Thanks, Zoltani! What do you think about Olympia?
Olympia is politicians and hippies.Good farm/homesteader type network. Your kids would be close to the state capitol.But other than the state capitol it doesn't have a lot going on.
ETA: That's unfair. I apologize. I actually think Olympia is a really cool town, and you are close to the Mountains there. But I also think you're a substantial drive from most other major towns if you wanted to go explore with your kids. Somehow Olympia always feels way further out than Tacoma. That might just be my perception bias though.
Something to consider between WA and OR: you have very different taxation structures. WA - no income tax, but sales tax. OR just the opposite. So pick your poison. The Vancouver, WA area is worth looking at too - it's close to PDX for your city needs, and will be a touch warmer and a bit sunnier than the puget sound region.
Love it JPlee!
Pullman, WA or Moscow, ID (they are 15 minutes from each other). Washington State University is in Pullman and University of Idaho is in Moscow. Both cities are around 30,000 population. It's a very bikeable area, you could get a decent 3 bdrm house for about 175,000. The entrance to Hells Canyon is about a 40 minute drive from either city, and there's lots of other great camping and outdoor activities nearby as well. The biggest complaints about these cities are, too many college kids, and too rural outside of the cities.
With some of the info in your follow up posts, I actually probably also lean toward Bellingham at the top of the list. Find a nice house near Whatcom Falls park, run on trails any time. I highly recommend a long winter visit though, just so you really know what the gray is like over here in the mists.
Thanks to the multiple posters who followed up re: gardening. I checked out the frost date data/hardiness maps and WOW is Oregon variable. Looks like there are multiple microclimates due to the mountains and varying elevation. Bend is definitely out as a place to settle. A 51 day growing season?!? No way. The other towns mentioned closer to the coast have a growing season/hardiness I could work with. Most of the towns on the east side of WA/OR do have a shorter season, as Pdxcyn mentioned, so they are out. Spokane seems to be an exception -- it has a good long growing season.Something to keep in mind about gardening - the growing season in Cascadia is NOT effectively described by frost free days. Unlike pretty much the rest of the country, our growing season DOES NOT track with heat units. In a cool year our overnight lows NEVER get out of the 50s. So what this means is that winters are about as mild as the Southeast - GA, etc. - and year round growing with only a bit of season extension is pretty straightforward. HOWEVER, the maritime NW tends to have less summer heat than anywhere in the US save Alaska.
Snohomish Washington. Lake Stevens, Washington (Where I live now). Everett, Washington. Marysville, Washington. Mount Vernon, Washington. Burlington Washington. Bellingham Washington.
The cities listed above are in geographical order from south to north, heading north of Seattle. I've skipped a few cities from Seattle to Snohomish due to the price constraints on finding a 3bd/1ba for $250k range. It's possible though, and where I live there are 3bd/2ba's going for $275k'ish.
Something to keep in mind about gardening - the growing season in Cascadia is NOT effectively described by frost free days. Unlike pretty much the rest of the country, our growing season DOES NOT track with heat units.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. Are you talking about how some crops (peppers/tomatoes/eggplant) like those warm summer nights to grow well? I agree that "overall-warmth" factor is not described by frost free dates and growing season. But a 51 day growing season is a 51 day growing season, right? Without coldframes/a greenhouse/etc. that really puts a damper on what you can grow. Am I missing something? Thanks!
It's all about the Goldilocks Zone out here: not to cold, but not too hot, either. Relatedly, my impression is that, in many places, "frost free" = "planting date" within a few weeks. Whereas here you can be frost free for months and months before the soil warms up enough to germinate anything.
So, yeah, it's just a quirky place to be a gardener, but one of the best places in the world if you like those cool season crops like peas and cabbage. :) I love growing food in Western WA.
Pullman, WA or Moscow, ID (they are 15 minutes from each other). Washington State University is in Pullman and University of Idaho is in Moscow. Both cities are around 30,000 population. It's a very bikeable area, you could get a decent 3 bdrm house for about 175,000. The entrance to Hells Canyon is about a 40 minute drive from either city, and there's lots of other great camping and outdoor activities nearby as well. The biggest complaints about these cities are, too many college kids, and too rural outside of the cities.
Jeremy, as a Cougar, I think you're crazy. I couldn't wait to get out of that God-forsaken wheat field :)
I also wanted to +1 Bellingham (gorgeous little town) and -1 Vancouver (too much suburban sprawl, not enough character). Just my opinion, of course!
I have no skin in the game, but I really doubt your crime numbers Jeremy. On a population basis I can't see Seattle or Tacoma being higher crime than Yakima, for example.I guess I don't know the exact numbers of all cities. I know that on the East side, I don't lock my car or house, and have never had anything stolen, how many people on the west side can say that? but I quickly just looked at crime rates in Pullman, Seattle, Bellingham and Tacoma for 2012.
@McSaathof --
So -- loved your earlier comment about stopping by Spokane for a beer, and I went online to check out the trail possibilities and found there is a ton going on! Who knew? Excellent!!!!!!
Thanks!
I have no skin in the game, but I really doubt your crime numbers Jeremy. On a population basis I can't see Seattle or Tacoma being higher crime than Yakima, for example.I guess I don't know the exact numbers of all cities. I know that on the East side, I don't lock my car or house, and have never had anything stolen, how many people on the west side can say that? but I quickly just looked at crime rates in Pullman, Seattle, Bellingham and Tacoma for 2012.
Pullman is 65, Seattle's is 400, Bellingham is 294 and Tacoma is 567.
| City | Population | Violent Crime per 1000 people | East or West |
| Yakima | 93,257 | 5.05 | East |
| Vancouver | 167,405 | 3.54 | West |
| Spokane | 210,721 | 7.16 | East |
| Tacoma | 203,446 | 8.68 | West |
| Seattle | 652,405 | 5.82 | West |
The higher percentage of hunters and sport shooters, the higher the number of guns per household, and the lower the crime rate.
City Population Violent Crime per 1000 people East or west
Seattle 652,405 5.82 West
Tukwila 19,765 8.3 West
Tacoma 203,446 8.68 West
Port Orchard 12,959 5.71 West
Pullman 31,395 1.43 East
Kennewick 76,762 3.13 East
Yakima 93,257 5.05 East
Pasco 67,599 2.34 East
Spokane 210,721 7.16 East
Bellingham, 82,631, 3.47, WestThe higher percentage of hunters and sport shooters, the higher the number of guns per household, and the lower the crime rate.
City Population Violent Crime per 1000 people East or west
Seattle 652,405 5.82 West
Tukwila 19,765 8.3 West
Tacoma 203,446 8.68 West
Port Orchard 12,959 5.71 West
Pullman 31,395 1.43 East
Kennewick 76,762 3.13 East
Yakima 93,257 5.05 East
Pasco 67,599 2.34 East
Spokane 210,721 7.16 East
That's a pretty broad generalization and even the cities you picked don't support it. Spokane likely has a much higher percentage of hunters than Seattle, but has a higher violent crime rate. Cities of the south sound (Tacoma, Tukwila) have been less expensive in part due to crime, for a long time. Violent rime rates of other liberal cities (Bellingham, Olympia) would be interesting to compare. as well as more affluent cities like Bellevue.
If you are looking for a blue city, it's best to look west of the mountains in general.
I can't speak for Oregon as much. My impression as an outside is that you have a blue Willamette Valley surrounded by a red state, with a couple blue outposts in Ashland and Bend.
I think Spokane has potential, we've lived here for 9 years and it is getting better, but it is a city in flux right now and I think it will be another decade before it begins to reach its potential.
@McSaathof --
So -- loved your earlier comment about stopping by Spokane for a beer, and I went online to check out the trail possibilities and found there is a ton going on! Who knew? Excellent!!!!!!
Thanks!
Thanks, Spokey! I thought from your name that you might live in Spokane, but judging from your comment about it, now I am guessing not. :) Answers below and thanks for your comments! It sounds like you know the area really well.
Are you OK getting in a car to access trails? Prefer to have it closer, but if I have to drive, then yes
[/b]If so, how long you might be willing to drive? Less than 15 minutes
Do you really want to be able to ski at least semi-locally? Yes -- x-country only, no downhill
[/b][/i]Are you OK running on wet trails much of the year? A-OK. Shiggy is fine.
Are mountains important (or what types of 'nature' are you most drawn to)? Woods. Mountains are nice, but not essential.
I'd live in Bend in a heartbeat if I could afford it... Bend does sound great, except for the gardening. That would be rough. I can't not garden.
Good luck, it sound like you need to take a serious road trip and check things out. Agreed! We are currently planning it! I don't think there's any one perfect place. It's about finding that place that ticks the most boxes and feels right.
[/i]
So where do you currently live, if you don't mind my asking?
Second the recent comments on Spokane, a rather seedy quality that I can't shake whenever I'm there.
The issue is that the houses around 150k to fit there budget are in the crappier neighborhoods, and to get into those nicer neighborhoods they'll have to pay a bit moreSecond the recent comments on Spokane, a rather seedy quality that I can't shake whenever I'm there.
I grew up in Spokane and have no desire to go back, but all of the Spokahate in this thread is starting to rile my feathers.
Spokane is the second largest city in the state. That title comes with some associated problems, but those are balanced by better access to outdoor recreation opportunities than any other large city in the region.
I think much of the bad rap the city gets is because people judge based on the parts they can see from the freeway, which are all of the worst parts. Check out Manito Park, or the north end neighborhoods, or Brown's Addition, and you'll get a very different picture. They have an outstanding parks system, including one that takes up a huge chunk of downtown, and a whole variety of annual events. And four beautiful seasons, unlike anything west of the mountains.
The politics were a bit of a problem for me, even as a kid, but things have definitely improved in that respect in the past 20 years.
The trails around Seattle and Redmond are so packed that even during weekdays there are hordes of people on them. It really sucks.
OP, based on your criteria, either state would fit you nicely. WA has no income tax, so if you spend very little, you will come out ahead over living in OR.
Lewiston, ID is another great option, Also in Idaho but right on the border. The rivers here are amazing (Snake River and Clearwater River).
Fuzz -- Researched the Methow Valley and O. M. G. is it beautiful. The skiing!!! [long pathetic whimper] ...
Maybe live in Wenatchee and do day trips up to the Methow Valley . . . ? My initial researches seem to show Wenatchee at the 'red' end of the blue-red spectrum, but maybe I'm wrong about that. If it's in the middle that's fine. We can definitely deal with "purple." :) Just don't want pure red.
The trails around Seattle and Redmond are so packed that even during weekdays there are hordes of people on them. It really sucks.
Agreed about the trails here. The trails seem so much busier than 8 years ago. Need to get up early and get parked so you don't have to park 1+ miles from some trailheads.
Another regrettable confirmation that the last decade has made any trail within an hour's drive of Seattle all but unusable on a nice weekend. Used to be the crowds were confined to Mt. Si, then Granite Mountain got the reputation as the place to go to avoid the crowds, and now basically anything West of the summit off I90 you better be parked by 9AM unless you want a mile of road walking as part of your hike.
Another regrettable confirmation that the last decade has made any trail within an hour's drive of Seattle all but unusable on a nice weekend. Used to be the crowds were confined to Mt. Si, then Granite Mountain got the reputation as the place to go to avoid the crowds, and now basically anything West of the summit off I90 you better be parked by 9AM unless you want a mile of road walking as part of your hike.
So don't go to the I-90 corridor. There are deserted places all over the cascades, you may have to drive a FS road quite a ways, or go off trail, but solitude is out there, kind of.
I grew up in Spokane and have no desire to go back, but all of the Spokahate in this thread is starting to rile my feathers.
Spokane is the second largest city in the state. That title comes with some associated problems, but those are balanced by better access to outdoor recreation opportunities than any other large city in the region.
I think much of the bad rap the city gets is because people judge based on the parts they can see from the freeway, which are all of the worst parts.
Do visit! Compared to most of Eastern Washington, Wenatchee is purple. There is a Unitarian Church. More wineries than you can shake a stick at. Brewpubs. A Costco. An orchestra that they're very proud of. Still, I'd suggest slightly outside of Wenatchee because you can get an amazing view for ~$250K (or less). Basically, anything between Plain and Wenatchee.
Also, the West in general doesn't have much of that Southern conservative thing. People might vote for a Republican. But there isn't a lot of prayer in public spaces or winning arguments with bible verses. The County electeds in Chelan County are on the moderate side. Unless you're pretty political, you won't notice. Gay marriage and marijuana for everyone!
@Spokey -- I checked out some of your "wild card" suggestions -- Astoria, OR and points south, and Joseph -- and Oh Man do they look great. Have to drive a good way for skiing, but it looks like they check every other box. I could live with that. They look great and we will definitely visit. Thank you!!
@Spokey -- I checked out some of your "wild card" suggestions -- Astoria, OR and points south, and Joseph -- and Oh Man do they look great. Have to drive a good way for skiing, but it looks like they check every other box. I could live with that. They look great and we will definitely visit. Thank you!!
Yeah, it seems like you're running into have to choose between great gardening and driving to XC skiing. It ends up being a "pick your side of the mountains, drive to the other".
Did you have any specific questions about Oregon towns still? I can answer about any of the cities and towns in the Willamette valley basically, and have spent a lot of time recreating in Central Oregon- not as much time far Eastern or Southern though.
@Spokey -- I checked out some of your "wild card" suggestions -- Astoria, OR and points south, and Joseph -- and Oh Man do they look great. Have to drive a good way for skiing, but it looks like they check every other box. I could live with that. They look great and we will definitely visit. Thank you!!
Yeah, it seems like you're running into have to choose between great gardening and driving to XC skiing. It ends up being a "pick your side of the mountains, drive to the other".
Did you have any specific questions about Oregon towns still? I can answer about any of the cities and towns in the Willamette valley basically, and have spent a lot of time recreating in Central Oregon- not as much time far Eastern or Southern though.
This is where I wonder about places like Sandy and Estacada...still west side moderated temps for gardening (and plenty of precip.), but very close to playing in the Cascades. I just don't know what they are actually like as towns to live in, but I think the location is pretty ideal.
A plug for Vancouver WA. [snip] I've been here 1.5 years and live downtown. The city has urban sprawl but the downtown is wonderful...a beautiful downtown park with a farmers market that goes from March to Oct and is one of the best I've seen. Summer concerts in the park. Wonderful downtown library - my favorite of any town I've lived in. Downtown is walking distance to Fort Vancouver -- a national park. Walking distance to a trail along the Colombia River. I get on the Express bus here and am in downtown Portland in 20 minutes. Vancouver is like a suburb of Portland but has an openness (buildings aren't as tall) and a quieter pace which I enjoy. Lots of small business downtown, many restaurants. An hour and a half from the ocean, near Mt St Helens and Mt Hood, near a major airport (PDX). I think the town has a lot going for it.
DH, 2 kids and I are looking to move in the near future for better quality of life, and we are thinking about the northwest. I've been exhaustively researching places to live in the US based on our wants, and Washington and Oregon keep popping up on top. We have only ever been to Oregon once (Ashland/Medford area -- loved it) and haven't been to Washington in person yet. If possible, can you help point us to a few cities based on our wish list? Then we will visit and check them out in person.My favorite towns in Oregon that fit your description:
Our wish list --
- Nature nearby. We are trail runners and x-country skiers. We love to hike, backpack and canoe.
- Reasonable housing costs. Would like to be able to get a 3BR/1Ba house for $250k or less if possible.
- Interesting/cultured/nice people. Not sure how to phrase this one, but here goes. Over the years due to various jobs we have lived in some rural/extremely religious areas where we felt like aliens. Would like to instead live somewhere more secular, where people are smart, laid back, and nice. Am guessing this will likely take care of itself in WA/OR, but wanted to say it out loud, as it is important to us.
- At least some sun. :) I understand that some places in the northwest are extremely overcast and rainy. How dark is it, really? We do need some sun, so that DH doesn't get down, and our vegetable garden will grow.
- Bikeability. We like to do grocery store runs, etc., by bike.
- Preferably a small town or mid sized city, rather than a big city.
- School districts are not an issue -- we home school. However, proximity to a college or community college would be a bonus as DH (a college teacher) may want to keep working.
So what do you think? Does our ideal place exist? Thanks!!
My favorite towns in Oregon that fit your description:
-Bend/Redmond/Sisters (westside and northern part of Bend are just nice and while not as close to Phil's Trail and Mt. Bachelor, not that far away, Redmond would be a good choice depending on what you want to do). Sisters is really nice with good schools but is expensive like the westside of Bend. With the addition of the OSU Cascades Campus, Bend/Redmond is projected to be the 2nd largest city in the state in 20 years.
-La Grande is a really nice town equidistant between Boise and Portland and not far from Tri-Cities. EOU is in town which gives it some diversity and a college town feel. Great mtn biking and lots of access to the Wallowa Mountains, Anthony Lakes, etc. The biggest problem here is other than farming, I don't know what folks do for a living. Like much of rural Oregon, the town has lost population with the end of major timber/mill work.
-Grants Pass-Just a few minutes from Medford and much more affordable than Ashland, Grants Pass is on the wild an scenic Rogue River. The schools here are the centers of the community and there is a nice downtown area and great access to the Redwoods, the coast, Crater Lake, etc.
-Forest Grove-Butted up against the coast range, FG is in the middle of farmland, wine country and the edge of the "Silicon Forest." Pacific University gives is a nice college feel and the Oregon Coast is very close as is Beaverton and Portland. This has to be the most underrated city on my list but I think it has a lot of offer.
-La Grande-College
-Hood River-Easy access to the Columbia River Gorge, close to Portland and Mt. Hood and in the middle of fantastic orchards, wineries and breweries.