The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: mstache67 on January 09, 2018, 11:43:34 AM
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My husband and I have been married for 7 years. He always made a great income, 100k+ since college and 200k+ for the last dozen years, and 600k+ for the last 5. However until we got engaged and he let me take over the finances he had NOTHING to show for it except 40k student loan from 25 years ago, 12k home equity loan from a house he hadn't owned in over a decade, 10k IRS back taxes, etc.
He's 50. He started at negative net worth when we were married and since then has gotten to 0 debt, no mortgage, and $2.4M net worth. Maxes 401k and HSA every year, and I'm setting up a profit sharing plan for our business to be able to contribute higher pre-tax. I have showed him how thanks to these changes, he can retire comfortably in 2 or 3 years. (He enjoys his work and most of his friends are business contacts, so he wouldn't mind working occasionally after retirement.)
The only monkey wrench in this plan is his family. His parents retired at 65 with no savings except a 200k annuity, and a 200k mortgage. Now 15 years later, the annuity is gone, they have 0 savings or assets, and the house is a couple grand underwater still even though they've been paying the mortgage all this time. (Bought in 2006.)
He's been sending them cash monthly for over 12 years. Until we got married and I insisted, his mother was actually a co-owner on his checking account and would just withdraw money. He has paid all their household bills (verizon cable package, landline phone, cell phone, utilities) for the same amount of time, plus one-off items like a plumbing fix, new ac system, property taxes, always something.
It's a pattern in his family too--his brother "borrowed" 5k from us last year that's yet to be repaid, his sister "borrowed" 2k for a car repair. These are forty-something college educated people who work sporadically (aka when they choose to take a job) and make $250k ish when they're working.
His family came to our house for christmas 2 years ago and his mother insulted our neighborhood that we'd just moved in to and were very happy with ("this is ugly"), and me ("You dont know how to make a bed properly, what good are you other than to clean HIS house?")
I sat on the front stoop of my own home, crying. When I came back inside, his mother was in a bedroom with the door shut, gossiping on the phone about me.
I told him he had to stop supporting them immediately or I'd divorce him. But here we are, 2 years later, and nothing has changed. He applied for elderly housing for them, and I think his mother throws the correspondence away and doesn't answer their phone calls, because she "hasn't heard anything."
Also for background these are people who spend maybe 300 a month on cigarettes, buy lottery tickets regularly, etc.
I would like to adopt a child, but it makes me anxious to do so when we're supporting 2 households. His mother's response when my husband said we were thinking of adopting? "You're too old." I even offered to have his parents move in to our home (after the nightmare christmas) and his mom said "no, can't have 2 women sharing a house." I offered even though his dad smoked inside after we asked him not to, and threw cigarette butts all over our patio.
WTF to do?
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I am so sorry you're in this situation.
Unfortunately, it seems like you knew he was like this going in, and still married him? In that case, you should have adjusted your expectations going in, or run away since he was unlikely to change at that point.
As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
And you do need to decide if the relationship itself is enough - without expecting him to change in any way - for you to stay.
You've used the threat of divorce to try to goad him to change and he hasn't so you technically have your answer: stay and put up with the situation as it stands with a husband completely enmeshed with his parents/siblings and putting his wife and own life second, or leave him and go do the things you want to do like adopt a child.
I'd suggest getting some counseling to help you work through this. If you can get him to go with, that would be great to see if he is open to changing to save his marriage, but honestly I think this would be a deal breaker for me, and I would just need the counseling to work through how to leave and getting my head straight for the divorce.
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This is a tough one.
How is your relationship otherwise? How often have you spoken about this in the last couple of years? Did he take your response to that awful Christmas seriously? Did you follow up on it or just say it the once? How has your relationship dealt with other issues when you have different opinions or conflicting values?
How are your finances? Do you work? Do you combine all your finances? Do you have any of your own accounts or savings?
How much are your household expenses and how much are the in-law household expenses? Is the money causing you hardship or is the issue that you are giving favours and spending time with awful, rude, ungrateful people?
I sympathise, this is a shitty situation that you are in. If you want to commiserate you can check out my tale of in-law woe here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned/).
This seems like a relationship problem rather than a money problem. I prescribe some work on boundaries with the in-laws and serious conversations with the husband and a therapist. Captain Awkward (https://captainawkward.com/) is my go-to resource for useful scripts for setting boundaries with people who are awful to you.
Best of luck.
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I am so sorry you're in this situation.
Unfortunately, it seems like you knew he was like this going in, and still married him? In that case, you should have adjusted your expectations going in, or run away since he was unlikely to change at that point.
As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
And you do need to decide if the relationship itself is enough - without expecting him to change in any way - for you to stay.
You've used the threat of divorce to try to goad him to change and he hasn't so you technically have your answer: stay and put up with the situation as it stands with a husband completely enmeshed with his parents/siblings and putting his wife and own life second, or leave him and go do the things you want to do like adopt a child.
I'd suggest getting some counseling to help you work through this. If you can get him to go with, that would be great to see if he is open to changing to save his marriage, but honestly I think this would be a deal breaker for me, and I would just need the counseling to work through how to leave and getting my head straight for the divorce.
Thank you for the thoughtful answer. I knew when we got married that he occasionally "helped out," which to me means picking up a big grocery bill and having it delivered because they're older, or adding them to the phone bill, or things like that. Not paying the mortgage indefinitely and sending a fixed amount of cash every month that is "required."
He has said he recognizes he needs to stop and agrees with me, and he has told his mother that it has to stop, but he says he has to wait until they get into some sort of subsidized housing program or they'll be foreclosed on eventually.
He was told last year they'd be in a program by now.
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I am so sorry you're in this situation.
Unfortunately, it seems like you knew he was like this going in, and still married him? In that case, you should have adjusted your expectations going in, or run away since he was unlikely to change at that point.
As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
And you do need to decide if the relationship itself is enough - without expecting him to change in any way - for you to stay.
You've used the threat of divorce to try to goad him to change and he hasn't so you technically have your answer: stay and put up with the situation as it stands with a husband completely enmeshed with his parents/siblings and putting his wife and own life second, or leave him and go do the things you want to do like adopt a child.
I'd suggest getting some counseling to help you work through this. If you can get him to go with, that would be great to see if he is open to changing to save his marriage, but honestly I think this would be a deal breaker for me, and I would just need the counseling to work through how to leave and getting my head straight for the divorce.
Thank you for the thoughtful answer. I knew when we got married that he occasionally "helped out," which to me means picking up a big grocery bill and having it delivered because they're older, or adding them to the phone bill, or things like that. Not paying the mortgage indefinitely and sending a fixed amount of cash every month that is "required."
He has said he recognizes he needs to stop and agrees with me, and he has told his mother that it has to stop, but he says he has to wait until they get into some sort of subsidized housing program or they'll be foreclosed on eventually.
He was told last year they'd be in a program by now.
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Ah, that sucks too. He wants to change things, but he has no idea how because he's so enmeshed he feels trapped and it's a never-ending parent/child situation that he has to break out of.
I'd still strongly recommend counseling (and it may take you both a few tries to find a good "fit" with a decent counselor), but for reading if he is open to the idea: Susan Forward's "Toxic Inlaws" and "Toxic Parents" along with her book, "Emotional Blackmail" might help him start finding the words to stand up to his parents/siblings and break the bad relationship dynamics that are currently in place.
It really is about him taking a large step back, telling his parents they are on their own and understanding that he is not in any way responsible or beholden to them just because they are his parents. He can still love and care about them, but he needs to separate the love from being conditional or trained to obey as a child would. He is an adult and it is okay to tell them no, and they can accept it and keep the relationship, or throw fits trying to manipulate him and alienate him in the process. But ultimately he should not feel his relationship with his family is dependent on how much he does for them - that is wrong. Oh, and he absolutely should be telling them to knock off any slurs or nasty behavior towards his spouse (you). You are supposed to come first in his life and he should be defending you and telling them off if they treat you poorly.
It is so easy to say, but in a sick family dynamic, very difficult to internalize.*
Good luck and I do hope you're able to find your way forward together.
*I have lived through both a terrible family situation with very screwed up manipulative parents/siblings, and have also dealt with a passive spouse and screwy inlaws too. Counseling, figuring out boundaries and enforcing them, cut offs and all that jazz...
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This is a tough one.
How is your relationship otherwise? How often have you spoken about this in the last couple of years? Did he take your response to that awful Christmas seriously? Did you follow up on it or just say it the once? How has your relationship dealt with other issues when you have different opinions or conflicting values?
How are your finances? Do you work? Do you combine all your finances? Do you have any of your own accounts or savings?
How much are your household expenses and how much are the in-law household expenses? Is the money causing you hardship or is the issue that you are giving favours and spending time with awful, rude, ungrateful people?
I sympathise, this is a shitty situation that you are in. If you want to commiserate you can check out my tale of in-law woe here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned/).
This seems like a relationship problem rather than a money problem. I prescribe some work on boundaries with the in-laws and serious conversations with the husband and a therapist. Captain Awkward (https://captainawkward.com/) is my go-to resource for useful scripts for setting boundaries with people who are awful to you.
Best of luck.
Thank you. The link to your story didn't work on my phone, I will try it on the computer when I get home.
Otherwise, the relationship is great. He's my best friend, and I really don't want to get a divorce.
I always had my own income, but I started helping him with his business before we got married and was able to grow that a lot, and this works out well for us. We are 50/50 financially and all accounts except retirement are combined.
I handle everything to do with finances because I have more of an interest in it. He just sort of gradually passed everything off. If I want to make a change, I present all facts and info I can find, then we talk about it.
We spend roughly the same on our own personal household bills as we do on his parents' household bills.
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Are you, or your husband, by any chance Indian? This sounds so familiar...
Anyway, you truly have my sympathies. What an awful situation to be in. I think step 1 is having a serious talk with your husband. Some of this may be cultural, HOWEVER your husband really should be standing up for you and telling his mother to cut out the catty comments.
Serious talk needs to happen with the siblings as well. Are they otherwise OK aside from the random leeching? It may be a family pattern and a talking to may get them to stop, or maybe if you bring up needing to save for adoption, etc.
Maybe your husband is comfortable with an ultimatum for the parents? Either they stay where they are BUT things need to change for your husband to continue to give them money, or they move into a retirement home.
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Dear sweet heaven, do not let these people move in with you! It's like your MIL is so petty that's she's come full circle and is doing you a favor.
You sound like an awesome person.
The adoption issue really stands out to me. How important is this for you? Right now, you are not in a place to have a child with your husband. He really needs to show some progress before you bring a child into this situation. How long are you willing to wait?
From a strictly factual standpoint, you have all the financial resources you'll ever need to have a good life. Time and emotion are your most precious commodities right now. By and large though, the world is your oyster, so don't ever let yourself feel trapped.
Captain Awkward is fabulous. Definitely skim through her archives and read the stuff that resonates with you.
I will also suggest Reddit's Just No MIL subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/) These women (and some men) do an amazing job validating and supporting each other.
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I don't see how your relationship with your husband can be great if he let's his mother abuse you. Those 2 things don't go together.
I really doubt he's ever going to stop giving his parents money. I think you need to change the conversation to what your limit is if you want to stay in this relationship.
Either way, I think therapy (by yourself ) is most important.
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As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
All of Frankies Girl's advice is spot on, but the above summarizes it quite nicely.
Your spouse isn't doing his job. My mother was an ass to my fiancé. An absolute, unmitigated, beyond-the-pale horses' ass.
I made my position very clear. Treat my fiancé in a civil, polite manner or you don't have a son any more.
The money situation is a pain in the ass, but they aren't eating much given your income. You could set an amount you're willing to give them and, given your income, cover the whole amount in less than a year. It's a pain in the rear, and would annoy me to no end to sacrifice to help such hateful, ungrateful people, but I could swallow that if my spouses family were in need.
But the boundary lines need to be set. If your spouse won't set them, then you should.
It wouldn't be surprising if anything less than packing their bags, calling a cab and sending them to a hotel will suffice.
And, for the record, I've had to be pretty damn blunt. For an example, my parents were visiting us over the Christmas season and we had bought him a very nice scroll saw. He unwrapped it, saw what it was, and then went on to extol the glories of the scroll saw he had bought for himself a month earlier. I waited until the store was open and we took the saw back to the store. I returned it in front of him. And didn't buy him a replacement gift. Didn't have that kind of problem again.
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Are you, or your husband, by any chance Indian? This sounds so familiar...
Anyway, you truly have my sympathies. What an awful situation to be in. I think step 1 is having a serious talk with your husband. Some of this may be cultural, HOWEVER your husband really should be standing up for you and telling his mother to cut out the catty comments.
Serious talk needs to happen with the siblings as well. Are they otherwise OK aside from the random leeching? It may be a family pattern and a talking to may get them to stop, or maybe if you bring up needing to save for adoption, etc.
Maybe your husband is comfortable with an ultimatum for the parents? Either they stay where they are BUT things need to change for your husband to continue to give them money, or they move into a retirement home.
Lbmustache, no not Indian.
My biggest issue w the siblings is not even their own occasional mooching, it's that my husband is expected to be both financial support and time/general support for the parents. The two siblings live in Los Angeles, we live in Florida, the parents live in Buffalo NY.
My husband flies a lot on business and often has 10 hour travel days, but guess who's expected to get on a plane when the parents need help w something in person? I've asked him before since we provide financial help, why can't one of the other two get on a plane (if they don't want to buy a ticket we'd be happy to get one on points like we do when he goes). He says they "don't have time."
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Dear sweet heaven, do not let these people move in with you! It's like your MIL is so petty that's she's come full circle and is doing you a favor.
You sound like an awesome person.
The adoption issue really stands out to me. How important is this for you? Right now, you are not in a place to have a child with your husband. He really needs to show some progress before you bring a child into this situation. How long are you willing to wait?
From a strictly factual standpoint, you have all the financial resources you'll ever need to have a good life. Time and emotion are your most precious commodities right now. By and large though, the world is your oyster, so don't ever let yourself feel trapped.
Captain Awkward is fabulous. Definitely skim through her archives and read the stuff that resonates with you.
I will also suggest Reddit's Just No MIL subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/) These women (and some men) do an amazing job validating and supporting each other.
Yeah that's the really strange part. We live in a nice house on the water in Florida with tons of community activities within walking distance and gorgeous beach at the end of the block.
My husband's dad loved it and sat on our dock for hours fishing but MIL kept saying, "We hate it here."
They are homebound except for taxis, basically watch TV all day. The only relatives (cousins) left in their area live about an hour away from them and don't visit often.
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/https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/3davsm/tip_setting_boundaries/
GOOD LUCK!
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Good Lord, you make so much money, you could easily pay them to just stay away from you! Money well spent. That's sort of a joke, but seriously. You could give them more every year than most people make and not be hurting at all. And if the sibling also make a lot when they are working, let them help out, too. Mind telling us what business he is in?
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Dezrah, the MIL reddit is priceless. Priceless!
OP, sorry you are having to deal with this. Obviously the whole thing is totally dysfunctional and MIL sounds like a real pill . . . no wonder FIL wants to get away down to the dock and fish all day?
Oh, dear baby Jesus, when my own children grow up & meet partners, let me always treat them and their partners the way I would prefer to be treated. Amen.
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You said “our business” so I’m assuming you receive a salary. If not, get yourself on the payroll ASAP. Separate your finances 50/50. Stop managing his personal money. You have no mortgage, no debt, and while you didn’t mention your own retirement savings I’m also going to assume you have that as well. His salary pays for his part of your shared expenses and whatever else he wants to spend it on. Yours does the same. Don’t even look at what he gives away and refuse to discuss it.
Also, therapy. Not for money problems, but for elation ship and communication problems.
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I wonder if you could get your husband on board with setting a firm budget.
At your income, giving them some amount of money monthly is not a huge burden. Seems like as long as he sticks to it, you can easily afford it.
I don't know why you would want them to live with you.that sounds horrid.
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Immediate counseling. Your husband cares more about keeping his leech parents from experiencing consequences for their irresponsible and rude behavior than he does about his wife crying on the porch and talking about divorcing him.
Then again, you made a threat (divorce) that you aren't willing to follow through with, so now your bargaining power is severely diminished. You guys both need to work on confidence, communication, and setting boundaries. Your whole post sounds somewhat scattered, as does he. You're both trying to just power through things the easiest most convenient way possible at that exact moment without thinking about long term consequences. You offered to let someone who insulted you and made you cry MOVE IN with you because you were so concerned with some specific issue at the moment. He keeps giving his parents a huge disincentive to finding their own housing by paying all their bills because he doesn't want them to guilt trip him when he cuts off the flow of $$$.
People who are scattered and make emotional short term decisions are like candy to manipulators (and guess what kids are? Manipulators). Both of you fall into that right now. Seek therapy immediately so a 3rd party can make you both talk through your decisions and their consequences. You both have to be able to set boundaries and actually stick to them, but make sure you CAN stick to them (ie. not divorce if you aren't really going to do it). These are crucial skills for parenting as well. Right now if you had a kid I imagine it would end up an extremely spoiled brat, because that's what your in laws are and you both keep caving to their every whim. They are supposed to find housing, they don't, and his response is sending them more money every month. They are complete assholes to you telling you that you're awful and they smoke in your house, and your response is to offer to have them move in with you. If you raise a kid with that same attitude it will be a disaster.
You both need to grow up and grow a pair. You have literally all of the power in this situation, and are being controlled by the broke people you're giving a shitload of charity to as if they're your boss.
I have a pretty firm rule that any time I help someone with money, they better be working harder than I am, or at the very very least doing everything they can. "Help those who help themselves" and all that. Someone who didn't even bother trying to find housing asking me for money would get laughed at and the door slammed on. Now if they were really on top of everything and needed help navigating the system, sure I'd help, I'd also probably help them out with some $ if that were the case. I helped a friend do her taxes last year, and we've sent her some occasional $ to help out. She works her ass off so I'm okay with it.
As is they are insulting you and basically flaunting that they don't have to do shit and you'll keep giving them money. The flow of money and help should be completely cut off until they start trying to help themselves. Once they do that you can SUPPLEMENT their own efforts, at most. Based on what you've posted here that won't be for a long time. Maybe they do get foreclosed on. If they do that's THEIR fault, not yours. They need to experience some negative consequences, insisting that you stop anything bad from happening to them puts them in the driver's seat.
edit: And all the same goes for the siblings. Anyone who makes/can make 6 figures is 100% off of my "I need financial help" list for life.
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Immediate counseling. Your husband cares more about keeping his leech parents from experiencing consequences for their irresponsible and rude behavior than he does about his wife crying on the porch and talking about divorcing him.
Then again, you made a threat (divorce) that you aren't willing to follow through with, so now your bargaining power is severely diminished. You guys both need to work on confidence, communication, and setting boundaries. Your whole post sounds somewhat scattered, as does he. You're both trying to just power through things the easiest most convenient way possible at that exact moment without thinking about long term consequences. You offered to let someone who insulted you and made you cry MOVE IN with you because you were so concerned with some specific issue at the moment. He keeps giving his parents a huge disincentive to finding their own housing by paying all their bills because he doesn't want them to guilt trip him when he cuts off the flow of $$$.
People who are scattered and make emotional short term decisions are like candy to manipulators (and guess what kids are? Manipulators). Both of you fall into that right now. Seek therapy immediately so a 3rd party can make you both talk through your decisions and their consequences. You both have to be able to set boundaries and actually stick to them, but make sure you CAN stick to them (ie. not divorce if you aren't really going to do it). These are crucial skills for parenting as well. Right now if you had a kid I imagine it would end up an extremely spoiled brat, because that's what your in laws are and you both keep caving to their every whim. They are supposed to find housing, they don't, and his response is sending them more money every month. They are complete assholes to you telling you that you're awful and they smoke in your house, and your response is to offer to have them move in with you. If you raise a kid with that same attitude it will be a disaster.
You both need to grow up and grow a pair. You have literally all of the power in this situation, and are being controlled by the broke people you're giving a shitload of charity to as if they're your boss.
I have a pretty firm rule that any time I help someone with money, they better be working harder than I am, or at the very very least doing everything they can. "Help those who help themselves" and all that. Someone who didn't even bother trying to find housing asking me for money would get laughed at and the door slammed on. Now if they were really on top of everything and needed help navigating the system, sure I'd help, I'd also probably help them out with some $ if that were the case. I helped a friend do her taxes last year, and we've sent her some occasional $ to help out. She works her ass off so I'm okay with it.
As is they are insulting you and basically flaunting that they don't have to do shit and you'll keep giving them money. The flow of money and help should be completely cut off until they start trying to help themselves. Once they do that you can SUPPLEMENT their own efforts, at most. Based on what you've posted here that won't be for a long time. Maybe they do get foreclosed on. If they do that's THEIR fault, not yours. They need to experience some negative consequences, insisting that you stop anything bad from happening to them puts them in the driver's seat.
edit: And all the same goes for the siblings. Anyone who makes/can make 6 figures is 100% off of my "I need financial help" list for life.
When he has brought up them finding more affordable housing his mother starts crying on the phone and says something along the lines of "What do you want me to do? Find a job? I'm 80." I follow what you're saying "help those who help themselves" with everyone else in my life, but what would that look like in this situation? I have suggested to him asking them to rent out the spare bedroom to a responsible college student which could probably bring them $700 a month to put toward bills until they get into elderly housing. Or pet sitting from their home (MIL loves dogs).
With his siblings, when brother-in-law asked for money, husband says "He needs it for rent. If I don't give it to him, he'll never speak to me again." Same with his sister. He also says if he stops sending his parents money, his siblings won't speak to him. Last I heard his brother is paying all his sister's bills but he can't pay us back because then he won't be able to pay her rent. This is a woman who consistently made over $200k a year and spent it on dry cleaning her dog's sweaters, etc.
The siblings are closer with each other than with him, and he doesn't see how sad it is that every time we see the siblings they suggest going to one of the top restaurants in town because they know he'll pick up the tab. If he's in their city alone on business, they do not see him except suggesting one of these restaurants at $500 a pop or so. My own sister does the same thing, but I just suggest making dinner and eating on the deck instead which is what I honestly prefer no matter who pays.
We wouldn't be manipulated by a kid and I'm not manipulated by anyone else. My own mother has intoned that husband treats his parents "beautifully" and she "deserves the same." I said no.
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My suggestions: (after dealing with my own family dysfunction).
1. go to couples counseling. Your husband needs to have your back in all this. This is the most important piece. Your MIL sees she has her son's allegiance
(unleash the guilt trips, etc) and feels she doesn't need to be nice to you at all. She loves to split you too apart I bet.
You and your husband need to bond together and make your relationship your toppest of toppest priority in your life.
2. Take the offer for them to move in with you OFF THE TABLE ... NOW!
Sounds like your MIL likes to walk all over you. Your home is YOUR castle and sanctuary.
3. Work out a budget where you pay yourself first (cover retirement savings, etc) and settle on a fixed amount per month that you are willing to offer to them for support.
Make it very clear, a fixed number that is reasonable. They need to grow up and handle their own spending. Don't let them drag you down financially.
I think this is fair. They do have other sons and daughters don't they??
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You said “our business” so I’m assuming you receive a salary. If not, get yourself on the payroll ASAP. Separate your finances 50/50. Stop managing his personal money. You have no mortgage, no debt, and while you didn’t mention your own retirement savings I’m also going to assume you have that as well. His salary pays for his part of your shared expenses and whatever else he wants to spend it on. Yours does the same. Don’t even look at what he gives away and refuse to discuss it.
Also, therapy. Not for money problems, but for elation ship and communication problems.
I receive a salary, and he receives a salary both from our business, and they go into joint bank account. We have separate retirement accounts. Our finances have been combined since we got married. How does it help in this situation to separate them?
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When he has brought up them finding more affordable housing his mother starts crying on the phone and says something along the lines of "What do you want me to do? Find a job? I'm 80." I follow what you're saying "help those who help themselves" with everyone else in my life, but what would that look like in this situation? I have suggested to him asking them to rent out the spare bedroom to a responsible college student which could probably bring them $700 a month to put toward bills until they get into elderly housing. Or pet sitting from their home (MIL loves dogs).
From your first post:He applied for elderly housing for them, and I think his mother throws the correspondence away and doesn't answer their phone calls, because she "hasn't heard anything."
How about taking responsibility for finding elderly housing? How about a part time job? How about not being complete assholes to you when they come visit?
Also for background these are people who spend maybe 300 a month on cigarettes, buy lottery tickets regularly, etc.
Maybe not buying lottery tickets? Cooking at home? Trying to compromise even a little bit about anything?
With his siblings, when brother-in-law asked for money, husband says "He needs it for rent. If I don't give it to him, he'll never speak to me again." Same with his sister. He also says if he stops sending his parents money, his siblings won't speak to him. Last I heard his brother is paying all his sister's bills but he can't pay us back because then he won't be able to pay her rent. This is a woman who consistently made over $200k a year and spent it on dry cleaning her dog's sweaters, etc.
The siblings are closer with each other than with him, and he doesn't see how sad it is that every time we see the siblings they suggest going to one of the top restaurants in town because they know he'll pick up the tab. If he's in their city alone on business, they do not see him except suggesting one of these restaurants at $500 a pop or so. My own sister does the same thing, but I just suggest making dinner and eating on the deck instead which is what I honestly prefer no matter who pays.
I'm not sure why he cares if they ever talk to him again. He's like those people who stay in abusive relationships because the other person threatens to kill themselves, only in this case it's just that they threaten to never talk to him again. I know he sees it as "well I'm not going to never talk to them again to save $XXXX/month, our relationship is worth more than that." What he hasn't realized is THEY are the ones giving him the ultimatum, they put the value of talking to him at $XXXX.
If he cares that much about talking to someone who only talks to him for payment, then you're trapped paying them. I'd be furious if anyone I knew pulled that shit on me, and even more so with the salary history they apparently have.
We wouldn't be manipulated by a kid and I'm not manipulated by anyone else. My own mother has intoned that husband treats his parents "beautifully" and she "deserves the same." I said no.
You're both currently being manipulated by 3 people into giving them shitloads of money while they buy lottery tickets and work when they feel like it. Parenthood is a team effort. Even if you aren't manipulated (which I think you most definitely are), your husband definitely is, and with kids you can't only have one parent enforcing boundaries.
My post wasn't meant to be mean, but it was meant to be harsh and tell you how I see it. You're both paying thousands of dollars a month to people who threaten not to talk to you if you stop, make you cry at your own holiday dinner, and smoke in your home when you ask them not to. Then you invite them to move in. You should be PISSED THE FUCK OFF.
Bad shit will happen to them (the parents and siblings), because they are making bad decisions. They need some bad shit to happen to them. Brother needs to get evicted and be forced to actually work. Parents need to run out of money and be a bit hungry once in awhile and get foreclosed on if they're blowing money on lottery tickets and not caring about finding housing.
If you're not willing to let bad shit happen to them, they will control you forever because you apparently care more about them being safe and warm and well fed than they do.
If you absolutely can't stand the thought of any of them being evicted, pay them exactly their mortgage/rent payment every month and let them figure out the rest. I'd be furious with all of them and would cut off the money hose immediately though.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
All of Frankies Girl's advice is spot on, but the above summarizes it quite nicely.
Your spouse isn't doing his job. My mother was an ass to my fiancé. An absolute, unmitigated, beyond-the-pale horses' ass.
I made my position very clear. Treat my fiancé in a civil, polite manner or you don't have a son any more.
The money situation is a pain in the ass, but they aren't eating much given your income. You could set an amount you're willing to give them and, given your income, cover the whole amount in less than a year. It's a pain in the rear, and would annoy me to no end to sacrifice to help such hateful, ungrateful people, but I could swallow that if my spouses family were in need.
But the boundary lines need to be set. If your spouse won't set them, then you should.
It wouldn't be surprising if anything less than packing their bags, calling a cab and sending them to a hotel will suffice.
And, for the record, I've had to be pretty damn blunt. For an example, my parents were visiting us over the Christmas season and we had bought him a very nice scroll saw. He unwrapped it, saw what it was, and then went on to extol the glories of the scroll saw he had bought for himself a month earlier. I waited until the store was open and we took the saw back to the store. I returned it in front of him. And didn't buy him a replacement gift. Didn't have that kind of problem again.
This is awesome. 100% agree with this.
Spouses come first (and second) kids come third, families should be a distant forth. I would start there. He has got to be 100% on your team and with you. I think you need to start small with him, and he inturn needs to start small with them. There needs to be very clear expectations and boundaries.
An example would be like:
"Here is $3,000 to in moving money, it is all I can/will give you, you need to find a place, rent a truck etc etc but that is the extent of help I can give you" Then you just have to be done with their living situation, if they get foreclosed on that is on them. Sounds like he has been enabling them for so long they are unlikely to change.
Honestly this feels like a binary outcome either things stay the same or he cuts his family out completely. I feel like you also have a binary outcome, stay... or go. I guess you have to at least try?
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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I'd tell them to pound sand and donate the money to someone who actually needs it instead. But then again I don't tolerate wastefulness, complete disrespect, and entitlement very well when someone asks me for money (or in general). If they need money for food, I'd tell them I donated to the local food bank so it should be well stocked.
At the very least if I was sending them $30k/year I'd expect them to behave like perfect model citizens when they talk to me and come visit.
To me the big issue isn't with the money. It's a relationship and boundaries issue with you and your spouse, and I hope you seek therapy to help with it.
Also, his brother and sister presumably will live far longer than 15 years. The parents dying won't solve your problems.
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As he is still doing this despite the fact that his parents are rude to you (his wife), you don't actually have an inlaw problem... you have a spouse problem.
All of Frankies Girl's advice is spot on, but the above summarizes it quite nicely.
Your spouse isn't doing his job. My mother was an ass to my fiancé. An absolute, unmitigated, beyond-the-pale horses' ass.
I made my position very clear. Treat my fiancé in a civil, polite manner or you don't have a son any more.
The money situation is a pain in the ass, but they aren't eating much given your income. You could set an amount you're willing to give them and, given your income, cover the whole amount in less than a year. It's a pain in the rear, and would annoy me to no end to sacrifice to help such hateful, ungrateful people, but I could swallow that if my spouses family were in need.
But the boundary lines need to be set. If your spouse won't set them, then you should.
It wouldn't be surprising if anything less than packing their bags, calling a cab and sending them to a hotel will suffice.
And, for the record, I've had to be pretty damn blunt. For an example, my parents were visiting us over the Christmas season and we had bought him a very nice scroll saw. He unwrapped it, saw what it was, and then went on to extol the glories of the scroll saw he had bought for himself a month earlier. I waited until the store was open and we took the saw back to the store. I returned it in front of him. And didn't buy him a replacement gift. Didn't have that kind of problem again.
This is awesome. 100% agree with this.
Spouses come first (and second) kids come third, families should be a distant forth. I would start there. He has got to be 100% on your team and with you. I think you need to start small with him, and he inturn needs to start small with them. There needs to be very clear expectations and boundaries.
An example would be like:
"Here is $3,000 to in moving money, it is all I can/will give you, you need to find a place, rent a truck etc etc but that is the extent of help I can give you" Then you just have to be done with their living situation, if they get foreclosed on that is on them. Sounds like he has been enabling them for so long they are unlikely to change.
Honestly this feels like a binary outcome either things stay the same or he cuts his family out completely. I feel like you also have a binary outcome, stay... or go. I guess you have to at least try?
Yes. When I met him was making 400k, 500k and literally had to keep a very careful Excel budget because he only had like 2k left to his name after crazy expenses. He lived very close to his parents when we met, then we moved to Florida because we could live anywhere and run the business. When he lived close by them (next street), he spent like crazy on them. Bought his dad a car that he totaled. When we were dating I asked why he couldn't just cash flow paying off the 25 year old student loan or the 10 year old equity line, and he said "I can't afford it, I have to support my parents."
I checked our credit reports after the Equifax breach and for the first time found out that he actually cosigned a personal loan for like $800 with the parents' credit union back in the early 2000s. He was making at least 300k at the time, and he doesn't see how taking out a $800 loan is ridiculous at that income, let alone for someone else.
As I'm writing this I'm realizing maybe husband is beyond hope. :(
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Why would be acceptable to give someone $30K a year who doesn't do anything to help themselves (like applying for lower cost housing) and treats you like crap? Do you think that is acceptable?
You husband isn't supporting his parents, he is paying for them to live well beyond their means.
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I think everyone here has provided really sound advice.
I think counseling at minimum for yourself no matter what else you do would make a big difference. Like many have said you can only control what you can control. Working with a therapist they can help you set boundaries so you are taking care of yourself first. Anything beyond that is a choice you are making. I have been in therapy a long time. Learning boundaries especially dealing with my parents was huge. My dad can be very mean. If he gets that way on the phone with me I give him a warning that I do not want to continue with the specific dialogue. If he continues, I hang up. Although I am choosing to make changes to my life, it has an impact on theirs as well. Over time I have noticed small changes in their behavior because of me holding my ground.
It sounds like you are willing to compromise and you really just want respect and even gratitude for your help. You mentioned you think the MIL is sabotaging the housing issue. They should be in the housing by now. An ultimatum that you may consider would be - we help with housing expenses for 1 year since that is how long the process is expected to take. There you are giving them a warning and some time to get there. Then in a year if it has not happened you can follow through with the dropping the assistance. As someone else suggested limit the assistance to just the mortgage and necessary utilities. If they cannot budget the rest of their money then they get stuck eating ramen noodles.
Sometimes it takes hitting a rock bottom before someone will learn from their mistakes. My brother got 3 DUIs in less than a year. My parents hated watching him go through it and the other impacts like work and finances as well. He is now on the upside of the situation. It happened in his early 20s he turned 30 yesterday. He now has a good paying job, owns his house (mortgage), GF, pets, and has turned himself around. I am really proud of his progress. He still has room to grow.
As others have said this is really not a financial problem, but a relationship/emotional problem. You know what it is now is your opportunity to making changes. I wish you luck.
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I think everyone here has provided really sound advice.
I think counseling at minimum for yourself no matter what else you do would make a big difference. Like many have said you can only control what you can control. Working with a therapist they can help you set boundaries so you are taking care of yourself first. Anything beyond that is a choice you are making. I have been in therapy a long time. Learning boundaries especially dealing with my parents was huge. My dad can be very mean. If he gets that way on the phone with me I give him a warning that I do not want to continue with the specific dialogue. If he continues, I hang up. Although I am choosing to make changes to my life, it has an impact on theirs as well. Over time I have noticed small changes in their behavior because of me holding my ground.
It sounds like you are willing to compromise and you really just want respect and even gratitude for your help. You mentioned you think the MIL is sabotaging the housing issue. They should be in the housing by now. An ultimatum that you may consider would be - we help with housing expenses for 1 year since that is how long the process is expected to take. There you are giving them a warning and some time to get there. Then in a year if it has not happened you can follow through with the dropping the assistance. As someone else suggested limit the assistance to just the mortgage and necessary utilities. If they cannot budget the rest of their money then they get stuck eating ramen noodles.
Sometimes it takes hitting a rock bottom before someone will learn from their mistakes. My brother got 3 DUIs in less than a year. My parents hated watching him go through it and the other impacts like work and finances as well. He is now on the upside of the situation. It happened in his early 20s he turned 30 yesterday. He now has a good paying job, owns his house (mortgage), GF, pets, and has turned himself around. I am really proud of his progress. He still has room to grow.
As others have said this is really not a financial problem, but a relationship/emotional problem. You know what it is now is your opportunity to making changes. I wish you luck.
+1, but ANY ultimatums MUST come from your husband, not you (probably after counseling...).
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1. As far as the In Laws moving in with your NO WAY! There is no way you could live with that abuse day in and day out.
2. Maybe consider buying a home with a separate cottage to house the In Laws. Have them sell their house and put some towards this new arrangement.
3. OR, pay off their house and then do a home equity conversion mortgage so they have a source of income. If possible, sit them down and tell them this money is all they money they will have and no more money will come from their son. Maybe you could suggest a budget but they sound like maniacs with money. See a lawyer that is an expert in elder law and tell them the situation. Maybe they will be able to determine that they are incompetent to manage their own money and a judge may allow you to pay their bills etc. from the equity money.
4. Find senior housing and bring them to it. Tell them the gravy train is ending and they have to cut their expenses. Offer to pay utility bills and a stipend for food.
5. If you can find out what their actual monthly bills are and can afford to keep paying, only pay those bills. Don't give them cash to spend willy nilly for cigs and lottos.
You have got to put a plan together. I would say first see an elder lawyer and get your ducks in order. These people are out of control and you and the son should not be held hostage.
As for the other relatives, write them a letter now, keep a copy, tell them you are no longer their piggy bank and no longer will bail them out. They are grown ups and not children. Let them figure it out like the rest of America does. Maybe even tell them the 'loans' are forgiven but there will be no more ever. You know you will never get the money back so might as well use it as a guilt trip in your letter.
Your hub needs to put his big boy pants on and practice the word NO, NO, NO! He is a nice guy who is getting used. If not for you, sounds like he would be broke.
Write out 3 scenarios for the parents. (1) Equity line of credit for them, (2) moving them to a lower income senior place, (3) buy a new property for you and the hub with a separate cottage on it. I think number 2 is the best situation. You need to be firm and tell them they have to move and if they don't they are not getting more income. If they have a fit too bad.
I hope you don't think I am too harsh but just the thought of these people expecting your Hub to be their personal bank really irks me! Please keep us updated on your situation. Good luck!
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But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do
I was right there with everybody saying this is crap. I'm of the belief that parents are obligated to support children who truly can't support themselves (this coming from someone with a disabled sister who's father does less than he could/should), but children have no such obligation. To me it's all about choice. You choose to have children and take the risk they'll always need to be supported, you don't choose to be born to messed up parents who can't support themselves.
BUT, when I read the above something clicked for me that makes me think maybe all this isn't so bad in your specific case. Even if you said you were going to supply enough to pay the $30k of your in-law's expenses indefinitely, using a 4% withdrawal rate (IMO high for an early retiree, but reasonable for older people), that requires $750k. Back of the napkin math (well, taxact tax calculator) says you probably pay around $200k in taxes between income and self employment taxes, so with $30k of your own expenses, and $30k in parental support you should be saving $340k/year, so we're talking a little over 2 years for you to save that up. That's certainly a significant amount of time, but people work a whole lot longer for a whole lot less than being able to fully support their parents. So if (and it's a big if) your husband thinks that's a worthwhile tradeoff I think it could be ok for you to support his goal. Then again, if you put it in terms of total dollars and years of life, maybe he'll decide it's not worth it and stop or cut back.
That said, how your mother in law is treating you is not acceptable and your husband needs to stand up for you here. If he doesn't know all the crap she says to you, you need to tell him instead of crying by yourself on the porch, and if he does know then he needs to man up and stand up to mommy and make it clear it's not acceptable.
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It is abuse your living with I hope you understand that. If anyone talked to my wife like that there ass would be out on the street and no money in the world should make you settle less for being treated right. My advice it start buy putting in a hard-line with your husband and holding him to it. And for sure getting counseling because as much as it bothers me the way he is , it bothers me that your allowing it. I mean no disrespect by that but more out of you long term mental health.
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OP, I'm a fly on the wall over on the JustNoMIL reddit page and very grateful I'm not a poster. This situation is not without hope, and neither is your marriage.
Your husband needs counseling, because he's enmeshed with his parents. Likely mostly his mother. And he's complicit in abusing you by allowing his mother to abuse you.
You need counseling, because you're being abused by your MIL and by extension, your husband (spouses are supposed to protect you from their family, if they don't, that's abuse).
You need couples counseling to repair your relationship which has been damaged by your MIL's abuse and the failure of your husband to put a stop to it.
You and your husband need to jointly decide what to do about his family, then HE needs to implement it. It's his family, not yours. You can support, and you need to agree, but he needs to implement.
If all that gets sorted out and you're still married, then you can decide if you want to have child(ren) and take appropriate steps to implement your decision. However, be aware that if you DO have a child (either biologically or via adoption), that may cause a whole new set of problems with your MIL.
Good luck.
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(1) I would also see if the In Laws income was low enough for a tax credit (home taxes) thru your town.
(2) See if they are eligible for Food Stamp (Snap).
(3) See if they are eligible for any kind of Welfare subsidy.
(4) See if the State has a program to help pay for Medicare Part B.
(5) See if they are eligible for low income housing for seniors.
Contact your local Senior Center. They have all sorts of resources. Counselors can guide you on what low income things are available for them.
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(1) I would also see if the In Laws income was low enough for a tax credit (home taxes) thru your town.
(2) See if they are eligible for Food Stamp (Snap).
(3) See if they are eligible for any kind of Welfare subsidy.
(4) See if the State has a program to help pay for Medicare Part B.
(5) See if they are eligible for low income housing for seniors.
Contact your local Senior Center. They have all sorts of resources. Counselors can guide you on what low income things are available for them.
Sure, this is all decent stuff. But it does NOTHING to help the OP's underlying problem.
1. They are leeches
2. OP's Spouse allows them to be leeches
The In-Laws obviously cannot even make it on the massive gravy train they are on, let alone the much more limited federally assisted one.
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It does help the underlying problem. The more assistance they can get is less the OP has to pay if they decide to still supplement the in laws income.
Yes, agreed they are leeches and this is where a plan needs to be put in place, and like children, tough love needs to be used here. The in laws need to be told the gravy train has come to a screeching halt. The plan needs to be put on paper and followed thru. They can take it or leave it.
The thing that gets me is that they do not appreciate what they have been given. Like spoiled rich brats of movie stars. Think they entitled. That in itself would make me stop coddling these users.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
It would not be acceptable to me long-term even if it wasn't a financial burden. My wife and I spent a lot of time discussing these issues in premarital counseling because she's about to start earning big money and her parents are leeches. It isn't just money they'll take, like most users they'll also drain you of as much time and emotional energy as you let them. That is why it's critical to set and maintain boundaries. It's something they're forcing us to do because otherwise, as ooeei noted, they'll control us forever. I would also note that as terrible as they generally are, personality-wise, some of your in-laws definitely have them beat.
In the future we could provide them with substantial financial support without it hurting our bottom line. We decided that's mostly irrelevant. Sparing them the consequences of their own behavior and continually absorbing the blows ourselves does nothing to help them. Our checking account might not notice the difference, but emotionally and behaviorally it's a different story. They'd never be grateful (which means something to my wife) and nothing would ever change. That's not the type of people they are. We wouldn't be family taking care of family -- we'd be patsies. What we'll probably do is set money aside, creating a kind of parental assistance investment fund similar to what terran mentioned. Whatever we gave them now would be wasted on unnecessary trips, frivolous shopping, and nightly restaurant dinners. Better to set it aside for the boring, practical stuff like nursing home expenses that probably await.
My in-laws are younger than yours and I think my wife's stance might soften as they age. It took years of therapy, and the belated discovery that they'd helped themselves to her money in the past, for her to finally begin to stand up for herself (something that seems so elementary to many of us but is exceedingly hard to do when you've been manipulated and emotionally abused by your caretakers). It doesn't sound like your husband is interested in confronting the toxic dynamics in his family for his own sake. If he's equally unwilling to confront them for yours, you're going to have a lot of hard decisions to make.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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The money, as you say, is not the problem in this situation. No one here is trying to be heartless by saying no, you shouldn't support them. The problem is the lack of boundaries and the treatment of yourself and your husband by his family.
Counseling for yourself, and hopefully your husband, will do wonders for helping you with this situation. I wish you the best of luck, it is not easy to be in the middle of these kind of family relationships.
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I second (third??) the JustNoMIL And JustNoFamily reddit suggestion, this sounds a lot like some of the things I see posted there. I don't believe your husband is beyond hope, I just think he doesn't realize the gravity of the situation. Y'all need to get on the same page about his parents before anything else can hapen.
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Under these circumstances, I would have NO problem giving my in-laws $30k per year....to keep them out of my life. I would absolutely divorce a husband who allowed his mother to treat me like a pile of dog shit.
Financially, you can help them find more affordable housing...which will bring down the amount that you need to subsidize. But other than cutting them off completely (which I doubt your husband will ever do)....you're kind of stuck helping them.
My in-laws were/are terrible with money. My FIL passed away two years ago and left MIL with nothing. My DH is the most successful in his family (also the oldest) so he feels the pressure that is looming with his mother's finances. But she has champagne taste on a beer budget and will NEVER change her spending. Therefore, DH and I have agreed that we will never give her monetary help....EVER. We make a lot less than OP, though....and have kids to put through college. If we made more money, we might help out occasionally with a home repair or new tires for her car....but never a cash hand-out for her to blow on frivolous things.
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Yes we talked about setting aside a lump sum for them to basically have a budget and draw SWR income from, but that would REALLY open us up to pressure from other family members.
And honestly it would break my heart to see him set aside a large lump sum. This is a "good guy" as someone else said. He started working at like 12 helping the school janitor after class and gave every dime to his parents. They were evicted a couple times when he was little and he'd have to entertain the younger siblings, try and make a game out of packing things in garbage bags, etc.
So when I met him and he was broke and planning on working til he died (his words) you can see why I became sort of protective.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
It would not be acceptable to me long-term even if it wasn't a financial burden. My wife and I spent a lot of time discussing these issues in premarital counseling because she's about to start earning big money and her parents are leeches. It isn't just money they'll take, like most users they'll also drain you of as much time and emotional energy as you let them. That is why it's critical to set and maintain boundaries. It's something they're forcing us to do because otherwise, as ooeei noted, they'll control us forever. I would also note that as terrible as they generally are, personality-wise, some of your in-laws definitely have them beat.
In the future we could provide them with substantial financial support without it hurting our bottom line. We decided that's mostly irrelevant. Sparing them the consequences of their own behavior and continually absorbing the blows ourselves does nothing to help them. Our checking account might not notice the difference, but emotionally and behaviorally it's a different story. They'd never be grateful (which means something to my wife) and nothing would ever change. That's not the type of people they are. We wouldn't be family taking care of family -- we'd be patsies. What we'll probably do is set money aside, creating a kind of parental assistance investment fund similar to what terran mentioned. Whatever we gave them now would be wasted on unnecessary trips, frivolous shopping, and nightly restaurant dinners. Better to set it aside for the boring, practical stuff like nursing home expenses that probably await.
My in-laws are younger than yours and I think my wife's stance might soften as they age. It took years of therapy, and the belated discovery that they'd helped themselves to her money in the past, for her to finally begin to stand up for herself (something that seems so elementary to many of us but is exceedingly hard to do when you've been manipulated and emotionally abused by your caretakers). It doesn't sound like your husband is interested in confronting the toxic dynamics in his family for his own sake. If he's equally unwilling to confront them for yours, you're going to have a lot of hard decisions to make.
When he stands up to them, he says something to me afterwards along the lines of "They're not going to like me," "They don't like you, they think you're cheap." So he does confront them, it's just that they know he has this need to be "liked" and they know how to dig into that! If being "liked" is tied to writing blank checks, I can't afford to be "liked" by very many people!
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(1) I would also see if the In Laws income was low enough for a tax credit (home taxes) thru your town.
(2) See if they are eligible for Food Stamp (Snap).
(3) See if they are eligible for any kind of Welfare subsidy.
(4) See if the State has a program to help pay for Medicare Part B.
(5) See if they are eligible for low income housing for seniors.
Contact your local Senior Center. They have all sorts of resources. Counselors can guide you on what low income things are available for them.
Yes they have SNAP cards but MIL has told husband she's embarrassed to use it so idk if they actually use it. The low income senior housing is what husband applied for for them almost 2yrs ago and they still haven't gotten in. He was going to stop by the office last time he was there to try and get straight info from someone in person but the woman was out of the office and he had to catch a plane. He called last week--no call back. I will ask about the property tax credit or medicare part B assistance.
Someone previously suggested a reverse mortgage..They bought the house at the top of the market and have been smoking in it for 10+ years / not doing basic maintenance, so at BEST they have maybe 2k in equity. Not enough to draw on unfortunately, and with fees it would probably be negative equity. They got the mortgage modified into a new 50 year term. (They're 80!) The interest rate was lower for 2 years to provide lower payments while they qualified for elderly housing, but those 2 years are almost up.
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When he stands up to them, he says something to me afterwards along the lines of "They're not going to like me," "They don't like you, they think you're cheap." So he does confront them, it's just that they know he has this need to be "liked" and they know how to dig into that! If being "liked" is tied to writing blank checks, I can't afford to be "liked" by very many people!
Totally agree. My MIL has a tendency to make passive-aggressive comments about me any time my wife shows some backbone. (Little does she know, I have nothing to do with it most of the time. She assumes that because she rarely heard "no" before I came along, I must be the reason. But therapy had way more to do with it than anything else.) At first it irritated me but what it ended up ultimately doing was highlighting to my wife how manipulative MIL was being. And that made her angry, angry enough to venture far outside her comfort zone and start setting limits. But it also made her extremely sad. The emotions were so complicated, and enveloped so much of her former and current relationships with her parents, that it's something we never could have worked through entirely on our own. She needed professional help. Your husband does, too.
What makes your story so outrageous to me is that it goes far beyond your MIL shit-talking you behind your back: she's cruel right to your face. If that's not reason enough for your husband to forcefully overcome his discomfort with being the bad guy, what is?
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You said “our business” so I’m assuming you receive a salary. If not, get yourself on the payroll ASAP. Separate your finances 50/50. Stop managing his personal money. You have no mortgage, no debt, and while you didn’t mention your own retirement savings I’m also going to assume you have that as well. His salary pays for his part of your shared expenses and whatever else he wants to spend it on. Yours does the same. Don’t even look at what he gives away and refuse to discuss it.
Also, therapy. Not for money problems, but for elation ship and communication problems.
I receive a salary, and he receives a salary both from our business, and they go into joint bank account. We have separate retirement accounts. Our finances have been combined since we got married. How does it help in this situation to separate them?
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You threatened divorce, and if you decide to go through with that in the future, separate bank accounts can be a protection (I.e. he can’t give away your money while you’re trying to separate). I’m not saying he’s a bad guy, but you already told us he’s bad with money.
If you never go through with the divorce, you have the ability to put up your own boundaries and divorce yourself from his family. You don’t have to know what he gives them, and you shouldn’t because it causes you stress and anger and sadness. You don’t have to socialize with them, and you shouldn’t because they sound like nasty people. You think he’s bad at setting boundaries (and it sounds like he is), but you’re not sounding much better in that area TBH.
The hard truth is that he is unlikely to make significant changes. He’s 50 years old. His parents are in their 80s. He’s never stood up to them (according to your stories) and he’s chosen their happiness over yours. Therapy may help you two communicate and understand each other better, but it can’t change him into a different person. You have to let him be responsible for his choices regarding his family and money.
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Things CAN change if you put a plan together and stick to it. Whatever the plan is. Your Hub has to get a spine and big boy pants. I know how hard it has to be for him. I am an only child, my Dad died at age 66 and Mom was stubborn and would have starved before asking for help. Fortunately that didn't happen. She managed with her small income and paid off her mortgage after she retired. It was hard after Dad died but she did it. She was so stubborn she had an IRA worth $100K and left it to me! She would die before she touched it. She always said it was for me. I would have preferred she spend it on herself but she made it on her own terms. I just can't fathom this couple that could care less and will take and take and take. Sickening. If at least they would show appreciation it would make all the difference in the world! My Hub sometimes would bring something to Mom's house like lets say a new shovel or salt for her driveway. She would run to the front porch to try to pay him for this stuff. He would tell her to give him a glass of wine as payment. She had a hissy he wouldn't take money! Sometimes she would stuff money into his jacket anyway. She was a tough person! Miss her so much!
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She assumes that because she rarely heard "no" before I came along, I must be the reason.
YES!! (Don't know how to quote only 1 line)
I wish she truly understood, Your son was literally barely making ends meet on 600k a year in income and his plan was to just keep grinding to stay one step ahead. Now he has no worries in the world and can work or not work as he chooses, and pretty much do whatever he wants. Your evil cheap daughter in law did not brainwash your son into thinking that a life free from financial worry is a good thing. He reached that logical conclusion on his own.
When we were dating one time I heard him mention his IRS payment plan to his mom, and she said "Life is hard, it's hard to get by." NO IT IS NOT, NOT WITH SOMETHING CALLED MATH.
I would be interested to hear from someone who grew up low income because I think there's an element of even if you make it "out," you're more comfortable spending to look successful than saving. It seems to be an insecurity thing.
He was very insecure about status-consciousy material things when we met. Wouldn't drive to a nice restaurant in my Prius lol. Now he needs a replacement car for his Maserati coming off lease and I asked what he was thinking of and he said, "A Chevy Bolt." I was shocked and asked why and he goes "The electric range, and Chevy makes really amazing cars now. There's no used ones which sucks but I can probably get last year's model for a pretty good price especially after the federal tax credit. If not I'll get a used Volt. I really like those too." I told him if he wanted to buy the Maserati I wouldn't care, he deserves it, just write a check for it. "No. I don't want to pay for gas anymore. Plus why would I buy an eighty thousand dollar car that doesn't even come with a backup camera when I can get a really nice used Volt for like ten grand with a backup camera and get like 200 mpg? The Chevy comes STANDARD with a backup camera!"
It's funny when he tries midrange stuff and thinks it's the bomb and his own personal discovery. Aldi ("I LOVE this place"), Great Clips ("I used to pay $90 for a haircut. I just got my hair cut for $9.")
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Things CAN change if you put a plan together and stick to it. Whatever the plan is. Your Hub has to get a spine and big boy pants. I know how hard it has to be for him. I am an only child, my Dad died at age 66 and Mom was stubborn and would have starved before asking for help. Fortunately that didn't happen. She managed with her small income and paid off her mortgage after she retired. It was hard after Dad died but she did it. She was so stubborn she had an IRA worth $100K and left it to me! She would die before she touched it. She always said it was for me. I would have preferred she spend it on herself but she made it on her own terms. I just can't fathom this couple that could care less and will take and take and take. Sickening. If at least they would show appreciation it would make all the difference in the world! My Hub sometimes would bring something to Mom's house like lets say a new shovel or salt for her driveway. She would run to the front porch to try to pay him for this stuff. He would tell her to give him a glass of wine as payment. She had a hissy he wouldn't take money! Sometimes she would stuff money into his jacket anyway. She was a tough person! Miss her so much!
Aw your MIL sounds like she was such a sweetheart, I can see why you miss her!
I think that's the thing that upsets me most about this situation is their lack of caring that he's expressed he's NOT okay with it. He's tried to bring up a conversation with them of "Can we put together a plan of what the next 5 or 10 years look like" and his mother starts crying and sobbing "We just want to die."
They are 80 and husband says they're not able to do any of the phone calls or paperwork themselves that something like elderly housing applications entail. I can understand that, it's a huge stack of paperwork! But then he has to get information from his mother for the various applications and she starts crying or saying jokingly "Why don't I just get a job" etc. She'll sporadically send documentation snail mail after the deadline has already been missed, etc. The crying gets my husband off the phone real quick. And then he feels guilty that he's "made her cry."
The issue with cutting out the money he gives that goes to FIL's cigarettes (~300 a month) is that my husband says he's seen his dad get violent with his mom if he's refused a cigarette. (FIL has some degree of dementia.)
Someone suggested senior center help w like a counselor or something, somebody to help shepherd the applications and talk to them about options bc husband is too close to the situation. I'll tell him that idea.
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Apparently now they are a little more receptive to the idea of elderly housing because as MIL told my husband "There are a lot of Puerto Ricans moving onto our block. It's overrun."
Yeah. As if she wasn't charming enough, I forgot to mention that my mother in law is a very vocal rascist. She found out after we'd been married a couple years that I'm half Jewish, and said "Oh it makes sense now."
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It sounds to me as though you and your husband have a good relationship and make a good team. And congratulations on the increase in your joint net worth and the freedom from worry that it brings.
I'm sorry your in-laws are so troublesome. Given the sterling job you have done on managing your husband's income and creating some real wealth for yourselves, it is not the actual money amounts given to the inlaws which are the real problem, it's their attitudes and the way in which your husband responds to them. So I agree that therapy is the way to go - although I agree with those who say that it is your husband's responsibility to manage the relationship with his family the impacts of the way he does that are not just imposed on him but on you as well and on your relationship, so I think couples therapy rather than individual therapy could be the place to start.
More immediately, some reading on boundaries would give your husband some scripts to use when talking to his family. For instance, next time one of his siblings suggests a $500 restaurant he needs to be able to say something like "I'd prefer to [have pizza/go to cheap place] and I'm happy to treat you to it". If there is some push-back he needs to be able to say "I'm not interested in [expensive place] this time, I'd be sorry not to meet you at [cheap place]". His parents are more difficult. I think you need to develop your own boundaries. For instance, if it were me I would say that they were no longer welcome in my home but that if they wanted to visit we could put them up in a hotel and take them out for meals. You need to work out your own boundaries and explain them to your husband in a way he can understand and support. Good luck.
I would be interested to hear from someone who grew up low income because I think there's an element of even if you make it "out," you're more comfortable spending to look successful than saving. It seems to be an insecurity thing.
I did grow up low income, albeit with parents who budgeted carefully and saved what they could for the future. I think growing up poor and then having money can take you in either direction: you either stay in the same poverty mindset and don't spend, or you over-compensate and spend conspicuously - it's as though being poor as a child takes away an element of balance. I'm now FIREd on a comfortable income and after decades of cheap living have come round to the idea of spending money not just on basic maintenance of my house but on beautifying it and having nice things in it.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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No. No it would not be acceptable to me long term. And it would be even less acceptable at the point they treated me badly in my own home. In your shoes, I would be finding three counselors and telling him he had 30 days to choose which one he like best (or let me choose) and then we'd have an appointment within three weeks, and weekly appointments after that for as long as either of us wanted them to continue. If he wasn't willing to do that, I would know for sure how little value he placed on my needs, and then I'd be calling a lawyer.
I don't see how people can say that it sounds like you have a good relationship. He allows other people to treat you terribly in your own home and doesn't stand up for you, even when those people are his responsibility.
His mom cries on the phone? Too f-in bad. She's an adult woman, and what you are requiring of her is in no way unreasonable. She can rail against it as though it is, but that's on her. You (well, your DH) needs to accept that what he wants to do isn't cruel or mean or unreasonable, and he needs to hold on to that when she pushes back. A counselor can help if he's unable to set and maintain that boundary on his own. If he's not willing to go to a counselor, what you have no is almost certainly your life until these people die. And to bring a child into a home like this, with disrespect and even physical violence is to teach that child how very little value s/he should place on herself. Mommy allows people to treat her like crap and doesn't even have dignified treatment in her own home among her own people. So I guess that's how I can expect to be treated in the future and what I should tolerate from others. Is that what you want that child to learn?
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Things CAN change if you put a plan together and stick to it. Whatever the plan is. Your Hub has to get a spine and big boy pants. I know how hard it has to be for him. I am an only child, my Dad died at age 66 and Mom was stubborn and would have starved before asking for help. Fortunately that didn't happen. She managed with her small income and paid off her mortgage after she retired. It was hard after Dad died but she did it. She was so stubborn she had an IRA worth $100K and left it to me! She would die before she touched it. She always said it was for me. I would have preferred she spend it on herself but she made it on her own terms. I just can't fathom this couple that could care less and will take and take and take. Sickening. If at least they would show appreciation it would make all the difference in the world! My Hub sometimes would bring something to Mom's house like lets say a new shovel or salt for her driveway. She would run to the front porch to try to pay him for this stuff. He would tell her to give him a glass of wine as payment. She had a hissy he wouldn't take money! Sometimes she would stuff money into his jacket anyway. She was a tough person! Miss her so much!
Aw your MIL sounds like she was such a sweetheart, I can see why you miss her!
I think that's the thing that upsets me most about this situation is their lack of caring that he's expressed he's NOT okay with it. He's tried to bring up a conversation with them of "Can we put together a plan of what the next 5 or 10 years look like" and his mother starts crying and sobbing "We just want to die."
They are 80 and husband says they're not able to do any of the phone calls or paperwork themselves that something like elderly housing applications entail. I can understand that, it's a huge stack of paperwork! But then he has to get information from his mother for the various applications and she starts crying or saying jokingly "Why don't I just get a job" etc. She'll sporadically send documentation snail mail after the deadline has already been missed, etc. The crying gets my husband off the phone real quick. And then he feels guilty that he's "made her cry."
The issue with cutting out the money he gives that goes to FIL's cigarettes (~300 a month) is that my husband says he's seen his dad get violent with his mom if he's refused a cigarette. (FIL has some degree of dementia.)
Someone suggested senior center help w like a counselor or something, somebody to help shepherd the applications and talk to them about options bc husband is too close to the situation. I'll tell him that idea.
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OK, this comment demands a response. Forget sending these people a counselor, and forget politely urging them to clean up their act. You have just described physical domestic abuse - violence - against an elderly woman.
This is a crime. In fact, in most places, it is ALSO a crime not to report this crime. If this in fact happened, it needs to be reported to the authorities. It is abuse.
Also, think about this critically: you have just told us that your husband witnessed a violent felony against his own mother . . . and did nothing.
If someone punched my mother, I wouldn't be sitting idly by or waiting on some eventual visit from the authorities. But this isn't about me.
I'm going to be blunt about this: a "good guy" doesn't turn a blind eye towards the physical abuse of his mother. Or the emotional abuse of her. Or of his wife. Or make excuses for the abusers. Or ignore the abuse.
These are all giant flashing red flags. Your husband may not be an intentionally evil guy, but he has been affected by manipulation and abuse and is now willingly enabling it. Hurt people hurt other people (including by allowing them to be hurt).
Sadly, this didn't surprise me when I read it: emotional abuse often involves physical abuse (and vice versa), especially if it's severe emotional abuse.
You are dealing with very serious issues here. The best you can do immediately is get yourself therapy - because I guarantee these things have affected you too. Not least because this isn't all blindingly obvious to you: it should be if you have healthy boundaries that protect you.
This is far beyond the scope of a money forum. You're dealing with intense, difficult, challenging emotional and personal issues, including emotional and physical abuse. It has been years in the making and will take some intervention to unwind. You need to start down that path. You keep responding to the simple solutions here, like how you might set aside some amount of money, but these problems go way beyond some simple financial solution and cannot be fixed by one.
You also need to figure out whether you need to report the crime: I would call a lawyer or simply report if required. (And be aware that when you do, that will have immense consequences emotionally, which is unavoidable.) You may consider saying nothing, but you do NOT want to be behind that information, you want to be out in front of it: I guarantee that it's even less fun when the authorities call YOU and ask why you ignored domestic abuse when you know this lady was being beaten at home. You do NOT want that kind of investigation and drama in your life.
Again: you need to seek a professional's help. Not because anything is wrong with you, but because this situation mandates some professional care. You're way beyond the scope and aid of this forum.
I shouldn't have said "violent," I think it was like FIL threw an empty paper cigarette pack at a wall and went storming around throwing a tantrum or slamming doors looking for hidden cigarettes basically. I wasn't there, if I ever witnessed any sort of abuse I would consider it my moral duty to report it.
Yes I recognize this mess is beyond the scope of a personal finance forum. I just wanted to know what a general consensus among impartial, financially-educated people is on whether the financial piece of it would be unacceptable to you, even if it's not harming you financially (any more). I expected to be called cheap and miserly (like my sister called me when I tried to talk about it a long time ago) but you all have agreed with me that it is totally unacceptable.
This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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No. No it would not be acceptable to me long term. And it would be even less acceptable at the point they treated me badly in my own home. In your shoes, I would be finding three counselors and telling him he had 30 days to choose which one he like best (or let me choose) and then we'd have an appointment within three weeks, and weekly appointments after that for as long as either of us wanted them to continue. If he wasn't willing to do that, I would know for sure how little value he placed on my needs, and then I'd be calling a lawyer.
I don't see how people can say that it sounds like you have a good relationship. He allows other people to treat you terribly in your own home and doesn't stand up for you, even when those people are his responsibility.
His mom cries on the phone? Too f-in bad. She's an adult woman, and what you are requiring of her is in no way unreasonable. She can rail against it as though it is, but that's on her. You (well, your DH) needs to accept that what he wants to do isn't cruel or mean or unreasonable, and he needs to hold on to that when she pushes back. A counselor can help if he's unable to set and maintain that boundary on his own. If he's not willing to go to a counselor, what you have no is almost certainly your life until these people die. And to bring a child into a home like this, with disrespect and even physical violence is to teach that child how very little value s/he should place on herself. Mommy allows people to treat her like crap and doesn't even have dignified treatment in her own home among her own people. So I guess that's how I can expect to be treated in the future and what I should tolerate from others. Is that what you want that child to learn?
I was thinking traditional counselor for me/him and financially-minded counselor for him alone or him/parents (not sure what this type of counselor is actually called). He voluntarily offered help with a couple bills years and years ago, and somehow it evolved into this "you must pay all bills and xxxx fixed cash per month on the first of the month." (Yes it is actually "due" the first of the month or she calls husband repeatedly. She doesn't know I'm the one actually paying it because he doesn't care to handle any financial day to day stuff.)
He had an expensive divorce from a spendypants he caught cheating (0 assets to divide, but he volunteered 100k a year alimony for 5 years and took all the debt she racked up) about 12 years ago and moved in with the parents for like a year, but MIL told me "We took him in." Like she was doing him charity. That is when it got totally screwy because she got used to having a big income to play with, eat out or get delivery every night, shopping, spa, an errand boy etc...and no evil daughter in law (me) saying WTF dude you're broke.
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This is a tough one.
How is your relationship otherwise? How often have you spoken about this in the last couple of years? Did he take your response to that awful Christmas seriously? Did you follow up on it or just say it the once? How has your relationship dealt with other issues when you have different opinions or conflicting values?
How are your finances? Do you work? Do you combine all your finances? Do you have any of your own accounts or savings?
How much are your household expenses and how much are the in-law household expenses? Is the money causing you hardship or is the issue that you are giving favours and spending time with awful, rude, ungrateful people?
I sympathise, this is a shitty situation that you are in. If you want to commiserate you can check out my tale of in-law woe here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned/).
This seems like a relationship problem rather than a money problem. I prescribe some work on boundaries with the in-laws and serious conversations with the husband and a therapist. Captain Awkward (https://captainawkward.com/) is my go-to resource for useful scripts for setting boundaries with people who are awful to you.
Best of luck.
Thank you. The link to your story didn't work on my phone, I will try it on the computer when I get home.
Otherwise, the relationship is great. He's my best friend, and I really don't want to get a divorce.
It's a journal so you'd need to be logged in, could that be it?
I'm glad the relationship is working for you. I would work on explaining the effect that his choices are having on you. He is choosing to prioritise many people over you, and not calling them when they are awful to you.
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The money situation with your in-laws isn't great, but it sounds like you can afford it financially. It's ugly, it wouldn't work for me, but maybe it is actually low down on the line of things to be sorting out. The siblings I'd be cracking down on.
I also think it would be perfectly reasonable to not give his parents any more money. It's not a requirement. You are not a terrible person if you don't give a huge amount of money to people who are terrible custodians of your hard-earned resources. They are going out of their way to sabotage their own lives, they could spend every penny you have and more, this is a black hole of take-take-take that will never be full.
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Remember, you don't need to solve their problems or answer all your questions. You need to communicate the decision. Repeat as necessary. Don't justify, argue, defend or explain. Just communicate the decision. "We won't be giving siblings money"; "if you are rude to mstache67 we will leave"; "We will pay your bills but we will not give you cash". Whatever it is.
The phrase "Mmmmmmm, and what are you planning to do about that" is a great answer to "I don't have any money to ...". You don't need to fix someone else's problem.
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I'm strongly and wildly against moving the in-laws any closer to you. No cottage, no moving in, no coming any closer.
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The tears are just another weapon or tool to get what they want. At the moment they are Kryptonite to your husband. It is possible to get back from this place.
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This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."
That often happens with abusive or shitty families, because most people don't have abusive or shitty families. Often it's uncomfortable to talk about the details, so people assume you have a reasonably good family like they do. All the people you talk to hear is "His mom and dad are 80, but we really want to save that extra 5% of our income so we're gonna let them get evicted because occasionally his mother isn't super nice to me."
In reality it's more like "His mom and dad are constantly complete assholes to us, waste money on cigarettes and lottery tickets, smoke the cigarettes in our home against our direct instruction, make no effort to get public benefits which they qualify for, and make me cry most holidays and deride me for being Jewish, so I don't really want to give them $30,000 a year as a reward for that behavior anymore since they've already squandered the $XXX,XXX we've given them over the years." Some people will still think you should do it because you can afford it, and those people are either incredibly stupid and pushovers, or are still looking at it as if it's their nice parents and this is all an old age dementia thing, which it's not.
All of that is pretty uncomfortable to tell a stranger, so you just have to live with the responses you're getting or stop talking about it. Really the only reason to talk about it is to ask for advice, and asking for advice without giving all of the information is a bad idea. The devil is in the details with this stuff, and most people just don't have a frame of reference for shitty families and can't wrap their head around how it works. I think if you're worried about what other people think, try to either minimize discussion of it, or if they do talk badly about you just let them know how much you have already spent on the parents (tally that shit up), and that they are extremely mean and wasteful and ungrateful so you're donating to a worthy charity instead. "Yeah well we've already given them $XXX,XXX over the years and they're still complete assholes to us and waste everything we give them, so we figured the money would be better used by X charity where the people actually need it.
If a financial advisor told me he hopes his kids don't treat him that way, I'd be tempted to say "If you treat your kids the way they do there's a good chance it'll happen. Goodbye." and then walk right out of his office to take my business elsewhere.
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Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.
Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.
In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.
I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.
(1) Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2) Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3) Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4) Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5) Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6) Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7) Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8) Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.
You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.
Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them
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OP, comment on the dementia. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Depending on the type of dementia and the stage, violence is absolutely possible - physical, verbal, sexual, all of it. So are all sorts of other problems. At some point, you're going to have to get them into some sort of situation where he can be cared for. Dementia can turn a perfectly lovely, boundary respecting person into a monster, do the opposite, and everything in between.
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OP, comment on the dementia. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Depending on the type of dementia and the stage, violence is absolutely possible - physical, verbal, sexual, all of it. So are all sorts of other problems. At some point, you're going to have to get them into some sort of situation where he can be cared for. Dementia can turn a perfectly lovely, boundary respecting person into a monster, do the opposite, and everything in between.
Yes I have no clue why MIL wouldn't want to move into senior housing just to get some full time help and a close-by support network..FIL has fallen a couple times because their house has stairs and he uses a cane, was caught disconnecting a smoke detector in the bank so he could smoke while she was talking to a teller, etc. She seems to enjoy complaining about it to my husband on the phone, but staunchly won't move him anywhere with more advanced care by himself. Says "he's going to die soon. All your relatives die around [insert upcoming holiday]. Let him alone." So she basically has to keep an eye on him 24/7 and is homebound except for groceries, post office, etc. They need to sit down with someone experienced in these issues.
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This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."
That often happens with abusive or shitty families, because most people don't have abusive or shitty families. Often it's uncomfortable to talk about the details, so people assume you have a reasonably good family like they do. All the people you talk to hear is "His mom and dad are 80, but we really want to save that extra 5% of our income so we're gonna let them get evicted because occasionally his mother isn't super nice to me."
In reality it's more like "His mom and dad are constantly complete assholes to us, waste money on cigarettes and lottery tickets, smoke the cigarettes in our home against our direct instruction, make no effort to get public benefits which they qualify for, and make me cry most holidays and deride me for being Jewish, so I don't really want to give them $30,000 a year as a reward for that behavior anymore since they've already squandered the $XXX,XXX we've given them over the years." Some people will still think you should do it because you can afford it, and those people are either incredibly stupid and pushovers, or are still looking at it as if it's their nice parents and this is all an old age dementia thing, which it's not.
All of that is pretty uncomfortable to tell a stranger, so you just have to live with the responses you're getting or stop talking about it. Really the only reason to talk about it is to ask for advice, and asking for advice without giving all of the information is a bad idea. The devil is in the details with this stuff, and most people just don't have a frame of reference for shitty families and can't wrap their head around how it works. I think if you're worried about what other people think, try to either minimize discussion of it, or if they do talk badly about you just let them know how much you have already spent on the parents (tally that shit up), and that they are extremely mean and wasteful and ungrateful so you're donating to a worthy charity instead. "Yeah well we've already given them $XXX,XXX over the years and they're still complete assholes to us and waste everything we give them, so we figured the money would be better used by X charity where the people actually need it.
If a financial advisor told me he hopes his kids don't treat him that way, I'd be tempted to say "If you treat your kids the way they do there's a good chance it'll happen. Goodbye." and then walk right out of his office to take my business elsewhere.
To your comment of tallying it up, yeah husband has never done that. Brother in law had a windfall ~10 years ago, paid off 50K of debt for them, they racked it back up. Now BIL is in debt and borrowed rent money from us over the summer. It's a huge cycle and husband has already committed to an absolute NO policy on his brother and sister because he finally got fed up. So now they give each other money. Several years ago husband started getting pissed about giving the parents money, asked his brother to split some of their bills, brother said, "No if I did that I wouldn't be able to give Sister $4000 a month until she finds the right job." These are otherwise very sharp people who somehow think this is how loving families operate. I would guess between husband and his brother they've easily given the parents over a million dollars through the years.
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Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.
Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.
In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.
I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.
(1) Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2) Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3) Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4) Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5) Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6) Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7) Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8) Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.
You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.
Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them
Would you encourage husband to research and contact all these different resources like he's been doing on the housing (albeit with no results), or me do it myself and present it to him to follow through on? I don't want to stick my nose in any of this and I don't even know most of the parents' relevant info as he does, but he travels a lot and otherwise the administrative stuff falls through the cracks. I asked him about delegating administrative help with applications/phone calls/forms to his siblings who do actually know the relevant info, but he said they don't have time. Massive boundary issues going on, but I will for sure initiate counseling and hope to be able to report back with some progress or improvement.
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Ask DH if he'd like you to run down all the details for him to present; it sounds like it will never get done otherwise. You have the money problem -- the others certainly don't want anything to change.
My MIL needed senior housing at age 90, yet there was a ton of denial going on. Bottom line, she grieved that her way of life had to change, but was fortunately still astute enough to recognize that she could no longer responsibly drive, live alone in a money pit house, & was too far away from family who could help her with errands, social life, etc. Still, her grown children had to take charge of the details, & she was angry at them for several months until she realized that she liked (or accepted) her new life. She lived until 99, & I believe her senior community was a big factor in improving her quality & quantity of years, even with dementia the last 2 years.
You both need to follow the Golden Rule: you who have the gold make the rules.
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I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)
But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?
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Yes, this is it in a nutshell. It's the hard part. I don't have an answer.
"You can help, it's a small amount of money, so help." I totally see that point.
"They are MOOCHES who will not help themselves!" Totally another good point.
You have to work this out. Honestly, if I thought it would work, I'd put a certain $ in an account each year and when it's gone, it's gone. Sorry mom. Or, what I've seen done is children buying a house from their parents, or buying a house and putting their parents in it. So they have a place to live. My in-laws did this with FILs parents. When they died/ went into the state home, FIL and MIL sold it. It was their house.
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I second (third??) the JustNoMIL And JustNoFamily reddit suggestion, this sounds a lot like some of the things I see posted there. I don't believe your husband is beyond hope, I just think he doesn't realize the gravity of the situation. Y'all need to get on the same page about his parents before anything else can hapen.
This, absolutely. Your husband is in an abusive relationship with his parents and siblings. Since this has been going on most of his life, he has been conditioned to see it as normal. But it is not. Go, go, go to those reddit subs! You (both of you) need to deal with the relationship/abuse issues before you can deal rationally and as a team with the financial issues.
Some things for you two to think about (not to answer here)
DH is afraid his siblings "won't like him" if he stops giving them $. Why does he need so badly to be liked by them? What does *he* get out of this relationship? If they stop "liking" him when he cuts off the money, what kind of "liking" is that?
DH allows his mother to insult and belittle his wife (along with him). Does he realize that? Is it OK to cause pain to his chosen life partner in order to avoid pissing off his mother? Why?
If his mother gets upset when he makes a reasonable suggestion (like senior housing), or sets a reasonable boundary (like a limit on the financial help), does that mean the boundary or suggestion is wrong? Or could it be that his mother is getting upset because he's resisting her UNreasonable demands, and that her tears are manipulation?
There's a saying on RBN: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. That's what your DH is doing. He needs to learn that it's OK to say, "Mom, I'll give you a warm coat, but I'm no longer setting myself on fire for you."
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As a person with experience with emotionally abusive relationships, the story about hiding the cigarettes, throwing an empty cigarette carton is violence. So is stomping around. You have to stop making excuses for your inlaws and see the reality. And if your mother in law felt threatened, it is reportable. Sadly domestic abuse isn't taken very seriously in the USA but I think we're getting there.
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Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.
Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.
In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.
I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.
(1) Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2) Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3) Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4) Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5) Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6) Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7) Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8) Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.
You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.
Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them
Would you encourage husband to research and contact all these different resources like he's been doing on the housing (albeit with no results), or me do it myself and present it to him to follow through on? I don't want to stick my nose in any of this and I don't even know most of the parents' relevant info as he does, but he travels a lot and otherwise the administrative stuff falls through the cracks. I asked him about delegating administrative help with applications/phone calls/forms to his siblings who do actually know the relevant info, but he said they don't have time. Massive boundary issues going on, but I will for sure initiate counseling and hope to be able to report back with some progress or improvement.
I would suggest you tell your Hub your are going to do research. Ask him if he has details he can tell you such as their income, mortgage, and whatever he can tell you. Tell him you are researching a resolution for his parents. Tell him you know he is busy with business but will need his attention once you find out all the details...as far as you can go. Tell him also, he may need to take time off with you to investigate housing and talking to Senior Center people if that needs to happen. Tell him this is GOING to happen. Make sure he is on the same page and that the ultimate reason you are doing this is to HELP his parents and to reduce their dependence on the both of you. You have to get him involved in this. You can't continue to feel like you are the wicked witch which you are not. Change is hard but you and your Hub have done more than most would do. Time for independence. Does your Hub have some strong points that you can put him in charge of. If he feels involved, he will help move things forward with you. Good LUCK!
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I second (third??) the JustNoMIL And JustNoFamily reddit suggestion, this sounds a lot like some of the things I see posted there. I don't believe your husband is beyond hope, I just think he doesn't realize the gravity of the situation. Y'all need to get on the same page about his parents before anything else can hapen.
This, absolutely. Your husband is in an abusive relationship with his parents and siblings. Since this has been going on most of his life, he has been conditioned to see it as normal. But it is not. Go, go, go to those reddit subs! You (both of you) need to deal with the relationship/abuse issues before you can deal rationally and as a team with the financial issues.
Some things for you two to think about (not to answer here)
DH is afraid his siblings "won't like him" if he stops giving them $. Why does he need so badly to be liked by them? What does *he* get out of this relationship? If they stop "liking" him when he cuts off the money, what kind of "liking" is that?
DH allows his mother to insult and belittle his wife (along with him). Does he realize that? Is it OK to cause pain to his chosen life partner in order to avoid pissing off his mother? Why?
If his mother gets upset when he makes a reasonable suggestion (like senior housing), or sets a reasonable boundary (like a limit on the financial help), does that mean the boundary or suggestion is wrong? Or could it be that his mother is getting upset because he's resisting her UNreasonable demands, and that her tears are manipulation?
There's a saying on RBN: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. That's what your DH is doing. He needs to learn that it's OK to say, "Mom, I'll give you a warm coat, but I'm no longer setting myself on fire for you."
Yes I am going to start bringing this up to him this weekend and I will frame it in the context of "You are being manipulated and abused if you're told that basically your entire family will despise you if you stop this financial pattern." I did not think of it in the context that he's actually being abused by all these different people until I wrote about the ex-wife and realized huh that was pretty much the same scenario take-take-take.
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You are being manipulated and abused if you're told that basically your entire family will despise you if you stop this financial pattern.
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Consider NOT using language like this at all. This language says th o him: "YOU have a problem, YOU are weak, YOUR family is inferior". Even if his is all true, he must discover this himself. It sounds like you value him and your relationship enough that hurting your husband with this kind of dramatic escalation may not truly be your intent.
I read that your brother-in-law is sending 4k a month to their sister. That's even more than your 30 K a year to the parents. Consider the possibility that your husband and his siblings have complex codependent issues from childhood. As the oldest, it sounds like he may have felt the role of the only responsible adult, even if he was Just a child.
You (and your husband) have accomplished an incredible amount in the 7 years you have been married! Celebrate that while you carefully begin to address the issues. Another year of 30K is less than the difference between the luxury car and the Chevy Volt. If you feel he would have deserved another luxury car, does he not also deserve the comfort that would come with one more year of parent-wasted expense while you (or both of you) carefully pick your way through this field of land mines.
This is from my own experience: researching and presenting a report on solutions is as likely to cause more strain between you and more pain for you as it is to help. The odds of solving action may not be high yet. Don't set yourself up
You are smart to be considering counseling. Also consider limiting your "discussion" this weekend to sharing your plans to seek counselling, for yourself, so that you can explore and find tools to manage your own feelings about your unanticipated issues interacting with the family that came along with your decision to joint your and your husband's life together.
Think of a series of nested circles. Seek counsel and tools and emotional protection for yourself first. Then for your relationship. Then after that, for him. Lastly, and maybe unneeded after the first three are achieved, the family. This is "retrospective" advice from me. Had I done it th his way, I would have saved myself frustration and pain. Don't let his family hang as an issue between you. They don't deserve to be that important. It is my experience that one spouse cannot solve the other's family issues. Find ways to make them irrelevant. Hopefully your husband will choose to tackle those issues for himself, or find his own ways to make them irrelevant. Emotional eruptions/ultimatums (from stewing on problems) often blindside the other person, they haven't been thinking about it as intensely just prior)
Even a unilaterally developed "plan of action" is a no win for you without buy in.
Fix what you can completely control first (you). Then move on to making this issue irrelevant in your relationship. It sounds like that is how you achieved so much financially. Why not use the same, successful method. It clear my works for you
Wish I'd figured this out decades ago.
First rule of "holes":: when you are in one, stop digging.
And
Avoid making demands of others that have little chance of being met. Set it up so the odds are in your favor first, Or Find another way to get what you Want or need. Often involves creating your own solution or reframing the problem.
I wish you both the best.
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Sounds like your husband is struggling with his family's dysfunction and trying get away from it.
Imagine him growing up in that family environment during his early life? It's actually amazing he seems to be doing well and is not
totally f***ked up.
A thought:
How about setting up a Trust fund for his parents, with an independent trustee. The trust can be set up for reasonable disbursements on a regular basis.
This takes the money management out of your hands and you can demonstrate that you are helping them.
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I strongly suggest you and your husband read: Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie. I also support all the suggestions for therapy. Your income is incredible, financially you’re fine. I get how your husband wants to help. I’m sure he’s been manipulated for so long in this family it’s all normal to him. You have to do everything in your power to have the best life with him together and make the family of the two of you and anyone you might add to it as the priority.
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One suggestion that I haven't seen posted yet: get a geriatric social worker. My grandmother was a nightmare to my mother for years upon years. After spending some time in the hospital, grandma finally ended up in an assisted living facility with an on-site social worker, and the social worker was an absolute godsend. She could get my grandma to do things my mom never had. At least for my grandma, she cleaned up her act a LOT for the social worker: she would speak respectfully, engage in the process, and listen to her suggestions, as opposed to her interactions with my mom which just always devolved into verbal abuse and/or tears. In your situation, I would outsource as much as possible of of the emotional labor around accessing services, planning, etc. to the social worker.
You definitely have the resources to pay for a private social worker. You may also be able to access one through local senior services.
Good luck. This is a difficult situation and I'll echo the suggestions for therapy for you and your husband.
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Definitely some great ideas being thrown around. Plenty to ponder.
One thought for talking with your husband. Try using "I" language. Instead of focusing on what he should do, take the time to share how the family's actions and his actions are impacting you.
Example
When your mother does X, I feel Y.
I feel like your mother is taking advantage of you. When she does this I feel hurt that you are being treated that way by your own mother.
Using I language takes away the blaming and accusations. No one can argue with how you feel.
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Definitely some great ideas being thrown around. Plenty to ponder.
One thought for talking with your husband. Try using "I" language. Instead of focusing on what he should do, take the time to share how the family's actions and his actions are impacting you.
Example
When your mother does X, I feel Y.
I feel like your mother is taking advantage of you. When she does this I feel hurt that you are being treated that way by your own mother.
Using I language takes away the blaming and accusations. No one can argue with how you feel.
Yes I had to use the "I" language yesterday on a different issue..my sister asked me to rent her an apartment in her city because she's coming back from living abroad and gave up her lease before she left. I told husband that I nicely told her I wasn't comfortable doing that, and he was like well do it if you want to. I had to say "No I do not want to rent her a place because that is not my responsibility and it would make me feel crummy." We have family in that city who offered for her to stay in their home until she gets settled. She said to me "I knew you'd say no. You know all of my friends' families do whatever they can for each other."
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This is not about money. It never was.
Improve your lives and start standing up for yourselves. It sounds like your husband will need your help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/31sztq/its_not_about_arguments_its_about_underlying/
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She said to me "I knew you'd say no. You know all of my friends' families do whatever they can for each other."
Wow! Good job not letting her manipulate you.
Why in the hell would you need to "get her" an apartment? In instances where an apartment has been needed immediately (like, a friend have a home fire while he was at work on a Tuesday and was instantly homeless . . . no fire insurance, either), there were plenty of places that had immediate vacancies.
In that case, he had a bit of trauma-induced paralysis from walking through the ashes, Red Cross showed up and gave him a couple bottles of water and $90 gift card to Walmart to go buy socks and underwear, and in the heat of the moment he was considering taking another abusive loved on up on their "generous offer" to go stay with them . . . an offer which would be analogous to your husband moving in with his parents from what I heard.
Knowing even a small bit of the history there, I was like "clearly that is a bad idea. Let's go check you in at the nearest motel." The next day at work, when he again mentioned "I don't know. I really don't know what else to do. I don't want to go live with them because of all the issues, but what else can I do? I don't have extra money, and I just lost everything I own." The trauma and lack of normal functioning was apparent on his face. So I hopped online, pulled up the Zillow map, and said "Look here: there are ten places in your immediate area that have apartments open. You say rents are a little higher than what you were paying, but I'm sure some of these will be perfect for you and your son. Stay at the motel a couple more nights and go look at some places on Friday when you have time. I can go with you if you want." Guess what, he was thrilled when he looked on Friday and realized he could indeed just move into a nice apartment immediately. He signed a lease, bought a bunch of Craigslist furniture, and voila!
I personally never had to spend more than 2 days looking before having a perfectly nice apartment to live in. Even in one afternoon of looking there is always a place that is just fine. She is having trouble wrapping her head around staying in a hotel for a week while until she can get a lease signed? Actually, if she wasn't acting so immature and entitled . . . and I'm guessing there is a history of this . . . probably you would feel comfortable letting her stay with you a few days until she has found an apartment.
Anyway, good job having a strong spine on that one! Feels good not letting people stomp on the reasonable boundaries.