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/sub-buzz-29951-1510084771-3.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
It's from a kids cartoon, so presumably they know their material
I guess what you have to think about if you’re retired with kids is how much time you’ll be around them. Kids are exhausting in keeping up with their energy and constantly worrying that they are going to kill themselves. You can look to MMM himself who has been raising his kid while he semi-retired. There’s no doubt it can be done but you have to have that desire to be involved with kids, to make them your center. You can’t be a, I like to do my own thing person.
There is a lot I can relate to here. The thing people don't tell you (or perhaps should be obvious) is that if you retire with kids at home, you are becoming a stay at home parent. This is fine for some people, and something some people really want. Is it what you want?
It is possible to hire out some of that, daycare is the best thing ever, but that can either be expensive or infeasible depending on the specifics of your early retirement. It might be hard, or just expensive, to find regular child care if you are travelling a lot for example
The latter part is something I very much identify with. I find myself often doing kids activities, or just things with the kids, and it's not that the activities them selves are that bad. They are ok, and more enjoyable than many other things I could be doing, but given the choice there are certainly even better things I'd rather be doing at that time. It's the opportunity cost of that lost time and freedom that I find most stinging. I don't think everyone feels that way.
No matter what your thoughts are leading up to actually have a child, once you do - you will never, ever, EVER regret it.
There has been at least one poster on this very forum who has specifically said they regretted having kids.
There's a whole book (http://amzn.to/2j35gCG) regarding that, from the author: "I really regret it. I really regret having children" (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/mothers-day/i-really-regret-it-i-really-regret-having-children/article1200668/)
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The best reason to have a kid is because you want to have a kid. Not because you want to pass on life lessons, your particular value system, or to have a mini me who loves all the same things you do. Those things are all about YOU, and I promise you a kid will not be all about you. Children are the original selfish creatures, and they are utterly dependent on adults for years and years. And then they become teenagers, when they both need you and push you away, sometimes at the same time.
Parenting can't be ego driven. You really do have to surrender a piece of yourself to the amoeba of family.
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Op, do you have any friends, relatives, etc that have children where you can help out with baby sitting?
Nothing quite like some level of tangible experience to give you a dose of what you might be in for.
Just remember, with your own, you don't get to give them back.
Then again, take my advise with a grain of salt. I actually adore children. I enjoy interacting with them, but at the same time, I absolutely do not want them. I don't like the bad aspects. The crying, the tantrums and literally everything is a fighting match from eating, showering, sleeping, etc.
Baby sitting is also great in helping you develop a "must not strangle" tolerance. Which I think is of utmost importance.
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The motivation is the possibility of a very fulfilling/satisfying experience of getting to know/shape/teach someone, etc... I'm not really one of those persons who sees a baby and gets all giddy. I don't really have a deep yearning to care for infant. It's more about forming a long term bond and getting to teach all the life lessons as I see them, watching someone grow from zero, etc... I don't feel that something is missing in my life, per se... I'm not trying to fill a void with a child. I don't feel left out of conversations with my friends, even though a lot of my good friends have kids. Rather, I'm more trying to fill a void with all of the stuff I want to do when I FIRE. Because of the career path I chose, which involved going to grad school, and now living in a very boring midwestern town, there are lots of things I'd like to go do and places I'd like to see. This is more the motivation not to have kids, though I wonder if there are hybrid scenarios where I can have the best of both worlds.
We are early/mid 30s now, so timing is becoming a factor.
FWIW, I think this is a totally good set of reasons to have kids. As others had said, I'd focus on the "getting to know them" part over the "getting to teach them" part, since the latter is not guaranteed. But you don't have to be a baby person to be happy having kids.
For me, life with kids works because I like my job a lot. I have a 4 year old and a 1 year old, and I don't have time in my life to do much outside of family and work. I do travel, but for work, not just for fun. We see friends, but often in ways that are pretty kid-focused. But I enjoy my job enough that my life feels pretty balanced even with just these two components.
In terms of early retirement, my husband and I decided pretty early on that 1) we wanted kids, and 2) we did NOT want to retire before the youngest is in kindergarten (I don't actually want to retire at all, but he does, and probably will shortly after our son starts school in four years). The life of a stay at home parent is not for either of us. So it does shape that decision a lot.
We used to camp and backpack, and I'm sure we will again, but not right now. We've tried to do basic car camping several times with my older kid, and it's been a disaster each time. I'm sure it depends on the kid, but we probably won't try again for at least another year. Backpacking is, realistically, about a decade away - at least, if we take the kids.
Overall, for us, the kids are a lot of work but also a lot of fun. The first year is rough, just from lack of sleep, but it gets much easier after that. We lived in a small town in western NY for several years, and having a kid was definitely more entertaining than anything else to do there. In your case, I wonder if kids might help you feel more rooted in, and satisfied with, your current living situation - rather than pinning all your hopes on getting out of town a lot. Not trying to talk you into it, as I certainly don't think everyone enjoys parenting or should be a parent, but that was our experience.
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Op, do you have any friends, relatives, etc that have children where you can help out with baby sitting?
Nothing quite like some level of tangible experience to give you a dose of what you might be in for.
Just remember, with your own, you don't get to give them back.
Then again, take my advise with a grain of salt. I actually adore children. I enjoy interacting with them, but at the same time, I absolutely do not want them. I don't like the bad aspects. The crying, the tantrums and literally everything is a fighting match from eating, showering, sleeping, etc.
Baby sitting is also great in helping you develop a "must not strangle" tolerance. Which I think is of utmost importance.
I disagree. I never liked kids too much, strangely decided to have 2. I looooove mine, not a fan of most other people's kids.
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My experience is apparently different from some. My wife and I decided to have a child after much fence sitting. I was more firmly in the no camp, she was more ambivalent. While we did change to the yes side of things before trying to have a kid, neither one of us were 100% sure. I was absolutely concerned that I was too selfish / how would I get my time for X / what about the money / etc. DD is now 2.5 years old, and she is sometimes a pain. And I have absolutely loved the entire experience (and my wife would say the same).
That said, we have colleagues that are similar to us (in terms of age, means, etc.) and they don't all necessarily feel the same way. In my experience, the biggest difference is a willingness to make your life about the kid(s). DW stayed home for 2+ years with DD, which meant less money, but it made things much easier in a lot of other ways. Most of our colleagues won't / can't make that same decision. DW and I already lived a pretty family friendly lifestyle -- we didn't drink, stay out late, etc. We liked hiking, camping, biking, etc. So, despite my fears of being too selfish, it hasn't really felt like a sacrifice. Going to a playground is fun for me, as is just playing on the livingroom rug. I wasn't going out to poker nights, etc., beforehand, so I didn't really give anything up.
At the same time, we absolutely have less time for hobbies. We DIY less than we used to. I play less guitar (but still some). I never really play videogames or watch TV (and don't miss it). To be fair, though, some of that is an increased commitment to my meditation / Buddhist study (not just having a kid). It has gotten harder to exercise, too (aside from playgrounds) but it's still doable.
So, for us, being 100% sure was not a prerequisite. And, truthfully, I don't know how you could be, because you have no idea what having a kid is really going to be like until you do it.
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I'd like to push back some on the notion that once you have a kid you have to put them first 100% of the time. I was on the fence and then read Bringing up Bebe which talks about the French way of parenting. I also saw friends have kids and not lose themselves and their marriages in the process. I don't have children yet due to unexpected fertility issues. But, I would say that the notion of putting your child first 100% of the time is actually very unhealthy for the child. It's better for a child to have well rounded parents that have interests of their own too. My parents didn't have much of a life outside of having kids and I realize I don't have good models of adult friendship because of that. There is nothing wrong with having kids and each taking time to focus on hobbies or having a regular sitter so you can still have date nights. You can also RE and have kids and not be a SAH parent. If you can afford it, there is nothing stopping you from having childcare just like if you were going to work everyday. There are ways of being a responsible involved parent without changing your entire identity to mommy/daddy.
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We used to camp and backpack, and I'm sure we will again, but not right now. We've tried to do basic car camping several times with my older kid, and it's been a disaster each time. I'm sure it depends on the kid, but we probably won't try again for at least another year. Backpacking is, realistically, about a decade away - at least, if we take the kids.
It's possible: http://www.wta.org/news/signpost/backpacking-with-baby-15-days-round-rainier
I think that the only limits are those that we place on oursleves.
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It's possible: http://www.wta.org/news/signpost/backpacking-with-baby-15-days-round-rainier
I think that the only limits are those that we place on oursleves.
Sure, in the most general sense that might be true. By the same token, it's pretty meaningless. My point is that, given the temperament of our actual kids (the plural is important here), the effort that would go into backpacking right now would outweigh our enjoyment of it. I predict that the balance will shift again when they are old enough to carry their own packs.
Also, in our experience, hiking with one 16-pound baby is actually easier than hiking with a 25-pound baby and a four year-old. When we only had one kid and she weighed less than 35 pounds, we used to hike and ski much more regularly than we do now. Others might choose to soldier on, but we've chosen to scale back and focus on other things. Given that backpacking with a baby is the subject of a news story, I think our choice is pretty common, and therefore relevant to the OP.
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I'd like to push back some on the notion that once you have a kid you have to put them first 100% of the time. I was on the fence and then read Bringing up Bebe which talks about the French way of parenting. I also saw friends have kids and not lose themselves and their marriages in the process. I don't have children yet due to unexpected fertility issues. But, I would say that the notion of putting your child first 100% of the time is actually very unhealthy for the child. It's better for a child to have well rounded parents that have interests of their own too. My parents didn't have much of a life outside of having kids and I realize I don't have good models of adult friendship because of that. There is nothing wrong with having kids and each taking time to focus on hobbies or having a regular sitter so you can still have date nights. You can also RE and have kids and not be a SAH parent. If you can afford it, there is nothing stopping you from having childcare just like if you were going to work everyday. There are ways of being a responsible involved parent without changing your entire identity to mommy/daddy.
I think some of this is semantics. Do the disires of the child win out 100% of the time, forcing the parents to do nothing but react to the whims of a toddler? Of course not. But does the existence of a child affect 100% of your decisions (admittedly to varying degrees)? Absolutely. Can you still do the majority of what you did before children? Of course. You will be doing it less frequently and perhaps in a modified manner. As several posters have said, each child will have their own personality / interests and they may or may not align with yours. My two kids are polar opposites. One is happy to sit on his butt all day and play Legos and computer games, the other is in constant motion and loves to play outside. I am like the former, and my wife is like the latter. It's a struggle to find family activities that all 4 of use can agree on / tolerate.
Forcing 3 people, two of which are under the age of 10, to do something that only I find enjoyable is a fool's errand. That automatically means I do those activities less frequently, because I need to A.) carve out a slice of free time to do it B.) have my wife agree that I can go do it while she takes care of the kids C.) hope that the time slot I can carve out aligns with my friends' availabilities so I can go do that thing with someone D.) commit to an equal amount of time for my wife to go do something of hers on her own.
I have seen friends have their marriages fall apart because they couldn't adjust to the disruption that the presence of children had on their lives. Those folks are much happier now because with joint custody they only have to be responsible for supervision half of the time, and the other half of their time they are free to do as they wish. Other friends marriages seem to have gotten stronger with the arrival of children. I would say the primary difference in these two groups is that the latter were much more flexible and willing to make sacrifices in the name of family harmony.
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Neither of us was 100% sure and it's still been a good decision for us. But I also think we would have been okay not having kids, which is not something I hear many people say once they've had kids.
We have two kids - a 2.5 year old and a 7.5 month old. Honestly, our lives have both changed a ton and not changed a ton. We still do things we did before - camping, hiking, international travel - but we have to adjust them to meet kid requirements. We've kept true to our values on some things that other parents might throw in the towel on (namely that we still do not drive our car for commuting or daycare drop off/pick up, we do cloth diapers because of the environmental impact, we don't do screen time) which works for us. We definitely have less time and especially less energy for hobbies and DIY stuff.
In my experience, the hard part of parenting is not any one aspect of parenting, but the fact that you have to do it every day, no matter what is going on, no matter how you feel. Certainly having a solid partner can ease this somewhat, but it can be exhausting and monotonous (oh, we're doing the hokey pokey for the 18th time today!) and I'm not sure I truly appreciated that aspect before becoming a parent.
Ultimately, I get the impression you would be fine either way, and in that case, you just pick something and go with it. It's very normal to doubt your decision, either that you will regret having kids or you will regret not having kids, but it's impossible to know ahead of time.
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I know we've been kind of irritating here by insisting on answering a question that you weren't asking, and I've been mulling over why I was doing that. In my case, I think it was because I felt you were trying to use the wrong part of your mind to decide whether to have kids -- that analysis (beyond "can we afford this?" which was clearly "yes") was only going to muddy the water.
Plus zillions on the suggestion to do some babysitting, or just hanging out with kids.
In the run up to deciding to have kids, when I was in graduate school, we were living in married student housing, around the corner from the low-income projects, and a little seven-year-old girl used to come visit us -- never knew who her parents were. She was a take-charge kind of kid, and she quickly realized, "well, this big dumb white guy doesn't know a thing about how to play with kids, so I'll just have to teach him." Which she proceeded to do.
I think that tipped the scales, for me. It was just a lot of fun. I'd never really spent any time with kids, and I had no idea that I'd actually like it. Or how much they'd bring to to the table. You don't have to make it up: they bring their agendas with them.
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I know we've been kind of irritating here by insisting on answering a question that you weren't asking, and I've been mulling over why I was doing that. In my case, I think it was because I felt you were trying to use the wrong part of your mind to decide whether to have kids -- that analysis (beyond "can we afford this?" which was clearly "yes") was only going to muddy the water.
Plus zillions on the suggestion to do some babysitting, or just hanging out with kids.
In the run up to deciding to have kids, when I was in graduate school, we were living in married student housing, around the corner from the low-income projects, and a little seven-year-old girl used to come visit us -- never knew who her parents were. She was a take-charge kind of kid, and she quickly realized, "well, this big dumb white guy doesn't know a thing about how to play with kids, so I'll just have to teach him." Which she proceeded to do.
I think that tipped the scales, for me. It was just a lot of fun. I'd never really spent any time with kids, and I had no idea that I'd actually like it. Or how much they'd bring to to the table. You don't have to make it up: they bring their agendas with them.
This is a response to everyone, but also to this response as well. I have read all of the responses here. Just haven't responded as much as I would like due to the time consuming nature of responding to this particular topic.
Thanks to everyone for the lengthy dialog, I do appreciate it. This thread has helped me to start to more thoroughly reconsider having children, and go through that thought process.
I keep on typing out responses, and then deleting them. This topic is too complicated, and I need more time for consolidating my thoughts, which will take months I think. There are a very healthy mix of responses. I think reading the whole of them, and then reconsidering where I fit in, is the best way to handle this 'data'.
Specifically in regards to spending time with children as a form of a prelude: I am not really a baby-person. I don't think I'd enjoy caring for someone else's baby. I think i'd do ok at taking care of my own. I don't think it's as straight forward an indicator as you/others think. I think I would be totally different with my own child. Some people are baby people, and get all oogly googly about babies. I'm totally not that way. But I'm almost 100% confident that this has little to no impact on how I'd do as a father. Hopefully that response does not come across as asshole-ish, which is not my intent.
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Im curious whether those who do feel some degree of regret, saw it coming or not. Were there any clues?
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Specifically in regards to spending time with children as a form of a prelude: I am not really a baby-person. I don't think I'd enjoy caring for someone else's baby. I think i'd do ok at taking care of my own. I don't think it's as straight forward an indicator as you/others think. I think I would be totally different with my own child. Some people are baby people, and get all oogly googly about babies. I'm totally not that way. But I'm almost 100% confident that this has little to no impact on how I'd do as a father. Hopefully that response does not come across as asshole-ish, which is not my intent.
Luckily for you children will not be babies for that long. I also think that for your own child, you will feel very responsible and therefore are willing to do a good job, despite not being a baby person in general.
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Im curious whether those who do feel some degree of regret, saw it coming or not. Were there any clues?
Did people post about having regrets? I don't remember seeing those.
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Specifically in regards to spending time with children as a form of a prelude: I am not really a baby-person. I don't think I'd enjoy caring for someone else's baby. I think i'd do ok at taking care of my own. I don't think it's as straight forward an indicator as you/others think. I think I would be totally different with my own child. Some people are baby people, and get all oogly googly about babies. I'm totally not that way. But I'm almost 100% confident that this has little to no impact on how I'd do as a father. Hopefully that response does not come across as asshole-ish, which is not my intent.
You are 100% correct. It is totally different when it is your own child.
I am not a baby person either. Never have been and never will be. I don't enjoy playing with or holding other people's babies, even after having 2 of my own.
However, when my 2 kids were babies, I loved, adored, cared for, played with, cared for and cherished (almost) every moment.
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Couple things...maybe a few
1: we need more intelligent breeding in this world
2: you can’t understand how kids change your life until it’s happened
3: my kids are 3 and younger and have been to plenty of countries and ride in all types of planes, boats, and trains, but some days getting to the grocery store and back is a nightmare.
That’s life, wouldn’t change a thing.
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This is a great thread filled with mostly great advice. I was 35, in a stable relationship, financially stable, etc. and I was FLOORED by what it took out of my life to have a baby.
I actually think it may be harder when you're older. You're more set in your ways, have a plan for your life, and the loss of your Saturday morning paper-and-a-coffee habit can feel devastating. I suspect anyone saying it was no big deal was quite young when they had kids and it was quite a long time ago (you definitely forget the worst parts).
After I had a kid, I tell anyone having a kid that it's amazing, like climbing a mountain, hard but rewarding. But you have to be SURE. Unlike climbing a mountain, you can't bail partway through and hike back down.
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This is a great thread filled with mostly great advice. I was 35, in a stable relationship, financially stable, etc. and I was FLOORED by what it took out of my life to have a baby.
I actually think it may be harder when you're older. You're more set in your ways, have a plan for your life, and the loss of your Saturday morning paper-and-a-coffee habit can feel devastating. I suspect anyone saying it was no big deal was quite young when they had kids and it was quite a long time ago (you definitely forget the worst parts).
I was the same age, and in the exact same position as you, when I had my first kid.
None of the changes I've experienced from having kids has felt "devastating."
This strikes me as extremely trivial and dramatic.
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This is a great thread filled with mostly great advice. I was 35, in a stable relationship, financially stable, etc. and I was FLOORED by what it took out of my life to have a baby.
I actually think it may be harder when you're older. You're more set in your ways, have a plan for your life, and the loss of your Saturday morning paper-and-a-coffee habit can feel devastating. I suspect anyone saying it was no big deal was quite young when they had kids and it was quite a long time ago (you definitely forget the worst parts).
I was the same age, and in the exact same position as you, when I had my first kid.
None of the changes I've experienced from having kids has felt "devastating."
This strikes me as extremely trivial and dramatic.
Exactly. The drama in this thread has gotten a bit over the top sometimes.
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One of the main reasons I didn't want children was not just that it was a huge responsibility, but that I take such responsibilities SO seriously and am SO self critical about how well I do in meeting my responsibilities, that I would be a wreck (and likely overly critical of my DW, and also of my children). Friends have often suggested that we would be great parents because we are such responsible people, but even the thought of it just freaks me out, makes me anxious, and I want to run away screaming. I find keeping my own shit together is more than enough of a challenge and responsibility for a lifetime.
And so while most people do it, and many do it with great joy and ease, and simply deal with the exhaustion that can be a part of it, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for me. And yes, I am being selfish in a way, thinking about my psychological well being and my quality of life...but not so much in terms of...will I still have enough time to pursue my hobbies and maintain my social life?...or will I have enough money to retire by X age...but rather, how will I respond to the situation and will that be a good thing for me and for everyone else involved?
My answer is certainly conditioned by my own psychology and my life experience (just like everyone else), and I have directly experienced the fact that you can "do everything right" as a parent and have prolonged, heart-wrenching anguish at the results. So while there are plenty of responses to my points that others can make, justifying going either way, those will always be their responses to a question we can only answer for ourselves
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This is a great thread filled with mostly great advice. I was 35, in a stable relationship, financially stable, etc. and I was FLOORED by what it took out of my life to have a baby.
I actually think it may be harder when you're older. You're more set in your ways, have a plan for your life, and the loss of your Saturday morning paper-and-a-coffee habit can feel devastating. I suspect anyone saying it was no big deal was quite young when they had kids and it was quite a long time ago (you definitely forget the worst parts).
I was the same age, and in the exact same position as you, when I had my first kid.
None of the changes I've experienced from having kids has felt "devastating."
This strikes me as extremely trivial and dramatic.
Exactly. The drama in this thread has gotten a bit over the top sometimes.
A lot of responses on this thread lean towards that idea of you should just know whether or not you want to have kids, and if there is uncertainty in your mind than it probably means you aren't the right person to have kids. I disagree, but am also trying to be open-minded to the possibility that there might be some truth to it.
No one doubts that raising a child is hard, and that it may or may not work out so you have to be prepared for anything. But I wonder if some responders are (purposely or not) trying to justify their own choices, or make child-rearing appear harder (requiring more sacrifice) than it is in order to make themselves feel tougher. It is human nature to think "I had it so hard"; it makes you feel good about yourself, accomplished. On the other hand, this information can give some gauge on how much freedom I'd be losing.
Having children is a bizarre dichotomy of selfishness. It is a supremely selfish choice; you bring unnecessary burden to the planet/etc, and all in the interest of giving yourself the experience of having a child (and all that that entails). But at the same time, it involves subsequently prioritizing the child to a high degree, which is quite selfless.
I bring up selfishness, as it has been at the core of this thread. Some people have pointed out that wanting to having children, in order to teach them lessons and pass on things, is selfish because i'm doing it for myself. And it might not work out (they may not share my interests; or they might be screw ups; etc..). But really, why have children then? If I just wanted to interact with babies/toddlers/young people, then I could volunteer/etc... I think experiencing the raising and shaping of a child is maybe the most sensible reason to have a child.
If you don't want to gain something for yourself, no one would have children. I think the reasons I listed previously for having children are totally legit, and yes I get that they might not work out. But I would raise my child in such a way to optimize my chances.
As humans, we have the ability to learn from past experiences, other's experiences, and use the application of logic to choose an optimal path. The hypothesis here is that optimization of life will allow a parent to somewhat minimize the sacrifices of parenthood. A core component to the equation is early retirement, as well as learning to live time efficiently (for example, paying a maid to clean, or getting robotic cleaners). Additional ideas are that conventional (MMM forum as well) ideas on the best ways to raise a child may be inefficient and unnecessary; I think it is legitimate to question how much a child needs to be made the center of the universe (and may result in some not so nice traits in the child). No doubt, a large sacrifice must occur, but the personal question I am deliberating on is whether I can save enough time/energy/etc... to have enough freedom to remain satisfied while having a child. This is where various data from different MMM forum posters can be quite useful (especially those raising a child while retired). Anyways, these are thoughts i am considering.
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Having children is a bizarre dichotomy of selfishness. It is a supremely selfish choice; you bring unnecessary burden to the planet/etc, and all in the interest of giving yourself the experience of having a child (and all that that entails). But at the same time, it involves subsequently prioritizing the child to a high degree, which is quite selfless.
I bring up selfishness, as it has been at the core of this thread. Some people have pointed out that wanting to having children, in order to teach them lessons and pass on things, is selfish because i'm doing it for myself. And it might not work out (they may not share my interests; or they might be screw ups; etc..). But really, why have children then? If I just wanted to interact with babies/toddlers/young people, then I could volunteer/etc... I think experiencing the raising and shaping of a child is maybe the most sensible reason to have a child.
I think you have about as good a grasp as one can on this (blowing up a lot of the overly simplistic cliches that often get bandied about)...
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This is a great thread filled with mostly great advice. I was 35, in a stable relationship, financially stable, etc. and I was FLOORED by what it took out of my life to have a baby.
I actually think it may be harder when you're older. You're more set in your ways, have a plan for your life, and the loss of your Saturday morning paper-and-a-coffee habit can feel devastating. I suspect anyone saying it was no big deal was quite young when they had kids and it was quite a long time ago (you definitely forget the worst parts).
I was the same age, and in the exact same position as you, when I had my first kid.
None of the changes I've experienced from having kids has felt "devastating."
This strikes me as extremely trivial and dramatic.
We are talking about creating and caring for a human being here. I don't believe any of this is too dramatic. For the first year after my son was born, most of the time I was certain I'd made a terrible mistake. My marriage nearly didn't make it. I am positive I am not the first person to feel this way. Perhaps my coffee example was trivial but those feelings certainly were not. Maybe some people adjust just fine at any age or situation, and maybe some of us don't. I guess the entire takeaway is to know yourself.
My son is only 1.5 yrs now, so I'm still very close to that terrible first year. I am also a SAHM, so I think it gets amplified when you're suddenly home, cut off from the world, unable to shower, and since the original poster did not ask about any of that side of it, I won't go on any more. We appear to be out of the woods and I don't regret it.
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Did people post about having regrets? I don't remember seeing those.
I can't speak from personal experience as I don't have kids, but I have had one close friend confide they wish they had never had kids, and that they wish they could go back and make a different decision. I've know many couples whose marriages broke up after having children (correlation, not causation). Saddest of all, the mother of my childhood neighbors killed her youngest son and injured her other son. She obviously had mental health issues (and was found not guilty by reason of insanity) but in interviews she described being overwhelmed by caring for her children. This is an extreme outlier, but given that you are making a decision which affects multiple lives, I don't think the situation can be taken too seriously.
As humans, we have the ability to learn from past experiences, other's experiences, and use the application of logic to choose an optimal path.
Exactly. And that's why I don't have kids. I looked around at the lives of my friends with kids and knew that wasn't the life I wanted. Luckily, I could determine that through observation, not just through my own experience.
That's not to say *you* shouldn't have kids. It might be the exact right choice for you. Just don't over weigh the testimonials of those with kids telling you to have kids--realize they are a self selected group who wanted kids and who have had a overall positive experience.
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I would spend time trying to figure out why your wife has had a change of heart and now wants a child.
Might just be age. Happened to a lot of women I know between the ages of 35-40.
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I’d ask yourself: what’s motivating you to have kids? Do you or your wife feel like something is missing? Do you feel you’re not adult enough? Do you feel left out of the conversations with friends?
Kids are a commitment and too many people have kids who frankly shouldn’t and that comes out at some point. Yes, lots of people make do, it’s not easy. It’s ok to not want them. If you do, your current plans will change, they have to. That doesn’t mean it will get worse, just not the same.
My only strong recommendation is for you and your wife to go get tested, make sure everything is working, and freeze some eggs and sperm. That way, if you decide to FIRE and then change your mind and want kids, you’ll have more options if you’re a bit older—age matters for conceiving, not parenting.
The motivation is the possibility of a very fulfilling/satisfying experience of getting to know/shape/teach someone, etc... I'm not really one of those persons who sees a baby and gets all giddy. I don't really have a deep yearning to care for infant. It's more about forming a long term bond and getting to teach all the life lessons as I see them, watching someone grow from zero, etc... I don't feel that something is missing in my life, per se... I'm not trying to fill a void with a child. I don't feel left out of conversations with my friends, even though a lot of my good friends have kids. Rather, I'm more trying to fill a void with all of the stuff I want to do when I FIRE. Because of the career path I chose, which involved going to grad school, and now living in a very boring midwestern town, there are lots of things I'd like to go do and places I'd like to see. This is more the motivation not to have kids, though I wonder if there are hybrid scenarios where I can have the best of both worlds.
We are early/mid 30s now, so timing is becoming a factor.
There are so many other ways to pass on your teaching and wisdom without having kids. Volunteer for an organization like Big Brother/Sister, foster kids, coach a sport. You could travel to places and work with disadvantaged kids. You can definitely have the best of both worlds without having a child. The one thing you don’t want is to have a child and then feel resentful.
+1. Do that first.
Also if the biological clock is an issue I +1 the suggestion to look into ivf to postpone kids until FIRE. Note though freezing eggs is still very risky, unfortunately currently it is still safer to freeze embryos (which comes with its own ethical challenges especially if you are on the fence).
My personal experience: struggled with infertility since my teens (following illness) so expected to remain childless. Respite fostered to scratch the itch and got over it. Met a guy who wanted kids. Agreed to try ivf. Love having children but it has completely changed my life and I'm so glad I *lived* (travelled / moved to the beach / learned new skills) beforehand and now don't have to balance a corporate job with parenthood.
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I think selfishness/selflessness is at the core as well. In this privileged air as well, where there is a lot of control over fertility, (IVF, adoption, abortion, birth control) you are deciding in having a kid that you in particular want a bigger share of the planet for your spawn. In contrast, by not having a kid, you are shortening your lease on the world by not extending your claims by a generation, but likely will use a larger share during your own lifetime (hence wanting to do more, make more, have less responsibility). Another way to think about it is you could also buy another's time to care for your child, to give you more time. If this agrees with your model of childcare, you can through a nanny, subsidized relative, etc. exert more control over your own schedule.
One datapoint I heard about is a friend's husband who is an artist. He was very concerned about giving up time to have to deal with a kid when his wife got pregnant. I saw him at a party about a year later and he said he was over it and liked being a dad. This was another person supremely concerned with the selfishness/selfless dichotomy. I suspect he had a lot of his anxiety over being a parent manifest as his building desire to devote even more time to work.
I think there are some broad philosophies one can probe on a message board, and then there's your own question and situation, best addressed by a good psychotherapist through some concentrated work. Get an MD or at least a PhD. They'll be a lot cheaper than a bad decision here.
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Having a child changes your life in a similar way to getting married. You go to the store, hand in your old life, and get a completely new life in return. Your new life will have both wonders to behold and struggles to overcome. You will hardly see some of your old friends. You will become closer to some new ones. It is not necessarily better or worse.
If you decide you want kids, have them by age 35 if you can. The early stages of parenting are physically tiring. After a few years, it becomes more of a mental, psychological exercise. I waited until almost age 40, and those early years are a blur.
Small nitpick, but having a child is NOTHING like getting married. For many people, the day before you're married and the day afterwards can be literally the exact same. Having a baby is a life frameshift.
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Spouse and I waited until 33 & 34 to have a kid (we were 32 & 34 when we got pregnant). We began our marriage under the presumption that we wouldn't have children, by choice. Once I hit 30, I began really wanting a child, just because I felt like something was missing from my life. Spouse and I decided that the time was right to try for a kid. We did consider how we'd handle a child with severe medical or cognitive needs. Decided to go ahead and try anyway, understanding that "we got what we got," and there's no use planning on things going according to plan. 5 years after that choice, we have an almost 3 year old son with autism. He's a wonderful child and I wouldn't change a thing about him.
The hardest things about parenting at our house are the lack of free time, given that spouse and I both need a lot of "me" time. Son is a handful of energy and needs constant attention and stimulation.
We haven't had a lot of time for each other, and we've argued over who does more childcare, house chores, etc. Sometimes, we both think that we're failing as parents, especially when it seems that everyone else has this parenting thing down, and we're still struggling to get our kid to hold a spoon. However, it has deepened my love for my spouse, as he had been an incredibly affectionate and involved father, more than I ever thought he would be.
Parenting is hard. Especially if your kid has special needs. It'll make you question your sense of who you are. It'll be the highest of highs (the first time your kid smiles at you) and the lowest of lows (wondering how the hell everyone else is doing parenting so much better than you & realizing that you don't know how to do it any better than what you are).
If you and your wife feel like your life will be incomplete without a child, I'd say that's an important question to ask yourselves. How would you handle having a special needs child, both individually and as a couple? How committed are you to handling really long term, really hard tasks together?
Those things don't cost money, they cost time, as well as mental and emotional fortitude. Those are, in my mind, the most important costs to weigh.
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After reading through most of the replies, I think there is one area that was totally overlooked. Allow me to chime in with a few more questions that might be helpful in your "evaluation" of whether or not having children is the right path for you and your partner.
If you aren't a baby person, how will that affect the family balance in the first few years of your hypothetical baby? Is there a chance a lot of the hands-on care of the baby, from feeding to bathing, to soothing, to carrying etc. may land on your partner, and create a strain on your relationship? Picture the sleep deprived mom recovering from childbirth (the recovery for me was a LOT more difficult than the actual birth!), bonding with the baby but feeling exhausted, tapped out, drained and very hormonal... There is an outside chance that your relationship can suffer if one of you starts to feel resentment for "carrying the entire load".
We all learn from our mistakes, I may have married a wonderful man who just turned out to be a very hands off father and that really changed a lot of things for our couple and our definition of what a family looks like. When your spouse takes zero vacation, travels a lot for work during the week, and wants to sleep in on the weekend,... it takes a lot of open communication from both partners to overcome those bitter feelings.
Having family nearby would be a huge plus. I didn't have that chance, but I've also heard stories where parents (that is, the grandparents of the hypothetical baby) totally overwhelm the new family and throw it off balance. Their intentions are good, but in the end they can add stress by wanting to be involved beyond your comfort level.
So I'd ask myself: do we want the same thing from a family? Are we on the same page when it comes to the responsibilities associated with raising a child? Does "not being a baby person" mean that I'm off the hook for the first three years of my child's life? How will that child affect the greater family dynamic - your family and your partner's?
Other than that, despite being a divorced single mom, I am in the no-regret, most-fulfilling life experience camp; and definitely NOT putting the child first in everything you do. Perhaps that's the French in me talking ;) Your hypothetical child will thank you later.
Best wishes!
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After reading through most of the replies, I think there is one area that was totally overlooked. Allow me to chime in with a few more questions that might be helpful in your "evaluation" of whether or not having children is the right path for you and your partner.
If you aren't a baby person, how will that affect the family balance in the first few years of your hypothetical baby? Is there a chance a lot of the hands-on care of the baby, from feeding to bathing, to soothing, to carrying etc. may land on your partner, and create a strain on your relationship? Picture the sleep deprived mom recovering from childbirth (the recovery for me was a LOT more difficult than the actual birth!), bonding with the baby but feeling exhausted, tapped out, drained and very hormonal... There is an outside chance that your relationship can suffer if one of you starts to feel resentment for "carrying the entire load".
We all learn from our mistakes, I may have married a wonderful man who just turned out to be a very hands off father and that really changed a lot of things for our couple and our definition of what a family looks like. When your spouse takes zero vacation, travels a lot for work during the week, and wants to sleep in on the weekend,... it takes a lot of open communication from both partners to overcome those bitter feelings.
Having family nearby would be a huge plus. I didn't have that chance, but I've also heard stories where parents (that is, the grandparents of the hypothetical baby) totally overwhelm the new family and throw it off balance. Their intentions are good, but in the end they can add stress by wanting to be involved beyond your comfort level.
So I'd ask myself: do we want the same thing from a family? Are we on the same page when it comes to the responsibilities associated with raising a child? Does "not being a baby person" mean that I'm off the hook for the first three years of my child's life? How will that child affect the greater family dynamic - your family and your partner's?
Other than that, despite being a divorced single mom, I am in the no-regret, most-fulfilling life experience camp; and definitely NOT putting the child first in everything you do. Perhaps that's the French in me talking ;) Your hypothetical child will thank you later.
Best wishes
In regards to being a baby person, i think im just not a baby person for babies in general but i think this will not impact my own child rearing. Im pretty confident i would do my best split the tasks with my wife. I also think despite not being a baby person (neither is my wife) we would totally adore our child.
In regards to the spouse issues, it sounds like your ex-husband was a POS if he wouldnt help out at all or even take vacation for the family. Me are most certainly not in any sort of situation like that.
In regards to not putting the baby f8rst in every decision, i agree. This is where i have disagreed with most of the people on this thread. A child will come first on critical issues, but i am a firm believer in the importance of having things in my life that are independent of the family. A key part of this is ability to FIRE. Given that people who work 40+ hour jobs are still able to be good parents, i think the notion that having a child is a total loss of freedom is bogus. That said, it is definitely way different than having no children.
Something i ponder about is the affect of the mentioned parenting style (given complete and near singular focus on the child, or even approximating that) on how the child develops. One might hypothesize its not entirely positive.
Im not necessarily advociating one extreme versus the other. Rather, im proposing that for some people, there are optimal paths that deviate from what society views as acceptible.
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Something i ponder about is the affect of the mentioned parenting style (given complete and near singular focus on the child, or even approximating that) on how the child develops. One might hypothesize its not entirely positive.
You aren't going to like this Case, but the best remedy might be to have SEVERAL kids then - chances are they would all learn to be more resilient and not expect you give them all your undivided attention ;)
OK just kidding, I've got just one kid (8) and so far he isn't a brat.
On another subject, I think it will help that he won't be getting a cell phone until he can pay for it and its monthly bill :) But many children don't even know there is a monthly fee beside the device they've grown so fond of. I am teaching him all that, and more. Hopefully soon he'll understand better why frugality is so important. For now he thinks I am cheap!!
As for the ex? I suppose I was as much as fault as he for not expressing clearly & early enough my expectations. Before marrying him would have been smart. Dang it. We learn, and we move on. I am lucky enough that we co-parent fairly well and at that point that is all I need from him.
Take care.
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How demanding a job it is depends on your involvement as a father. If you choose to be involved, it's tough. If you choose to be the "shut up son, I'm reading the paper" dad, it's not. But then you'll discover why most divorces are initiated by women.
Just my opinion, but I do you really want kids? You sound like you are more concerned how it will affect your life. My opinion doesn't mean jack since I have none, but I always assumed that the life you're used to comes a close second to the well being of the child?
Yes and no. Kids do come first because... well, they demand it. But you put yourself, first, too - because otherwise you can't help the your kids. It's like how in an aircraft if you're with a kid and the oxygen masks drop, you put yours on first - because you can't help your kid if you pass out. Same in all first aid situations.
So you have to take care of your needs to a degree, simply to be able to be a functioning and useful parent. A classic example is the screaming baby. You've changed them, fed them, sung and rocked them for half an hour - and they're still screaming. It's like fingernails on a blackboard. You're going nuts, you have a brief thought of shaking the child in frustration, or even smothering the child to shut it up.
That's the time to put the child down in their cot and go outside in the fresh air for ten minutes. As my paramedic friends say of patients, "If they're still screaming, they're still alive, they can wait." Your sanity or losing it in those ten minutes is a danger to the child, whereas being alone for ten minutes in their cot is not. So you put them down and go outside for a bit to swear or cry and breathe deeply and calm down.
From this it extends further. Sometimes you just want to be able to have a crap alone without a small someone wandering in to say hello. You need to get out of the house and have a conversation with someone which is not about babies or the consistency of their poo. And so on.
It's not really that the work is hard, more that it's relentless. There's no scheduled coffee or meal breaks, you're available 24 hours a day.
What you quickly discover is that there's a reason that God or evolution or whatever made two parents. It's too much for one. There are times when you need to step in for your spouse, "I'll take care of this, you go and have a cup of coffee or a lie down, I'll come wake you at dinner time." And they'll need to step in for you.
A lot of this can be planned. You change your work so that you're doing four long days instead of five shorter ones, this gives you a Friday alone with the kids so your spouse can go out all day alone. Or you commit to coming home from work by 4pm on Wednesdays so the spouse can go out to volleyball.
Having children will absolutely impact you and your life. You are not going to have ten hobbies and wake naturally every morning after a solid eight hours' sleep. If you organise yourselves well, you will have one hobby and wake naturally every second morning after a disturbed sleep where you just rolled over and went back to sleep - the other mornings are where you're the one who got up in the night and early. That is, you take turns. But again, this has to be planned.
As a personal example, each weekday my wife gets up with the kids 6-630, and I stay in bed until a bit after she leaves the house. I then get up and sort the kids out for the morning with breakfast and the older one's schoolbag, we take him to school at 830. Then it's back for the day with the younger one, a toddler. I do housework tasks spread through the day - but not ad hoc, planned. Monday, Wednesday and Friday I vacuum and clean all benches and surfaces, Tuesdays I do fruit and vege shopping and Thursdays supermarket shopping, and I have stock lists to tick off, stock lists which relate to the menus, since every Monday we have chilli, Tuesday we have soup, and so on.
Tuesdays and Thursdays people come to my garage gym from 4pm, so my wife finishes work early and picks the older kid up from school and is home by then. She'll then heat up the dinner I made earlier in the day so we can eat at 6. This means she's later home on Mondays and Fridays, making up the hours she was short Tue/Thu. Wednesday night I go out to the city to play games with friends. Friday night is shabbat dinner, we often have people visit us then, if not then it's a night home together for my wife and me, we'll play a game, watch a movie, or listen to an old radio play.
And so on and so forth. Being a parent is nothing mystical and magical. It's a job. You do your job better if you organise it well. This doesn't mean being the "tiger mum" and driving your kid around to six different activities a day. It does mean planning and scheduling to a degree, and spreading the workload around through the week and between the couple reasonably.
Because if you don't plan, then one person - usually the woman - ends up doing everything, and doing it ad hoc. And things are chaotic and there's screaming and crying and not just from the kids. If you make your spouse feel like a single parent, there's every danger they'll decide to make it official.
It's a job, and properly-done it's a job like any other - it'll be mostly tedious, sometimes frustrating, and have moments of joy. Because it's a job involving your own children, the frustrations and the joys will be greater than those of any paid job.
People make a big deal of being a parent and toss a lot of emotional baggage at you about it, especially at women. As a man you get to miss out on all that bullshit about breastfeeding vs not, childcare vs not, whether to ever give your kid lollies, how to encourage them to walk - believe me, this trivial shit is the subject of arguments more bitter and vicious in mother's groups than the Israeli-Palestinian dispute has ever had - but you will get it second hand.
Having children is neither selfish nor unselfish, any more than working as a coder vs working as a teacher is selfish or unselfish. Everyone's work contributes to society generally, and gives them benefits, too. Everyone likes to think their job is the most important job in the world, but at the same time they have days where they resent someone or something about the job and its demands on them. Toss aside all that self-indulgent nonsense: it's just a job. But you should try to do your job well. Have some professional pride.
In the end, it's just a job, a job which you can do well or do badly, a job which is mostly tedious, it just happens to be the job with the greatest joys and greatest frustrations of your life.
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In regards to being a baby person, i think im just not a baby person for babies in general but i think this will not impact my own child rearing. Im pretty confident i would do my best split the tasks with my wife. I also think despite not being a baby person (neither is my wife) we would totally adore our child.
In regards to not putting the baby f8rst in every decision, i agree. This is where i have disagreed with most of the people on this thread. A child will come first on critical issues, but i am a firm believer in the importance of having things in my life that are independent of the family. A key part of this is ability to FIRE. Given that people who work 40+ hour jobs are still able to be good parents, i think the notion that having a child is a total loss of freedom is bogus. That said, it is definitely way different than having no children.
Something i ponder about is the affect of the mentioned parenting style (given complete and near singular focus on the child, or even approximating that) on how the child develops. One might hypothesize its not entirely positive.
Im not necessarily advociating one extreme versus the other. Rather, im proposing that for some people, there are optimal paths that deviate from what society views as acceptible.
We are not baby people either. My spouse and I used to kid that neither of us are very maternal, but more logical and not very emotional. That being said, I don’t think you have to be as long as you are able and willing to do what it takes. I hated newborn stage, but of course did everything had to do, I didn’t enjoy it much more the second time around either, but again, I look back and there were some really nice moments.
As for having the baby needs in the FIRST point of every decision, is not the same as the SINGULAR focus of the decision. As a parent, you do need to consider the babies need first, but thaynot the onl6 factor. The freedom is lost in the sense that you can’t do what ever you want. It doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything. Wit( a child it mean that there is another human and considerations that need to in account where as before there wasn’t. This applies not only to the critical things butalmost all decisions.
A small one, some people want to go for a drink after work, before you might call your spouse and tell them you are going to be late and go. With child, you now may have to think about is your wife who has been home all day going to want a break, will you be able to make it hom in time to see the child before he goes to sleep, if the child is in daycare, who is picking him up. You still may go but there has to be more thought to the decision.
You want to run to the store to pick up something, before you could be at the store and back in 30 minutes. With a baby, it’s almost nap time, you don’t want to disturb the nap if you are blessed with a sleeper, so you wait, then when the baby wakes up, you got to change him, and feed him and then get him dressed. NOW, 3 hours later you can go to the store.
When I refer to the freedom being lost, i mean things that I used to do, I have to make sure that I have adequately planned for to ensure my kids are taken care of first. If you want o do something’s, you have to make sure you have accounted for the care of your child first. That’s all.
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It's an impossible question to answer for someone else, but I just wanted to chime in to share that for me and my husband, having a child (and another on the way) has been the most awe-inspiring, joy-inducing, heart-expanding thing ever. Yes, it's also all those other things people have pointed out - exhausting, demanding, life-changing. It's just really hard to put into words the depth of feeling and experience that accompanies having and raising kids. That said, this thread is definitely proof that not everyone who has kids shares my positive view of all this. And I'm not sure you can ever know in advance on which side you'll fall.
One of my best friends and her husband are child-free by choice (hers -- he wanted kids initially, but got on board with her thinking to stay with her). For awhile, I was baffled by my friend's strong conviction that she didn't want kids - I think bc she's the most adventurous person I know, and to me parenthood is like the grandest and craziest adventure you could imagine, so it seemed odd to me that she wouldn't want to do it. But after more thinking and talking to her about it, I completely respect her view and choice. She has other adventures she wants to pursue in life (including a really strong commitment to her line of work, which is in the public interest), and honestly just does not want to be tied down to the massive responsibility that comes with raising a tiny human. (Not that you necessarily need a reason to not have kids - not wanting them is perfectly good enough!)
I would spend time with your friends who have kids, and would also do a lot of talking with your wife about your hopes/dreams/expectations/fears. Include best and worst case scenarios too. Good luck.
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Spouse and I waited until 33 & 34 to have a kid (we were 32 & 34 when we got pregnant). We began our marriage under the presumption that we wouldn't have children, by choice. Once I hit 30, I began really wanting a child, just because I felt like something was missing from my life. Spouse and I decided that the time was right to try for a kid. We did consider how we'd handle a child with severe medical or cognitive needs. Decided to go ahead and try anyway, understanding that "we got what we got," and there's no use planning on things going according to plan. 5 years after that choice, we have an almost 3 year old son with autism. He's a wonderful child and I wouldn't change a thing about him.
The hardest things about parenting at our house are the lack of free time, given that spouse and I both need a lot of "me" time. Son is a handful of energy and needs constant attention and stimulation.
We haven't had a lot of time for each other, and we've argued over who does more childcare, house chores, etc. Sometimes, we both think that we're failing as parents, especially when it seems that everyone else has this parenting thing down, and we're still struggling to get our kid to hold a spoon. However, it has deepened my love for my spouse, as he had been an incredibly affectionate and involved father, more than I ever thought he would be.
Parenting is hard. Especially if your kid has special needs. It'll make you question your sense of who you are. It'll be the highest of highs (the first time your kid smiles at you) and the lowest of lows (wondering how the hell everyone else is doing parenting so much better than you & realizing that you don't know how to do it any better than what you are).
If you and your wife feel like your life will be incomplete without a child, I'd say that's an important question to ask yourselves. How would you handle having a special needs child, both individually and as a couple? How committed are you to handling really long term, really hard tasks together?
Those things don't cost money, they cost time, as well as mental and emotional fortitude. Those are, in my mind, the most important costs to weigh.
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but having a child with a large disability like that, where they could never become independent, is probably my largest fear. I don't mean offense by this, but will be typing openly, so don't read on if you think it might significantly hurt by someone's thoughts on the matter.
I'm grappling with the choice of taking on the massive responsibility of caring for a child for 18 years. If you are one of the few that has a child with a major disability, this could transform to a full lifetime commitment. It might also prevent some of the experiences of raising children that many people have them for. I know what I'm saying is very selfish, but I still believe that most people have children for selfish reasons... or else why have children at all? In a previous response, I discussed the duality of selfishness and selflessness that the choice to have children entails.
I don't know how I'd respond to having a child with a disability. It's sort of incomprehensible at this point. I think I'd try to still do a good job taking care of the child. But I'm tempted to say that if honest with myself, I would absolutely regret it under those conditions. I fear that I'd feel an overwhelming sense of doom and depression. Hopefully you don't find this view depressing or insulting.... I would think a number of people share this opinion. I have in-laws with an autistic child... I have massive respect for them being good parents to the child (who is now an adult requiring care)... it is not what I want.
I guess a lot of this is obvious; no one goes in wanting a child with a disability. It happens unexpectedly. Maybe the way I think about this is like sky diving. Maybe 99% of the time it is an awesome life-changing experience, but 1% of the time your backpack is full of picnic supplies rather than a parachute.
Some people get to a point about having no regrets about having a child with a disability... are able to still be happy. There is at least one reddit thread out there discussing people who do regret it but would never admit it openly due to societal/etc pressure. I don't know where I'd end up landing. As I think about this, I'm not sure how anyone can know in advance... a singularity of sorts.
I think this partly reflects my general aversion to risk. Do you avoid having a potentially rewarding experience due to a small risk of disaster? This of course applies in other areas beyond child-rearing.
I'm sort of blabbing on and on at this point... but I guess I'm trying to answer the original questions. How would I response to having a special needs child? Well, the above hopefully shows you that I'm terrified of that possibility. It depends how far on the spectrum he/she is. Mild autism seems like no big deal; severe autism would be very hard. It seems to put at risk everything that my wife and I have been working towards (e.g. FIRE). My wife would probably handle better than me. Usually I am more the one to remain calm during difficult situations, but a situation like this would shake me to the core. I cannot predict how I would respond. Hopefully through much internal struggle I would evolve and grow. My wife and I typically handle long-term, really hard things very well. We work well together and are generally responsible. I still think these particular sorts of scenarios are unknowns, which are hard to predict. Most of us have not had to deal with situations like this.
A response question is, do you make decisions based on the worst-case-scenarios or based on the most likely scenario, or both? These are complex thoughts, and exactly what I am wrestling with (but mostly focusing on the most likely scenarios).
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Well I had a particularly shitty weekend and it was really the first time that I can see the drawback of "losing freedom" with having kids, so I'll share my experience. It may or may not be relevant.
Our dog died on Sunday morning. My husband took her body to the vet to be cremated and when he came home, he didn't want to sit at home so we went out for some errands with the kids. Got home around 330 after picking up some take out. I started throwing up at 4:30. Was fine overnight until about 5:30 the next morning, when the throwing up started again. My husband was quite distraught about the dog, and felt the house seemed empty even with two rambunctious kiddos running around. He kept asking me to come downstairs so he would feel less alone. I complied, but promptly had to run back upstairs to throw up and lay down. Finally I felt well enough to call his friend to come keep him company since I was of no use. However, a few hours later, I decided that I needed to go the ER for anti nausea meds and IV fluids (I'm pregnant). So he had the friend take me to the ER and he was still stuck at home grieving the dog and caring for the kids. If we didn't have kids (or if we had someone to watch the kids), he would have taken me to the ER and then at least he wouldn't be at home alone with his grief. He needed me to be with him and I couldn't be, and it really bothered me. I tried to think through the possible solutions of who to call to help with the kids and how to resolve the situation, but nothing was reasonable at the time (I probably wasn't thinking super clearly). To me, this was the ultimate loss of freedom, much more than not being able to drink coffee or poop alone. Thankfully we have a great friend so at least my husband didn't have to worry about me in addition to the dog and the kids. It still totally sucked to have my body fail at the exact time that my husband truly needed me and there was nothing we could do because we couldn't drag the kids to the ER and we didn't have anyone that could watch them (his friend is a single guy with not much kid experience. The kids love him but he didn't feel comfortable being alone with them on short notice for who-knows-how-long-an-ER-visit-takes.)
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For me it comes down to money. I could FIRE on my own, but to pay for all the things a kid would need for me to feel like a good parent I would need to work several years longer. I absolutely value freedom from work more than offspring. If i were already rich, or lived in a society with paid family leave laws, subsidized high quality childcare, and free college I would consider it. Then all the costs if the child is special needs?
No way.
I always joke with people who try to pressure me about having children (mid thirties woman here) that they are welcome to give me 24k upfront each year for the cost of day care where I live. Time relates to money too because if I had money I could pay for a break or send them to boarding school.
Something that has helped me think about it is watching vlogs of people who have kids. You really get the every dayness of it. Every day, there they are, throwing up on you, not sleeping through the night, spending your money on food they refuse to eat. Supposedly its worth it when they say I love you mommy/daddy. But I don't see it.
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Spouse and I waited until 33 & 34 to have a kid (we were 32 & 34 when we got pregnant). We began our marriage under the presumption that we wouldn't have children, by choice. Once I hit 30, I began really wanting a child, just because I felt like something was missing from my life. Spouse and I decided that the time was right to try for a kid. We did consider how we'd handle a child with severe medical or cognitive needs. Decided to go ahead and try anyway, understanding that "we got what we got," and there's no use planning on things going according to plan. 5 years after that choice, we have an almost 3 year old son with autism. He's a wonderful child and I wouldn't change a thing about him.
The hardest things about parenting at our house are the lack of free time, given that spouse and I both need a lot of "me" time. Son is a handful of energy and needs constant attention and stimulation.
We haven't had a lot of time for each other, and we've argued over who does more childcare, house chores, etc. Sometimes, we both think that we're failing as parents, especially when it seems that everyone else has this parenting thing down, and we're still struggling to get our kid to hold a spoon. However, it has deepened my love for my spouse, as he had been an incredibly affectionate and involved father, more than I ever thought he would be.
Parenting is hard. Especially if your kid has special needs. It'll make you question your sense of who you are. It'll be the highest of highs (the first time your kid smiles at you) and the lowest of lows (wondering how the hell everyone else is doing parenting so much better than you & realizing that you don't know how to do it any better than what you are).
If you and your wife feel like your life will be incomplete without a child, I'd say that's an important question to ask yourselves. How would you handle having a special needs child, both individually and as a couple? How committed are you to handling really long term, really hard tasks together?
Those things don't cost money, they cost time, as well as mental and emotional fortitude. Those are, in my mind, the most important costs to weigh.
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but having a child with a large disability like that, where they could never become independent, is probably my largest fear. I don't mean offense by this, but will be typing openly, so don't read on if you think it might significantly hurt by someone's thoughts on the matter.
I'm grappling with the choice of taking on the massive responsibility of caring for a child for 18 years. If you are one of the few that has a child with a major disability, this could transform to a full lifetime commitment. It might also prevent some of the experiences of raising children that many people have them for. I know what I'm saying is very selfish, but I still believe that most people have children for selfish reasons... or else why have children at all? In a previous response, I discussed the duality of selfishness and selflessness that the choice to have children entails.
I don't know how I'd respond to having a child with a disability. It's sort of incomprehensible at this point. I think I'd try to still do a good job taking care of the child. But I'm tempted to say that if honest with myself, I would absolutely regret it under those conditions. I fear that I'd feel an overwhelming sense of doom and depression. Hopefully you don't find this view depressing or insulting.... I would think a number of people share this opinion. I have in-laws with an autistic child... I have massive respect for them being good parents to the child (who is now an adult requiring care)... it is not what I want.
I guess a lot of this is obvious; no one goes in wanting a child with a disability. It happens unexpectedly. Maybe the way I think about this is like sky diving. Maybe 99% of the time it is an awesome life-changing experience, but 1% of the time your backpack is full of picnic supplies rather than a parachute.
Some people get to a point about having no regrets about having a child with a disability... are able to still be happy. There is at least one reddit thread out there discussing people who do regret it but would never admit it openly due to societal/etc pressure. I don't know where I'd end up landing. As I think about this, I'm not sure how anyone can know in advance... a singularity of sorts.
I think this partly reflects my general aversion to risk. Do you avoid having a potentially rewarding experience due to a small risk of disaster? This of course applies in other areas beyond child-rearing.
I'm sort of blabbing on and on at this point... but I guess I'm trying to answer the original questions. How would I response to having a special needs child? Well, the above hopefully shows you that I'm terrified of that possibility. It depends how far on the spectrum he/she is. Mild autism seems like no big deal; severe autism would be very hard. It seems to put at risk everything that my wife and I have been working towards (e.g. FIRE). My wife would probably handle better than me. Usually I am more the one to remain calm during difficult situations, but a situation like this would shake me to the core. I cannot predict how I would respond. Hopefully through much internal struggle I would evolve and grow. My wife and I typically handle long-term, really hard things very well. We work well together and are generally responsible. I still think these particular sorts of scenarios are unknowns, which are hard to predict. Most of us have not had to deal with situations like this.
A response question is, do you make decisions based on the worst-case-scenarios or based on the most likely scenario, or both? These are complex thoughts, and exactly what I am wrestling with (but mostly focusing on the most likely scenarios).
Warning: please skip if you are sensitive about termination
My husband and I had a heart to heart before kids(actually before we got married since we were serious about this one - this was one of the few make or break questions) and decided we'd terminate if we found the baby would have issues when it is inside. Our thinking is that we don't want to prolong the pain the baby is in for our selfish reasons (to be parents, to use modern medicine, etc). If the baby comes out and we then find issues (autism, disability due to accident, etc), then we'll suck it up and deal with it. But we can't knowingly let our kid suffer from birth.
I'm sure not everyone thinks this way but this is what makes sense for us. Luckily we haven't needed to test it out. HTH.
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Case,
Here is another thing to consider....
My friend insisted to her husband that they have kids, and he agreed to one (second marriage for him, he had hoped to be done with kids). Then she insisted on a second, pretty much agreeing that he would be a somewhat hands off dad. He travelled a heck of a lot for his work, etc. What she did not realize was that her husband's family had a history of ADHD, which meant she had kids that were an especial handful... and she was ready to call it quits for a while there... Instead she got a nanny and a housekeeper.
If either you or your wife's family have ADHD, consider that in the mix.
For those that are especially fearful of having a kid with a disability, I was too. Then as I grew up and actually looked a what these kids are like and what their parent's lives are like, I realized that these are some of the most awesome kids out there. (Not talking about relatively rare low functioning autism here..but other physical disabilities, down syndrome, etc.