POLL: What are your annual expenses (per adult, housing excluded)?

[dragoncar]

This is per adult and excludes housing.

No complaining that it's not per household.

[gecko10x]

Do "expenses" include debt servicing?
Or are you trying to gauge actual living costs? (Although I suppose some percentage of debt costs should be included in current living expenses as it does/did contribute to current lifestyle - but I would have no idea how much)

[arebelspy]

Here's what I posted in the other thread that lead to this one:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is our spending for the last 3 years (2 adults, Las Vegas area):
2011: ~$22,000
2012: ~$21,000
2013: ~$18,700

That includes our housing (mortgage, not rent) and student loans (both of which I technically could skip counting the principal part of those payments, and only count the interest, but I have included both the principal and interest amounts in the above figures).  Housing is about 6k/yr if you want to subtract that out and not count it to have an apples-to-apples comparison.

Additional income taxes paid above our withholdings (i.e. giant check we send to the IRS in in April) is not counted, though all other taxes (like property tax) are.

That counts lots of wasteful spending (we take vacations, have fancy electronics like iPads and laptops, unlimited iPhone plan, etc.) in there.  If we wanted to cut the fat, there's a lot we could trim.  But, as noted in the "frugal fatigue" thread, we spend as much as we want, whenever we want.

We did not mean to decrease our spending (actually were planning to increase it), it just happened, apparently (I was surprised when totaling the final numbers for 2013 a few weeks ago).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus I voted 5-10k (about 20.5k average annual spending over the past 3 years minus 6k in housing = 14.5k, divided by 2 adults = ~7300 each).

There's still some potential complainypants issues: where you live isn't counted (some places have a higher cost of living), kids aren't counted.

It's hard to cover everything in one poll though, thanks for making this one clear.  Hopefully people read it.  I did add the ability to change one's vote, in case they screw up a calculation and then realize they should have divided by two or something.  Good poll.

[TheDude]

I'm feeling pretty depressed. I figured out that we spend 20K on day care for our two kids. Once you add in mortgage and health insurance its 36K. We probably spend another 25-30K. I hate day care.

[Cheddar Stacker]

This is per adult and excludes housing.

No complaining that it's not per household.

I would like to file a formal complaint that this isn't per household. You mean I have to divide my total expenses by 2? Bullshit! : )

I voted 15-20 so I have some work to do. I think I'm somewhere in the $10K range for myself, but this isn't just me sooo, the average per adult is a bit higher than I'd like.

[Exflyboy]

I'm feeling pretty depressed. I figured out that we spend 20K on day care for our two kids. Once you add in mortgage and health insurance its 36K. We probably spend another 25-30K. I hate day care.

I bet you do,.. the good thing is it doesn't last forever...:)

Frank

[TLV]

Even with those specifics it's still a hard question to answer.

Our "expenses" for 2 adults (plus kids, but no daycare) were ~$35k last year and the year before, but last year housing was $18k and the year before it was only  $12k. This year housing will stay about the same but total "expenses" will go up to ~$40k. For the poll that puts us at $8.5k per adult for last year, $11.5k the year before, and $11k estimated for this coming year. I voted for $10k-$15k based on this.

I put expenses in quotes because these numbers exclude income tax, payroll tax, tithe (which is basically an income tax), and health insurance (because my employer pays the whole premium). That adds another ~$40k ($20k per adult) plus or minus $5k, more than doubling the previous numbers.

[wordygirl]

We still have a mortgage ($1150/month) and our latest budget has us at $2800 per month, or $33,600 annually. We can probably pare this down a bit more (I've started tracking energy use in the home, and itemizing grocery bills).

[wordygirl]

This is per adult and excludes housing.

Oops, didn't see this before.

Okay, with no housing costs and dividing it by 2 adults that would be $825/month or $9900/year. If we include the 2 kids and instead divide by 4 people, that is $412.50/month or $4950/year.

Wow....you just made me feel really good!! :-D

*edited to add*: if home insurance and property taxes are supposed to be included, then add $1600/year to my amount, divided by 2 adults is 800/year. So that brings my per person amount to $10,700/year.

[Cromacster]

Without our housing expenses we are right around 26,600. 2 adults in MN

Edit:  Per the Poll thats 13,300 per person.

[netskyblue]

$9017.15

Car/Renter's Insurance:  $855
Personal Articles Insurance (jewelry): $90
Energy: $1187.87 (facepunch me now)
Internet: $843
Cell Phone: $317.4
Netflix: $95.88
Car Registration & maintenance: $240
Gas: $780
Groceries, household, hobbies, and everything else in life: $3480
Gifts: $1128

[Bank]

I'm feeling pretty depressed. I figured out that we spend 20K on day care for our two kids. Once you add in mortgage and health insurance its 36K. We probably spend another 25-30K. I hate day care.

We spend about $2,000/month for one kid.  Boston COL.  So, to recap, we spend exorbitant sums of money so that someone else will hang out with the kids that we wish we could spend more time with.  Go us.

[RootofGood]

Ignoring mortgage payments (which are 90% principal anyway and just moving money from Peter to pay Paul), and excluding kid costs, we spent around $15,000 per year the last 4 years for 2 adults.  So $7500/yr per adult (voted $5-10k).

That includes housing costs like taxes, insurance, maintenance, appliance repairs, landscaping, and utilities.  Exclude those housing related expenses and we might creep into the "under $5k" threshold in some years. 

We live in the urban part of Raleigh, NC for reference.

[netskyblue]

To clarify (not that I'm a homeowner), but are homeowners supposed to be counting property taxes and homeowners insurance? 

[Mlkmn]

20-21k expenses.
14.4k of that is rent.

Around $3,000 per person.

We are really splurging on the apartment.

[Exflyboy]

To clarify (not that I'm a homeowner), but are homeowners supposed to be counting property taxes and homeowners insurance?

Yes.

Frank

[sol]

About $14k/adult, but that includes a house full of fancy electronics and other crap, a luxury SUV, three children including childcare and summer camps, annual vacations, way too much needless driving, and all of this in a high cost of living city.  Honestly I'm not sure how anyone spends more than we do without crushing debt service or profligate stupidity.  It's not like we're lacking any portion of the modern American consumerist lifestyle we just don't overpay for stuff.

[arebelspy]

To clarify (not that I'm a homeowner), but are homeowners supposed to be counting property taxes and homeowners insurance?

Yes.

Why would that be counted if housing is excluded?

Maybe the homeowners insurance (if renters have and count renter's insurance), but definitely not property tax.. renters pay that as well, it's just rolled into their rent.  If rent is excluded, naturally I'd think property taxes would be as well.

(But then again, don't ask me - I'd be counting housing in this, as some people choose 3,000 sq. ft. houses, some choose small apartments, some geographic locations have more expensive housing, yes, but you can choose to move.  Given that people can choose the size of their housing and choose where the housing is located, I'd be counting it as part of the expenses, personally. /shrug)

Honestly I'm not sure how anyone spends more than we do without crushing debt service or profligate stupidity.

It's a combination of both those, yes.

[Michread]

My teenagers are the size of adults and consume just as much as the 2 adults in our home, do they count? 

[warfreak2]

If they don't have incomes and help pay the bills, probably not, in the spirit of the question.

[Cheddar Stacker]

It gets very tricky when you start pulling out housing costs, because where do you stop? I have a mortgage, a HELOC, RE Tax, Insurance, Sewer, and gas/electric/trash/water. Those were listed roughly in the order I think they should be removed from this poll.

I included everything after insurance, but if I kept eliminating the other expenses it wouldn't change my answer to the poll.

Honestly I'm not sure how anyone spends more than we do without crushing debt service or profligate stupidity.

sol - My previous spending was never out of control hair on fire stuff, but certainly shameful in the eyes of a true mustachian. I think it comes from a combination of just simply not paying attention, and from constantly trying to buy happiness. Round of golf with friends, sure I'll do that. Trip to Mexico to celebrate Anniversary, why not? Things can add up quickly if you don't have the savers mindset, and I lost my ways over the last 10 years or so to lifestyle inflation. It's easier to do than you might think.

[kolorado]

Am I supposed to count our expenses as a family or am I counting only the expenses that don't include the kids?
Family of five expenses - housing /2 adults= $9600(includes health insurance for all 5)
2 adults expenses - housing /2 adults= $6050(includes parent only health insurance)

-edited to remove the family car expense and kid related driving from the second calculation

[Cassie]

I really find it amazing how some people can live on so little $. Health insurance really kills us at $8400.00/year.  However, we are older with some chronic conditions and do have good insurance.  My hubby's last bout with cancer would have been financially devastating without good insurance.

[windawake]

Even before I found MMM I was spending $18-20k/year including housing (12-14k/year excluding). Finding MMM has helped me resist lifestyle inflation but my expenses have hardly changed. Sometimes I spend less but then I need to 'make up' later for not purchasing important things I need (like shoes or clothes). I spend the largest chunk of my money (besides rent) on food, mmmmm.

[arebelspy]

It gets very tricky when you start pulling out housing costs, because where do you stop? I have a mortgage, a HELOC, RE Tax, Insurance, Sewer, and gas/electric/trash/water. Those were listed roughly in the order I think they should be removed from this poll.

That's a good point.

If utilities are included in your rent, but you exclude rent...

Another reason to not exclude housing, or anything else.

Like I said though, it's hard to design a perfect poll. This works fine, and the answer bands are wide enough that it's probably a rounding error either way.

[Travis]

We're spending $18k per adult.  Half that amount is housing.  Our housing consists of a 3 br apartment in one of the more affluent neighborhoods in the area, but practically across the street from work.  Health care is completely covered by my career.  $4000 of our spending this year is my tuition which will go away in October when I graduate.

[Cheddar Stacker]

It gets very tricky when you start pulling out housing costs, because where do you stop? I have a mortgage, a HELOC, RE Tax, Insurance, Sewer, and gas/electric/trash/water. Those were listed roughly in the order I think they should be removed from this poll.

Like I said though, it's hard to design a perfect poll. This works fine, and the answer bands are wide enough that it's probably a rounding error either way.

Agreed. Perfect is the enemy of good. This poll is very good, and a perfect poll would take too long to build and answer.

[taekvideo]

<5k for me excluding housing
mostly food/utilities

[Unionville]

I'm feeling pretty depressed. I figured out that we spend 20K on day care for our two kids. Once you add in mortgage and health insurance its 36K. We probably spend another 25-30K. I hate day care.

wow, that's amazing it costs so much for daycare.  You could get a 20,000 raise just by quitting your job.

[bigchrisb]

I'm in the obscene category here.  $53k including $25k/year of travel.  My expenses are pretty terrible in absolute terms. The only redeemer is the relative numbers, with saving/investing averaging $111k/year. I need to stop focusing on the ratios and try to drive the absolutes down. 

[Workinghard]

Well, this thread is depressing. We spend way too much. Course if I can deduct properly tax $2500, home expense 5k, and donations 16k+, it would help. And then there's utilities $5200, which will be less in an apartmen. Old cars/gas/ insurance have set us back another  8k. Oh, if I got rid of my hubby that would eliminate ~7k in medical expense excluding flex account, but I would kinda miss him.

[Kriegsspiel]

I'm in the $5-10k band.

[sheepstache]

This past year, it was a little over 18k.  $6500 of that is taxes.  It also includes about 3k paid back on a 401k loan, so technically I still have that money...

So, I guess I feel okay about $8500 discretionary spending?  No, I'm not sure how I feel.

[Unionville]

I'm so stunned most of you live off so little.  I don't consider myself a spend thrift (I don't own a car, no cable and paid for house) but I still spend about $40,000 a year.  I know that $10,000 is medical, $5000 is property taxes and utilities, but where is the other $25,000 go?  I better find out.

[Cherry Lane]

I've included RE taxes, home insurance, and utilities, etc., because those are expenses I will still have once I pay off my mortgage.  Because my RE taxes are so high, eliminating them would drop me down a category. 

I live in a too-large house by myself, so I don't get to divide my expenses with anyone else.  My extravagant lifestyle (I spent nearly $3k last year on a category I call "recreation," which does not include travel) puts me in the next-to-highest category of this poll.

[dragoncar]

I'm so stunned most of you live off so little.  I don't consider myself a spend thrift (I don't own a car, no cable and paid for house) but I still spend about $40,000 a year.  I know that $10,000 is medical, $5000 is property taxes and utilities, but where is the other $25,000 go?  I better find out.

Interestingly, the mode is right on par with MMM

[daverobev]

I'm so stunned most of you live off so little.  I don't consider myself a spend thrift (I don't own a car, no cable and paid for house) but I still spend about $40,000 a year.  I know that $10,000 is medical, $5000 is property taxes and utilities, but where is the other $25,000 go?  I better find out.

I voted 5-10k... thing is, if you're out of the habit... $100 seems like a lot of money (hint: it IS a lot of money; you can eat for 2, 3, 4 weeks on it!).

I bought a car in 2010 when I first got to Canada; $5k or a bit more with the tax. In 2012 I got another one (wife uses the first).. $2.5k. I haven't flown anywhere except on business for a long time, work from home, we haven't bought any furniture (FIL sold their house in Canada just as I arrived so we scooped up a load of stuff then, and we've picked up second hand stuff along the way...).

My last laptop was $300 (new one), hrm and a $200 second hand one (development work). New phone was $50 in the Boxing Day sales. Internet is $30 a month. No cable, no land line, pay as you go mobile phone (=$45/6 months).

Now - I need a holiday. I really do. We're going Somewhere Warm soon for a couple of weeks, so I expect to spend a couple of thousand... well, maybe less, as we'll be visiting my wife's family.

We got a new baby.. but she was free ;).. as has been pretty much *everything* related to her - SIL has three girls, so clothes-wise we're in awesome shape; we got given a load of second hand cloth nappies...

The big thing is to avoid regular payments. Oh, it's just $60 a month.. plus the $100 a month.. plus that subscription...

Ach, well. Who am I to tell you how to live :) I am looking forward to loosening up about my finances, actually. I just find that I dislike cities, advertising and all that.. I just want to go walking in the wilderness!

[G-dog]

I haven't yet started tracking expenses exactly - but my estimate was $9100/mon/adult.
I excluded pets, then selected the $10-15k range by accident, vpbut left the vote in that range just in case...

[Zikoris]

$8661 each per year if we exclude housing. Though $3800 of that is our totally frivolous and extravagant international travel. So around $4900 each for actual non-housing spending.

[Abe]

Good job everyone! I am impressed by people's skills at saving!

My wife and I are big spenders at $16k/year each:
$5k each for food/restaurants (major expense other than housing)
$4.5k for car/gas/insurance (take emergency call so need cars, boo!)
$2k for all bills/utilities/etc
$1.5k for all shopping
$1.5k for travel
$1k for gifts/charity
$500 for healthcare

This is basically spending whatever we feel like, though we are eating at home more. I think we are both naturally frugal so it's not difficult even living in a big city. We've managed to save about 3 years' worth of living expenses last year!

[Nudelkopf]

Oh man, who are the sub 5k people? That's awesome!

Also, I voted in Australian dollars (~$11k), but using some of HappierAtHome's maths maybe I should have voted in the $5-10k category. (At about $9700 USD)

According to the OECD comparative price levels (halfway down this wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity, though I'm sure you could find the full info on the OECD site itself) it would take $145 US dollars to buy the same goods and services in Australia that would cost $100 in the US. Aussie dollar is at 88c right now, so that $145 US is $164.50 AUS.

Which means that $10,000 or less in the US effectively equals $16,450 in Australia when you take into account the exchange rate and a basic purchasing power parity calculation.

[soccerluvof4]

Were definately despite cuts over 35k and we dont have car cost per sae as there through my biz and house is paid for.  But our health insurance is 22,800 a year for family of 6 through our biz and were working on getting that down and i have groceries down to 720$ a month for family a 6 but still thats 8400$. And with 4 kids in select soccer..Yikes! Just got back from vegas for 5 day tournament and i didnt gamble or anything and still was 2400$ for flight etc...I dont have a total monthly expense yet as we have been entering into personal capital for about a month but easily 20k plus per adult and no I am not proud of that. Shave 1k a month already but lots to do!

[secondcor521]

I'm at about $21K, but I have a DS14 and a DD12 that together weigh as much as one adult, so I don't feel too bad about where I'm at.  If they counted, then I'd be at $10.5K.

[WageSlave]

I picked $25-30k, I may be the un-winner here.  That's per-adult.  We are a family of four: two adults, a toddler and a baby.

Here's the biggest hitters (excluding rent/homeowner's costs) from 2012 and 2013 for your "financial porn" for the day.  This is for the whole household, not per-person:

Code: [Select]

Entertainment           5,900    7,500
Automotive              5,200    1,900
Babysitting             1,000    5,000
Cell phone              2,300    1,700
Clothes                 1,000    1,300
Gifts                   2,000    3,300
Groceries               8,000    7,200
Household Goods         3,000    4,500
Pets                    1,900    1,800
Professional Services     400    4,000
Vacation                7,000    1,800

Let the face-punching begin.  All I can say is, at least I'm doing better than MMM's old co-workers.

At the end of the day, many of these costs are conveniences for us.  I am lucky to have a job where I can still save a significant amount of money despite these ludicrous costs.  We could DIY a lot more things (auto maintenance, home cleaning, income taxes, snow removal), but with work and the two young kids, we consider ourselves "time poor".  Our kids are too young to go without adult supervision, and also too young to help with DIY projects.  So anything we would in-source rather than outsource would come at the expense of time with our kids (or sleep).  We are willing to give up neither.

[Paul der Krake]

I was under 5k in 2013, but that included me visiting family for almost 3 months, with expenses during that time of < 100/month.

Projecting ~7k and some change for 2014.

[Elaine]

$11,000 for me

[Thegoblinchief]

Minus housing, we spend $24K a year, so I voted in the 10-15K bracket.

For details, this does include 3 kids and $10,300 annual student loans.

If we exclude the student loans AND housing, we spend $7K per adult.

If you count kids as 0.5 adults (reasonable for food and such), we spend $4K per "adult equivalent".

Edit: didn't factor in health insurance in this (though I did include OOP costs), should we be doing that? That would add about $6K for our contribution, $16Kish roughly for the total "value".

[daverobev]

I picked $25-30k, I may be the un-winner here.  That's per-adult.  We are a family of four: two adults, a toddler and a baby.

Here's the biggest hitters (excluding rent/homeowner's costs) from 2012 and 2013 for your "financial porn" for the day.  This is for the whole household, not per-person:

Code: [Select]

Entertainment           5,900    7,500
Automotive              5,200    1,900
Babysitting             1,000    5,000
Cell phone              2,300    1,700
Clothes                 1,000    1,300
Gifts                   2,000    3,300
Groceries               8,000    7,200
Household Goods         3,000    4,500
Pets                    1,900    1,800
Professional Services     400    4,000
Vacation                7,000    1,800

Let the face-punching begin.  All I can say is, at least I'm doing better than MMM's old co-workers.

At the end of the day, many of these costs are conveniences for us.  I am lucky to have a job where I can still save a significant amount of money despite these ludicrous costs.  We could DIY a lot more things (auto maintenance, home cleaning, income taxes, snow removal), but with work and the two young kids, we consider ourselves "time poor".  Our kids are too young to go without adult supervision, and also too young to help with DIY projects.  So anything we would in-source rather than outsource would come at the expense of time with our kids (or sleep).  We are willing to give up neither.

I don't get it - I mean, most of that is a choice, it's fine, whatever - but how do you spend $700 a month on entertainment? What... how much is going to see a movie, $30? A movie every weeknight?! Does not compute!

Or is it a boat, or something like that?

What are household goods - furniture?

WOAH HOLD ON, babysitting five k? Wow!

[WageSlave]

I don't get it - I mean, most of that is a choice, it's fine, whatever - but how do you spend $700 a month on entertainment? What... how much is going to see a movie, $30? A movie every weeknight?! Does not compute!

Or is it a boat, or something like that?

Nope, no boat.  Can't even remember the last movie we saw (in a theater anyway).  Most of that is "dining out", which would more appropriately be called "ordering in" since we never go out to eat (baby too fussy).  So that's generally something like pizza delivery on the weekends, or maybe my wife grabs some fast food while she's out running errands.

That would also include "adult toys" (no, not that kind), for hobby-related things.  The average over two years is actually closer to $500/month.  Still high, I know, but 2013 had a couple big outliers where we bought stuff for our new house that was clearly not required, but fell into the "luxury" category, and so I filed it under entertainment.

What are household goods - furniture?

Nope, furniture is a separate category.  This category for us has always been high relative to everyone on these forums.  It includes things like diapers, baby wipes, batteries, over-the-counter medications, cleaning supplies, feminine products, laundry detergent, toothbrushes, deodorant, toilet paper... I had hopes that this would go down when we joined Costco, as virtually all of this stuff is purchased there, but it didn't seem to have much of an effect.  At least half of that cost is for diapers and baby wipes.  And 2013 had an unusual bump due to buying a bunch of random stuff for our new house.

WOAH HOLD ON, babysitting five k? Wow!

That includes two days a week of in-home day care for the toddler, which we started when baby #2 was born last year.

I look at these numbers and agree, by MMM standards, we're out of control.  But I've put a lot of effort into trying to trim away the fat, and my conclusion is that it's "death by a 1000 cuts".  There doesn't seem to be one obvious big silly thing I'm doing, it's a lot of little things that add up.  Maybe I should start another thread and see if people can point out what I'm over looking.

I keep rationalizing it by saying I'll have so much more time when the kids are both old enough to either play together without 100% supervision or actually help out with chores around the house.  That, plus actually FIRE'ing will open up a lot of time to DIY more stuff.

[windawake]

Nope, furniture is a separate category.  This category for us has always been high relative to everyone on these forums.  It includes things like diapers, baby wipes, batteries, over-the-counter medications, cleaning supplies, feminine products, laundry detergent, toothbrushes, deodorant, toilet paper... I had hopes that this would go down when we joined Costco, as virtually all of this stuff is purchased there, but it didn't seem to have much of an effect.  At least half of that cost is for diapers and baby wipes.  And 2013 had an unusual bump due to buying a bunch of random stuff for our new house.

Have you ever considered making some of your own products or using alternatives? For example using a Diva Cup (for your wife) (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/mustachian-ladies-(and-interested-sirs)-here's-the-trick-to-save-every-month!!/msg215190/#msg215190) or making your own deodorant, laundry detergent, etc. (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/make-your-own-products-(cleaning-condiments-bodycare-etc-)/msg213853/#msg213853)

I used to go to the pharmacy a lot, and now I never do. It's eliminated that errand and put some money in my pocket.