The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Philociraptor on December 09, 2014, 02:37:58 PM
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Preface/TL;DR: I am a whiny complainypants. I have the bottom 3 portions of Maslow's hierarchy covered but struggle with the remaining two.
Post: Early retirement gives me something to look forward to: a time when I don't have to get up every morning to do meaningless work to enrich someone higher up the chain and provide for my basic needs. While early retirement is still a long way away (conservatively 15 years, though potentially sooner), I find myself thinking about what I'll do in retirement. I've never really had any hobbies or "passions", in high school when I wasn't in class I did a tiny amount of homework, spent time with friends/girlfriends, and played video games (mostly WoW). In college I learned that I was actually quite dumb, but managed to make it through, with spare time spent playing MTG or other games with my fraternity brothers, and drinking to mask my feelings of mediocrity. Now that I've been in the workforce for 3 years, every weekday is a constant: get up, make coffee, get dressed, go to work, do essentially nothing of meaning or consequence, go to Crossfit, go home, eat, clean, shower, sleep. Weekends are usually spent with the wife, friends, and family, working on projects around the house, drinking, and being a couch potato. When I'm bored at work, there is no singular activity I find myself thinking about, nothing other than not being at work. I would like to sleep more I suppose. Question: How have you found hobbies / passions in life?
Oftentimes I'm doing something and stop to think, what is the purpose? Asking that question a few times in a row, I often find that there is no purpose. Question: How have you found purpose in mundane reality?
And finally, it all seems meaningless. Question: What's the damn point?
Sorry for the melodramatics.
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Number one: Video games and card games are something to be passionate about. Even though they're not traditionally considered "productive", that doesn't meant they don't have meaning or give you joy. Video games and card games like MTG are a great fun hobby - although MTG can get disgustingly expensive if you're not careful. So can buying up all the newest and best video games/video cards/consoles/whatever. That doesn't make these things unworthy hobbies. Nothing is an unworthy hobby as long as it's well balanced with the rest of your life, and is something you enjoy. Maybe you should consider that maybe you are passionate about these things, and that there are lots of outlets to make these things more social/profitable/career-like.
Number two: You seem pretty sheltered, by no one's actions but your own. Surviving high school, going to college, getting a job... Uh, "getting married, having a few kids, buying some stuff, retiring to Florida and dying" is how Cards Against Humanity puts it. If you're still trying to figure out who you are and what you like, you might want to try spending every weekend at the Rec Center taking (or teaching?) a class, or at the local community college taking a course in something you find vaguely interesting, like woodworking, guitar making or welding. Either that vaguely interesting thing will catch your attention, or just be another skill or piece of knowledge you've got under your belt. You could also find a local competitive MTG group and get back into that hobby.
Number Two Again: It doesn't sound like you've ever done any travelling, not outside of your bubble or comfort zone. If you have the money and the time, take a trip! And not just around the USA or wherever you live, but to a radically different environment. A different country, where the economy isn't so great. And, you have to actually leave your hotel and talk to regular people. Better yet, don't stay in a hotel at all.
Expose yourself to the world. No wonder you're bored out of your skull by living, it doesn't sound like you're doing any living at all. As I stated above, according to Cards Against Humanity, you're only one step away from dead!
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Preface/TL;DR: I am a whiny complainypants. I have the bottom 3 portions of Maslow's hierarchy covered but struggle with the remaining two.
I've always (well, at least since I first read about Maslow's hierarchy) thought that truly satisfying the first 3 levels (Physiological, Safety, and Social/Belonging)
entitled one to consider the 4th (Esteem) accomplished - at least the self-respect part. Then, with the 4th in hand, you could work on the 5th (Self-Actualization) and not have to worry about fulfilling anyone's expectations but your own.
Do you truly have the bottom 3 portions of Maslow's hierarchy covered?
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You asked the questions in the wrong order. Start with your last one, and it'll all flow naturally from there.
:)
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I think meaning is elusive. Instead I'd ask: What activities put you in a positive mental state?
If we exclude drinking... Sitcoms, gaming, igloo time with the wife...
Number one: Video games and card games are something to be passionate about. Even though they're not traditionally considered "productive", that doesn't meant they don't have meaning or give you joy.
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If you have the money and the time, take a trip! And not just around the USA or wherever you live, but to a radically different environment. A different country, where the economy isn't so great. And, you have to actually leave your hotel and talk to regular people. Better yet, don't stay in a hotel at all.
Expose yourself to the world. No wonder you're bored out of your skull by living, it doesn't sound like you're doing any living at all. As I stated above, according to Cards Against Humanity, you're only one step away from dead!
Thanks for that, I need to give myself permission to game it up sometimes. Traveling has never really appealed to me though, I hate commutes.
Do you truly have the bottom 3 portions of Maslow's hierarchy covered?
I haven't really thought about this. I certainly have a place to eat, sleep, poop, and chill, and the community I live in is pretty safe. I interact mostly with my wife and roommate, a few coworkers each day, and our families on weekends and holidays. There's plenty of love there. Now that you point it out, I should probably find a way to interact with more people.
You asked the questions in the wrong order. Start with your last one, and it'll all flow naturally from there.
:)
I'll think on it. Random thought: I've always sounded out your screen name as "are-bell-spee" in my head.
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You asked the questions in the wrong order. Start with your last one, and it'll all flow naturally from there.
:)
I'll think on it. Random thought: I've always sounded out your screen name as "are-bell-spee" in my head.
90-something% of people do that, in my experience. A Rebel Spy.
:)
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You asked the questions in the wrong order. Start with your last one, and it'll all flow naturally from there.
:)
I'll think on it. Random thought: I've always sounded out your screen name as "are-bell-spee" in my head.
90-something% of people do that, in my experience. A Rebel Spy.
:)
It's the lack of capital letters.
On topic: I suppose MMM has helped me move on from being jealous of other people's money/positions to being jealous of other people's assurance that they are living a life worth living.
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"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide." -Albert Camus
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Maybe the purpose is to challenge yourself with something difficult and then observe yourself achieving it ... or failing ... and ponder the reasons?
Distance yourself a bit from your own brain - the brain which is feeling dispassionate, purposeless, meaningless by default. Realize that finding a purpose is a sort of trick and that it takes a conscious effort. You choose to do X instead of questioning whether X is worth doing. Maybe it's not, don't delve on a "deeper meaning", it's moot! But you still choose to do it, and do it "well", preferably according to some self-invented criteria, just for shits and giggles. Then you watch yourself and become entertained and curious in the process.
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Also, on the point of yourself noticing that you're "dumb" in college: IIRC, there is research on grit showing that people who assume a static version of affairs (as in "I'm dumb" rather than "I'm not smart yet at X") indeed underachieve in the long run. Fatalism is the cause, not the effect of "inadequacy".
You might be "dumb" by some objective criteria (IQ) or by comparison with peers. It might be safe to assume that you won't turn into a genius no matter how hard you try. Knowing your boundaries surely is helpful for survival and life satisfaction. But even so, it's a cardinal error of the "nature vs. nurture" kind to extrapolate from such general insights that you would remain at the current level given increased (self-)training.
Rather, the correct way of approaching "dumb" is that you have to expend more effort than others to obtain a given level of performance, like a car which burns more fuel per mile. Of course, it sucks compared to being "fuel-efficient", but there's a silver lining in that if you actually manage to bring up that extra effort (perhaps by resorting to tools or mental tricks where "brute force" would be sufficient for a highly capable individual), then you can actually exceed the "average" level by far.
The world is full of lazy brilliant dispassionate people. Being brilliant possibly makes you even lazier about developing talents. Being dumb and flexible and clever regarding self-improvement is certainly a better option than being fairly brilliant and lazy and stuck. In particular, if you're dumb but self-aware and still clever enough to make those lazy brilliant people work for you, you can go far in this world, indeed. ;)
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What Raay is referring to is what is known as a Growth vs. Fixed mindset.
It is the main topic of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck: http://smile.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-Success/dp/0345472322
A good TEDTalk summarizing it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc
(As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing.)
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You have endless possibilities of things to do and I would agree that you sounds sheltered/limited experiences. I'm overly practical so I'm not looking for meaning or passion (well, besides DH). I'm just looking to do things that make me and DH happy. My personal thing is dog rescues and rehabilitation. Maybe in a few years I'll find something else that is super interesting to me
If you enjoy gaming, look into exploring new games and/designing your own. Games (not Monopoly or Clue) is a growing business where amateurs and professionals make and sell their own games and have industry conventions. DH and I are enjoying getting into card games, board games, etc and have met some people who work in this industry.
A friend just learned some programming and designed his own app for task management.
It sounds corny but the world is your oyster. You just need to reach out and grab it.
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What Raay is referring to is what is known as a Growth vs. Fixed mindset.
It is the main topic of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck.
...
(As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing.)
Added to Kindle Wish List, along with The Myth of Sisyphus and other essays.
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I take a kind of absurdist or existentialist view of it all.
I like that life is random and has no fixed meaning, and I find it kind of funn (absurd), but I also like that in finding activities and outcomes that provide me with a sense of purpose (helping people, building commnities, seeing the world, enjoying food) my life isn't devoid of meaning.
If you are so devoid of anything that truly inspires you I'd say seek therapy - if you can't walk in the splendour of nature, or lose yourself in a conversation with friends, or be blown away by a beautiful woman, there's a bigger issue than a small lack of direction.
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What Raay is referring to is what is known as a Growth vs. Fixed mindset.
It is the main topic of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck: http://smile.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-Success/dp/0345472322
A good TEDTalk summarizing it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc
(As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing.)
So what are the other two? Don't leave us hanging :)
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When I was a teenager, I felt very frustrated with the standard life trajectory. I asked myself, "If I were to die today, what would I have done with my life? Just go to school?!??" I quit, and began a new path that I've found extremely fulfilling. What drives me? "Help others." Period.
A couple of years ago, I saw that Canada's hero Terry Fox had had the same motivator, saying, “It took cancer to realize that being self-centered is not the way to live. The answer is to try and help others.”
Carry someone's groceries, do legal case advocacy for people who are very marginalized, write a book sharing the hack that has most changed your life, buy an old crappy house and renovate it into beautiful, affordable housing for people that are struggling, develop an App for kids with learning disabilities. When you're stronger/happier/healthier, if it is up your alley consider fostering or adopting a child and totally commit to them.
i.e., Think of an activity you love to do or that you're good at (or both), then figure out a way to help others by applying that skill/talent. Hard for one's life to be devoid of meaning where one's actions deliberately result in a net gain for countless others :)
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As an atheist, I believe there is no meaning to life. We create it.
When I begin questioning the 'meaning' of whatever it is I'm doing, that's an indication I'm headed down the slippery slope of depression. As soon as I notice I'm doing it, I claw my way back up with strategic application of light (sunlight and light at home/work) and physical therapy (exercise), seeking the company of good friends, and being grateful for the life I have, for however long it lasts.
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When I begin questioning the 'meaning' of whatever it is I'm doing, that's an indication I'm headed down the slippery slope of depression.
Yes, I was gonna take things in a similar direction, based on conversations with the depressed people in my life.
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You seem pretty smart to me. You need to appreciate what you have. You graduated from college (look up statistics on college completion rates), you got married and stayed married (look up divorce rates), you are employed etc.
I think of myself as pretty smart but I really struggled in college, finding and keeping jobs, I really wish I was married, and I wish I could spend more time with my family but they're crazy.
Imagine yourself on your deathbed, what do you wish you would have done? Then come back to the present and start working towards those things.
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What Raay is referring to is what is known as a Growth vs. Fixed mindset.
It is the main topic of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck: http://smile.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-Success/dp/0345472322
A good TEDTalk summarizing it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc
(As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing.)
So what are the other two? Don't leave us hanging :)
Seriously!
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Find someone or something to love and love you. That helps.
Find something beautiful. A place, an activity-riding a bike is as about as good as it gets-hiking in beautiful country is up there as well.
Give time and energy to things bigger than yourself. You'll be energized and have a renewed sense of purpose.
Not specific answers per se, but things to follow.
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Carl Sagan says it better than I could:
The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.
But...
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
So then...
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Go for it.
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I have felt the way you're feeling! Unchallenged. Uninspired. Apathetic.
Things that sometimes help me:
-reading fantastic novels (if real life sucks, go some place else! In your mind!)
-setting exercise goals (the mundanity of regular life might be shaken up a little if a year from now I could do 100 push-ups... 90 more than I did today ;) )
-hang out with people that make you have fun (find/make an outgoing friend)
-learn a new skill (I tried a silversmithing class and LOVED it!) there are a lot of low-commitment activities out there)
-seek out natural beauty / nature (supposedly very good for one's psyche)
-read about people that are super poor. The book "The glass castle" is a great read. Or volunteer at a homeless shelter. Do anything that reminds you that being rich and bored is a luxury many people dream of :)
Anyways, I hope something here is helpful! Some of these have worked for me, sometimes.
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I sometimes ask the same questions, but I feel like I'm on the verge of figuring it all out and starting a whole new meaningful existence...good luck!
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Ah, a thread that I could have posted...or version thereof. I can relate to OP, I am 5 years older than you, but I also get what you are feeling. I do disagree slightly though in regards to the "going towards depression" thing. I don't think that's it. An unexamined life is not worth living. I think it's good that you ask yourself those questions. I certainly do. And yes, it's also good to snap out of it sometimes and just get on with life, but in general I don't think there is anything wrong with asking greater questions of meaning and purpose. For me, I have found that I can't settle into a too monotonous life. I need change and I need lots of it and often. So change up your life a bit. And it's fine that you don't know what you want or are passionate about (I have tried to figure that out for more than 3 years now and I still have no clue really). Just apply for a new job in a new city/country and go for it. You are young, so even if it doesn't turn out great, it won't matter in the long run. Or start smaller than that, just sign up for some random activity that you never thought of learning...like sailing or golf or chess or whatever. I have done that multiple times because I think the underlying problem here is quite simple: boredom. So I often sign up for random things, not because I ever had an interest in them, but just because I know it will be a change. Some of those things turned out to not interest me that much in the end, so I dropped them altogether after a few weeks. But over the last 3 years since doing that, 3 new activities have stuck and I have a lot of fun with them.
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I zeroed in on Crossfit.
Crossfit is hard work and lots of dedication to continuously take part in. That seems like a passion (or the beginning of a passion) to me. Why don't you set a crossfit related goal? ie- compete in Crossfit games for the year 201x? Get certified as a trainer so you can help others learn how to lift safely and properly? If you are into that add things like toughmudder,spartan, warrior dash to the mix- though they cost a little bit I absolutely LOVE having them as annual goals and feel great not only training for the event but when it all comes together and you finish is a good feeling- especially when you can share it with friends/sig other.
If you register for tough mudder early enough I think its like $70-$80, however, you will then get coupons for next years bring the cost down to $40-$50. If you get into that scene you can then set a goal to acatually compete in those events (vs just finishing alive).
Always have short, medium, and long term goals that you actively work towards.
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What Raay is referring to is what is known as a Growth vs. Fixed mindset.
It is the main topic of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck: http://smile.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-Success/dp/0345472322
A good TEDTalk summarizing it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc
(As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing.)
Just placed a hold on this at the library. Thanks for the recommendation, Arebelspy.
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I have felt the way you're feeling! Unchallenged. Uninspired. Apathetic.
Things that sometimes help me:
-reading fantastic novels (if real life sucks, go some place else! In your mind!)
-setting exercise goals (the mundanity of regular life might be shaken up a little if a year from now I could do 100 push-ups... 90 more than I did today ;) )
-hang out with people that make you have fun (find/make an outgoing friend)
-learn a new skill (I tried a silversmithing class and LOVED it!) there are a lot of low-commitment activities out there)
-seek out natural beauty / nature (supposedly very good for one's psyche)
-read about people that are super poor. The book "The glass castle" is a great read. Or volunteer at a homeless shelter. Do anything that reminds you that being rich and bored is a luxury many people dream of :)
Anyways, I hope something here is helpful! Some of these have worked for me, sometimes.
Oh god, I just finished "The Glass Castle". I found it to be a very stressful, yet worthwhile read.
I'm struggling with the same lack of passion or purpose since I dropped roller derby, but I'm focusing on the things that I have enjoyed in the past- primarily, learning things. Where I live has a great network of adult education options, so I'm looking into finding an art or dance class that sparks my interest (goldsmithing came up as an option there as well!), and I am also really excited to have just found a language tandem partner to get back into studying foreign language. I have also found it really satisfying to finally use the time to get around to all the projects around my house- selling all of the extra clothes and furniture, building the coatrack we so desperately need, busting through my entire ikea-bag of mending that needed to happen, stuff like that. Maybe start a list with the small things that nag you about your immediate space and start with those, then the motivation to keep accomplishing things and stay on that roll will follow!
And as to travel- I also hate commuting, but travel is my favorite thing in the world. You don't have to be constantly in transit for it to count... go hang out on a beach in Thailand for a month, or hike the Milford pass in NZ, or find your favorite chili crab in Singapore... for me it's about pretty much everything BUT the plane ride. (unless you're flying through asia because on-demand bollywood and kung fu movies are the best).
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When I begin questioning the 'meaning' of whatever it is I'm doing, that's an indication I'm headed down the slippery slope of depression.
Yes, I was gonna take things in a similar direction, based on conversations with the depressed people in my life.
Yep. Whenever DH starts asking what's the point to doing anything, I know he's headed down that slippery slope. Often he has to deliberately stop thinking and just start doing. His mantra is 'take the body and the mind will follow'.
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+1 on Scrubby's recommendation for volunteering. Nothing like seeing those in need to amp up one's sense of purpose in life. If you really want to get badass, volunteer in a 3rd world country.
I may have missed it if someone has already said it, but you might try going to Church, many people find purpose there. I would suggest looking for one that is very active in the community.
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At the risk of offending some folks (which is not my intention) I'm going to offer my two cents. These thoughts and feelings are very familiar to me. As someone who has experience with both addiction and depression, I now draw a distinction between passions / hobbies and distractions. Games, TV shows, drinking, etc. are, in my experience, more distractions than they are hobbies. The hobbies that have brought me lasting contentment tend to be things that bring me into direct experience with actual life, things that heighten my experience of the present moment, as opposed to things that take me away from that (even though those things often feel good in the short term).
For my 20s, my primary hobby was drinking and smoking pot. I also did well in school, got a job, lived overseas for 6 years, got a grad degree, had a few relationships, played in bands, and so on. I was pretty unhappy, though. I got sober when I was 29 (8.5 years ago). For the first couple of years after that, I spent a lot of time playing video games (as I always had done), watching TV, etc. I was still pretty unhappy. Eventually, I started developing healthier (for me, anyways) hobbies. I started hiking, running, biking, stuff like that. I started gardening and (after buying a home) doing DIY projects. In the last year, I got serious about meditation and joined a local mindfulness group. That, more than anything else, has helped my mental state. In general, though, I get much more contentment from hobbies that are beneficial (either for my health, a skill or something tangible) than simply distractions.
So I've made choices to reduce the number of distractions in my life. I play a lot less videogames than I used to (an hour or two a week, if that). I maintain this by having very old systems (PS2 and N64) and a laptop without a good graphics card. To be honest, I wouldn't trust myself around a PS3 or PS4. Similarly, I don't watch a lot of TV. I don't have cable, and my wife and I might watch an hour of something a couple of nights a week. I also deleted my Facebook account and quit playing fantasy football. Part of how I made all these decisions was simply by paying attention to how I felt. With Facebook, for example, I noticed that after 30 minutes on, I almost invariably felt worse than when I started.
Of course, I'm not perfect (and I wouldn't really say perfection is the point). My current distraction of choice (for the last several years, particularly when I'm not feeling great) is binging on comedy podcasts. Overall, though, I spend much less of my life distracting myself than I used to, and that has had a directly correlation to my contentment.
In terms of meaning, I'd say that as my overall mental / spiritual health has improved, this question has troubled me less. My immediate answer, though, would be something along the lines of service / helping others. That's the perspective from which I approach my job, and it has really helped. I don't do anything particularly amazing (database development) but I really try to approach it from a POV of "how can I make things easier for the people around me." In Buddhism (at least as I understand it), we don't talk about meaning as much as we do intention. And, for me, setting an intention like "I'm going to try to ease suffering for myself and those around me" at the beginning of the day can help me keep the proper perspective. And when I start to spin out about something, I can look at it in those terms. Like if I start to get anxious or depressed about something, looking at that situation from the perspective of what can I do to ease the suffering of myself or others in this situation often helps. Gratitude is another great practice for my mental state.
I've learned over the years that, for me, a healthy mental / spiritual state is something I need to work at. For some people, this comes easy, for others its a bit harder. Just like some people struggle more with weight than others. Ultimately, though, I've become grateful for this need, as my life has become much richer as I've developed these practices.
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I may have missed it if someone has already said it, but you might try going to Church, many people find purpose there.
Surely you mean to say that religions and their many "humble servants" hijack the human purpose-seeking behavior for profit and that he shouldn't fall for it.
MOD NOTE: Please stop purposefully trolling. Thanks.
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I may have missed it if someone has already said it, but you might try going to Church, many people find purpose there.
Surely you mean to say that religions and their many "humble servants" hijack the human purpose-seeking behavior for profit and that he shouldn't fall for it.
Or maybe So Close meant to point out how many people he or she had seen that found a real sense of peace, happiness and purpose after finding God. How many people they saw turn away from selfish behavior and towards helping others...at least that's what I've both seen and experienced personally.
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You might enjoy Jane McGonigal's book Reality is Broken. It explains why gaming is so popular and the criteria for engagement in life. If you read it, I'd be interested to know in how it might change how you see and orchestrate your life.
Added to wish list.
As an atheist, I believe there is no meaning to life. We create it.
When I begin questioning the 'meaning' of whatever it is I'm doing, that's an indication I'm headed down the slippery slope of depression. As soon as I notice I'm doing it, I claw my way back up with strategic application of light (sunlight and light at home/work) and physical therapy (exercise), seeking the company of good friends, and being grateful for the life I have, for however long it lasts.
Athiest as well. It bothers me that the trick is not to find actual meaning or purpose, but to distract yourself from the reality that there is none =/
I have felt the way you're feeling! Unchallenged. Uninspired. Apathetic.
Things that sometimes help me:
-reading fantastic novels (if real life sucks, go some place else! In your mind!)
-setting exercise goals (the mundanity of regular life might be shaken up a little if a year from now I could do 100 push-ups... 90 more than I did today ;) )
-hang out with people that make you have fun (find/make an outgoing friend)
-learn a new skill (I tried a silversmithing class and LOVED it!) there are a lot of low-commitment activities out there)
-seek out natural beauty / nature (supposedly very good for one's psyche)
-read about people that are super poor. The book "The glass castle" is a great read. Or volunteer at a homeless shelter. Do anything that reminds you that being rich and bored is a luxury many people dream of :)
Anyways, I hope something here is helpful! Some of these have worked for me, sometimes.
I shall continue my ASOIAF reread, strive to get better and better at Crossfit, spend more time with friends, and go on a vacation soon. Thanks!
+1 on Scrubby's recommendation for volunteering. Nothing like seeing those in need to amp up one's sense of purpose in life. If you really want to get badass, volunteer in a 3rd world country.
I may have missed it if someone has already said it, but you might try going to Church, many people find purpose there. I would suggest looking for one that is very active in the community.
Volunteering is so icky! But I'll look into it, maybe I'll find something that sounds fun. I tend to see religion as intellectually lazy / philosophical suicide (Thanks Areb for the Camus reference, I'm going to read his stuff!), but I'm glad it works for some people.
At the risk of offending some folks (which is not my intention) I'm going to offer my two cents. These thoughts and feelings are very familiar to me. As someone who has experience with both addiction and depression, I now draw a distinction between passions / hobbies and distractions. Games, TV shows, drinking, etc. are, in my experience, more distractions than they are hobbies. The hobbies that have brought me lasting contentment tend to be things that bring me into direct experience with actual life, things that heighten my experience of the present moment, as opposed to things that take me away from that (even though those things often feel good in the short term).
For my 20s, my primary hobby was drinking and smoking pot. I also did well in school, got a job, lived overseas for 6 years, got a grad degree, had a few relationships, played in bands, and so on. I was pretty unhappy, though. I got sober when I was 29 (8.5 years ago). For the first couple of years after that, I spent a lot of time playing video games (as I always had done), watching TV, etc. I was still pretty unhappy. Eventually, I started developing healthier (for me, anyways) hobbies. I started hiking, running, biking, stuff like that. I started gardening and (after buying a home) doing DIY projects. In the last year, I got serious about meditation and joined a local mindfulness group. That, more than anything else, has helped my mental state. In general, though, I get much more contentment from hobbies that are beneficial (either for my health, a skill or something tangible) than simply distractions.
So I've made choices to reduce the number of distractions in my life. I play a lot less videogames than I used to (an hour or two a week, if that). I maintain this by having very old systems (PS2 and N64) and a laptop without a good graphics card. To be honest, I wouldn't trust myself around a PS3 or PS4. Similarly, I don't watch a lot of TV. I don't have cable, and my wife and I might watch an hour of something a couple of nights a week. I also deleted my Facebook account and quit playing fantasy football. Part of how I made all these decisions was simply by paying attention to how I felt. With Facebook, for example, I noticed that after 30 minutes on, I almost invariably felt worse than when I started.
Of course, I'm not perfect (and I wouldn't really say perfection is the point). My current distraction of choice (for the last several years, particularly when I'm not feeling great) is binging on comedy podcasts. Overall, though, I spend much less of my life distracting myself than I used to, and that has had a directly correlation to my contentment.
In terms of meaning, I'd say that as my overall mental / spiritual health has improved, this question has troubled me less. My immediate answer, though, would be something along the lines of service / helping others. That's the perspective from which I approach my job, and it has really helped. I don't do anything particularly amazing (database development) but I really try to approach it from a POV of "how can I make things easier for the people around me." In Buddhism (at least as I understand it), we don't talk about meaning as much as we do intention. And, for me, setting an intention like "I'm going to try to ease suffering for myself and those around me" at the beginning of the day can help me keep the proper perspective. And when I start to spin out about something, I can look at it in those terms. Like if I start to get anxious or depressed about something, looking at that situation from the perspective of what can I do to ease the suffering of myself or others in this situation often helps. Gratitude is another great practice for my mental state.
I've learned over the years that, for me, a healthy mental / spiritual state is something I need to work at. For some people, this comes easy, for others its a bit harder. Just like some people struggle more with weight than others. Ultimately, though, I've become grateful for this need, as my life has become much richer as I've developed these practices.
Thank you for this entire post. Lots of folks echo the helping others out stuff, I suppose I've never really experienced that. Time to seek it out.
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I tend to see religion as intellectually lazy / philosophical suicide (Thanks Areb for the Camus reference, I'm going to read his stuff!), but I'm glad it works for some people.
Have you ever read any religious philosophers? Have you ever "tried" to find God, or have you always rejected it out of hand? I was an agnostic/atheist for many many years, but I had never really made an effort to find God. Once I did, I realized that there are a lot of intellectual, philosophical thinkers out there who are Christians, Jews, etc. There is a lot of deep thinking that you can do even if you believe. Personally, I have challenged my mind a lot more in the years after I found God than I did before.
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+1 on Scrubby's recommendation for volunteering.
To clarify, I would propose that helping others not be limited to volunteering. You can help others while bringing in no money (volunteering), a little bit of gain (free housing, or a small stipend), medium-level income (teaching, etc), or lots of money (law, medicine, etc). All of these paths are legit. The key is not in doing it "for free", specifically (though I believe there are benefits to intentionally doing some of that, too), but rather is in the "helping others". The selected activity can also be the vocation that supports you partially or fully, which also keeps the activity sustainable for you long-term, which is an important consideration in helping others. i.e., Helping others for a long time is even yummier than being able to help others for only short bursts before having to give it up to make money somewhere else.
re: church, since I see that got a bit of a reaction, I will support this option by noting that I am not one iota religious, and yet have found church community to be wonderful! Church communities have given me office space -free- so that I could do ridiculously helpful volunteer work, and have co-developed practices that help me replenish myself between "helping" gigs. So, I +1 this. It's not going to be a fit for everyone, just as any one of case law advocacy, cross-fit, gaming, or renovating crappy buildings into affordable housing isn't going to be a fit for everyone. But as a suggestion of what helps some people experience increased meaning/purpose, it's certainly as legit as any other suggestion.
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At the risk of offending some folks (which is not my intention) As someone who has experience with both addiction and depression, I now draw a distinction between passions / hobbies and distractions. Games, TV shows, drinking, etc. are, in my experience, more distractions than they are hobbies. The hobbies that have brought me lasting contentment tend to be things that bring me into direct experience with actual life, things that heighten my experience of the present moment, as opposed to things that take me away from that (even though those things often feel good in the short term)....
In general, though, I get much more contentment from hobbies that are beneficial (either for my health, a skill or something tangible) than simply distractions.....
So I've made choices to reduce the number of distractions in my life....
I've learned over the years that, for me, a healthy mental / spiritual state is something I need to work at. For some people, this comes easy, for others its a bit harder. Just like some people struggle more with weight than others. Ultimately, though, I've become grateful for this need, as my life has become much richer as I've developed these practices.
^ +1. Replacing distractions with challenging and interesting goals has worked best for me. Even if the goals are arbitrary and the challenges unnecessary. It works best if you get some sort of high associated with the journey.
For me, when I was younger, I was very competitive with others and derived enjoyment primarily from out-achieving other people. I eventually burned out and was injured, became less competitive, and eventually depressed.
Recently, I discovered climbing and mountaineering, which offers object oriented goal setting, with an infinite variation and degree of mental/physical challenge. The exertion itself is a great source of endorphins for producing a natural high. Taking on more risk/exposure also produces it's own natural high, which makes me appreciate mundane/boring activities that I used to take for granted.
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I like to wallow in my melancholy every once in awhile myself. Everyone does. I think it's good for us. But after wallowing for awhile, it's time to get back to enjoying life's offerings.
Rebel Spy: "As an aside, it is one of three books I think everyone ought to read, it can be life changing". What are the 2 others? (I liked the premise of the first book BTW).
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In no particular order:
How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne
Mindset by Carol Dweck
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
(A note on the last one, because I think everyone's heard of it at least: I only read it about six months ago, and it was amazing. I always assumed it was this shady "trick people into liking you" type thing, but really the book should just be called "How to be a nice person." Everyone should absolutely read it, despite the impression you may have from the title.)
There are lots of other good books out there. But if I could only pick three books I'd want my kid to read, those would be it.
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Thanks so much! I have added all 3 to my list, and found that two are available in my library and have requested them. Unfortunately it appears that 'How i found freeom in an unfree world," is out of print and my library doesn't have it, might have to buy its ebook.
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This is a great thread, but another thing to think about is how much time you spend in front of a screen. Sure, people can give you all sorts of high-mind suggestions on how to move up a level on Pavlov's Triangle... but what I have experienced is that it really is hard to feel sorry for yourself when you are hiking or exploring. You are rewarded with exhaustion and nature. And if your hiking is lame and boring, then get out on a 'real hike', try something outside your comfort zone. Subject yourself to nature and the fact that it can kill you, and if you push yourself anywhere close to your limit, I dare you to tell me it was not rewarding. I will personally take you under my wing :)
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Following this thread.
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Athiest as well. It bothers me that the trick is not to find actual meaning or purpose, but to distract yourself from the reality that there is none =/
Interesting take. What I mean is, no one else, no structure, no system created by others gives my life meaning. What I do every day with my life, does. I grew up with so much 'spirituality' that even Buddhism, which appeals to many ex-Christians, has no interest for me. And in a way, I feel this question is something very private and specific to one's personal history and certainly not something I'd go on about too much on an internet board, even if I did think there was a meaning to 'it all'.
But that's what you get from the daughter of an ex-nun and -seminarian, and a family of theologians ;)
Edited to add a take on this, from a previous poster:
" I now draw a distinction between passions / hobbies and distractions. Games, TV shows, drinking, etc. are, in my experience, more distractions than they are hobbies."
+1
Consuming vs. creating. Passive vs. active.
Re. the OP's original post - gaming and large amounts of screen time can lead to physical and therefore emotional (or existential) lethargy. Good advice above to get more active and enjoy the world around you in four dimensions instead of two. Challenge yourself and get out of your comfort zone physically by hiking, and emotionally by meeting new people in a different context than you have been.
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Fascinating thread.
Just a few things that I haven't really seen mentioned yet:
- If you're drinking every single day, you might want to take a time-out for, say, a month, and see if you feel any better. Some people perk up. You'll be forced to find something else to do with your time, too. Drinking kind of disables your body and mind.
- I think of 'distractions' as 'consuming.' You're consuming media of some sort (TV, music, internet junk.) After a while, people need to 'create' instead of consume. Creating can be defined as affecting any change in yourself or the world, including volunteering or shoveling your neighbor's sidewalk (you've just created a happy neighbor and built or reinforced a relationship) or even exercise (you've just created a healthier body for yourself.) Humans like to make things happen -- this is how most of us derive real satisfaction. I believe this is the underlying reason why most of us have hobbies (gardening, songwriting, cooking, etc).
- And to make your creative activities worthwhile, it's important -- at least for most people -- to tie them into social goals. Example: Writing a heartfelt song for yourself in a vacuum is kind of meaningless; writing a similar song for your wife for an anniversary present is challenging and will probably make her happy -- even if the song totally sucks. (Maybe especially if it sucks, depending on her sense of humor.) Being in a band might be even better, even if you never play for an audience. Running every day alone is a grind, but gearing up for a big timed race pushes most people to work harder and feel more 'into' it. Many people simply take on the hobbies of people they know and like as an excuse to spend more time with them. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes genuine interest follows.
You get the point. Consuming too much media -- even the awesomeness of this MMM board -- can potentially make you feel kind of blah about everything and it just kind of creeps up on you until you're bloated by the weight of too much stimulus and all sorts of random illogical negative thoughts (Example: wow, so many talented people in the world doing all of this cool shit and I'm not one of them, never can be, never will be, might as well watch another crappy 5 minute youtube video). It's not all that different from overeating or anything else. If you're overeating, the solution is to burn calories, or stop overeating. If you're sucking down too much media or other "distractions", my suggestion is to reverse the process and blow some of it out. Being a sucka consumer isn't limited to buying shit - it also applies directly to how you are spending your time.
I agree that life seems meaningless sometimes -- particularly when you sit back and contemplate larger and larger timelines. Does anyone remember anyone or anything about Father Rale's War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Rale%27s_War)? Of course not, unless you're a New England historian. But it sure seemed important to people at the time -- lots of folks devoted themselves to the cause and lost their lives. On an infinite timeline, we are all dead. What did their lives mean? Does anyone care? Not really.
The challenge is therefore to construct a meaningful, conscious, and interesting life while you're on planet earth.
Edit: Damn, just saw @expatartist's response, which is awfully similar. Oh well - repetition never hurt, right?
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There is no "point". The universe just is what it is, and you're part just a part of it. But that's not a bad thing, because the universe (including you) is awesome. Spend your life examaning it for fun.
And once you get your head wrapped around that, you will truly be self-actualized.
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Sounds like you may have just fallen into a bit of a rut there. Have you looked at something like meetup.com to see if there are any local groups in your area that might spark some interest?
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Athiest as well. It bothers me that the trick is not to find actual meaning or purpose, but to distract yourself from the reality that there is none =/
...
I tend to see religion as intellectually lazy / philosophical suicide (Thanks Areb for the Camus reference, I'm going to read his stuff!), but I'm glad it works for some people.
For intellectually rigorous, recent works on god/God, I would recommend NT Wright and Alvin Plantinga if you're in a reading mood.
Also, for a general (and uproariously funny) look at the general post-modern unease with things, I recommend Lost in the Cosmos by Walker Percy. It's possibly the best book ever! Helped me see things much more clearly.
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What I have tried to do is to imagine myself at age 70 or 80, living the perfect retirement. And then tried to figure out how to get there.
I found that I didn't want fancy cruises or a massive house. I could see myself as a spry old lady, living in a small apartment, hanging out with friends, meditating, reading a lot of books and discussing them, going to yoga, walking around my very walkable city (not that I live in one, yet, but I'd like to), maybe sitting in coffee shops or going into interesting small businesses, maybe doing some gardening, maybe volunteering every now and then to help others. None of that is mind blowing at all, and perhaps is all a bit frivolous. But it incorporates a lot of the things that I realized I enjoy - walking, reading, yoga, talking. Apart from yoga and coffee shops, they are all very low cost activities, and even yoga can be lower cost if your local library has classes, and you figure out a home routine. So since doing this exercise, I try to incorporate more of those activities into my life now. I am not always successful, but even if it's walking 20 minutes through the city at lunch time to grab some food, and 20 minutes back again, or making myself go to the same weekly yoga class so that I can get to know people there a bit, it makes me feel connected a bit more to the community. I also joined a meetup group that's trying to make my current city more walkable and bike friendly.
I do find that as far as finding "the point" other than just enjoying the time we have here, that I find comfort in thinking that MY point in life is spiritual growth/becoming a better/nicer person, whatever that entails. I admit to being pretty new agey so I'm not into regular church type activities but I occasionally go to buddhist or new age talks or meditations to try to get new perspectives.
Oh, also, I want to say that I used to drink quite a lot, and also went through a shorter phase of smoking pot, to numb what was going on in my head. I wouldn't have admitted to doing it because of that, but a drink was always my default choice when I'd had a bad day. Since cutting back radically on the drinking and totally quitting smoking I haven't necessarily had it all easy. When you can't numb what comes up in your head, you have to face it, which isn't always pretty. But eventually it becomes easier and now I can turn to meditation or reflection on what my feelings really are or something like that to get through. And I definitely feel better because of it. It's a lot easier to think, too, and then your ability to think about what you really want gets easier.
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A few years ago I found myself in a similar state. In addition, my boyfriend of 7.5 years had just left me, I was a WoW addict, I had no more regular real life friends, I was overweight bordering on obese, I was no longer organized or on top of things, I was coasting through my career with as little effort as possible.
The boyfriend leaving was a blessing in disguise. A wake up call to snap me out of this 'life'. It didn't feel like a blessing at the time.
I'm naturally very goal driven, so what helped me find the motivation to seek purpose in life was to figure out what I wanted to change in my life, and set goals to get there. I spent 1.5 years being focused on fitness and lost 65 pounds. Then I spent 1.5 years focused on being social and stepping outside my comfort zone to build relationships, while maintaining the fitness, until I had developed a couple close groups of friends, and meaningful relationships. Currently I'm in the process of focusing on my career and finances. Changed jobs to do what I went to school for, working on a small business, and learning about investing and now FIRE.
Through the effort of working towards the goals I set, both small and large, it got me out of the house to discover many, many new things that I have passion for. And dozens of other lower priority things I'd like to try out when I have the time.
My suggestion to you is to make a goal. Something meaningful and challenging that you want to change about your life. In the process of making the effort to change you will find your passions.
I really enjoyed all the other suggestions in this thread too, but for me, at that time in my life, many of them would have felt empty without being combined with a goal. For example exercise was a GREAT idea for me when my ex left for multiple reasons, but if I hadn't developed a goal surrounding it, I would have gone to the gym for a month, then quit.
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Athiest as well. It bothers me that the trick is not to find actual meaning or purpose, but to distract yourself from the reality that there is none =/
I'd probably be considered an atheist as well (by most people's definitions of God, to explain a little but not totally sidetrack), but I don't think that means there is no meaning or purpose.
Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
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Athiest as well. It bothers me that the trick is not to find actual meaning or purpose, but to distract yourself from the reality that there is none =/
I'd probably be considered an atheist as well (by most people's definitions of God, to explain a little but not totally sidetrack), but I don't think that means there is no meaning or purpose.
Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
I don't suppose it does, though it seems that religious delusions tend to give one the distration that I was refering to. At the moment I certainly don't see a meaning or purpose. Doing the "envision your life at 70" exercise, I see myself as a bored old man. Happy with my wife and remaining friends, as long as I don't let my brain think too much.
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What stops your life from being that way now?
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What stops your life from being that way now?
Nothing. I'm a bored young man I guess. 100% happy when outside of work when I get to spend time with my wife or distract myself with Crossfit, gaming, friends, etc. Work is boring, I probably do about a half hour of work per day on average, but I have to be at my desk (very old-school, privately owned company). Too much time spent silently thinking is making me sad I think.
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Have you read "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi?
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Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
There is purpose on an individual level and purpose on the level of humanity as a whole.
Certainly any individual person can choose to have a purpose or set of purposes for their life. This in no way requires belief in a deity.
On a macro level, though, I think you have to make a choice on your worldview. Were we created by someone or something (God)? Or are we here by accident, luck, etc. If we are simply here by chance (i.e., not put here by God for a specific purpose -- whatever that may be), then there really is no purpose to our lives, beyond the perpetuation of our species.
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Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
There is purpose on an individual level and purpose on the level of humanity as a whole.
Certainly any individual person can choose to have a purpose or set of purposes for their life. This in no way requires belief in a deity.
On a macro level, though, I think you have to make a choice on your worldview. Were we created by someone or something (God)? Or are we here by accident, luck, etc. If we are simply here by chance (i.e., not put here by God for a specific purpose -- whatever that may be), then there really is no purpose to our lives, beyond the perpetuation of our species.
I disagree.
I don't think a God is necessary for things to exist, including purpose.
If your God gives you purpose, great. But to then claim that there can't be purpose without him is pretty arrogant, IMO.
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Purpose is simply "a reason for doing something" or "an intention or objective."
We can philosophically (or religiously) consider our "divine" or "innate" purpose, but we do not need that to decide upon a reason to do things, or to create for ourselves an objective in our lives.
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I always enjoyed the story of Tralfamadore in Sirens of Titan, how it came to be a planet of machines.
Vonnegut invented the fictional alien race of the Tralfamadorians who originated from the fictitious planet of Tralfamadore.
Here is a excerpt detailing their creation legend:
Once upon a time on Tralfamadore there were creatures who weren’t anything like machines. They weren’t dependable. They weren’t efficient. They weren’t predictable. They weren’t durable. And these poor creatures were obsessed by the idea that everything that existed had to have a purpose, and that some purposes were higher than others.
These creatures spent most of their time trying to find out what their purpose was. And every time they found out what seemed to be a purpose of themselves, the purpose seemed so low that the creatures were filled with disgust and shame.
And, rather than serve such a low purpose, the creatures would make a machine to serve it. This left the creatures free to serve higher purposes. But whenever they found a higher purpose, the purpose still wasn’t high enough.
So machines were made to serve higher purposes, too.
And the machines did everything so expertly that they were finally given the job of finding out what the highest purpose of the creatures could be.
The machines reported in all honesty that the creatures couldn’t really be said to have any purpose at all.
The creatures thereupon began slaying each other, because they hated purposeless things above all else.
And they discovered that they weren’t even very good at slaying. So they turned that job over to the machines, too. And the machines finished up the job in less time than it takes to say, “Tralfamadore.”
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Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
There is purpose on an individual level and purpose on the level of humanity as a whole.
Certainly any individual person can choose to have a purpose or set of purposes for their life. This in no way requires belief in a deity.
On a macro level, though, I think you have to make a choice on your worldview. Were we created by someone or something (God)? Or are we here by accident, luck, etc. If we are simply here by chance (i.e., not put here by God for a specific purpose -- whatever that may be), then there really is no purpose to our lives, beyond the perpetuation of our species.
I disagree.
I don't think a God is necessary for things to exist, including purpose.
If your God gives you purpose, great. But to then claim that there can't be purpose without him is pretty arrogant, IMO.
I never claimed that an individual couldn't have purpose without a god...I in fact believe the opposite. Individually we definitely can define our own purpose and reasons for our actions. The more difficult question to answer is on a macro level...if our species wasn't created by a god, then what could our purpose possibly be, aside from perpetuation of the species (and maybe that's more than enough purpose for all of us...I'm not making a value judgment).
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Right, you said that the first time.
But just as I don't see a God necessary for the universe to exist, I don't see a God necessary for purpose to exist, even on a macro level.
And if it can exist on a micro level, why cannot those working together have it exist on a larger and larger macro level?
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Why does meaning or purpose require a God?
There is purpose on an individual level and purpose on the level of humanity as a whole.
Certainly any individual person can choose to have a purpose or set of purposes for their life. This in no way requires belief in a deity.
On a macro level, though, I think you have to make a choice on your worldview. Were we created by someone or something (God)? Or are we here by accident, luck, etc. If we are simply here by chance (i.e., not put here by God for a specific purpose -- whatever that may be), then there really is no purpose to our lives, beyond the perpetuation of our species.
I disagree.
I don't think a God is necessary for things to exist, including purpose.
If your God gives you purpose, great. But to then claim that there can't be purpose without him is pretty arrogant, IMO.
I never claimed that an individual couldn't have purpose without a god...I in fact believe the opposite. Individually we definitely can define our own purpose and reasons for our actions. The more difficult question to answer is on a macro level...if our species wasn't created by a god, then what could our purpose possibly be, aside from perpetuation of the species (and maybe that's more than enough purpose for all of us...I'm not making a value judgment).
The singular, unifying goal of most living things is reproduction, that is true. I (and many others on this forum) am yet to hear compelling evidence for the existence of a god.
Scooping some foam off this thread: I think the problem here is my job. It offers no fulfillment and the prospect of 15 more years of this is making me depressed. This thread has bolstered my reading list quite a bit, as well as inspired me to look for a new job. Thanks y'all!
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I think the problem here is my job. It offers no fulfillment and the prospect of 15 more years of this is making me depressed. This thread has bolstered my reading list quite a bit, as well as inspired me to look for a new job. Thanks y'all!
I'm not sure I agree that the job is the problem.
(Though it might be a problem; Yes, if you aren't happy with it you should change jobs.)
But you mentioned earlier viewing yourself as a bored young man, and that later you'll be a bored old man.
That's not a problem with your job.
But it is something the reading might help with.
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And if it can exist on a micro level, why cannot those working together have it exist on a larger and larger macro level?
But it's not really a "macro" level if it doesn't encompass all of humanity (it's just a bigger and bigger micro level)....and I know you don't believe that all of humanity will ever work together towards a single purpose.
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And if it can exist on a micro level, why cannot those working together have it exist on a larger and larger macro level?
But it's not really a "macro" level if it doesn't encompass all of humanity (it's just a bigger and bigger micro level)....and I know you don't believe that all of humanity will ever work together towards a single purpose.
I think it's possible, once the various religions fizzle out and we unite to explore space.
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And if it can exist on a micro level, why cannot those working together have it exist on a larger and larger macro level?
But it's not really a "macro" level if it doesn't encompass all of humanity (it's just a bigger and bigger micro level)....and I know you don't believe that all of humanity will ever work together towards a single purpose.
Every macro level is just more and more micros.
What if the whole earth did? Then whole galaxy?
And even if they didn't, that doesn't mean there's no larger one to the whole universe itself.
I can see why someone who thinks a God is required for existence thinks a God is required for purpose.
What I am saying is that not everyone believes that.
Many think that God is required for ethics. I don't, and many other people don't either.
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And if it can exist on a micro level, why cannot those working together have it exist on a larger and larger macro level?
But it's not really a "macro" level if it doesn't encompass all of humanity (it's just a bigger and bigger micro level)....and I know you don't believe that all of humanity will ever work together towards a single purpose.
Every macro level is just more and more micros.
What if the whole earth did? Then whole galaxy?
And even if they didn't, that doesn't mean there's no larger one to the whole universe itself.
I can see why someone who thinks a God is required for existence thinks a God is required for purpose.
What I am saying is that not everyone believes that.
Many think that God is required for ethics. I don't, and many other people don't either.
I'm talking about humanity...so if the whole of humanity could agree on a purpose I would be convinced.
I'm also not talking about having a purpose for the things we do or lives we live or choices we make...I'm talking about whether or not there is a purpose for our existence in the first place. "why are we here?", not "what are we here to do?".
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No passion
No purpose
No meaning
Hmm, except for the references to Vonnegut most responses seem to suggest that there is something wrong with this state of affairs.
I don't think so because to me it indicates the lack of any philosophical confusion, and that is a good thing.
Of course, one can turn this into a perception of lacking something that others enjoy but that is simply turning towards feelings of loss and depression.
If the OP is lacking anything, it is delusions, and that is a good starting point.
But chose he must - either he stands firm or he goes through life chasing the various Holy Grails of neverending passion, purpose and ultimate meaning.
Standing firm of course entails some discomfort, but that is to be expected as no one likes disillusionment. On the other hand, once disillusioned, the pressure is off and things look much better than before.
I would also recommend Albert Camus to anyone who has come to this point; and, for the more spiritually inclined, meditation is also something to consider.
Just don't commit suicide before having explored this a bit.
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I'm talking about humanity...so if the whole of humanity could agree on a purpose I would be convinced.
I'm also not talking about having a purpose for the things we do or lives we live or choices we make...I'm talking about whether or not there is a purpose for our existence in the first place. "why are we here?", not "what are we here to do?".
Yes, we are talking about the same purpose.
If the latter purpose doesn't exist, I don't see why the former would.
Also, I don't think we have to agree on it for it to exist. The way things are is the way they are. A consensus doesn't change that.
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Also, I don't think we have to agree on it for it to exist. The way things are is the way they are. A consensus doesn't change that.
We agree that the purpose must be generated from somewhere though, right? It's either: (1) a purpose given by a creator, (2) a purpose inherent in our nature - namely, reproduce and sustain the species, or (3) a purpose determined by us individually.
If it's #3, then there has to be a consensus, otherwise it's just cobbling together a bunch of individual goals and actions. It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one. Without consensus (I'd argue, without unanimity), then it's your idea vs. mine vs. his vs. hers.
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It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one.
Take that, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad! Arrogance!
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We agree that the purpose must be generated from somewhere though, right? It's either: (1) a purpose given by a creator, (2) a purpose inherent in our nature - namely, reproduce and sustain the species, or (3) a purpose determined by us individually.
If it's #3, then there has to be a consensus, otherwise it's just cobbling together a bunch of individual goals and actions. It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one. Without consensus (I'd argue, without unanimity), then it's your idea vs. mine vs. his vs. hers.
I don't know that I'd use the word "generated" but semantics.
Yes, I think purpose is inherent in nature. No, I don't think reproduction is the only thing inherent in nature.
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It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one.
Take that, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad! Arrogance!
It's not arrogance if you're the creator. Moses and other prophets are just relaying the message.
If Jesus isn't God, then he was absolutely the most arrogant human being off all time.
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If Jesus isn't God, then he was absolutely the most arrogant human being off all time.
On this we sort-of agree. Delusional maybe, but he had a good message from what I can tell.
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If Jesus isn't God, then he was absolutely the most arrogant human being off all time.
Jesus was as much God as you or I, and he was the most humble human of all time.
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We agree that the purpose must be generated from somewhere though, right? It's either: (1) a purpose given by a creator, (2) a purpose inherent in our nature - namely, reproduce and sustain the species, or (3) a purpose determined by us individually.
If it's #3, then there has to be a consensus, otherwise it's just cobbling together a bunch of individual goals and actions. It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one. Without consensus (I'd argue, without unanimity), then it's your idea vs. mine vs. his vs. hers.
I don't know that I'd use the word "generated" but semantics.
Yes, I think purpose is inherent in nature. No, I don't think reproduction is the only thing inherent in nature.
It has to have an origin...I think that's more what I'm trying to say. It's innate, though...and it seems like we agree on that.
It's tough to parse all of the various things that go into "survival" of our species. It's clearly more than pure reproduction...and it changes over time and based on your environment.
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We agree that the purpose must be generated from somewhere though, right? It's either: (1) a purpose given by a creator, (2) a purpose inherent in our nature - namely, reproduce and sustain the species, or (3) a purpose determined by us individually.
If it's #3, then there has to be a consensus, otherwise it's just cobbling together a bunch of individual goals and actions. It would be beyond arrogant for any of us individually to claim they've found the purpose for everyone and that their idea is the right one. Without consensus (I'd argue, without unanimity), then it's your idea vs. mine vs. his vs. hers.
I don't know that I'd use the word "generated" but semantics.
Yes, I think purpose is inherent in nature. No, I don't think reproduction is the only thing inherent in nature.
It has to have an origin...I think that's more what I'm trying to say. It's innate, though...and it seems like we agree on that.
It's tough to parse all of the various things that go into "survival" of our species. It's clearly more than pure reproduction...and it changes over time and based on your environment.
Looking just at our species is a narrow way to approach it. Start big, then move small.
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If Jesus isn't God, then he was absolutely the most arrogant human being off all time.
On this we sort-of agree. Delusional maybe, but he had a good message from what I can tell.
Have you read or heard the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument for Jesus' deity?
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Have you read or heard the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument for Jesus' deity?
False choice (why only 3 choices?), Jesus as legend (made to be divine by bible authors), ambiguous statements in bible, Jesus is divine as all of us are divine, etc., take your pick, it doesn't hold water.
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Certainly purpose is inherent in nature, if you consider balancing the ecosystem a purpose.
example
Bees must pollinate plants to produce flowers, fruits, and vegetables.
Salmon must return to the river to breed and die to feed other insects and animals.
If this is the purpose that is inherent in nature than what is the human's role in it?
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When I read this thread, it seems that I have hung out with entirely different Islamic, Christian, and Jewish groups than a couple of posters have. Some of the ideas presented are absolutely foreign to my experience of these. They seem to assume non-thought, regurgitation, a party line, etc, which is not the case with those I hang out with.
There are many aspects, groups, and schools of thoughts under each massive religious umbrella. Let's not assume all aspects present a given belief, or paint all groups with the same brush. There are too many variables involved to be able to say, "This [broadstroke] religion is..." or, "Jesus thought..."
My favourite people to hang out with in any religion (or financial forum!) are those that are deeply thoughtful, while enjoying sharing in their words their own experiences, neither quickly accepting nor writing off any given first impression. There are lots of people in many religions like that.
No passion
No purpose
No meaning
Hmm, except for the references to Vonnegut most responses seem to suggest that there is something wrong with this state of affairs.
I don't see that. I, for one, and I tend to think several others, were responding to the OP's discomfort (not that there's anything wrong with discomfort, either) and his apparent desire to move to a place of decreased discomfort.
OP: It sounds like you've pinpointed what's getting in the way of you feeling joyful more hours of each week. That's awesome! Some jobs are indeed soul-sucking. On this forum, we often hear from people who are frustrated because their work requires that they "just sit there" all day. They acknowledge that if they were allowed to do other things -write their novel, research investing, become a yoyo master in time for their kid's birthday party- it would be at least tolerable. But the jobs that essentially require one to literally do nothing -no real work for most of the day, but no option to do anything else in those hours- just eat away at them. The other job-type that seems to do people in is that in which ethics are disregarded, and the workers are being asked to violate their own. Most of us can handle any job that engages our sense or mind while allowing us to honour our sense of ethics, but jobs that violate one or both are no-gos for a lot of us.