Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness

[JGS1980]

College students do not have to go to private schools, wear Canada Goose parkas, carry iPhone 11s, eat sushi for lunch and have Starbucks three times a day. You don't need to take out ridiculous loans if you work in the summer, live frugally and attend a state school and/or community college or a trade school. A loan forgiveness program would simply mean that the smarter more mustachian students are paying for both their own modest loans as well as (through taxes) the extravagant college degrees and lifestyles of others.

I just want to chime in here... I worked at least 2 jobs at a time (and often more) throughout college, 12-30 hours per week, and summer service industry jobs, all for $7.25-$10/hr, and I worked as an RA for room and board for two years, AND I finished my degree a year early. I went to a public state school - the best one in my state, but not the most expensive. I ate beans and rice and bought the bar soap off the bottom shelf. I didn't go out to bars or restaurants, ever. No spring break trips. Definitely no Canada Goose (I remember when I starting seeing those, wtf?) My mom got me a new coat at Costco once, that was nice. I still finished undergrad $50K in the hole. My various jobs barely covered the costs of my books and $200 "access codes" so I could do my homework each semester.

I hear this "just work and go to a state school!" sound bite all the time and it really rankles me. I don't know anyone from my school who pulled it off without a scholarship, and I ran with the other working class kids. Maybe other states have cheaper schools? One would have to have a truly exceptional work ethic (and good luck) to get out with both good grades and little debt with no outside help. 40 hours a week (at minimum wage) for 50 weeks would not even cover tuition and fees. (all of my university jobs paid the federal minimum wage, though I think they increased it to a "living wage" last year).

Anyway, I think a student loan forgiveness bill is a shitty bandaid for a shitty issue. I would love for my last $15K of debt to be wiped out, especially given how my university recently started giving full rides to students from my financial background (ouch). But I think finding a way to permanently lower the cost of university would be the best solution for everyone.

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

I agree with everyone that comprehensive student loan and college education reform is necessary as part of this whole topic of student loan forgiveness.... BUTTTTTT, do you have the votes for this?

We can't even pass raising the federal minimum wage above 7.25$/hour.

Part of why Biden is prosing 10K student loan forgiveness is because this is WHAT HE CAN DO without 60 votes in the Senate.  Don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

[anni]

College students do not have to go to private schools, wear Canada Goose parkas, carry iPhone 11s, eat sushi for lunch and have Starbucks three times a day. You don't need to take out ridiculous loans if you work in the summer, live frugally and attend a state school and/or community college or a trade school. A loan forgiveness program would simply mean that the smarter more mustachian students are paying for both their own modest loans as well as (through taxes) the extravagant college degrees and lifestyles of others.

I just want to chime in here... I worked at least 2 jobs at a time (and often more) throughout college, 12-30 hours per week, and summer service industry jobs, all for $7.25-$10/hr, and I worked as an RA for room and board for two years, AND I finished my degree a year early. I went to a public state school - the best one in my state, but not the most expensive. I ate beans and rice and bought the bar soap off the bottom shelf. I didn't go out to bars or restaurants, ever. No spring break trips. Definitely no Canada Goose (I remember when I starting seeing those, wtf?) My mom got me a new coat at Costco once, that was nice. I still finished undergrad $50K in the hole. My various jobs barely covered the costs of my books and $200 "access codes" so I could do my homework each semester.

I hear this "just work and go to a state school!" sound bite all the time and it really rankles me. I don't know anyone from my school who pulled it off without a scholarship, and I ran with the other working class kids. Maybe other states have cheaper schools? One would have to have a truly exceptional work ethic (and good luck) to get out with both good grades and little debt with no outside help. 40 hours a week (at minimum wage) for 50 weeks would not even cover tuition and fees. (all of my university jobs paid the federal minimum wage, though I think they increased it to a "living wage" last year).

Anyway, I think a student loan forgiveness bill is a shitty bandaid for a shitty issue. I would love for my last $15K of debt to be wiped out, especially given how my university recently started giving full rides to students from my financial background (ouch). But I think finding a way to permanently lower the cost of university would be the best solution for everyone.

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

I agree with everyone that comprehensive student loan and college education reform is necessary as part of this whole topic of student loan forgiveness.... BUTTTTTT, do you have the votes for this?

We can't even pass raising the federal minimum wage above 7.25$/hour.

Part of why Biden is prosing 10K student loan forgiveness is because this is WHAT HE CAN DO without 60 votes in the Senate.  Don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Oh yeah, I voted pro on the $50K forgiveness. It's what I would have wanted four years ago, and it's what people I care about need. And if it pisses some people off, hopefully it lights a fire to push more effective, efficient reforms.

[GuitarStv]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

[Cranky]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Eh, I know some pretty broke lawyers and engineers. I know people with Computer Science degrees who could never get a decent job and moved on to something else.

I also know my dd who makes a very decent salary with degrees in English and theology. ;-)

[American GenX]

I definitely oppose it.  These are people that should be able to pay back their loans and have their whole careers ahead of them to do it.

Why don't we just pay off everyone's mortgage and all of their cars?   How about for older people that don't have a lot of their career ahead of them to pay down debt.   Let's just give everyone free money whether they need it or not.

Ten years ago, I never would have expected anyone to seriously propose this craziness of paying off student loan debt and have any significant amount of people actually support it beyond the people who personally benefit from it while passing their debt on to the rest of us taxpayers, who are not interested in paying it off for them.

[GuitarStv]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Eh, I know some pretty broke lawyers and engineers. I know people with Computer Science degrees who could never get a decent job and moved on to something else.

I also know my dd who makes a very decent salary with degrees in English and theology. ;-)

Fair enough.

Then it must be the law and engineering degrees that are overvalued.  We should probably focus on reducing the costs of getting a STEM degree and letting those greedy big salary theology majors fend for themselves with their high rolling jobs.

[trygeek]

Just get rid of the student loan program. The whole reason the cost of college is so astronomical is because you can use student loans to pay for it. Get rid of the loans and the cost of college comes down. Just a theory. Or do something like an income share agreement for a set amount of time. Something like the Purdue University Back a Boiler program they take a set amount of your income for so many years to pay for your education. The great thing about this is it doesn't matter if you are not making that great of money when you are starting out they just take the same percent.

[Cranky]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Eh, I know some pretty broke lawyers and engineers. I know people with Computer Science degrees who could never get a decent job and moved on to something else.

I also know my dd who makes a very decent salary with degrees in English and theology. ;-)

Fair enough.

Then it must be the law and engineering degrees that are overvalued.  We should probably focus on reducing the costs of getting a STEM degree and letting those greedy big salary theology majors fend for themselves with their high rolling jobs.

A lot of science degrees are pretty useless at the undergrad level. If you don’t go on to a graduate degree you are on the hook for your loans.

[GuitarStv]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Eh, I know some pretty broke lawyers and engineers. I know people with Computer Science degrees who could never get a decent job and moved on to something else.

I also know my dd who makes a very decent salary with degrees in English and theology. ;-)

Fair enough.

Then it must be the law and engineering degrees that are overvalued.  We should probably focus on reducing the costs of getting a STEM degree and letting those greedy big salary theology majors fend for themselves with their high rolling jobs.

A lot of science degrees are pretty useless at the undergrad level. If you don’t go on to a graduate degree you are on the hook for your loans.

Quantify 'a lot' for me.

Everything I've read says that STEM degrees average much higher salaries than arts degrees.  Some degrees do far better with graduate studies . . . but the majority (including nearly all engineering courses) will do just fine without.

This isn't an attack on the arts or an argument that science is the best.  Arts are essential to our society.  In my first example I explicitly took the highest average paying degrees (which happen to all be science related) and compared them with the lowest average paying degrees (which happen to all be arts related) . . . and was putting forth the idea that the cost of a degree should probably reflect the ability of a person to repay that cost post graduation.

Average salary of a Drama and Theater Arts degree is under 40k.  Average salary for the majority of Engineering degrees is over 80k.  It doesn't make sense that a degree in one should cost anywhere near a degree in the other.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to chase whatever area of study that they want to learn - but it would be nice to stop punishing the folks who are not likely to be as prosperous with the same levels of debt as those who are probably going to be rich.

We also need to stop lying to people about their post graduation prospects.  Is it possible to have a shit career after graduating with a STEM degree?  Sure.  Is it possible to become rich after graduating as a Women's Studies major?  Sure . . . nothing is impossible.  But are these scenarios likely?  Hell no.  Not according to the numbers.

[Malum Prohibitum]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Very few persons have the IQ necessary to get a degree and be successful in Engineering, Pharmaceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . .

I am not saying anything about your post is "wrong." 

[Cranky]

A college degree is not at all a ticket to a middle class life anymore. It shouldn't be priced like it is.

A good college degree is a ticket to a middle class life.

Engineering, Pharmeceutical Sciences, Genetics, Materials Science, Applied Math, Computer Science, etc. . . it's hard to fuck up earing reasonable money with a career based on this education.  The problem is that there exist many college degrees of there that doesn't hold.  Drama and Theater Arts, Visual and Performance Arts, Fine Arts, Composition and Rhetoric, Women's Studies, etc. . . it's difficult to use these degrees to make money.  Doesn't mean they're without value, but the price of these degrees that won't get you paid are way inflated over a fair market rate.

Eh, I know some pretty broke lawyers and engineers. I know people with Computer Science degrees who could never get a decent job and moved on to something else.

I also know my dd who makes a very decent salary with degrees in English and theology. ;-)

Fair enough.

Then it must be the law and engineering degrees that are overvalued.  We should probably focus on reducing the costs of getting a STEM degree and letting those greedy big salary theology majors fend for themselves with their high rolling jobs.

A lot of science degrees are pretty useless at the undergrad level. If you don’t go on to a graduate degree you are on the hook for your loans.

Quantify 'a lot' for me.

Everything I've read says that STEM degrees average much higher salaries than arts degrees.  Some degrees do far better with graduate studies . . . but the majority (including nearly all engineering courses) will do just fine without.

This isn't an attack on the arts or an argument that science is the best.  Arts are essential to our society.  In my first example I explicitly took the highest average paying degrees (which happen to all be science related) and compared them with the lowest average paying degrees (which happen to all be arts related) . . . and was putting forth the idea that the cost of a degree should probably reflect the ability of a person to repay that cost post graduation.

Average salary of a Drama and Theater Arts degree is under 40k.  Average salary for the majority of Engineering degrees is over 80k.  It doesn't make sense that a degree in one should cost anywhere near a degree in the other.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to chase whatever area of study that they want to learn - but it would be nice to stop punishing the folks who are not likely to be as prosperous with the same levels of debt as those who are probably going to be rich.

We also need to stop lying to people about their post graduation prospects.  Is it possible to have a shit career after graduating with a STEM degree?  Sure.  Is it possible to become rich after graduating as a Women's Studies major?  Sure . . . nothing is impossible.  But are these scenarios likely?  Hell no.  Not according to the numbers.

It’s the “science” part that is misleading, IMO - a 4 year science degree rarely positions you for a well paid entry level job.

But the thing that I have most learned from this group is that tech jobs are incredibly awful, which is why they have to pay well. I would never recommend that anyone pursue a degree in that unless the truly do have a passion for, because it seems to be awful work.

I think it’s way better to make $40k at work you enjoy than $80k at something that is constantly described as “soul sucking”.

[seattlecyclone]

Everything I've read says that STEM degrees average much higher salaries than arts degrees.

Sure, but "STEM" is a pretty meaningless categorization. Math is not the same as chemistry is not the same as nuclear engineering. Someone who earns a degree in one of these fields is very much not interchangeable with someone who earns a degree in a different STEM field, and the pay can vary pretty wildly between them. The average being high across the "STEM" categorization says something about many of the fields in that group, but it absolutely does not mean that every one of those degrees has a similar likelihood of being a ticket to an early retirement.

A friend who studied physics explained to me once that an undergraduate degree in physics is pretty limiting. You're qualified to be a high school physics teacher (not exactly a lucrative career), or a lab assistant washing glassware or something (also doesn't pay well). You can maybe talk your way into an entry-level job in software or engineering (which do pay well), but your chances of getting the job and being prepared for it would be better with a different degree. In essence, if you don't want to be a high school teacher or stick it out through the PhD to become a Real Scientist, you should probably pick something else to study.

[ender]

Everything I've read says that STEM degrees average much higher salaries than arts degrees.

Sure, but "STEM" is a pretty meaningless categorization. Math is not the same as chemistry is not the same as nuclear engineering. Someone who earns a degree in one of these fields is very much not interchangeable with someone who earns a degree in a different STEM field, and the pay can vary pretty wildly between them. The average being high across the "STEM" categorization says something about many of the fields in that group, but it absolutely does not mean that every one of those degrees has a similar likelihood of being a ticket to an early retirement.

A friend who studied physics explained to me once that an undergraduate degree in physics is pretty limiting. You're qualified to be a high school physics teacher (not exactly a lucrative career), or a lab assistant washing glassware or something (also doesn't pay well). You can maybe talk your way into an entry-level job in software or engineering (which do pay well), but your chances of getting the job and being prepared for it would be better with a different degree. In essence, if you don't want to be a high school teacher or stick it out through the PhD to become a Real Scientist, you should probably pick something else to study.

+1

Engineering/software folks dramatically impact the "STEM" degree compensation.

[Gronnie]

If this goes through and they don't go back many years and give credits to those who paid off their loans like responsible citizens (my wife and I being among them) I'll be pretty pissed. Better yet, just give EVERYONE some money.

[Ecky]

I'm down to only $100,000 of loans left to pay off. I might be able to afford to keep my head above water if I had one kid, by the time I'm 35. Being able to refinance some of the public loans I had down from ~15% interest helped early on. I'll take any easement I can get.

Wow! In the last couple decades I thought the federal student loan rates only went up to 7.9% (grad plus which usually went down to 7.65 after auto-debit) or 6.8% for undergrad.

Highest I could find historically for federal student loans was 14% SLS loans (predecessor to federal PLUS) made between 10/1/1981-10/30/1982.  I would hope that all of those student loans from the 80s are paid off.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/historical-federal-student-interest-rates-and-fees

@Ecky what kind of student loans did you have?

Apologies, I posted some misinformation here. Looking back on them, the high interest rate loans were Sallie Mae Smart Option, which were private loans, I had loans ranging from 12-15%

[ctuser1]

But the thing that I have most learned from this group is that tech jobs are incredibly awful, which is why they have to pay well. I would never recommend that anyone pursue a degree in that unless the truly do have a passion for, because it seems to be awful work.

You're the first person I have heard say that.

Programming and architecting a system requires an incredible amount of creativity. It requires an awful amount of initial mental investment to become good at it. That is true for anyone - the teen hacker who coded from his teens and the adult learner who learned coding in her 20's and 30's. I should know because I was the former and my DW is the later. Once you are over the *extremely steep* learning curve, programming is extremely rewarding.

The above does not mean you can't get stuck with mind-numbing "process" jobs in tech, or that you won't have to deal with political bs. But that is true for any job. With a tech job, the core part of the job itself is very rewarding for almost anyone who is good enough to get a job in a decent paying organization and keep it!

Yes, if you can't get over the "extremely steep" learning curve, and still try to survive in tech, then your life will suck. The tell generally is someone who has learned to debug, but can't build a new, reasonably complex system from ground up on his/her own given the appropriate amount of time. I have even worked with some of them. They don't tend to last very long at a single place and their resumes tend to start showing the pattern. When presented with a resume showing this kind of a pattern, I generally tell HR to decline the candidate without even interviewing him.

[KarefulKactus15]

If this goes through and they don't go back many years and give credits to those who paid off their loans like responsible citizens (my wife and I being among them) I'll be pretty pissed. Better yet, just give EVERYONE some money.

This.  I and some family members made the choice that we couldn't afford 4 year and did a 2 year in demand degree instead and still worked while in school above full time to pay for it.

The tax payers shouldn't be required to bail others out.   

To make it real fun, just over night remove the bankruptcy clause and make student loans bankruptable.  - everything else falls in line.  (There are issues, but my point is, the fundamental issue needs to be fixed before we consider bailing out anyone)

[Alternatepriorities]

If this goes through and they don't go back many years and give credits to those who paid off their loans like responsible citizens (my wife and I being among them) I'll be pretty pissed. Better yet, just give EVERYONE some money.

This.  I and some family members made the choice that we couldn't afford 4 year and did a 2 year in demand degree instead and still worked while in school above full time to pay for it.

The tax payers shouldn't be required to bail others out.   

To make it real fun, just over night remove the bankruptcy clause and make student loans bankruptable.  - everything else falls in line.  (There are issues, but my point is, the fundamental issue needs to be fixed before we consider bailing out anyone)

This is the right way to fix the student loan problem. We have a long standing well tested system for how people who borrow too much can be given another chance at life that we KNOW works reasonably well. We have no idea what king of animosity it will create to arbitrarily pick winners and losers in a forgiveness program. I expect it will be another wedge issue dividing those who are helped and those who are not. How could it not infuriate the carpenter framing a house in the dead of winter or the mechanic covered in oil to hear their neighbor who partied through college just got a free $10k? 

[Log]

As someone approaching graduation with a big pile of student loans, I'm not really in support. If it happens I'll certainly be grateful for the personal benefit I'll receive, but it's a terribly inefficient transfer. Tons of people living in abject poverty have no student loans, tons of people with student loans are quite wealthy. And it sets a terrible precedent if loans are forgiven but the cost going forward is not addressed. There should be more stimulus payments, which people like me can certainly use to pay off our loans faster. And public colleges and universities should be subsidized to be tuition-free.

Addressing currently outstanding loans and then burying the next generation of students under the same burden is a complete disaster waiting to happen. Folding some loan forgiveness into a bill that also eliminates tuition could be reasonable, but that can't be accomplished in executive order, and it's still spending a ton of money that doesn't benefit huge swaths of people living in poverty.

[charis]

As someone approaching graduation with a big pile of student loans, I'm not really in support. If it happens I'll certainly be grateful for the personal benefit I'll receive, but it's a terribly inefficient transfer. Tons of people living in abject poverty have no student loans, tons of people with student loans are quite wealthy. And it sets a terrible precedent if loans are forgiven but the cost going forward is not addressed. There should be more stimulus payments, which people like me can certainly use to pay off our loans faster. And public colleges and universities should be subsidized to be tuition-free.

Addressing currently outstanding loans and then burying the next generation of students under the same burden is a complete disaster waiting to happen. Folding some loan forgiveness into a bill that also eliminates tuition could be reasonable, but that can't be accomplished in executive order, and it's still spending a ton of money that doesn't benefit huge swaths of people living in poverty.

Obviously other aspects of college costs need to be addressed, but objective of student loan forgiveness is not to help people in abject poverty. It's mostly aimed at helping the middle class (which in turn stimulates the economy). There's no reason why every program needs to address abject poverty.

[GuitarStv]

It’s the “science” part that is misleading, IMO - a 4 year science degree rarely positions you for a well paid entry level job.

But the thing that I have most learned from this group is that tech jobs are incredibly awful, which is why they have to pay well. I would never recommend that anyone pursue a degree in that unless the truly do have a passion for, because it seems to be awful work.

I think it’s way better to make $40k at work you enjoy than $80k at something that is constantly described as “soul sucking”.

I'm in general agreement* with everything you're writing here . . . and still think my idea stands.

Degrees should cost something that reflects what people who earn the degrees will be able to make over their careers.  If there are specific underperforming science degrees then they should cost less too!  But yes, way better to work a job you enjoy and make 40k than do something you hate for 80k.  My argument is that the cost of education barrier to the 40k job should be reduced.  Is this controversial somehow?



*Not entirely in agreement that tech jobs are awful - although some certainly can be.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Moral arguments are pointless in this situation. For every sad story about someone who was pressured by their high school counselor or parents to go to college despite cost or who was 18 and just didn't know better or whatever, you have a story of someone who worked hard to get the scholarships to pay for all or most of it or who worked their butt off to pay it down afterward or whatever (I mean, even if your parents paid for it, they likely had to put in some hard work to get their money).

Moral arguments aren't going to work because you're going to believe what you believe in terms of what's fair or not in this situation, and it's likely that that's going to be based on your own experiences in regards to college. We're going to argue around in circles and no one is ever going to be convinced. So again, pointless.

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

[ender]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

+100 this is what I don't really understand about the whole thing.

[Sugaree]

Everything I've read says that STEM degrees average much higher salaries than arts degrees.

Sure, but "STEM" is a pretty meaningless categorization. Math is not the same as chemistry is not the same as nuclear engineering. Someone who earns a degree in one of these fields is very much not interchangeable with someone who earns a degree in a different STEM field, and the pay can vary pretty wildly between them. The average being high across the "STEM" categorization says something about many of the fields in that group, but it absolutely does not mean that every one of those degrees has a similar likelihood of being a ticket to an early retirement.

A friend who studied physics explained to me once that an undergraduate degree in physics is pretty limiting. You're qualified to be a high school physics teacher (not exactly a lucrative career), or a lab assistant washing glassware or something (also doesn't pay well). You can maybe talk your way into an entry-level job in software or engineering (which do pay well), but your chances of getting the job and being prepared for it would be better with a different degree. In essence, if you don't want to be a high school teacher or stick it out through the PhD to become a Real Scientist, you should probably pick something else to study.

Can confirm.  My undergrad marine biology degree wasn't a great choice.  But it was fun and I'm probably more well-rounded for it.  The computer science degree that I got later on is what pays the bills.  Luckily, I managed to get out both times without loans.

[simonsez]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

+100 this is what I don't really understand about the whole thing.

I agree, with the 8 month extension that was recently passed, that is a year and a half of zero required payments and zero accrued interest.  That is huge!  Whether you're having a hard time making ends meet during the pandemic or doing alright but using the time to get ahead and make principal-only payments, that is a major boon to the student loan holder group - of which I've been a member for too long.  I'm hopeful with this extension, and any other extensions there may be in future, that there is no student loan forgiveness and that any forgiveness would come in the form of something accessible to a much larger group of Americans (i.e. unrelated to student loan debt) coupled with some systematic changes for future loans/tuition costs.

[joe189man]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

i like a lot of this, focusing on the intent of the student loan payoff is important, basically stimulating the economy allowing more spending on things and not spending on student loans, at least for the consumer sucker.

I also think and have previously stated that we have to not alienate those who didnt go to college, as this is a handout to a minority of USA citizens who comparatively likely dont need it.

a UBI and revamp of the college education system would likely be a better option. UBI gets everyone spending, but thats another can of worms that may or may not be a good idea.

Now if only Biden would read this post before making a decision
 
+100 this is what I don't really understand about the whole thing.

[maisymouser]

https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/25/undercounting-covid-19-deaths-greatest-in-pro-trump-areas-analysis-shows/

Very interesting analysis discussing undercounting of excess deaths (comparing Urban to Mixed to Rural areas).

Their conclusion? If you don't look for Covid deaths, you won't find any!

I think this was posted in the wrong thread? lol still interesting though...

[Ecky]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

My coworkers were discussing this morning - the state I live in had more deaths from drug overdoses last year than from Covid - a massive spike in overdose deaths from the previous year. My supervisor commented, "what did you think was going to happen when you gave everyone $1200 and told them to stay home from work?"

I don't doubt part of it is from despair, but perhaps it's worth considering the adage about learning to fish.

[Car Jack]

I like the idea of forgiving all of the interest and setting future interest at zero.

For years, the government took excessive interest for loans.  My son's Stafford loans are all in the 6% range.  On top of that, they came with a 1.04% up front "load" that most people don't realize.

[Log]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

My coworkers were discussing this morning - the state I live in had more deaths from drug overdoses last year than from Covid - a massive spike in overdose deaths from the previous year. My supervisor commented, "what did you think was going to happen when you gave everyone $1200 and told them to stay home from work?"

I don't doubt part of it is from despair, but perhaps it's worth considering the adage about learning to fish.

I think this is a really off-the-mark and insensitive take. People don't overdose on opioids because they're irresponsible and partying too hard. Opioid overdoses are called "deaths of despair" for a reason. People turn to addictive behaviors, including addictive drugs, out of depression. The same situation that led to the government giving out stimulus checks has ruined countless peoples lives. Many who were already struggling with depression lost social connections and support networks they needed to keep their lives together. People turn to opioids when they feel their life is so terrible that their best and most rational option is just to numb themselves out, to escape. If we want to deal with the opioid epidemic, we need to be asking what's so terrible that these people are escaping from?

Sure, many of these people could, from an outside perspective, take actions to reduce their suffering. Those things are easier said than done when you're talking about someone in a deep depression.

[Morning Glory]

The only arguments that matter are arguments about how it will work to stimulate the economy/help citizens that are in need or whatever in comparison to other ways the money could be spent. There is 1.6 trillion dollars in student loan debt. We are discussing something where the U.S. government would be poised to spend 1.6 trillion dollars or maybe a trillion if you forgive $50k or 400 million if it's $10k - wild guesses, but you get the point. Why is it better to spend the money on this than a stimulus being given to every 18 year old and older citizen? Or maybe a stimulus for every 18 year old and up citizen with a household income of $100k or less or $50k or less or whatever? Forgiving student loans would benefit people who need it and a lot who either don't or who could, if they chose, prioritize paying it off with sacrifices that they are choosing not to make (or are in the process of making but haven't finished). This is a targeted benefit  that will help people who tend to have better jobs than people who are not in this category. Why is this particular thing the best use money?

My coworkers were discussing this morning - the state I live in had more deaths from drug overdoses last year than from Covid - a massive spike in overdose deaths from the previous year. My supervisor commented, "what did you think was going to happen when you gave everyone $1200 and told them to stay home from work?"

I don't doubt part of it is from despair, but perhaps it's worth considering the adage about learning to fish.

I think this is a really off-the-mark and insensitive take. People don't overdose on opioids because they're irresponsible and partying too hard. Opioid overdoses are called "deaths of despair" for a reason. People turn to addictive behaviors, including addictive drugs, out of depression. The same situation that led to the government giving out stimulus checks has ruined countless peoples lives. Many who were already struggling with depression lost social connections and support networks they needed to keep their lives together. People turn to opioids when they feel their life is so terrible that their best and most rational option is just to numb themselves out, to escape. If we want to deal with the opioid epidemic, we need to be asking what's so terrible that these people are escaping from?

Sure, many of these people could, from an outside perspective, take actions to reduce their suffering. Those things are easier said than done when you're talking about someone in a deep depression.

Thank you Log!!!!  The opioid problem was bad to begin with, due to numerous causes.

Now you have EMS and hospitals overwhelmed with Covid, fewer social connections to notice if someone is off the wagon, increased loneliness and despair (more likely to die of overdose if alone while using), closure of support services, less focus on education regarding narcan (Covid taking up all the public service announcements), etc. It's a shit storm.

[DadJokes]

College students do not have to go to private schools, wear Canada Goose parkas, carry iPhone 11s, eat sushi for lunch and have Starbucks three times a day. You don't need to take out ridiculous loans if you work in the summer, live frugally and attend a state school and/or community college or a trade school. A loan forgiveness program would simply mean that the smarter more mustachian students are paying for both their own modest loans as well as (through taxes) the extravagant college degrees and lifestyles of others.

I just want to chime in here... I worked at least 2 jobs at a time (and often more) throughout college, 12-30 hours per week, and summer service industry jobs, all for $7.25-$10/hr, and I worked as an RA for room and board for two years, AND I finished my degree a year early. I went to a public state school - the best one in my state, but not the most expensive. I ate beans and rice and bought the bar soap off the bottom shelf. I didn't go out to bars or restaurants, ever. No spring break trips. Definitely no Canada Goose (I remember when I starting seeing those, wtf?) My mom got me a new coat at Costco once, that was nice. I still finished undergrad $50K in the hole. My various jobs barely covered the costs of my books and $200 "access codes" so I could do my homework each semester.

I don't know how you managed that. My wife graduated in 2014 with only ~$15k in debt, simply because she wasn't able to work during her last year due to having to do student teaching as part of her degree.

[freedomfightergal]

 My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

[maisymouser]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

Umm, absolutely not. Not a way to approach the very real problem of gender pay inequity. For so many reasons. I hope you are joking.

[KarefulKactus15]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

Umm, absolutely not. Not a way to approach the very real problem of gender pay inequity. For so many reasons. I hope you are joking.

Yeah it would be weird to do it by women.  I might feel like a woman till  I finish school.   Similar to taxes and other models, based on income would be more fair. 

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

What an odd statement to make. I can tell you realize it was odd or at least controversial because you reinforced it with an all caps "FACT"

Yes, women do make less than men, but adding FACT at the end of a factual statement doesn't make your proposition a good idea just because of a factual statement you feel is related to it.

Why is what you said any different than me saying, "Men should pay less than women because they live shorter lives and therefore they have fewer years to make money off of their degree."? Both men living fewer years and women making less are facts, neither has anything to do with the cost of college education, and both reflect complicated issues outside of the college framework that it makes little sense to address with college costs....

[charis]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

What an odd statement to make. I can tell you realize it was odd or at least controversial because you reinforced it with an all caps "FACT"

Yes, women do make less than men, but adding FACT at the end of a factual statement doesn't make your proposition a good idea just because of a factual statement you feel is related to it.

Why is what you said any different than me saying, "Men should pay less than women because they live shorter lives and therefore they have fewer years to make money off of their degree."? Both men living fewer years and women making less are facts, neither has anything to do with the cost of college education, and both reflect complicated issues outside of the college framework that it makes little sense to address with college costs....

Also, it would likely run afoul of the constitution and, even if implemented, have the opposite of the intended effect by depressing the value of women's education and therefore earning potential. 

[RWD]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

I saw that and was relieved. 50K would be a hard sell overall, and with Biden not supporting it, I would think it's very unlikely to happen.

[freedomfightergal]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

What an odd statement to make. I can tell you realize it was odd or at least controversial because you reinforced it with an all caps "FACT"

Yes, women do make less than men, but adding FACT at the end of a factual statement doesn't make your proposition a good idea just because of a factual statement you feel is related to it.

Why is what you said any different than me saying, "Men should pay less than women because they live shorter lives and therefore they have fewer years to make money off of their degree."? Both men living fewer years and women making less are facts, neither has anything to do with the cost of college education, and both reflect complicated issues outside of the college framework that it makes little sense to address with college costs....

I guess you might find it odd if you're a man.  It's just infuriating when you're a women.  Paying the same for education to get paid less for the same work,  less opportunities for advancement & don't get me started on the pink taxes.   

[freedomfightergal]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

What an odd statement to make. I can tell you realize it was odd or at least controversial because you reinforced it with an all caps "FACT"

Yes, women do make less than men, but adding FACT at the end of a factual statement doesn't make your proposition a good idea just because of a factual statement you feel is related to it.

Why is what you said any different than me saying, "Men should pay less than women because they live shorter lives and therefore they have fewer years to make money off of their degree."? Both men living fewer years and women making less are facts, neither has anything to do with the cost of college education, and both reflect complicated issues outside of the college framework that it makes little sense to address with college costs....

Also, it would likely run afoul of the constitution and, even if implemented, have the opposite of the intended effect by depressing the value of women's education and therefore earning potential.

Paying women less for the same work should be unconstitutional

[simonsez]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Thanks for linking.

I like the proposal of free community college.

[By the River]

Maybe I'm super uneducated - but in my personal experience I have not seen one example of women making less for the same work. Male vs female in the exact same role with the exact same performance and position at the same company, I've never seen a woman make less apples to apples.

Oh it happens.  Here's one example https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7783573/Joe-Biden-paid-female-Senate-staffers-men-DECADES-analysis-finds.html  but at least this employer was getting better more recently

[simonsez]

I don't know exactly what a senate staffer does but is it not possible the two groups were performing different levels of task requiring different skill sets and those skills are compensates at different levels?

Sorry @Kroaler , but can you take this topic elsewhere?

I don't think a thread dedicated to Joe Biden's student loan forgiveness or lack thereof is the proper setting to even start to get into the complexities of the very real pay gap that still exists in many industries for a host of reasons explained and unexplained.

[FrugalToque]

I don't know exactly what a senate staffer does but is it not possible the two groups were performing different levels of task requiring different skill sets and those skills are compensates at different levels?

Yeah, let's take this discussion elsewhere and keep this on topic.
And believe me, I'd love to talk this up, as one white man to another, but this isn't the place.

Thanks.
Toque.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

My 2 cents.

I'm generally in favor of Loan forgiveness/let it be included in bankruptcy, but I worry it doesn't fix the fundamental problem & it'll be the same again the following years.

My thoughts

The For Profit Colleges need to be held accountable - get your money back if you can't get a job in your field in a few years or something.

Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT

Loans shouldn't be more than mortgage rates - gouging kids is unacceptable

kids who worked & were immensely frugal to avoid huge college debt should get some tax benefits too ie make college tuition tax deductible in the future.

My experience with college tuition payments in Australia I think are a good model.  I was able to defer my tuition until after I finished college and it was paid via taxes only after I reached a salary of $50k a year.   It wasn't astronomically high & didn't hurt me because it could be spread out over many years via taxes without too much burden.

In addition to above I think we have an event making an immediate difference arguable.  A wipe of a lot of this debt would boost the economy for the next fews years as these young adults can be free to consume more instead of this crazy debt.

What an odd statement to make. I can tell you realize it was odd or at least controversial because you reinforced it with an all caps "FACT"

Yes, women do make less than men, but adding FACT at the end of a factual statement doesn't make your proposition a good idea just because of a factual statement you feel is related to it.

Why is what you said any different than me saying, "Men should pay less than women because they live shorter lives and therefore they have fewer years to make money off of their degree."? Both men living fewer years and women making less are facts, neither has anything to do with the cost of college education, and both reflect complicated issues outside of the college framework that it makes little sense to address with college costs....

I guess you might find it odd if you're a man.  It's just infuriating when you're a women.  Paying the same for education to get paid less for the same work,  less opportunities for advancement & don't get me started on the pink taxes.

Um....no. I didn't say that women getting paid more was an odd statement. I said that your statement was an odd statement, and in its entirety, it is an odd statement- "Women should pay less, since they earn less - FACT." Women earning less is not the part that is odd. The part that is odd is that you think women, in general, earning less should mean that college should cost less for them for some reason. Judging from the rest of what you said, this is an issue you are clearly passionate about, which is fine. What you didn't do in your original post or in your follow up was explain why women earning less means that colleges should charge less. There are quite a few legitimate grievances out there. The presence of a legitimate grievance doesn't mean that any particular assigned way of addressing the grievance is a good idea or makes sense. As I mentioned before, I'm not denying women are paid less, but it's a complex issue, certainly not caused by colleges. I find it odd and a bad idea to try to address it by making colleges charge women less.

[American GenX]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Yeah, I had heard her supported a lower amount before.  But that's still $10,000 too much.  People need to learn to take responsibilities for their own choices.  There's plenty of time left for people to pay back their own student loans without expecting other taxpayers to pay for them.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Yeah, I had heard her supported a lower amount before.  But that's still $10,000 too much.  People need to learn to take responsibilities for their own choices.  There's plenty of time left for people to pay back their own student loans without expecting other taxpayers to pay for them.

I'm not super excited about the 10k; that's for sure. I am happy it's less than 50k, and as an overarching thing, I'm happy that Biden's actually stood up against the more progressive factions. I had assumed he would go along with pretty much whatever the more progressive voices told him to do.

[Paul der Krake]

It's not even in the draft stimulus bill yet... For now the 10k is pure vaporware with a couple high profile cheerleaders.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

It's not even in the draft stimulus bill yet... For now the 10k is pure vaporware with a couple high profile cheerleaders.

So, I'm assuming doing it as an executive order is completely off the table? I had heard that bandied about some in the primaries at least.