Author Topic: Messy Family Situation  (Read 2329 times)

avons123

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Messy Family Situation
« on: February 21, 2024, 09:21:53 AM »
Hey all, I have a messy family situation that I'm hoping to get some insight on.

For context, I'm married, and my wife and I are both mid 20's.  We have one kid with a second on the way.  Our household gross income is ~$170k, NW is $140k, savings rate is ~35% (daycare is expensive!).  We want to achieve FI as soon as possible - RE will depend on # of kids, life circumstances, etc. - we're content to continue working if we need to.

My in-laws, on the other hand, are the definition of dysfunctional.  Thanks to a heavy dose of mental illness and the encouragement of "gurus" like Grant Cardone, my FIL is convinced that he is going to create a successful marketing business from the ground up.  He's been working on a variety of ideas since 2007(!) that have all inevitably failed to generate any serious income.  We've tried to have conversations over the past few years about how this is crazy and that they need to get a job, but it always devolves into an argument about how we "doubt him" and "he's close to a breakthrough".

I don't know many details about their finances, but I know their net worth is less than $0.  They've survived the past 15 years on a combination of some income from business ventures, welfare, and handouts from family.  They have a few relatives that may leave them a small inheritance, but it won't be enough to retire on.  I don't think they'll be eligible for much SS since neither of them worked for most of their lives. 

To add to the equation, my wife's youngest sister (15 years old) has Down Syndrome and will likely require some level of assistance for the rest of her life. 

My wife's other sister (21 years old) also has mental health issues - we're not counting on her for meaningful financial/caretaking support.

I'd like feedback/advice on the following:
   1. How should we plan for my in-laws future?  Our current plan is to stock up as much money as we can in tax advantaged accounts.  Is it worth holding onto more cash? Should we look into trying to buy a duplex where we can rent half and they can live in the other half?  We will limit help as long as they are physically able to work, but at some point I envision us having to feed and house them. 
   2. What plans do we need to make regarding SIL w/ Down Syndrome?  I'm assuming we'll be able to make legal decisions once the in-laws die, but we probably need to talk to a lawyer.  Does anyone have experience with adult group homes?  That seems like a good (but expensive) option.
   3. Any other advice dealing with this situation?  We've given up trying to change their behavior and focused on what we can control, but I would be interested to hear how others have gone about situations like this.

Thanks in advance!

lhamo

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2024, 09:33:53 AM »
That's a lot to have on your plate.

I would focus on the sister with Downs first.  Does she currently get SSI?  If not, do whatever you can to get her on that program before she turns 21.   That will at least give her some income stream as an adult.  And once you are SSI qualified it is probably easier to get into other programs as well.

Be aware that your parents may well be living off of her benefits, so this might be a sensitive topic and get very tricky. 

General info here:

https://www.ndsccenter.org/wp-content/uploads/Qualify-for-SSI.pdf

Paper Chaser

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2024, 10:27:02 AM »
Your in-laws' future is their responsibility, not yours. They've had several decades to get their shit together and it sounds as if they're habitually failing to make good choices. Enabling able bodied individuals to continue to slack will only drag you down rather than lifting them up. You and your wife need to have a frank discussion about what kind of boundaries you might want to have in place. And once that consensus exists, you'll need to be firm with those boundaries. And keep in mind that every dollar you spend supporting them is a dollar that cannot be invested for your own kids' futures.

Focus on the ones who are unable to care for themselves (not the ones who are unwilling), which would be the sister with Downs. I think you might as well ask if your in-laws have made any plans for her care after they're gone (the chances are low). Once you have that answer, you can determine how much assistance you want to provide and what kind of planning it will take to get there.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 10:58:38 AM by Paper Chaser »

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2024, 01:54:27 PM »
Your in-laws' future is their responsibility, not yours.

Many U.S. states disagree with this.  In 30 of the 50 U.S. states, there are filial responsibility laws that require children to pay for some portion of their parents' basic needs if the parents are unable to pay.  I don't know the laws in other countries.  I would look at the following link, and if the state your spouse's parents reside in is one of the states that has a filial responsibility law they should probably talk to a lawyer. 

https://www.trustworthy.com/blog/legally-responsible-for-elderly-parents


Catbert

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2024, 03:35:05 PM »
I agree with others that the SIL with Downs Syndrome is the only one I'd watch out for.  lhamo had a good point about SSI for her.  How functional is she?  If possible point her toward paid employment.

The in-laws I wouldn't do anything about.   (I say that as someone older than they are.) Given your wife's age I'd assume her parents are mid-40s to 60s.  Assuming they each have 40 quarters of SS coverage, they'll get the minimum amount.  I suspect that state filial laws are rarely invoked.  At least I think we'd have all heard a lot more horror stories if they were used regularly.

If you do decide to do something (e.g., buy a duplex) don't tell them.  Knowing would mean they have even less incentive to get a job or otherwise earn money.  Buy the duplex and rent out both sides unless and until things are bad enough that your wife insists.

Good luck.

yachi

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2024, 04:17:55 PM »
I think you're clear of filial responsibility laws if you help your parents-in-law quality for medicaid for nursing home care when their funds run out.  Catbert is right that these laws are rarely invoked.  Pennsylvania has one or two of the only cases in the last 25 years.  They were used to collect medical reimbursement for bills for a patient who moved back to Greece (from the son who continued living in PA), and for the care of a disabled patient (from the parents who lived in New Jersey).

My Aunt provided space on her land for my grandparents to built a trailer home, and that situation seemed to have been successful except for a hoarding problem.  But my general fear is that parental support becomes unsustainable or infantilizing.  I've been a landlord, and I don't want to ever see my family the way my tenants forced me to see them.

avons123

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2024, 09:53:46 AM »
Thanks for the input all.  I had no idea filial responsibility laws were a thing - fortunately we live in a state without them. 

We definitely need to have a conversation with the in-laws on SSI - I'm guessing that's where some of the money is coming from to pay the bills now.  We'll see how that goes. :)

Catbert - I like your input on the duplex.  I think my wife would have a very difficult time if they were faced with homelessness in old age/after they can support themselves, so maybe a duplex that we don't tell them about and rent out in the meantime is a viable option.  Like Yachi said, I don't love that option, but I suppose it's better than letting them die on the Walmart floor?

trollwithamustache

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2024, 10:04:30 AM »
Whatever you do, get 100% on the same page as your wife years in advance.  The ladies tend to feel guilty about this stuff. 

FWIW, my view is your two kids come first, and there is potentially a big college bill there. Then after  that, I agree with taking some responsibility for the sister with Downs syndrome. As for the in-laws, they are pretty far down the list. If you actually won the lottery, I'd be ok with your idea on buying the duplex, but thats is a pretty low priority. If they retire on SSI only, you should get over any fantasy of getting rent. Hence the other responsibilities you have need to be locked down first.


davisgang90

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2024, 11:30:24 AM »
Lots of good advice so far.

We've got a 26 year old son with autism who lives with us. In addition to SSI, he works at a Goodwill store.

There is a Medicaid waiver process that is different for each state. You should investigate with your local government social services office to see if she is on the waitlist. That waiver is needs based and can provide funds for a group home or placement into a private care home (where a couple are vetted and paid to care for disabled adults in their home).

In our state (VA), there is a separate Medicaid program called CCC+ that we just got our son signed up for. It allows us to get paid a wage to supervise our son when he isn't at work (limited to a certain number of hours a week). We turn around and put all that money into a Special Needs Third Party trust set up for our son. He pays us rent each month and we put that into his SNT as well. Any left over pay from Goodwill goes into an Able account for him. Able accounts allow disabled to save more than the $2k maximum savings to qualify for SSO/Medicaid.

Lots of look into. Sorry for the stream of consciousness.

Laura33

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2024, 12:17:58 PM »
The only wrong answer is the one you and your wife disagree over.  There are many, many ways to handle these kinds of situations.  As long as you are both on the same page and agree on a plan, almost anything you do will be right.

I'd suggest talking to a lawyer/accountant about a special needs trust for the sister.  Everyone else involved has agency and responsibility for their circumstances; she does not.  If you two could set up a trust for her, fund it a bit at a time out of your excess income, keep yourself as trustee, and don't even tell your parents about it unless/until it becomes truly critical to protect her, that would be ideal, because you'd be prepared with a pot of money for when she needs your support.  But I don't know if all those things are possible, given that your wife is not her guardian. 

Chris Pascale

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2024, 12:46:23 PM »

   1. How should we plan for my in-laws future?  Our current plan is to stock up as much money as we can in tax advantaged accounts.  Is it worth holding onto more cash? Should we look into trying to buy a duplex where we can rent half and they can live in the other half?  We will limit help as long as they are physically able to work, but at some point I envision us having to feed and house them. 
   2. What plans do we need to make regarding SIL w/ Down Syndrome?  I'm assuming we'll be able to make legal decisions once the in-laws die, but we probably need to talk to a lawyer.  Does anyone have experience with adult group homes?  That seems like a good (but expensive) option.
        3. Any other advice dealing with this situation?  We've given up trying to change their behavior and focused on what we can control, but I would be interested to hear how others have gone about situations like this.

Thanks in advance!

1. Financially down the road, would you consider a little wing in your home that has a bedroom, bath, den and kitchenette?
    Emotionally, stop engaging. When FIL has any idea that's not getting a job (hopefully with a pension), wish him well, or maybe even ask him about it. You might think 'I don't want to hear about drop shipping,' but is it really any different than hearing someone talk about their cruise vacation?
"We ate until we shit, and then ate some more. You gotta buy drinks, unless you get the drink package, and I got the drink package. They have their own island, and it's SOOOOOOO nice. We got a cabana so that when we weren't sitting down with food on the boat, we were sitting down with food on this weird place devoid of humanity."
    Think of it like that. Everyone has a thing they are into. FIL is trying to better himself, but is unaware he's in a system that's either saturated, outside his skill set, a pyramid scheme (setting up a course to set up courses, for example), or just plain bad. You can't help him, and so should not try.

2. Maybe start here - https://www.ndsccenter.org/programs-resources/adult-siblings/

3. Not knowing them, I'm not sure there's anything else I can touch on. Wishing you the best.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2024, 12:39:52 AM by Chris Pascale »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2024, 12:30:37 PM »
1) Yes, stockpiling money (stocks actually) is the thing to do. This is essentially a liability hanging over your heads, so when you're wanting a bigger car, or a restaurant meal, collectible/recreational stuff, or a fancy vacation please keep this potential liability in mind. If your worst fears never happen, the only downside is you retire rich. Acting decisively and early here will give your assets the best opportunity to compound before the expenses hit.

I strongly do not recommend getting a duplex, because that's like rolling out a red carpet for in-laws who you are afraid will exploit you. I wouldn't rent to functional family members, much less dysfunctional ones. That's a guaranteed recipe for no rent and an even messier situation!

2) Maybe taking an interest in helping the parent-in-laws with the SIL with Down Syndrome could open up a relationship and help you find out details like what programs she's been signed up for, if they've looked into various programs or local educational options, if they've talked to a social worker at your state's Medicaid office, etc. Similarly, with the other sibling, are they getting the treatment they need, what programs are they signed up for, etc? This will help you quantify the issue. Right now it's a little scary because so many of the details are fuzzy.

I don't know the details but early intervention could make a big difference with either sibling. People with mental illness do routinely succeed in treatment and become functional, productive adults - and how awesome would it be to have an ally on your side in a few years? Or even a babysitter? Similarly, people with Downs can learn occupational skills and earn much of their cost of living - but they probably need to be in the right kind of school right now. One of the sanest people in my family is someone diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia who after years of treatment arrived at the correct pharmaceutical and lifestyle options, and is now a trustworthy and reliable babysitter for us.

And... who knows... maybe as you take a bigger role the parents open up to possibilities such as financial / mental health counseling for themselves? Imagine your relief if they started real jobs a couple of years from now? For all you know they're tired of falling for the hype too. You just have to start the conversation with little offers to help with the SIL's and then get closer over the course of many months. To start, have them over for dinner and ask if there's a way to help with little administrative chores.

3) The problematic thing is you've tried to change their behavior before. So they're going to be on the defensive, and will be on guard against ever being told "I told you so!" or having their own failures rubbed in their face. You'll have to cease the advice-giving / pleading approach immediately if you are to accomplish the scaled back goal of obtaining info about finances, education, or healthcare for the siblings. Your role is only to help with little chores like driving to doctor visits, arranging for taxes to be done, talking to social workers or service professionals, and relieving the burden on the parents. In doing so, you achieve your goal of steering this situation in a less tragic direction.

To get into this mindset, you'll have to let go of the fantasy that the parent-in-laws will someday get their shit together to relieve you of the burden of worrying about the sibling-in-laws. It would be best if you assumed that will never happen, and to steer the relationship in a direction where the parents do what they can, and you do what you can, and the siblings get what they need without all the burden falling on one couple (either you or the parents).

JAYSLOL

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2024, 08:52:33 PM »
I’d definitely just plan on being responsible for SIL with Downs at some point, and hard pass on any help for the rest of the family now or later on.  Also make darn sure they don’t have a clue that you are building wealth, they should all be under the impression that you are nearly as broke as they are. 

Dicey

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2024, 08:34:06 AM »
I’d definitely just plan on being responsible for SIL with Downs at some point, and hard pass on any help for the rest of the family now or later on.  Also make darn sure they don’t have a clue that you are building wealth, they should all be under the impression that you are nearly as broke as they are.
Nailed it.

mistymoney

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2024, 11:26:56 AM »
So FIL is trying to live his dream and get to that "breakthrough" using other peoples' earned money? Hard pass.

You have children to take care of. Please wake up and realize that these ILs will pull you down and leave nothing if you let them. For SIL, be prepared to help her find assistance and facilities, and maybe help with finding a medicaid nursing home for the inlaws - but as far as actual cash goes this is a money pit without a bottom.

next time you have a convo that goes on about nearing a breakthrough - I think you should be firm and say that's great, but understand that we aren't going to compromise our security and our dreams by bailing you out if it doesn't work out. Your decision to not work and not build security by the usual work a day world is your decision but understand we aren't going to be able to hand over any of the money from our jobs to help you avoid having your own job.

Be done with it!


iris lily

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Re: Messy Family Situation
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2024, 11:33:05 AM »
Lots of good advice so far.

We've got a 26 year old son with autism who lives with us. In addition to SSI, he works at a Goodwill store.

There is a Medicaid waiver process that is different for each state. You should investigate with your local government social services office to see if she is on the waitlist. That waiver is needs based and can provide funds for a group home or placement into a private care home (where a couple are vetted and paid to care for disabled adults in their home).

In our state (VA), there is a separate Medicaid program called CCC+ that we just got our son signed up for. It allows us to get paid a wage to supervise our son when he isn't at work (limited to a certain number of hours a week). We turn around and put all that money into a Special Needs Third Party trust set up for our son. He pays us rent each month and we put that into his SNT as well. Any left over pay from Goodwill goes into an Able account for him. Able accounts allow disabled to save more than the $2k maximum savings to qualify for SSO/Medicaid.

Lots of look into. Sorry for the stream of consciousness.
This is great practical information.