The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: teamzissou00 on June 23, 2013, 08:40:05 PM
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Any thoughts? Lawyer is charging $800, legalzoom is less then $100 (I think).
What did you do for your will? Did you also set up any trust/estate?
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I'm a lawyer and I hired an estate planning lawyer to do my estate planning/will. Does that tell you anything? And yes, trusts are involved. Not worth saving $700 IMO. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Any thoughts? Lawyer is charging $800, legalzoom is less then $100 (I think).
What did you do for your will? Did you also set up any trust/estate?
Why not do both? Educate yourself with a cheap product from Intuit or Nolo, and then take the output to a lawyer for the final review & signatures.
The first part will educate you and reduce the time spent answering lawyer's questions, while the second part will make sure that your wishes are correctly converted to legal prose.
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I'm a lawyer and I hired an estate planning lawyer to do my estate planning/will. Does that tell you anything? And yes, trusts are involved. Not worth saving $700 IMO. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I did the samething. Although mine costed alot more as I had some special things to put in the trust.
I actually think it could cost alot more if you want a lawyer to review your work. It's generally cheaper to use firm's standard dox.
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Also depends on what you're trying to protect at this point. If you're just starting out, that looks differ than if you're FI now.
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A good lawyer will also raise issues you might not have thought of since each state has its own laws. This is especially true for matters of guardianship for minor children.
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A good lawyer will also raise issues you might not have thought of since each state has its own laws. This is especially true for matters of guardianship for minor children.
+1
I'm a lawyer and I hired a lawyer for my pour over will and trust. This is an example of the difference between frugal and cheap. Don't be cheap, hire the lawyer. One benefit is that lawyers have the knowledge and experience to project into the future and predict how what seems like a good idea today can become a nightmare for your heirs ten years from now. You can't get that kind of advice from a can.
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To all the lawyers saying to definitely get a lawyer -- really? Like, what if you have <100k in liquid assets and no children? Surely there are some situations where a canned will is good enough?
I'm definitely not qualified to give legal advice and don't currently have a will (on the to-do list...), so I'm in a similar position to the OP. For me, I'm 23, married, no house, no children, and we'd want about as standard a will as you could get, really.
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Wills have to be probated. Trusts don't. Probate can take up to two years and is a royal pain in the tush which your heir will likely need a lawyer to help with.
It's not just about transfer of cash assets. You also have personal and real property to dispose of and there are ways to make it easy and seamless for your heirs.
Every state has a different legal code for wills & trusts and the law changes constantly either by legislative act or by court decision. Does LegalZoom advise and update based on the state Supreme Court decision that was handed down last Friday? (rhetorical)
If you have a small and simple estate then it won't cost much. The role of a lawyer is not just to use the appropriate magic words. A good lawyer will anticipate your (and your heirs') future needs and advise you on how best to structure ownership today in order to make for an easy tomorrow.
Case in point: my best friend inherited a 1/4 share in her grandmother's home. Three other relatives also inherited 1/4 shares so you have one home owned by four people, and it's being lived in by one of them, rent free. I'm sure Grandma did that to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. Imagine the nightmare for the heirs and the disagreements that ensued over whether to charge rent to Freeloader (who couldn't afford to buy) or to sell it (which Freeloader wouldn't agree to do). A lawyer would have advised against this. Note that Grandma had no other assets so her estate was very simple but it left a nightmare behind with years of fighting and ultimately a partition lawsuit.
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If you're willing to put some time into it, I'd recommend checking out a few books from the library on the topic of trusts and estate planning, then make your decision. After doing some reading, I felt comfortable in handling our own estate plan and did so (not with Legalzoom, so I can't comment on whether that tool is any good). Even if you later decide to hire a lawyer to prepare your estate plan, having that knowledge will be invaluable in evaluating how good of a job they are doing for you, and the right questions to ask.
Good books on the subject cover all the do's and don'ts, things to consider for the future and so on, and you can also find updated, state-specific guidance. They are typically written by estate planning attorneys, so you're getting all the basic information covered without having to pay for hourly advice.
It really pays to do some background reading on this important topic, and I think if you become informed enough, you may feel comfortable choosing a DIY option.
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Several relatives have died without a will. The process to secure an executor and probate the estate is public, lawyer intensive, and long but methodical; proceeds are distributed according to the state's inheritance law. Other relatives have used a trust and an pour over will; that is a breeze and done very privately, inexpensively, and quickly. IMO, for an uncomplicated estate even with children, a will is sufficient. Assets like retirement accounts or life insurance proceeds have beneficiaries so a lot can be done without an attorney; bank accounts, in our state, have a payable on death feature, which is different than joint ownership. Since a will is being considered, I would also recommend that the OP do *a living will, *a power of attorney for health care, a POA for property, an organ or body donation form, and complete a Five Wishes document (available on the internet or through a hospital or hospice). Those documents are free or inexpensive. OP should also develop an assets (house, cars, checking and savings accounts, retirement or pensions, investments, life insurance, etc.) and liabilities (loans, credit cards,etc.) document with passwords included to assist the executor. If they have funeral plans, include that in the executor's documents.
If OP knows individuals who have a will, ask to review the documents so OP can see what a typical will is and compare it with documents available at the bookstore or internet. Personally, I would shop for a cheaper attorney or use an internet resource before I would pay $800 for a primarily boilerplate document done by a legal secretary or paralegal.
Above all, get all the documents done. You will feel happier and your loved ones will appreciate your thoughtfulness and care.
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DIY is probably fine short term, but you'll want to do it right eventually (say, set a deadline of "when I FIRE" depending on your age).
Setting up a trust is by far better than using a will, and getting it set up properly is worth the legal costs.
So DIY a will for now, pay for the lawyer to set up a trust later (but not too much later, that will depend on your age/assets/dependents/etc.)
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I managed the best of both worlds. I work at a law firm, and a will and estates lawyer was considering taking up golf but did not want to plunk down the money for clubs. My wife had a used set and bag gathering dust so we made a trade, she set up our will (which was a little complicated given the missus had a child from her first marriage) in exchange for the clubs. Our attorney brought up several scenarios we had not anticipated, so I also recommend this route unless your will is very simple (single and no dependents, for example).
And it was definitely worth the peace of mind knowing it had been done properly.
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DIY is probably fine short term, but you'll want to do it right eventually
But doesn't this presuppose that DIY is not doing it "right"? You can absolutely set up an estate plan the right way on your own, just as you can hire an attorney that does it the wrong way (I'm sure all the attorneys on this forum are outstanding in their profession, but according to other estate planning attorneys, the profession is full of people that don't know what they are doing that hang out an "estate planning" sign because it makes $$).
I'm a lawyer and I hired a lawyer for my pour over will and trust. This is an example of the difference between frugal and cheap. Don't be cheap, hire the lawyer. One benefit is that lawyers have the knowledge and experience to project into the future and predict how what seems like a good idea today can become a nightmare for your heirs ten years from now. You can't get that kind of advice from a can.
I don't think it's cheap not to hire an attorney. One must weigh the expected benefits vs. the costs, and the likelihood of whether or not they can do it competently on their own. Why would it be "cheap" to become knowledgeable enough to prepare your own estate plan? The subject matter isn't so esoteric that a layperson cannot understand it, and the books out there provide tons of examples, case studies, warnings, options, etc.
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DIY is probably fine short term, but you'll want to do it right eventually
But doesn't this presuppose that DIY is not doing it "right"?
Absolutely it does. And I would stand by that statement.
I think in almost all cases a lawyer can set up trusts and such in a much better, more efficient way than a person with no other knowledge than they gain from Google and maybe a book or two at the library DIY'ing it.
A simple will for the short term is a much worse option in probate. Much worse. But probably fine for the short term. But as I said, eventually I believe you'll want to consult a lawyer who specializes in estate planning, trusts, etc.
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DoubleDown - A huge problem is, there's no room for doing a test run. Your will comes into effect when you die, and if you screwed it up, or overlooked something, or didn't make provisions clear, or ran afoul of the technical signing and witnessing requirements, you are shit out of luck, because you are gone and there ain't no bringing you back to fix things. So, can a person theoretically get it right? Sure, but you only get one shot at this. I second those who say, let a lawyer do it. Go by personal reference, and odds are you will find somebody who knows what they are doing.
On the other hand, you'll be gone when/if any problems arise... so what's all the fuss about? (that was a joke. Reminds me of Woody Allen who said he didn't have life insurance because when he died he wanted it to be a real tragedy. Ha.)
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Any thoughts? Lawyer is charging $800, legalzoom is less then $100 (I think).
What did you do for your will? Did you also set up any trust/estate?
Why not do both? Educate yourself with a cheap product from Intuit or Nolo, and then take the output to a lawyer for the final review & signatures.
The first part will educate you and reduce the time spent answering lawyer's questions, while the second part will make sure that your wishes are correctly converted to legal prose.
Trying to do it yourself first and then having a lawyer "just review" it is an awful idea, IMO. Trying to fix something someone else jacked up is more time intensive than just doing it right in the first place.
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For folks with certain types of assets, a simple form will and/or setting up accounts to be transferred automatically at death (sometimes called POD or TOD) could do the trick. Property could be held as a joint tenancy in some states, and some states may allow a POD/TOD for real property. If avoiding probate is a goal, there may be alternatives for simple situations. But you should probably talk to an attorney about it. :)
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If I die without a will, my estate gets split up like this:
- Everything up to 200K goes to my wife (and she can live in the house until she dies).
- The remainder is split up among our children equally.
- No children left alive it goes to grandchildren, no grandchildren it's split between parents, no parents it's split between siblings, no siblings it's split between siblings children, etc.
Even without a will, the legal breakdown goes more or less the way I would structure a will to go. I'll probably do a will at some point, but I really don't see what the benefit of hiring a lawyer to do that would be.
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To all the lawyers saying to definitely get a lawyer -- really? Like, what if you have <100k in liquid assets and no children? Surely there are some situations where a canned will is good enough?
I'm definitely not qualified to give legal advice and don't currently have a will (on the to-do list...), so I'm in a similar position to the OP. For me, I'm 23, married, no house, no children, and we'd want about as standard a will as you could get, really.
Yeah... this. I guess I have significant assets, but: married in a community property state with no kids. I'd like to think the various boilerplate wills for my state would "just work".... but I guess I don't know enough to know if they do or not.
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My thought is that you get what you pay for. I'm a lawyer and I wouldn't do my own will and trusts. Sure, I could educate myself on it, but it would be just as expensive as hiring a specialist and would cost me much more time. And then I'd have to hire someone to do my spouse's will, because, as the beneficiary, I'm not allowed to draft the will.
Consumer Reports regularly evaluates the DIY legal products you mentioned. This is their latest review: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/legal-diy-websites-are-no-match-for-a-pro/index.htm (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/legal-diy-websites-are-no-match-for-a-pro/index.htm)
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If I die without a will, my estate gets split up like this:
- Everything up to 200K goes to my wife (and she can live in the house until she dies).
- The remainder is split up among our children equally.
- No children left alive it goes to grandchildren, no grandchildren it's split between parents, no parents it's split between siblings, no siblings it's split between siblings children, etc.
Even without a will, the legal breakdown goes more or less the way I would structure a will to go. I'll probably do a will at some point, but I really don't see what the benefit of hiring a lawyer to do that would be.
Without a will, it will takes a long time to probate (2 years + in my state) and your heirs will have to have attorneys help them with that process. So, you're basically taking the easy way out for you and dumping the cost and complications onto your heirs. Gee, thanks Dad.
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The subject matter isn't so esoteric that a layperson cannot understand it, and the books out there provide tons of examples, case studies, warnings, options, etc.
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This is exactly why a lay person should NOT be the final source on a will or trust. It appears to be a simple topic but it can actually be very complex (which is why some lawyers specialize in it). A case study published in a 2012 book may have been overruled in 2013 and you'd never know it, unless you want to actively follow all the appellate court decisions in your state, or there may be one tiny factual wrinkle in your circumstances that make the case study completely inapplicable and you'd not know it.
Geez, people. We're talking about seven hundred bucks to get it right and not dump a mess on your heirs. Frugal is important. Skimping on this is cheap.
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Geez, people. We're talking about seven hundred bucks to get it right and not dump a mess on your heirs. Frugal is important. Skimping on this is cheap.
I'm not saying you're wrong. The truth is: I've never died before and I just don't know. But... I've heard this exact argument against pretty much every DIY ever: electrical, auto, plumbing, garage door springs, etc. There is surely risk to doing anything yourself.
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I have to say that I can't see the point of a lawyer-written will or a trust for someone in my situation. Not married, no kids, if I kick the bucket what's left gets split between a few friends and some charities. Frankly, the only reasons I've even bothered is to ensure that my critters get taken care of (a friend has agreed to take them gratis, and won't she be surprised at the chunk of money they bring along :-)), and to make sure certain distant relatives (who'd otherwise inherit if I died intestate) don't get anything.
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and to make sure certain distant relatives (who'd otherwise inherit if I died intestate) don't get anything.
If you do decide to go it alone, be aware that if you leave your distant relatives, who would otherwise inherit under state law absent a will, with nothing, they could argue that the will is invalid in some way (it wasn't signed correctly, didn't meet one of the state's rules, etc.) and try to get "their" portion of the assets. If you specifically want to DISinherit someone, you'd be wise to leave them $1. That way the judge or whoever knows you specifically considered them and specifically left them out of the will as opposed to just "forgetting" them.
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I have to say that I can't see the point of a lawyer-written will or a trust for someone in my situation. Not married, no kids, if I kick the bucket what's left gets split between a few friends and some charities. Frankly, the only reasons I've even bothered is to ensure that my critters get taken care of (a friend has agreed to take them gratis, and won't she be surprised at the chunk of money they bring along :-)), and to make sure certain distant relatives (who'd otherwise inherit if I died intestate) don't get anything.
Actually, you just named 2 big reasons why you shouldn't DIY your own will: (1) you want your friends and charities to get your assets and (2) you don't want your relatives to get them.
Now, if you were to say that you're fine with your family getting everything, then go ahead and DIY because if you do it incorrectly, the default is intestate succession -- if no children, to parents; if parents aren't living, then to siblings and their children if siblings aren't alive; if no siblings, to aunts/uncles and their children if aunts/uncles not alive; etc.
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I have to say that I can't see the point of a lawyer-written will or a trust for someone in my situation. Not married, no kids, if I kick the bucket what's left gets split between a few friends and some charities. Frankly, the only reasons I've even bothered is to ensure that my critters get taken care of (a friend has agreed to take them gratis, and won't she be surprised at the chunk of money they bring along :-)), and to make sure certain distant relatives (who'd otherwise inherit if I died intestate) don't get anything.
the default is intestate succession -- if no children, to parents; if parents aren't living, then to siblings and their children if siblings aren't alive; if no siblings, to aunts/uncles and their children if aunts/uncles not alive; etc.
That varies, state to state. And the portion given to each generation also varies depending on the jurisdiction you're in.
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I don't get all the pessimism about doing it yourself. And I never advocated Googling and a book or two as the alternative; that's a straw man argument. It's completely possible to become educated enough to do it on your own with the right resources, but of course "YMMV!"
Yes, you will only find out if the estate plan passes muster once you are dead and gone -- same as if a lawyer prepared it for you.
If everyone thinks hiring an attorney is the full-proof way to have a can't-miss outcome on any legal matter, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Here are some anecdotal data points I can relate:
- Every time this topic has been discussed and the all the usual warnings are thrown out about things to watch out for, I've been pleased (but not surprised) to know that my estate plan already handles those situations
- My trust has already been pored over by legal departments when attempting to verify the existence and legitimacy of my trust (such as when transferring assets), and has passed muster every time
- I've seen estate plans done for several other people by estate planning attorneys. I see no qualitative or quantitative advantage in those. In fact, to me it looks like several of the ones I saw prepared by attorneys were far less thorough and did NOT handle many of the situations noted here in this forum
- The idea that my estate plan will get tossed out of court because it has been successfully challenged or declared invalid because of improper execution is pretty ludicrous. It's simple to properly execute a will or trust, and it is not every day that revocable trusts get declared invalid by a court, by their very nature. Successfully challenging a deceased person's written, signed, signature-guaranteed-by-a-public-notary last wishes is extremely difficult to do. And let's not forget, assets have already been transferred into the trust, beneficiaries have already been named on insurance and investments, so there are really no "wishes" to even consider or overturn for the major assets.
- All the warnings about "you don't know all the current changes": That would be equally true the day or month or year after an attorney prepared my estate plan, it will always be at risk of being "out of date" unless I stay educated and update it accordingly
- All the warnings about "your estate plan could be declared to be invalid": Also true for any estate plan prepared by an attorney.
- If you think an attorney is going to carefully craft an individual plan around your specific needs, starting from scratch, and not have a paralegal pump out some already-prepared templates (that you could modify yourself as an attorney would for your specific situation) then, again, I have a bridge to sell you
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I think a lot of this argument comes down to the Can I do it myself and save money vs. I hired a specialist to (hopefully) do it right. To the latter argument, get references and you should be fine. To the former argument, a poster wisely pointed out that if you get it wrong, or there are complications, it could be a royal hassle for your heirs, or worse.
Let me give analogy. Suppose my car needs repairs. The exhaust has rotted over time and the brakes are worn out. I am not a car guy but figure I can learn just about anything if I set my mind to it. What happens if I get the exhaust right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the exhaust wrong? I'll probably pay someone to get it right. What happens if I get the brakes right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the brakes wrong? My 4000 pound car cannot stop!!!!
This is why you go get the lawyer. In most cases you cannot afford to make a beginners mistake. Hire a competent specialist and move on.
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Let me give analogy. Suppose my car needs repairs. The exhaust has rotted over time and the brakes are worn out. I am not a car guy but figure I can learn just about anything if I set my mind to it. What happens if I get the exhaust right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the exhaust wrong? I'll probably pay someone to get it right. What happens if I get the brakes right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the brakes wrong? My 4000 pound car cannot stop!!!!
This is why you go get the lawyer. In most cases you cannot afford to make a beginners mistake. Hire a competent specialist and move on.
And to finish that analogy:
...and you won't know until it's too late.
I'm all for DIYing stuff. Even (some) legal stuff. But trusts and estate stuff I wouldn't.
Good for you DoubleDown for apparently doing stuff perfectly right the first time, on your own. IDK how much time it took you, but it apparently saved you $700. For most people my advice would still be "consult an attorney."
:)
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- All the warnings about "you don't know all the current changes": That would be equally true the day or month or year after an attorney prepared my estate plan, it will always be at risk of being "out of date" unless I stay educated and update it accordingly
- All the warnings about "your estate plan could be declared to be invalid": Also true for any estate plan prepared by an attorney.
- If you think an attorney is going to carefully craft an individual plan around your specific needs, starting from scratch, and not have a paralegal pump out some already-prepared templates (that you could modify yourself as an attorney would for your specific situation) then, again, I have a bridge to sell you
A good attorney will create an individual plan and use a paralegal to put it together, but deciding how it should read and what it should include will be done by the attorney. Knowing what questions to ask, also the attorney's job.
You're wrong about a will being executed in June 2013 being undone by a court decision handed down in July 2013 -- that's not what I meant. Your will is probated according to the law in force at the time of execution. My point is that most of the off-the-shelf legal products out there do not account for decisions handed down just prior to the execution date of the will (decisions in prior 6 months are unlikely to make it into the canned stuff). An attorney who specializes in this area will not only know what cases are pending but will also know how they'll likely be resolved and why. Often, the law reads one way but it is interpreted by courts in more nuanced ways that only the practitioners in that area of law will understand.
Example of this kind of nuance: federal law requires bankruptcy judges to consider 6 factors when deciding whether a monthly payment from ex-husband to ex-wife is "support" (non-dischargeable) or "property settlement" (dischargeable). So you might think that judges routinely consider ALL SIX factors. But, in practice, they don't. They look at one factor -- the language of the court order that requires the payment -- and ignore the other five. You'd never know this unless you talked to an attorney practicing bankruptcy law in that district. Every area of law has wrinkles like this.
Non-lawyers generally don't understand that law is alive and constantly changing. DIY if you want but it's penny wise and pound foolish in this case.
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I could probably be convinced that in most cases, seeking a lawyer who specializes in the subject is a good thing.
But there have to be cases where it would actually be a bad idea. If, for example, you are single and have no property (think only household goods and clothes), no dependents, and a net worth of $500, it would obviously be a bad idea -- otherwise you would go into debt trying to bequeath your hello kitty alarm clock to your neighbor. Surely the lawyers would agree?
It's just that all the nuances and examples of how the law is changing/has changed seem to be somewhat special circumstances that certainly don't affect me. My main takeaway with this discussion is that having everything done properly can really help with probate (and I should really get something put together...)
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I could probably be convinced that in most cases, seeking a lawyer who specializes in the subject is a good thing.
But there have to be cases where it would actually be a bad idea. If, for example, you are single and have no property (think only household goods and clothes), no dependents, and a net worth of $500, it would obviously be a bad idea -- otherwise you would go into debt trying to bequeath your hello kitty alarm clock to your neighbor. Surely the lawyers would agree?
It's just that all the nuances and examples of how the law is changing/has changed seem to be somewhat special circumstances that certainly don't affect me. My main takeaway with this discussion is that having everything done properly can really help with probate (and I should really get something put together...)
If you have no assets at all and really don't care what happens after you pass, then sure, a $700 will is a waste of money. But the kind of person who spends their time on this site will more than likely build an estate of some value they will care about in the future.
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Is everybody good with $700 for a will? We paid waay less for ours.
Is it OK to ask: What is the going price for a uncomplicated revocable living trust?
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Is everybody good with $700 for a will? We paid waay less for ours.
I personally would not use a will.
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Is everybody good with $700 for a will? We paid waay less for ours.
Is it OK to ask: What is the going price for a uncomplicated revocable living trust?
Sorry, but that's like asking what the going rate for a car that drives is.
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Wills have to be probated. Trusts don't. Probate can take up to two years and is a royal pain in the tush which your heir will likely need a lawyer to help with.
Wills don't always have to be probated. For example, Colorado lets assets under $60K be passed without probate. This allows most assets to be held JTWROS or POD/TOD. The will is filed and the rest of the assets are passed through affidavits.
Which is why I suggest using DIY software to educate yourself and then having a lawyer double-check the work. You learn how to properly title & maintain your assets, whether through a will or a revocable living trust, while the lawyer makes sure that it's done correctly. It seems like the best way to minimize lawyer fees, trust prep fees, and probate fees.
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Just gonna second a few notions already up there:
* What's right for you will vary from state to state. In my state (CA) probate is expensive, and the fees associated with probate will almost always dwarf what it costs to use a will to keep your estate out of that probate process.
* You're a mustachian, which means you either have or plan to have a significant net worth. A will is likely appropriate, but also consider a trust if you are well on your way and have kids. A will can protect your money from delays, fees, and other claimants. A trust can go further, and protect the money even from the stupid shit kids tend to do to squander an inheritance in their youth; as well as from creditors in bankruptcy and (I think) spouses in divorce, right up until the money is actually distributed to them.
I'd talk to a lawyer practicing in your state. If you or your spouse can get ARAG/group legal benefits, I'd wait until open enrollment to set it up. (And cancel next year.)
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Let me give analogy. Suppose my car needs repairs. The exhaust has rotted over time and the brakes are worn out. I am not a car guy but figure I can learn just about anything if I set my mind to it. What happens if I get the exhaust right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the exhaust wrong? I'll probably pay someone to get it right. What happens if I get the brakes right? I just saved money. What happens if I get the brakes wrong? My 4000 pound car cannot stop!!!!
Good analogy.
I have always done my own brake work -- since I was about 16.
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Honestly not enough information to your question - but it clearly provoked a lot of good discussion.
Do you have kids? No? Then you probably don't need to care much. If you are married and you have set up your accounts and properties appropriately they will transfer to your spouse without hassle or probate in most states (obviously you need to check this). So going "DIY" in this case is low risk. All you care about is your spouse - and that will go reasonably well on automatic pilot and if you both die well what do you care what happens in probate? You are both gone and done caring about anything.
If you have kids you want a guardianship setup properly and you need a will - EVEN IF YOU HAVE A TRUST!!!! Something like this is still in the "simple" category and so things like Nolo will be low risk for DIY.
You will also want your children provided for. Now things may get more complicated. Do you have multiple guardians (remember, your first choice might also be dead) who are responsible enough to do the finances for this? If so, maybe you can still keep it "simple" but otherwise trouble may lay ahead.
What about a revocable living trust? Research carefully. These are good things to have when you are likely to die. Unfortunately, for those likely to live the "living" part of the trust can rapidly become a maintenance headache. They are expensive to setup and you will be changing them a lot if you are young and healthy. So, old or about to die you probably want a lawyer to do this for sure. Young and healthy, probably give it a skip. Again, many states allow property to transfer to a spouse without probate and more and more accounts will also transfer without probate if you have declared a beneficiary (i.e. your hopefully juicy retirement accounts).
So you have a spectrum of DIY making a lot of sense when you are young, have simple finances and simple beneficiaries and a lawyer and trusts making more sense when you are older or want to set up a private island resort for your favorite cat.
You do get what you pay for. For a Mustachian I would say you handle this like most everything else. Be sure to in source what you can (may just be knowledge if you go with a lawyer). Don't get caught up in the details (e.g. every special circumstance you create will increase cost and lower the quality of your will/trust so get over the "oh Suzy really likes that chair, lets make sure she gets it" kind of thinking).
And be sure to make use of the numerous existing mechanisms for avoided probate (hold titles appropriately and always set up your beneficiaries properly). Really, for most young people these days proper titles and beneficiaries with a simple "pour over" will and no trust will do the job. But don't kid yourself thinking that will all happen without planning and action on your part now.
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I think a good parallel to the question of "Do I need a lawyer for an estate plan?" is "Do I need to hire a Certified Professional Planner to manage my investments?"
Usually the advice here goes something like this:
1. No, you should read some books about investing and become familiar with the information yourself. You can absolutely do it on your own, although if you have significant assets you might want to consult with one on a fee-only basis for a short time to address specific questions or strategies.
2. Nobody cares about your money like you do.
3. Keep in mind that <professional> is geared to earn money from you. It doesn't mean they are scammers by any stretch, but their primary motivation or reason for being in business is profit.
4. You owe it to yourself to at least become informed on the basics. That way if you do hire a professional you won't be paying to obtain information that is easily attained through reading, and you'll be in a better position to make decisions and sort out the good advice from the potential BS.
I think this same advice works very well for deciding whether to hire an attorney to do an estate plan. I don't know why an educated, frugal consumer would deviate from this advice when deciding whether to hire an attorney, or a doctor, or anyone else. You just get better results all around when you educate yourself.
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I'm all for DIYing stuff. Even (some) legal stuff. But trusts and estate stuff I wouldn't.
That's fair! Fortunately we all get to decide the things we're comfortable with and the things we aren't.
Good for you DoubleDown for apparently doing stuff perfectly right the first time, on your own. IDK how much time it took you, but it apparently saved you $700. For most people my advice would still be "consult an attorney."
:)
I'm not claiming I did it perfectly, nor would an attorney likely do it perfectly. Any estate plan is open to challenge (just like anyone can be sued for about any reason), although it is very, very unusual to successfully challenge a properly executed revocable trust. And that assumes there would even be someone who wants to try to challenge it...
BTW, the cost for having an attorney create an estate plan to meet my needs varied between $2,000-3,000 where we live, so I had more motivation to DIY than just forking over $700 ;-)
You're wrong about a will being executed in June 2013 being undone by a court decision handed down in July 2013 -- that's not what I meant.
I should have been more exact in my original wording. I didn't mean to imply a court would retroactively undo a will, I meant that the guidance offered and the executed plan can start to become obsolete as soon as it's executed (for example, due to changes in tax law, inheritance and gifting, etc.). This is true whether you DIY or hire an attorney.
Non-lawyers generally don't understand that law is alive and constantly changing.
Tell that to Scalia ;-)
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3. Keep in mind that <professional> is geared to earn money from you. It doesn't mean they are scammers by any stretch, but their primary motivation or reason for being in business is profit.
I like your other points, but I think this one needs a little more thought/clarification as it is quite different for the analogy to professional finance folks.
In the case of a lawyer writing a will/trust the payment is either per hour or fixed fee for the product. That's really the only motivation to the lawyer. The fees won't be dependent on the assets under the trust/will nor is there an incentive to do things detrimental to those assets. Really, the only possible conflict of interest I see is potentially steering a client into something that will require future work (see my warning regarding doing trusts that are unnecessary early in life). But that doesn't do anything bad to the assets, just gets the customer to come back more frequently for something that is perhaps "over protected".
This is quite different from most finance professionals. They often have incentives to do things bad to your assets (e.g. churn) to make money. They aren't just taking your money, in the process of generating that money they lose even more of your money to the market! Much worse situation!
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This is quite different from most finance professionals. They often have incentives to do things bad to your assets (e.g. churn) to make money. They aren't just taking your money, in the process of generating that money they lose even more of your money to the market! Much worse situation!
Agreed, the parallel starts to break down a bit more here. I think the potential for abuse here is when a legal firm bills unnecessary hours. I have definitely seen this happen in other areas of legal practice, with attorneys doing unnecessary, unasked for, and sometimes downright wasteful "work", and the costs can really escalate to ridiculous levels for what should be straightforward issues. I have not heard of this in the case of preparing an estate plan, though, so there may not be a big risk there.
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Any thoughts? Lawyer is charging $800, legalzoom is less then $100 (I think).
What did you do for your will? Did you also set up any trust/estate?
Why not do both? Educate yourself with a cheap product from Intuit or Nolo, and then take the output to a lawyer for the final review & signatures.
The first part will educate you and reduce the time spent answering lawyer's questions, while the second part will make sure that your wishes are correctly converted to legal prose.
Trying to do it yourself first and then having a lawyer "just review" it is an awful idea, IMO. Trying to fix something someone else jacked up is more time intensive than just doing it right in the first place.
Upon further reflection, that "jacked up" document was put together by someone who's trying to communicate their desires to their beneficiaries.
Perhaps it's also a great tool for screening out incompetent or easily-confused lawyers.
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I'm a lawyer. I did my own will when I was in law school It was quite simple. That said, my assets are much greater now. We will be redoing our wills in six months and will use a lawyer for this.
In Canada there are DIY will kits available at bookstores. I think these are a fine option for a single person or a married couple without any complicated assets to manage or distribute.
For remarriages, divorced persons with kids, and significant assets I would use a lawyer who specializes in wills and estates. There are interesting solutions to these situations that you will likely not think of, it is easy to mess up your own will if you deviate from standard terms, and there are many ways to ensure that costs are reduced for your heirs.
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Any thoughts? Lawyer is charging $800, legalzoom is less then $100 (I think).
What did you do for your will? Did you also set up any trust/estate?
Why not do both? Educate yourself with a cheap product from Intuit or Nolo, and then take the output to a lawyer for the final review & signatures.
The first part will educate you and reduce the time spent answering lawyer's questions, while the second part will make sure that your wishes are correctly converted to legal prose.
Trying to do it yourself first and then having a lawyer "just review" it is an awful idea, IMO. Trying to fix something someone else jacked up is more time intensive than just doing it right in the first place.
Upon further reflection, that "jacked up" document was put together by someone who's trying to communicate their desires to their beneficiaries.
Perhaps it's also a great tool for screening out incompetent or easily-confused lawyers.
No. As a lawyer it is always more difficult to work on a document someone else has prepared imo and, worse, it takes more time which is equal to more expense for a client.
I hate when I'm asked to review a non-lawyer's draft of a legal document. This happened recently when I was given a complex bylaw to review that had been drafted by an engineer (from a template). Nightmare task with mistakes everywhere, cross referencing completely off, and unenforceable terms. I was never confused by it, just frustrated that it took longer than it needed to.
With legal documents if you start from the beginning with your own template and client instructions there is a process and a checklist that you go through in order. This saves time and money every time in my experience.
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No. As a lawyer it is always more difficult to work on a document someone else has prepared imo and, worse, it takes more time which is equal to more expense for a client.
I hate when I'm asked to review a non-lawyer's draft of a legal document. This happened recently when I was given a complex bylaw to review that had been drafted by an engineer (from a template). Nightmare task with mistakes everywhere, cross referencing completely off, and unenforceable terms. I was never confused by it, just frustrated that it took longer than it needed to.
With legal documents if you start from the beginning with your own template and client instructions there is a process and a checklist that you go through in order. This saves time and money every time in my experience.
Interesting - Sounds very similar to debugging someone else's (uncommented or poorly commented) code.
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Concur with totoro - it is always more difficult to "fix" someone else's document than to prepare your own.
I do estate planning for a living. If you have kids, you need a will if for no other reason than to name guardians. Otherwise, depending on the state, a judge will decide to whom the kids will go if you and spouse (if you have a spouse) both pass away. In addition, if in your state probate is slow and expensive, you need a will to help move your estate along.
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I think a good parallel to the question of "Do I need a lawyer for an estate plan?" is "Do I need to hire a Certified Professional Planner to manage my investments?"
Usually the advice here goes something like this:
1. No, you should read some books about investing and become familiar with the information yourself. You can absolutely do it on your own, although if you have significant assets you might want to consult with one on a fee-only basis for a short time to address specific questions or strategies.
2. Nobody cares about your money like you do.
3. Keep in mind that <professional> is geared to earn money from you. It doesn't mean they are scammers by any stretch, but their primary motivation or reason for being in business is profit.
4. You owe it to yourself to at least become informed on the basics. That way if you do hire a professional you won't be paying to obtain information that is easily attained through reading, and you'll be in a better position to make decisions and sort out the good advice from the potential BS.
I think this same advice works very well for deciding whether to hire an attorney to do an estate plan. I don't know why an educated, frugal consumer would deviate from this advice when deciding whether to hire an attorney, or a doctor, or anyone else. You just get better results all around when you educate yourself.
Oy vey, SO not the case. I'm a lawyer too and would not do my own will (because I'm not a trusts & estates lawyer). Or, let me correct that: I might do my own will if all of the following were true:
(1) I had the time to get it right (for me, a lawyer, probably 10 hours; for all you non-lawyers, significantly more... and of course, for an estates & trusts lawyer, maybe 3-4 hours);
(2) That time was not better spent earning money or saving money on some less risky task, such as re-tiling my bathroom myself or whatever; and
(3) I had free access to Westlaw or Lexis to look up the latest caselaw and treatises regarding wills, trusts and estates in my specific state (I get such access twice a week at my firm--but you non-lawyers get it approximately, um, NEVER).
For me this fails on point (2), because the amount of time it takes a non-specialist to get it right could be better spent earning money or saving it in an area where the minor errors of the amateur or non-specialist would have much less devastating consequences (such as, oops, my bathroom floor has irregular grout lines or whatever). For the non-lawyers here, it fails on both points (2) and (3).
One of the key problems is that you can't just look this up in a book, because the laws are different from one state to the next. Money mangagement? That, you can look up in a book. Same goes for laying floor tile, repairing your car, or for that matter even dealing with minor health problems -- because floors, cars and human bodies are the same regardless of where you live. Wills and trusts aren't. Intestate succession (i.e. what happens if you die without a will) aren't. Challenging a will (i.e. how easy it is for relatives and others to challenge your sloppy will after you die) isn't.
So I would just brainstorm how you can use that amount of time--namely, the time it would otherwise take for you to do your will correctly (if you had access to Westlaw or Lexis and knew what to do with that access--which is likely not the case)--to either earn a good chunk of the $700 or save a good chunk of it by DIY'ing or bartering for something else. Preparing your own will and/or trust is one of the few DIY projects that is, indeed, cheap rather than frugal.
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Here's the telling fact for me: 5 separate people in this thread have said they are lawyers and wouldn't do their own, but would go to a specialist.
If these Mustachian people wouldn't do it DIY in a field related to their own, but want a specialist, I'd probably take that as a sign.
Here's the analogy that makes sense to me: most car mechanics would DIY their own car. Most personal finance planners would DIY their own finances.
But a doctor is going to go to a specialist for something outside his/her specific niche. The lawyer, likewise.
If these lawyers would have so much more of an easier time DIYing it (being familiar with a legalese), yet still want the specialist... That should be a clue for the layman.
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You are a wise man, ARebelSpy. I caulk my own bathtubs and am planning to refinish my own wood floors, and the only reason I hired contractors to put in a kitchen in a rental of mine last month was because I was in trial and had a tenant wanting to move in ASAP (i.e., no time to DIY), but do my own will? Dude, no.
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Here's the telling fact for me: 5 separate people in this thread have said they are lawyers and wouldn't do their own, but would go to a specialist.
If these Mustachian people wouldn't do it DIY in a field related to their own, but want a specialist, I'd probably take that as a sign.
Here's the analogy that makes sense to me: most car mechanics would DIY their own car. Most personal finance planners would DIY their own finances.
But a doctor is going to go to a specialist for something outside his/her specific niche. The lawyer, likewise.
If these lawyers would have so much more of an easier time DIYing it (being familiar with a legalese), yet still want the specialist... That should be a clue for the layman.
If a lawyer has a spouse, they cannot do their spouse's will, so of course many married attorneys would use an attorney. IMO, their comments are worthwhile, but may also be self-interested for their profession.
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IMO, their comments are worthwhile, but may also be self-interested for their profession.
In general, sure.
Here on the MMM forums? I guess I have more faith in the readers that posted to be honest and forthcoming than you do.
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Here's the telling fact for me: 5 separate people in this thread have said they are lawyers and wouldn't do their own, but would go to a specialist.
If these Mustachian people wouldn't do it DIY in a field related to their own, but want a specialist, I'd probably take that as a sign.
Here's the analogy that makes sense to me: most car mechanics would DIY their own car. Most personal finance planners would DIY their own finances.
But a doctor is going to go to a specialist for something outside his/her specific niche. The lawyer, likewise.
If these lawyers would have so much more of an easier time DIYing it (being familiar with a legalese), yet still want the specialist... That should be a clue for the layman.
If a lawyer has a spouse, they cannot do their spouse's will, so of course many married attorneys would use an attorney. IMO, their comments are worthwhile, but may also be self-interested for their profession.
Um, no.
1. In Canada I am aware of no restriction against a lawyer drafting a will for their spouse. If a beneficiary witnesses a will it will void their inheritance.
2. I do not practice in this area, nor do I wish to, and would not benefit from promoting anyone to use a lawyer for this.
3. I said that there are some situations where a ready-made off-the-shelf will works. Here are some reasons to use a lawyer if you don't want your will contested or deemed invalid in part:
•you are separated from your spouse but not divorced
•you are divorced and want to re-marry
•you are divorced and paying for the support of your former spouse and children
•you are living common-law, will be entering a common-law relationship, or leaving an existing one
•you are in a blended family relationship, with children of each spouse from previous relationships
•you have children from a previous relationship and an existing one
•you own your own business or are part-owner with other partners
•your estate is large and you need assistance with estate planning long before your death to reduce or eliminate taxes on your death
•you have a history of emotional or mental problems such that someone could attack the validity of your will on the basis that you did not know what you were doing when you signed the will, or were not capable of understanding the financial matters covered in the will
•you want to live in the U.S. or elsewhere for extended periods of time (the issue of your technical domicile, or permanent residence at the time of your death has legal and tax implications in terms of your will)
•you own or plan to own real estate in the U.S. or elsewhere
•you have a will which was signed outside Canada or plan to do so
•you want to forgive certain people for debts they owe you, or make special arrangements for the repaying of debts or mortgages to your estate should you die before the debt or mortgage is paid back to you
•you want certain events to occur which are complicated and have to be carefully worded, such as having a spouse or friend have a certain income or use of a home until they re-marry or die and at that time the balance of money or house goes to someone else
•you want to set up a trust arrangement to cover various possibilities
•you want to make special arrangements to care for someone who is incapable of looking after themselves, or has shown themselves unable to apply sound financial or other relevant judgement (a child, an immature adolescent, a gambler, an alcoholic, a prodigal child, a spendthrift, or someone who has emotional, physical or mental disabilities or limitations or who is ill)
•you wish to disinherit a spouse, relative, or child for a variety of reasons (For example, you may have lent a lot of money to one child out of several and the money was not repaid and promises were broken and a serious estrangement occurred. The debt substantially reduced your estate. Another more positive reason is that all your children are now independently wealthy and don’t need your money. You may therefore want to give the majority of your estate to charitable causes.)
•you wish to appoint a guardian to look after your children in case you and your spouse die together
•you have several children and you want to provide the opportunity for one specific child to buy, have an option to buy, or receive in the will the house, business, farm or a specific possession or asset of your estate, and want to set up the appropriate procedures and wording to enable your wishes to occur.
I you want to DIY it, fill your boots!
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IMO, their comments are worthwhile, but may also be self-interested for their profession.
In general, sure.
Here on the MMM forums? I guess I have more faith in the readers that posted to be honest and forthcoming than you do.
*** First off for the attorneys, I'd like to get one thing straight right off the bat, because I think we're confusing the OP's original "$700" question with the general case and aggravating factors being thrown around. Show me the experienced estate planning lawyer in Northern Virginia that will do a complete estate plan (a thorough trust, pour-over will for two spouses, durable powers of attorney, living will, nomination of guardian, transfer of assets, final instructions, etc.) for $700 with all the complicated factors being thrown about here, and I will be first in line to sign up for that deal! Because it doesn't exist, it's more like $3000+ as the going rate. Big difference, particularly with the "cheap vs. frugal" accusations being handed out.
With that out of the way, I don't think the lawyers here are being dishonest, I think their advice honestly represents the view that goes with that profession. And that profession is extremely risk-averse, almost to a fault in situations like this. Of course they hire another lawyer to do their own wills; they are adversarial, and trained to see potential legal peril everywhere and do everything they can to eliminate technical, legalistic risk.
A layperson should consider their own situation and weigh all the bogeyman risks being thrown about here. For shit to go wrong in your DIY estate planning, ALL the following must happen:
- You must be unable to read and make sense of the educational materials available, leading to...
- You make a critical mistake in your documents (shame on you if you do that). Courts are going to give great deference to a person's final wishes, they'll be loath to overturn anything unless it is just clearly wrong. The proverbial wills written on the backs of napkins have successfully withstood court challenges
- You're too stupid to make simple beneficiary designations on retirement assets, insurance, etc. so that they automatically flow to your heirs
- You're too stupid to hold title to your home(s) in joint tenancy with your spouse so they automatically go to your spouse
- Someone exists that even knows about your assets and your plans for disbursing them, and disagrees with those plans
- That person makes a claim against your estate (presumably with some kind of legitimate grievance, not just "I don't like it" reasons)
- Your heirs tell that person to pound sand, so that person makes a formal legal challenge to your trust/will after weighing their own chances of success and the cost involved to do that
- That person proves to a judge that your trust or will had a fatal flaw (and even if it did, they only get that part overturned, the rest can be severable).
Pro Tip: That last thing is extremely hard to do. Judges don't generally go around disregarding a person's last wishes without a damn good reason to do so. If your dying wishes are being overturned, it's likely because you were trying to do something stupid in the first place, like disinherit someone that can't be disinherited, which goes to the point above about not doing stupid things, which you will not do if you read and comprehend the information that's available.
Final Pro Tip: All the things described above can happen even if you hire a lawyer to do your will/trust
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I've gotta add one thing: The doom-and-gloom scenarios seem very soap opera-ish and mostly unrealistic to me. How many of us have some evil, red-headed (sorry redheads ;-) ) second cousin lying in wait to step forward at your death to make some claim against your assets, and everybody in the room gasps?
For most of us, when we die, our spouse or adult children as executors of the estate will quietly provide a copy of the death certificate and get assets transferred from the deceased person into their own name, case closed. The rest of the family and friends will be at the funeral and be available for moral support and perhaps to get things in order. They won't likely be making legal claims against the estate. But if they do, as argued above, that will be very difficult for them to achieve.
When my dad died (his estate plan prepared without a lawyer with my help), everything went incredibly smoothly. The hospital never even asked to see a copy of the living will, they relied on my word that it existed and discontinued life support as directed by us, per his wishes. All the assets went to his wife per his wishes (with me and her daughter as later beneficiaries if we outlive her). No one came around challenging anything, and he had two ex-wives with various step-children, etc. I'd have to believe this is more common than not.
It's just not as hard as is being portrayed by the attorneys, IMO.
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DD, I share your perspective on this.
I'd add two clarifications to it:
- If your family situation is stable, your asset distribution simple, and in the case of guardianship your children's guardian competent and reliable then for a younger person the risk of DIY is low. The cost of repeatedly updating wills with legal advice as you get older may become high. The older you get (more likely to die soon) and the more complicated the estate or family situation is the riskier DIY is - and as you get older the likelihood of cost in modification gets lower. And note all discussion is of risk, not certainties, because there is risk in any estate transaction (with or without a competent lawyer). Hopefully the legal advice reduces the risk, but it doesn't eliminate it. Like all things it is making a risk/reward decision and that will depend on the situation.
- As to your assertion that it is extremely unlikely a judge will ignore the wishes of the deceased that is quite correct, but I don't think that is the risk people are trying to mitigate. There are very significant costs associated with legal challenges to the will (time, money and other opportunity costs) even if the end result is the distribution matching the desires of the deceased. I believe that is the primary real risk one attempts to mitigate with professional legal advice. Again, the underlying assumption being that legal advice reduces that risk by reducing the likelihood the will can be challenged to the degree a judge must rule and arguments be given. Whether that reduction of risk is worth the upfront cost depends again on the situation and a number of difficult to evaluate factors.
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IMO, their comments are worthwhile, but may also be self-interested for their profession.
In general, sure.
Here on the MMM forums? I guess I have more faith in the readers that posted to be honest and forthcoming than you do.
Not to mention, there's the point about car mechanics saying it's Mustachian to repair your own car, carpenters/plumbers/etc. saying it's Mustachian to DIY your carpentry and plumbing... yada yada. Why aren't they "self-interested for their profession"? Because cars, carpentry and plumbing is the same everywhere, and you really can look it up in books and on YouTube and do it yourself. But the law isn't that way.
If we were in France and I was a French lawyer, I would give you different advice--I'd tell you that if your needs are simple you can look it up in a book and do what the book says--because the law IS the same all over France: France is not divided up into 50 states each with its own estates & trusts law, and there are books about how to DIY your legal issues--I used to live there and I've seen them. But I'm in the US and I'm assuming you're here too, or maybe in Canada, which is also divided up into provinces with their own laws. That's the problem, and the reason you can't just go look this up in a book. (You can download state-specific LegalZoom forms all you want, but they are not at all customized with your needs or intentions in mind, and you can't sue LegalZoom for malpractice if they mess something up or fail to update their forms when the law changes.)
When you start getting paranoid about lawyers scratching each other's backs, remember that I'm an intellectual property litigator and I gain nothing, nada, zip, from telling you to go see an estates and trusts lawyer in whatever state you're in. That helps me not in the slightest. My clients are giant companies arguing about patents. I have nothing to gain from telling you to call a completely different kind of lawyer whom I don't even know who practices in some other state.
And look at it this way: if you were involved in a contentious divorce, would you DIY it? Would you try and handle your own divorce and just trust that it would go how you wanted it to? Not unless you're nuts, and cheap rather than frugal (a.k.a. pennywise and pound foolish). People sometimes go nuts when their relatives die. Siblings sometimes try to steal from each other, long-lost relatives come out of the woodwork, loving aunts contest their brother's will when he leaves "too much" to a beloved niece... it's crazy. It's a contentious divorce, squared. Why would you inflict that on your loved ones, when for $700 you could've done it right?
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So on one hand we have six attorneys calmly stating reasoned opinions about the very numerous possible pitfalls of a DIY will, and on the other we have a single layperson arguing that it's a terrible idea and responding to reasoned conversation with hyperbole and shrillness. By the way, of the dozens of scenarios listed so far in the thread, not one violates all eight of your pulled-out-the-ass maxims. Hell, unmarried individuals and renters couldn't possibly violate some of them!
If you think not getting a will and saving the $700 is the right decision (or, hell, $3000, which doesn't seem appreciably different to me), I guess I can respect that. But there has never been nearly this much contention over any other DIY question in more than a year of the forum and tens of thousands of posts, and I think that says a lot about the complexity of estate law and the genuine necessity of getting it done right.
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So on one hand we have six attorneys calmly stating reasoned opinions about the very numerous possible pitfalls of a DIY will, and on the other we have a single layperson arguing that it's a terrible idea and responding to reasoned conversation with hyperbole and shrillness. By the way, of the dozens of scenarios listed so far in the thread, not one violates all eight of your pulled-out-the-ass maxims. Hell, unmarried individuals and renters couldn't possibly violate some of them!
Clarifications:
- I never said hiring an attorney is a terrible idea. I said it's very reasonable to DIY if you invest the time to understand the complexities. Anyone not comfortable doing it on their own should hire an attorney.
- I'm not the single layperson arguing against 6 attorneys. Several others (including attorneys) have chimed in saying there are situations in which people can adequately do it themselves.
- Sorry you think I was being shrill or using hyperbole, but it was my estimation that the counter-argument was doing exactly that: Portraying all these potential problems in contesting the will, which I was attempting to describe as unlikely and that can be handled.
- All of the "problem scenarios" described in this thread presuppose some kind of contention over the deceased person's wishes. If there is no contention, there's no problem (barring some other kind of hangup in transferring assets). Not quite sure where you are going here.
I don't need to convince anyone, and I really am not trying to (though it surely does appear that way). There's a tide of opinion from the lawyers that no one should DIY, I thought I could offer a real-world example that it can be done, that you don't need to feel intimidated by the legal system. Good luck to all in whatever you choose.
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DD, I share your perspective on this.
I'd add two clarifications to it:
- If your family situation is stable, your asset distribution simple, and in the case of guardianship your children's guardian competent and reliable then for a younger person the risk of DIY is low. The cost of repeatedly updating wills with legal advice as you get older may become high. The older you get (more likely to die soon) and the more complicated the estate or family situation is the riskier DIY is - and as you get older the likelihood of cost in modification gets lower. And note all discussion is of risk, not certainties, because there is risk in any estate transaction (with or without a competent lawyer). Hopefully the legal advice reduces the risk, but it doesn't eliminate it. Like all things it is making a risk/reward decision and that will depend on the situation.
- As to your assertion that it is extremely unlikely a judge will ignore the wishes of the deceased that is quite correct, but I don't think that is the risk people are trying to mitigate. There are very significant costs associated with legal challenges to the will (time, money and other opportunity costs) even if the end result is the distribution matching the desires of the deceased. I believe that is the primary real risk one attempts to mitigate with professional legal advice. Again, the underlying assumption being that legal advice reduces that risk by reducing the likelihood the will can be challenged to the degree a judge must rule and arguments be given. Whether that reduction of risk is worth the upfront cost depends again on the situation and a number of difficult to evaluate factors.
Agreed, thanks for adding!
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- I never said hiring an attorney is a terrible idea.
You're right. Upon rereading, the first page is much more measured than I thought.
- All of the "problem scenarios" described in this thread presuppose some kind of contention over the deceased person's wishes. If there is no contention, there's no problem (barring some other kind of hangup in transferring assets). Not quite sure where you are going here.
I'm saying that the list contains several items that alone are sufficient to cause a headache, but the way you describe it each item is necessary and any one thing being done correctly is a shield against misfortune. I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on tv, but I can think of scenarios for many of them that would lead to stress and trouble even if the other items were all optimal.
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So, I am a lawyer, and I don't have a will (yet). I fully intend on having one, drafted by an attorney who knows what they are doing. I am sure that in some situations, a DIY will could work out beautifully for someone. But shit happens. Shit you don't expect, and I don't want my death to cause anyone any unneeded stress.
Case in point. I had a family member die nearly two years ago. They had a form will drafted from the internet. Very simple estate (just some land, house on the land needed to be torn down, no assets), and it was all left to one person (a distant family member). Should have been simple without any problems. In a perfect world, the form will would have covered what needed to be covered, if only everyone behaved themselves.
To make a long story short, another long lost family member decided to contest the will (he would have inherited if this family member had died intestate). But since I was also an heir at law (though not named in the will), I was identified as an "interested" party. It really sucked to be involved in something contentious while trying to mourn the loss of a relative. Prior to this person contesting the will, I had been in touch with the beneficiary who offered to give me some special family heirlooms (pictures of my grandparents (long since deceased) as well as letters from my father (also long deceased) that she had no need for and I didn't even know existed. Once this other family member contested the will, the beneficiary cut me off from any communication and I will probably never see those pictures or those letters.
The thing that should be pointed out is the reason this person decided to contest the will is because it was a form will made without an attorney. They thought it would be easy pickings. But it turned out to be anything but simple, and the case is still in probate (it's been nearly 2 years now), and I am no longer talking to the person who contested the will (nor is anyone else in the family, for that matter). Perhaps it wouldn't be such an issue if the people named in the will were the same as those who would inherit if you died intestate, so this story may have limited traction. This is just a cautionary tale.
And no, there is no guarantee that a lawyer drafted will would have fared any better, but I bet if the will had been drafted by an attorney, this person would never have tried to contest it. The form will could be an easy target. All I know is that this whole situation has created a lot of conflict and sadness within my family because one person decided to try for a big payout. All it takes is one person to make shit complicated, and that person could come out of nowhere.
Anyway. Sorry for the long post... The upshot is, do whatever you want to do, but sometimes it isn't so bad to be risk-averse, especially when you are talking about a highly emotional issues such as death.
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I don't need to convince anyone, and I really am not trying to (though it surely does appear that way). There's a tide of opinion from the lawyers that no one should DIY, I thought I could offer a real-world example that it can be done, that you don't need to feel intimidated by the legal system.
If you DIY'd your will and you're still alive, you are not yet a real world example of anything other than that it's possible to download a form off the internet (or read a few books and write something up) and call it a will. The question is whether that's a good idea.
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I've just spent months working on my estate plan (and still am not finished).
I heartily recommend reading Nolo's estate planning book. If you can't make it through that book, then you should definitely hire a lawyer. It's easy to read and extremely helpful.
After I read it, I hired a lawyer. All told, about $4K for all my planning documents (revocable trust, will, powers of attorney, health care documents, paying him to transfer the title of my house, etc.). I had some specific needs that might have jacked up the price, but he was extremely helpful in explaining things that I didn't understand and bringing up topics that I hadn't considered (even after all my independent research). He also was knowledgeable about the relevant state laws and recommended things that related to that.
But one of the main reasons I hired a lawyer was as someone else has pointed out: "There are very significant costs associated with legal challenges to the will (time, money and other opportunity costs) even if the end result is the distribution matching the desires of the deceased. I believe that is the primary real risk one attempts to mitigate with professional legal advice."
I also was sued one (car accident). It was handled entirely by the insurance company, but it still was a wearying experience (took nearly two years to resolve).
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No. As a lawyer it is always more difficult to work on a document someone else has prepared imo and, worse, it takes more time which is equal to more expense for a client.
I hate when I'm asked to review a non-lawyer's draft of a legal document. This happened recently when I was given a complex bylaw to review that had been drafted by an engineer (from a template). Nightmare task with mistakes everywhere, cross referencing completely off, and unenforceable terms. I was never confused by it, just frustrated that it took longer than it needed to.
With legal documents if you start from the beginning with your own template and client instructions there is a process and a checklist that you go through in order. This saves time and money every time in my experience.
Speaking as the customer who has to deal with the lawyer's staff, I've always found it difficult to fill out the worksheets and the templates and whatever other forms they use. The forms ask for data & information without necessarily suggesting where the solution is going. If I knew more about the concepts beforehand then I'd be better able to answer the questions. Besides, maybe I'm only there to update one aspect of a will. If I have to start all over again then I want to be assured that such an approach is truly necessary and not just a rigid mindset.
I think it also helps said customers to use these programs to familiarize themselves with the concepts and the jargon so that they can understand more of the lawyer's perspective instead of having to just be blissfully ignorant taken care of. Especially if they encounter someone who has an attitude of "I'm the lawyer, I'm in charge".
You, the lawyer, could pretend to be interested in the customer's effort while surreptitiously using the conversation as an excuse to fill out your own worksheet and proceed through your own process. Who knows, the customer may be using their DIY will as a way to decide what lawyer to use.
But, hey, if you have more business than you want then I agree that you should quickly turn these customers away so that they can stop wasting their time... and yours.
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We had a very experienced estate attorney sort all our affairs several years ago: wills, trust, healthcare directives, powers of attorney. He was extremely helpful. As I recall it was about $700.
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No. As a lawyer it is always more difficult to work on a document someone else has prepared imo and, worse, it takes more time which is equal to more expense for a client.
I hate when I'm asked to review a non-lawyer's draft of a legal document. This happened recently when I was given a complex bylaw to review that had been drafted by an engineer (from a template). Nightmare task with mistakes everywhere, cross referencing completely off, and unenforceable terms. I was never confused by it, just frustrated that it took longer than it needed to.
With legal documents if you start from the beginning with your own template and client instructions there is a process and a checklist that you go through in order. This saves time and money every time in my experience.
Speaking as the customer who has to deal with the lawyer's staff, I've always found it difficult to fill out the worksheets and the templates and whatever other forms they use. The forms ask for data & information without necessarily suggesting where the solution is going. If I knew more about the concepts beforehand then I'd be better able to answer the questions. Besides, maybe I'm only there to update one aspect of a will. If I have to start all over again then I want to be assured that such an approach is truly necessary and not just a rigid mindset.
I think it also helps said customers to use these programs to familiarize themselves with the concepts and the jargon so that they can understand more of the lawyer's perspective instead of having to just be blissfully ignorant taken care of. Especially if they encounter someone who has an attitude of "I'm the lawyer, I'm in charge".
You, the lawyer, could pretend to be interested in the customer's effort while surreptitiously using the conversation as an excuse to fill out your own worksheet and proceed through your own process. Who knows, the customer may be using their DIY will as a way to decide what lawyer to use.
But, hey, if you have more business than you want then I agree that you should quickly turn these customers away so that they can stop wasting their time... and yours.
Me, the lawyer uses no fill in forms for my clients as I do not work for individuals. I do not do wills.
My practice is highly specialized and works extremely efficiently. I have good processes that are designed to keep costs down.
I obtain most of the funds required for this social justice work and I make sure the money is used to create as much progress as possible.
I would suggest that before you jump to conclusions you consider the fact that you do not know everything about what it means to be a lawyer. You may have a point about forms and wasting your time, but I am not involved in such exercises. I am involved in correcting documents drafted by non-lawyers and it is usually inefficient.
I might in fact turn down a client that wants me to review their own badly drafted document rather than start from a new one and cross-referencing because what I can accomplish with my time is more important to me than how many billable hours I put in. That is not to say that I do not care about feelings and relationships, but this is my life we are talking about here too.
I work part-time by choice and have no desire not to make an impact during those hours.
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I'm sure I will get all manner of "but my estate isn't that big comments," so just substitute numbers that are smaller but in excess of the combined lifetime gift and estate tax exemption amount of $5.25 million if you are so inclined. This happens all the time. He probably had a lawyer draft his will too. But I guarantee you it wasn't an estate tax attorney. If it was, they did a piss poor job.
http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/article/gandolfini_will_is_a_tax_catastrophe_estates_lawyer_says/?utm_source=maestro&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email
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I had heard about Gandolfini's supposedly horrible estate plan, but haven't seen details yet about why it was considered to be such a wreck. I wonder why the attorney who said it's horrible thinks it's so bad, other than "there were a bunch of taxes paid." Without knowing the details, I certainly don't see the fact that taxes came out of his estate as necessarily poor planning -- with an estate that large you can expect to pay some hefty taxes as long as you are transferring your wealth to non-charitable causes.
I would assume he DID have his estate plan prepared by an estate planning attorney, which reinforces my assertion that it is very hit and miss whether you will get someone who actually knows what they're doing (well not really MY assertion, but the assertion of many of the attorneys that wrote the books I read that I related in this thread). It certainly pays to be knowledgeable on this subject so you can discern whether or not things are being done properly.
IANAL, but like I said earlier, some of the estate plans I've seen that were drafted by estate planning attorneys had me raising my eyebrows.
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I had heard about Gandolfini's supposedly horrible estate plan, but haven't seen details yet about why it was considered to be such a wreck. I wonder why the attorney who said it's horrible thinks it's so bad, other than "there were a bunch of taxes paid." Without knowing the details, I certainly don't see the fact that taxes came out of his estate as necessarily poor planning -- with an estate that large you can expect to pay some hefty taxes as long as you are transferring your wealth to non-charitable causes.
I would assume he DID have his estate plan prepared by an estate planning attorney, which reinforces my assertion that it is very hit and miss whether you will get someone who actually knows what they're doing (well not really MY assertion, but the assertion of many of the attorneys that wrote the books I read that I related in this thread). It certainly pays to be knowledgeable on this subject so you can discern whether or not things are being done properly.
IANAL, but like I said earlier, some of the estate plans I've seen that were drafted by estate planning attorneys had me raising my eyebrows.
I agree, just because any taxes were paid doesn't mean it was a wreck. But, if more of those assets could have been legally sheltered in some way, but weren't? That's a problem.