Need to make some major life decisions

[GhostDog]

Hello! I'd love to hear some advice on my particular situation.

My husband and I have $200K in student loans. Add to that $325K in house loans, and that's a lot of debt. Although we make good salaries, we work so much, and just feel drained. We aren't saving. We don't get to spend the time we want with our son, and my husband feels so overworked he isn't taking care of his health. I also feel that we do not live sustainably and we would not be prepared in any event where we need to be more self-sufficient.

I'm considering drastic changes. If we sold our house, we would potentially make about $200K. We have about $64K in retirement and about $25K in cash. I'm considering selling the house, moving out of state to a state with lesser cost of living, and buying a small home there (around $100K) outright. I'd like to take another $75k or so to pay down the student loans, and use the rest as an emergency fund. I'd want to live simply and sustainably. Ideally my husband would get a part-time job that covered all our expenses, and I would also get a part-time job to pay off the student loans. I'd like to start working on homesteading.

My husband thinks I'm acting crazy, as does my best friend. And it would be really hard to leave the state, as my family is here (though we'd still be able to drive home in a few hours). It would be hard to adjust to a smaller, less fancy house and lifestyle. But the way we're living just feels WRONG.

Any advice welcomed:)

[Saving in Austin]

I don't know what to tell you about the big financial moves you are discussing. But if you are working so hard and not saving then you probably have lost track of your expenses. I have attached an expense worksheet. You may find it useful. It adds up your expenses for you. Getting control of your spending is a good first step to fixing your financial life.

[diapasoun]

You may benefit from posting a full case study in the case study section for help on financial details (e.g. a strategy for debt paydown that's tailored to your situation).

You seem to have the appetite right now for big changes. I don't know how long you've been thinking about these, but it sounds a little like something has been pent up inside and is finally exploding out. Before you make any big decisions, I'd suggest doing the following:

1. Do what Saving in Austin said: Track your expenses, for at least a month, maybe longer. If you work a ton at good paying jobs but still feel completely out of control, there's a good chance that your spending is higher than you are comfortable with. Track your expenses (to the penny if you can!) just to get an idea of what you're actually doing. This is important, because it gives you actionable data and allows you to make a solid, informed set of choices.

2. Sit down with yourself. What does the idea of moving away from it all mean to you? Is it time for family? Relief from debt? Control over particular aspects of your life? Your husband's health? What?

3. After you sit down with yourself, sit down with your husband. You are a team. Tell him what your worries and dreams are; ask him what his are. It may take several sessions, but figure out what you both really want first.

4. Armed with knowledge about your spending and you and your husband's goals and desires, that's when you start to really contemplate big changes.

[GhostDog]

I do track expenses, but we have sort of lost our control over them. We did very well for awhile in the past, and paid off a lot of credit card debt. I'm trying to take control again now. I feel like a lot of what we spend is for convenience- getting take out, paying a housecleaner, etc., since we are just so busy all the time. So part of my desire is to step out of the rat race and have more time so we can manage those things on our own.

I'd honestly rather not move away. I have my friends and family here. I do have a sister where I'm considering moving, so that would help. But it would be tough. But where we live is quite high in cost of living, and I don't feel like we could really make a major change here. Everything diapasoun mentioned is in the mix- I want to enjoy life with my family, I want my husband healthy, and I want to feel more freedom than I do now. And I want to live more simply so that we don't continue to contribute to the climate crisis. I'd like a simpler life.

My husband really isn't on the same page, which is a whole separate topic, I guess. Although I certainly wouldn't say he's happy with his life, the idea of a simpler life really scares him. I have recently been gently bringing up the potential upsides, getting him used to the idea of some big changes.

[LifeHappens]

Do you have any experience with homesteading or even growing a large garden? It's easy to romanticize that lifestyle from a distance, but the reality is... mixed. I say this as a person who grew up on a small homestead and now happily lives in the suburbs. If you lack experience and are serious about exploring the possibility I strongly urge you to do lots of research, spend your vacations WOOFing or volunteering at your CSA and get a very clear idea of what the lifestyle would entail.

[The_Pretender]

Looking at your prior posts 2 years ago.  It appears you have made some strides but some gaps I am curious about.   

Initial goal was to establish a 4-6 month emergency fund.  Did you accomplish this? 
401K/Simple IRA:  53K -> 68K.   I thought your plan was to max out 25K/yr.  What happened to this plan?
student loans:  221K -> 200K. so you tackled the 4% loan?
Mortgage:  340 -> 325.  This appears you did not refinance to a 15 year nor made extra pmts this seems fine as your rate is 3.75%.

It seems like a couple years ago you had stress within your life personal/financial which allowed you to stumble across MMM.  I was in your shoes in 2013...  Stressed from personal/professional life and came across some of MMM blog posts.  Now I am not a poster-child of the MMM following.  We have had success and set-backs.  We could be much further along/closer to being FI but we really aren't due to us being human.  We seem to be like fad-dieters but financial.  We do great 2-3 months and then 2-3 bad months.  Each time we look back to see what worked and what may have caused us to de-rail.  We have evolved a lot and this is due to us looking back and reflecting together.

Have you taken time to reflect on the prior two years?  Did financial conversations come to a stop and the old habits (hard to break) came back?  Were you and your DH able to paint a future vision of what you would like to do? Establish Goals? 

One other thing, you mentioned your son has special needs in your early posts.  Moving to a LCOL area may not provide the quality of services you receive now or expect.  LCOL are exactly that... costs are low so funding to schools are low and special resources are limited.  not knowing much here, just wanted to bring this to your attention.

Grand plans like uprooting a family to a LOCL are either to dream with your partner or blind side them so they listen to you.  Sounds to me that this new thought of simpler life in LCOL on a homestead is you pleading w/ your DH to listen to you.  You want change, maybe not move away change, but change.

[mm1970]

Ah, a big change like that sounds so glorious.  I think about that a lot, but I would never do it, because I am too lazy for change!

I would recommend smaller, incremental changes where you are right now.  You say that you cannot make "big changes", but I bet you can, just slowly.  But always know that the "sell the house, bail, move somewhere cheaper" is ALWAYS going to be an option.  I remind myself of that constantly.  There are many places in the country where you can buy a house for $100k outright.  Always the nuclear option, so to speak.

I've been where you are (overwhelmed), still am in some ways.  But we've dialed in MUCH of our finances.  A case study might help, as others have mentioned.  But first, where is the money going?  Where is the time going?   I have found too much time spent doing things that do not enrich my life, in more ways than one.  I stopped watching TV, almost completely.  Instead, I exercise, read, spend time with my 2 kids, cook, meal plan, and attempt to get MUCH more sleep.  I feel you on the husband - mine is not exercising (hasn't in 2 years), is super stressed, but has started doing things for enjoyment on the weekends (house projects).

One of the things that I did, several years ago (when my younger son was around 2 or 3), is just say "eff it" at work.  Work is not worth long long hours for me.  I go to work.  I do my best to be efficient.  No company, no job has earned my 100% loyalty, more than 40 hours, "110%!"  Making the effort to have work be more reasonable, to not "take it home with me" literally and figuratively, has been helpful.

As far as simple living at home, small changes.  Meal plan, eat out less, keep the housecleaner, plan family time together (movie night, game night).  Go to the beach or the park, reconnect.  Sleep.  How old is your son?  Because if he's under 4, know that you are in the trenches and it DOES get better.

[Kris]

All I can say is, simplicity is so much less stressful...

I hope you and your husband can get on the same page. Is he anywhere near the point where he realizes/is saying out loud that something has to change?

[GhostDog]

Thanks for all the responses!

LifeHappens- I may have overstated my intentions. I do have a large garden now. But I don't think I'm going to be able to live off the land or anything. I'd like to expand the garden, have chickens, etc. Mostly as a supplement, not an entire lifestyle.

The_Pretender- thanks for reviewing that history. Basically, we completely fell off the wagon. The only think I set my mind to was paying down our highest interest rate student loan (and payed triple the required payment), so that's at zero as of a month or two ago. We experienced a decrease in income for a period of time, and oddly, with less money coming in, we got more lax with our spending. We stopped contributing to retirement and our EF didn't grow. One problem is that DH has never really been on board. As for my son, he's doing extremely well and doesn't require any specialized services. I didn't mention that we have actually started homeschooling him, which adds significantly to our overloaded schedules (we have flexible schedules so one of us homeschools during the day while getting work done early in the morning, late at night, etc.). Homeschooling has been an amazing option for us, but if we could work less, obviously that would enrich it. You are certainly right that I want change. We just feel stuck.

mm1970- It is overwhelming to think about making huge changes, especially when you can't totally envision what it would be like. My son is 9 so he's much easier than a real young kid. My time is spent almost exclusively at work, homeschooling, bringing my son to various activities, exercising, and reading. There definitely isn't much wasted time. I'd really like some time to just putter around!

Kris- sort of. He said today that these major changes sound to extreme right now, but that "at some point" he could "get behind that". When I asked him what that point was, he couldn't say. I'm not pushing it, but I am highlighting that we're not really living life the way we want to right now. I dont' want to be too afraid to make some hard choices that could make life better for all of us, even if it is a big adjustment.

[use2betrix]

How much do you make now? How much do you spend now?

Those are two basic things which can make the world of a difference in a good response..

If you’re currently making $200k and spending all of it, I see about zero chance of your getting down to say, $50k/yr spending without considerable amount of time and sacrifice you’d have to get very used to. Possible, but I’d get used to that lifestyle before leaving.

[life_travel]

Kris- sort of. He said today that these major changes sound to extreme right now, but that "at some point" he could "get behind that". When I asked him what that point was, he couldn't say.

I don't know your husband and hate to assume but quite often these words mean " I hope her crazy idea goes away over time, I just don't want an argument right now  ". I've been on both giving and receiving end with my DH , over life changes ( not just financial ) .

[chemistk]

I'll ignore the financial aspects of this, with the exception of a strong recommendation to post a current case study.

I don't think you've had enough time to dwell on whatever it is you need to change, only that you feel like you need to change. Feelings are great, they're what steer us toward what we want and away from what we don't want. Feelings are also really shitty at actually providing a course for sustainable change - given what you mention about your initial MMM discovery, I'd reckon that you have a good insight into this. You found MMM in a time of stress (huge feelings), started to make some changes, and then fell back into a comfortable routine. But the underlying causes never really were addressed and so you're back here.

That's okay - habits are insanely difficult to change. There's no judgement for failure to change in the past!

I think you've got a longer journey than you think, and it's going to have to come with a lot of discomfort, stress, frustration, and pain. Addressing the underlying reasons for why your lifestyle feels out of control is going to take time and a bit of soul-searching to even come up with a plan. And that plan will be very difficult to follow.

One of the most important things that needs to happen is that you and your husband really need to be on the same page. Not necessarily your page as detailed here, but instead united on whatever it is that you both really want. And to that end, there's not a single thing that you can do to make your husband align with you. You can't bludgeon him with your feelings and overwhelm him with facts. He has to first decide for himself that he wants to change. You can lead him to water but you can't make him drink.

If he can come to the same general conclusion as you, that something needs to shift in your lives, then it's time to work toward what that shift is. You can and should offer to do the heavy lifting when it comes to retrofitting your finances, but it has to align with whatever vision you both come up with and whatever vision he believes will lead to a more stress free life.

I think a good starting point is to outline your life. Calculate your monthly/yearly expenses. Tally up exactly where all of you, your husband's, and your kid's time goes. Record the number of miles you drive on a day, on a week. Write down all your savings, all your debts. Take a holistic look at your current situation, and look for pain points.

Then do nothing. Don't immediately come up with a plan. Don't fantasize about what you think your current end goal is. Just breathe and observe. Talk about it. After some time, you'll see what it is that you don't like and by process of elimination you can get a better idea about what you do like.

It's a long road, but important. Just remember that your end shouldn't be happiness, but a lasting sense of contentment about where you are.

[LifeHappens]

LifeHappens- I may have overstated my intentions. I do have a large garden now. But I don't think I'm going to be able to live off the land or anything. I'd like to expand the garden, have chickens, etc. Mostly as a supplement, not an entire lifestyle.

What you outline is very similar to what my parents did. They moved from a large city to a big plot of land. When I was young they had chickens and goats. Grew a large garden. Canned and preserved, etc. It's a lot harder than it looks from the outside. I could write pages, but instead I'll again urge you to do more research.

I totally, 100% understand the urge to just chuck it all and start again. It's why I look at #vanlife videos when I'm feeling stressed :) With two full time jobs AND homeschooling you're stretched about as thin as two people can get. A full case study and maybe even a time study are good places to start to gather data and look at how you can begin to make changes. Take a vacation day and a day off from homeschooling so you have plenty of time to sit down and think.

[Sibley]

I would caution you not to burn your current life to the ground to try to fix a problem. Because it won't.

I am positive you could find less expensive housing in your current, HCOL location. Smaller house, less property, the "bad" neighborhood that's actually just fine, just has people of color or immigrants living there. Condos, apartments. Renting vs owning.

You say you're homeschooling. Ok, that's great, but it's also work and time and effort. How can you reduce that? Or does it make more sense to put the kid back into school? I don't know, but when you're considering burning your current life down, that tells me that literally everything is fair game to reconsider.

How's your mental health? Both of you? Have you had physicals lately?

[Lady SA]

I would caution you not to burn your current life to the ground to try to fix a problem. Because it won't.

I am positive you could find less expensive housing in your current, HCOL location. Smaller house, less property, the "bad" neighborhood that's actually just fine, just has people of color or immigrants living there. Condos, apartments. Renting vs owning.

You say you're homeschooling. Ok, that's great, but it's also work and time and effort. How can you reduce that? Or does it make more sense to put the kid back into school? I don't know, but when you're considering burning your current life down, that tells me that literally everything is fair game to reconsider.

How's your mental health? Both of you? Have you had physicals lately?

Agreed. There's almost an air of desperation in your post with this idea of making this 180 degree lifestyle change without your husband fully on board. What I mean by that is, your life seems untenable, and it feels like you are throwing all your chips in on the most drastic and disruptive solution, despite your spouse's clear reluctance, as a last ditch hail mary attempt to alleviate your pain.

Have you actually examined and thought through all your options? There are a WIDE range of options between "stay on our current path in the city" and "move to a different state away from family and friends and partially homestead in a small house". It also feels like you and your husband are not on the same page at all and your imagination is running far ahead of what he would be willing to do, which is only setting yourself up for disappointment and resentment of him.

[mm1970]

almost exclusively at work, homeschooling, bringing my son to various activities, exercising, and reading

Well, those are the big 3, aren't they?

Work
Homeschooling
Taking your son to various activities

How much time do they take?
How can you reduce them?

Work: How many hours do you work?  How can you cut them?  Are there tasks at work that cause you strife that you can eliminate?  Can you work from home once a week?  Is cutting to 30 hours a week an option, or something you'd even like?

Homeschooling: Why?  Just why?  I am not anti-HS, but do you have a full time job?  Because HS is a full time job, and that's just crazy to think that you can do both: work and HS, and not go crazy.


Various activities:
I have a few friends who vent to me about being overwhelmed (a working single mom, a SAH mom to 3 kids).  And, I listen to the venting and occasionally offer gently phrased suggestions, if it sounds like they want it.  Often they don't.  Occasionally they do.

The SAHM recognizes that she has 3 kids and they are in 2-3 activities EACH, at a time.  She has two 6 yos and 9 yo in music.  Music lessons are great.  My kids start in the school in 4th grade.  Each kid plays 1-2 sports, though not necessarily at the same time.

When my older son was 10, we had one semester with music lessons, baseball, and his younger brother had once/week swimming lessons and once/week soccer and that was IT.  It's fucking ridiculous.  "Oh but my kids LOVE ALL THIS".  I'm not a chauffeur.  My kids can pick ONE THING (and right now, it's nothing. I'm fine with that.)

Other friend (single mom) recovering from surgery keeps "overdoing it" because it's her son's birthday, and she has to make a fancy cake, and cupcakes, and decorate the whole damn house, because IT'S HIS BIRTHDAY AND BIRTHDAYS ARE SUPER IMPORTANT.  And did I mention the upcoming weekend party with 20 kids?  JFC lady, you bring it on yourself.  Your kid will be FINE if you phone it in one year.  Honestly, WTAF?  A cake with family, a few gifts, and their favorite dinner is an AWESOME way to celebrate their birthday!

There are only so many hours in the day.  We all get the same number.  You've got too much going on.  Cut it out.  The nuclear option works, but often what works better is cutting out other stuff.  And get over the guilt that comes along with that.

[big_owl]

IDK, I read this post and see "we have so much debt....blah blah blah...we will work part time and homestead to solve it".  That doesn't really seem like a (good) plan to me.  I'd take the Dave Ramsey approach on this one and sell your house/buy a cheaper one or rent an apartment and attack your student loans until they are gone.  With $200k in student loans I assume you make good money and are in high paying professions.  I'd suck it up for a year or three and get rid of the loans, then revisit if you really want to homestead.  My bet is your dream of homesteading is really just a product of your perceived current lifestyle and that once the debt is gone and your shit is in order then you'd have a different outlook on things. 

[Mellow Mallow]

almost exclusively at work, homeschooling, bringing my son to various activities, exercising, and reading

Well, those are the big 3, aren't they?

Work
Homeschooling
Taking your son to various activities

How much time do they take?
How can you reduce them?

Work: How many hours do you work?  How can you cut them?  Are there tasks at work that cause you strife that you can eliminate?  Can you work from home once a week?  Is cutting to 30 hours a week an option, or something you'd even like?

Homeschooling: Why?  Just why?  I am not anti-HS, but do you have a full time job?  Because HS is a full time job, and that's just crazy to think that you can do both: work and HS, and not go crazy.


Various activities:
I have a few friends who vent to me about being overwhelmed (a working single mom, a SAH mom to 3 kids).  And, I listen to the venting and occasionally offer gently phrased suggestions, if it sounds like they want it.  Often they don't.  Occasionally they do.

The SAHM recognizes that she has 3 kids and they are in 2-3 activities EACH, at a time.  She has two 6 yos and 9 yo in music.  Music lessons are great.  My kids start in the school in 4th grade.  Each kid plays 1-2 sports, though not necessarily at the same time.

When my older son was 10, we had one semester with music lessons, baseball, and his younger brother had once/week swimming lessons and once/week soccer and that was IT.  It's fucking ridiculous.  "Oh but my kids LOVE ALL THIS".  I'm not a chauffeur.  My kids can pick ONE THING (and right now, it's nothing. I'm fine with that.)

Other friend (single mom) recovering from surgery keeps "overdoing it" because it's her son's birthday, and she has to make a fancy cake, and cupcakes, and decorate the whole damn house, because IT'S HIS BIRTHDAY AND BIRTHDAYS ARE SUPER IMPORTANT.  And did I mention the upcoming weekend party with 20 kids?  JFC lady, you bring it on yourself.  Your kid will be FINE if you phone it in one year.  Honestly, WTAF?  A cake with family, a few gifts, and their favorite dinner is an AWESOME way to celebrate their birthday!

There are only so many hours in the day.  We all get the same number.  You've got too much going on.  Cut it out.  The nuclear option works, but often what works better is cutting out other stuff.  And get over the guilt that comes along with that.

So true!

[Goldielocks]

Getting more simple with your life is a terrific idea.  You sound a bit overwhelmed, and if something doesn't change for you, you may become (situationally) depressed.

Why not seriously look at selling the house and moving into a (rented?) townhouse?  Or something where you can kill the time spent on house cleaning, home maintenance, yard care etc.... but something still close to work and family or things you enjoy?

Take the money and use it to fund future goals.   Think of this as "step one/ year one".  Once sold and moved, then you can reevaluate what your goals are.   I find my goals change as my kids grow and as I tackle big changes (like selling a home / downsizing) one at a time.

[KBCB]

For what its worth some people see the only option to make drastic change is to move and start over. This doesn't always have to be the case but it is appealing and forces the change up front. I agree with the other posters that you should look at your spending and see where you are at.

Sometimes people need a BIG change to kick start a new beginning. If you move, change jobs, or stay; you know you want a change so get motivated to do something while you have this motivation and ACT NOW!

Your are not crazy by the way! you see an issue and are trying to solve is as quickly as possible with some drastic measures. It makes you human!