Author Topic: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)  (Read 4934 times)

Kashmani

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #100 on: September 11, 2018, 04:14:53 PM »
I have lived as a foreigner in both countries. As a German, I first moved to the United States, and then to Canada. 14 years ago I became a Canadian citizen.

The benefit of Canada is (1) that it is more multicultural and generally more accepting of other cultures and (2) that it has universal healthcare, which is nice for those with pre-existing conditions. But aside from that, the cost of living in the U.S. tends to be much cheaper. Houses, cars, gasoline, food, alcohol and taxes in general are very high here. So unless you are moving for the universal healthcare (which is paid for by significantly higher income taxes), I don't see how such a move could possibly save you money.

Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2018, 06:06:50 AM »
I have lived as a foreigner in both countries. As a German, I first moved to the United States, and then to Canada. 14 years ago I became a Canadian citizen.

The benefit of Canada is (1) that it is more multicultural and generally more accepting of other cultures and (2) that it has universal healthcare, which is nice for those with pre-existing conditions. But aside from that, the cost of living in the U.S. tends to be much cheaper. Houses, cars, gasoline, food, alcohol and taxes in general are very high here. So unless you are moving for the universal healthcare (which is paid for by significantly higher income taxes), I don't see how such a move could possibly save you money.

Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

I'm doubtful of your number 1 claim. While it feels like Canada is more accepting, or may feel more multicultural, I don't think it actually is. Canada has a White (non-hispanic) population that the US did in 1990. Canada is around 73% White while the US is ~60%. That may not seem like a big difference, but it has created a real power struggle. Canada seems calm now because it is more or less homogeneous enough to still control all the political decisions.

You can observe some of the tensions happening in Toronto today. If and when Canada's demographics look more like the US's, I think you'll see similar political battles.

But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2018, 06:49:25 AM »
I have lived as a foreigner in both countries. As a German, I first moved to the United States, and then to Canada. 14 years ago I became a Canadian citizen.

The benefit of Canada is (1) that it is more multicultural and generally more accepting of other cultures and (2) that it has universal healthcare, which is nice for those with pre-existing conditions. But aside from that, the cost of living in the U.S. tends to be much cheaper. Houses, cars, gasoline, food, alcohol and taxes in general are very high here. So unless you are moving for the universal healthcare (which is paid for by significantly higher income taxes), I don't see how such a move could possibly save you money.

Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

I'm doubtful of your number 1 claim. While it feels like Canada is more accepting, or may feel more multicultural, I don't think it actually is. Canada has a White (non-hispanic) population that the US did in 1990. Canada is around 73% White while the US is ~60%. That may not seem like a big difference, but it has created a real power struggle. Canada seems calm now because it is more or less homogeneous enough to still control all the political decisions.

You can observe some of the tensions happening in Toronto today. If and when Canada's demographics look more like the US's, I think you'll see similar political battles.

This is an interesting, almost philisophical argument:  Canada seems more accepting because its majority does not yet feel under threat due to its supermajority.
I'm not sure if I buy either claim.

To start out, which region of Canada you are talking about makes an enormous difference when comparing it to the US.  Both countries have areas that are widely accepting as well as regions that are intensely resistant to outsiders.  Québec city always struck me as the latter - with is in itself very interesting because its QC is among the least diverse cities in either country.  Just a few hours down the road Montréal has one of the most diverse compositions of any city in Eastern Canada (along with Toronto).  Are there tensions and racist assholes there?  Absolutely, but by-and-large both the laws/regulations and the citizens there are very accepting of outsiders, much like NYC.  At the same time, politicians in QC openly talk about the "Montreal problem" - it took me years to udnerstand that this so-called 'Montreal problem" was that Montreal was assimilating so many immigrants that people outside Montreal started considering it 'un-quebeçois'. 
I hear similar arguments made in the US - people from overwhelmingly white, conservative areas point to cities like LA or Chicago as 'crime-ridden cesspools overrun by immigrants who don't share our values'. These statements were made openly during the 2016 GOP primary and Presidential election.  Yet people who are actually from those cities have a fairly positive opinion of their area.

I will say that at this moment Immigration Canada unequivocally has policies that are far more friendly to educated foreigners becoming Canadian citizens than does the US. Right now the US is undergoing a contraction in legal immigration. 

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2018, 07:10:57 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2018, 08:00:35 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

I think a core problem with this line of thinking is that it starts with the phrases "Canada is..." and "the US is..."  To paraphrase a Canadian former broadcaster: one of the great mistakes that Canadians make is to consider it to be nationally homogenous in terms of its views, composition and culture.  The same can be said of Canada.
There are regions in both countries which are overwhelmingly white and religiously homogenous. At the same time there are metropolitan areas that are very diverse.

I'm also confused by what you mean when you say that 'the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration.'  Vancouver is 1/3 Asian, and very soon whites will no longer be in the majority.  Likewise Toronto is only 50% white, and a good chunk (~1/3) of its population is from African or South-Asian decent. Likewise, 1/3 of Montréal and Calgary are 'visible minorities' with most coming from 'warm weather' locales like Africa, the Middle East and SE Asia.  Collectively these are Canada's four largest metropolitan areas.  To the degree that one can make sweeping generalizations about a geographically huge country like Canada, it is that it has seen a large influx of 'visible minorities' from mostly 'warm countries' into its largest cities over the last several decades, somuchso that 'White-Canadians' will no longer hold a majority in many places within the next decade.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2018, 08:32:39 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

I think a core problem with this line of thinking is that it starts with the phrases "Canada is..." and "the US is..."  To paraphrase a Canadian former broadcaster: one of the great mistakes that Canadians make is to consider it to be nationally homogenous in terms of its views, composition and culture.  The same can be said of Canada.
There are regions in both countries which are overwhelmingly white and religiously homogenous. At the same time there are metropolitan areas that are very diverse.

I'm also confused by what you mean when you say that 'the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration.'  Vancouver is 1/3 Asian, and very soon whites will no longer be in the majority.  Likewise Toronto is only 50% white, and a good chunk (~1/3) of its population is from African or South-Asian decent. Likewise, 1/3 of Montréal and Calgary are 'visible minorities' with most coming from 'warm weather' locales like Africa, the Middle East and SE Asia.  Collectively these are Canada's four largest metropolitan areas.  To the degree that one can make sweeping generalizations about a geographically huge country like Canada, it is that it has seen a large influx of 'visible minorities' from mostly 'warm countries' into its largest cities over the last several decades, somuchso that 'White-Canadians' will no longer hold a majority in many places within the next decade.

You've changed the argument on me. The argument was that Canada doesn't have a similar climate to areas of large emigration. The fact that almost all immigrants settle in a few places goes to my point that Canada is more urban than the US in general. The problem that you are talking about emerging in the Toronto area in the next decade has been happening in the US for several decades. Modern immigration aside, the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada. I'm not saying that that is a good or bad thing. It's just the reality of their respective histories.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2018, 09:01:15 AM »
Hey,

For various reasons, my SO and i have decided to attempt to immigrate from the US to Canada. I would love to hear from the MMM community about the pitfalls of such a move and generally whether this is a positive step from a frugality and FIRE perspective or a step back. I'm really interested to hear from people who have done this or seriously considered it and backed out. 

We are currently living in Philadelphia and are targeting either Montreal or one of several non-Toronto cities in Ontario. I intend to keep my job with an American company and work remotely. My wife is an author and we have a limited liability partnership in the US to publish her work. We also own a piece of a house (the bank owns the rest via mortgage).

Thanks for any advice, well wishes, facepunches or other thoughts! :D

i'm no expert but  i love montreal 's vibe and cheap housing.  quebec housing is very cheap.  altho i have heard ppl slog the city of quebec for being provincial and close minded

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2018, 09:31:29 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

Huh? July to Sept how much hotter do you want things?

I'm sure the summer is hotter during a deadly heat wave in many regions but other than that not sure how much hotter than the high 20's low 30s (80-90s) you want the weather to be during the summer. If any thing the fact that it doesnt get much hotter than low 90s most days is a good thing - especially as the trend to warmer weather continues.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2018, 10:34:17 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

I think a core problem with this line of thinking is that it starts with the phrases "Canada is..." and "the US is..."  To paraphrase a Canadian former broadcaster: one of the great mistakes that Canadians make is to consider it to be nationally homogenous in terms of its views, composition and culture.  The same can be said of Canada.
There are regions in both countries which are overwhelmingly white and religiously homogenous. At the same time there are metropolitan areas that are very diverse.

I'm also confused by what you mean when you say that 'the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration.'  Vancouver is 1/3 Asian, and very soon whites will no longer be in the majority.  Likewise Toronto is only 50% white, and a good chunk (~1/3) of its population is from African or South-Asian decent. Likewise, 1/3 of Montréal and Calgary are 'visible minorities' with most coming from 'warm weather' locales like Africa, the Middle East and SE Asia.  Collectively these are Canada's four largest metropolitan areas.  To the degree that one can make sweeping generalizations about a geographically huge country like Canada, it is that it has seen a large influx of 'visible minorities' from mostly 'warm countries' into its largest cities over the last several decades, somuchso that 'White-Canadians' will no longer hold a majority in many places within the next decade.

You've changed the argument on me. The argument was that Canada doesn't have a similar climate to areas of large emigration. The fact that almost all immigrants settle in a few places goes to my point that Canada is more urban than the US in general. The problem that you are talking about emerging in the Toronto area in the next decade has been happening in the US for several decades. Modern immigration aside, the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada. I'm not saying that that is a good or bad thing. It's just the reality of their respective histories.

No.  the point that I am trying to make is that making sweeping generalizations about either countries leads to lots of erroneous conclusions, particularly on a regional level. I'm certainly NOT calling these shifts problems, but these demographic shifts have been ongoing for decades, not just something which has is predicted to happen in the coming decades. Heck, Toronto was more diverse than Chicago back in the 1980s. Sure, Quebec is way less diverse than California, but the reverse could be said about Montana and Ontario.  If we insist on comparing the entire countries, about the major difference is that the US has had a much larger latino population per capita for decades while Canada has had a great deal more immigration from SE Asia (again, relative to their population sizes).

You are also mistaken that 'Canada is more urban than the US in general'. Currently both countries have roughly ~80% of their population living in metropolitan areas. Both countries have trended towards increasingly urban populations since the 1980s.  Its also not at all clear how you measuring immigration when you say that "the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada".  Canada and the US have followed largely parallel tracks with occasional differences.  Ironically, in the last several decades Canada has allowed more immigrants per capita than the US, and these immigrants are overwhelmingly from many of the places you speak of.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2018, 10:46:00 AM »

Quote
But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

I think a core problem with this line of thinking is that it starts with the phrases "Canada is..." and "the US is..."  To paraphrase a Canadian former broadcaster: one of the great mistakes that Canadians make is to consider it to be nationally homogenous in terms of its views, composition and culture.  The same can be said of Canada.
There are regions in both countries which are overwhelmingly white and religiously homogenous. At the same time there are metropolitan areas that are very diverse.

I'm also confused by what you mean when you say that 'the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration.'  Vancouver is 1/3 Asian, and very soon whites will no longer be in the majority.  Likewise Toronto is only 50% white, and a good chunk (~1/3) of its population is from African or South-Asian decent. Likewise, 1/3 of Montréal and Calgary are 'visible minorities' with most coming from 'warm weather' locales like Africa, the Middle East and SE Asia.  Collectively these are Canada's four largest metropolitan areas.  To the degree that one can make sweeping generalizations about a geographically huge country like Canada, it is that it has seen a large influx of 'visible minorities' from mostly 'warm countries' into its largest cities over the last several decades, somuchso that 'White-Canadians' will no longer hold a majority in many places within the next decade.

You've changed the argument on me. The argument was that Canada doesn't have a similar climate to areas of large emigration. The fact that almost all immigrants settle in a few places goes to my point that Canada is more urban than the US in general. The problem that you are talking about emerging in the Toronto area in the next decade has been happening in the US for several decades. Modern immigration aside, the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada. I'm not saying that that is a good or bad thing. It's just the reality of their respective histories.

Given that I'm a white guy living in an area of the East end that is about 70% minority from warm climates, I'm a little confused.  What 'problem' are you referring to that is emerging in the Toronto area?

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2018, 11:26:58 AM »
You are also mistaken that 'Canada is more urban than the US in general'. Currently both countries have roughly ~80% of their population living in metropolitan areas. Both countries have trended towards increasingly urban populations since the 1980s.  Its also not at all clear how you measuring immigration when you say that "the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada".  Canada and the US have followed largely parallel tracks with occasional differences.  Ironically, in the last several decades Canada has allowed more immigrants per capita than the US, and these immigrants are overwhelmingly from many of the places you speak of.

You're right. I got this one wrong. That was an assumption on my part.

Here's a great study on population differences between the US and Canada through time:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768295/

Though I don't have the time right now to go through it all...

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #111 on: September 12, 2018, 11:40:09 AM »

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But as you state. Canada is cold. All of it. More people are probably less inclined to move there. Cold regions are not highly sought after outside of people of European descent.


um...no?  The BC coast is pretty darn temperate, rarely dropping more than a few degrees below freezing along the coast.   It's gets far colder in many US cities (e.g. Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukee...) than it ever does in Vancouver, Canada's 3rd largest city.
As Retireat63 pointed out, something like 90% of Canadians live within 200km of the US boarder, and while enormous the northern half of the country is largely uninhabited. Much of Canada gets quite warm in the summer too (~90ºF/32ºC).  The climate in parts is not very different from much of Europe, as you say, but large swaths of Canada are in the same summer/winter temperature ranges as Japan and Korea and Northern China, as well as southern Argentina, Chile and Peru.
There's a couple hundred million people on several continents that live in climates typical of most Canadian cities.

Fair enough. I have visited both coasts of Canada: PEI and Victoria. But I only visited during the July-September timeframe. It's lovely, but also not what most modern immigrants would call summer weather. I would personally love to live in either of those locations. Though the amount of daylight/darkness might be more off-putting than the temperature.

However, the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration. They are not part of either the Central American migration or African/Middle Eastern/ Southeast Asian refugees. As far as I know, the regions you mention are not experiencing a mass exodus.

Perhaps that is what it would take for Canada to reach that level of diversity. Mass exodus from other cold regions of the world.

These are honestly just some random thoughts floating in my brain. I'm not saying they're correct. But Canada is more isolated geographically, White, and urbanized than the US. They are also a much smaller country population wise. Canada does not weigh more political power to rural areas. (As far as I know?). Canada has never been less White than the US (in the past 200 years). So I would personally be hesitant to think that that won't change should Canada have similar population shifts.

I think a core problem with this line of thinking is that it starts with the phrases "Canada is..." and "the US is..."  To paraphrase a Canadian former broadcaster: one of the great mistakes that Canadians make is to consider it to be nationally homogenous in terms of its views, composition and culture.  The same can be said of Canada.
There are regions in both countries which are overwhelmingly white and religiously homogenous. At the same time there are metropolitan areas that are very diverse.

I'm also confused by what you mean when you say that 'the areas you mention are not large sources of immigration.'  Vancouver is 1/3 Asian, and very soon whites will no longer be in the majority.  Likewise Toronto is only 50% white, and a good chunk (~1/3) of its population is from African or South-Asian decent. Likewise, 1/3 of Montréal and Calgary are 'visible minorities' with most coming from 'warm weather' locales like Africa, the Middle East and SE Asia.  Collectively these are Canada's four largest metropolitan areas.  To the degree that one can make sweeping generalizations about a geographically huge country like Canada, it is that it has seen a large influx of 'visible minorities' from mostly 'warm countries' into its largest cities over the last several decades, somuchso that 'White-Canadians' will no longer hold a majority in many places within the next decade.

You've changed the argument on me. The argument was that Canada doesn't have a similar climate to areas of large emigration. The fact that almost all immigrants settle in a few places goes to my point that Canada is more urban than the US in general. The problem that you are talking about emerging in the Toronto area in the next decade has been happening in the US for several decades. Modern immigration aside, the US has always been dealing with a wider variety of backgrounds than Canada. I'm not saying that that is a good or bad thing. It's just the reality of their respective histories.

Given that I'm a white guy living in an area of the East end that is about 70% minority from warm climates, I'm a little confused.  What 'problem' are you referring to that is emerging in the Toronto area?

The problem of racial tensions getting worse. I've spent very little time in Toronto. Mostly in Brampton. It doesn't take much reading too much news to find that these international groups are perfectly integrated:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/brampton-a-story-of-political-importance-power-and-ethnic-enclaves/article30273820/

FIPurpose

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #112 on: September 12, 2018, 11:54:52 AM »
No.  the point that I am trying to make is that making sweeping generalizations about either countries leads to lots of erroneous conclusions, particularly on a regional level. I'm certainly NOT calling these shifts problems, but these demographic shifts have been ongoing for decades, not just something which has is predicted to happen in the coming decades. Heck, Toronto was more diverse than Chicago back in the 1980s. Sure, Quebec is way less diverse than California, but the reverse could be said about Montana and Ontario.  If we insist on comparing the entire countries, about the major difference is that the US has had a much larger latino population per capita for decades while Canada has had a great deal more immigration from SE Asia (again, relative to their population sizes).

You're right I made sweeping generalizations that were not correct. There are diverse places and non diverse places in both countries. I was trying to create bigger trends but really just ended up trying to fit the facts into a narrative I already had in my mind.

It's difficult to compare a countries that have different geographies and a population difference of 10x. Someone in the states could be living in Atlanta and think that the US has little Asian immigration while someone living in Seattle will think that the black population is much smaller than it actually is. But I think it's a mistake to take Canada's marginally larger immigration numbers to create the narrative that that makes Canada better at integrating or treating foreigners better. As I've said, I don't think white Canada has actually felt the loss of political power that WASP Americans have. I don't think Canada has the magical culture that will avoid the recent nationalism that is being seen in the US and Europe.

letsdoit

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #113 on: September 12, 2018, 06:15:11 PM »
i've always had the hunch (i hope i'm wrong) that canada will become more  backlashy against immigration and integration.  US and australia certainly are

FLBiker

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2018, 09:13:51 AM »
Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

As a Floridian in the process of applying for Canadian residency, I feel compelled to reply.  The simple answer is because there are more important things to me than money and outdoor air temperature (without denying that both of those things are nice). 

The longer answer undoubtedly varies for everyone.  For us, it mostly comes down to where we think we'd like to raise our daughter (she's 3).  We'd like her to go to school without active shooter drills and armed guards.  We'd like her to grow up in a place that believes everyone should have basic health insurance.  With an eye towards the longer long term, we'd like to set her up in a place that seems somewhat well positioned for climate change (small population, lots of fresh water, lots of land, fewer guns).  Admittedly, it's a crap shoot in a lot of ways -- we might not get in, there might be other problems that end up bothering us more (as every place is imperfect), things might change -- but we feel like she'll be set up better for the next 100 or so years in Canada than in the US.  It also seems like it wouldn't be a bad place to FIRE since healthcare is separate from employment.  We're probably about 70% of the way there.  We shall see.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:27:24 AM by FLBiker »

nereo

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2018, 09:19:54 AM »
i've always had the hunch (i hope i'm wrong) that canada will become more  backlashy against immigration and integration.  US and australia certainly are
What do you think would cause this shift?

letsdoit

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2018, 10:55:14 AM »
i do not have the expertise to answer this question. 
alot of countries are becoming more while nationalist and many (yikes!) closer to dictatorships
again, i hope i am wrong that canada would follow the trend . 
si vous etes de la belle province, assuming that is quebec, i would be interested to hear your opinion. 

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2018, 11:31:00 AM »
i've always had the hunch (i hope i'm wrong) that canada will become more  backlashy against immigration and integration.  US and australia certainly are
What do you think would cause this shift?

To be honest, my wife and I both kind of think this, too.  The reality is, as people get more scared (ie as resources get scarcer, terrorism attacks and other violence more frequent, extreme weather more frequent) nationalism is a common side effect.  That's part of why (as white people) we chose Canada over some place like Taiwan (where I lived for 5 years and really love).  It's unfortunate that such things were part of our considerations, but they were.

Also, though, these things (nationalism / anti-immigrant / etc.) tend to ebb and flow, like lots of things, so it's tough to know if / when the next cycle will hit.  I certainly do agree, though, that it's a common trend in many countries right now.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2018, 12:06:24 PM »
i've always had the hunch (i hope i'm wrong) that canada will become more  backlashy against immigration and integration.  US and australia certainly are
What do you think would cause this shift?
Trusting people who don't look like you is a very new phenomenon, and much easier in small doses. Some countries are better than others at it, no doubt.

nkt0

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2018, 12:56:38 PM »
Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

…And you don't need to. My reasons are my own.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2018, 02:36:11 PM »
Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

…And you don't need to. My reasons are my own.
Don't worry, millions of Canadians understand your reasons quite well. Honestly, many of us don't understand why you would want to stay in America ;)

Don't feel a need to defend your reasons, Kashmani was taking a cheap shot at Canada and trying to imply it wasn't as good a country. Its a fairly common American response, most non-americans worldwide are quite use to the sentiment that some Americans think their country is #1 in all ways. We gladly accept Americans who are willing to give other places a chance to show how nice life can be.

nkt0

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2018, 03:25:47 PM »
We gladly accept Americans who are willing to give other places a chance to show how nice life can be.

That's our hope. :D

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2018, 03:31:12 PM »
Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

…And you don't need to. My reasons are my own.
Don't worry, millions of Canadians understand your reasons quite well. Honestly, many of us don't understand why you would want to stay in America ;)

Don't feel a need to defend your reasons, Kashmani was taking a cheap shot at Canada and trying to imply it wasn't as good a country. Its a fairly common American response, most non-americans worldwide are quite use to the sentiment that some Americans think their country is #1 in all ways. We gladly accept Americans who are willing to give other places a chance to show how nice life can be.

Yup.

There’s more to living somewhere than just weather and taxes.
Besides, some of us are huge fans of the services that our taxes buy us and would prefer to live somewhere with higher taxes.

Personally, my dream is to move to Iqaluit, which is fucking cold, oppressively dark half the year, and insanely expensive to live with extremely limited resources. I’m willing to pay a premium to be cold and inconvenienced.
Different people have different priorities.

nereo

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2018, 04:27:18 PM »
Listen - you live in the richest country in the world. You literally have states with a warm climate and no income taxes (Florida). You have a gazillion small towns with cheap housing that aren't as cold as the North Pole. I honestly don't understand why you would want to leave that country.

…And you don't need to. My reasons are my own.
Don't worry, millions of Canadians understand your reasons quite well. Honestly, many of us don't understand why you would want to stay in America ;)

Don't feel a need to defend your reasons, Kashmani was taking a cheap shot at Canada and trying to imply it wasn't as good a country. Its a fairly common American response, most non-americans worldwide are quite use to the sentiment that some Americans think their country is #1 in all ways. We gladly accept Americans who are willing to give other places a chance to show how nice life can be.

Yup.

There’s more to living somewhere than just weather and taxes.
Besides, some of us are huge fans of the services that our taxes buy us and would prefer to live somewhere with higher taxes.

Personally, my dream is to move to Iqaluit, which is fucking cold, oppressively dark half the year, and insanely expensive to live with extremely limited resources. I’m willing to pay a premium to be cold and inconvenienced.
Different people have different priorities.

I rather like the weather in Canada - at least along the boarder where most of the population lives.  Iqualuit - wow.  I spent a day there enroute to Qikiqtarjuaq. Very interesting airport but I'm sure that's a place I'd want to live permanently. To each their own though.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2018, 02:44:29 PM »
My husband was the one who decided to move from the US to Canada to live, and the only place that would do was Toronto.  Personally, I liked Windsor very much, also Montreal and Kingston, but he did not want to compromise on his dream.  We were both shocked at the prices but in the end, we bought a detached house in Toronto.  We are considered seasonal residents and are able to do everything except work, vote, or use the health system.  There are no children, but if we had them, they would not be eligible to enroll in school under the seasonal resident status.  We like it here and it is a great place for Mustachian living after FI, with excellent public transport and plenty of access to money-saving opportunities.  Without FI, of course, it is a terrible place to live.

letsdoit

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #125 on: September 19, 2018, 03:17:58 PM »
My husband was the one who decided to move from the US to Canada to live, and the only place that would do was Toronto.  Personally, I liked Windsor very much, also Montreal and Kingston, but he did not want to compromise on his dream.  We were both shocked at the prices but in the end, we bought a detached house in Toronto.  We are considered seasonal residents and are able to do everything except work, vote, or use the health system.  There are no children, but if we had them, they would not be eligible to enroll in school under the seasonal resident status.  We like it here and it is a great place for Mustachian living after FI, with excellent public transport and plenty of access to money-saving opportunities.  Without FI, of course, it is a terrible place to live.

of course, terrible?  how so?

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2018, 05:16:18 PM »
The housing prices are so astronomical that it is much more difficult than necessary to build FI. The average detached house costs CAD 1.5 million, for example. We also paud15% foreign buyers tax.

nkt0

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #127 on: September 20, 2018, 05:35:04 AM »
The housing prices are so astronomical that it is much more difficult than necessary to build FI. The average detached house costs CAD 1.5 million, for example. We also paud15% foreign buyers tax.

Yeah, that's why we're not even considering anything within 100km of Toronto or Vancouver. I'm headed to Windsor on Saturday to scope it out. It's the front-runner right now…

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #128 on: September 20, 2018, 07:50:44 AM »
We are considered seasonal residents and are able to do everything except work, vote, or use the health system.

So what happens if you get sick / injured?  Do you have to pay out of pocket?  Or can do you carry private insurance?

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2018, 08:34:33 AM »
A few years ago I was staying at a hotel across the street from a conference I was attending in Toronto and there was a lady from Montreal there too. Each morning, I would automatically jaywalk across the street while her natural inclination was to walk to the end of the block, use the crosswalk there, then backtrack to the conference centre. So from my single experience,  I concluded that Montreal-ers don't jaywalk much :)

I don't know what happened, we sure used to.  I was at a conference in a small town in upper New York State in the early 80's, and a bunch of us walked into town for dinner.  The other Montrealer and I crossed at all the red lights, while everyone else stopped.  There was truly no street traffic.

I also was shocked at how good Toronto drivers were at stopping for pedestrian crossings (this was in the 50's and 60's) - you took your life in your hands expecting a Montreal driver to stop for you.  Things have changed, Toronto is a horrible city to drive in now, I sure would not want to be a pedestrian there.

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Re: Moving to Canada (aka I need more maple syrup in my life)
« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2018, 07:38:31 PM »
We have insurance in the US, which covers us for emergencies in other countries. Part of the requirements for being seasonal residents is that you have a residence outside of Canada.  We are also just finishing getting our documents for Express Entry (permanent residency) with our lawyer. If for some reason that does not succeed, the lawyer advises one of us to get an additional Master’s degree as a Canadian student, which should then be enough points no matter what. Until either being admitted as permanent residents or as student and spouse, we will just stay seasonal residents.