Author Topic: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?  (Read 17381 times)

seattlecyclone

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Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« on: November 20, 2013, 02:27:56 PM »
The conventional wisdom seems to be that people with a higher net worth need to buy more liability insurance on their auto policy, homeowners policy, for their business, an "umbrella" policy, etc. The reasoning given is that people with a high net worth "have more assets to protect," so they should opt for a higher amount of coverage. I've even seen advice that you should buy an umbrella policy that matches your net worth essentially dollar for dollar.

I agree that it makes sense in many cases to have reasonable amounts of liability insurance. Courts have been known to award damages in excess of $1 million to plaintiffs who have been seriously injured in car crashes, slipping on the sidewalk in front of someone's house, or plenty of other circumstances. I'm just curious where the logic comes from that says you should increase your coverage as your assets grow.

My understanding of the process is that if you are sued and lose, any liability insurance you have will pay out up to the coverage limit, and you're responsible for the rest if the verdict says you're liable for more than the insurance limit. The amount of damages awarded should theoretically be determined only by the nature of the victim's injury, and should not be in any way influenced by the quantity of insurance you bought or how much money you have available to pay any court-ordered damages. After the verdict comes down, if you don't have enough money to pay what you owe, you may have to go through bankruptcy and the victim will get most of your assets, but they will not end up collecting as much as the court ordered. Am I wrong about the general process here?

Back to the question of how much insurance to buy...

Suppose you have two people: Mr. A has a $1 million net worth and Ms. B has a $2 million net worth. Each of these people carries a $500,000 liability policy on their auto insurance when they get into a crash that kills the driver of the other car. In each case, the court awards $2 million in damages to compensate the victims' families. In each case, the insurance pays the first $500,000 of damages, leaving $1.5 million left for the defendants to cover. Mr. A doesn't have $1.5 million, so he goes bankrupt and is left with nothing. Ms. B, on the other hand, has $2 million, so she pays the defendant $1.5 million and is left with $500,000 in assets after all is said and done.

Obviously Mr. A and Ms. B would both have benefited from a higher liability limit on their policies in this case, but it seems like Mr. A was left worse off by the judgement than Ms. B was. So why then does the conventional wisdom say Ms. B should carry a higher amount of liability insurance than Mr. A? She does have more assets to protect, but those assets also help to make any lawsuit less likely to cause bankruptcy, even if there was no liability insurance at all.

It seems to me that no matter how much insurance you have, there's always a possibility that you could be found liable in a lawsuit for a higher amount than that. Someone with a small (or negative) net worth would have less need for liability insurance beyond any legally required minimums because they would be unable to pay any meaningful amount to the victim and would have to declare bankruptcy whatever the amount of the judgement was. Someone who has managed to save up some assets, on the other hand, has plenty of reason to insure themselves to protect what they have. But again, it seems to me that the more assets you have, the more able you are to weather the storm of any lawsuit, so if anything you should buy less liability insurance.

Am I missing something here, or is the conventional wisdom wrong?

msilenus

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 02:52:09 PM »
You don't seem to be aware of umbrella policies, which can vastly increase your liability coverage for a reasonable premium.  Couple hundred bucks per year for the first million in additional liability coverage.  Goes down from there.

You can always be sued for more than you have coverage for, but the more liability coverage you have, the less likely that is, and the more incentive your insurance company has to fight to the death on your shared behalf.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 03:01:30 PM »
I am aware of umbrella policies and am also aware that they don't cost very much, all things considered.

The question remains: why would it be a good idea for Ms. B with $2 million in net worth to buy more liability insurance than Mr. A with $1 million in net worth? If they have the same amount of coverage, a verdict for $1 million over the insurance limit would wipe Mr. A out, but only cost Ms. B half of her savings.

msilenus

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 03:09:20 PM »
Say Ms. B buys a $10m umbrella policy to protect her $2m in net worth.  She and Mr. A then both get sued.  Ms. B gets successfully sued for $11m, and Mr. A for $2m.

Your position rests on this being an apples-to-apples comparison.  It's not.  Ms. B did something a fuckton worse than Mr. A to wind up this situation.  Let's say instead that Ms. B did what Mr. A did to get sued.  She'd be fine.  Not 50% wiped out --0%.

There are a lot more ways to get a $2m judgment against you than $10m.

JohnGalt

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 03:24:46 PM »
If you get slapped with punitive damages, I'm pretty sure that they can take your net worth into account.

A quick google search brought up the Mississippi code - see section (3)

http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/11/001/0065.htm

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 03:27:15 PM »
I'm not sure you understand my question, msilenus. I'll try to rephrase my question one more time.

The conventional wisdom says that Mr. A should get a $1 million umbrella policy and Ms. B should get a $2 million umbrella policy, because Mr. A has $1 million and Ms. B has $2 million.

Suppose they follow this conventional wisdom. If Ms. B has a $2 million judgement, she'll pay nothing because she was covered for $2 million. If Mr. A has a $2 million judgement, he'll lose everything because he was only covered for $1 million and the remaining $1 million that wasn't covered happens to be all he has.

So again, why does the conventional wisdom say that Mr. A should buy less coverage than Ms. B? If they both follow expert advice on how much coverage to buy, and then both get sued for the same amount, Mr. A will lose everything but Ms. B will lose nothing. How does this make sense for Mr. A? Why would experts advise him to buy less coverage than Ms. B if they're equally likely to get sued for the same amounts?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 03:30:36 PM by seattlecyclone »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 03:35:33 PM »
If you get slapped with punitive damages, I'm pretty sure that they can take your net worth into account.

A quick google search brought up the Mississippi code - see section (3)

http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/11/001/0065.htm

Punitive damages are an interesting thought. I guess I mostly ignore them as a possibility because I feel that I am generally not a malicious person and would only hurt someone accidentally. Given that, it should be extremely difficult for an attorney to prove that I acted otherwise. Even if they did, Mississippi caps punitive damages at 2% of your net worth (if you're under $50 million). That won't wipe anyone out. It's the compensatory damages that are limited only to the extent of the actual injury. These are what most people should be worried about.

msilenus

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 03:50:26 PM »
Okay, I understand your question.  I think it's clearly true that the higher your NW, the more insurance you need.  That doesn't mean that the rule of thumb is correct, and I can't defend it.

I don't think punitive damages are the answer.  They're super rare.  Even when malice exists, it can be hard to prove.

Personally, I suspect that if you have enough to be worried about losing, your zip code should matter more than your exact net worth.  That outlines the earning power of the people you're most likely to maim.  So you could look at maybe the 75th or 90th percentile earning power in your area, look at what wrongful death suits pay for people like your neighbors, and size your coverage that way.

Note that a correlation also exists between zip code and net worth.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 03:57:13 PM »
Okay, I understand your question.  I think it's clearly true that the higher your NW, the more insurance you need.

Why is it clearly true??? If Mr. A has less insurance coverage than Ms. B, even by one dollar, he will end up paying more dollars out of his pocket to satisfy any judgement. And he has the double whammy of having fewer dollars to spare, so each dollar he pays a plaintiff impacts his net worth more on a percentage basis.

I like your rule of thumb about basing your coverage on how much your neighbors would be likely to win in a judgement. I think that makes a whole lot more sense. Would you still recommend someone with a higher net worth buy more insurance than someone with a lower net worth in the same neighborhood? If so, why? I'm really curious about an explanation here.

msilenus

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2013, 04:05:17 PM »
Everyone has a certain amount of free insurance in the form of bankruptcy protection.  You can view your net worth as the deductible and out of pocket max on that policy.  As your net worth gets higher, your free coverage gets worse, and it makes more sense to supplement.  That sliding scale relating NW to need for supplement implies the existence of some relationship between coverage and net worth, even if it doesn't give much insight into what it might be.

Your neighbors outline the most likely ways you can get into a law suit.  That's important (I think) but it's certainly not the whole story.  You can get sued in other ways, great and small.

huadpe

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2013, 04:16:52 PM »
Keep in mind that getting sued is non-random.  If you have a high net worth that the plaintiff knows about, they're much more likely to sue than if they think you're broke.  And when they do sue, it's likely to be for much more money.

If you have a $10 million net worth, you have a target on your back.  Sometimes it will be excessive claims on legitimate damages.  Sometimes it will be out and out fraudulent claims (i.e. the kind of people who go into supermarkets, spritz water on the floor, then slip and fall on that water). 

Further, if you have a really big liability policy, it often means better protection in getting an attorney and vigorous via your insurance company.  If you have a $5 million umbrella policy, there is almost no circumstance where your insurer will just settle for the policy max and leave you holding the bag for the rest.  If you're just depending on 50k in auto insurance and you cause a major wreck, you're gonna need to get your own lawyer to defend yourself, since the insurer will just cut a cheque for $50k and be done with it.

the fixer

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2013, 04:22:57 PM »
I think this is a good question. Maybe it's something like this:

Let's suppose Ms. B has $2M in net worth and Mr. A has $1M, they both are found liable for the same harm in civil court, but this time suppose both have the same liability limits of $1M. From the plaintiff's attorney's perspective, the most damages she can possibly get out of Mr. A is $2M ($1M policy plus $1M net worth), or 200% of the limits of the liability policy. But the plaintiff's attorney suing Ms. B has the potential to recover $3M ($1M policy plus $2M net worth), of 300% of the limits of the liability policy. The attorney suing Ms. B therefore has greater financial incentive to find her liable for higher damages than the policy will cover, and so he may spend extra time/money to make his case (calling better expert witnesses, prep the plaintiff to testify on all the "pain and suffering," doing more discovery, being a bigger pain in the ass during settlement negotiations...).

If you buy that argument, then the advice is not to buy liability protection to match your assets; it would instead be to buy as much as you can afford so your policy looks more attractive to the lawyers than your assets. This is balanced by the reduced likelihood of being faced with ever larger legal claims.

Another consideration for Mustachians is how much of your assets you truly need to have protected. Would you be okay if a court took away your rental properties, but left you with other investments? The conventional advice probably assumes that everyone is one unexpected $1000 payment away from BK, so all assets must be protected.

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2013, 04:38:20 PM »
Suppose you have two people: Mr. A has a $1 million net worth and Ms. B has a $2 million net worth. Each of these people carries a $500,000 liability policy on their auto insurance when they get into a crash that kills the driver of the other car. In each case, the court awards $2 million in damages to compensate the victims' families. In each case, the insurance pays the first $500,000 of damages, leaving $1.5 million left for the defendants to cover. Mr. A doesn't have $1.5 million, so he goes bankrupt and is left with nothing. Ms. B, on the other hand, has $2 million, so she pays the defendant $1.5 million and is left with $500,000 in assets after all is said and done.

Obviously Mr. A and Ms. B would both have benefited from a higher liability limit on their policies in this case, but it seems like Mr. A was left worse off by the judgement than Ms. B was. So why then does the conventional wisdom say Ms. B should carry a higher amount of liability insurance than Mr. A? She does have more assets to protect, but those assets also help to make any lawsuit less likely to cause bankruptcy, even if there was no liability insurance at all.

It seems to me that no matter how much insurance you have, there's always a possibility that you could be found liable in a lawsuit for a higher amount than that. Someone with a small (or negative) net worth would have less need for liability insurance beyond any legally required minimums because they would be unable to pay any meaningful amount to the victim and would have to declare bankruptcy whatever the amount of the judgement was. Someone who has managed to save up some assets, on the other hand, has plenty of reason to insure themselves to protect what they have. But again, it seems to me that the more assets you have, the more able you are to weather the storm of any lawsuit, so if anything you should buy less liability insurance.

Am I missing something here, or is the conventional wisdom wrong?

I guess I don't follow the conventional wisdom either for exactly the reason you outline. Its even more pronounced when your example people follow the conventional wisdom and insure up to their net worth:

Mr. A insures for up to 1 million, gets sued for 2 million and walks away with nothing.
Mrs. B insures for 2 million, gets sued for 2 million and walks away scott free.

So I see it more as your 2 options should be 1.) insure for the highest amount you can afford and feel the possibility of ever needing (based on you zip code or whatever), or 2.) Insure the minimums and just go bankrupt whenever you are sued. If those are your 2 options, and given that insurance becomes less expensive the more you get, then going with option 1 leads to a happier, more stable life.

So really its that as your net worth goes higher, you aren't buying more insurance to protect your net worth, you simply become able to afford more and thus move more into option 1.

StarryC

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2013, 05:31:05 PM »
 I'd bet quite a lot that all of your auto, homeowners, and even umbrella policies exclude payment of punitive damages. 

However, in my state, DUII or being intoxicated is basically guaranteed to mean the Plaintiff could get punitive damages.  Unless you are never intoxicated, there is a chance you could have punitive damages awarded against you.  The standard of "malice" isn't really "malice" it is doing something with a "knowing disregard of the safety of others." Driving at high speeds or taking your Rottweiler to the park could qualify.  And, most cases settle, so even if you are 100% certain you would NEVER do anything with the intent to harm or a knowing disregard for the safety of others, if the Plaintiff can allege it that increases the value of the settlement because it increases the potential judgment.

I think one reason is the diminishing happiness returns of more money and the fact that humans are more loss averse in large chunks.  Most people would prefer to pay $10 a month than $100 right now.  Also as you get close to having $1 million, or even $500,000 in wealth, the cost of the insurance is very small relative to your wealth, buys you a degree of comfort and security, and the $1 millionth dollar of possessions/ entertainment (as opposed to insurance) doesn't buy you as much pleasure as the first.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »
I think one reason is the diminishing happiness returns of more money and the fact that humans are more loss averse in large chunks.  Most people would prefer to pay $10 a month than $100 right now.  Also as you get close to having $1 million, or even $500,000 in wealth, the cost of the insurance is very small relative to your wealth, buys you a degree of comfort and security, and the $1 millionth dollar of possessions/ entertainment (as opposed to insurance) doesn't buy you as much pleasure as the first.

I'm not trying to argue against liability insurance in general. In fact I think it's a perfect thing to buy insurance for, since a million dollar judgement is something that is possible, unlikely, and expensive all at the same time. I'm just trying to uncover what logical reason there would be for someone with a fairly high net worth to buy less coverage than the person next door with twice the net worth. So far I do see some merit in huadpe's argument that an opposing counsel might work harder for a better settlement if they have a reason to believe your net worth plus insurance amount is higher, since they stand to get more money out of the deal, and also that your insurance company will work hard on your behalf if and only if they think they can negotiate a settlement that's under your policy limit.

Even so, I remain unconvinced by the idea that your coverage should in all cases equal your net worth, or even have a very strong relationship at all with your net worth. If your net worth is $1 million but a $10 million judgement is a likely outcome in the event you get sued, then you should probably have $10 million of coverage. At the same time, if you have $10 million but don't own a home or a car, you might opt for a lower amount of insurance since there just aren't that many ways left to incur that much liability.

But "insurance amount = net worth" is something that a lot of insurance companies are even arguing for. Geico's website, for example, says this about it:
Quote
You can take out an umbrella policy with coverage limits of $1 million to $10 million. Can't imagine that you would need that much coverage? You might be surprised. Follow these three quick steps to get an idea of how big an umbrella you may need:

Step 1: Add up your assets (including the worth of your home*, money in the bank, stocks, bonds, 401(k) funds and other retirement savings, and other assets—maybe you have a collection of rare lunchboxes?).

Step 2: See how much liability coverage you have on your homeowners, auto, and boat policies.

Step 3: Determine if your current liability policies cover your assets.

If you don't have protection that exceeds your assets, you owe it to yourself to consider a personal umbrella policy. For an affordable premium, you can protect yourself against a financial tsunami.

USAA says:
Quote
No precise formula can calculate for you the exact amount of liability insurance you need. As with all insurance decisions, the amount of insurance that is right for you depends greatly on your individual risk tolerance. And, keep in mind that no one can predict how much you would be required to pay if you were involved in an accident that injured another. But, the more you have to lose, the more liability coverage you will want to purchase.
Net worth is often used as a starting point in determining how much Umbrella or other liability coverage may be desired. To determine your net worth, add the value of everything you own, including your home, investments, bank accounts, and retirement accounts. Subtract from that amount any liabilities or debts you currently have. The resulting number is your net worth — and the total amount of liability coverage (including Umbrella limits) you may want to purchase.
Additionally, you should consider your current and expected income. The higher your current or expected income, the higher limits you may desire.

The message from the insurance companies is pretty clear on this point. Your coverage should at least equal your assets. Are they trying to get people to believe that the policy is something that it's not -- that if you buy a $1 million umbrella policy, you're guaranteed to keep at least $1 million no matter the result of any lawsuit? Because for the life of me I can't think of any other good explanation for recommending that the coverage amount should follow your net worth so closely.

LRS

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 06:19:23 PM »
To the extent that the nonsense barked by insurance companies trying to sell your their products is conventional wisdom, yes, the conventional wisdom is wrong. Your analysis of the consequences of a backbreaking liability judgment is correct. An individual's net worth has little bearing on the amount of liability coverage that individual should buy, beyond being a poorly-calibrated gauge of how much coverage that individual can afford.

Mega

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2013, 08:22:14 AM »
Two thoughts:

1 - if the company that is telling you something is a must have is also the company that is selling the must have is trying to get your money.

2 - there have been meta studies done that show that people with higher liability coverage tend to have larger dollar value judgements against them (e.g. If you have 1m coverage, you will receive a higher judgement that someone with 100k coverage).

Based on number 2, one could infer that people with a higher net worth (or recoverable assests) would ALSO have higher judgements awarded against them, independent of their liability coverage.

Thus, it does make sense to have higher liability coverage as your net worth increases.

willn

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 09:00:11 AM »
I'm not sure you understand my question, msilenus. I'll try to rephrase my question one more time.

The conventional wisdom says that Mr. A should get a $1 million umbrella policy and Ms. B should get a $2 million umbrella policy, because Mr. A has $1 million and Ms. B has $2 million.

Suppose they follow this conventional wisdom. If Ms. B has a $2 million judgement, she'll pay nothing because she was covered for $2 million. If Mr. A has a $2 million judgement, he'll lose everything because he was only covered for $1 million and the remaining $1 million that wasn't covered happens to be all he has.

So again, why does the conventional wisdom say that Mr. A should buy less coverage than Ms. B? If they both follow expert advice on how much coverage to buy, and then both get sued for the same amount, Mr. A will lose everything but Ms. B will lose nothing. How does this make sense for Mr. A? Why would experts advise him to buy less coverage than Ms. B if they're equally likely to get sued for the same amounts?

Not sure where you got the idea this is "conventional wisdom".  My insurance agent, among others, has pointed out that liability isn't a function of your net worth, but usually a function of the earning potential of the injured party and the damage you've done to their property. If you plow into someone from behind and they can never work again, your liability would be the present value of their future earnings.  Maybe they'd earn 60K a year for 20 more years, so you'd owe them, what, 800K?

As others have pointed out, if you own no assets, your effective liability is low: they can sue for 800K but you'd probably just go bankrupt, so they won't bother. Your insurance company will try to settle for your stated limits.  So statistically you are probably better off putting the money for an extra liability policy into growing your assets for a while--your risk tolerance and amount of risk taking activity would play into that calculation.  If you never drive or do other activities that could kill, maim, or destroy someone's property, your risk is so low as to make high limit policies unnecessary.

Any good insurance agent would provide such guidance, so I wonder where the 'conventional' wisdom came from.  Like most financial advice, this topic is way too complex to reduce to one maxim.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 09:01:43 AM by willn »

ZiziPB

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2013, 02:35:59 PM »
In my mind an umbrella policy works a little bit like a property policy. I have an asset that I want to protect (my stache) so I "insure it" by getting an umbrella policy.  Just like I would insure the contents of my house or expensive jewelry.  The higher the value of the asset, the more coverage you want to have. 

Nords

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Re: Liability insurance: why buy more if you have a high net worth?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 09:27:03 PM »
Even so, I remain unconvinced by the idea that your coverage should in all cases equal your net worth, or even have a very strong relationship at all with your net worth.
To be excruciatingly correct, we should be discussing gross worth.

The courts, lawyers, and insurance companies don't care about your mortgage debt, car loans, or credit cards...