Author Topic: More electric bike advice  (Read 2531 times)

slugsworth

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More electric bike advice
« on: February 27, 2022, 03:46:53 PM »
So, I thought I was being frugal after picking up a midtail yuba boda boda (older model) with an after market bafang middrive motor. After almost a year the motor died and the battery is pretty comprised as well. So, options are:

- get a new bafang mid drive motor and battery
- buy a rad wagon or similar (I could sell the yuba as an analog bike)
- buy a fancier ebike

Advice from folks that know more about ebikes than me? Option #1 and 2 are not radically different in price though I could sell the yuba if I bought the rad wagon. . .. But arguably a mid drive is better than a hub motor and it seems rad bikes aren't really meant to last.

Background, 1 toddler in a hilly area and a bike friendly family. Any advice is welcome.

Blender Bender

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2022, 03:59:20 PM »
Use the most precious motor you already have - mitochondrias.

slugsworth

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2022, 07:18:19 PM »
Not practical given toddler transportation and my local topography. I haven't had to walk my bike up and if the hills, but it isn't uncommon. This basically gets us down to one car but won't without a motor.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2022, 07:41:51 PM »
Haven't had problems with our rad wagon v1 so far (past being banged up in shipping and cables being very poorly tensioned from the factory), but mileage has been cut way down by pandemic and me going full-time remote.

Dee_the_third

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2022, 08:17:17 AM »
You happy with the mid tail setup? You expect to grow out of it anytime soon? Personally I would go for a new rad. I know the 'MMM philosophy' frowns on paying for convenience and reliability (just fix it yourself duur) but with a toddler and the ebike as a primary transport mode, I'm at peace with outsourcing some stuff. You just need it to work, y'know?

Let's say the rad only lasts 5 years. By that point your kid is ready to move up anyways.

You guys got road salt or anything else hard on bikes? Is this your primary transport mode?

BikeFanatic

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2022, 08:41:58 AM »
How bad are the hills you say one you had to walk up, thats pretty steep is it just a part of the commute or the whole way?
Hub motors are easy to install more so than mid drive, but you have the set up for a mid drive allready so that may negate it.
I can say that I have burned out the lower power hub motors on big LONG hills, especially the geared smaller 350 watt hub motors.
My advice is to get a direct drive ( no gears) hub motor on ebay or from grin cycles. Ebay you pay 200-300 including controller.
From Grin in canada it will be more expensive but also bullet proof and they do advise you, and have warrentees.

PS I forgot you need a new battery too so I recommend Grin tech or ebikes.ca they ship everywhere and have the best products. you need great products for the hills ( mountains).

DadJokes

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2022, 09:57:23 AM »
I bought a Ride1Up a couple years ago and enjoy it when I do ride it. The bike I got runs about $1,500.

Sadly, the area isn't too bike friendly, and I'm probably going to end up selling the bike before too long (so if you're anywhere near TN and want a bike for a discount, PM me).

slugsworth

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2022, 11:37:54 AM »
How bad are the hills you say one you had to walk up, thats pretty steep is it just a part of the commute or the whole way?

I haven't had to walk the bike yet, but it isn't out of the question. Basically short punchy hills of 400'-500' in elevation. We live near the top of the ridge in the neighborhood so going 1.5 miles to Grandmas is on the other side of one, a favorite park is on the other side of one, the grocery store and child care is on the other side of a smaller hill. On my standard bike none of them are a thing, but with a heavy bike + yep seat + toddler it is more than I want to muscle.

Thanks for the insight, I'll take a look at the Canadian company

RobertFromTX

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2022, 07:54:03 PM »
I'm in Salt Lake City and I've had to walk my bike on a few hills. And I'm mid-30's and run in the mountains all the time.

Every time I hit this one hill on a dedicated bike path, I think about getting an ebike.

gooki

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2022, 11:56:06 PM »
How has the motor died?

Most likely causes are bad wiring, dead sensor, or the motor controller has given up.

All of them can be fixed at a reasonable cost if you know what you are doing.

slugsworth

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 06:30:14 PM »
Sensor error code, and my local electric bike shop said they couldn't fix it after doing some trouble shooting and the other electric bike shop near by referred me to them. That being said, I was riding home and heard a sound from the motor that wasn't good.

ChpBstrd

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2022, 09:28:24 PM »
Only getting 1 year out of an e-bike is not encouraging. When we start talking several hundred dollars depreciation per year and blowing out on hills, beater cars start to look comparable in cost and reliability.

I wonder if the battery/motor were overheating hauling 2 people uphill, and that's what shortened their lives? It kind of reminds me of the Nissan Leaf experience, where lithium ion battery packs without active cooling systems didn't last long. I'm curious about cooling tech for e-bikes, which are currently at a primitive state of development IMO.

I'm sort of halfheartedly doing an experiment with a banged up 2008 50cc Kymco scooter I picked up for $50 and mechanically restored. I have maybe $300 plus lots of hours in it now, but it hasn't yet replaced a car (still working out one bug). The carbon footprint is not so bad when you consider lithium mining for a battery that gets trashed in a couple of years vs. something that might burn 50 gallons of gas per year as a daily driver and could last several years with care. However, it's still a device that discourages healthy exercise, so I'm not an advocate or anything.

gooki

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2022, 02:18:10 AM »
Quote
I wonder if the battery/motor were overheating hauling 2 people uphill, and that's what shortened their lives?

Unlikely. It's a crank drive motor that drives through the gears and the maximum power draw is limited by the electronic speed controller. My guess is if it's not a connector issue, the it's most likely the speed controller. These are replaceable in the BBS motors. I'd say open it up and look for burned electronics.

The battery should be able to be brought back to near full capacity by rebalancing the cells. Not difficult but does require opening it up and some specialist knowledge/tools.

roomtempmayo

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2022, 08:03:35 AM »

- buy a fancier ebike


This is a nonmustashian answer, but the cheaper ebikes seem to have a fair number of issues.

I know a few people with Bosch-based ebikes, and they've all been trouble free.

I expect that the newish Shimano system will also be good, but I don't know anyone who has one yet.

ChpBstrd

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2022, 09:11:12 AM »

- buy a fancier ebike


This is a nonmustashian answer, but the cheaper ebikes seem to have a fair number of issues.

I know a few people with Bosch-based ebikes, and they've all been trouble free.

I expect that the newish Shimano system will also be good, but I don't know anyone who has one yet.

I fail to understand how an electric bicycle / motorcycle should cost half of what a complete car with air conditioning and power windows costs. Either we're in the hand-crafted phase of this industry or somebody is earning massive margins.

windytrail

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2022, 01:30:04 PM »
I don't know much about e-bikes (as I ride a regular bike) but want to encourage you to read the reviews and find a good quality e-bike that will last. Don't listen to anyone who tries to convince you to buy a clown car.

Bikes > cars.

gooki

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2022, 07:13:37 PM »

- buy a fancier ebike


This is a nonmustashian answer, but the cheaper ebikes seem to have a fair number of issues.

I know a few people with Bosch-based ebikes, and they've all been trouble free.

I expect that the newish Shimano system will also be good, but I don't know anyone who has one yet.

I fail to understand how an electric bicycle / motorcycle should cost half of what a complete car with air conditioning and power windows costs. Either we're in the hand-crafted phase of this industry or somebody is earning massive margins.

You can get Bosch and Shimano powered ebikes for $2k and up.

roomtempmayo

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2022, 10:12:31 AM »

You can get Bosch and Shimano powered ebikes for $2k and up.

My wife bought a Trek with a Bosch motor last spring for about $2400.  It's been trouble free.

I'm inclined to think an extra $1000-1500 for something that will really last is money well spent.

As for the "That's as much as a used car!" position, the ongoing costs are much lower than a car (no license, insurance, very little maintenance, very little fuel), and if someone has a dead reliable Toyota that isn't all used up that they want to sell for $2400, I'll buy it today.  As far as I can tell, the market value of a basic reliable car is about twice that of a fancy bike now.

Cranky

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2022, 12:48:55 PM »
Frankly, I’m rethinking buying an ebike. I had no idea they were so finicky.

BikeFanatic

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2022, 06:35:20 AM »
Get a good battery, good motor and decent bike controller and they are not so finicky.

Fishindude

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2022, 09:48:00 AM »
We've owned two Rad Rover fat tire e-bikes for 2-3 years now and have been pretty satisfied, ride the heck out of them and haven't had any issues. 
Use mine quite a bit off road in the fall hunting.  Works out pretty slick.

Cranky

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2022, 01:06:09 PM »
Get a good battery, good motor and decent bike controller and they are not so finicky.

I feel like that’s the trick, though.

BikeFanatic

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2022, 01:13:37 PM »
Well one great company in Canada but ships to USA is grin cycles, or ebike.ca they are leaders in Upgrading chinese motors and electronics to USA standards. They have customer service warranty and build anything electric but mostly bikes. They have been around since I first started with electrics somewhere around 2005. If you buy from them you can be confident in the product.
I have also had good luck with ebikekit.com USA in Philly.
Then there is em3ev in china, the guy sold me some great controllers and batteries.
Do start a DIY thread here for help and I think you will love your Ebike.
Pre pandemic I lived in the city and biked to work winter and summer for 19 years straight and the Ebike allowed me to stay committed and was such fun in the snow. I have pedaled plenty but the Ebike is like a whole new world.

slugsworth

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2022, 08:18:48 AM »
Only getting 1 year out of an e-bike is not encouraging. When we start talking several hundred dollars depreciation per year and blowing out on hills, beater cars start to look comparable in cost and reliability.

I wonder if the battery/motor were overheating hauling 2 people uphill, and that's what shortened their lives?

I got a year or of it, but I was the 3rd owner. There was about 2500 miles on the odometer, but I imagine actual mileage could be higher than what it displayed.

ChpBstrd

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2022, 11:51:31 AM »
Only getting 1 year out of an e-bike is not encouraging. When we start talking several hundred dollars depreciation per year and blowing out on hills, beater cars start to look comparable in cost and reliability.

I wonder if the battery/motor were overheating hauling 2 people uphill, and that's what shortened their lives?

I got a year or of it, but I was the 3rd owner. There was about 2500 miles on the odometer, but I imagine actual mileage could be higher than what it displayed.
Depreciation and longevity are definitely big factors here. A vehicle that wears out at 2500 miles will only last a 10-mile daily commuter about a year. Even if it's 2 or 3 years, that's still a lot of depreciation for a vehicle that might cost a couple grand. An old subcompact car with maybe 10k miles left in it depreciates slower than that (albeit with offsetting higher maintenance, insurance, and fuel costs).

I wonder if anyone has studied the relative cost of various options at the low end of the transportation options. For example, with made-up numbers:

VEHICLE                  DEPRECIATION 2500 MILES       FUEL+MAINTENANCE       EST LONGEVITY
nice pedal bike         $500                                              $40                                       15y
e-bike, cheap            $1000                                            $75                                       3y
e-bike, nice               $1000                                            $85                                        5y
50cc scooter, cheap  $500                                              $300                                     4y
50cc scooter, nice     $700                                              $250                                     10y
beater car                 $800                                               $1000                                   3y

Of course, at this low level of transportation spending, incidental items such as blown motors or flat tires would introduce so much variance that a decision based on those estimates might not be so helpful, especially for the beater car. For it, a couple of tow bills or a particular mechanical problem would blow all the estimates out of the water.

Arbitrage

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2022, 03:36:49 PM »
Let's not overreact on statistical arguments from a sample size of 1, especially when we don't know the past history of that bike.  My e-bike was not a particularly expensive one ($1700, Juiced Bikes), and is doing just fine at 7000+ miles and 4 years, though I'll need a battery replacement at some point.  Electric motors are very reliable in general, and I don't think I've heard of any real controller problems with e-bikes.  The portion of the e- part of the bike that tends to wear out is the battery.  Of course, you'll be taking a bit more risk with DIY bikes, since there's a reasonable chance that they weren't engineered properly.

I don't know where you're hearing that Rad Cycles aren't reliable; I've heard just the opposite, and that they're well-supported by service as well. 

I'm getting a fancier e-bike myself, but that's not because my current one is worn out.  We could use a second bike for the family, and the newer one will also open up some additional options for fun use in our new location (more power, full suspension MTB, mid-drive better fit for all of the hills/mountains). 

FINate

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Re: More electric bike advice
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2022, 08:37:13 PM »
Let's not overreact on statistical arguments from a sample size of 1, especially when we don't know the past history of that bike.  My e-bike was not a particularly expensive one ($1700, Juiced Bikes), and is doing just fine at 7000+ miles and 4 years, though I'll need a battery replacement at some point.  Electric motors are very reliable in general, and I don't think I've heard of any real controller problems with e-bikes.  The portion of the e- part of the bike that tends to wear out is the battery.  Of course, you'll be taking a bit more risk with DIY bikes, since there's a reasonable chance that they weren't engineered properly.

I don't know where you're hearing that Rad Cycles aren't reliable; I've heard just the opposite, and that they're well-supported by service as well. 

I'm getting a fancier e-bike myself, but that's not because my current one is worn out.  We could use a second bike for the family, and the newer one will also open up some additional options for fun use in our new location (more power, full suspension MTB, mid-drive better fit for all of the hills/mountains).

Our Yuba Mundo w/ Bafang mid-drive is still going strong at ~6000 miles and around 6 years old. Some battery degradation, not a problem for us. The stock Dynamo powered headlight broke and I replaced it with a better one so I can ride safely at night. And I recently replaced a broken brake sensor. That's it for the electric components.

Yuba bikes are very well made, the non-electric components should be good for many many years with normal maintenance (replacing chain, chain ring, cassette, etc.). My recommendation: Buy a Bafang complete mid-drive kit w/ battery, which runs about $800, and swap out the old electronics. Less expensive than a Rad Wagon, and you should get many years and thousands of miles out of the new electronics.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 08:41:58 PM by FINate »

 

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