Here's my deal. 32 y/o male, single/no kids, no savings (this means you have problems everytime a large expense comes up, which put you into a hole you need to dig out of), $30,000 in student loans(32 and still have loans means you've paid a lot of interest over the years), $5,000 credit card (in a debt reduction program called ACCC) (You should have no revolving credit card debt) with payoff 03/2018. The credit card debt is old: nowadays I live a VERY simple life, much to the tune of MMM.
I studied sociology (why? What career was this heading towards?)at university and never really figured out how to be a ''professional'' person (hint, this is where the money is) so to speak. Tried social work but didn't enjoy it really (social work exposes you to the worst of society... you need to have strong resilience and support networks to endure it). I spent several years working menial jobs pursuing art and just having fun living in Chicago (menial jobs + having fun in an expensive city = no money leftover), then became interested in sustainable agriculture and started working on organic farms(this is another problem), and worked up to a management position at a farm in PennsylvaniaOk this is a really really good sign, things are turning around!, but the money was never great because we were in a poor market oh crap..
So I'm in this situation where I've become really passionate about sustainable agriculture/cooking/baking(good to know you've figured out your passion), but I'm also an artist(ok unless you are Picasso, you're not going to make a huge living out of this, and even then, Picasso only made a shit ton of money when he died), and attempting to find a logical path forward in my life to get financial freedom. Their is certainly money in sustainable farming, and I'm talking to some investors now about the possibility of starting a farm of my own, but I also don't necessarily want to have that much responsibility(Gah! Yes you do. This is where the money is), and have a bit of a fear of going more broke if it doesn't work out. (Take a chance - only certainty about not doing anything is carrying on as you are)
MMM said on Tim Ferriss's show that "making money is easy." I WISH!!
WTF am I doing wrong? I'm a smart dude, did really well in school, and am generally upbeat, happy, and enjoying life, I'm just on this path to financial ruin, despite living simply.
Save me!
I'm not sure OP needs any more exhortations to make money, he needs to know how to do it. Which pretty much means breaking into the "professional" classes, something he has failed to do.
How does someone in the US, intelligent and educated but without contacts and experience in the professional world, get to the position where they are earning a "professional" level salary? How does this person get out of poverty? What is the magical stepping stone?
There are millions of people in a similar position: stuck at entry-level/poverty-level earnings. How do you get to be one of the few lucky ones that makes it out of there?
What is your source of income now?
Thanks for all the replies. Lot's of great ideas.
So I probably apply to 5 jobs a week, sometimes more. So I'm applying. I have a coherent resume, but it leans heavily towards horticulture/botony/farming and as I've stated, the best I could hope for would be to get a job that pays $40,000 in these fields, unless I'd go back and get a PhD in Botany, and teach, then I'd be looking at more debt, and still, the money isn't great.
I'm certainly willing to relocate and just about anything/everything. The challenge is, what the hell do I do!? Just out of curiosity, I went through the US News and World Report's list of the Top 100 occupations in the US, and it's basically medicine and tech. I haven't an ounce of interest in medicine, and I'm a world class hypochondriac, so that's out! Tech is a possibility, of course, but I have no education in anything tech related. I could go back to school, but this seems anti-FIRE.
I'm not necessarily hell bent on retirement, but I can clearly see the path ahead: With $40,000 annual salary jobs, even living like GHANDI, I won't be even remotely close to FIRE until I'm 70. Case in point: If I live off of $20,000 a year. I need $500,000 to get to that 25x annual spending #. That will take me 25 years. That assumes nothing f-ed up happens, like I get sick and have absurd medical bills, have kids, etc.
What am I missing?
32+17=49! That is lots before 70! Even with 5 years to hit those debt payments, you're going to be fine.
The two articles that BJ linked to are the lists I was talking about. It isn't too late, you aren't too poor, retirement is in sight
Hi! I'm experienced at the being broke & struggling with the "earning" side of equation. I really have been having to learn how to have a profit motive, always having (like you) chased jobs that give me fulfillment at the expense of $$. I read the book Overcoming Underearning which is targeted at women but so helpful towards dealing with these things regardless of your gender.
Interestingly enough, MMM's 50 jobs over $50,000 post has "boutique organic farmer" at #49.I have never met an organic farmer who pulls in $50K a year after expenses, and I know a TON of organic farmers.
Interestingly enough, MMM's 50 jobs over $50,000 post has "boutique organic farmer" at #49.I have never met an organic farmer who pulls in $50K a year after expenses, and I know a TON of organic farmers.
unless I'd go back and get a PhD in Botany, and teach, then I'd be looking at more debt, and still, the money isn't great.
Some organic farmers make really good money - see The Urban Farmer for an example. Curtis is making $100,000 on 1/3 acre. He's possibly the exception to the rule though. Everyone in the country eats 3x a day, don't forget, so there is money in it, for sure. I just can't seem to crack the code.I'd never heard of him, just googled him and found the course Profitable Urban Farmer (http://profitableurbanfarming.com/about-the-course/) - I assume you've heard of it too? Is the $100K after expenses & COGS? I mostly know CSA farmers and boutique farm-to-table farmers, and they live well and simply and make good money overall, but after expenses, they are not pulling in 6 figures or even $50,000.
I'd never heard of him, just googled him and found the course Profitable Urban Farmer (http://profitableurbanfarming.com/about-the-course/) - I assume you've heard of it too? Is the $100K after expenses & COGS? I mostly know CSA farmers and boutique farm-to-table farmers, and they live well and simply and make good money overall, but after expenses, they are not pulling in 6 figures or even $50,000.
You do not save literally 500k at 20k/yr, one year at a time. The market doubles the starting balance roughly every 10 years (counting inflation). At 40k, if you enjoy that job and you decide to prioritize it higher than money, you could retire early by living well.
If you prioritize big-money work instead, or temporarily prioritize big-money work, you could save 100-200k over 5-10 years and have retiring covered down the road, then go back to farming if that's your thing. I'm planning to save about 200k (167k + pension), then quit the rat race for dream jobs.
You do not save literally 500k at 20k/yr, one year at a time. The market doubles the starting balance roughly every 10 years (counting inflation). At 40k, if you enjoy that job and you decide to prioritize it higher than money, you could retire early by living well.
If you prioritize big-money work instead, or temporarily prioritize big-money work, you could save 100-200k over 5-10 years and have retiring covered down the road, then go back to farming if that's your thing. I'm planning to save about 200k (167k + pension), then quit the rat race for dream jobs.
Can you elaborate? Or does MMM have an article on this? This is all new to me. I came over from the Tim Ferris podcast just this week.
You do not save literally 500k at 20k/yr, one year at a time. The market doubles the starting balance roughly every 10 years (counting inflation). At 40k, if you enjoy that job and you decide to prioritize it higher than money, you could retire early by living well.
If you prioritize big-money work instead, or temporarily prioritize big-money work, you could save 100-200k over 5-10 years and have retiring covered down the road, then go back to farming if that's your thing. I'm planning to save about 200k (167k + pension), then quit the rat race for dream jobs.
Can you elaborate? Or does MMM have an article on this? This is all new to me. I came over from the Tim Ferris podcast just this week.
What is your source of income now?
I'm working with a small farm-to-table farm/restaurant group north of NYC. I make $2000/month, but have housing provided and, of course, my food costs are pretty low.
Sure, you could make more by changing what you're doing, but also, what are you doing with all this money?
Yea is this pre-or-post tax $2000? Because that strongly points to you having big financial leaks if you're not able to pay down your debt & save on that kind of income. Your income side of the equation is important, but the expense side is important as well if you don't know where 2 grand a month is going.What is your source of income now?
I'm working with a small farm-to-table farm/restaurant group north of NYC. I make $2000/month, but have housing provided and, of course, my food costs are pretty low.
$2k a month and no housing costs? Where is this money going? I feed and house my whole family for $2k a month, so this amount for a single person with no housing expenses seems very high to me.
Sure, you could make more by changing what you're doing, but also, what are you doing with all this money?
Yea is this pre-or-post tax $2000? Because that strongly points to you having big financial leaks if you're not able to pay down your debt & save on that kind of income. Your income side of the equation is important, but the expense side is important as well if you don't know where 2 grand a month is going.[/quote]
This board loves to see:
- Your budget
- Your debt payoff timeline
Interested in working that out because we can help more if so. Are you tracking your spending now? You should be able to crush those credit cards in MONTHS instead of a whole year from now.
QuoteYea is this pre-or-post tax $2000? Because that strongly points to you having big financial leaks if you're not able to pay down your debt & save on that kind of income. Your income side of the equation is important, but the expense side is important as well if you don't know where 2 grand a month is going.
This board loves to see:
- Your budget
- Your debt payoff timeline
Interested in working that out because we can help more if so. Are you tracking your spending now? You should be able to crush those credit cards in MONTHS instead of a whole year from now.
Okay. Should I just add an attachment? Or type it in the dialogue box?
I have a coherent resume, but it leans heavily towards horticulture/botony/farming
This board loves to see:
- Your budget
- Your debt payoff timeline
Interested in working that out because we can help more if so. Are you tracking your spending now? You should be able to crush those credit cards in MONTHS instead of a whole year from now.
This is probably easier. Yea, when I sat down and really added everything up, it's quite a bit worse than I made it seem.
Mr. Money Mustache Info
Topic: Save me from financial quagmire (and/or hire me!).
Life Situation: Single, no dependents.
Gross income: $24,000
Individual of pre-tax deductions: ? No taxes taken out.
Other ordinary income: +/- $5k/year
Qualified Dividends: 0
Rental income: 0
AGI: $24k-$29k
Taxes: IDK - $3600ish from the 24K income
Current Expenses:
- ACCC (American Consumer Credit Counselling): $225/month
- Bank of America CC: $70/month
- Paypal: $50/month
- Citibank: $50/month
- Discover: $100/month
- Federal: Deferment
- Debt to Parents: $50/month (needs to increase, clearly)
- Phone: $45/month
- Healthcare: $125/month
- Food: $200/month
- Rent: $0/month
- Gas: $50/month
- Savings: $25/month
- Taxes: $300/month @ 15% self-employment tax @24k/year
- = $1290
Expected ER expenses: ?
Assets: Some FANCY outdoor gear!
- Car: $500
- Organs?
Liabilities:
-ACCC: $3978 (Final payoff, includes all interest).
- BOA: $4468.94 (4%)
- Paypal: $394.98 (18%)
- Citibank: $3315.47 (3.87%)
- Discover: $9391.94 (%5)
- Federal: $19,000ish… (?? I think 3%)
- Debt to parents: $17,000 (0%)
- $57,546
Specific Questions:
- See first post
Are there expenses missing? For example I don't see anything for car maint, gasoline, or car insur. Are your utilities also included in your package? If these expenses are accurate on a month-to-month basis, then you do have some money to work with - and I would pay off PayPal immediately, then work on the ACCC (assuming no penalties for early payoff).
On the income side, you'll need to decide if you're going to either
A) continue what you're doing and commit to a side hustle
B) change careers
Once you make a decision, we can help you brainstorm ideas.
No offense, but I wouldn't spend much time on a business plan until you can prove that you can manage money - you'd be hard pressed to find someone to take a risk on you given the state you're in.... no matter how awesome your business plan is.
So, this is great because you're taking the first step towards understanding what your debt looks like. It appears you have more than you initially said- you said you had $5,000 CC debt in the first post, but in reality you have $16,900 in credit card debt when you add it all together. Those interests rates, however, are low for a CC - when do those 3% and 5% interest rates run out?
I would agree around the business plan. Business plans are for folks that are finance-able. You are not right now. My employers have a $250,000 annual gross revenue company that's been around for 5 years, and we're still not eligible for financing because of $20,000 of student loan debt from one of the owners. A business plan can be a good tool for wrapping your head around what your plan is, but it's mainly for getting financing. Don't get too caught up in the planning stage when you need to be in the DEBT ATTACK stage.
I added $50/month for gas. I'm on an insurance plan with some family members, and they just cover the cost, which is helpful. I also put $25 in savings a month. Is that pretty much useless at this point?I'd recommend a small emergency fund of one-month's expenses (which looks to be about $1K). Everything above that should go to attacking your debt. You are in debt emergency mode, (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/18/news-flash-your-debt-is-an-emergency/)with 90% of your earnings going to repaying debt.
Just want to reiterate that if you are *actually* interested in a Ph.D. in Botany, and have the qualifications to get into a good program, you should expect that 1)tuition would be free, and 2) you would get a stipend. Stipends vary wildly, but at my school (a private research institution), it would be about equivalent to your current salary+benefits (ie, salary plus the value of your free rent).
I'm not a scientist, and I do not know what the job prospects are for people with Ph.D.s in Botany. Getting the degree would be a big commitment of time and energy, which might be better spent elsewhere from a purely financial perspective. I mostly wanted to emphasize that under no circumstances should you pay money for a Ph.D. program in the sciences.
But you are making fine money for a single person with no housing expenses. Making money is going fine for you - you're even in your chosen field! You just have built up a lot of debt.
Here's the info. Fire away.A couple questions for clarity. First, where is the remaining $785 a month going? You list $1,215 in expenses per month and have $2,000 in earnings. Is it going toward debt pay off or are you only paying the minimums at this time? Second, what is the interest rate of your federal loan and when does your deferment period end? Specifics are important in coming up with a pay off plan. It shouldn't take too long to look this up online at your loan service's website.
Side note. Despite the mistakes I've made, I still contend that the snowball effect really started and was basically out of control long before I added to it. Understand that a good portion of the money I owe my parents was related to university expenses. And then, I had so much debt when I got out of school, with an idiotic, useless degree, that I somehow thought, "what's another couple thousand in credit cards...I'll get a great job soon!" Never happened. Graduated in 2008, the economy crashed in early 2009, and it's been pretty much shitty since then. Trust me, I've spent thousands of hours looking for work, updating my resume, networking, etc. The economy has gotten tougher all around. I have lots of friends in the same boat - some worse. Jesus, my friends who went the grad school route may never pay off their debt!
I just find it a bit irritating and smug for MMM to make statements like, "Making money is easy." Even if you have a wave of responsibility and minimalism that sweeps through the country, (here comes some sociology...!) technology is basically replacing the middle class. See Jaron Lanier and others on this. I basically believe we are headed for some apocalyptic scenario with work in the next 10-20 years. Sam Harris and others are contending we need a universal income VERY soon, it's getting so bad. Maybe they are wrong, but I think they likely aren't.
This is not an excuse for my debt/situation. It's more a rebuttal to the idea that, "making money is easy."
....
I just find it a bit irritating and smug for MMM to make statements like, "Making money is easy." Even if you have a wave of responsibility and minimalism that sweeps through the country, (here comes some sociology...!) technology is basically replacing the middle class. See Jaron Lanier and others on this. I basically believe we are headed for some apocalyptic scenario with work in the next 10-20 years. Sam Harris and others are contending we need a universal income VERY soon, it's getting so bad. Maybe they are wrong, but I think they likely aren't.
This is not an excuse for my debt/situation. It's more a rebuttal to the idea that, "making money is easy."
....
I just find it a bit irritating and smug for MMM to make statements like, "Making money is easy." Even if you have a wave of responsibility and minimalism that sweeps through the country, (here comes some sociology...!) technology is basically replacing the middle class. See Jaron Lanier and others on this. I basically believe we are headed for some apocalyptic scenario with work in the next 10-20 years. Sam Harris and others are contending we need a universal income VERY soon, it's getting so bad. Maybe they are wrong, but I think they likely aren't.
This is not an excuse for my debt/situation. It's more a rebuttal to the idea that, "making money is easy."
You find it irritating but I don't see how you have been actually trying to make money... you don't want responsibility, you don't want a boring job... you want a fun job and the fun you like doesn't come with enough money.
There's also the Frugalwoods way of paying for grad school:
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/08/26/that-time-i-went-to-grad-school-for-free/
20K living expenses for a broke young single guy is pretty high. Aim for 12-15k per yr, tops.
.............the best I could hope for would be to get a job that pays $40,000 in these fields, unless I'd go back and get a PhD in Botany, and teach, then I'd be looking at more debt, and still, the money isn't great.
I'm not necessarily hell bent on retirement, but I can clearly see the path ahead: With $40,000 annual salary jobs, even living like GHANDI, I won't be even remotely close to FIRE until I'm 70. Case in point: If I live off of $20,000 a year. I need $500,000 to get to that 25x annual spending #. That will take me 25 years. That assumes nothing f-ed up happens, like I get sick and have absurd medical bills, have kids, etc.
What am I missing?
20K living expenses for a broke young single guy is pretty high. Aim for 12-15k per yr, tops.
.............the best I could hope for would be to get a job that pays $40,000 in these fields, unless I'd go back and get a PhD in Botany, and teach, then I'd be looking at more debt, and still, the money isn't great.
I'm not necessarily hell bent on retirement, but I can clearly see the path ahead: With $40,000 annual salary jobs, even living like GHANDI, I won't be even remotely close to FIRE until I'm 70. Case in point: If I live off of $20,000 a year. I need $500,000 to get to that 25x annual spending #. That will take me 25 years. That assumes nothing f-ed up happens, like I get sick and have absurd medical bills, have kids, etc.
What am I missing?
I'm about your age, averaged 31-38K/yr pre tax these last three yrs and still saved 10-12K per year post-tax through frugal choices.
20K living expenses for a broke young single guy is pretty high. Aim for 12-15k per yr, tops.
.............the best I could hope for would be to get a job that pays $40,000 in these fields, unless I'd go back and get a PhD in Botany, and teach, then I'd be looking at more debt, and still, the money isn't great.
I'm not necessarily hell bent on retirement, but I can clearly see the path ahead: With $40,000 annual salary jobs, even living like GHANDI, I won't be even remotely close to FIRE until I'm 70. Case in point: If I live off of $20,000 a year. I need $500,000 to get to that 25x annual spending #. That will take me 25 years. That assumes nothing f-ed up happens, like I get sick and have absurd medical bills, have kids, etc.
What am I missing?
I'm about your age, averaged 31-38K/yr pre tax these last three yrs and still saved 10-12K per year post-tax through frugal choices.
Baby steps guys...... Also this is not early retirement extreme. This is MMM, living off 20k a year as a single guy is pretty damn good. Could he do better? Sure, but he is just getting started. I am not picking on you specifically noll, but I feel so often these new guys trying to get their finances together get discouraged by you MMM badasses!
So back to the OP. Cutting expenses is going to be a part of it but I think most of us would agree focusing on leveraging your strengths into a career that pays with benefits like 401k matching, and health insurance is a good start. Finding a job you love, and pays well is pretty much a unicorn. The best bet as most here will attest to is finding a job you can tolerate and kick its ass for 10 years until FIRE or at least FU money. Often you start off doing something pretty terrible but you realize in said organization you can in fact work your way towards another position that not only pays better, is something you almost enjoy doing. Every job I had I liked much more than the one before!
So porter what are you going to do? What new job are you looking for this week? What side hustle are you researching right now?
*FU money: having enough money to tell your job to fuck off at any point. You have enough money to live for a year or two and it not really be much of an issue financially.
I'm telling you, apply at Wegmans. Health insurance even for part-time employees and a variety of cooking/produce related career paths.
Don't borrow money. Use birth control. Don't develop expensive habits. Have an emergency fund. Brush and floss regularly, and get a flu shot.
The whole idea of 'doing what you love' is pretty misguided, IME. Do what you can tolerate reasonably well and which brings you the most money.
....
I just find it a bit irritating and smug for MMM to make statements like, "Making money is easy." Even if you have a wave of responsibility and minimalism that sweeps through the country, (here comes some sociology...!) technology is basically replacing the middle class. See Jaron Lanier and others on this. I basically believe we are headed for some apocalyptic scenario with work in the next 10-20 years. Sam Harris and others are contending we need a universal income VERY soon, it's getting so bad. Maybe they are wrong, but I think they likely aren't.
This is not an excuse for my debt/situation. It's more a rebuttal to the idea that, "making money is easy."
You find it irritating but I don't see how you have been actually trying to make money... you don't want responsibility, you don't want a boring job... you want a fun job and the fun you like doesn't come with enough money.
Agreed, making money is easy. In most cases it just isn't fun, low stress or enjoyable.
And then, I had so much debt when I got out of school, with an idiotic, useless degree
You do make a good salary, especially with free housing!
Digging out of debt is just painful. Hopefully painful enough that you never get into debt again.
I would just say: if you find it painful enough, you will find ways to either cut expenses, or get a side job to throw more cash at it. If you like your job, stay there. If you want to make more, i may entail working a job that is just a job, that brings money but not happiness. That is ok- but own the trade-off.
One of the harshest lessons I have learned is that life isn't really about being happy and finding fulfillment. It's about responsibilities and duties and doing what needs to be done to be successful. If you can find a little happiness here and there, that's all well and good -- self-care is important -- but it can't be your ultimate goal, because you will always end up feeling miserable for failing to achieve it.
What is happiness anyway? I think Denis Leary said that it's eating a cookie or having sex. It's a momentary pop of brain chemicals that fades as quickly as it arrives.
While I was growing up, I received some bad advice from teachers and that advice was "Figure out what you enjoy doing and then find a way to do that for a living for the rest of your life." Much better advice is "Figure out what you enjoy doing and then find a way to do that on nights and weekends for the rest of your life while you work a less interesting yet financially advantageous day job."
The posters who said you can't make a living at art are incorrect. It does take commitment and hard work, like every other good job. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
The posters who said you can't make a living at art are incorrect. It does take commitment and hard work, like every other good job. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
That's unrealistic at best and dishonest at worst. Yes, there exist artists who make a living at art. It takes a mountain of hard work to even get the ball rolling, then a lucky break or an exceedingly well developed network of followers, overwhelmingly unlike many other potentially well-paying jobs. The people who make more than "get by" money at art are exceedingly rare proportionate to the population of people who want to be artists for a living, overwhelmingly unlike most other potentially well-paying jobs. The artists who try and fail for a number of different reasons (INCLUDING luck) probably outnumber the failed ranks in every other profession if we don't count teenagers in retail.
In short, to put it in reverse, our society is not overwhelmingly concerned with paying for art, and the pressure on an artist to produce is enormous, lest the 1000 artists dreaming of a paying job behind him/her take the job instead.
I know an artist/writer who published two books, takes commissions, develops networks for herself and friends in her network to mutliply those networks (thousands of followers), does the Patreon/artblog/tumblr/promoforum/webcomic/etc thing, and makes enough to get by only because she's still living with her parents. I have never met the MBA in that situation. I have never even heard of the MBA in that situation.
And that SUCKS. But let's not pretend it isn't real.
The posters who said you can't make a living at art are incorrect. It does take commitment and hard work, like every other good job. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
That's unrealistic at best and dishonest at worst. Yes, there exist artists who make a living at art. It takes a mountain of hard work to even get the ball rolling, then a lucky break or an exceedingly well developed network of followers, overwhelmingly unlike many other potentially well-paying jobs. The people who make more than "get by" money at art are exceedingly rare proportionate to the population of people who want to be artists for a living, overwhelmingly unlike most other potentially well-paying jobs. The artists who try and fail for a number of different reasons (INCLUDING luck) probably outnumber the failed ranks in every other profession if we don't count teenagers in retail.
In short, to put it in reverse, our society is not overwhelmingly concerned with paying for art, and the pressure on an artist to produce is enormous, lest the 1000 artists dreaming of a paying job behind him/her take the job instead.
I know an artist/writer who published two books, takes commissions, develops networks for herself and friends in her network to mutliply those networks (thousands of followers), does the Patreon/artblog/tumblr/promoforum/webcomic/etc thing, and makes enough to get by only because she's still living with her parents. I have never met the MBA in that situation. I have never even heard of the MBA in that situation.
And that SUCKS. But let's not pretend it isn't real.
Hargrove: "making a living as a working artist" is not an impossible, unrealistic idea... And lots of artists are bad at (c)... If you don't want to think about these things, don't try and make a living as an artist. It's TOTALLY FINE for art to just be a hobby. It doesn't make you a lesser person.
(Mara): Hargrove, I still think you are mistaken.
A sad part of the business, which may be what is influencing your opinion, is that unqualified people think they will get work as graphic designers and will be surprised when they don't. I know whereof I speak because I own a graphic design firm.
I have reviewed many, many resumes and interviewed many applicants. It was amazing how many people could not meet the minimum job requirements, such as experience with page layout software. Part of the problem is that many graphic design schools teach art theory but not how to use the everyday software designers need to use. This is fact.
Same with fine art. It's highly unlikely that a person with minimal skills and without a consistent body of good work will get into galleries. The funny thing is, I never took a course in graphic design in school, but I did study fine art and later worked hard to learn graphic design software on the job and independently. The really good thing about graphic design is that your skills, portfolio, and work ethic are the only things that do count. The ones who lie may get a foot in the door, but they don't last.
Hargrove: "making a living as a working artist" is not an impossible, unrealistic idea. But what it doesn't look like is poncing around a studio painting your inner child and then having people pay you for it. I think theatre (all theatre, not just acting) is harder to make a living at because the product relies on the artists and audience all being in the same place at the same time for a single live experience. That's expensive and there's no up sell or introductory purchase. But music or painting - sure you can make a living. IF you are willing to: a) work hard; b) hustle; c) be businesslike about it.
Lots of artists are on board with (a). But when it comes to (b) you can't wait around for some fairy godmother gallery owner to bless you with their patronage. And you can't ponce around with a paintbrush all day. You need to get out there and seek out opportunities. Teach classes, apply for residencies, apply for public or commercial art commissions, paint pet portraits, take a stall at an art fair, print postcards.
And lots of artists are bad at (c). If you want to make a living from art, art needs to be a business. Is it more valuable for you to spend four hours painting a mural in a child's bedroom for £150 or applying for a residency that would get you £3000 IF you got it? Do watercolours or oils sell better? Is it better to make 10 more expensive limited edition prints or 30 cheaper ones? Can you break into the lucrative wedding market?
If you don't want to think about these things, don't try and make a living as an artist. It's TOTALLY FINE for art to just be a hobby. It doesn't make you a lesser person.
QuoteI don't understand why you won't acknowledge competition is an extremely wide group in art. It seems a simple step to acknowledge from there that it's unusually hard to do what you're saying vs a different field. I believe you're a successful artist. I am not sure why you think it's just as accessible as the average job.
Thank you for sharing more of your perspective. I can understand your point of view better. I don't know if the art jobs are less accessible, maybe because I am often surrounded by hard-working artists. I was responding to your statement that it is impossible for an artist to get a good job and I reacted when when you said, "That's unrealistic at best and dishonest at worst."
It seems to me that all jobs are hard in one way or another. I have little aptitude for anything that might get me into school for, or a job in, the STEM fields. Art and music came more easily. It sounds like you have both right-and left-brain talents, which is wonderful. I hope you can pursue your writing as well as your higher paying job.
The problem with what you're talking about is not as simple as "get the right credentials," however, because you can't separate the fakes from the real ones unless you have a test or hire them first.
QuoteThe problem with what you're talking about is not as simple as "get the right credentials," however, because you can't separate the fakes from the real ones unless you have a test or hire them first.
Software is king. Testing candidates via a battery of software and coding challenges even before a phone interview is increasingly common. If this practice hasn't spread to corporate graphic design/art yet, it soon will.
Thank you for sharing more of your perspective. I can understand your point of view better. I don't know if the art jobs are less accessible, maybe because I am often surrounded by hard-working artists. I was responding to your statement that it is impossible for an artist to get a good job and I reacted when when you said, "That's unrealistic at best and dishonest at worst."
It seems to me that all jobs are hard in one way or another. I have little aptitude for anything that might get me into school for, or a job in, the STEM fields. Art and music came more easily. It sounds like you have both right-and left-brain talents, which is wonderful. I hope you can pursue your writing as well as your higher paying job.