Author Topic: New EV purchase plan - UPDATED - escaped vehicle lease, bought used  (Read 1521 times)

red_pill

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So as per my previous posts I'm freeing myself from my albatross of a leased entry level luxury car. Like for real this time. Have the buy out of the lease arranged, the car listed, etc.  No more hemming and hawing.  It's going.

We want to go electric with the idea of using the electric car as much as possible but keeping our older SUV for longer trips or when two cars are needed.  The fuel saving should be around $200 a month or so. 

I looked and looked but couldn't find a used electric that worked for us. The pre 2018 Leaf has really bad crash rating which is a no-go for me.  Well, that's really the only electric that can be found right now. And even if I could find a used electfic, the price differential compared to anew one is very small because of the current $10,000 incentive where I live.

For example, the Ioniq is $30,000 after the incentive. And the used ones - if you can find them - are very nearly the same price.

The tesla is just too expensive. And the 200km range of the Ioniq is enough for probably 95% of our trips.  There is no PHEV that my wife is interested in.

These things aren't that expensive to buy, nearly zero maintenance, and a fraction of the cost to drive. 

Am I missing something?

UPDATED: Due to repeated facepunches, we had an epiphany on the issue.  I'll put the details below in a new post, but essentially we have set a maximum transaction cost for the disposal of the lease, and if we can't get under that we will just ride it out and enjoy the car for the time we have it.  If I can get the lease disposal under the number I want, then we will replace it.  Or will replace it when it's up.  The  replacement vehicle will be ideally a used electric or a used PHEV or a used hybrid, in that order of preference.  And will be paid for in cash.   But the new vehicle idea, and the thought to spend $30K to $40K on a car, is dead!

UPDATED AGAIN:  I did it!  I set my maximum transaction cost that I was willing to pay to get out of the lease, and came in $500 less than what I budgeted.  Then we bought a nice USED (gasoline) car that has 30% better fuel economy than the leased car did, costs me $300 less a year in insurance, and that we paid CASH for!  All in all, we spent $18K less than what I was originally planning if we had gone the new EV route, and improved our cashflow by about $700 a month.  And, we determined that my wife will, in fact, drive a Prius so our SUV is on the chopping block now so we can replace it for a used prius when we can find a good one.   Success!
« Last Edit: Today at 04:31:30 PM by red_pill »

gooki

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 02:09:01 AM »
Nope.

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 10:59:15 AM »
A fly-and-drive, or even finding a friend with a truck and trailer to help you haul a used one would save a ton of money.

The depreciation on the used EVs is crazy.

ketchup

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 11:01:59 AM »
$30k could also find you a 2013 Model S, just saying.

Brick

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 11:05:19 AM »
I guess my question is, why not buy a used hybrid instead?

If the initial cost is $30k vs $5k (the avg cost of a used 2nd gen prius where I live), you've got $25k left over. In the meantime you can earn at least 2% on that 25k in a savings account so that when the used car market is flooded with Bolts or the next big EV breakthrough comes around, you'll be ready to take advantage of some cheaper inventory!

At least that's my take on this situation. If electric cars truly are the future, then there's no rush to buy one at a premium since they're likely going to improve much more rapidly than current gasoline engines (which have reached the end of their improvement growth curve, it seems).


red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2019, 11:13:21 AM »
That is exactly my worry - depreciation.  Even for the ioniq the 2019 is nearing the end of its production cycle and the 2020 will have substantially more range and power. Would the current $10K incentive be eaten up by depreciation that is unavoidable when you are an early adopter?

As for the used PHEV, spouse wants full EV and does not like the Prius and I canít find anything else used.  Even then the used prices arenít as low here as what you cite. 

The other factor pushing me is that my lease is chewing through $500 a month just for the payment plus another $200 for gas.  With both vehicles my per month vehicle cost is around $1300 per month!  (Can we afford this - yup and not even blink but itís still too high).  So Iíd like to reduce it as quickly as possible. But will be losing money when I do it since I have negative equity in the lease.  Bah! I know, loss aversion and the loss was already incurred just not paid for. But still.

Brick

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2019, 11:23:14 AM »
I can certainly relate to not liking the prius. I hated them for a long time, then I bought one, and now I still hate it, but I also love it. It's very confusing.

Anyway, if you're hemorrhaging cash on the lease and can save money by switching to the Ioniq, then I say pull the trigger and get out of that mess. If you're more worried about depreciation than anything else, then perhaps skip the electricity all together and go for a plain old used gas or diesel car. You can still save money going that route, but if your spouse is against that course of action too, then you have no choice, right?

Lady SA

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2019, 11:50:53 AM »
Why does your spouse want full EV? Dh and I have the Ioniq hybrid model and LOVE IT. Seriously I freaking love that car. Depreciation doesn't matter to us since we are planning on driving it 'til it dies so re-selling isn't much of a consideration for us. The hybrid is cheaper I believe than the EV model. Just curious what is behind the requirement of getting a full EV car.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 11:53:44 AM by Lady SA »

Home Stretch

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2019, 11:57:41 AM »
Where did you read that pre-2018 Nissan LEAFs have "really bad" crash test ratings?

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2011

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2011/NISSAN/LEAF/5%252520HB/FWD

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/nissan/leaf/10939

What are you on about? Buy a LEAF already. You can get them easily for under $10k, which would be TWENTY THOUSAND dollars less than you're preparing to spend on an Ioniq.

teltic

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2019, 11:59:09 AM »
I've been crunching numbers on electric cars.  Buying new doesn't make sense.  Your Ioniq you want is brand new, so there aren't any 3-5 year old Ioniqs... But i can promise you they will be selling for $6-10k in 2022ish.  Look at leafs.

Brand new: $30k (most are around this mark, for lowest model)
I just watched a 2014 Nissan Leaf SV go for $6k (it was $2k below kbb value). 40k miles.


Cost savings with gas: average person drives 12k miles (you appear to double that?  wtf are you doing? ;)  )

I calculate in Utah the cost per mile for electric is $0.04.  Gas per gas ($3.10 / 30mpg) = $0.103.

Gas = $1240 (assuming 12k miles on 30mpg)
electric = $480.

Yes, there are free EV stations at places... Lets pretend you magically get 100% free electric.

Electric
2019: Buy $30k car
2024: Sell for $10k (I'm being generous) $0 in electricity

Gas
2019: Buy $10k car that gets 30 mpg
2024: Sell at $5k, but spend $1240 per year in gas, $6200

Electric cost of car = $20k
Gas car cost = $11.2k

If you swing good rebates and get a new car to $20k, it's break even at best.


If I was going to buy a EV car today, I'd buy a 2013 Tesla Model S ($25k).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:11:49 PM by teltic »

BicycleB

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2019, 12:35:32 PM »
I'm baffled by the idea that buying a new electric is as cheap as the alternatives.

Like other posters, I assume that depreciation on a new vehicle will be fairly steep.

I also don't understand why pure electric is that important compared to merely getting excellent mileage from a hybrid. Cost impact and environmental impact depend hugely on your driving patterns and the renewability of your electricity sources. How much do you and your spouse each drive per year? How many kilometers are stop-and-go city commuting, vs how many long distance kilometers at highway speeds? What % of your charging electricity is renewable, and how clean/dirty is the non-renewable portion (in carbon terms)? Are you primarily focused on saving money, or reducing carbon from your personal driving, or stimulating the EV market?

Depending on your answers in the paragraph above, a used Leaf or used PHEV Prius might be much better options than a new Ioniq, despite the purchase incentive. There are used Prius from I think 2012 on that work as plug ins... if your commute is less than 50 km or so, it might be about as low-carbon as the Ioniq, but should cost roughly $C 12k-15k instead of $30k. As @Synonyk notes, you could save even more with a trip to the big reservoir of used vehicles to the south. (Syonyk is expert with many electric-related issues, btw.)

Anyway, good work getting rid of the expensive lease, and good luck mediating between your wife and us thrift-head gearheads (so to speak).







red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2019, 03:09:49 PM »
Where did you read that pre-2018 Nissan LEAFs have "really bad" crash test ratings?

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2011

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2011/NISSAN/LEAF/5%252520HB/FWD

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/nissan/leaf/10939

What are you on about? Buy a LEAF already. You can get them easily for under $10k, which would be TWENTY THOUSAND dollars less than you're preparing to spend on an Ioniq.

I read that the 2016 Nissan Leaf has a "poor" rating in the small overlap front: driver side crash test. I gothat that from here:  https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2016

We actually went and sat in a Leaf last night. My spouse did not like how there was a bump under the front seats.  And I found that the back seat floor is very high, so it seemed like my knees were up high if that makes sense.  And I'm not a tall guy (5'9").   I wouldn't be opposed to it, but my wife didn't like it at all.   Still, I agree that the low cost of them is pretty tempting.

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2019, 03:10:25 PM »
A fly-and-drive, or even finding a friend with a truck and trailer to help you haul a used one would save a ton of money.

The depreciation on the used EVs is crazy.

@Syonyk I somehow did not even consider this.  Damn.  I'll have to look into this.  Thank you!

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2019, 03:15:35 PM »

I also don't understand why pure electric is that important compared to merely getting excellent mileage from a hybrid. Cost impact and environmental impact depend hugely on your driving patterns and the renewability of your electricity sources. How much do you and your spouse each drive per year? How many kilometers are stop-and-go city commuting, vs how many long distance kilometers at highway speeds? What % of your charging electricity is renewable, and how clean/dirty is the non-renewable portion (in carbon terms)? Are you primarily focused on saving money, or reducing carbon from your personal driving, or stimulating the EV market?

You're bang on with this.  My wife has the "I want an electric car" idea and I've been trying to identify what her exact objective is.  It seems to be all three points - saving money, reducing pollution, and helping to move our society along to the EV tipping point.  The problem is stimulating the EV market is contrary to saving money in some respects.   As for pollution, going with a PHEV or even just a more fuel efficient ICE would reduce it by about 50% which isn't nothing.  Oh, and where we live it's mostly hydro electric, so very clean energy.

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2019, 03:18:58 PM »
I also don't understand why pure electric is that important compared to merely getting excellent mileage from a hybrid.

In general, a pure electric will have lower maintenance requirements and more stable energy costs than anything burning a lot of gas.

Quote
(Syonyk is expert with many electric-related issues, btw.)

Eh.  I know my way around a Volt halfway well, I know my way around unmaintainable ebike systems, and otherwise the bulk of the internet considers me a kook because I care about stupid things like repairing vehicles instead of spending $50k or $100k on a shiny status symbol built by a company that can't tell the difference between a car and a cell phone, doesn't allow you to work on your own vehicle or even access diagnostics, and thinks "automotive grade" hardware is nothing but a scam.

I own a Volt, which is one of the more-disliked vehicles out there, for some reason, because we have no charging infrastructure to speak of out here and I didn't want to spend the coin on a 200 mile range BEV.

@Syonyk I somehow did not even consider this.  Damn.  I'll have to look into this.  Thank you!

Normally, for a newer vehicle, a fly-and-drive is the right option.  You do your research beforehand, ensure it's in good shape (possibly have them take it to a mechanic), budget for a return plane ticket if it's absolutely not as described, and fly out to pick it up and drive it back.  Sometimes it goes well, sometimes you get stuck with a dead 6.0L Powerstroke in Nebraska (the guy gambled on the high pressure oil system holding out another couple thousand miles, it decided it was done after about a thousand).

For an EV, that's harder - especially a short legged one like an older Leaf.  There, the correct option is either a tow dolly or a flatbed trailer and a pickup truck.  I'd happily help anyone out here in Idaho go pick up a Leaf from Seattle/Portland if they wanted, and we'd just tow it back instead of trying to hop over.

BicycleB

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2019, 03:27:24 PM »

I also don't understand why pure electric is that important compared to merely getting excellent mileage from a hybrid. Cost impact and environmental impact depend hugely on your driving patterns and the renewability of your electricity sources. How much do you and your spouse each drive per year? How many kilometers are stop-and-go city commuting, vs how many long distance kilometers at highway speeds? What % of your charging electricity is renewable, and how clean/dirty is the non-renewable portion (in carbon terms)? Are you primarily focused on saving money, or reducing carbon from your personal driving, or stimulating the EV market?

You're bang on with this.  My wife has the "I want an electric car" idea and I've been trying to identify what her exact objective is.  It seems to be all three points - saving money, reducing pollution, and helping to move our society along to the EV tipping point.  The problem is stimulating the EV market is contrary to saving money in some respects.   As for pollution, going with a PHEV or even just a more fuel efficient ICE would reduce it by about 50% which isn't nothing.  Oh, and where we live it's mostly hydro electric, so very clean energy.

Thanks, @redpill. Clean energy increase the carbon impact of an EV, of course, so that's good for the EV options...but pretty good for the PHEV Prius, too!

There was a spate of conversion kits a few years ago for converting hybrids to PHEVs, but I think that died down some because the PHEV Prius was so good. I could be wrong, that's just what I seemed to learn by Googling "PHEV conversion 2019." That's what shifted me toward the Prius suggestion. I had been thinking that a conversion would add a new electric vehicle for a cheaper price than new, with lower investment of precious construction energy and materials.

Curious what you end up doing. Keep posting.  :)

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2019, 03:58:02 PM »
Appreciate the replies greatly.   I think I found a new way to crunch the numbers that gets me away from the fear of "missing out" on the $10K incentive. And that is by comparing my current costs over the next two years compared to the projected EV costs over the next two years.

Current expenses:
Lease $490/month x 23 months = $11,250
Fuel for 32,000km @ 10L/100km  @ $1.40/L = $4,500
Total projected costs from now to end of lease = $15,750.00


EV potential expenses:
Electricity (estimate 18kwh/100km to account for heat, A/C, etc) x $0.13/kwh x 32,000km = $750
New winter tires (I have a set for the leased car, but won't fit what I'd be getting) = $500
Negative equity on leased vehicle = $8,500  (the dealership offered a pretty crappy trade in)
Total projected costs = $9,750 + EV vehicle depreciation.

So, that means that for the EV option to come out ahead, it would have to depreciate less than $6,000 over two years.  That seems highly unlikely. In the current lease vs. new EV equation, I would be better off keeping the existing lease and then buying used in 2 years.  Heck, in 2 years I could probably buy the same vehicle I'm looking at today but enjoy all the depreciation savings!


I see a few things I can do to try to address this:

1) get a better trade in at a different dealership to reduce that $8,500 negative equity
2) get someone to assume my lease (would still take a loss, but it would be less than $8,500)
3) buy the lease out and then sell privately (it is currently listed at a better price than what the dealership offered.  Again, still a loss but not as big.)
4) get rid of the lease by method 1, 2, or 3 above, and then buy a used car to reduce my exposure to depreciation.  Still, a 2018 used Ioniq hybrid with 15,000km is going for $25K, and a new 2019 Ioniq EV is only $29K (due to the incentives).  The hybrid represents a 40% fuel savings compared to the 80% savings offered by the EV, but with maintenance costs.  But maybe a hybrid would depreciate less.  (I know, a 2018 is hardly "used").
5) consider trading in our older SUV instead of the leased car.  I would still realize the gas savings, but the SUV is not depreciating anywhere close to the rate the new EV would.  It's a 2011 with 120,000 km on it.  But I don't want to sell it since it is depreciating so slowly now. 
6) Find some way to get down to a single vehicle.  Dare to dream...dare to dream.

Gah, too many variables!
 

Is my math right on this?



NorCal

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2019, 04:01:41 PM »
I don't care how you run the numbers, a $5,000 used car will be more economical than an expensive brand new EV.

Buy an EV if you've convinced yourself you need to do it to save the planet.  But don't pretend it's an economical choice.

I fully believe this math will change in my lifetime, but that isn't the math today.

A used hybrid can be a very economical choice.  But there are other small cars with good gas mileage.

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2019, 04:05:27 PM »
I don't care how you run the numbers, a $5,000 used car will be more economical than an expensive brand new EV.

Buy an EV if you've convinced yourself you need to do it to save the planet.  But don't pretend it's an economical choice.

I fully believe this math will change in my lifetime, but that isn't the math today.

A used hybrid can be a very economical choice.  But there are other small cars with good gas mileage.

I hear ya, but we just aren't $5,000 vehicle kind of people.  I think I'd have a hard time spending less than $20K or $25K - I would feel like I wouldn't be getting something of quality, I would have reliability concerns, and to be honest there is a bit of social status as well.  Plus I am willing to pay a bit more for the EV to contribute to their increasing acceptance as well as my own reduced environmental footprint.  So my goals aren't completely to optimize our financial situation.  I do want to reduce, but not necessarily minimize, our vehicles expenses.   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:10:25 PM by red_pill »

solon

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2019, 04:14:19 PM »
I don't care how you run the numbers, a $5,000 used car will be more economical than an expensive brand new EV.

Buy an EV if you've convinced yourself you need to do it to save the planet.  But don't pretend it's an economical choice.

I fully believe this math will change in my lifetime, but that isn't the math today.

A used hybrid can be a very economical choice.  But there are other small cars with good gas mileage.

I hear ya, but we just aren't $5,000 vehicle kind of people.  I think I'd have a hard time spending less than $20K or $25K - I would feel like I wouldn't be getting something of quality, I would have reliability concerns, and to be honest there is a bit of social status as well.  Plus I am willing to pay a bit more for the EV to contribute to their increasing acceptance as well as my own reduced environmental footprint.  So my goals aren't completely to optimize our financial situation.  I do want to reduce, but not necessarily minimize, our vehicles expenses.

I spent $20,500 on my last three cars combined. All three are excellent quality. All three have drastically less impact on the environment than a new EV.

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2019, 04:22:31 PM »
I hear ya, but we just aren't $5,000 vehicle kind of people.  I think I'd have a hard time spending less than $20K or $25K - I would feel like I wouldn't be getting something of quality, I would have reliability concerns, and to be honest there is a bit of social status as well.

Welp.  Then, buy whatever you want, for whatever makes you "feel like" you're getting some level of quality, and so you wouldn't be seen in a cheap car.  You've left the arena of operational costs and purchase cost optimization at that point.

I've spent most of my life considering a $5k car to be unreasonably fancy, so I'm probably not of too much help at this point.  I've taken $100-$300 cars on long road trips with no issues before... but I was the one doing maintenance on them.

I think our Volt (we got it for around $15k used, low mileage 2012) is rather excessively fancy, but it's the least expensive option to let us do most of our driving on electric while still not leaving my wife stranded in town on a longer day.

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2019, 04:37:06 PM »
Hmm, maybe you are right - perhaps I am chasing at best marginal gains that might not even be worth the trouble or off set the transactional costs of pursuing them.  Perhaps this is only worth doing if we really challenge our mentality.

It's funny because our older SUV is worth at most $9,000 and I love that damn thing.  I love how much value I've gotten out of it.  I keep it immactulatly clean but don't worry about dinged doors if it happens.  It has all of the options I want (which aren't many) and none that I feel are extraneous.  It's just a great vehicle.

So if I feel that way about my existing $9,000 car, why wouldn't I feel that way about a different $9,000 car?  Maybe it's just knowing the history.

But you're right - the real gains are by taking a more aggressive approach to turning down the dial on our lifestyle inflation. 

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2019, 05:01:12 PM »
I've got a friend that will basically never retire (who could be comfortably FI, at least, were he to tamp down his lifestyle).  He's got over $200k of luxury EVs in his driveway (in a $1+M house), having upgraded recently from a perfectly reasonable Outback and Leaf.  He's a case study in this: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

And he can justify them till the cows come home.  But he's literally spent more on his cars than I spent on my house...

Perhaps this is only worth doing if we really challenge our mentality.

Quite true.  If you're looking at spending a ton more money on a car to meet social expectations and for some handwave of "quality," you've basically lost the game already.  You can always convince yourself you need something "a little nicer."  And, before you know it, you're turning your nose up at a mere $70k entry level luxury car, because it doesn't have some vital feature that only the $100k cars have.  I mean, how can you even live without the air conditioned seats?  The horrors.

Quote
So if I feel that way about my existing $9,000 car, why wouldn't I feel that way about a different $9,000 car?  Maybe it's just knowing the history.

Or if you like it, why not get something cheaper for running around that keeps miles off the SUV?

I've got a rather nice truck I use as a truck.  I don't use it as a daily driver, and I generally try to keep the miles off, because it's a nice truck that does what I need, and should last most of the rest of my life with how few miles I put on.  Plus, the fuel burn is kind of obscene...

But, having the truck means I don't care that the Volt can't do certain things we do.  I probably can't take the Volt up the mountain to Silver City because the ground clearance is quite poor (you can get a lot of cars up there but the Volt ground clearance is a good bit less than most other cars).  So... we take the truck.  The Volt is optimized for my wife and kids running into town and back, for a range of local towns, and doing it cheaply.  Anything it can't do, the truck will do just fine.

So keep the SUV, get a $7k Leaf or so, use that for town stuff... I don't know your exact driving needs.

Also, you won't get a pre-2018 Leaf because it has a poor crash rating, but you drive an older $9k SUV?  What's the crash rating on that look like?

Quote
But you're right - the real gains are by taking a more aggressive approach to turning down the dial on our lifestyle inflation.

Yes.  You can always convince yourself that other people care more about your vehicles than other people actually do, and you can chase safety ratings, and driver assist features, and everything else under the sun until you've convinced yourself that anything less than a 6 figure luxury car is just unthinkable.  I know quite a few people who have done that, and it's pretty sad to watch if they go through a life change where they can't afford high end luxury cars anymore.

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2019, 05:48:45 PM »

Also, you won't get a pre-2018 Leaf because it has a poor crash rating, but you drive an older $9k SUV?  What's the crash rating on that look like?


It's got a great rating.  I would never buy a vehicle with a less than excellent crash rating.

FIREstache

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2019, 06:00:41 PM »

Buy a used car.  Save money.  You can always justify wasting more money on something you don't really need.

signed,
someone driving a 13 year old car

des999

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2019, 06:24:33 PM »


I spent $20,500 on my last three cars combined. All three are excellent quality. All three have drastically less impact on the environment than a new EV.
[/quote]

same

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2019, 08:29:32 PM »
Wife wonít budge. She wants full EV but no Leaf.  She really wants that $10K incentive.  The dealership has come down $2,000 which is good. So I would be improving my situation but at the end of the day Iím still going to be spending $42K on a brand new vehicle. Albeit one that will reduce my fuel bill by around $3,000 a year. Other option is to wait out the lease and then see whatís available in two years time.

Option A) spend $42K and a new EV now.
Option B) spend $15K over the next two years on the lease and then buy something..... if the New EV I would buy today is selling for less than $27K at that point and I bought it then, then I guess I win.   Hmm - what is anticipated depreciation on a new EV?

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2019, 08:33:12 PM »
Why does your spouse want full EV? Dh and I have the Ioniq hybrid model and LOVE IT. Seriously I freaking love that car. Depreciation doesn't matter to us since we are planning on driving it 'til it dies so re-selling isn't much of a consideration for us. The hybrid is cheaper I believe than the EV model. Just curious what is behind the requirement of getting a full EV car.

Sorry just saw this.  She wants full EV because itís the best for the environment, the longevity and lack of maintenance. And because it gets a $10K govt incentive right now. Whereas the hybrid does not.  The incentive brings the prices of the two to be very comparable.  Iím glad to see you like the car!  That makes me feel better!

teltic

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2019, 09:43:14 AM »
You sound locked in.  You're getting an Ioniq.  Give me a call in 5 years when you want to sell your Ioniq for $7-10k :)

Congrats on the car.

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2019, 09:58:19 AM »
It's got a great rating.  I would never buy a vehicle with a less than excellent crash rating.

I suppose my vehicle history would horrify you then.  I've driven some tin cans over the years, and my truck's crash performance is generally regarded as "quite poor."  It depends on what you hit, since 8k lbs (plus payload) helps a good bit, but if you hit something that doesn't move, well... don't do that.

You sound locked in.  You're getting an Ioniq.  Give me a call in 5 years when you want to sell your Ioniq for $7-10k :)

Congrats on the car.

Yup.  Thread seems to be over.

BicycleB

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2019, 10:10:09 AM »
Wife wonít budge. She wants full EV but no Leaf.  She really wants that $10K incentive.  The dealership has come down $2,000 which is good. So I would be improving my situation but at the end of the day Iím still going to be spending $42K on a brand new vehicle. Albeit one that will reduce my fuel bill by around $3,000 a year. Other option is to wait out the lease and then see whatís available in two years time.

Option A) spend $42K and a new EV now.
Option B) spend $15K over the next two years on the lease and then buy something..... if the New EV I would buy today is selling for less than $27K at that point and I bought it then, then I guess I win.   Hmm - what is anticipated depreciation on a new EV?

Option B might be better. Just use that time to build up Mustache skills, look for ways your new skills make your wife feel good, and gradually build momentum.

@lifejoy wrote a wonderful post on "How to Convert your SO to MMM in 50 Steps." As I understand it, the essence is to use small steps in which you do the work and she gradually receieves benefits. Along the way, you yourself naturally build your Mustache muscles. Tackle the car purchase later, after you have more momentum. Don't give up - you can do this!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/msg0/#new

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2019, 10:44:53 AM »
Thanks everyone,  much appreciated. 

I know it sounds like I'm locked in.... and I am, but against my will.  If it were up to me, and based on your advice,  I would get someone to assume the lease (cost to me: $3000) and then buy a used hybrid.

But it looks like we will trade in the lease (cost to me:$6000) and get this new EV.  Ugh.  Double the loss on the lease and then more depreciation loss.  But, at least it is the base model EV, so we are dialling back the luxury factor with fewer options.  That's good. And there will be fuel savings for sure.  The reduction of environmental impact is good too, as is the social factor for encouraging the EV revolution is positive.   Maybe my neighbors will be more willing to go electric when it's time to replace their vehicles.  So, overall I am improving my situation, just not to the maximal degree possible.  And I can afford it so it's not going to crush me by any means.  Still, there is no question I'm throwing good money after bad. 

I have learned that when car shopping with my wife I get to survive with only two of these three things fully intact:  sanity, marriage, or wallet. 

Appreciate the feedback, it helped clairify my thinking and see the gaps that I have been unable to address.  Let this be a warning to others not to lease a luxury car - it is a trap that is hard to escape. Especially when you walk right into another trap.

Ah well, maybe next time. 
 
 

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Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2019, 11:47:26 AM »
The reduction of environmental impact is good too, as is the social factor for encouraging the EV revolution is positive.   Maybe my neighbors will be more willing to go electric when it's time to replace their vehicles.  So, overall I am improving my situation, just not to the maximal degree possible.  And I can afford it so it's not going to crush me by any means.  Still, there is no question I'm throwing good money after bad.

Your post-hoc justification skills are excellent.  Don't ask hard questions about just how much energy is required to build a new long range EV, or where the materials come from.

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Let this be a warning to others not to lease a luxury car - it is a trap that is hard to escape. Especially when you walk right into another trap.

And you'll just keep walking into them.  Good luck.  Hedonic adaptation kills many people's finances, and you're well on track.  I mean, after a new EV, can you imagine what your neighbors would think if you had a used car???

Philociraptor

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2019, 01:30:20 PM »
@lifejoy wrote a wonderful post on "How to Convert your SO to MMM in 50 Steps." As I understand it, the essence is to use small steps in which you do the work and she gradually receieves benefits. Along the way, you yourself naturally build your Mustache muscles. Tackle the car purchase later, after you have more momentum. Don't give up - you can do this!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/msg0/#new

Just want to reiterate this post, as it sounds like neither you nor your wife have a good enough "why" for following MMM. This thread really reminds me of how I first sounded when I started my journal; I had a huge car payment on a new Mustang at the time. Definitely didn't want a $5k car either, especially after graduating with a BS in Mechanical Engineering from an Ivy+ school. A couple months of facepunches later I traded it in for an $8k Scion XD, and it's been steady MMM progress since then. We're non-mortgage debt free now, so we've loosened up a bit on entertainment and travel spending, but we do our best to keep the big two (home and transportation) to a minimum. Good luck on your journey!

red_pill

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2019, 01:41:45 PM »
Just crunched the numbers with my buddy.  It seems like if we are intent on replacing leased vehicle with the new electric Iím really just rearranging the same expense level and trying to justify it.  That is pointless.  If it were a good decision it wouldnít take a weeks worth of number crunching to decide it.    The incremental improvement isnít good enough....

Tough conversations to be had.

Le Poisson

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2019, 02:12:41 PM »
Red, I've read through much but not all of this thread, then skipped to your last post.

I see that some folks have suggested the "good used vehicle" route, which you feel isn't for you. As a lover of nice cars, I commiserate. As a Canadian who can't wait for great EV's to arrive, and wants to swap out cars, I am standing next to you in line (albeit at a smaller budget).

No one has suggested the utter shitbox route. If they have, I've missed it.

Could you handle a car so shitty its awesome? I don't mean halfway shitty either, I mean go all out and buy a car for its scrap price at teh wreckers, and drive it around in all of it's shitty glory for about 2 years before selling for what you bought it for.

Case in point... When I first knelt at the altar of mustache and swore to be ever faithful to the ways of the stache, my fancy-ass Volvo C-70 convertible decked out with many an option was hard to part with. It had replaced a previous "sensible" family convertible which had also been decked out with many an option. But realizing that I was bleeding money and suffering a slow death to a thousand machete cuts, I got rid of that mofo and replaced it with a $7,000 boring Buick which performed so boringly flawlessly, I had no reason to complain. But it was a car that bored the bore out of boring. I needed something fun. I needed something with panache. I wanted a car that provided the same feelings of fun that the volvo had. So I bought a 30 year old Mercedes Diesel.

Now a $1500 car that had 60 hp when it came off the assembly line,  had over a foot of suspension travel (tested), could corner like a mofo, and carry more people and sheet goods in its trunk than a mafia hitman would admit to was a damn fun car to drive. I mean, I spewed clouds of diesel exhaust that coal-rollin' rednecks could only dream of when ever I put the 4-speed, tractor inspired shifter into gear and let out the clutch, and the three different colours on the body panels were unique for sure, but that car not only paid for itself in a month of pizza deliveries (the pizza shop loved to brag that their Mercedes would be right over) it is also the only car I've ever had that attracted so much attention on the road. I was invited to car shows and cruise nights. I had people walk up with offers to buy it for thousands more than I had, it could be repaired with a piece of bent coathanger and tab from a coke on the side of the road (note - keep an eye on old throttle linkages).

I kept the car for a couple years - just long enough to pay off debt with pizza deliveries and save up enough cash for a real car - sold it for what I'd paid for it, and then buy a dependable car. Right now I'm considering doing that whoe routine over again. Here's why.

I think that people buying dino cars right now are dumb. Given that VW is going to production with full EV by 2021, being that Kia has already crossed the divide, being that Europe is demanding zero emissions in a very short horizon, our gas powered vehicles will be worth less than grampa's rusty nuts in a very short horizon. And since we are looking at the cutting edge of EVs and the bleeding edge of CAVs, I think this is a dumb time to buy an EV too. My bet, which is mine alone, is that this is the very best time to dump cars if you want to get value out of them, but its an awful time to buy cars of any kind... unless you are prepared to have you car reduced to zero resale value in about three years.

So the only plan that makes sense to me is that if your car is holding any value above, say, $10K, sell it now and invest the money. Buy a beatup old shitbox - preferably one with panache (I have my eye on a certain Wagon with bad paint and one seat in red velour while the rest is black leather) - and drive it around for the next 5 years or so. Once the EV market has found its feet, and the tech has normalized somewhat, and we know whether the new ID Buzz is all that and a cheese doodle too, then drop cash on the EV of your dreams. But right now, meh. No. Not right now.

*Note that two months ago I was ready to buy a 328D Wagon, but being human and doing research, I changed my position, so all advice in this post is subject to change.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:18:20 PM by Le Poisson »

Syonyk

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2019, 02:24:10 PM »
If it were a good decision it wouldnít take a weeks worth of number crunching to decide it.

Or you simply decide you don't care, want a new car, and go for it, ignoring the finances.

When we traded our 2015 Mazda 3 over for a 2012 Volt, the math was pretty simple.  Insurance was a wash (within a couple dollars every 6 months), maintenance costs with the exception of large, unexpected repairs were lower, and the expected fuel savings were in the $600/yr range.  Even with the $2500 price delta between the two (including sales tax on the purchase for registration), it's about 4 years to payback on the fuel savings alone - or less, if fuel prices keep going up like they have been.  It's moved the car from the dominant consumer of fuel to being pretty far down the list - the truck uses a good bit more now, even though it's driven far less.

Plus, and of difficult-to-calculate-but-important-to-me value, it adds robustness to our fleet.  We can meet basic transportation needs without using gas if needed - but we're not dependent on the electrical grid either for transportation.  I can charge the car down at my office (purely off grid) if really needed, and when the home solar gets installed, we'll have significantly off grid capable transportation.

Of course, I also don't particularly care about all of the costs.  I'm putting $900 into a building in town to get charging infrastructure on it (a 50A/240V outlet out by the parking) simply because I want to encourage EVs among our church, but that's separate from the math on the car.  It doesn't save me any significant money, but there's no charging out here, so I'm doing my best to fix it.

Could you handle a car so shitty its awesome? I don't mean halfway shitty either, I mean go all out and buy a car for its scrap price at teh wreckers, and drive it around in all of it's shitty glory for about 2 years before selling for what you bought it for.

I've owned a few of those.  They're useful vehicles, but I'm not sure "I want (and can afford) a $40k EV" and "Well, it's $350 and a morning of work at the junkyard..." are terribly compatible.

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So I bought a 30 year old Mercedes Diesel.

Ok, LMAO.  I've... not "owned" one of those, in the sense of having the title in my name, but I was the caretaker of an 80s Mercedes diesel for a while, and that thing was hysterically fun!

Quote
it could be repaired with a piece of bent coathanger and tab from a coke on the side of the road (note - keep an eye on old throttle linkages).

I may have used a pop tab to bypass a blown fusible link in my alternator output wire for... um... TBH, I don't recall actually replacing it, now that I think about it.  Someone owed me a favor so replaced the alternator, but didn't bother disconnecting the battery first, and they popped the inline fuse in the charge cable.  It took a bit to really work out how to keep the wire tight around the pop tab, but it did work, and for all I know it's still working (though I assume that car has finally hit the junkyard - I saved it from the scrapper in 2008).

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...but its an awful time to buy cars of any kind... unless you are prepared to have you car reduced to zero resale value in about three years.

We have way more than 3 years of gas cars left... I see "an EV or two a week" out where I live, if I don't count ours.

Linea_Norway

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2019, 01:32:57 AM »
We currently have a Subaru Outback diesel, 2009 model. And a Suzuki Ignis, 2002 model. Where we live now, we need 4x4 cars, especially in winter. Our use of cars is typically either very local (daily skiing trips, shopping etc), or very long range (to the other side of the country).

When we FIRE next year, we want to go electric. We might replace the Suzuki with a second hand Nissan Leave (presuming my tall DH fits into it). It will not have a great range, but we will use it for all the short trips. Then we'll keep the Subaru as well for the long trips. Unfortunate to keep 2 cars, but we can't have a short range EV as our only car.

The other option is buying a Mercedes 4x4 EV (EQC) with longish range. It will be on the market in a few months and to keep that as our only car. As it is a brand new model, and we would have to buy it new. New cars as not a smart economic choice.

So we might end up doing the first option now (Leave + Subaru) and later, when the Subaru gets into bad shape, we might switch to buying a second hand Mercedes and use it as our only car.

In our country, EVs are also heavily subsidised right now and we don't know how long this will last... That would be an economic incentive for buying a new car soon. On the other hand, a brand new model might have all kinds of mistakes in it. Better not to be the earliest adapter.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 01:34:50 AM by Linea_Norway »

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2019, 07:58:07 AM »
I think it can be easier to gradually end up with a mustache mobile versus seeking one out.  As an example my car is 15 years old and was worth about $500 as a trade in at the dealer when we were considering upgrading (Prius with a dead traction battery and severe hail damage).  The car has a clean interior, everything works perfectly, a known history, and being in good shape mechanically, I couldn't justify sending it to the junkyard so I decided to just fix the battery.  I love having a car that I don't worry about dings and scratches on and has zero depreciation cost and very low operating costs.  As a result, I've actually become more attached to the car and hope to keep it for a while.  It's an become a point of pride as a sort of counter status symbol for me.   

Another big deterrent is that new cars where I live are very expensive to register.  The combination of sales tax and registration fees could easily exceed the price of a used mustache wagon.  So that's my suggestion, look for a 6-8 year old Prius or Volt and plan to keep it for a while, or go directly to an older well-maintained car with hail damage and save $$! 

Redstone5

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Re: New EV purchase - the exception to the rule of no new cars?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2019, 08:56:48 AM »
Where did you read that pre-2018 Nissan LEAFs have "really bad" crash test ratings?

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2011

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2011/NISSAN/LEAF/5%252520HB/FWD

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/nissan/leaf/10939

What are you on about? Buy a LEAF already. You can get them easily for under $10k, which would be TWENTY THOUSAND dollars less than you're preparing to spend on an Ioniq.

I read that the 2016 Nissan Leaf has a "poor" rating in the small overlap front: driver side crash test. I gothat that from here:  https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2016

We actually went and sat in a Leaf last night. My spouse did not like how there was a bump under the front seats.  And I found that the back seat floor is very high, so it seemed like my knees were up high if that makes sense.  And I'm not a tall guy (5'9").   I wouldn't be opposed to it, but my wife didn't like it at all.   Still, I agree that the low cost of them is pretty tempting.

My son is 6'4'' and hasn't had any trouble driving in the front seat of my 2015 Leaf. Tons of head room, he does put the seat back more for his long legs, but it still leaves lots of room for the passenger in the back seat.

red_pill

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So the original plan was to let our leased car go despite a $6K negative equity position, and then buy a brand new EV to take advantage of the current gov't incentives.  All in, the cost would have been $43K, which I did not have saved up.     

But I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on it.  The cost was just too high - this was the same trap I fell into before.  And I was worried that the new EV would depreciate quickly.  Wife was frustrated - she thought the $10K incentive offset the loss on the lease and the potential depreciation for the EV, and the fuel savings and convenience of not having to get gas would be valuable.  And we both like the idea of electric.  Stalemate. 

But we had a breakthrough this morning.  I have the leased car listed online for someone to assume the lease.  Some dude low balled me and said if I threw in $3500 cash he would assume it.  Combined with the $1500 transfer costs, that would mean getting rid of the lease would cost us $5000.  I asked the wife about it.  She was shocked and did not want to PAY someone $5K to take our car.  She literally recoiled at the thought.  But just a few days ago she was perfectly happy to spend $6K to get rid of it!  It's funny how different it is paying cash money compared to when something is rolled up into a financing package.  She immediately saw the disconnect and agreed to reevalute our plans.

We also came to an agreement that we would not buy a new vehicle out of a matter of principle.  We have done it before and swore never to do it again.  Also, we will pay cash.  I am certain that paying cash will, on its own, dramatically reduce the amount of money we would spend on a car.

I also challenged myself to look at cars that were cheaper than what I would normally consider.  I started looking at used cars and realized that there were plenty of used vehicles that had top safety pick ratings and good fuel economy in a price range that frankly surprised me.  Not $5K...but way cheaper than I was originally considering as my baseline. 

So, instead of asking ourselves "what car do we want?"  we will ask ourselves "how much is our budget" and only when we have a firm answer on that, will we start looking.  It's funny, when I asked the wife "how much is our budget", her answer was "well, it depends on what kind of car we want."   Problem identified - and budget is now established.

I suspect I'll be stuck with the lease for the rest of the term.  So be it.  Mistakes were made, and the cost of unmaking them just don't make sense.  We have a 50% savings rate and the car is fun as hell to drive, so it's not as if we have our hair on fire.  I'll survive it and focus on other things for now if I can't get rid of it for a decent price.

But when that lease is over.... cash purchase of a used vehicle will be the order of the day.   Actually, the goal is going to be to go down to one vehicle, and I'm confident I can do it.  the wife isn't so sure, but we'll see.

Appreciate all the feedback on this one! Now if you'll excuse me I have to go put a frozen steak on my blackeyes.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 02:40:43 PM by red_pill »

Syonyk

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Excellent!

It's funny how different it is paying cash money compared to when something is rolled up into a financing package.  She immediately saw the disconnect and agreed to reevalute our plans.

And this is exactly why dealerships do it.  Step one is to get someone to glaze and spit out a monthly payment they want ("up to..." for an extra $50 - no point in giving someone less than the maximum payment they're willing to take on), and then the dealership "makes it happen" - working all variety of "financing math" behind the scenes to bend you over to the maximum extent they think they can get away with.  As soon as you're working in the land of monthly payments, they have all the advantages, the buyer has none.

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Also, we will pay cash.  I am certain that paying cash will, on its own, dramatically reduce the amount of money we would spend on a car.

It will also drive you up the wall if you look at dealerships for used vehicles - not the best option always, but sometimes they'll have what you want.  Good luck getting a salesman to work in terms of absolute price.  It's funny how hard some of them refuse to do it.  I've walked out of dealerships still not knowing how much money they wanted for a car.

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I also challenged myself to look at cars that were cheaper than what I would normally consider.  I started looking at used cars and realized that there were plenty of used vehicles that had top safety pick ratings and good fuel economy in a price range that frankly surprised me.  Not $5K...but way cheaper than I was originally considering as my baseline.

Mmhmm.

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So, instead of asking ourselves "what car do we want?"  we will ask ourselves "how much is our budget" and only when we have a firm answer on that, will we start looking.  It's funny, when I asked the wife "how much is our budget", her answer was "well, it depends on what kind of car we want."   Problem identified - and budget is now established.

Rewinding a step further, the proper question to ask before "How much is our budget?" is "What do we need a car to do, what do we want a car to do, and what is silly?"

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/ being relevant here.

For us, when we were looking at replacing cars with an electric or semi-electric, reasoning was more or less this:

We wanted inexpensive-to-run transportation for my wife and two kids (and sometimes me, either with them or alone) that's significantly electric, and can handle the common case.  Insulating ourselves from the gas prices is a nice perk, as power is cheap out here - but I also wasn't willing to spend obscene amounts of money on a car.  Our car doesn't have to do everything - we have a "capable of just about everything we could ever want to do" truck that is part of the fleet, and that allows us to not worry about the week or so in the winter when we're under a lot of snow, or mountain roads, or various other things we do - the truck can cover it.  However, I also didn't want to have to take the truck on long trips.  Taking a 12mpg truck on a long highway trip instead of a 30-40mpg car chews up the savings in a big hurry (and let's not discuss what a set of truck tires runs).

Given the cost of long range BEVs, the option was either "Add a short range BEV to the existing fleet," or "Get a PHEV."  A Prius would have worked, but is (comparatively) a gas guzzler - lots of the trips are 20-30 mile round trips.

Fitting car seats wasn't optional.  I'd originally not considered the Gen 1 Volt because it's regarded as having a tiny back seat.  The Gen 2 fit the car seats fine, but after test fitting in a Gen1, I realized we could make one work - and the battery range being less than the Gen2 isn't a big deal.  We use the gas motor a tiny bit more often than a Gen2 would, but not enough to matter - and not enough to make up for the price difference between the two.

Based on all that, we started looking around for a Gen1 Volt, and traded the Mazda 3 in on it.  I paid a bit more for the transition than I was hoping to, but it was within the range of sane (about $2500 to switch over, including tax), and gives us cheap, somewhat resilient transportation that covers the common case very nicely.

I'm old enough now (late 30s) that I don't particularly care what I drive - as long as it does what I need a vehicle to do.  My "daily driver" (for the few times a week I'm into town solo) is a 2005 Ural - a Russian motorcycle with a sidecar.  It's hysterically fun, a total gutless wonder, and covers my desire for something unique.

Quote
But when that lease is over.... cash purchase of a used vehicle will be the order of the day.   Actually, the goal is going to be to go down to one vehicle, and I'm confident I can do it.  the wife isn't so sure, but we'll see.

Consider an electric bike as a second car.  They're massively capable.

teltic

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Congrats on the new thought process!   I thought we lost you there for a second ;)

Love the idea of pinning a budget, before looking around for a car.  You shouldn't have a budget fit the car you want... The exact opposite is what you want actually.

I bought a 2013 Hyundai Elantra in 2015 for $9300 at an auction.  Had a good dent and a big scratch on the windshield.. Perfect for me!  KBB value was ~$11-12k. My car is now worth $6k, so it hurts knowing I lost $3k in 4 years... Not 100% mustashian, but pretty damn close!.

Sounds like you'll be buying a 2019 Hyundai Ioniq for $6-$10k in 3-5 years ;)

The face punching you just received was out of love. Apply ice on it.  You're welcome. haha

BicycleB

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Good job, red_pill. Going through all this thought process and marital discussion is hard work.

You had us on the edge of our seats. Enjoy your steaks!  :)

red_pill

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Today was the day.

I had set my maximum transaction cost that I was willing to pay to get out of the lease, and advertised it for someone to assume the lease.  Got a reply pretty quickly but the initial offer was over my limit.  With some negotiating I was able to come in $500 less than what I budgeted.   So we pulled the trigger.

We found a nice USED (gasoline) car that has 30% better fuel economy than the leased car did, costs me $300 less a year in insurance, and that we paid CASH for!  Again, took a hard negotiation stance and got the car for what the blackbook trade in value was, so I should see very little depreciation in the next few years.   All in all, we spent $18K less than what I was originally planning if we had gone the new EV route, and improved our cashflow by about $700 a month. 

And, during our test driving, we determined that my wife will, in fact, drive a Prius.  She was so adamant against the idea, but tried one out and actually really liked it.  This is a major win.  Too bad we couldn't find one that met our criteria.  But, now that we know that, our SUV is on the chopping block (it's getting older anyway) so we can replace it for a used prius when we can find a good one.   So ultimately I will go from one luxury car and one SUV to a used midsize car and a hybrid.

For sure we came out of this better off than I thought we would.  Usually in buying a car with my wife I can retain either my money, my sanity, or our relationship.  But this time I think I got away with all three!  Score!

BicycleB

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So you got a gasoline car for 12k? What did you end up getting (year make model)?

What did you end up paying to get out of the lease?

Anyway, congrats on improved cash flow. This sounds like it has been an arduous process.