Phone screener: when the interviewer asks why you're looking to leave?

[kenner]

Honestly, you probably are coming across as pretty desperate which means you've already sabotaged a lot of whatever negotiating strength you have.

Pretty much everything you said here comes across as lacking confidence. Which is not the right impression you want to give in an interview process.

I feel like I came off probably more "desperate" in the initial talk with the recruiter. The discussion I had with the director went better though IMO - I felt much more confident in that talk. But yea, it doesn't mean that everything I said came across that way too. I could be misrepresenting exactly what I said and in what context too (so it may or may not have come off as 'lacking confidence' with the director). Either way, next up are the technical interview rounds so hopefully those will go OK. And if I get an offer, we'll see what it comes in at and I'll take it from there.

Bottom line is that I suck at interviewing and negotiation. It seems like to really get good at it you have 'practice' a lot and do as many of them as you can (beyond reading about the psychology, tactics and how-tos)... as with many other things.

These are very learnable skills and don't actually take a ton of practice if you remove the internal emotional barriers holding you back.

Almost everyone is a good negotiator, the skills are ridiculously obvious and come naturally to almost anyone. The difficulty is in learning to feel entitled to use those skills.

Think of it this way, if someone sought you out to offer you a job you really didn't need and were way too.qualified for and they weren't offering you a ton of money, do you think you would have a hard time projecting your value as being higher than what they are proposing?

The reason for reading about the skills and practicing is to have structures strategies that can mimic that kind of confidence, that camouflage whatever insecurity you feel in the moment. That's where a simple script and specific wording is so useful, it gets you out of your own way.

It doesn't take much practice, it just takes the courage to try it. When it works, it becomes a self reinforcing habit, and then eventually the confidence behind it becomes genuine.

So basically would following the script (outside my own words) be pretty good to go with (closely based off the Fearless template)?:
"After carefully reviewing the requirements and expectations of the position, and upon speaking with XXXX and the others on the team, I believe I will be an excellent match for this position and will add significant value immediately upon start. Just in the past few conversations I've had, I feel like I already have a good understanding of the product and am excited to contribute to improving and making it better, as well as the processes to get there. My technical skillset, experience, background and soft skills being able to comfortably work and collaborate across multiple teams and with multiple individuals all align very well with regard to this role and the expectations, and I know I will make a positive impact as soon as I start.

X presented an offer of $XXX but I would feel more comfortable if we could settle at $XXXXX. I believe this amount reflects the significance and expectation of this position and what I will bring to the table as far my experience and qualifications.

Thank you and I look forward to speaking with you again."

Is there a certain % I should target, as a rule of thumb? Like trying to work upwards to 20-30% over current salary? I basically disclosed a ballpark figure which is just at or slightly more than what I currently make with a YOY bonus. Again, stupid of me to throw that number out there like that and I need to learn to take control of myself and refrain from that to avoid it happening again (following the script, as you pointed out, seems to be the best idea in that case).

I can't answer a lot of this for you, there are no rules of thumb, there's your value and how well you market yourself as having that value. In my industry you can't negotiate salary

Basic advice though? The more words you use, the less authoritative and confident you sound.

Something like
"I'm very excited for this potential role, now that I fully understand the responsibilities, I propose $X as an appropriate salary given my skillset."

The more you feel the need to explain yourself, the more you sound like you are justifying yourself, which betrays insecurity in your position.

Confident people don't give long explanations for why they hold their positions, because they don't feel they have to. In fact, they simply don't bother explaining anything unless they have to, because in their mind, it's a given that their position is correct and likely to be agreed with by others.

If I suggest ordering pizza, I don't have explain why I like pizza and why I think everyone else will enjoy pizza. I already feel very confident that everyone knows why I like pizza AND that most people will agree with my reasoning. I'm very, very confident suggesting pizza, so I don't need to say anything more than "we should order pizza".

Try to always ask yourself "what would I say if I was supremely confident?" You won't always generate the correct thing to say, but it will help you identify how insecurity and passivity are seeping into your speech.

Good points on all fronts. This has become a good lesson and lessons learned for everything else in addition to job negotiations.

Another phrase that's sometimes useful (and also sometimes accurate)--"After fully reviewing the role/responsibilities as well as the other benefits offered by XYZ," and then continuing.

Because you should also be looking at vacation/time off, medical benefits since you seem to be in the US, retirement, bonus structure, and any other benefits the new company is offering and making sure those align too.  Granted that when you're coming from a position of 'get out, get out now' they may not be quite as relevant as they would with a less stressed move, but you shouldn't be going in blind, either.

[jeromedawg]

Honestly, you probably are coming across as pretty desperate which means you've already sabotaged a lot of whatever negotiating strength you have.

Pretty much everything you said here comes across as lacking confidence. Which is not the right impression you want to give in an interview process.

I feel like I came off probably more "desperate" in the initial talk with the recruiter. The discussion I had with the director went better though IMO - I felt much more confident in that talk. But yea, it doesn't mean that everything I said came across that way too. I could be misrepresenting exactly what I said and in what context too (so it may or may not have come off as 'lacking confidence' with the director). Either way, next up are the technical interview rounds so hopefully those will go OK. And if I get an offer, we'll see what it comes in at and I'll take it from there.

Bottom line is that I suck at interviewing and negotiation. It seems like to really get good at it you have 'practice' a lot and do as many of them as you can (beyond reading about the psychology, tactics and how-tos)... as with many other things.

These are very learnable skills and don't actually take a ton of practice if you remove the internal emotional barriers holding you back.

Almost everyone is a good negotiator, the skills are ridiculously obvious and come naturally to almost anyone. The difficulty is in learning to feel entitled to use those skills.

Think of it this way, if someone sought you out to offer you a job you really didn't need and were way too.qualified for and they weren't offering you a ton of money, do you think you would have a hard time projecting your value as being higher than what they are proposing?

The reason for reading about the skills and practicing is to have structures strategies that can mimic that kind of confidence, that camouflage whatever insecurity you feel in the moment. That's where a simple script and specific wording is so useful, it gets you out of your own way.

It doesn't take much practice, it just takes the courage to try it. When it works, it becomes a self reinforcing habit, and then eventually the confidence behind it becomes genuine.

So basically would following the script (outside my own words) be pretty good to go with (closely based off the Fearless template)?:
"After carefully reviewing the requirements and expectations of the position, and upon speaking with XXXX and the others on the team, I believe I will be an excellent match for this position and will add significant value immediately upon start. Just in the past few conversations I've had, I feel like I already have a good understanding of the product and am excited to contribute to improving and making it better, as well as the processes to get there. My technical skillset, experience, background and soft skills being able to comfortably work and collaborate across multiple teams and with multiple individuals all align very well with regard to this role and the expectations, and I know I will make a positive impact as soon as I start.

X presented an offer of $XXX but I would feel more comfortable if we could settle at $XXXXX. I believe this amount reflects the significance and expectation of this position and what I will bring to the table as far my experience and qualifications.

Thank you and I look forward to speaking with you again."

Is there a certain % I should target, as a rule of thumb? Like trying to work upwards to 20-30% over current salary? I basically disclosed a ballpark figure which is just at or slightly more than what I currently make with a YOY bonus. Again, stupid of me to throw that number out there like that and I need to learn to take control of myself and refrain from that to avoid it happening again (following the script, as you pointed out, seems to be the best idea in that case).

I can't answer a lot of this for you, there are no rules of thumb, there's your value and how well you market yourself as having that value. In my industry you can't negotiate salary

Basic advice though? The more words you use, the less authoritative and confident you sound.

Something like
"I'm very excited for this potential role, now that I fully understand the responsibilities, I propose $X as an appropriate salary given my skillset."

The more you feel the need to explain yourself, the more you sound like you are justifying yourself, which betrays insecurity in your position.

Confident people don't give long explanations for why they hold their positions, because they don't feel they have to. In fact, they simply don't bother explaining anything unless they have to, because in their mind, it's a given that their position is correct and likely to be agreed with by others.

If I suggest ordering pizza, I don't have explain why I like pizza and why I think everyone else will enjoy pizza. I already feel very confident that everyone knows why I like pizza AND that most people will agree with my reasoning. I'm very, very confident suggesting pizza, so I don't need to say anything more than "we should order pizza".

Try to always ask yourself "what would I say if I was supremely confident?" You won't always generate the correct thing to say, but it will help you identify how insecurity and passivity are seeping into your speech.

Good points on all fronts. This has become a good lesson and lessons learned for everything else in addition to job negotiations.

Another phrase that's sometimes useful (and also sometimes accurate)--"After fully reviewing the role/responsibilities as well as the other benefits offered by XYZ," and then continuing.

Because you should also be looking at vacation/time off, medical benefits since you seem to be in the US, retirement, bonus structure, and any other benefits the new company is offering and making sure those align too.  Granted that when you're coming from a position of 'get out, get out now' they may not be quite as relevant as they would with a less stressed move, but you shouldn't be going in blind, either.

Thanks for the reminder on benefits - that is definitely something to take into consideration. I was wanting to ask about PTO and all that but also wanted to respect the director's time since we had already gone over by 5-10 minutes at that point. That's something I'll circle back to finding out though assuming I get to the next round of interviews and pass them. Still haven't heard anything back but I ended up just sending an email back to the recruiter thanking him for setting everything up and mentioning that the last thing the director told me was that he wanted to setup interviews with other engineers, and inquired about that and to let me know the next steps.

As a side: I got an "email screener" from another recruiter from a different company (medical technology) asking me a series of question, including what my compensation requirement is. This time I answered using the template from Fearless - “I want this move to be a big step forward for me in terms of both responsibility and compensation.” - replacing a couple of words for others so it isn't as cookie-cutter ;)
Will see what the response is that comes back. This is actually a very interesting/intriguing process because potentially now, if this new opportunity continues to develop and I actually get so far as to get offers from both places, I'll be able to see the difference *first-hand* that disclosing my salary requirement will have made. But I'm also not trying to get too far ahead of myself either.

[Gronnie]

If you are mostly interviewing at non-tech companies or small companies there might not be much on there, but always check levels.fyi to see what's there.

[jeromedawg]

If you are mostly interviewing at non-tech companies or small companies there might not be much on there, but always check levels.fyi to see what's there.

Might not be much on there? Referring to? Glassdoor?

[jeromedawg]

Just heard back from company #2 - they actually replied back informing me what the range is (which turns out to be the same number I gave company #1 lol) + info about bonuses and benefits. The benefits are actually quite good...I think possibly better than company #1. It's hard to beat the PTO structure I have with my current company but that's also after having been here for 5+ years and it's also a sinking ship here so feeling great about the benefits is a moot point LOL

That said, I did want to find out about company #2s remote work policy and am initially interested but of course the starting range they gave me is lower than I'd like. They asked me if I'm still interested - so in cases where you don't disclose and then the company actually discloses their salary band/range to you up front like this but it's lower than you were hoping, how do you guys navigate? Do you tell them that you're interested and ask all other questions about benefits, etc but not bring the topic of salary back up again until you get further and actually get an offer? Or do I say something like this up front?:

"Thanks for the response and information about salary and benefits. I am definitely interested in moving forward and, regarding salary terms, we can discuss that number further as we move forward with interviews if we find that I am a right fit for the role."

Or

"Thanks for the information! I am definitely open and interested in the role. If, after the interview process, we find this to be a good fit for both sides, I would like to revisit the topic of salary and total package compensation."

[Metalcat]

Well first, I wouldn't pose your preferences as questions.

I would say what salary I am aiming for if their range is too low for me to seriously consider the offer, otherwise, there's no point in wasting either side's time.

As for remote, I also wouldn't ask about that, I would just specify that remote is a priority for me.

If it's a matter where I could be sweet talked into taking their too low salary as long as I had sweeteners like excellent benefits, remote work, or whatever else, then again, I wouldn't ask, I would just indicate that those sweeteners could compensate for a lower salary.

I feel like you first need to really hammer out what it is that you want to achieve with these.negotiations and then just try to be direct about what it is that you want.

Negotiating isn't as much about being strategic and saying specific things as it is about finding a way to operate from a position of confidence.

Again, how would a supremely qualified, rock star candidate express their desire to work remote?
Would they ask if the environment was "remote friendly?"
No, they would come out and say "the ability to work remotely is a major priority to me, so I would strongly factor that into my decision between competing offers"

But you need to assess how important remote work is to you, compared to benefits, vacation time, salary, etc. You need to know which things to push for so that you communicate clearly what you really want.

If you just suggest that you are interested in remote work, and that their stated salary is lower than your minimum, you haven't made it at all clear how important remote work is, and if it will impact your salary demand.

So figure out what you want and then tell them how to win you over and then see if they are willing to give it to you. Just flat out, directly communicate what it would take to get you to work for them. Don't make them guess based on questions you ask, give them the exact recipe.

[jeromedawg]

Well first, I wouldn't pose your preferences as questions.

I would say what salary I am aiming for if their range is too low for me to seriously consider the offer, otherwise, there's no point in wasting either side's time.

As for remote, I also wouldn't ask about that, I would just specify that remote is a priority for me.

If it's a matter where I could be sweet talked into taking their too low salary as long as I had sweeteners like excellent benefits, remote work, or whatever else, then again, I wouldn't ask, I would just indicate that those sweeteners could compensate for a lower salary.

I feel like you first need to really hammer out what it is that you want to achieve with these.negotiations and then just try to be direct about what it is that you want.

Negotiating isn't as much about being strategic and saying specific things as it is about finding a way to operate from a position of confidence.

Again, how would a supremely qualified, rock star candidate express their desire to work remote?
Would they ask if the environment was "remote friendly?"
No, they would come out and say "the ability to work remotely is a major priority to me, so I would strongly factor that into my decision between competing offers"

But you need to assess how important remote work is to you, compared to benefits, vacation time, salary, etc. You need to know which things to push for so that you communicate clearly what you really want.

If you just suggest that you are interested in remote work, and that their stated salary is lower than your minimum, you haven't made it at all clear how important remote work is, and if it will impact your salary demand.

So figure out what you want and then tell them how to win you over and then see if they are willing to give it to you. Just flat out, directly communicate what it would take to get you to work for them. Don't make them guess based on questions you ask, give them the exact recipe.

So if they have revealed their "budget" for this position at this point, you're saying it's now OK for me to respond with my "starting base range" number ("starting" to infer that there is additional room to move upwards from there in the latter stages of negotiation)? So something more along the lines of this:

"Thank you! For me to seriously consider a move like this, my starting base range would need to be $xxxx. Additionally, remote work is a high priority for me."

As it stands, the benefits seem pretty good - I don't know how much they can really 'flex' on those things outside of including more PTO?
Do people really dig into trying to negotiating a better medical/dental/vision plans, or things like a higher 401k match? Some of these things seem more 'set in stone' but I haven't really tried negotiating those either.


As a side: I think I've read or heard (don't recall where) that you want to avoid throwing around any numbers/ranges at all, and focus first on getting them to the point of "wanting you so badly that they'll do anything" during the interview process. And in this way, you'll now have the upper-hand now with negotiations. It seems there are varying approaches and tactics.

[former player]

If you gave me a number that's acceptable to you but then later on try to negotiate it upwards I'd need a good reason to agree and otherwise feel pretty pissed that you weren't telling the truth about what was acceptable to you.

For instance, if you said "I can work with the salary range you indicate depending on benefits and the availability of remote working but would also want to know about the potential for salary progression" then you are clearly indicating scope for negotiation - you could later say "the benefits are not matching up to my expectations so I would like to see uplift on the salary instead". 

The alternative is to say "I am looking for a higher initial salary to match the skills and experience I am bringing to the company".  That then gives the recruiter/company something to work with in increasing their offer.

Negotiation is about 1) making sure the other party knows what you want, 2) helping the other party to want to give you what you want ("this person is going to do a great job for us") and 3) supplying the other party with the reasons that make it easy for them to give you what you want ("the salary is a hard limit but we can add in other things to make it work" or "we need to go over the salary limit for this person but it's worth it").

You seem to be having some trouble working out what you are worth in salary terms.  I think you might look at it in a slightly different way: in three (or six, or twelve) months, am I going to be happy doing this job for this salary, or will I feel underpaid and resentful?  Because if the latter, it's not worth taking the job.  So ask for a salary that will make you feel that the job is worth it to you.  I think you've probably got a good idea of what that salary is.

[Metalcat]

Well first, I wouldn't pose your preferences as questions.

I would say what salary I am aiming for if their range is too low for me to seriously consider the offer, otherwise, there's no point in wasting either side's time.

As for remote, I also wouldn't ask about that, I would just specify that remote is a priority for me.

If it's a matter where I could be sweet talked into taking their too low salary as long as I had sweeteners like excellent benefits, remote work, or whatever else, then again, I wouldn't ask, I would just indicate that those sweeteners could compensate for a lower salary.

I feel like you first need to really hammer out what it is that you want to achieve with these.negotiations and then just try to be direct about what it is that you want.

Negotiating isn't as much about being strategic and saying specific things as it is about finding a way to operate from a position of confidence.

Again, how would a supremely qualified, rock star candidate express their desire to work remote?
Would they ask if the environment was "remote friendly?"
No, they would come out and say "the ability to work remotely is a major priority to me, so I would strongly factor that into my decision between competing offers"

But you need to assess how important remote work is to you, compared to benefits, vacation time, salary, etc. You need to know which things to push for so that you communicate clearly what you really want.

If you just suggest that you are interested in remote work, and that their stated salary is lower than your minimum, you haven't made it at all clear how important remote work is, and if it will impact your salary demand.

So figure out what you want and then tell them how to win you over and then see if they are willing to give it to you. Just flat out, directly communicate what it would take to get you to work for them. Don't make them guess based on questions you ask, give them the exact recipe.

So if they have revealed their "budget" for this position at this point, you're saying it's now OK for me to respond with my "starting base range" number ("starting" to infer that there is additional room to move upwards from there in the latter stages of negotiation)? So something more along the lines of this:

You really need to stop thinking in terms of whether or not something is "OK". Asking for a salary above what they've stated is perfectly fine, you might just not get the job. What's "OK" depends on YOU, not them.

"Thank you! For me to seriously consider a move like this, my starting base range would need to be $xxxx. Additionally, remote work is a high priority for me."

This doesn't at all explain what I was trying to say. You need to tell them how to win you over. What *would* make you take the job? Would their lower salary be acceptable as long as you could work remote, or is the salary the sticking point. That's why I said to know what you actually want.

If remote work would make their lower salary acceptable to you then I would say
"The low end of my salary expectation is $XYZ, but I could be persuaded closer to your number if I was able to work remotely."

If salary is really the sticking point and, say, you had another offer with the salary you wanted, I would say
"I have other higher offers. $XYZ is my minimum salary level. If you can come up to my minimum though, and give me the option to work remotely, then I would be very interested"


As it stands, the benefits seem pretty good - I don't know how much they can really 'flex' on those things outside of including more PTO?
Do people really dig into trying to negotiating a better medical/dental/vision plans, or things like a higher 401k match? Some of these things seem more 'set in stone' but I haven't really tried negotiating those either.

I don't know for your specific job, it depends on the employer. But for example, I negotiated that my vacation time would never need approval. I agreed to give at least 2 months notice for any time off, but that no one would be able to reject my request.

As a side: I think I've read or heard (don't recall where) that you want to avoid throwing around any numbers/ranges at all, and focus first on getting them to the point of "wanting you so badly that they'll do anything" during the interview process. And in this way, you'll now have the upper-hand now with negotiations. It seems there are varying approaches and tactics.

There are varying approaches but they will depend much more on you and what you are looking for than anything else. I really encourage you to think of it less in terms of tactics, because that's coming through in the things you are writing here.

Focus less on being "strategic" because it doesn't seem to be working for you. For you, specifically, I would really focus, as I've said already, on narrowing down your actual goals and practicing communicating them in a more conversational way.

The way you keep writing here is a combination of overly formal AND communicates lack of assuredness. You aren't clearly communicating what you want, or that you deserve it. It's making you sound both uptight and nervous. Not an ideal combo.

Also, you trying to approach this "strategically" is making you view your potential employers as some kind of enemy to be outwitted, when that's really not the case. If you are valuable to them, then this whole thing can be very friendly.

I've aided in tons of hiring negotiations, and the way I've done it has never been adversarial where each side is trying to be strategic against the other. It's always just been a frank and clear conversation about what can and can't be done, where the goal is for everyone to get their max value out of the exchange.

For some people the more adversarial approach works really well, but for you, it seems to be clearly messing up your vibe, so I would strongly recommend taking another approach.

Don't forget, this is first and foremost a conversation. A very specific type of conversation with very specific outcomes, but still just a conversation. Try and think of it that way and it might help you establish a more confident tone.

[jeromedawg]

Well first, I wouldn't pose your preferences as questions.

I would say what salary I am aiming for if their range is too low for me to seriously consider the offer, otherwise, there's no point in wasting either side's time.

As for remote, I also wouldn't ask about that, I would just specify that remote is a priority for me.

If it's a matter where I could be sweet talked into taking their too low salary as long as I had sweeteners like excellent benefits, remote work, or whatever else, then again, I wouldn't ask, I would just indicate that those sweeteners could compensate for a lower salary.

I feel like you first need to really hammer out what it is that you want to achieve with these.negotiations and then just try to be direct about what it is that you want.

Negotiating isn't as much about being strategic and saying specific things as it is about finding a way to operate from a position of confidence.

Again, how would a supremely qualified, rock star candidate express their desire to work remote?
Would they ask if the environment was "remote friendly?"
No, they would come out and say "the ability to work remotely is a major priority to me, so I would strongly factor that into my decision between competing offers"

But you need to assess how important remote work is to you, compared to benefits, vacation time, salary, etc. You need to know which things to push for so that you communicate clearly what you really want.

If you just suggest that you are interested in remote work, and that their stated salary is lower than your minimum, you haven't made it at all clear how important remote work is, and if it will impact your salary demand.

So figure out what you want and then tell them how to win you over and then see if they are willing to give it to you. Just flat out, directly communicate what it would take to get you to work for them. Don't make them guess based on questions you ask, give them the exact recipe.

So if they have revealed their "budget" for this position at this point, you're saying it's now OK for me to respond with my "starting base range" number ("starting" to infer that there is additional room to move upwards from there in the latter stages of negotiation)? So something more along the lines of this:

You really need to stop thinking in terms of whether or not something is "OK". Asking for a salary above what they've stated is perfectly fine, you might just not get the job. What's "OK" depends on YOU, not them.

"Thank you! For me to seriously consider a move like this, my starting base range would need to be $xxxx. Additionally, remote work is a high priority for me."

This doesn't at all explain what I was trying to say. You need to tell them how to win you over. What *would* make you take the job? Would their lower salary be acceptable as long as you could work remote, or is the salary the sticking point. That's why I said to know what you actually want.

If remote work would make their lower salary acceptable to you then I would say
"The low end of my salary expectation is $XYZ, but I could be persuaded closer to your number if I was able to work remotely."

If salary is really the sticking point and, say, you had another offer with the salary you wanted, I would say
"I have other higher offers. $XYZ is my minimum salary level. If you can come up to my minimum though, and give me the option to work remotely, then I would be very interested"


As it stands, the benefits seem pretty good - I don't know how much they can really 'flex' on those things outside of including more PTO?
Do people really dig into trying to negotiating a better medical/dental/vision plans, or things like a higher 401k match? Some of these things seem more 'set in stone' but I haven't really tried negotiating those either.

I don't know for your specific job, it depends on the employer. But for example, I negotiated that my vacation time would never need approval. I agreed to give at least 2 months notice for any time off, but that no one would be able to reject my request.

As a side: I think I've read or heard (don't recall where) that you want to avoid throwing around any numbers/ranges at all, and focus first on getting them to the point of "wanting you so badly that they'll do anything" during the interview process. And in this way, you'll now have the upper-hand now with negotiations. It seems there are varying approaches and tactics.

There are varying approaches but they will depend much more on you and what you are looking for than anything else. I really encourage you to think of it less in terms of tactics, because that's coming through in the things you are writing here.

Focus less on being "strategic" because it doesn't seem to be working for you. For you, specifically, I would really focus, as I've said already, on narrowing down your actual goals and practicing communicating them in a more conversational way.

The way you keep writing here is a combination of overly formal AND communicates lack of assuredness. You aren't clearly communicating what you want, or that you deserve it. It's making you sound both uptight and nervous. Not an ideal combo.

Also, you trying to approach this "strategically" is making you view your potential employers as some kind of enemy to be outwitted, when that's really not the case. If you are valuable to them, then this whole thing can be very friendly.

I've aided in tons of hiring negotiations, and the way I've done it has never been adversarial where each side is trying to be strategic against the other. It's always just been a frank and clear conversation about what can and can't be done, where the goal is for everyone to get their max value out of the exchange.

For some people the more adversarial approach works really well, but for you, it seems to be clearly messing up your vibe, so I would strongly recommend taking another approach.

Don't forget, this is first and foremost a conversation. A very specific type of conversation with very specific outcomes, but still just a conversation. Try and think of it that way and it might help you establish a more confident tone.

Thanks. The thing with this position is that it might already be "remote friendly" for all I know but I'm not sure - this is why I was planning to ask them beforehand. If they are already allowing remote, then using that as a bargaining chip to "trade" for lower salary doesn't make much sense. So I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by demanding something that might be a non-factor. Unless I send them another 'interim' email asking them for more details before pushing for a higher base range.

Something like:
"Thanks for the information. I do need more information around:
1) What is the remote work policy of the company
2) Why this position has opened - backfill? Or expanding the team?"

And whatever other questions I might have while not yet addressing salary directly. Would this make sense to do just to dig more of that info out? Then if they say "we are remote for now but plan to RTO" I can pull out the "The salary presented is in my low range but if I could be persuaded to come closer to that number if I'm able to work remotely outside of the RTO plan"

Currently I have no other offers but depending on how I do with the upcoming Monday interviews, there might be one next week.

As far as coming off as adversarial and strategic, I tend to "think out loud" too much especially when writing. In person I can ramble but I don't feel I come off as adversarial or even uptight. I think in person I sound better than I do in writing hahaha (else, I'm guessing I wouldn't have progressed with the initial screener/interview I posted about... or, I'm just stupid stupid lucky)

If you gave me a number that's acceptable to you but then later on try to negotiate it upwards I'd need a good reason to agree and otherwise feel pretty pissed that you weren't telling the truth about what was acceptable to you.

For instance, if you said "I can work with the salary range you indicate depending on benefits and the availability of remote working but would also want to know about the potential for salary progression" then you are clearly indicating scope for negotiation - you could later say "the benefits are not matching up to my expectations so I would like to see uplift on the salary instead". 

The alternative is to say "I am looking for a higher initial salary to match the skills and experience I am bringing to the company".  That then gives the recruiter/company something to work with in increasing their offer.

Negotiation is about 1) making sure the other party knows what you want, 2) helping the other party to want to give you what you want ("this person is going to do a great job for us") and 3) supplying the other party with the reasons that make it easy for them to give you what you want ("the salary is a hard limit but we can add in other things to make it work" or "we need to go over the salary limit for this person but it's worth it").

You seem to be having some trouble working out what you are worth in salary terms.  I think you might look at it in a slightly different way: in three (or six, or twelve) months, am I going to be happy doing this job for this salary, or will I feel underpaid and resentful?  Because if the latter, it's not worth taking the job.  So ask for a salary that will make you feel that the job is worth it to you.  I think you've probably got a good idea of what that salary is.

Yea, in the beginning I very uncomfortably just gave up a single number for my ballpark. Not smart. I'm still mulling over how to recover from that but it *sounds* like I need to come up with reasons why I think it should be more...
btw: the more desirable *base* salary number going around in my head at this point is 13% higher than what I roughly make now factoring in bonus - I'm not sure if company A does bonuses so that's going to be another thing to ask and factor in here. Since it wasn't disclosed from the beginning, and if there is no bonus, I think that would give me some additional room to negotiate. Something along the lines of (this would only be part of a response/counter offer I send back):

"After learning more about the role and the expectations to be fulfilled, and considering what I have to offer not only upon starting but also for the future (particularly with automation experience and security), I would like to settle at $XXXX. I feel this number more accurately represents the significance and expectations of the role and my qualifications and experience as they relate to this position. Another factor I've taken into consideration is the benefits and full package, in which case the base range number I have given more accurately reflects the expectations I have for the total package and compensation"

[Metalcat]

Thanks. The thing with this position is that it might already be "remote friendly" for all I know but I'm not sure - this is why I was planning to ask them beforehand. If they are already allowing remote, then using that as a bargaining chip to "trade" for lower salary doesn't make much sense. So I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by demanding something that might be a non-factor. Unless I send them another 'interim' email asking them for more details before pushing for a higher base range.

Something like:
"Thanks for the information. I do need more information around:
1) What is the remote work policy of the company
2) Why this position has opened - backfill? Or expanding the team?"

And whatever other questions I might have while not yet addressing salary directly. Would this make sense to do just to dig more of that info out? Then if they say "we are remote for now but plan to RTO" I can pull out the "The salary presented is in my low range but if I could be persuaded to come closer to that number if I'm able to work remotely outside of the RTO plan"

yes, those are perfect questions. Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that the job wasn't remote and you were trying to negotiate it being able to do it remote.

Yes, you want to get as many of your facts straight before negotiating. It's always best to know what's being offered so that you can figure out what to ask for.


Currently I have no other offers but depending on how I do with the upcoming Monday interviews, there might be one next week.

As far as coming off as adversarial and strategic, I tend to "think out loud" too much especially when writing. In person I can ramble but I don't feel I come off as adversarial or even uptight. I think in person I sound better than I do in writing hahaha (else, I'm guessing I wouldn't have progressed with the initial screener/interview I was asking about)

I don't think you sound adversarial in your writing, you sound formal and uncomfortable. I suspect you perceiving the process as adversarial is influencing your tone. Formality tends to come off as uptight even if you don't intend it at all.

I'm constantly having to rewrite emails for my DH because he's a researcher and naturally writes in a formal way. So I always edit any important emails to fix the tone and make them sound more confident, even though he *is* perfectly confident.

It's something I've had to cultivate purposefully myself as a former researcher.

My rule of thumb in any context where I want to project self assuredness is to use as few words and as simple language as possible. Funnily, I put a lot of energy into editing emails to sound as though I put very little thought into them, lol.

[jeromedawg]

Thanks. The thing with this position is that it might already be "remote friendly" for all I know but I'm not sure - this is why I was planning to ask them beforehand. If they are already allowing remote, then using that as a bargaining chip to "trade" for lower salary doesn't make much sense. So I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by demanding something that might be a non-factor. Unless I send them another 'interim' email asking them for more details before pushing for a higher base range.

Something like:
"Thanks for the information. I do need more information around:
1) What is the remote work policy of the company
2) Why this position has opened - backfill? Or expanding the team?"

And whatever other questions I might have while not yet addressing salary directly. Would this make sense to do just to dig more of that info out? Then if they say "we are remote for now but plan to RTO" I can pull out the "The salary presented is in my low range but if I could be persuaded to come closer to that number if I'm able to work remotely outside of the RTO plan"

yes, those are perfect questions. Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that the job wasn't remote and you were trying to negotiate it being able to do it remote.

Yes, you want to get as many of your facts straight before negotiating. It's always best to know what's being offered so that you can figure out what to ask for.


Currently I have no other offers but depending on how I do with the upcoming Monday interviews, there might be one next week.

As far as coming off as adversarial and strategic, I tend to "think out loud" too much especially when writing. In person I can ramble but I don't feel I come off as adversarial or even uptight. I think in person I sound better than I do in writing hahaha (else, I'm guessing I wouldn't have progressed with the initial screener/interview I was asking about)

I don't think you sound adversarial in your writing, you sound formal and uncomfortable. I suspect you perceiving the process as adversarial is influencing your tone. Formality tends to come off as uptight even if you don't intend it at all.

I'm constantly having to rewrite emails for my DH because he's a researcher and naturally writes in a formal way. So I always edit any important emails to fix the tone and make them sound more confident, even though he *is* perfectly confident.

It's something I've had to cultivate purposefully myself as a former researcher.

My rule of thumb in any context where I want to project self assuredness is to use as few words and as simple language as possible. Funnily, I put a lot of energy into editing emails to sound as though I put very little thought into them, lol.

What I lean towards when I hear advice on not disclosing your salary (current or expected) is: "I'm not going to tell you about my salary or requirements because you're just going to try to lowball me anyway" and even if I may not say or write that, I'm sure it impacts the overall tone of what I end up conveying.

It seems the right or better frame of mind (but not necessarily what I might say or write) should be: "Let's find out how I can help the company first and see if it's the right fit - that's the most important thing to me right now. If we find that this is a mutually good fit on both sides, we can discuss the salary requirement further."

Either way, is it better to force them into giving up a "budget" range up front (like in the case of Company #2)? Or is it better to get them to concede to deferring the salary discussion until after they have in fact made sure you're the right candidate etc?

And does it *hurt* at all to say things like "That range is low but I'm open and flexible to discussing depending on other benefits and ultimately the total package"?

As you were alluding, it sounds like it would just come back to knowing what *my* priorities, needs and wants are and ultimately making that clear to them.

In terms of choice of words, I don't know that "open and flexible" conveys much confidence based on everything you've already advised, and so it seems like maybe not the best thing to say (NOTE: I haven't used these terms anywhere at this point - it was just something my brother advised, and I've always thought he was a pretty good negotiator... maybe I've been wrong this whole time haha)

[Metalcat]

I'm dyslexic and reading on my phone, lol, so I'm going to need more spacing and paragraphs if you want me to respond to what you've written specifically and not just generally. That just looks like a blob of visually painful text to me.

[jeromedawg]

I'm dyslexic and reading on my phone, lol, so I'm going to need more spacing and paragraphs if you want me to respond to what you've written specifically and not just generally. That just looks like a blob of visually painful text to me.

No worries - I modified the post and just spaced out all or most of the sentences apart from one another.


Quick hypothetical question here but what would I want say to a prospective employer(s) during interviews and/or negotiations IF I were to get laid-off (not fired) in this same time period (while interviews are ongoing) from my current company? Don't disclose or volunteer it at all?

[former player]

If you seriously think you are going to be laid off imminently you need to be seriously chasing after more than one job.

You volunteer nothing about being laid off.  And treating your package if you are laid off as the equivalent of pay then you are still being paid by them for however many weeks. And after that you can say your role there came to a natural end and you are now looking for something to take your skills into the future.

[jeromedawg]

If you seriously think you are going to be laid off imminently you need to be seriously chasing after more than one job.

You volunteer nothing about being laid off.  And treating your package if you are laid off as the equivalent of pay then you are still being paid by them for however many weeks. And after that you can say your role there came to a natural end and you are now looking for something to take your skills into the future.

Yep, I currently have another one in the works hopefully. I'm not sure if it's as "imminent" as I think but you never know with the current company - they are unstable and the execs are tone-deaf and are making extremely rash decisions (e.g. pushing RTO *hard* amidst the Delta surge). I need to stop visiting thelayoff.com but today there have been reports and or rumors of more lay-offs. In the past year or so, it feels like they've been lined many of us up in front of a small firing squad and are shooting every other month.

[Metalcat]

What I lean towards when I hear advice on not disclosing your salary (current or expected) is: "I'm not going to tell you about my salary or requirements because you're just going to try to lowball me anyway" and even if I may not say or write that, I'm sure it impacts the overall tone of what I end up conveying.

Exactly, you're approaching it as adversarial.

This is kind of confusing because when I say to approach things less adversarially, I don't mean to not be assertive, but to go in with the assumption that you can work together to accomplish a goal instead of trying outwit the other.

I just came back from a negotiation where I had to get a little loud and aggressive. I'm still not approaching the other side as an opponent though, I'm treating them like a collaborator in finding solutions, but strongly asserting my position.


It seems the right or better frame of mind (but not necessarily what I might say or write) should be: "Let's find out how I can help the company first and see if it's the right fit - that's the most important thing to me right now. If we find that this is a mutually good fit on both sides, we can discuss the salary requirement further."

Yes, decent attitude, but don't get caught up in the weeds of when or when not to discuss salary. Just know what you are worth and what you want and how willing you are to walk away from the offer. Stating your preferred salary is only a stressful part of the negotiation if you perceive it as stressful.

What you are willing to work for is a simple fact. Treat it as one.

Either way, is it better to force them into giving up a "budget" range up front (like in the case of Company #2)? Or is it better to get them to concede to deferring the salary discussion until after they have in fact made sure you're the right candidate etc?

It's never a good idea to force anything. If your minimum salary is simply something they cannot afford, then there's no point in you wasting their time to see if they are a good fit.

You really are making this into something bigger than it is.

Focus instead on getting comfortable with talking about salary expectations and you will be much better served in the long run than analyzing exactly when or how to discuss it.

Being comfortable discussing it will allow you to naturally handle any negotiating situation that comes up. Notice how I'm not giving you specific timing advice? Because I've never even thought about it myself, because I'm just comfortable stating my value and knowing how low I'm willing to go for certain concessions or job details.

It's the knowing and being comfortable talking about it that gives me so much negotiating leverage.

And does it *hurt* at all to say things like "That range is low but I'm open and flexible to discussing depending on other benefits and ultimately the total package"?

Depends on what you mean by "hurt". It depends on what outcome you want. How you negotiate to get the best salary or benefits is different from how you negotiate to most likely get the job offer.

Everything you say both helps and hurts in negotiations. It all depends on what you want, that's why knowing what you really want to accomplish is so important.

As you were alluding, it sounds like it would just come back to knowing what *my* priorities, needs and wants are and ultimately making that clear to them.

Exactly

In terms of choice of words, I don't know that "open and flexible" conveys much confidence based on everything you've already advised, and so it seems like maybe not the best thing to say (NOTE: I haven't used these terms anywhere at this point - it was just something my brother advised, and I've always thought he was a pretty good negotiator... maybe I've been wrong this whole time haha)

I don't really understand the question above. "Open and flexible" can be very confident if what you are trying to convey is that you are open and flexible.

[jeromedawg]

Thanks for the all the tips. Going to have to slow down and think through my responses (both written and verbal) before sending out emails, answering questions, framing things, etc.

A recruiter just reached out to me asking about interest in another position, so now we have a potential company #3. No discussions of salary at this point but I'm just trying to avoid the "adversarial" position/train of thought. The other recruiter at Company #2 finally got back and said the hiring manager wants to talk so that will be next week. On top of the 3 hour interview session on Monday. I'm trying not to think of it as "stressful" at this point (on top of the house thing). But interviews always give me the 'butterflies' too. The good thing, I think, is that the Zoom interviews are actually not bad and I feel more at ease about a minute or two in haha.

I guess updating my Linkedin profile and condensing my resume to make it more concise helped a lot.
 

EDIT: just spoke for a good 20-30 mins with the recruiter for company #3 (she said she's the recruiter at company #3's "sister company" and they brought her in to help with filling the role - so it's basically an internal recruiter situation). Different industry from #1 and #2 and also a startup-ish kind of feel.

She was pushing for a number so I asked for their low-end range and she eventually conceded. At that point I was pretty up front about my requirement after saying that it was too low. She asked what my "yes" base number would be and we landed at 13% higher than my current (including bonus - I didn't tell her that number of course) but I also told her that we would still need to take into
consideration the *total compensation* like with bonuses/options and the benefits package as well. EDIT: Yikes, I looked at the medical/dental/vision benefits for company #3 and the premiums would cost over $10k per year. They sent me the *weekly* premiums and the lowest cost ends up being like $1000/month

She said they needed the number to be able to submit to process the application and move forward an sent me a couple emails to confirm the rate/salary we discussed and some other form to confirm that I authorize for this process to begin.
- Haven't had to do this before so it's definitely new territory. Hopefully I didn't blow it with "disclosing" salary but at least this time I shot higher (and it was more 'informed' based off her disclosing the ballpark range/budget they've allocated). They seem like they want to bring someone in very soon so we'll see how this goes.

On that note, I'm assuming I should only talk about the other companies/interviews/offers AFTER I receive an actual offer in writing from another company? So even if an interview with company #1 goes well and I'm expecting an offer, but have an interview with company #2, don't talk about it with company #2 or #3 until after receiving the offer?

[cchrissyy]

You're getting good advice here!

Have you spent much time yet reading askamanager? I think it would be a very valuable use of your time.

Ive been self employed too much to have any relevant advice for you except to agree that the more you justify yourself the less secure you sound.  Can you picture the way you'd reply to a low-ball offer? Not to reply rudely but how would you say with confidence, I would only consider remote and it doesn't make sense for us to talk unless you could pay ____.
Where the blank is well above your current. Like how would you speak if someone said their range was only half your current. You'd be like, wow sorry, that's not in my ballpark. You would not waste a minute explaining that you feel you are a valuable addition to their team. That would be way too obvious to say.

Good luck!

[ender]

One way to think of hiring as less adversarial is to realize that the entire point of the interview process is for both you and the company to answer, "does this job make sense for @jeromedawg."

It's not them trying to fuck you over.

It's not you trying to scam them.

It's both you trying to understand if the job makes sense. And if so, find an agreement that works for both parties.

Money for a company means way less than it does for you. Another $10k or $20k or even $50k a year to them is pretty meaningless in most cases. To you it's not.

Compensation is just one piece of this though. Job fit is the other key part.

[Gronnie]

If you are mostly interviewing at non-tech companies or small companies there might not be much on there, but always check levels.fyi to see what's there.

Might not be much on there? Referring to? Glassdoor?

www.levels.fyi

Great site to show what you can expect to make at many companies at various levels.

[jeromedawg]

I had the technical rounds with Company #1 yesterday and overall it went pretty well - I fumbled around with a few things, especially the technical coding/scripting part but was kind of able to recover and work through a simple scripting problem that the engineer asked me to work through. It was actually kind of fun but only because he made it collaborative.

I had an initial interview with company #3' CTO today and it also went well - sounds like they want to put me through the technical rounds soon.

I have another initial interview with company #2 tomorrow and just got a request for interviews from now company #4.

Quick question but logistically with handling the timing of all this, how would you guys proceed in the hypothetical case where you might be receiving offers from multiple companies? Do you simply tell company #1 that you're looking to make a final decision by X date and then tell the other companies that you have an offer on the table even if it's in the first or early stages of the interview processes for the other companies? Like what if I were to get an offer from Company #1 this Fri and then I have initial interviews setup/scheduled for Company #4 but not until next Tuesday for instance? And if I'm still in the middle of interviews with #2 and #3 upon receiving #1's offer, do I reach out the recruiters for #2-3 and inform them that I have an offer? I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot because I think I read on Askamanager or Fearless that if you mention that you are interviewing elsewhere (and or have offers?) that they'll likely be disinterested in proceeding....

[former player]

You are overcomplicating this.  You take the first offer that pays enough and will be a decent place for you to work, and send your regrets to the others that you have accepted an offer to work elsewhere.

[jeromedawg]

You are overcomplicating this.  You take the first offer that pays enough and will be a decent place for you to work, and send your regrets to the others that you have accepted an offer to work elsewhere.

I'm not asking about what offer to take if I were presented multiple offers all in the same short time window where  one clearly stands out (both in salary amount and work/life balance/culture or whatever) and it's easy to pick and choose right then and there....

I'm asking about a situation where you've already received one offer and might be expecting or anticipating more offers (at higher salary ranges) to trickle in over the course of a week or two and the best way to go about coordinating/juggling everything so that most or all of those other offers are on the table, so that you can make that informed decision.

Do you give the company that you received an offer from initially a timeframe: "I'll have a decision to you by 9/5" and then tell the other companies that you're in the process of interviewing with that you have an active offer on the table to try to force them to expedite giving a response? This doesn't even factor in trying to negotiate a higher salary either, which I will likely want to do with this first company assuming I get an offer from them and it's lower than what I was looking for.

[Gronnie]

You are overcomplicating this.  You take the first offer that pays enough and will be a decent place for you to work, and send your regrets to the others that you have accepted an offer to work elsewhere.

Is this a serious post???

[former player]

You are overcomplicating this.  You take the first offer that pays enough and will be a decent place for you to work, and send your regrets to the others that you have accepted an offer to work elsewhere.

Is this a serious post???

Yup.  Given the poster and his situation, in which he is supporting a growing family on a single income and buying a million dollar house at the same time his thinks his job is disappearing under his feet.  And "pays enough" means "pays enough for OP to stop second guessing himself", which OP will do till the cows come home and all this round of job offers has vanished into the ether.  Feel free to suggest an alternative.

[jeromedawg]

You are overcomplicating this.  You take the first offer that pays enough and will be a decent place for you to work, and send your regrets to the others that you have accepted an offer to work elsewhere.

Is this a serious post???

Yup.  Given the poster and his situation, in which he is supporting a growing family on a single income and buying a million dollar house at the same time his thinks his job is disappearing under his feet.  And "pays enough" means "pays enough for OP to stop second guessing himself", which OP will do till the cows come home and all this round of job offers has vanished into the ether.  Feel free to suggest an alternative.

So you're saying that, if I haven't even finished up the other rounds of interviews and I get a job offer from company #1, I should just take it if it seems "decent" even though I don't know what the other companies may have to offer (and where they would potentially offer more)? Let's also assume that the salary expectation from company #1 would be the lowest across all companies and that the job duties, etc would be a little more "drab" compared to the other possibilities as well. Culturally the fit seems fine though... but I think at most of these companies "culture" isn't going to be a huge issue after what I've experienced these past five years.

The situation, as it stands, is tense - the company is promoting attrition. This doesn't mean they're seeking to lay people off as much as they are trying to get people to quit. They'd prefer the latter so they don't have to pay out severance, and it's working - many people are heading out the door on their own volition. So I think this is still something I have control over, for now. This isn't one of those circumstances where I've recently been laid off and now have to take the first thing that falls into my lap out of desperation. Or where I've been given notice (like at my previous company) that I'll "likely" be let go with several months of "advanced notice" - if this were the case I'd definitely be more inclined to the take the first thing that falls into my lap. One thing to note is that the company is pushing return to office really hard - I think this is partially a strategy for them to promote attrition. Nobody wants to hear about return to office during the Delta surge and lasting concerns over COVID.

[cchrissyy]

Yes you should take the first good offer you get. Give it one night to think it over and to ask for a small increase in pay, then accept!

I'm assuming of course it's a good job and good company and it's remote like you want and with better pay and benefits. Don't accept a place worse that where you're at.

But no, to your earlier question, there is no good way to ask the first people to wait in case more offers to come in, and there is no good way to ask another company to hurry up and make their offer.

keep reading AskAManager while you wait

[jeromedawg]

Yes you should take the first good offer you get. Give it one night to think it over and to ask for a small increase in pay, then accept!

I'm assuming of course it's a good job and good company and it's remote like you want and with better pay and benefits. Don't accept a place worse that where you're at.

But no, to your earlier question, there is no good way to ask the first people to wait in case more offers to come in, and there is no good way to ask another company to hurry up and make their offer.

keep reading AskAManager while you wait

I wouldn't be asking company #1 to wait on me because I'm expecting other offers to com in. I'd simply ask them "Can I give my final decision to you by 9/6?" after asking for the increase. This is because if I have concurrent interviews going on at the same time, wouldn't I want to let those play out? But it sounds like I shouldn't give *any* indicators to the other companies I'm interviewing with that I have an offer (note: I would never plan on telling them I'm interviewing elsewhere... I'm only asking this in the case that I have a written offer or more in hand)? So, if by 9/6, I have more than one offer on the table that's obviously a good thing but you would also suggest not leveraging one offer against another as a form of negotiating salary up? Going back to an earlier suggestion from Malcat:

If salary is really the sticking point and, say, you had another offer with the salary you wanted, I would say
"I have other higher offers. $XYZ is my minimum salary level. If you can come up to my minimum though, and give me the option to work remotely, then I would be very interested"

[cchrissyy]

I'd simply ask them "Can I give my final decision to you by 9/6?" after asking for the increase. This is because if I have concurrent interviews going on at the same time, wouldn't I want to let those play out?

that is the right way to ask but i don't think it looks good to ask for more than a day.
this isn't one of those cases where the worst they can say is no. they could pull the offer at any time until you've accepted it, and so you're endangering the offer by seeming indecisive or less-than-interested. you never know what other candidates they have lined up. 
I don't think you should try to stretch out the timeline if you're in the interview process with someone else, because interviews are very far from having an actual offer or any guaranteed timeline of hearing back.

[jeromedawg]

I'd simply ask them "Can I give my final decision to you by 9/6?" after asking for the increase. This is because if I have concurrent interviews going on at the same time, wouldn't I want to let those play out?

that is the right way to ask but i don't think it looks good to ask for more than a day.
this isn't one of those cases where the worst they can say is no. they could pull the offer at any time until you've accepted it, and so you're endangering the offer by seeming indecisive or less-than-interested. you never know what other candidates they have lined up. 
I don't think you should try to stretch out the timeline if you're in the interview process with someone else, because interviews are very far from having an actual offer or any guaranteed timeline of hearing back.

I see. That makes more sense putting it in that context. I know some potential employers are willing to "give the weekend" for you to think about offers so I was probably thinking more along those lines. I guess the hope at this point is to try to line things up as such where I can try to get offers close to one another as soon as possible. Company #1 was the first to interview by several days and this is the same one where I stupidly gave up and lowballed my salary range/requirement. So based on that alone, I feel a bit stuck - I know the other companies aren't guaranteed but I'll be kicking myself if I accept the offer and finish interviewing with the other places and end up getting a higher offer(s) at any of the other places.


https://www.askamanager.org/2012/05/how-to-juggle-a-job-offer-when-youre-waiting-on-another-and-how-to-find-a-mentor.html

[cchrissyy]

i know it's hard but try not to worry about the salary you told the recruiter. that was before you knew much about the job, and it was before the company knew much about you. 

we don't know if that figure will influence their price. 

no matter if it does or not, it is always smart to ask for a small increase on the first salary you're offered. if they say 100, you ask if they can do 105.

if they literally offer you that number you said, be prepared with a short and sweet way to handle it, like "I see the salary is the figure I gave the recruiter before my first interview, but now I know more about the role I want to see ___$x___".  There's probably a better way to say that, you can research phrases ahead of time. just remember not to get wordy and over-justify yourself. The number they pushed you hardly counts. It was premature and under pressure and was not informed by everything you have now learned about the company, the role, the other benefits.

Good luck!

[jeromedawg]

i know it's hard but try not to worry about the salary you told the recruiter. that was before you knew much about the job, and it was before the company knew much about you. 

we don't know if that figure will influence their price. 

no matter if it does or not, it is always smart to ask for a small increase on the first salary you're offered. if they say 100, you ask if they can do 105.

if they literally offer you that number you said, be prepared with a short and sweet way to handle it, like "I see the salary is the figure I gave the recruiter before my first interview, but now I know more about the role I want to see ___$x___".  There's probably a better way to say that, you can research phrases ahead of time. just remember not to get wordy and over-justify yourself. The number they pushed you hardly counts. It was premature and under pressure and was not informed by everything you have now learned about the company, the role, the other benefits.

Good luck!

Thanks. Yea I guess we'll see if the offer comes back - I'm sort of expecting one but also don't want to hold my breath. Per Fearless it seems like asking for 10-20% more is OK but you do have to justify it a bit. I know for my current position when I was hired on I asked for $10k more IIRC but they basically just offered me a signing bonus in addition to reminding me of the year of year target bonus, etc.

[JJ-]

You know @jeromedawg all of your responses make me think of the idiom of "Pigs get fat but hogs get slaughtered."

I know you are trying to get the best deal for yourself in these three job scenarios. And yes, I think you'll regret a bit not getting an extra $10k a year or something, but that is nothing compared to the regret you'd feel at the end of the day knowing you pushed too hard and ended up with nothing. 

[MayDay]

I'm in engineering and I think it's fine to say "can I let you know by 9/6" or whatever, but I'd say it's expected that you answer in 3-4 days. Like if they offer on a Mon-Wed, answer by Fri, if they offer on Th-Fri, answer by Monday.

The other thing is, if they offer 100, and you ask for 120, and they come back with 120..... You need to just accept. Otherwise it will leave a bad taste. Only acception would be if you just got benefits info, I'd say you can take a day to review benefits info (but imo you shouldn't counter until you have it anyway because the cost of benefits will inform your counter).

[gooki]

Just because you accept one job, doesn't mean you can't accept a better one if it comes along.

Yeah it sucks for the first company, but hey, that's business.

[jeromedawg]

Just because you accept one job, doesn't mean you can't accept a better one if it comes along.

Yeah it sucks for the first company, but hey, that's business.

I would imagine you'd burn some bridges doing this but if you have to do it, choose wisely and carefully.

[Metalcat]

Just because you accept one job, doesn't mean you can't accept a better one if it comes along.

Yeah it sucks for the first company, but hey, that's business.

I would imagine you'd burn some bridges doing this but if you have to do it, choose wisely and carefully.

Maybe, maybe not.

It really depends on the case and how you handle it.
Business is business. If you get a much better offer, no employer should hold it against you if you take it, and if they do, it might be a bridge worth burning anyway.

Be careful, yes, but don't ever hold yourself back out of a sense that someone expects loyalty from you that they haven't earned.

[jeromedawg]

Just because you accept one job, doesn't mean you can't accept a better one if it comes along.

Yeah it sucks for the first company, but hey, that's business.

I would imagine you'd burn some bridges doing this but if you have to do it, choose wisely and carefully.

Maybe, maybe not.

It really depends on the case and how you handle it.
Business is business. If you get a much better offer, no employer should hold it against you if you take it, and if they do, it might be a bridge worth burning anyway.

Be careful, yes, but don't ever hold yourself back out of a sense that someone expects loyalty from you that they haven't earned.

Makes sense - I'll keep all that in mind.


One question going back to salary - so far with company #4 they haven't said anything about salary. This is a larger/big name tech company (not quite FAANG) but either way this is the first time I haven't been asked about my salary requirement/expectation up front and going through an at-length discussion with the direct hiring manager and still not having that discussion (this was a 30 min call that ended up going for nearly an hour). Is there a certain point in time where I should be initiating that discussion? Or do I wait for them to make the offer?

[gooki]

The general rule is you want them to propose a number first.

[markbrynn]

Unless you want to save yourself time from interviews that go nowhere, there's not really a reason for you to want to know the number until they present an offer. As others mentioned, focus on the fit and worry about the salary/benefits if the fit looks good.

For me, it would be ideal if they weren't bringing up a number right away. It makes them sound like a company that knows they will have to compensate you fairly, is willing to do so, and therefore has no reason to ask about your salary range.

[Metalcat]

The general rule is you want them to propose a number first.

True, but this also depends on the circumstances.

I've invented my own role at a few companies, so have also had to proactively propose my own compensation because there is no frame of reference for my role, and I sometimes need to step in and prevent a potential employer from proffering a number that would embarrass both of us, just because they don't know better.

That's a rare circumstance, but my point is that circumstances matter, and there are scenarios where you want to be the one who establishes pay expectations, not the one reacting to their offer. This will often hinge on how unique the person's skills are. If someone is easily comparable and replaceable with another equally skilled employee, then the employer will have a solid sense of value for the role.

However, if the person is a rare commodity, then the role doesn't have an established value, the individual does, and they have a better position to assert what they believe that value to be.

In OP's case, it definitely sounds like the best approach is just to wait for the offer, but it's also good to be aware that there are no hard and fast rules, and to learn to identify *why* a rule may or may not apply.

[jeromedawg]

So the interview with company #4 was on Wed (2 days ago) and I haven't received any follow-ups despite the manager telling me directly that he would like to move forward and I should be hearing from the recruiter. I did send an email out to the recruiter later in the day same day of the interview, just quickly thanking and updating her on the call and asking to keep me posted of the next steps.

Is it too forward to send a follow-up email on that today? Or should I give it the weekend and wait until Monday?

I have 2nd round interviews next week (and one 3rd and presumably final) throughout next week.

[youngwildandfree]

So the interview with company #4 was on Wed (2 days ago) and I haven't received any follow-ups despite the manager telling me directly that he would like to move forward and I should be hearing from the recruiter. I did send an email out to the recruiter later in the day same day of the interview, just quickly thanking and updating her on the call and asking to keep me posted of the next steps.

Is it too forward to send a follow-up email on that today? Or should I give it the weekend and wait until Monday?

I have 2nd round interviews next week (and one 3rd and presumably final) throughout next week.

I would say today is too soon. Monday would be better.

[jeromedawg]

So the interview with company #4 was on Wed (2 days ago) and I haven't received any follow-ups despite the manager telling me directly that he would like to move forward and I should be hearing from the recruiter. I did send an email out to the recruiter later in the day same day of the interview, just quickly thanking and updating her on the call and asking to keep me posted of the next steps.

Is it too forward to send a follow-up email on that today? Or should I give it the weekend and wait until Monday?

I have 2nd round interviews next week (and one 3rd and presumably final) throughout next week.

I would say today is too soon. Monday would be better.

Right... maybe try to aim to shoot something out mid-morning their time?

[youngwildandfree]

So the interview with company #4 was on Wed (2 days ago) and I haven't received any follow-ups despite the manager telling me directly that he would like to move forward and I should be hearing from the recruiter. I did send an email out to the recruiter later in the day same day of the interview, just quickly thanking and updating her on the call and asking to keep me posted of the next steps.

Is it too forward to send a follow-up email on that today? Or should I give it the weekend and wait until Monday?

I have 2nd round interviews next week (and one 3rd and presumably final) throughout next week.

I would say today is too soon. Monday would be better.

Right... maybe try to aim to shoot something out mid-morning their time?

That’s a good plan. I am a total hypocrite here, but try to take some time off this weekend where you don’t even worry about the interviews/negotiations. At least for a few hours. You’ve got this!

[jeromedawg]

So the interview with company #4 was on Wed (2 days ago) and I haven't received any follow-ups despite the manager telling me directly that he would like to move forward and I should be hearing from the recruiter. I did send an email out to the recruiter later in the day same day of the interview, just quickly thanking and updating her on the call and asking to keep me posted of the next steps.

Is it too forward to send a follow-up email on that today? Or should I give it the weekend and wait until Monday?

I have 2nd round interviews next week (and one 3rd and presumably final) throughout next week.

I would say today is too soon. Monday would be better.

Right... maybe try to aim to shoot something out mid-morning their time?

That’s a good plan. I am a total hypocrite here, but try to take some time off this weekend where you don’t even worry about the interviews/negotiations. At least for a few hours. You’ve got this!

Yea, we're heading to the beach tomorrow. I might get some fishing in which would probably be good just to clear my mind haha.

[jeromedawg]

Had the second round interview with company #3 this AM from 6-8am. It was rough. As if that's not early enough, they drilled me on technical questions in a way I haven't been tested in a long time. My brain is fried. I stumbled around a number of questions and, unfortunately, failed to understand several of the questions they asked due to heavy accents or things not being asked in the clearest context (both technical interviewers work out of countries in Eastern Europe). Some of the questions they asked were like the kind you'd see on technical exams (asking about the function of a certain process - what it is, why it's used and or how it works)... for the record: I hate taking technical knowledge exams and would rather learn by doing rather than by talking about. Both are important but I tend to lean towards the former.
The technical interviews I had with company #1 were a lot more geared that way in terms of interviewing by *doing* vs asking a barrage of technical knowledge questions. Company #3s product doesn't excite me all that much (in comparison to all the other companies) but the nature of the work is probably better long-term career wise I think.

I still have upcoming interviews with Company #2 (this position is more of an oversight/advisory and not all that technical but could potentially go down the product mgmt track I'm thinking). Company #4 I still haven't heard back from but I just realized that the recruiter is OOO until from 8/26-9/2 which explains why I haven't heard anything since I interviewed... you'd think they would have someone else helping with things but I guess they're not in a rush. Of all the companies, right now Company #4 is most appealing because they're the biggest name out of all the ones on the table. Oh and Company #1 I'm having a 3rd round half-hour interview (not sure if this is just a formality) with the VP of Engineering this Wed. 

Anyway, I'm going to need a long recovery nap later today lol... it's been a grueling process.

[jeromedawg]

Company #3 didn't work out (this was the rough 6am interview one). I think it's for the better - I was having trouble understanding the technical interviewers a third of the time due to both having heavy accents. It also felt like they were pressing more for head knowledge versus practical applied knowledge as well. While knowing all the specifics and terms (or even recalling command line and programmatic functions off the top of your head) is somewhat important, what's more important in roles like this are actually being able to pick-up and run with things even if you don't know or understand all the nitty gritty details (especially right away). Culturally, I don't think it would have been a great fit (I could foresee potentially clashing with the technical interviewers if we became coworkers) and as I mentioned the product isn't something super interesting to me. Though I'm bummed I didn't get an offer (even though this is the one company I didn't apply for and who reached out to me via the recruiter), in the back of my mind I was kind of hoping it wouldn't work out lol. The recruiter also felt kind of pushy on the entire salary expectation thing. In a follow-up call yesterday, she was asking if I had flexibility around the number that *she* threw out and suggested earlier in the first screener/call, and if it would still be enough for me to say "Yes" if they kept it - I kept saying it would depend on the total package and benefits, as well as if there's a bonus structure (which I also told her when she first suggested the amount in the very beginning). She seemed hesitant after that and proceeded to ask how my overall job search is going and if I have other interviews on the table to which I replied "I have items on the table currently" - felt like a lot of tire-kicking to me come to think of it.

[jeromedawg]

Hoping not to jinx myself here but interviews with Company #2, I thought, went very well. I received verbal affirmation of recommendation from one of the interviewers today and all the other interviews I've had up until this point have gone well - everyone I spoke with either really liked me or they were just super friendly, both which I've never really encountered much during interviews haha. But for every call, I felt like there was good chemistry. The more 'technical' interview with the engineering manager was probably my weakest of them all but I think I was able to answer his questions.
This position is more of an advisory/oversight role where they want a subject matter expert on the software side to come in and help shore things up. It's a medical device company looking to expand functionality into the cloud and to expand their software as a service platform. At first I didn't really know what the company did or what the products were but after reading up, learning and interviewing, it's actually one of those companies I would aspire to work for (they are in the field of radiation treatment for cancer).

Company #1 I'm waiting to hear back from but expect I'll probably hear something from both next week. Company #4 is lagging behind with me on maintaining communication. Not sure if this is how the company operates at a higher level, if it's their recruiting dept or if it's this particular recruiter but I haven't heard a word from her since she left and came back from being OOO. I sent a follow-up email last night just wanting to touch-base and so that I'd be towards the top of her mailbox but I guess she's been catching up on everything else.