Phone screener: when the interviewer asks why you're looking to leave?

[youngwildandfree]

Was just wondering how it was going! Glad to hear a positive update. I’m rooting for you!

[jeromedawg]

Oops - originally posted this in the wrong thread lol:

Just got off the phone with Company #3. I sort of messed up talking too much about compensation when she asked about salary requirement. She told me their max range budgeted is $XXX and I said my minimum at the low end would be $10k more than that number but also depends on the benefits package but that I was willing to be flexible (I shouldn't have said this... I suck with the verbal conversation part - still needing for that to catch up with the written lol). Anyway, when I think about it, I'd be fine with $10k over their minimum but would highly prefer $20k more. I feel like I've boxed myself in though doing that. One thing to note is that there is a 10% YOY bonus (at least for now) so that could factor in to getting me closer to that number too. In the meantime, I'm still reviewing benefits. The recruiter told me that she'd send over the benefits and asked me to review them and then circle back with her again to give my final number and what not.

Not quite sure if I have room to shoot for more than the $10k "over budget" that I already discussed with her on the phone. 

[youngwildandfree]

I wouldn't back down on what you already said on the phone. If you are ok with working for their max budget number given the benefits and bonus, take the job.

If you aren't ok with it (would feel bitter or cheated), reiterate the 10K over budget is your goal.

Don't shoot for more than 10K over when that's what you already said.

[jeromedawg]

I wouldn't back down on what you already said on the phone. If you are ok with working for their max budget number given the benefits and bonus, take the job.

If you aren't ok with it (would feel bitter or cheated), reiterate the 10K over budget is your goal.

Don't shoot for more than 10K over when that's what you already said.

Thanks. I also stated the $10k over in one of the earlier emails. But also mentioned this is the *minimum* low-end budget. I just reiterated this over the phone and also said "I'm open and flexible depending on benefits" which could mean a lot of things (e.g. if the benefits are the same then I'll ask for $10k but if they're not as good then I may ask for more). Right now, upon reviewing benefits, they're mostly 1-to-1. I think the $10k will work out, especially factoring in bonus assuming I get it. The other thing my brother suggested is asking them to bump salary another $10k, upon review, after 6 months or something. Not sure if that's asking for too much or is unreasonable...

[ender]

Anecdotal, but I had an offer and subsequently worked for $15k above the top of the range given to me by my last company.

[jeromedawg]

Anecdotal, but I had an offer and subsequently worked for $15k above the top of the range given to me by my last company.

Good to know. Thanks for the feedback. Do you think I've "boxed myself" in too much with the $10k over number I've given already? Or is there room to go beyond that?

Would it make more sense to ask for an additional $5k-$10k increase after a 6-12month (or whatever) "vesting" period ?

OR, even though it's not the ultimate "yes" number for me right now, if I like the mgr/team/company, is it best just to bite the bullet and take it for that $10k over number I've already thrown out. Again, not sure how much of this has already been relayed to the hiring manager but they very much dichotomize the communication between recruiting and even the hiring manager. I would be surprised if he didn't already know but at the same time it seems like I have to go through the recruiter for *everything* (which is a policy change as they were recently bought out by a bigger company).

[ender]

I think you're worried 1000x more about that 10k figure (a rounding error for tech companies) than you need to be.

[Paul der Krake]

Don't feel bad getting blustered and saying clumsy things on comp. We all do it to some extent.

The recruiters do this every day, you do it once every couple of years. They are experts at letting people make unforced errors. You're a high school sophomore going up against an NBA veteran at the local park. They block all your shots with one arm tied behind their back and talking to their mom on the phone, utterly shutting you down while appearing to do nothing.

Ideally, try to negotiate comp over email, not the phone. It gives you more time to think about what you want to say and not fall for subtle behavioral techniques.

But really there is no big secret. The best thing you can do is:
1) have competing offers
2) target high paying companies
2) actually be willing to turn down offers and wait longer for the right one.

[jeromedawg]

I think you're worried 1000x more about that 10k figure (a rounding error for tech companies) than you need to be.

So are you saying I should just ask for $20k over and not worry about whether they say "yes" or "no" and take whatever offer they come back with?


Or just negotiate for the $10k over I've already put out there?

Don't feel bad getting blustered and saying clumsy things on comp. We all do it to some extent.

The recruiters do this every day, you do it once every couple of years. They are experts at letting people make unforced errors. You're a high school sophomore going up against an NBA veteran at the local park. They block all your shots with one arm tied behind their back and talking to their mom on the phone, utterly shutting you down while appearing to do nothing.

Ideally, try to negotiate comp over email, not the phone. It gives you more time to think about what you want to say and not fall for subtle behavioral techniques.

But really there is no big secret. The best thing you can do is:
1) have competing offers
2) target high paying companies
2) actually be willing to turn down offers and wait longer for the right one.

LOL that's a funny basketball analogy - good one haha.

At this point I do plan to move everything to email communication as far as the salary negotiation response (as opposed to calling them back to stutter through it more).

Currently there are no competing offers although company #1 I'm still kind of waiting for a response from (going to send over an email soon).
In my case, FAANG would be the way to go IMO but I'm 'scared' off by all the technical interview madness. Frankly, it's not something I'm ready for. I've actually interviewed with Netflix, Linkedin and I think maybe Facebook at some point in time and was made to feel way too junior for those companies. Probably need to brush up and study hard for those if I want to try to force entry lol.
My situation now is such that I have the 'luxury' to look around while the ship is still above water. There are threats of lay-offs but the company is playing "chicken" with us trying to get us to leave on our own volition before laying people off (to avoid paying out severance). So my actions with interviewing with multiple other companies is probably highly encouraged by my current employer LOL. At the same time, I don't want wait around looking for the "most perfect offer ever" given the current situation. That said, this prospective employer/company seems like a great company and the benefits are matching up pretty well with my current company. The big difference is the prospective employer's mission is pretty tough to beat (basically to beat cancer).



I think the trouble I'm having right now is that the company wants me to throw the number out there. So I'm racking my brains on this and crunching the numbers. If I stayed at the $10k-over number I gave, after factoring in and adding up all the benefits with no other changes to things like PTO, etc. I'd be taking a 13-14% increase moving to this position. If I tried to push for $20k-over, then I'd be at around a 20% increase.

[Paul der Krake]

Yes, the FANGs of the world will require strong algorithm knowledge, no ifs and buts. Thankfully it can be learned quite effectively with some discipline.

And they are not all that difficult. Some interviewers on a power trip will definitely expect you to implement Dijkstra cold in 20 minutes, but many interviewers will just throw a easy-to-medium problem at you, maybe with a followup or some optional DP thrown in to see if you find it.

I recommend
https://www.dailycodingproblem.com/

They send you one leetcode-style problem every morning, see if you can solve it. If you can't, study why you missed the solution and maintain a mental categorization system of problems. Review past problems a few days later to keep ideas fresh in your mind. Do this for a month or two or three and your algorithm chops will drastically improve, and then you have a fair shot at the big leagues.

[ender]

@Paul der Krake the nice part is @jeromedawg is in a QA type of role which -- so far -- haven't gotten the insanity that is LeetCode interviews to be common.

[Paul der Krake]

Right, and it's the same thing, to a lesser extent, for SRE roles. Less algorithms, more scrappiness. The really good QA people are capable devs in their own right. In fact, they often use it as backdoor to becoming "real" devs later.

Really, I can't think of a single scenario where being generally better at algorithms would hurt you. It will absolutely raise your profile across the board. You will think more clearly, save time, have a better understanding of the systems you support, etc.

[former player]

At this point you've put your number out there and there is nothing more to do in terms of numbers than to wait to see what comes back.  Going back now and saying something different "oh I didn't mean x I meant y" would be meaningless.  The company will either come back with an offer you like or not.  If it's one you don't like you can try to negotiate it up or walk away.

If the job, company and mission are all ones you like, and the role is one which has potential, then accepting an offer which isn't quite where you would want it isn't necessarily a bad thing, you just need to keep on top of the value you are adding to the company and make sure that is recognised in future bonuses and salary increases.

[jeromedawg]

At this point you've put your number out there and there is nothing more to do in terms of numbers than to wait to see what comes back.  Going back now and saying something different "oh I didn't mean x I meant y" would be meaningless.  The company will either come back with an offer you like or not.  If it's one you don't like you can try to negotiate it up or walk away.

If the job, company and mission are all ones you like, and the role is one which has potential, then accepting an offer which isn't quite where you would want it isn't necessarily a bad thing, you just need to keep on top of the value you are adding to the company and make sure that is recognised in future bonuses and salary increases.

My friend was telling me that backpedaling on the salary amount, while not a bad thing in of its own rite, might rub them the wrong way and cause them to judge my character as being one of those "say one thing but then do/say another" types. The thing is, I was following fearless' template as well and using "low/minimum end range of the ballpark" as my terminology and left the base salary details relatively open-ended in that respect. That said, I think the number I'm asking for is very fair. After calculating all or most of the benefits, I'm projecting that at a minimum this would be a 13%~ bump up in base salary + benefits (not including bonus) which I guess is ok. Going back to the current company being a sinking ship, it's probably best just to take what I can at this point especially if the new company is one I believe in and feel like I can get behind.

[Paul der Krake]

Yeah, absolutely wait until they come back with an offer before negotiating further. Sending an email now is not a good look.

You can always say "I quoted X before but I have since done research realized that I undervalued what I would bring to the company". So long as it's done a in respectful way and you have a semi-believable story to back it up, it's a very normal thing to do. Emphasize how much you are excited about the role and why you are the perfect fit for it. If they meet this small demand you are ready to sign today.

[jeromedawg]

@Paul der Krake the nice part is @jeromedawg is in a QA type of role which -- so far -- haven't gotten the insanity that is LeetCode interviews to be common.

Right, and it's the same thing, to a lesser extent, for SRE roles. Less algorithms, more scrappiness. The really good QA people are capable devs in their own right. In fact, they often use it as backdoor to becoming "real" devs later.

Really, I can't think of a single scenario where being generally better at algorithms would hurt you. It will absolutely raise your profile across the board. You will think more clearly, save time, have a better understanding of the systems you support, etc.

The interview I had with Company #2 felt like they wanted someone l33t and scrappy. The guy was all over the place with his questions, digging into the technical aspects of the Linux filesystem and specific processes, networking, Python, etc... I guess they needed someone who fulfilled all of these roles with extended knowledge when they were really interviewing for a "QA Engineer w/ some infosec experience" lol. It felt like I was taking a SANS GIAC Exam live, verbally testing for a CISSP and or taking some super technical sysadmin exam lol.
To begin with, them asking (or nearly demanding) for me to do a 6am call my time without showing much if any flexibility on scheduling was already a bit of a red flag. Then when the interviewer/principle guy out of nowhere asks if it's okay that he's smoking on the call (granted, with a e-cig IIRC, which I didn't even notice), that was just weird.

I don't think I mentioned this but I had a screener with company #5 and the recruiter was expressing concerns over my lack of experience in automation/Python etc. She asked if I needed a week to brush up on that stuff and I told her in more or less words that if this QA-specific position is one where they're looking for someone to come in and impress them with solving some crazy logic puzzle or big coding problem, it likely wasn't going to work out. However, if they are looking for someone who can do simple scripting to sum up odd numbers between 1-100 (for example), that would be more doable. I asked her which they were looking for and she STILL sounded uncertain! She at some point asked if my experience was more oriented doing programming vs scripting... hello, didn't you read my resume? I asked her what percentage of the job they expect to involve automation and she couldn't give me a straight answer. The job description is for a QA Engineer in infosec and didn't emphasize much if anything about automation but she went on and on about how the expectation is for heavy automation. Smh... Some of these recruiters/hiring managers need to work on writing better job descriptions.

[jeromedawg]

Yeah, absolutely wait until they come back with an offer before negotiating further. Sending an email now is not a good look.

You can always say "I quoted X before but I have since done research realized that I undervalued what I would bring to the company". So long as it's done a in respectful way and you have a semi-believable story to back it up, it's a very normal thing to do. Emphasize how much you are excited about the role and why you are the perfect fit for it. If they meet this small demand you are ready to sign today.

Yea she sent me over the benefits PDF to review and I sent her back a list of clarifying questions about more specifics on some of the benefits as well as clarification around what's supplied for the job (laptop, phone, hotspot, reimbursements for internet, etc) but nothing yet about salary.

The recruiter seems pretty busy as it has been several hours since I sent this email asking for more info on benefits. So I'm not confident they'd get back to me before the end of the day but we'll see. Since the buyout from the larger company, it seems like there's more red tape with their hiring process (the hiring mgr told me to send all comms through the recruiter since he's not supposed to directly communicate with me hahaha).

But as far as them sending an offer first, they're basically putting the ball back into my court so that give them a number *first*. So just trying to figure out how to navigate that.

[jeromedawg]

Hmmm... the recruiter hasn't responded with the questions I sent back yesterday regarding benefits. Hoping that it's still just her finding/collecting/compiling the answers - at this point, should I give her a call back to touch base and follow-up? Or does that look too desperate? I also want to avoid additional verbal discussions of salary before I email the numbers out.

My plan was to first get the responses to the questions I asked, then respond back with the email including my number, and go from there.

Also, after sleeping on it more, I'm still considering asking for $20k more instead of $10k more. Just not exactly sure how to frame it with high confidence. I've already used the "this will be a big step in responsibility and I believe the [$10k] increase justifies it" over the phone for my minimum/bottom range number but this was all verbal as well (and I don't know how much the recruiter has conveyed to the hiring mgr either).
I've reviewed the benefits otherwise and they're pretty on-par with what I have now. The biggest difference is PTO and holidays. There are less holidays and the PTO will fall 5 days short (including a few days of sick time that rolls over to PTO each year)

[jeromedawg]

OK - the recruiter got back answering some of the questions and is still looking into the others.

At this point, I'm wondering if I should go ahead and proceed with presenting my number/proposal. I'm thinking to start with the $20k "over budget" number and work my way down from there towards my $10k over budget "minimum target".

Or is that a bad idea?

Currently, the template would be along these lines (mostly following Fearless' - I'm not sure if it needs to be this lengthy starting out when they're asking me, first, for the salary to "get me to come over"):

"Regarding the role, thank you for all the coordination with the hiring manager and team! The mission of the company resonates strongly with me and the opportunity to work here is exciting because I am a great fit and for CCC's needs and this would provide growth as a engineer.
I will be a significant value-add to the team from day one. I have a strong technical background and solid understanding of SDLC, requirements and processes, bringing years of experience both in quality assurance as well as in information security and risk.
Based on discussions with the team, my background and qualities would serve as significant assets not just from the QA and SDLC perspective but also from an information security and risk perspective, which is why I look forward to the opportunity to work here.

After careful thought and consideration with my family, I would feel comfortable with a base salary of $XXX. I feel like this amount reflects and importance and expectations of the position and how my experience and qualifications relate to the position.

Thank you and I look forward to speaking with you soon!"


Not sure if that's *too much* in the context of the current situation (again, where I'm having to present the offer/my number rather than responding or countering to them).


EDIT: just got a call and VM from company #1...presumably he wants to talk about an offer. This is the one where I really boxed myself in with a low ballpark number. EDIT#2: I responded to company #1 deferring the phone conversation until tomorrow afternoon to buy more time. I also just responded to company #2 (i think i may have mixed things up and referred to them as company #3 at some point lol) thanking them for looking into and answering some questions and then telling them I look forward to hearing back (on the remainder that she said she was getting answers on). I figure this will be a good way to buy a bit more time while maintaining the interest. Right now the order of preference/ranking for the companies is Company #2 being first choice and Company #1 being second choice. Company #2 I think has superior benefits as well.

[cchrissyy]

congrats on having options!

I have no direct experience with this stage so I am just bumping this for other people to reply.

I will say, I like what you wrote except how long it is. I think you should cut to the chase - express that you are excited and say what you want. that might take 3 sentances. cut all that stuff about your background. they already know you have valuable skills and are a good fit and or else they wouldn't want you at this stage. 
but again, this is NOT my strong suit. listen to the pros not me.

[Paul der Krake]

Listen to all offers, write them down. Let the ones dragging their feet that you have received offers and they need to shit or get off the pot (but in a nice way).
Don't commit to anything. If they ask what you're thinking, say something vague like "this is a good starting point". State that you have a couple options and want to make a decision very soon.
Once all the offers are in, figure out which ones are trash and which ones have potential.
State what you want to those, by email.
See what they each come back with. You likely can only do this once or twice before they lose patience and/or think you're just using them to bid yourself up elsewhere.
Pick the best.

[jeromedawg]

I only have two likely offers at this point in time so not much to leverage by way of multiple offers lol.

One of my buddies just suggested putting the ball back in company #2s court with an email letting them know I have another company I'm looking at and asking them what the total compensation/package would be. This first thing tmrw AM.

Them following up with company #1 to see what they have to say or offer and take it from there


Related question but in terms of leverage and negotiation, do you guys think it's *better* to be in a position where you're telling the company what you want [dictating?] as far as your final number is concerned? Or is it better to get the company to give you the offer first? This is in the context where the company has already disclosed their "max budget" and I also have disclosed my minimum number?

[jeromedawg]

So I heard back from company #2 and it sounds like they might be out. The recruiter reached out and told me they were trying to get approval for the $10k over budget amount I initially was discussing as "low end range of my ballpark" and asked if I'd take the offer if it were approved. I replied back saying I'd be comfortable if they could do $10k more above and then she responded back to me saying they couldn't do that and that they unfortunately couldn't even go over the max budget by the $10k she originally was inquiring on (this was all over the course of an hour). Then she seemed to shut down the conversation saying if something else comes along she'll let me know. This is all over email btw.

Unless I made her mad, it sounds like they were super strict on the budget and had no wiggle room. Which makes me wonder why they even proceeded with interviews after I disclosed my minimum (that being at least $10k more than their budget, and as a starting point)

[Gronnie]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

[JJ-]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

[jeromedawg]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

Company #2 was/is definitely the first choice but the interaction left me wondering if it really is the best place to be at given how things went downhill so fast with the most recent discussions. In terms of still getting the offer had I stuck with the original number, I'm not so sure - the wording she used, verbatim, was: "[hiring mgr] is trying to get approval for the $XXX base. If we are able to do that, would you accept the opportunity?" - so they were actively trying to get approval for it and based on the last response she wrote: "I’m sorry, but we won’t be able to do that. We’d love to be able to do that for you, but even at the $XXX base, it’s over our budget and salary range."

This company was bought out by a larger company last year, so it makes me wonder if the larger company is issuing hardline directives to avoid, discourage or straight up turn down any form of negotiation in favor of the bottom-line. I read on Glassdoor, regarding the larger company that bought the smaller one out, that they aren't very good with internal promotions/raises and stuff like that. So that could just a microcosm that spills over to other areas like salary negotiations (where they're so hard-nosed that they won't negotiate or will avoid doing so at all costs).

[bryan995]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet with #2.  Unclear where you are at in terms of your career progression, but I think it is always wise to select for high-growth / high-opportunity companies, rather than min/max-ing for $10k in base and then suffer in other areas (growth).  Base salary very quickly becomes a small percentage of your overall compensation.  e.g. Base is capped at ~160k at amazon for instance, yet senior engineers can make 600k+.

If this was me - I would consider taking a pause to do some hardcore interview prep and then make another run at 10+ applications. 

https://leetcode.com/
https://leetcode.com/list/xi4ci4ig/
https://engineerseekingfire.com/category/career-development/interview-preparation/

The technical interview bar is nothing more than an unrealistic test to see if this person can a) do the prep needed to pass and b) have a beyond solid understanding of CS/algo fundamentals.  It's unfortunate, but it is just part industry.  There are tons of stories on blind of folks throwing 3+ months into prep to land that 350k role.  Beyond the technical aspect, don't forget personality, leadership, culture talking points.  Those can often out-weigh technical performance for some roles.

Have you considered looking more into tech startups?  They often offer the high risk, high growth, high reward environment that can accelerate FIRE.  Move to the big tech companies only when you are ready to move onto coast-fire ;)

And regarding negotiating numbers, I never quote a number.  I aim to have either multiple in-flight interviews for roles with known comp bands or better yet, an offer in hand.  HR folks have all of the competing comp bands right in front of them once you reference a company + role. 

[jeromedawg]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet with #2.  Unclear where you are at in terms of your career progression, but I think it is always wise to select for high-growth / high-opportunity companies, rather than min/max-ing for $10k in base and then suffer in other areas (growth).  Base salary very quickly becomes a small percentage of your overall compensation.  e.g. Base is capped at ~160k at amazon for instance, yet senior engineers can make 600k+.

If this was me - I would consider taking a pause to do some hardcore interview prep and then make another run at 10+ applications. 

https://leetcode.com/
https://leetcode.com/list/xi4ci4ig/
https://engineerseekingfire.com/category/career-development/interview-preparation/

The technical interview bar is nothing more than an unrealistic test to see if this person can a) do the prep needed to pass and b) have a beyond solid understanding of CS/algo fundamentals.  Beyond the technical aspect, don't forget personality, leadership, culture talking points.  Those can often out-weigh technical performance for some roles.

Have you considered looking more into tech startups?  They often offer the high risk, high growth, high reward environment that can accelerate FIRE.  Move to the big tech companies only when you are ready to move onto coast-fire ;)

And regarding negotiating numbers, I never quote a number.  I aim to have either in-flight interviews for roles with known comp bands or better yet, a offer in hand.  HR folks have all of the competing comp bands right in front of them once you reference a company + role. 

Thanks. I think it would have still been a good role to eventually transition into more of a product management type of position potentially. From this experience company #2 has come off as quite stingy.

That said, I heard back from company #1 finally and they ended up 'nicely' rejecting me - apparently the job description was "changed" by the VP of Engineering halfway through where they, ironically, want the position to be more automation focused (despite it being listed as manual). So that confirms this is where the world is headed. Coding can be "fun" from the perspective of problem-solving but it really depletes me of energy and partly why I don't like doing it.

I guess I should just look into becoming a deckhand and going for my captains' license at this rate... lol. I was getting into the Salesforce stuff so maybe I'll continue down that track.

Serious question though: if you have a background with little practical experience on the automation/coding side and you end up getting "better" at coding (or at least sufficient enough to pass the bars), how do you position yourself for those ultra-high paying and coveted software engineer positions ? I don't know if the mental burnout is worth while for me, but it's intriguing to know "how to get there" lol. All of my friends who are software engineers/developers/programmers have a completely different mindset when they get in front of a computer and one that I, ironically, have much self-doubt with to the point that I'm just not motivated to try to get there and 'compete'

[Gronnie]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

If they are this tight at hiring time then there almost certainly won't be any decent raises or bonuses.

[jeromedawg]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

If they are this tight at hiring time then there almost certainly won't be any decent raises or bonuses.

Ironically, they said they were paying out bonuses to the full or beyond for the past three years. Supposedly last year they paid out 100% (this was amidst COVID and also the big company buyout). The year before was a 109% payout and the year before that was 149%. They didn't say anything about any payouts for the current year but maybe the payout cycle happens in April or whatever so the next one will be next year. I don't like the fact that it's trending downward though LOL.

Outside of that, I think it would have been a relatively 'cush' position. At this point I just want something pretty stable - most of the ppl at the company have been there for a long time. Of course, big company buyouts aren't always a good thing and could completely ruin the culture and give long-timers all the more reason to leave.

[ender]

Serious question though: if you have a background with little practical experience on the automation/coding side and you end up getting "better" at coding (or at least sufficient enough to pass the bars), how do you position yourself for those ultra-high paying and coveted software engineer positions ? I don't know if the mental burnout is worth while for me, but it's intriguing to know "how to get there" lol. All of my friends who are software engineers/developers/programmers have a completely different mindset when they get in front of a computer and one that I, ironically, have much self-doubt with to the point that I'm just not motivated to try to get there and 'compete'

SDET positions can pay plenty as well and be a good transition if that's your goal.

[JJ-]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

If they are this tight at hiring time then there almost certainly won't be any decent raises or bonuses.

Two things keep coming to mind about this thread. One is @jeromedawg  is coming at this from a sinking ship and need to get out. However with that he's also two) trying to push for more and is seeing doors close and trying to learn to negotiate through it at the same time. It's just lacking a bit of finesse.

My opinion on this is he shouldn't be so wishy washy if he's trying to get off a sinking ship and get a decent offer to get out. If that's not the case then of course he likely dodged a bullet here.

[jeromedawg]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

If they are this tight at hiring time then there almost certainly won't be any decent raises or bonuses.

Two things keep coming to mind about this thread. One is @jeromedawg  is coming at this from a sinking ship and need to get out. However with that he's also two) trying to push for more and is seeing doors close and trying to learn to negotiate through it at the same time. It's just lacking a bit of finesse.

My opinion on this is he shouldn't be so wishy washy if he's trying to get off a sinking ship and get a decent offer to get out. If that's not the case then of course he likely dodged a bullet here.

Yea still learning the negotiation side of things of course but honestly I think the response from the company is telling of how they operate at the higher level. If this part of the process provides any insight into that, then I'd be jumping off a sinking ship potentially onto another one heading into an iceberg. The saying "the grass isn't always greener" particularly comes to mind. It might have been "good for a while" until the bonuses start shrinking and the raises and benefits become less (which is basically what my current company is slowly doing). The bigger company that bought them out screams of old school red tape, which is what my current company is bloated with.

I would have gone with company #1 (and I thought I was actually going to get an offer when the recruiter reached out to talk) but the circumstance there is that the VP literally changed the job description mid-flight during the course of my interviews - at least the recruiter was kind enough to let me know and be up front about it. He told me everyone really liked me and the interview rounds went really well but the VP decided to change up the requirements of the position. One thing I didn't appreciate is that the VP, when I interviewed with him, would yawn under his breath/with his mouth covered and noticeably at times would seemingly nod off while I was talking or answering his questions. He must have had a long night (or day) but that is incredibly rude.

I still have company #4 of course, but the recruiter has fallen off the face of the earth (maybe she got COVID?) and I haven't heard anything from them in 2-3 weeks now. I plan on following up again first thing Monday AM.

[Metalcat]

I agree with what other people have said.

Really work on your interview skills. You want to be the person that they don't change the job description on because they want *you*.

You also want to be the person they loosen the purse strings for, because they want *you*.

I've hired a lot of people and when I meet a candidate that I "want*, I'll shift whatever I can to secure them. I'll change the job description if I need to, I'll reassign responsibilities, I'll cut a budget from somewhere else, I'll make it happen.

I've also coached a lot of professionals on interviewing, and top notch interview skills are like a super power.

Never forget that the main purpose of an interview isn't primarily to demonstrate your ability to do the job, it's to prove that you are someone that people *want to work with*.

[JJ-]

Sounds like a place you probably wouldn't want to work at anyways.

I think he said company#2 was his first choice. I'm not sure what happened here but he may have had an offer if he stuck with the original number. When he pushed again that's likely when the recruiter closed the door.

If they are this tight at hiring time then there almost certainly won't be any decent raises or bonuses.

Two things keep coming to mind about this thread. One is @jeromedawg  is coming at this from a sinking ship and need to get out. However with that he's also two) trying to push for more and is seeing doors close and trying to learn to negotiate through it at the same time. It's just lacking a bit of finesse.

My opinion on this is he shouldn't be so wishy washy if he's trying to get off a sinking ship and get a decent offer to get out. If that's not the case then of course he likely dodged a bullet here.

Yea still learning the negotiation side of things of course but honestly I think the response from the company is telling of how they operate at the higher level. If this part of the process provides any insight into that, then I'd be jumping off a sinking ship potentially onto another one heading into an iceberg. The saying "the grass isn't always greener" particularly comes to mind. It might have been "good for a while" until the bonuses start shrinking and the raises and benefits become less (which is basically what my current company is slowly doing). The bigger company that bought them out screams of old school red tape, which is what my current company is bloated with.

I would have gone with company #1 (and I thought I was actually going to get an offer when the recruiter reached out to talk) but the circumstance there is that the VP literally changed the job description mid-flight during the course of my interviews - at least the recruiter was kind enough to let me know and be up front about it. He told me everyone really liked me and the interview rounds went really well but the VP decided to change up the requirements of the position. One thing I didn't appreciate is that the VP, when I interviewed with him, would yawn under his breath/with his mouth covered and noticeably at times would seemingly nod off while I was talking or answering his questions. He must have had a long night (or day) but that is incredibly rude.

I still have company #4 of course, but the recruiter has fallen off the face of the earth (maybe she got COVID?) and I haven't heard anything from them in 2-3 weeks now. I plan on following up again first thing Monday AM.

Hang in there. You'll get it figured out

[jeromedawg]

I agree with what other people have said.

Really work on your interview skills. You want to be the person that they don't change the job description on because they want *you*.

You also want to be the person they loosen the purse strings for, because they want *you*.

I've hired a lot of people and when I meet a candidate that I "want*, I'll shift whatever I can to secure them. I'll change the job description if I need to, I'll reassign responsibilities, I'll cut a budget from somewhere else, I'll make it happen.

I've also coached a lot of professionals on interviewing, and top notch interview skills are like a super power.

Never forget that the main purpose of an interview isn't primarily to demonstrate your ability to do the job, it's to prove that you are someone that people *want to work with*.

I thought it went really well with company #2 but apparently not well enough... It seemed like there was some disconnect between the recruiter and the hiring manager and team as well. The hiring manager told me all comms need to flow through the recruiter only.

In any case, I feel pretty burnt out and exasperated after all this. And frankly I just don't know if I'm cut out for it. Maybe I'll just ride out my current position until I get laid off and then never work again or figure out a bunch of side hustles to scrape by

[Metalcat]

I agree with what other people have said.

Really work on your interview skills. You want to be the person that they don't change the job description on because they want *you*.

You also want to be the person they loosen the purse strings for, because they want *you*.

I've hired a lot of people and when I meet a candidate that I "want*, I'll shift whatever I can to secure them. I'll change the job description if I need to, I'll reassign responsibilities, I'll cut a budget from somewhere else, I'll make it happen.

I've also coached a lot of professionals on interviewing, and top notch interview skills are like a super power.

Never forget that the main purpose of an interview isn't primarily to demonstrate your ability to do the job, it's to prove that you are someone that people *want to work with*.

I thought it went really well with company #2 but apparently not well enough... It seemed like there was some disconnect between the recruiter and the hiring manager and team as well. The hiring manager told me all comms need to flow through the recruiter only.

In any case, I feel pretty burnt out and exasperated after all this. And frankly I just don't know if I'm cut out for it. Maybe I'll just ride out my current position until I get laid off and then never work again or figure out a bunch of side hustles to scrape by

Didn't you just buy a million dollar house though??

[jeromedawg]

I agree with what other people have said.

Really work on your interview skills. You want to be the person that they don't change the job description on because they want *you*.

You also want to be the person they loosen the purse strings for, because they want *you*.

I've hired a lot of people and when I meet a candidate that I "want*, I'll shift whatever I can to secure them. I'll change the job description if I need to, I'll reassign responsibilities, I'll cut a budget from somewhere else, I'll make it happen.

I've also coached a lot of professionals on interviewing, and top notch interview skills are like a super power.

Never forget that the main purpose of an interview isn't primarily to demonstrate your ability to do the job, it's to prove that you are someone that people *want to work with*.

I thought it went really well with company #2 but apparently not well enough... It seemed like there was some disconnect between the recruiter and the hiring manager and team as well. The hiring manager told me all comms need to flow through the recruiter only.

In any case, I feel pretty burnt out and exasperated after all this. And frankly I just don't know if I'm cut out for it. Maybe I'll just ride out my current position until I get laid off and then never work again or figure out a bunch of side hustles to scrape by

Didn't you just buy a million dollar house though??

Haha good point. Looks like it may turn into dual income and a multiple side hustle kind of thing if I can't upskill enough, etc and secure something super stable (at my current income or more) in the near future.

[JJ-]

I agree with what other people have said.

Really work on your interview skills. You want to be the person that they don't change the job description on because they want *you*.

You also want to be the person they loosen the purse strings for, because they want *you*.

I've hired a lot of people and when I meet a candidate that I "want*, I'll shift whatever I can to secure them. I'll change the job description if I need to, I'll reassign responsibilities, I'll cut a budget from somewhere else, I'll make it happen.

I've also coached a lot of professionals on interviewing, and top notch interview skills are like a super power.

Never forget that the main purpose of an interview isn't primarily to demonstrate your ability to do the job, it's to prove that you are someone that people *want to work with*.

I thought it went really well with company #2 but apparently not well enough... It seemed like there was some disconnect between the recruiter and the hiring manager and team as well. The hiring manager told me all comms need to flow through the recruiter only.

In any case, I feel pretty burnt out and exasperated after all this. And frankly I just don't know if I'm cut out for it. Maybe I'll just ride out my current position until I get laid off and then never work again or figure out a bunch of side hustles to scrape by

Didn't you just buy a million dollar house though??

Haha good point. Looks like it may turn into dual income and a multiple side hustle kind of thing if I can't upskill enough, etc and secure something super stable (at my current income or more) in the near future.

Between the house and the sinking ship/layoff situation, please be careful. Keep applying for jobs but don't spend as much mental energy on it. It will become 1000x more stressful for you if you can't keep looking for these jobs but are suddenly forced to put together payments to keep that house without the income to easily pay it.

[Retire-Canada]

In any case, I feel pretty burnt out and exasperated after all this. And frankly I just don't know if I'm cut out for it. Maybe I'll just ride out my current position until I get laid off and then never work again or figure out a bunch of side hustles to scrape by

It seems like you have learned a lot through this process. So if none of these opportunities pan out I'd take a moment to assess what you did well and what you did poorly then come up with a plan of attack before the next opportunity comes your way so that you make the most of it and it is as low stress as possible.

Ultimately [for most people] the job hunting process is a short burst of activity that's over and you'll forget about it after a year or so into the new position. It's not like you have to deal with job hunting for an extended period of time.

It's always better to work from a position of strength [employment] than to be worried about how you'll pay the mortgage. That's certainly not going to lead to a low stress high confidence negotiating position.

[jeromedawg]

Thanks. Taking pause to assess is probably a good idea. I think I hit it off generally well with the people I interviewed with. But I'm weak in my communication with the recruiters, especially when it comes by way of salary negotiation itself. I feel like things were somewhat "lost in translation" between the recruiter and the hiring manager and rest of the team at company #2. I don't know what I could have done to better convey things to the recruiter because it sounds like she didn't get the same "feeling" about me that the rest of the team did. Maybe I needed to get on the phone with her more (most comm was done via email) and talk things out. But reading Fearless, Ask a Manager, etc has gotten me on the "defensive" with negotiations where my main focus has become don't disclose your number DO NOT DISCLOSE YOUR NUMBER DON'T DO IT DON'T DO IT DON'T DO IT - I think because my focus is so much on *this* I don't really know what else to practically do from that point on, and when it gets to the point of actually discussing salary it turns into "tug of war"

Of course, I need to work on the technical side of things a bit more. But higher level/process stuff I was better at. I need to be less wordy too.

That said, I'm starting to think trying to stick out job applications via way of QA isn't going to be an "easy" route. So I'm probably going to spend more time trying to upskill. One of my friends, who is a lead dev, pointed me to some resources. In particular - datacamp. I'm thinking maybe data science is the route I should be heading at this point.

Regarding leetcode, the same friend said to avoid that if I *really* want to learn programming/software dev - leetcode is fine if you already have basic programming background/knowledge and are trying to get into FAANG but if you're pretty weak on coding and scripting it's probably not going to help much (and will likely frustrate you more than anything). When it comes to coding, I'm more of the "look at a template, copy/mess/hack around with it and Google to get it to roughly do what I want it to do" type. Of course, my other friend who works at Amazon said leetcode is great haha. Leetcode will be good to look at after I go through Datacamp, etc I think. And as mentioned too, perhaps it would be beneficial to continue going through the Salesforce stuff I started looking at. I would think picking these up would pay dividends, hopefully.

[Metalcat]

Yes, being adversarial about salary negotiations was likely very off-putting.

If you are going in with the attitude of having to "defend" against someone making you state a number, you are going in defensive, and that's going to be off putting to anyone.

From your writing here you definitely sounded fixated on this and uncomfortable in addressing it. There's a lot more to effective negotiating than just not giving a number. It's not like that's a super powerful negotiating tool, it's part of a collection of negotiating tools.

Also, the main reason people shouldn't give a number is because of three things
1: most people suck at negotiating
2: most people are uncomfortable asking for the top of their value range
3: most people aren't great at evaluating their value in the first place

So the reason it's such a bad idea for a lot of people to state their number is that they're likely to state too low a number.

I still strongly recommend that you practice until you are comfortable with it if you have someone who is very good at this to practice with. Or even consider professional coaching.

You should not underestimate the very literal value of excellent interview skills.

[jeromedawg]

OK... I heard back from company #2. Despite the craziness of Friday's events, they got me approval for the $10k over (their budget) number that we originally discussed. At this point I think I'm just going to go ahead and take the offer. I guess they needed to provide additional justification for the increase but they did get it.

[former player]

Congratulations on getting an acceptable offer from the company that was your first choice.  I'm relieved for you so I can only imagine how you feel.

[cchrissyy]

that's great!

[JJ-]

OK... I heard back from company #2. Despite the craziness of Friday's events, they got me approval for the $10k over (their budget) number that we originally discussed. At this point I think I'm just going to go ahead and take the offer. I guess they needed to provide additional justification for the increase but they did get it.

Congrats. Glad you're taking the offer in hand.

[Paul der Krake]

Recruiters are fickle beasts, exhibit #8492719.

Good job.

[jeromedawg]

Thanks all. The offer is being routed for approval but looks like I'm in. Once it's approved I should be getting an email with the official letter.

At this point do I have any more levers like sign-on bonus, or bump in bonus payout, etc? I don't want to 'unnecessarily' push any more but also wanted to know what else might be reasonable and possible. Current company changed the 401k match to occur end of year (as opposed to quarterly) which sucks....

I'm thinking if anything, wait for the formal letter then ask verbally via phone if there are signing bonus opportunities. I certainly don't want to screw things up with whatever the "approval" process is.

[former player]

Someone has already gone to bat for you once, met your demand and got you more than the company's standard offer.  I think that's a decent outcome and I wouldn't want to be seen to be throwing that back in the face of whoever has already lobbied on your behalf.  I think a better approach would be to accept the offer, settle in to the job and then start looking for bonus/pay rise/promotion opportunities once you've demonstrated your value, which should come well within the year.

[jeromedawg]

Someone has already gone to bat for you once, met your demand and got you more than the company's standard offer.  I think that's a decent outcome and I wouldn't want to be seen to be throwing that back in the face of whoever has already lobbied on your behalf.  I think a better approach would be to accept the offer, settle in to the job and then start looking for bonus/pay rise/promotion opportunities once you've demonstrated your value, which should come well within the year.

Thanks for the feedback. That's my gut feeling as well but just wanted to confirm and see if there wasn't something I missing. Sounds like it's best just to take it and not ask for any more concessions