Philosophically Stuck on the Way to FIRE

[firemusician99]

Hi everyone,

I'm in my late 20s and live in NYC. My full-time job is IT/Informatics. While I'm surrounded by some good, honest, intelligent people in my life, I have yet to run this by anyone working towards FIRE.

I discovered FIRE right after graduating college. I read as many books as I could about personal finance (my favorite is Financial Freedom by Grant Sabatier) and have been sticking to a plan for the last 7 years (including saving at least 50% of any income I receive, earning extra money from additional part-time work, and investing in index funds). I found this forum after recently reading "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin.

After overcoming some bad social and family experiences when I was younger and re-inventing myself multiple times, I realize do not care about a career or climbing a ladder. I recognize that we have to work to make a living, but it is just not important to me, and I would rather work very hard part-time with people and things I love to do than spend 40 hours a week at a full-time job.

Last year, I ended up quitting a job before having another one lined up. It was a toxic, dead-end role that finally took a toll on me physically and mentally. Because of the financial principles I enacted earlier and other lucky circumstances, I am now in a much, much better job with a higher salary with minimal financial losses during my time of unemployment. But the experience further affirmed what I do and don't want from life, and made me care less about the 40-hour workweek. While I'm someone who is known to take initiative and work on myself when I don't like circumstance, I no longer care about doing that at my full-time job. And even though I like my job now, deep down, it's really not what I want from life.

My passion in life is playing music. I am a competent multi-instrumentalist. I play in a few bands and organ on the weekends at church, but nothing full-time. I do also have a passion for technology, but I see it more as a means to enable the parts of my life I really care about: my music, my family and friends, my health, being open to other interests, and meaningful contributions to society. If it were up to me, I would allocate time in my week to get enough sleep, spend quality time with those I'm close to in life, improve myself, and spend the rest of that time helping people through non-profit or church work.

In the last few years, I've been trying to find a path in tech that will allow me to enjoy what I do during the day but gives me the flexibility to work remotely. I'm fortunate that I have plenty of relationships outside of my job that I don't need office camaraderie to fulfill social needs. At all of my tech jobs, I constantly find myself stuck at the office with downtime, but I can't leave.
The other problem I have is I'm having a hard time specializing. I've earned certs in IT Support, IT, cybersecurity, and web development, but the tasks I end up doing at work don't require those skills. And jobs want 8 years of experience in topics that I haven't been able to get practical work experience in, so it's hard for me to know exactly what I want to do.

So, ultimately, here is what I'm trying to ask:

For those who were on the journey to FIRE, how did you find your niche where you felt engaged at work but had the flexibility to do other things during your day and not be stuck at a desk? There was a time in my life where I felt energized, happy to go to work and school, and I haven't felt that way for a very long time. Now that I'm getting older, and I know what possibilities life can offer, I'm trying to get myself back to that place, or something better, again.

I hope this makes sense and thank you for reading.

[Tasse]

For those who were on the journey to FIRE, how did you find your niche where you felt engaged at work but had the flexibility to do other things during your day and not be stuck at a desk? There was a time in my life where I felt energized, happy to go to work and school, and I haven't felt that way for a very long time. Now that I'm getting older, and I know what possibilities life can offer, I'm trying to get myself back to that place, or something better, again.

I think the right job is necessary but not sufficient for this. I have a job that I would say meets these criteria, and I still go through cycles of being less engaged and less happy with it. Sometimes those cycles are driven by annoying stuff about the job, sometimes by factors in my personal life. Point being, there's more than one ingredient to the ideal situation you describe, and it's not something you can achieve once and enjoy forever.

As for how I found that niche... hard to give advice on that one. I was miserable in grad school for 7 years, stumbled into my first post-graduation job with the help of some connections, negotiated firmly to be a fully remote employee, and it worked out for me.

I suppose it's important that I spent that miserable time in school reflecting on what was important for me to enjoy my work. It's surprisingly not related much to "My passion is in this type of science so I need that to love my work." It was more like: I know I want to live near my family, so location flexibility is my top priority. (I've turned down both general ideas for career paths and specific solicitations to apply for jobs that don't have this.) Being able to see my own progress and regularly feel a small sense of accomplishment is absolutely critical for me. And I wanted to take advantage of my training and expertise in some way, but I was open to different ideas of how I'd do that.

I'm not sure if that's helpful. Is there an interest or hobby you can develop that you'd be able to do during downtime at your desk job? Reading (depending on how closely you are monitored)? Taking an online class with headphones? Excuse yourself for a bit of exercise?

[aloevera1]

It sounds like you are still pretty early in your career journey. It's much harder to land a remote job or a job that does not require being stuck at your desk while you are junior.

The reality is that junior people require more training and more "supervision". It is obviously not true for all lines of work but it might be true for your case.

The more experience you have, the easier it is for you to "prove" that you are able to do your work from anywhere without sitting at your desk. You also have more leverage to pick your working conditions.

You are writing this:

The other problem I have is I'm having a hard time specializing. I've earned certs in IT Support, IT, cybersecurity, and web development, but the tasks I end up doing at work don't require those skills.

To me this sounds like the main issue here. If you end up doing much more menial tasks, it may be a dead end in terms of getting remote work options. Some of those tasks may even require mandatory office location (hard to fix a printer offsite if it is not plugged in...).


My advice would be to pick a direction and work towards that direction. Pick something that does not require you to be in the office at least in concept. Get good at it. Pick an employer that already has multiple people working remotely. Negotiate.

Good luck.

[FLBiker]

I'm not sure if this will be particularly helpful (since it's specific to my circumstances) but I'm happy to share how I found peace in the journey to FI (instead of just focusing on the destination).

In hindsight, I feel like my career has unfolded very much without my planning.  I got my first 9-to-5 job by reaching out to a grad school professor I'd liked after spending several years teaching English in Asia.  While in that job, my department was subsumed into a joint venture (that I was initially very opposed to) and this led to a tremendous growth in both size and complexity.  For the next decade or so, as the resident IT / Operations guy, I was promoted into a few different roles, each with an increase in pay.  (It was still pretty modest, though, as I was in higher ed -- I ended up making around $80K).

We then decided we wanted to move to Canada, and at the same time the company that we were joint ventured with posted a BA role.  I asked the hiring manager (who I'd been working closely with for years) if I could do that job from Canada and when he said yes I applied.  I got the job and we moved.  It was great for a number of years, then he moved on and during the third round of layoffs we had since COVID, I was let go.  Now, I'm attempting to go in a totally new direction, but we're far enough along in our FI journey that I have plenty of runway.

For me, the keys to enjoying the journey have been 1) liking the people I worked with 2) never tolerating terrible bosses and 3) approaching each role with a "how can I help" attitude. I also do really like working remotely (which I started in 2020) and it would be tough to go back to face-to-face.  At the same time, for relationship building, face-to-face is much nicer. Again, I don't know how helpful this is (as it isn't remotely a roadmap that could be followed) but it's how things have worked for me.

[berbango]

I wanted to reply just because I feel like I'm on a parallel life path to you - relatively early in the journey, working in tech, musician. I found that I got into a pattern in my jobs out of college: start my job feeling great about it, become disillusioned with it quickly, and then move on to another job hoping to be more satisfied. After doing this a lot, I just don't think I like any job! And I don't think that's abnormal either, I don't think many people like their jobs. I don't doubt that there are a few god tier positions out there that I could enjoy for years, but even those can shift rapidly.

Accepting that my job is going to be just tolerable most of the time eased a lot of spiritual suffering for me - it allowed me to focus on the other parts of my life more. And the good news for us is that having a job will become optional soon, and then we can both go rock out.

[Dicey]

Batsignalling @bluecollarmusician.

[FireLane]

Here's my two cents.

It's perfectly normal that your day job doesn't bring you fulfillment. Corporate work isn't fulfilling or meaningful, that's why they have to pay you to do it. Our culture tells people that we should value work for its own sake, because it serves the interests of the capital-owning class for working-class people to believe that.

It's also okay not to be ambitious. Our culture tells us that you should want to climb the ladder, because, again, capitalism thrives on people who always want to work more, spend more and consume more. But as a Mustachian, you can recognize that propaganda for what it is and reject it.

Climbing the ladder means more work and more stress, and if your job isn't aligned with your passion in life, those are two things you don't need more of. It's okay to not want to advance in your career. You can treat your job strictly as a means to an end, something you do to earn a paycheck that gets you closer to financial independence.

It's a good sign that you have something you're passionate about. That's a critical element of successful retirement: having something that will give your life purpose when you no longer have the structure of an 9-to-5. But I can see how it makes work that much less tolerable to have something else you'd rather be doing.

One possibility is just to work less. For some jobs, especially in IT, part-time work is an option. I went down to four days a week the last few years of my career, and it was great. I'd recommend it to everyone who's able to do it.

However, that tends to be received better when you're a more senior employee. If you're closer to the beginning of your career, as it sounds like you are, you may not have built up enough of a reputation with your employer for them to entertain a request like that. It works better when you're in a position where they won't want to lose you.

If that's not an option for you, then is there any way you could use downtime at work to advance your passions? Do you play an instrument you could bring with you to work, and find someplace near your office where you could go on your lunch hour to practice?

One other thing that helped me pass the time at work was to always have something to look forward to. I kept a list of interesting and fun activities and places to see in my city, and I'd try to check off at least one or two per month. As soon as I got home from a trip, I'd start planning the next one. In your case, it could be a gig, a concert you want to attend, or whatever brings you joy. I found that it made the time pass faster.

[Metalcat]

This requires a lot of introspection and research.

Some folks are best served by having a day job and then passion projects and finding the best way to balance both. Others are served by finding professional projects that they are passionate about that work with their financial goals.

Discovering which is best for you can be a major process. It requires understanding an enormous amount about what your options are and what you need to be happy and thrive.

The question is if there is a way to do the thing you love that can realistically meet your financial goals without ruining what you love about it? If yes, that's the path to pursue, if no, go for a balance of okay but lucrative and satisfying but not lucrative projects.

For example, I love writing. I've written absolutely insane amounts of content, a lot of it here. But I've thoroughly researched avenues for monetizing that enjoyment and they would all suck the joy out of it. So I don't bother trying to commodity that activity.

I also really love talking to people and understanding why they are the way they are. Well, I can get paid 6 figures to do that, it's just a matter of learning shit that makes talking to me valuable. That's easy, because I also like learning shit.

First and foremost, understand what elements of day-to-day life detract from your overall well being and what enhances it. This is crucial. Then start building a compendium of what kind of work fits your lifestyle preference.

Understanding your deal breakers is BY FAR more critical than understanding the upsides of any given job. A single deal breaker can ruin an otherwise "dream" job, while an entirely uninteresting profession can grow into a truly wonderful work experience if it lacks major drawbacks, and you have the capacity to build autonomy, community, and have your own niche projects within it.

One of my very favourite jobs was doing overall work that I didn't really care about, but the team I worked with was frickin' fantastic. Just a phenomenal group of people who worked incredibly well together and had boat loads of fun and laughs. Then I got a literal "dream job" that many competitors would have slit my throat for, and I ended up with pretty significant PTSD and leaving that job was the healthiest thing I've ever done.

That's why pursuing a passion as a career is often a horrible idea, because a lot of passion work involves critical deal breakers that can ruin any joy from trying to monetize that passion. It doesn't matter how delicious a pie recipe is, if it has a teaspoon of feces in it, it's a shit pie.

A true dream job isn't one where you get to pursue your passions every day, it's one that consistently, overall contributes to your overall quality of life. If it doesn't improve your overall quality of life, it CANNOT be a dream job.

I switched careers around 40. I trained for 11 years to do my previous career, which was one of those dream jobs. I actually loved it, and I still miss it. But it had some tablespoons of shit, and I had to bail. I retrained and now have a whole new career. It lacks a lot of what made the old career exciting, but overall, it's so much better for my overall quality of life, and because of that, I have so much more joy about doing it.

I feel more myself in this career and everyone who talks to me about it marvels at how much more joy I have in talking about it, because I'm just happier. I'm not constantly trying to offset the shit part, I'm just really happy doing a cool job that pays me well and fits with my life optimally.

Figure out what you don't want. Figure out what careers fit with what you don't want, then from there, figure out what options actually produce the kind of life you want to be living.

[bluecollarmusician]

Hi, @firemusician99 -
Welcome to the forums :-)

.... have been sticking to a plan for the last 7 years (including saving at least 50% of any income I receive, earning extra money from additional part-time work, and investing in index funds).

Great- that means you are halfway (or nearly!) halfway there! Right?  Or no?  Without more info to go on, it's hard to say- but if you are 7-10 years in on saving and investing 50% of your earnings, the implication is you have saved 7-10 years worth of living expenses.  Though the market sucks at the moment, you should be in great shape!

I would rather work very hard part-time with people and things I love to do than spend 40 hours a week at a full-time job.

:-) Sounds good.  Why not do that?

And even though I like my job now, deep down, it's really not what I want from life.

Could you explain this more? Do you mean you are doing a job that doesn't align with your identity? Or you think/feel your job should align with your identity, and this doesn't?  Certainly nothing wrong with doing a job that's not "you" but sounds like you would rather make less money doing something that feels more like 'you' than make more money doing something that feels like "someone else's job?  Is that it?

If it were up to me, I would allocate time in my week to get enough sleep, spend quality time with those I'm close to in life, improve myself, and spend the rest of that time helping people through non-profit or church work.

? So why not do that? Seems like you should be able to do all of those things while working a full-time job? Lots of church work, especially for music ministers (a good gig for a multi-instrumentalist.) Also lots of work in the non-profit sector or through churches helping people.  One of my best friends had a great job (read that he enjoyed, though he didn't make a ton of money) working for the Episcopal church when he moved to NYC using skills he had as an artist and graphic designer.  He enjoyed doing what he was good at (art/graphic design) instead of designing endless layouts for a faceless ad firm.

For those who were on the journey to FIRE, how did you find your niche where you felt engaged at work but had the flexibility to do other things during your day and not be stuck at a desk?

Hmmm... well for me, a lot of finding my niche was working my butt off at every opportunity, and finding over time that there was a certain niche where I tended to excel, that paid ok, and had elements of the lifestyle I enjoyed.  So for me- the the focus was to work on whatever was in front of me and take great pride in doing it very well.  Sometimes it was something I was "passionate" about, sometimes not- but in the end finding a sort of "flow" in my own desire to create something well done has been what's led me a certain level of success. A lot of my "hobbies" turned into income sources.

If you feel stuck at your desk, maybe there is an alternative job or skill set that you can hone by getting away from your desk?  Everything is a value proposition.  If you create value with what you are doing money tends to take care of itself.

I think having a good "job" is much like being in any relationship- people tend to focus on finding the "right job" or person instead of being the "right person." 

My passion in life is playing music.

Oh, boy- passion. :-o To stick with the relationship metaphor- passion is not a "forever" thing.  And no matter how much you love/enjoy/"passion" music- just like any other feeling in life there will be ebb and flow.

Having a career doing something you love is magic.  But it's also still a job. You probably don't believe me.  Or if you do it's a hypothetical sort of way without really trusting me. 

I am here to tell you that without doubt even if you made a crazy living, playing music that you love, with people that you love- there would still be days where you had to punch the time clock.  Just like there are days when you wake up to the absolute love of your life- your dream spouse and partner in life when things are a little snippy and annoyed, and you just need a little bit of space and a break.  We're human.  That's how it is.

Passion has ebb and flow. It's ok, it's normal.

If you don't like your job, and want a different one- get one.
Or don't really- if you have 7-10 years of living expenses saved you have a ton of options available.  But whatever you do - job or not- work your butt off at it.  Pursue it relentlessly- you don't stop working just because you don't need money ;-) You'll be working on something- whether it's building relationships, cultivating skills, learning and growing...

[VanillaGorilla]

I have various random thoughts on most topics, including this one.

One thought is that even if you're going to quit as soon as you're FI, spending 10 or 15 or 20 years working a job you absolutely hate just so you can quit is a pretty terrible way to live your life. FI, properly done, involves working a job you like for a decently long time, living a more efficient lifestyle than most, so after 10 or 15 years you have more options than you otherwise would. It gives you breathing room to escape a bad work situation, bad life situations, medical challenges, family problems, all sorts of stuff well beyond not working your job. So make sure you're not working a job you hate - find a job that you like.

Another thought: most things that you love can also become things you hate. I know a number of people who participate in a niche activity that my wife does professionally and I do recreationally (intentionally left vague for anonymity). She knows lots of people who tried to make that passion their career, and a number of them hit middle age underemployed, or broke, or exhausted, or generally unfulfilled. Some are now finding new careers to pursue, and I'm excited for them! Making money is fun! Contributing to the world is fulfilling. Learning new skills is rewarding, overcoming new challenges is satisfying. If you can lean into your day job and find what's meaningful about it and focus on that, drudgery (inevitable with any job, not to mention every hobby, passion, relationship, etc) becomes easier to bear.

Final thought: you're relatively young. You have a lot of life ahead of you. If you're truly passionate about music, get on that! Plenty of artists worked day jobs to make ends meet. You have 24 hours a day, so you have at least four hours to devote to music every day. I figured this out early on at my first job - I was going to prioritize my recreational passion over work in the morning, so I did, and quit going to early meetings. I generally worked hard and delivered great results. Nobody even noticed.

A number of FIRE influencers have written about their experience of the FI Fallacy - the thinking that you can't do [thing] until you're no longer unencumbered by your 9-5 job. The Mad Fientist did this with music, many people also do so with health and fitness. The truth is that you're probably less encumbered by your job than you think. If you're honestly passionate about [thing] you'll find a way to pursue it. Note: this does become less true with age and responsibility, but honestly, anybody in their 20s or 30s without kids has a lot of time on their hands, even if they don't appreciate it.

[roomtempmayo]

Lots of good advice above, and I'll just add that most good jobs are going to require that you work hard for a number of years to get into them.  If you check out in your 20s, you'll never get past the entry level stuff.

My advice is to find something that interests you and seems to have a decent future, then throw yourself into it.  If you work your butt off for ~5 years getting really good at it, you'll have the options you want.  But most people don't get those options until they have significant experience and expertise.

[GuitarStv]

I've never worked a job that I loved.  The nature of work (routine, forced to someone else's schedule, forced to prioritize thing I don't agree with, pointless meetings) tends to make anything I do not all that lovable long term.  I've worked a few jobs that I hated though, and I would never again spend time trying to stick with one of those, no matter the money.  What you're really looking for in work is:
- something you're competent at
- something that's occasionally challenging and occasionally easy
- some place where you get along with the people you work with/for
- something you don't hate, and occasionally find interesting
- something that doesn't take more than 8 - 9 hrs a day, and doesn't require regular overtime/after hours work

That's pretty much it.  With a tolerable job like that you can slog through for decades while living your real life happily after hours.

[Metalcat]

Lots of good advice above, and I'll just add that most good jobs are going to require that you work hard for a number of years to get into them.  If you check out in your 20s, you'll never get past the entry level stuff.

My advice is to find something that interests you and seems to have a decent future, then throw yourself into it.  If you work your butt off for ~5 years getting really good at it, you'll have the options you want.  But most people don't get those options until they have significant experience and expertise.

This is very true. I absolutely love my current career, the path I took to get to a place as cushy as I'm in took a ridiculous amount of commitment, expense, and thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of unpaid labour.

[VanillaGorilla]

It's also worth noting that many people do a poor job managing themselves at work. Particularly when you're FI, or at a minimum, have FU money, you can advocate for yourself, and act like a union of one.

• Emphasize the Pareto Principle: focus on the 20% of work that delivers 80% of the value
• When possible, don't do things that you're bad at, uninterested in, or are a waste of time
• Advocate for yourself. Emphasize your contributions. Don't let others take credit for your accomplishments.
• Take your PTO.
• Don't work overtime unless it really benefits the above 20%.
• Continually expand your skillset. If you don't have anything to do, find something to do or find something to learn.

[Log]

I'll plug Cal Newport's podcast Deep Questions, it sounds like it would be exactly the kind of advice you need to hear. He talks a lot about working backwards from the lifestyle you want your career to enable, rather than trying to work towards some "grand goal." The podcast can get repetitive, but they put in good chapter markers so it's easy to skip to the next section in any given episode.

[firemusician99]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful, honest, non-judgmental responses!

The common theme I got from all of you was (a) this is normal, (b) I’m young and the hard work now will pay off, but it’s going to take time, and (c) there's a healthier way to think about this.

The truth is, I have a history of working hard and giving my all to the task at hand, and I’ve been consistently viewed as a good employee at any job I’ve had. My last job burned me out, and that’s a large reason to why I say I don’t care anymore. But you’re right – it is possible, and it would be better for me, if I “focus on working on whatever is in front of me and take great pride in doing it very well.”  After I quit that job, I felt as if a lot of the work I had done up to that point was for nothing, and that's not true.

The truth is, there are many good things about my new job – actually, it fits the criteria from @GuitarStv spot on – and reflecting on what you all wrote shows that there’s a lot I could learn from and contribute to this job to get me closer to where I want to be.

A lot of you asked if I could use downtime to work on other skills. That’s what I did a lot at my last toxic job, and it helped pass the time. A lot of the courses I took (mostly web dev) are now helping me with a cool project I'm working on in my current role. I can also do that at this job, too, but feel a bit awkward doing it since I'm the new guy. But the other cool thing about this job is that I'll get the chance to work hybrid, so I'd be able to use the downtime better at home while still getting all my work done.

And even though I like my job now, deep down, it's really not what I want from life.

Could you explain this more? Do you mean you are doing a job that doesn't align with your identity? Or you think/feel your job should align with your identity, and this doesn't?  Certainly nothing wrong with doing a job that's not "you" but sounds like you would rather make less money doing something that feels more like 'you' than make more money doing something that feels like "someone else's job?  Is that it?

Yes, that’s at the core of what I’m thinking – I would rather make less money doing something that feels more like "me." But, yes I can (and do) these things now, but my ultimate goal would be to do that more often and with more flexibility.

It doesn't matter how delicious a pie recipe is, if it has a teaspoon of feces in it, it's a shit pie.

This is one of the wisest things I’ve ever heard.

I'll plug Cal Newport's podcast Deep Questions, it sounds like it would be exactly the kind of advice you need to hear. He talks a lot about working backwards from the lifestyle you want your career to enable, rather than trying to work towards some "grand goal." The podcast can get repetitive, but they put in good chapter markers so it's easy to skip to the next section in any given episode.

Thank you for recommending – I’m a huge fan of Cal’s books and philosophy and will check this out!

[Metalcat]

It doesn't matter how delicious a pie recipe is, if it has a teaspoon of feces in it, it's a shit pie.

This is one of the wisest things I’ve ever heard.

I get paid very well to say things that resonate with people ;)