Mustachian feminist theory

[TrulyStashin]

I am entirely the product of government handouts. I was raised by a military father (who was raised by a military father, whos parent's immigrated here when this country actually welcomed the tired/poor/broken hearted), had an entirely public education, and I now work for the government. There is no escaping the system, I get that.

Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts."  They worked in service to our country.  Perhaps even risked their lives.  Public school is not a "handout."  It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens.   You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING.  That's not a handout.  At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.

Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?"  It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have.  As it it all just magically happened.  Yes, you were born into opportunity.  But you capitalized on that opportunity.

Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own.  I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear.  And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken.   You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now. 

You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout."  If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point.  Then you'll feel less privileged.

FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7.  I minored in Women's Studies.  I was married for 16 years.  I've been divorced for 10.  I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice.  Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)

[snshijuptr]

@icky, you might want to check out Your Money or Your Life for more of the philosophy of FI. He actually includes in his opening examples a guy with a similar outlook as you, "having money and spending money is evil". One thing I would point out to you is the idea of "capital". You know about "Social Capital" (aka privilege) and MM talks a lot about "Financial Capital", but you have so much more capital. Specifically, think about your "Human Capital" (aka your Time) and how you are using that. MMM, and those of us pursuing FI, have decided to stop the Human Capital + Social Capital -> Financial Capital and instead let Financial Capital -> Financial Capital + Social Capital. This frees up our Human Capital to tackle things we really care about (for me it will be starting a school to increase the Mental Capital of students).

FWIW, there are socially concious mutual funds and independent investment vehicles out there (like peer-lending).

Also, #youneedfeminism because you have WAY too much guilt about your privilege. You seem to be COMPLETELY blind to the efforts you have put in to get where you are today. Our fore-mothers worked hard so you have the CHOICE of how to spend your time. Would you judge a feminist who CHOSE to get married and stay home with her kids? What about a feminist who worked hard to earn enough money to support her whole family and retired by 30 to stay home with her kids and husband?

[zataks]

Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts."  They worked in service to our country.  Perhaps even risked their lives.  Public school is not a "handout."  It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens.   You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING.  That's not a handout.  At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.

Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?"  It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have.  As it it all just magically happened.  Yes, you were born into opportunity.  But you capitalized on that opportunity.

Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own.  I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear.  And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken.   You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now. 

You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout."  If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point.  Then you'll feel less privileged.

FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7.  I minored in Women's Studies.  I was married for 16 years.  I've been divorced for 10.  I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice.  Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)

This is fantastic.  Makes me think about my future and all the hard work I've been putting in (and how I found out today, I don't get a weekend because I'm needed at work for 11 days straight) and how it is paying off because I'm reducing debt and increasing saving so I can make a good (better than mine has been and that of my forebears) life for my family.  And I hope my [future] children appreciate the privilege they will have rather than saying I was given handouts because I'm a government employee.

[Spartana]

I am entirely the product of government handouts. I was raised by a military father (who was raised by a military father, whos parent's immigrated here when this country actually welcomed the tired/poor/broken hearted), had an entirely public education, and I now work for the government. There is no escaping the system, I get that.

Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts."  They worked in service to our country.  Perhaps even risked their lives.  Public school is not a "handout."  It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens.   You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING.  That's not a handout.  At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.

Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?"  It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have.  As it it all just magically happened.  Yes, you were born into opportunity.  But you capitalized on that opportunity.

Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own.  I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear.  And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken.   You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now. 

You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout."  If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point.  Then you'll feel less privileged.

FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7.  I minored in Women's Studies.  I was married for 16 years.  I've been divorced for 10.  I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice.  Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)

I missed that comment from Icky the first time but totally agree with your comment Truly 'stachian.  Serving in the military or working a government job are not handouts! They are jobs were you earn your pay and, especially in the military, often go above and beyond the normal work load most private jobs require for much less pay. She should be proud of the accomplishments of her forebearers as well as herself rather then hold them in contempt.

[icky]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt." I don't at all, I love my family, they are aware of my love for them and I really do hold them and their work precious. People were telling me I needed to save so I don't rely on the government, when the fact of the matter is I've relied on the government to get me where I am today. The argument that I should save to guard against all the possibility of taking a government "hand-out" doesn't hold water for me and I won't be ashamed if god-forbid I ever had to accept SNAP for my hungry children or something.

And that still doesn't mean I or my family have somehow worked harder than the the billions of people on this planet. I've lucked out in the that their hard work and circumstances have somehow vaulted me into a truly remarkable class of people who can decide whether or not they will "choose" to work. (if we're all mustachians here, we're all of this class, as are many Americans.)

I've realized through this discussion that I don't like using words like "freedom" when it comes to discussing financial independence. It's a slap  in the face to those that suffer under true lack of agency. I am free. Financial independence is a goal that is simply completely out of reach for a majority of people, and an even greater majority or women, and I am not going to kid myself into thinking I "deserve" it just because I've cut back on the material goods everyone around me possess.

The idea that I should "give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point.  Then you'll feel less privileged" is ridiculous and a cop-out. It's the same as complainy-pants stuff, "Oh, I have a crappy family or a crappy marriage or a crappy job or I'm sick, or I overcame a crappy job or crappy marriage or disease so therefore I DESERVE [insert material goods or a large investments generating passive income]" What about all those people that overcame all those things WITHOUT any way to materially reward themselves or who simply cannot because they don't have access to the same resources, freedoms, and even rights as I do? There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

The mustachian way shows us that we have access to this vast amount of resources that are mostly being wasted and ignored by those around us. I can use this to my benefit by cutting my consumption and then stopping work early since an educated, childless, saver can get by very easily if they choose to live off American cultures excess. So at what point am I consuming/storing more than my fair share of the resources? Is it legitimate to say, well I might need them later so it's ok? How can I determine what I legitimately NEED and what is excess? Or should I tell myself the resources are infinite and everyone has equal access so therefore I have no responsibility to even make this distinction?

[former player]

Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.

If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy.  Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet. 

[icky]

Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.

If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy.  Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.

Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury, as is determining if I should try to become FI or not. More men than women, and especially white men, have had the opportunity to decide this throughout time, which is why I called them privileged. I don't already have 2.5 kids and a husband around determining it for me.

Thank you for the recommendation - I will check it out.

[totoro]

Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.

[icky]

Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.

Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?

[iris lily]

Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.

Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?

Many have said it here in one form or another: find your passion. Look deep within yourself for that which motivates you and makes your heart sing.

That is our life's work, and it is both the simplest thing conceptually and the most difficult thing to do in actuality.

[icky]

Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.

Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?

Many have said it here in one form or another: find your passion. Look deep within yourself for that which motivates you and makes your heart sing.

That is our life's work, and it is both the simplest thing conceptually and the most difficult thing to do in actuality.

Are there any passions that are purely self-indulgent? If everyone went around saying their life's work was to find their passion, what does that world look like? What parts of my feminist ideology are preventing me from finding my passion?

David Foster Wallace addresses this in "This is Water" speech - "But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.... The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.

That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing."

John Paul II says his ambition while being young was to be an actor, and he described himself as “completely absorbed by a passion for literature, especially dramatic literature, and for the theater." He could've followed  his "passion."

I can have passions but that still doesn't convince me I need financial independence to do so.

I thank everyone for their thoughts, but this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.

[arebelspy]

this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.

That's great! 

I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.

Enough is all you should want.  Be happy.

[icky]

this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.

That's great! 

I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.

Enough is all you should want.  Be happy.

Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!

[arebelspy]

Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!

Sounds like you have a good plan moving forward then: figuring out what to do with all your excess above and byond your "enough."

It's often a lifelong project.

Good luck.

[swallowtail]

Hey Icky!

There are so many great replies on this thread, that I don't think I have a ton to offer that hasn't already been said.  I felt and sometimes feel the same way that you do about the moral implications of retiring early based on investment earnings, but optimism, a reflection that the world is getting better in lots of ways (look at hunger rates over 20 years, awareness of women's rights, incredibly tech revolutions), and respect for the limitations of my circle of influence have left me at mostly at peace.  Functioning in a state of anxiety can really hinder performance and progress.  I encourage meditation if you can get 5 minutes away each day at a set time :) 

Your job also sounds incredibly cool - congrats on your accomplishments!  If you want to continue to represent professionally for other women, have you thought about mentoring or giving presentations to young women at local high schools or colleges?  I would have loved to been inspired by someone like you during formative and scary periods of life, when career planning was a distant priority compared to social survival.

FWIW - If you can get over your misgivings about the capitalist exploitation aspects, I think you should aggressively go for FI.  The earlier you start, the easier it is to achieve, and it is better to have the OPTION to do be FI, free and clear, when the time comes, as opposed to ending up in your mid thirties and realizing you have to work more than you want to.  Also, being FI early is an incredibly powerful example to women around you. (We own less than 1% of the world's property, and work 75% of the minimum wage jobs).

On top of setting an example and having personal flexibility - feminist and anti-poverty organizers need hands, hearts, and minds in vast numbers.  I plan to be FI ASAP so I can devote myself entirely to women and children escaping violent husband/fathers, survivors of sex trafficking, and advocating for reproductive rights.  Here is a conference I wish I could go to, if it weren't for work conflicts: http://www.traffickingconference.com/

There is so much work to do, so many people need a hand.  If there is going to be an economic revolution, that is way bigger than you and would change a lot more about your life than you could affect by any choices you make now. Get free and then get your feet solidly on the ground so you can get in the struggle.  I am so excited that there are people like you in the world!!

[Spartana]

this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.

That's great! 

I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.

Enough is all you should want.  Be happy.

Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!

Or if you do have a burning passion to work on the world's injustices just give up the job (and the security that comes with that or attaining FI and the security that comes with that) and follow your passion. There are many people who have done that - my own BIL gave up a lucrative career as a commercial pilot to work as a pilot for an African relief organization to ferry supplys,. medicines, food, aid workers, etc... to some of the most destitute war torn areas of Africa. He gets a small stipend to live on - in a pretty abject poverty way compared to First World Country standards. Thousands of people currently and through out history have done similar (google  Peace Pilgrim http://www.peacepilgrim.org/ as an example), thousands have joined the Peace Corps or Vista or other such places to address social injustice, poverty and the like. Nothing stopping you from doing the same. You don't HAVE to become FI. You don't HAVE to work a paying job. You CAN find a way to do more and get by in life. Or, as I and many other's here have pointed out, if you aren't comfortable living in poverty and /or being hands-on then work to as a vocal advocate for change. You can do that while working and living a First World lifestyle (especially a very modest lifestyle), save a bit towards FI if that's your goal - or if not and you'd rather give the bulk of your earnings away, plan to work until 65 or older. FIRE is one goal to achieve what you want in life, but it's only one and may not be for you. We here at this forum, and probably most people in the world, get that we have so much more then other's do in the world. We aren't worried that we'll be gang raped or butchered by roving bands of militants who burn our homes, kill our fathers and brothers and rape our mothers and sisters and sell us into slavery. We don't worry about enough food to eat or clean water to drink. We don't worry about dying from an infected paper cut or a common virus. We DO have it good - and most of us recognize that. So instead of complaining about the bad state of the world here, why not channel that energy and drive towards the ears of the people who can actually make change in the world. That's a good start.

ETA: Also look into changing careers to one that supports the things you care about even if it earns less money. There are lots and lots of advocacy groups out there that don't pay much but can make big changes in the world. If FI isn't you'll goal and you can be happy living a Spartan lifestyle then it really doesn't matter how much you earn - just "enough" to meet your basic needs. Many of us here have choosen career fields because they had more meaning to us in terms of doing good for others then money.

[Spartana]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

 

Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Army, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.

[sheepstache]

What parts of my feminist ideology are preventing me from finding my passion?

Probably the part where you insist on calling it feminism even though nobody else understands what the hell you're talking about.  You can have your personal ideology, in fact it's great to have, but don't give it a label that everyone else understands to mean something else.  I have a personal code of ethics, but I don't go around calling it communism or post-structuralism because communism and post-structuralism already have roughly agreed-upon definitions that the rest of the world understands.

David Foster Wallace addresses this in "This is Water" speech - "But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.... The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.

That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing."

If you're interested in further literature on it, have you read Jonathan Franzen's Freedom?  One of the themes seems to be the idea that personal freedom, which America worships, is not the be-all end-all of human progression or happiness.  Sometimes meaning involves commitments and commitments come with a diminishing of freedom.  Sometimes caring for a loved one means sacrificing an ideology or dream but is a better purpose than those abstract ideas which are touted so much in our culture.  (I think he actually got these ideas across pretty well in The Corrections but apparently he didn't think so, so this is the following novel where he beats the reader over the head with the ideas.)

From that quote it sounds like you're struggling with the idea a lot of young people struggle with which is the pull between the potential and the definite.  Financial independence is a specific number, not "some infinite thing."  Not hoarding infinite money.  On the other hand, if you keep working for money your whole life, what are you chasing after?

But as other people have mentioned, it sounds like you're dealing with some personal shit and dressing it up in an ideological discussion to make it seem more legitimate.  You don't have to do that.  Your personal concerns are quite legitimate on their own.  They'll eventually tie into your greater intellectual ideas about the world, but use those intellectual ideas as an excuse to talk about the personal and you give both short shrift.

Finally I leave you with a quote from Dr. House.
"J'ever notice, how all the self-sacrificing women in history, Joan of Arc, Mother Teresa [...] they all die alone? The men, on the other hand, get so much fuzz it's crazy."

[icky]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

 

Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.

Not everyone, even those in the military, agree with  you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-an-army-veteran-and-my-benefits-are-too-generous/2014/06/06/5e8db2ec-eb35-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html

[TrulyStashin]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

 

Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.

+1

I'd like to add that even if a soldier/ sailor/ airman/ marine never sees combat, they probably spend much of their waking lives TRAINING for combat and that alone can lead to death or chronic injuries.  Just ask my friend the Army paratrooper whose service resulted in ruined knees and chronic spinal problems.  Or the widow of the pilot who was killed on a training flight.   

There's also the repeated relocations and willingness to uproot and say goodbye to friends and family because the military said so.   Spending four years in Alaska in the early 1960's (as a friend's AF father did) could not have been either easy or fun.

I'm sure you love your family but you display a significant lack of awareness of who they are, as people, and what they've done with their lives.

Maybe your mom stayed home because, according to her conscience, that was her highest and best purpose on this earth.  Yet, you dismiss it with a wave of your hand.  Have you ever bothered to ask her about her life and then really LISTEN to her answer?  Maybe, just maybe, she had a similar existential crisis when she was your age and after contemplation and searching she realized that her family was her highest priority and so she acted accordingly. 

In your search for meaning, start with the people you love.  You can't go wrong there and you just might learn a thing or two from the Elders of your Tribe.

[jka468]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

[Spartana]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

 

Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.

Not everyone, even those in the military, agree with  you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-an-army-veteran-and-my-benefits-are-too-generous/2014/06/06/5e8db2ec-eb35-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html

I never said everyone agrees with me, I'm saying that as a Vet myself, as well as an advocate for Vets, most have gone above and beyond anything even remotely comparable in the civilian world in their 20 plus years of service to earn that pension. 

[Spartana]

I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)

 

Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.

+1

I'd like to add that even if a soldier/ sailor/ airman/ marine never sees combat, they probably spend much of their waking lives TRAINING for combat and that alone can lead to death or chronic injuries.  Just ask my friend the Army paratrooper whose service resulted in ruined knees and chronic spinal problems.  Or the widow of the pilot who was killed on a training flight.   

 

agreed. Many of us who've been in the service have been badly injured and suffered a permanent disability (including myself)  - not in combat, but in training or just doing the job. The constant moves (often every year), the constant deployments or patrols, the 16 plus hour work days 7 days a week in harsh and dangerous conditions, all take a tool on a person. Yes there are cushy jobs in the military, but it often takes years of drudgery and often sacrifice to get to that point.

[jka468]

Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.

If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy.  Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.

Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury, as is determining if I should try to become FI or not. More men than women, and especially white men, have had the opportunity to decide this throughout time, which is why I called them privileged. I don't already have 2.5 kids and a husband around determining it for me.

Thank you for the recommendation - I will check it out.

Also, more (many more in some instances) men than women have...

-Died in armed conflict throughout history
-Died due to workplace hazards
-Not passed on their genes to foster another generation
-Mental illnesses that receive little to no care
-Homelessness encroaching upon their circumstances
-Comitted suicide

You're a shill and you don't even realize it.

[TrulyStashin]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

[jka468]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.

And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.

[Louisville]

OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.

[icky]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.

And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.

Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?

[TrulyStashin]

Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.

If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy.  Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.

Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury . . .

No, it is not a luxury.   It is your birthright as an American.  The very essence of liberty means that we each get to decide the meaning of life, according to our own individual conscience.  It's what your father and grandfather served to protect. 

The fact that earlier generations of women (and today's less fortunate women) were denied their rights and liberty does not make it merely a luxury for you. 

Today is 9/11.  It's a great day to stand up and claim your RIGHT to be whomever you want to be.  Stop all this hand twisting -- all this narcissistic navel gazing --  and go build something important.

[jka468]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.

And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.

Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?

Your glib response won't work with me.

If you're asking if I am ashamed of innate differences in humans that push my IQ to the right side of the bell curve and allow me more chances at wealth than others, then NO, I am not ashamed; I know that life isn't fair. On the flip side, I will never dunk a basketball but I don't hold it against LeBron James that he can and that he makes millions of dollars for it.

OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.

I for one would hope for the latter, but like a true "staunch feminist", I would bet on the former.

[swallowtail]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.

And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.

Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?

The misogyny directed at Icky in this thread has been extreme.  I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.

Considering the incredibly high incidence of rape (1/4 women in a college setting), and that 100% of women endure sexual harassment and the threat of sexual violence (which results in emotional trauma and can run the risk of pregnancy, which is a life-threatening condition), while our right to bodily autonomy is curtailed by law, and simultaneously exploited by the "sexual entertainment" (paid rape) industry while we earn less and are discriminated against for our mere existence on a daily basis in tangibly offensive way, I would say women risk life and limb in some pretty unique ways compared to guys.  And I'm not going to open this thread anymore because if you think that feminism isn't necessary or women's oppression isn't real, or that a white male's struggles somehow render millennia of oppression of women irrelevant (while those same males have manifested and/or benefited from said oppression), there is nothing I can say on this thread that is going to convince you otherwise, when the world around you, and ample resources available to you have not opened your eyes.  I know the misogyny guns directed at her on this thread will be pointed at me, and I won't take the time to read or respond to it. 

[arebelspy]

OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.

I wouldn't say mentally ill, but definitely troubled.  I hope she finds what she's looking for.

[icky]

f all of this.

There's no such thing as a birthright as an American. There's only my birthrights as a human being and they should be equal among us all. I AM building something important and my life does have meaning and I am not mentally ill. Its astounding how many people are ready to tell I have none of those things based on some intentionally contentious postings on a personal finance forum!

I don't have a RIGHT to be whomever I want to be. I have a RESPONSIBILITY to be someone worth having on this planet! It's an attitude that I don't seem to see often and its deeply frustrating. And yes, white males seem to be the ones who go around talking about their rights and their earnings while belittling others as cat-ladys.

I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy. It's still not good enough and you're all copping out by saying its about "passion" and "freedom".

[jka468]

Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...

Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.

You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked.  But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism.  She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning.  Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out.  Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.

Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.

Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.

And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.

Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?

Considering the incredibly high incidence of rape (1/4 women in a college setting), and that 100% of women endure sexual harassment and the threat of sexual violence (which results in emotional trauma and can run the risk of pregnancy, which is a life-threatening condition), while our right to bodily autonomy is curtailed by law, and simultaneously exploited by the "sexual entertainment" (paid rape) industry while we earn less and are discriminated against for our mere existence on a daily basis in tangibly offensive way, I would say women risk life and limb in some pretty unique ways compared to guys.  And I'm not going to open this thread anymore because if you think that feminism isn't necessary or women's oppression isn't real, or that a white male's struggles somehow render millennia of oppression of women irrelevant (while those same males have manifested and/or benefited from said oppression), there is nothing I can say on this thread that is going to convince you otherwise, when the world around you, and ample resources available to you have not opened your eyes.

Also, the misogyny directed at Icky in this thread has been extreme.  I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.

This response is so stupid that you need to put the internet away for the day. If 1/4 of all women in college were raped, then let me ask you, WHY would parents send their children to these rape factories, *ahem* I mean these institutions of higher learning? Look up real statistics of rape from the FBI and get the truth; stop spreading false propaganda.

And LOL @ paid rape. Which is it, are women children or adults? If children then let's treat them like it and I can go along with your assertion, but if adults (which I believe) then they certainly have autonomy and a responsibility based on their own choices. A vast vast majority of porn and sexual trade workers go into the industry under their own volition. Stop with the victim mentality, it's sickening, and start treating women like adults.

MOD NOTE: We're done with this.  Cut it out.

[arebelspy]

I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy.

It can't.

That's why you haven't heard a good reason.  There isn't one. So stop trying to force money in your bank account as happiness.  It's not.

Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank.

As I posted earlier, read this thread about how Mustachianism is not about money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/can-mustachiansm-be-about-'not-money'/

[arebelspy]

MOD NOTE: The rape discussion and contentious "feminism" arguments need to stop.  Feel free to directly address OP's concerns, but do not attack OP or each other.  Thank you.

[icky]

I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy.

It can't.

That's why you haven't heard a good reason.  There isn't one. So stop trying to force money in your bank account as happiness.  It's not.

Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank.

As I posted earlier, read this thread about how Mustachianism is not about money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/can-mustachiansm-be-about-'not-money'/

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

[Sylly]

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

Depends on your goal, and that's what some earlier posts have alluded to.

It looks to you like MMM is about having money in the bank because to a lot of people here, the GOAL is retirement (early, for some), in the sense of no longer needing to work. For that specific goal, building capital so that one can live off its returns in their retirement days necessitates putting money in the bank.

So, to answer your question, go figure out what your goal is.

[ZiziPB]

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

Seriously??? Donate it to a cause you believe in.  Spend time volunteering and helping the ones that are less fortunate than you.  Set up a foundation to help the underprivileged. 

[arebelspy]

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

Find a cause you care about.

I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries.  I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.

The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.

But find out what is right for you. 

Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.

You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.

At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.

But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait.  Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.

[Louisville]

OP, I'm not suggesting that you may be ill/trolling because of the assertions you're making (although they seem bizarre to me). I'm suggesting it because people are time and again giving you perfectly reasonable answers to your questions, but then you keep finding a way ask the same question over and over. It's as if you are arguing for its own sake, rather than actually seeking input.

[icky]

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

Find a cause you care about.

I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries.  I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.

The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.

But find out what is right for you. 

Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.

You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.

At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.

But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait.  Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.

It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.

This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.

[icky]

OP, I'm not suggesting that you may be ill/trolling because of the assertions you're making (although they seem bizarre to me). I'm suggesting it because people are time and again giving you perfectly reasonable answers to your questions, but then you keep finding a way ask the same question over and over. It's as if you are arguing for its own sake, rather than actually seeking input.

People are insulting and/or challenging me, and I am responding. I said 8 posts ago I appreciated everyone's input, I would look into their reading recommendations, and that this thread has confirmed that I need to find more charitable causes I care about.

I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it. I already have a 100k of networth for Pete's Sake and I'm perfectly capable of working! "Mustachianism" only goes so far and neglects a lot.

[arebelspy]

It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.

This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person.

Feel free to think whatever you want.

MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.

I think probably 100% of us agree with that.

[arebelspy]

I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.

Then get off your computer and go find some meaning!  It clearly isn't here.

:)

[Sylly]

It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.

This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.

"Hello, Kettle. My name is Pot. My, aren't you black."

[icky]

I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.

Then get off your computer and go find some meaning!  It clearly isn't here.

:)

Touche! I'm out! Enjoy your money!

[johnhenry]

f all of this.

There's no such thing as a birthright as an American. There's only my birthrights as a human being and they should be equal among us all. I AM building something important and my life does have meaning and I am not mentally ill. Its astounding how many people are ready to tell I have none of those things based on some intentionally contentious postings on a personal finance forum!

I don't have a RIGHT to be whomever I want to be. I have a RESPONSIBILITY to be someone worth having on this planet! It's an attitude that I don't seem to see often and its deeply frustrating. And yes, white males seem to be the ones who go around talking about their rights and their earnings while belittling others as cat-ladys.

I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy. It's still not good enough and you're all copping out by saying its about "passion" and "freedom".

Despite my hunch that you may be trolling, I'll play along.  I share your sense of responsibility as a human as my highest priority in life.  It may strike a nerve, but I'll admit that I'm not proud to be an American.  I'm very LUCKY to be an American, or born into any first world country in this day and age.  That's not to say that I'm necessarily *ashamed* to be an American either.  It means that I recognize that it was something out of my control; how can I be proud of it?! 

I'm proud of the family I'm raising.  I'm proud of the way I treat other humans.  I'm proud that I've tried to leave the earth and humanity better off, although I can't be sure that I've succeeded.  And yes, I'm proud of the "wealth" that I've accumulated!  But that's because I recognize that "money" is a tax credit.  While I recognize that one's contribution to humanity is not measured solely on the wealth generated by one's labor, it is still some measure.  As Abraham Lincoln said, labor is prior to and superior to capital.  Because money is a tax credit, the more justly we can structure our tax system (really all laws), the more virtuous it would be for one to accumulate wealth by producing more than he consumed.  If we are all playing a game that is fair, with rules justly enforced, then one could be proud of having points accumulated to make his time on earth more comfortable.

In a way, I'm jealous of those who started out with less than I did!  I would like the privilege of knowing that the comfort I enjoy is a result of services I've provided to the group worthy of their tax credits in exchange.  If money were the only consideration, I'd desire to start out alongside the poorest in our group, to be sure that I wasn't given some special advantage.  But in our real world I would not trade places with them and that's how I know our world is unfair.  I know that some are destined to grow up in broken homes, full of violence, receive substandard educations, etc.

While I started out in a poor family with "nothing" in the way of financial or other assets, I realize that I still started out with much more of a head start than most other Americans and to be sure, most other humans.  I recognize that humans will always disagree about what actions are most beneficial to others and what constitutes a virtuous life.  But a good place to start (for a more just world) would be the recognition that money is just a tax credit.  By imposing a tax on an individual or activity, the group/government is telling that person what his obligation is to the group.  It follows that any tax credits stored as wealth by an individual/entity represents an obligation of the group to that individual.  That fact is true no matter how you slice it.  And it's for that reason that the poor will always harbor a disdain for the rich, especially those born rich.  And why not.  They command, by inheritance only, the service of the poor who must labor to meet their tax obligations.

I share some of your frustration.  Because I have an innate sense of fairness (don't we all?) I would have been extremely frustrated to be born rich.  I've learned that the answer is not to try to change the rich, but the system.  Don't hate the player, hate the game.  Rich or poor, we are all just playing a hand we've been dealt.  Money won't buy happiness.  But making the game more fair would make it a lot easier to sleep at night whether you have money or don't.

[PeteD01]

ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?

Find a cause you care about.

I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries.  I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.

The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.

But find out what is right for you. 

Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.

You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.

At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.

But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait.  Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.

It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.

This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.

Blasphemy!
Holy Mehrwert and his thousand Benjamins!

I order to atone for your sins you must now read "Das Kapital" not only once but twice - in German of course. That'll set you straight in more ways than one.

I have to go to contemplate the hoard a bit...

[arebelspy]

I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.

Then get off your computer and go find some meaning!  It clearly isn't here.

:)

Touche! I'm out! Enjoy your money!

Take care, and good luck.  I hope you find what you're looking for.