Author Topic: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?  (Read 13805 times)

wealthviahealth

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Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« on: March 29, 2014, 04:39:57 PM »
One of my side hobbies/hustles is collecting/ selling apple computers.
I love that many of these are timeless and that a 2007 imac still looks modern today.
They also hold their value much better than pcs.


I no longer own new apple computers and instead just bounce from one good deal to the next on these older machines.

How old is your oldest mac and is it still going strong?

imustachemystash

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 04:44:49 PM »
I have a 2009.  Some pieces on the exterior have broken (the bottom peeled off, and the case got a crack).  I live near the Mac store and they replaced the parts for free each time.  I just added more memory because it was running pretty slow.  It's running like a new computer now!

plantingourpennies

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2014, 04:54:06 PM »
We tend to move them from primary use to secondary use after we've had them about 7 years.  G4 Powerbook from 2005 was replaced in 2012, and early 2007 BlackBook was just replaced for everyday use and became a music server. 

Primm

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2014, 04:57:46 PM »
My 2005 iMac was replaced in 2011 with a Macbook Air + monitor + external hard drive setup, so my laptop is the only computer I have. And it's still going like new.

beltim

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2014, 05:00:32 PM »
I've actually never had a Mac die.  The oldest one I have in regular use now is a 2003-era G5 tower.  And where I work uses several G3's to run some specialized software (and until this year, we had one 1990-era Mac Classic still running some specialized software).

Primm

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2014, 05:03:07 PM »
I've actually never had a Mac die.  The oldest one I have in regular use now is a 2003-era G5 tower.  And where I work uses several G3's to run some specialized software (and until this year, we had one 1990-era Mac Classic still running some specialized software).

TBH, my 2005 didn't die, I just wanted an upgrade (hey, 3 years ago I didn't know about MMM, in my defence!). The 2011 will be going until goodness knows when.

plantingourpennies

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2014, 05:08:47 PM »
I've actually never had a Mac die.  The oldest one I have in regular use now is a 2003-era G5 tower.  And where I work uses several G3's to run some specialized software (and until this year, we had one 1990-era Mac Classic still running some specialized software).

TBH, my 2005 didn't die, I just wanted an upgrade (hey, 3 years ago I didn't know about MMM, in my defence!). The 2011 will be going until goodness knows when.

The only one we've really had that totally died was the 2000 Mac Cube.  That became a fishtank in 2007?  2008? 

seattlecyclone

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2014, 05:38:29 PM »
I have a 2004 Mac mini that still works perfectly. It's the only computer in the house with a working optical drive, so we still use it occasionally when we need to read a disc for some reason.

James

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2014, 05:50:21 PM »
I have a 6 year old iMac that has a dead hard drive, so I just run it off of an external hard drive. Runs slow, but works for the kids. Keep meaning to replace the internal drive, but never get around to it since it works.

ketchup

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2014, 06:24:09 PM »
I had a 2000-era Powerbook I got for free that works but has a dead battery.  Screen likes to fall down too.  I gave it to my mom last year and she seems to like it for the basics.

We've got a few pretty-medieval-looking computers running DOS/Windows 3.11 at work connected to some legacy hardware.  We get a hard drive failure every so often, but they keep chugging along.

marblejane

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2014, 06:27:47 PM »
My current MacBook Pro is from 2009- I passed down the white MacBook from 2006 to a college student. Battery had to be replaced but it is still working fine.

golfer44

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2014, 06:55:15 PM »
My current MacBook Pro is from 2009- I passed down the white MacBook from 2006 to a college student. Battery had to be replaced but it is still working fine.

Same. (weird)

burly

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2014, 08:36:04 PM »
I have a 2008 iMac that I just put a 3TB hard drive in... However, it is starting to occasionally freeze now and then... (pre and post rebuild)

the fixer

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2014, 08:41:26 PM »
2006 MacBook, the black one. Over its life I have replaced the battery and one of the display hinges which broke when I fell off my bike sometime in 2007. After that operation the builtin mic no longer worked, sadly. I recently replaced the dying hard drive with an SSD.

OS X started to run poorly on it a few years back, and then when Mountain Lion came out they dropped support for it entirely. I ran Ubuntu on it but it couldn't keep up with only 2 GB of RAM; now I run Lubuntu and it works great.

cdub

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2014, 09:30:02 PM »
I have an 2007 MacBook Pro 17inch... but honestly I rarely use it anymore. I'm loving my Chromebook. Best computer I've ever owned.

Albert

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2014, 02:55:37 AM »
Mine (McBook pro) is only 2 1/2 years old, works perfectly and I hope will continue to do so for at least another 3-4 years. I also have the first generation iPad (early 2010) which also works fine, but I don't use it as much as I used to. Now mostly when I travel and want to limit a weight I carry around.

fixer-upper

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2014, 03:36:06 AM »
I have a 2008 iMac that I just put a 3TB hard drive in... However, it is starting to occasionally freeze now and then... (pre and post rebuild)

I had that problem when my HDD was going out (on a 2007).  It runs beautifully with a new SSD and some additional RAM.  The SSD was a huge improvement in relation to boot time and I love not being able to hear it run.  :-)

scottydog

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2014, 05:49:17 AM »
Our everyday computer is a 2006 iMac (intel) that I upgraded to its maximum of 3 Gb RAM a couple of years ago.  It's slow for video editing, and for the photo book software my wife likes.  Good idea to replace the HDD with an SSD.  I might try that if/when our HDD dies.

Does anybody here use an older Mac for iOS development?  I've been wanting to give it a try just to have some fun.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2014, 06:02:47 AM »
I got less than six years out of mine! My '08 MacBook bit the dust last month. The entire top case went bad (that's the keyboard/trackpad part) and Apple doesn't even make it anymore, so I would have had to order it on eBay and find someone who could install it. I don't have the computing chops, so I replaced with a PC for half the price. It was too bad, because the MacBook still did everything I needed, but I do find that I have fewer compatibility issues now. (I do a lot of collaborating on very involved Word documents.)

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2014, 06:36:20 AM »
My writing computer is a PowerMac with the first-gen Cinema Display. I bought it used a while back and quite like it. It's challenging finding legacy software still written for PPC cores but it runs a fork of Firefox and Scrivener, which is all I need.

It is from 2002, if I remember correctly.

I keep a Windows laptop from about 08 around for websites and software that just don't run well on the old machine. Eventually I will go all-Mac but tool and bike upgrades come first. I've gone from a semi-competitive overclocker to running ancient machines like this in little over a year.

wealthviahealth

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2014, 06:50:15 AM »
I have an 2007 MacBook Pro 17inch... but honestly I rarely use it anymore. I'm loving my Chromebook. Best computer I've ever owned.

I just sold my macbook pro retina ( loved the thing but I truly didnt need it) and picked up a used chromebook for
$100. This is likely the single best technology choice I have ever made.  I think most of us think we "need" something more than "just a chromebook" but in all honesty almost everything I do on a computer is web based.

That being said I still love Apple computers and am always on the lookout for a dirt cheap on on Craiglist or ebay.
The general consusenus seems to be that imacs/power macs/ mac minis, etc all hold up better over time that their mobile counterparts such as the macbooks, powerbooks, macbook pros.

BlueMR2

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2014, 07:11:28 AM »
Sold my Apple II+ just a few years ago, last I heard it was still going strong.  Those were good solid machines that last a long time.

I've not had such great luck with newer Apples.  Seems like their quality took a dump when they switched from high-end components to the same consumer grade stuff that eversbody else uses.  At this point I no longer have any Apple computers.  Sold off what I had that was working and scrapped the rest.  Not sure if I'll buy them again or not.  For a desktop I can do better building my own (both on quality and cost).  In the laptop arena Lenovo has them beat on quality and price now.  The new Windows smartphone blows away the iPhone.  I'll give the nod to Apple on the tablets though.  They reign supreme there.

Dulcimina

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2014, 10:20:23 AM »
I have a 2006 iMac.  Apart from upgrading the OS, I haven't had any issues.  Before that I had an iBook that I bought used in 2003.  Before that, I had a Mac IIci that I bought used in 1994.

the fixer

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2014, 10:26:09 AM »
I got less than six years out of mine! My '08 MacBook bit the dust last month. The entire top case went bad (that's the keyboard/trackpad part) and Apple doesn't even make it anymore, so I would have had to order it on eBay and find someone who could install it.
What happened to the laptop? I'll bet I or several other people on this thread would give you a reasonable price for it.

Albert

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2014, 10:55:43 AM »
6 years is not fantastic, but still above average. My previous two PC laptops lasted about 5 years each (dead display for one, hard drive for the other).

On a side note, I'm a bit surprised that many of you still have desktops. For me one laptop plus a tablet is more than sufficient. I prefer a laptop because I travel a lot, I don't like to be tied to one place in the apartment and there is no way I could justify buying two separate computers.

innkeeper77

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2014, 11:13:51 AM »
6 years is not fantastic, but still above average. My previous two PC laptops lasted about 5 years each (dead display for one, hard drive for the other).

On a side note, I'm a bit surprised that many of you still have desktops. For me one laptop plus a tablet is more than sufficient. I prefer a laptop because I travel a lot, I don't like to be tied to one place in the apartment and there is no way I could justify buying two separate computers.

The preferring a laptop is quite legitimate, but many (including myself) prefer desktops because A) The components last longer (they are larger, and less susceptible to overheating) B) Replacement components are cheaper and more standardized (a laptop motherboard is very specific, a desktop motherboard is less so, it still has to be compatible but you have dozens of options that will all work) and C) they are cheaper.

Also, 5 years is pretty standard for a hard drive. You could easily have bought a new hard drive and kept using that laptop.. (displays too. I have fixed multiple laptops by just putting a loose display cable back in place, and a couple with new LCD's)

On topic, the only mac I have had experience is my wife's 2010ish macbook pro, which had a bad motherboard that fried multiple hard drives before apple replaced the motherboard. It still works now, but the trackpad button doesn't physically click anymore.. I am personally more of an IBM thinkpad person for my laptops (sadly Lenovo bought them and they aren't as good anymore)

LucyBIT

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2014, 11:39:22 AM »
I have a 2005 iBook that still functions. I don't use it very much, because it's slow (low RAM) and my fiance has a newer (than the iBook) MacBook and his parents just gifted us another MacBook, so we use those. It's not worth trying to speed up the iBook with these perfectly serviceable MacBooks lying around, so I haven't bothered, but it still works if you're patient (fiance is not lol).

Albert

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2014, 11:48:48 AM »

Also, 5 years is pretty standard for a hard drive. You could easily have bought a new hard drive and kept using that laptop.. (displays too. I have fixed multiple laptops by just putting a loose display cable back in place, and a couple with new LCD's)

Sure, and if the money situation were tight I would have done so. There were also other small problems plus my new laptop is much lighter. In fact I bought my iPad 4 years ago exactly because carrying around my old slow laptop was too much of a pain. I gave it away to a recycling service, perhaps those guys did something useful with it.

hoodedfalcon

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2014, 02:39:49 PM »
2008 MacBook. Battery needs to be replaced/computer has to be plugged in at all times. It's pretty glitchy, will freeze regularly, etc. Yesterday this update for Mavericks popped up, so like a good little bunny I clicked for it to update. An hour later an error message pops up saying my hard drive is damaged and I can't install. Okay fine, I say, thinking I could just not install Mavericks and be okay. Turns out it wiped my old OS first. So, nothing. After many hours spent trying to restore via all the ways folks on the internet tried, I decided it was a lost cause. I had to erase and reinstall OS X. The worst part? My last external drive update failed. And for some reason the last time machine update listed was for last summer. So I lost all my financial spreadsheet data for the last 9 months. HEARTBREAKING, I tell ya.

I am pretty sure my next computer is going to be Windows. Not sure I need a Mac, not sure it's worth the money. Yeah, they look good, but I don't find them as intuitive as folks claim.

cdub

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2014, 02:45:18 PM »
I am pretty sure my next computer is going to be Windows. Not sure I need a Mac, not sure it's worth the money. Yeah, they look good, but I don't find them as intuitive as folks claim.

Take a look at a Chromebook - they're cheap and super fast and everything backs up automatically in the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing data. And they get faster over time and are 100% immune to viruses by design. Acer has a very good model for just $199.

And you never ever ever have to worry about software updates like the above problem you mentioned. It's all done seamlessly in the background.

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-C720-Chromebook-11-6-Inch-2GB/dp/B00FNPD1VW

Silvie

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2014, 02:48:28 PM »
My 2009 white MacBook just died last week. Replaced it with a MacBook Air.

hoodedfalcon

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2014, 03:27:02 PM »
I am pretty sure my next computer is going to be Windows. Not sure I need a Mac, not sure it's worth the money. Yeah, they look good, but I don't find them as intuitive as folks claim.

Take a look at a Chromebook - they're cheap and super fast and everything backs up automatically in the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing data. And they get faster over time and are 100% immune to viruses by design. Acer has a very good model for just $199.

And you never ever ever have to worry about software updates like the above problem you mentioned. It's all done seamlessly in the background.

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-C720-Chromebook-11-6-Inch-2GB/dp/B00FNPD1VW

Wow. That looks interesting! I will take a look. I really don't know anything about Chromebooks, but I am super intrigued. Thanks cdub!

cdub

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2014, 03:31:54 PM »
I am pretty sure my next computer is going to be Windows. Not sure I need a Mac, not sure it's worth the money. Yeah, they look good, but I don't find them as intuitive as folks claim.

Take a look at a Chromebook - they're cheap and super fast and everything backs up automatically in the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing data. And they get faster over time and are 100% immune to viruses by design. Acer has a very good model for just $199.

And you never ever ever have to worry about software updates like the above problem you mentioned. It's all done seamlessly in the background.

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-C720-Chromebook-11-6-Inch-2GB/dp/B00FNPD1VW

Wow. That looks interesting! I will take a look. I really don't know anything about Chromebooks, but I am super intrigued. Thanks cdub!

They're super awesome. The best part is that you can run Linux on the side at the same time and even run Windows apps in Linux through WINE. I've even gotten mine to run YNAB. :)

http://mortgage-payoff-club.com/2013/11/05/i-love-ynab-i-adore-chromebooks-heres-how-to-install-ynab-on-a-chromebook/

dobatseatcats

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2014, 03:46:47 PM »
2008 Macbook Pro, still running decently though it's slowed down some. I have to keep it plugged in all the time because the battery runs down really fast and the whole thing craps out if the charge goes below 75% or so.

Other than one repair for the video card (which according to my friend who works as a genius at the Apple store was a known issue with this model), it's served me very well.

janetaz

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2014, 12:11:10 PM »
I had a mac mini from 2005 and it just kept slowing down.  I didn't really mind it at first, since I was only on it for email and reading online.  I took it to a mac store that has been around for a long time.  The man actually said that the mac wasn't like a washing machine! LOL

They were able to transfer my stuff over to a "new" (to me) 2010 mac air that I bought from them.  They had to take apart the mac mini and it was completely covered in dust!!!  They said that it was pretty common here in the southwest.  I suppose if I had lived in a more reasonable climate, it may have lasted even longer. 

Just in case anyone needs a great mac store for repairs, upgrades, purchasing used macs, etc. in Tucson, AZ (they may service macs out of state, not sure)....here is the link:  www.simutek.com

They were really great, helped me out, and found a reasonably priced replacement in the end. 

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2014, 05:16:05 AM »
I've got a late-2008 MacBook Pro that I bought five years ago.

A year or two back I replaced the HDD with an SSD, bumped the RAM up to 8GB and put a new battery in it. Still works fine :)

Sure, a new, lighter, more retina-y model would be nice, but honestly, I don't need it.

madage

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2014, 06:25:04 AM »
2006 original (Core Duo) Intel 20" iMac. Still going strong. I've contemplated installing an SSD and upgrading to a Core2 chip, but it just keeps humming along so I don't see the point. Also have a 2009 13" MacBook Pro in the house that does I upgraded to an SSD about a year ago. Amazing to think that our "new" Mac is darn-near five years old now...

My only concern is the lack of software and security updates for the iMac. Even Chrome has recently announced the end of updates for 32-bit Mac hardware. I'll be transitioning to the MBP for my secure online activities. The iMac is still handy for the simple flash games my kids like to play.

samburger

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2014, 07:00:50 AM »
I have a 2007 MacBook that I benched for a Pro last year. I run heavy programs all day for work, so I couldn't afford to fuss with the '07.

It's still in reasonably good shape. I'm planning to wipe it, replace some parts, and turn it into a windows machine.

Nissykins

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 03:47:25 AM »
We're in the process of replacing my husband's 2006 MacBook with a Mac mini we purchased just last night. 2006 computer was still kicking, but was starting to make scary noises, needed to be plugged in as battery no longer held a charge, was unable to run certain software, etc.  I hated spending the money on a new computer, but hope we will be able to amortize the cost of this one over eight years, too.

SEdude

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2014, 11:32:06 AM »
I have an 05 mac mini and 05 ibook, both still running with original parts (except I added another stick of ram into the ibook). The mac mini is used as a network music server, and the ibook is used as a general web browsing machine out in the living room.

I also have a late 08 aluminum macbook which I've upgraded a lot (put in 8gb of ram and a hearty SSD). It still feels as fast as the day I got it, and I don't think I'll need to buy a new computer for a pretty long time.

Katnina

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2014, 01:20:06 PM »
I replaced my 2005 MacBook in 2013 with a refurbed MacBook Air, bought from Apple online.  My 2005 MacBook started sucking in 2012, but I kept hoping I could nurse it through its battery & slowness issues...I couldn't.
Love my still-new-to-me Air and hope this one lasts til 2020!

iwanttobelive

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2014, 02:49:12 PM »
My 2010 Macbook pro recently died. It wouldn't take a charge/turn on anymore.

I replaced it with a cheap Walmart laptop with Windows 8.1. It was definitely a downgrade but, i'm making it work. I didn't have the money to purchase another Apple.

CommonCents

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2014, 03:36:14 PM »
Our 1985 Apple IIE lasted until my junior year of high school, 1996...  Died when I was finishing up a report.  Only time my mom ever helped out on a report, she felt guilt I lost everything I had worked on until that point.

oldtoyota

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2014, 03:38:42 PM »
Computer sales are down overall. This is because the incremental improvements to the machine are not as enormous as they once were. Another reason is that the machines last longer.

Mine is four years old.


$200k

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2014, 05:09:17 PM »
I've got a Black Macbook from 2008 that has seen daily use for the past 6 years.  I've had to replace the battery and the charger.  I'll probably swap in an SSD this year, but will continue to use it until it dies.

Supertaster

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2014, 07:05:58 PM »
My first computer was an Apple 2 GS. My parents bought it used in 1993 (I think it was made in '86). I was at my parents house a week ago and booted it up to play some Oregon Trail. She's still going strong.

BrooklineBiker

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2014, 07:12:16 PM »
Hi,
I have an early 2009 MacBook. I have added ram (out of pocket expense), replaced the motherboard and keyboard (under warranty), and replaced the hard drive and the battery (out of pocket). The machine is running pretty slow these days and I fear it may be low on memory. I may finally be in need of a new machine due to enforced obsolescence by Apple.

JT

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2014, 08:36:34 PM »
Hi

I've got an Apple MacBook purchased in 2008, when I was contracting and the expense was tax deductible.  It's still working fine, although the delete button doesn't delete via holding the button down for a long time to delete, say, a sentence - it deletes one character per touch of the button!

Also, the keyboard surround (on the edge near the tracker pad) had to be replaced as it started to crack due to a design flaw in the body.  Apparently there's a permanent replacement of this part  due to this design failure.

One other thing that needed work was the screen.  Being a laptop, apparently the wires to the screen are constantly being worked (ie screen up, screen down) and they partially snapped earlier this year - which caused the screen to flick between normal and blank.

A skin is over the keyboard (since new) to protect from crumbs etc.  And every key (other than the delete) works like new!

The CD, tracker pad, on/off button and camera are still working too. 

Operating system is OS 10.6.8 and have been holding off on upgrading it as I understand the next version will need an update for the Microsoft Office suite. 




travelbug

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2014, 09:15:22 PM »
I have a Mac book pro from 2009 and it's still going strong and is used every day.

The hard drive did collapse but we had that fixed and the data retrieved and it's all good still.

That said, if it died tomorrow and was unfixable, I would buy another one in a heartbeat.



obstinate

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Re: Older Apple computers, how long has yours lasted?
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2014, 06:09:36 PM »
One thing to be slightly careful of. If your mac is really, really old, it will no longer get security updates from Apple. This could lead to your credit card number or bank account info being stolen, which will be much more expensive than the cost of an upgrade.

In this regard, a Windows PC is much more Moustachian. They get updates for longer, and can be had for much less, than macs, while doing the same fundamental thing. Linux pcs are even better.