Author Topic: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?  (Read 1899 times)

HoneyandSugar

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Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« on: February 05, 2019, 03:12:58 PM »
When I bought my house it came with leased solar which I should have researched better beforehand. The monthly bill is $150! Does anyone else have leased solar? Is there any way to get the bill down? It's killing my single girl budget.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 04:03:18 PM »
Pay it off ahead of time, or suck it up and deal with it as one of those hard-learned lessons.

Solar leases are a great deal for the lease company - rarely are they a great deal for a homeowner unless you attach a ton of value to "Yeah, I've got solar panels..." and can't either qualify for financing or don't have any money to put towards it.

Goldielocks

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 04:11:23 PM »
You could pay off the lease in one lump sum.   Then you could try to sell the solar panel parts (or not).   If the lease had a high interest rate, you could save more money doing it this way.... it all depends on the terms.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 04:15:20 PM »
You could pay off the lease in one lump sum.   Then you could try to sell the solar panel parts (or not).   If the lease had a high interest rate, you could save more money doing it this way.... it all depends on the terms.

Ideally, after you've paid it off, you get to keep the panels and feed back to the grid, but it wouldn't surprise me if the lease terms claim they get the equipment back after the lease is paid off.  Solar leasing places are only barely above payday loan places in my book...

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 06:56:57 PM »
Dang. That sucks!  We bought a vacation home last year with a solar array on it. Paid off and no lease.  Our electric bill last month was $4.

The lease is costing you $150, but surely the panels are generating that in savings right?

Another Reader

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 07:04:19 PM »
What is your monthly electric bill?  There should be some accounting on the bill of how much electricity you used and how much you generated.  Does your electric company buy the excess electricity you generate?  Between the electricity you generate that you use and the electricity you sell back to the utility, there should be significant savings on your bill.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 05:32:14 AM »
What is your monthly electric bill?  There should be some accounting on the bill of how much electricity you used and how much you generated.  Does your electric company buy the excess electricity you generate?  Between the electricity you generate that you use and the electricity you sell back to the utility, there should be significant savings on your bill.

It's a solar panel system.  Surely it's doing SOMETHING.  That seems to be missing from this discussion!

I just checked my bill and the daily average is 0kwh, lol.  HoneyandSugar, while we may not have the same electric company, you should have something similar on your bill.  Notice how mine shows "Current Received" - that's from my panels.  You should be able to see and calculate just how much energy is being saved.  Since you are paying the lease on that setup, I would also call the solar company and tell them you are new and need help understanding the savings.  Often these setups have online features where you can track the performance of your system, too.  Give them a call ASAP and also call your electric company to make sure they are properly crediting you (and receiving) your current.

Generally these solar panel leases are sold to the owners based on the fact that they generate more in electric savings than the cost of the lease (else who would ever sign up for it?).  So you may just need to dig in and see why you aren't being credited or if you are, how much you are saving.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 05:33:46 AM by AlexMar »

Another Reader

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 08:02:30 AM »
You don't own the system.  The lessor does.  The lessor received the tax credit when the system was installed as part of the lease agreement plus they get the lease payments.  You receive the electricity generated.  You should be credited in some way for the electricity the system generates and the credits should show up on your account.  Look at your bill and call your electric utility if there is no credit on the bill for the power generated. 

HoneyandSugar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 10:47:19 AM »
Thanks for all the replies! There is a "savings calculator" on their site so I tried that but of course it's broken :/ Sent an email to the company. At the very least I can see that I don't use more electricity than the panels generate.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 02:27:14 PM »
It's a solar panel system.  Surely it's doing SOMETHING.  That seems to be missing from this discussion!

Sure it is!  It's generating lease payments to the company who owns them and has a lien on the house!

That's really all you can assume about a leased solar setup.  Anything else is a bonus.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 04:58:38 PM »
It's a solar panel system.  Surely it's doing SOMETHING.  That seems to be missing from this discussion!

Sure it is!  It's generating lease payments to the company who owns them and has a lien on the house!

That's really all you can assume about a leased solar setup.  Anything else is a bonus.

Nobody would pay for a leased solar panel setup if it didn't generate savings on the electric bill.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 05:01:43 PM »
Nobody would pay for a leased solar panel setup if it didn't generate savings on the electric bill.

You haven't been around many sales pitches for solar, have you?

The sales pitches tend to quietly assume a somewhat unrealistic 3% growth in power cost over time, which is against the evidence in many areas in which power costs are flat or declining.

Also, this is a new owner of the house - the old owners may have put in a system sized for an awful lot of electrical load.  If you use 2-3MWh/mo, get a solar lease for that, and then you sell the house to someone who uses 1MWh/mo, that second owner is going to be paying for the old owner's "fixed power costs" over time - even if they use radically less.

And that assumes the system works.  A large number of leased systems manage to trip out, and nobody seems to care about it.

Solar companies border on used car salesmen, and the solar lease companies are a hair above payday loan companies, from everything I've seen.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 05:36:02 PM »
I guess I should feel lucky then. Bought the house with it already installed. Not leased, and it zeros out my electric bill. Didn't realize it was such a shitty industry.

Abe

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 06:40:41 PM »
Iíve been researching buying a solar system for our house, and itís pretty clear to me that leasing panels is a bad idea. If you canít afford the system up front, stick with your utility. Solar power is a luxury. It can save you money in certain conditions but paying a financing cost will quickly eat into those savings.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 09:32:23 PM »
I guess I should feel lucky then. Bought the house with it already installed. Not leased, and it zeros out my electric bill. Didn't realize it was such a shitty industry.

Sounds like a good deal for you, probably a poor deal for whoever paid a bunch for the solar and then got a fraction of it back when they sold the house (the value added is nowhere near the full install cost of the system unless you did the work yourself).

In general, you'll get all sorts of glossy sheets about how they've forecast your power use, and it's cheaper to get a 25 year solar loan or whatever, and there's the 30% federal tax credit, and look at how good a deal this is!

If you're the sort of type who dives into the details, what you'll find out is that they've made some optimistic assumptions (for them) about the increase of power rates.  If they're a percent off over 30 years, that can be the difference between you actually saving money on power, and you paying them more than you would have paid in power costs.  With increased renewables in general, betting on 3-4% rate increases is... eh.

To give you an idea, my power bill for the last year before I got one particular quote was ~$1400 (pure electric house - that includes heating, cooling, hot water, pumping from a 200' water level, etc).  They assert I'm going to pay $58,600 in the next 25 years of power - or $2350/yr average.  Yes, I expect my power rates to go up, but the rate increase to make that math work is a solid 4%/yr - every year, for 25 years.  Not really stated, but super easy to reverse engineer out of their quote.  Color me skeptical.

They then just assume everyone makes enough to get the full 30% tax credit in the first year - I make decent coin, but I'm married with 2 kids, I don't pay $12k/yr in federal taxes.  A friend pays nearly nothing in federal taxes, and it was the third quote he got before anyone actually asked that.  They have all sorts of neato financing gimmicks for when you get your huge tax refund, and if you don't get that in the first year, well, pay up, because they're not covering that.

Then, on top of all that, all of this assumes that net metering arrangements will continue for the next 25 years - and I'm betting rather heavily in my system design that they won't.  If net metering goes away without grandfathering, which it will for many people, these cost savings projections are bunk, and it'll cost people a lot of money.

Iíve been researching buying a solar system for our house, and itís pretty clear to me that leasing panels is a bad idea. If you canít afford the system up front, stick with your utility. Solar power is a luxury. It can save you money in certain conditions but paying a financing cost will quickly eat into those savings.

Oh, and solar financing is another cute gimmick.  Yeah, you get a 2.9% rate (or some other reasonably low rate) - by paying a few thousand dollars up front to "buy" that lower rate.  Oh, hey, if I finance, you tack on $4k in financing fees, then I still pay interest?  Cute...

Leasing solar is an even worse deal than that in most cases.  Again, great for the leasor, sucks like hell for the home"owner" (see lien on your house from the solar leasing company, and they're usually awful at transferring that, or even responding to problems - but stop paying your lease, wow they're on top of things).

Anyway.

Don't get me wrong here - I'm not against solar.  I like it.  I'm building a $30k-40k system for myself this next year with an awful lot of panel, battery backup for the whole house, load shifting ability, and designed for an uncertain future in which I'm betting net metering is going away and the power grid is going to be less reliable at some points.

But I feel dirty after any interaction with the solar installer companies.

Jonno1

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 10:22:16 PM »
Sorry to hear of your situation.  Solar can be quite easy to install for anyone with a bit of construction knowledge and help from Wholesale Solar (commpany in Mt Shasta that sells nationally) that will guide you through it and avoid these kinds of arrangements and save a bundle too.  If you go the microinverter route(one inverter per panel) you can add panels as you can afford them with no equipment changes needed. You can get an owner builder permit to install I installed a system in 3 days with my 75 year old dad.  Awesome experience.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2019, 09:20:49 AM »
Sorry to hear of your situation.  Solar can be quite easy to install for anyone with a bit of construction knowledge and help from Wholesale Solar (commpany in Mt Shasta that sells nationally) that will guide you through it and avoid these kinds of arrangements and save a bundle too.  If you go the microinverter route(one inverter per panel) you can add panels as you can afford them with no equipment changes needed. You can get an owner builder permit to install I installed a system in 3 days with my 75 year old dad.  Awesome experience.

I mean, I'm doing my own install, so... I'm just saying, solar installer companies, in my book, are shady SOBs who bury all sorts of questionable assumptions in their glossy sheets to make a sale.  And then sell you $15k of hardware and a few days labor for $40k.  Not a bad gig, though with the tapering/ending of the residential tax credit, something will have to change soon for them.

On the other hand, in most places, you cannot just randomly add panels as you have money.  You need to get a new net metering agreement with your power company for the upgraded system (usually has an application fee), pull electrical permits for the work, get inspections, etc.  It's not a thing that's cost effective to piecemeal together.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 11:36:35 AM »
Sorry to hear of your situation.  Solar can be quite easy to install for anyone with a bit of construction knowledge and help from Wholesale Solar (commpany in Mt Shasta that sells nationally) that will guide you through it and avoid these kinds of arrangements and save a bundle too.  If you go the microinverter route(one inverter per panel) you can add panels as you can afford them with no equipment changes needed. You can get an owner builder permit to install I installed a system in 3 days with my 75 year old dad.  Awesome experience.

I mean, I'm doing my own install, so... I'm just saying, solar installer companies, in my book, are shady SOBs who bury all sorts of questionable assumptions in their glossy sheets to make a sale.  And then sell you $15k of hardware and a few days labor for $40k.  Not a bad gig, though with the tapering/ending of the residential tax credit, something will have to change soon for them.

On the other hand, in most places, you cannot just randomly add panels as you have money.  You need to get a new net metering agreement with your power company for the upgraded system (usually has an application fee), pull electrical permits for the work, get inspections, etc.  It's not a thing that's cost effective to piecemeal together.

The previous owner of my house spent $25k on the dot for the setup.  It's a nice setup with a tie in, wifi reporting and all that nonsense.  It produces about $120 - $150/mo in electricity.  I think the ROI on it is terrible and I would NEVER do that myself at that price.  But you are right, he basically didn't get a dime for those panels when he sold the house, and they were less than a year old!  Divorce is a bitch, lol.  For me, it's a sweet deal.  Free $25k solar panel setup and no electric bill.

He also went nuts on efficiency, he was retired and I think he got obsessive.  Super nice pool pump, brand new high efficiency AC, heat pump water heater, new double pain high efficiency windows, etc.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2019, 05:51:35 PM »
What's the monthly generation?  Power bills don't help compare systems, because stuff is radically varying in price.

The ROI on my build this year is likely to be "never" - it's quite expensive for a net metered setup.  But I'm going to have unlimited grid-down running, the ability to shift power when net metering ends, and, importantly, a lot of hands on experience with this type of system for when they're more popular. ;)

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2019, 05:17:26 AM »
What's the monthly generation?  Power bills don't help compare systems, because stuff is radically varying in price.

The ROI on my build this year is likely to be "never" - it's quite expensive for a net metered setup.  But I'm going to have unlimited grid-down running, the ability to shift power when net metering ends, and, importantly, a lot of hands on experience with this type of system for when they're more popular. ;)

Mine is a 7.25kw system.

AMandM

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »
Sorry to hear of your situation.  Solar can be quite easy to install for anyone with a bit of construction knowledge and help from Wholesale Solar (commpany in Mt Shasta that sells nationally) that will guide you through it and avoid these kinds of arrangements and save a bundle too.  If you go the microinverter route(one inverter per panel) you can add panels as you can afford them with no equipment changes needed. You can get an owner builder permit to install I installed a system in 3 days with my 75 year old dad.  Awesome experience.

So I read this and I see a corollary... unless I have some construction knowledge (I'm guessing at a minimum some electrical and roof work experience), I should not even consider going solar. Would you agree?
My jurisdiction also has a lot of regulations, so maybe I need experience with permits as well.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 09:05:23 AM »
Mine is a 7.25kw system.

That doesn't tell me anything about actual monthly generation in kWh.

So I read this and I see a corollary... unless I have some construction knowledge (I'm guessing at a minimum some electrical and roof work experience), I should not even consider going solar. Would you agree?
My jurisdiction also has a lot of regulations, so maybe I need experience with permits as well.

The cost of doing solar yourself is far, far lower than paying someone else to do it.  Like, a third to half, for a comparable system.  Or lower.

I don't mind people paying for solar, but I also don't think the solar company estimates are correct in power costs, and if net metering goes away (which it will, for a lot of people, in the next 30 years), you'll never get payback on a high priced system.

Rooftop solar is still far more expensive than industrial plants ($3-$4/W installed vs about $1/W installed for industrial), and the common net metered systems mean you pay nothing for power while using the grid an awful lot.  Opinions vary on how sustainable this is, though I'll offer that if nobody is paying for the grid and everyone is using it, the grid stops working in an awful big hurry.  Watch California and Hawaii.

Doing it yourself is, in fact, a royal pain in terms of permits/design/etc (just because it's homeowner installed doesn't mean it can be sloppy), but if you're the sort of person who likes that sort of stuff, you can build something far nicer for the same cost, or build something comparable for way, way less money.

It's a niche I'm trying to get myself into, long term - helping with the design for homeowner installed solar.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2019, 09:13:53 AM »
Opinions vary on how sustainable this is, though I'll offer that if nobody is paying for the grid and everyone is using it, the grid stops working in an awful big hurry.  Watch California and Hawaii.

Why would power companies be so aggressively subsidizing and pushing grid tie solar and energy savings?  I also wouldn't be surprised to see government regulations requiring net metering.  Just look at Ohio.  So the idea that net metering is going to disappear is not something I would bet on.  If anything, it's going to become law.

It's not like a majority of people can generate all of their own electricity needs.  That's never going to happen.  So a majority of people will always be on the grid.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 09:15:33 AM by AlexMar »

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2019, 09:58:24 AM »
Why would power companies be so aggressively subsidizing and pushing grid tie solar and energy savings?  I also wouldn't be surprised to see government regulations requiring net metering.  Just look at Ohio.  So the idea that net metering is going to disappear is not something I would bet on.  If anything, it's going to become law.

Power companies in most areas aren't subsidizing residential grid tie solar.  It's federal and sometimes state tax credits.  Don't confuse California with the rest of the world.

Our current grid is rather massively not suited to handling substantial quantities of rogue generators that pay nothing while still being able to use the full installed capacity - and I'm making the bet that (at least in my neck of the woods) the grid won't change rapidly enough.  My power company (Idaho Power) is trying pretty hard to get rid of net metering, which is fine - my system design will let me adapt, or, with some wind generation and a large propane generator, let me defect from the grid.  I'd rather not, but I'm designing for 60 years of system life (with some component replacements, certainly, but I'm coming up on 40, so I have a 60 year design life for most of the stuff I put together out here, because beyond that I'm unlikely to care and someone else can rebuild it).  I don't think net metering and a functional power grid will last 60 years.

Quote
It's not like a majority of people can generate all of their own electricity needs.  That's never going to happen.  So a majority of people will always be on the grid.

That requires the grid to remain as a functioning entity.  A reliable power grid is, historically and globally, a rarity.  You do things differently with less reliable power, or no power connectivity, but humans function just fine in that environment.  It's certainly not ideal.  That said, we'll see how CA handles it - they're mandating new rooftop solar on pretty much all new construction.  They're post-net-metering (the 1:1 kWh credit), so you don't get as much for power fed in as you pay for power taken out, which is a good step forward for actually funding a power grid.

But, again, looking forward 20-30 years, I don't think a high priced pure grid tie system is a good deal - which is why I'm not building one.

Another Reader

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2019, 10:22:27 AM »
With the PG&E Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it would not surprise me if all the net metering agreements are rejected in the work out.  I had a system bid by several contractors and no one seems to have a solid answer to the question of what will happen.  I certainly would not be buying a grid tied system in their service area until this is resolved.

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2019, 10:28:10 AM »
With the PG&E Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it would not surprise me if all the net metering agreements are rejected in the work out.  I had a system bid by several contractors and no one seems to have a solid answer to the question of what will happen.  I certainly would not be buying a grid tied system in their service area until this is resolved.

PG&E is certainly a power company where I wouldn't want a pure grid tied solar system.  In addition to the uncertainty about net metering agreements post-bankruptcy, they've also repeatedly expressed "interest" in shutting down power on windy days, or dry days, or anything where they might be (rightly or wrongly) blamed for starting wildfires.  So, basically, 4 months of the year, if you're on a long feeder through a forest, your power is at risk of being randomly shut down.  Solar without some sort of backup, in that situation, is (IMO) quite a bit silly.

This is the sort of stuff that feeds my pessimism about the long term reliability of the grid.

Jonno1

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2019, 10:57:01 AM »
"On the other hand, in most places, you cannot just randomly add panels as you have money"  Sorry did not mean to give that impression. Yes you need a new permit but the second one is way easier than the first.  What I was meaning is that it is relatively easy to add another 5 panels on a different rack ( I have another open area on a different facing roof and feed into the same cutoff switch and conduit and you don't have to change any of the wiring or main inverter as each panel has it's own microinverter.   This is more complex if you have a battery system but grid tie microiverter is the most simple design.    yes you need to be able to apply for an owner build permit and know some DIY and electrical (I thought that was what this board was about! :) but it's not particularly complex. 

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2019, 02:07:32 PM »
Why would power companies be so aggressively subsidizing and pushing grid tie solar and energy savings?  I also wouldn't be surprised to see government regulations requiring net metering.  Just look at Ohio.  So the idea that net metering is going to disappear is not something I would bet on.  If anything, it's going to become law.

Power companies in most areas aren't subsidizing residential grid tie solar.  It's federal and sometimes state tax credits.  Don't confuse California with the rest of the world.

Our current grid is rather massively not suited to handling substantial quantities of rogue generators that pay nothing while still being able to use the full installed capacity - and I'm making the bet that (at least in my neck of the woods) the grid won't change rapidly enough.  My power company (Idaho Power) is trying pretty hard to get rid of net metering, which is fine - my system design will let me adapt, or, with some wind generation and a large propane generator, let me defect from the grid.  I'd rather not, but I'm designing for 60 years of system life (with some component replacements, certainly, but I'm coming up on 40, so I have a 60 year design life for most of the stuff I put together out here, because beyond that I'm unlikely to care and someone else can rebuild it).  I don't think net metering and a functional power grid will last 60 years.

Quote
It's not like a majority of people can generate all of their own electricity needs.  That's never going to happen.  So a majority of people will always be on the grid.

That requires the grid to remain as a functioning entity.  A reliable power grid is, historically and globally, a rarity.  You do things differently with less reliable power, or no power connectivity, but humans function just fine in that environment.  It's certainly not ideal.  That said, we'll see how CA handles it - they're mandating new rooftop solar on pretty much all new construction.  They're post-net-metering (the 1:1 kWh credit), so you don't get as much for power fed in as you pay for power taken out, which is a good step forward for actually funding a power grid.

But, again, looking forward 20-30 years, I don't think a high priced pure grid tie system is a good deal - which is why I'm not building one.

It's definitely not just CA doing subsidies.  North Carolina off the top of my head does as well, through Duke Energy.

Nearly every State has net metering laws on the books. I think 46 States have net metering policies or similar polices on the books.  In Florida where I live, it's definitely not optional for the utilities.  It makes little sense to design a system with the assumption that net metering is going away.  In fact, I'd argue it's downright a terrible idea.  Why?  Because battery packs are going to rapidly decrease in pricing as well as all the other components involved.  Solar is still young in that sense.  If/when net metering goes away, I'll invest in a powerwall which will probably be a 1/4 the price it is today and triple the capacity.  We'll see in 60 years....

http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program/detail/2880

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 02:21:01 PM »
It makes little sense to design a system with the assumption that net metering is going away.  In fact, I'd argue it's downright a terrible idea.  Why?  Because battery packs are going to rapidly decrease in pricing as well as all the other components involved.  Solar is still young in that sense.  If/when net metering goes away, I'll invest in a powerwall which will probably be a 1/4 the price it is today and triple the capacity.  We'll see in 60 years....

I rarely do "usual" things.  They tend to be very uninteresting, and there's not a whole lot to learn from them.  Unusual things are interesting, and often a path poorly understood.  For instance, most of the stuff you find on the internet about off-grid power systems is simply wrong.  It's written by people who haven't lived with off grid systems, and don't understand the design compromises.  Alternately, it's rehashed stuff from the 80s or 90s, which isn't how you build an off grid system in 2019 - panels are far cheaper, batteries are far better, and 5kW inverters are a thing that usefully exists, which wasn't the case 20 years ago.

Battery packs may get radically cheaper, or they may not.  What I do have going for me, if I do it now, is that I get a 30% federal tax credit and some minor local credits on the whole system cost.  So, for it to be cheaper to wait, I'd have to have the whole system come out 30% cheaper, plus the power costs between now and then - and I wouldn't have a resilient system in place as soon.  I give the odds of a functioning power grid out here in 50 years say... 75/25 odds (in favor of it functioning), so being familiar with systems that work grid-down is helpful.

AC coupled solar is, IMO, a hack to retrofit a battery into a system not designed for it.  If you're designing from the ground up for grid-down capability, a DC coupled system is the way to go.  I'll certainly sell somewhat less than I would without the multiple stages of conversion in place, but I'll have far better ability to run without interruption if the power grid is unreliable.  And, unlike the Powerwall and transfer switch combination, I have genuinely uninterrupted power to the house.  The Powerwall setups, even if off-grid capable, have a few second switchover when cutting over to purely battery.  I won't have that.

In any case, I recognize that what I'm building isn't what most people build, but I have somewhat different goals and value things differently, so it's what I'm building.  And, yes, I'm still using good old flooded lead acid. ;)  I rebuild lithium packs as part of my living, and still think FLA is better for standby and limited demand shifting use.

Jonno1

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 07:50:32 PM »
Syonyk - I'm on Pacific power in far Northern California and pay a nominal fee to be connected to the grid for system maintenance.  I expect the new mandate for solar on all new homes in California is going to warrant some grid upgrades in the form of storage to smooth out the demand curve other wise the whole state grid is going to go wonky with the generation/demand imbalance between peak solar and peak usage.  Just not sure exactly what type of storage that will look like yet.  I'd be interested to see your system design if you care to share.  Love learning more about this I only know grid tie install so far.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2019, 08:41:23 PM »
Syonyk - I'm on Pacific power in far Northern California and pay a nominal fee to be connected to the grid for system maintenance.  I expect the new mandate for solar on all new homes in California is going to warrant some grid upgrades in the form of storage to smooth out the demand curve other wise the whole state grid is going to go wonky with the generation/demand imbalance between peak solar and peak usage.  Just not sure exactly what type of storage that will look like yet.

I'm betting on system outages and serious limits on what residential solar can inject into the system after a few of those, but I'm a pessimist.

Quote
I'd be interested to see your system design if you care to share.  Love learning more about this I only know grid tie install so far.

48 panels, ~300W, on east-west A-frames, 45 degrees tilt.  Run those into a pair of FlexMax 100 charge controllers, into a 900Ah 48V lead acid battery bank for storage and the DC coupling, then into a pair of Outback Radian inverters - an 8kW and 4kW, which cover my loads.  Grid power runs out to my new shed for the equipment, into the grid side of the inverters, and power runs out the other side to the house, with panels on either side, both at the shed and at the house, for various loads (high power car charging is going to be grid-side, as would things like a hot tub eventually).  I may put another 6 panels on the shed feeding a smaller charge controller, mostly for shading of the shed to reduce thermal loads in the summer (I'll have an inverter drive mini split out there).

It looks nothing like most solar power installs, and should do what I want very, very nicely.  I'll have an extended solar day, rather substantially improved cloudy day production, and morning/evening peaks that better match our power use - so, again, in a post-net-metering world, I'll be able to self consume with less draw on the storage.  And, likely, my own demand management system to do things like trip the water heater off if demand is currently high.  Plus, perhaps, a generator that the system can kick on - at which point, the state of the power grid becomes a "Oh, nice to know..." thing, as I have nearly unlimited off grid capability with that arrangement.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2019, 12:06:59 PM »
the common net metered systems mean you pay nothing for power while using the grid an awful lot.  Opinions vary on how sustainable this is, though I'll offer that if nobody is paying for the grid and everyone is using it, the grid stops working in an awful big hurry.  Watch California and Hawaii.

My Utility has a grid connectivity fee, which is charged independent of power usage. It's only a fee bucks a month, but if you were to some how use zero watts in a month you'd still have to pay for the right to be connected to the grid. This applies for those with net metered as well. Granted, that fee can often be covered by credits from power delivered to the grid, but the distributed solar has still compensated the grid for the right to be on grid.

I've always figured in areas where grid costs were rising due to the burden of net-metered systems, connectivity fees would rise to meet the costs.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »
My Utility has a grid connectivity fee, which is charged independent of power usage. It's only a fee bucks a month, but if you were to some how use zero watts in a month you'd still have to pay for the right to be connected to the grid. This applies for those with net metered as well. Granted, that fee can often be covered by credits from power delivered to the grid, but the distributed solar has still compensated the grid for the right to be on grid.

I've always figured in areas where grid costs were rising due to the burden of net-metered systems, connectivity fees would rise to meet the costs.

It really depends on the system and the rate schedule - there are a ton of options out there.

I don't get anything but a kWh credit for excess production, so it won't cover those fees.  However, if the fixed fees go high enough, a generator and some propane is cheaper in the long run than high base grid connection fees - so it would encourage going off grid, dropping the benefit of surplus production for many months.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2019, 08:22:45 PM »
What drives the higher grid fees with solar?  Is is paying for thermal plants that can't be turned down / off very well, yet need to be sized for evening use or sporadic solar generation?   OR, is it something unique to grid safety  (beyond the solar system safety ties at the individual home)?

We have solar, and our local utility is quite fine with it-- unlike Nevada and other regions that experience a lot of pushback in getting permits and approvals.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2019, 08:29:15 PM »
Residential rates are a combination of energy fees and grid maintenance fees.

Solar (grid tied, net metered) typically lets you use the grid "for free" because you're not paying any per kWh fees, therefore aren't paying grid maintenance fees.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2019, 08:36:10 PM »
Residential rates are a combination of energy fees and grid maintenance fees.

Solar (grid tied, net metered) typically lets you use the grid "for free" because you're not paying any per kWh fees, therefore aren't paying grid maintenance fees.
Hey Syonyk, if this is in response to my question, I think I was unclear.  We currently pay grid tie fees, of less than $20/month, and I am happy with paying for the maintenance of the distribution power, even if it is just eventually "emergency backup connections".

My question is about places like Nevada, which are actively resisting addtional solar installations, citing costs for the grid...?   I don't understand what those are, beyond a basic connection fee, and why that would pose a barrier to new solar systems.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2019, 02:28:58 PM »
We currently pay grid tie fees, of less than $20/month, and I am happy with paying for the maintenance of the distribution power, even if it is just eventually "emergency backup connections".

That's one of the possible ways to deal with it, though if it's high enough to actually recover costs, you'll just drive people towards grid defection (going off-grid), which is a dreadful idea and leads to collapsed power grids over the long term as you have fewer people paying into the grid (and, really, lower income/lower use people).

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My question is about places like Nevada, which are actively resisting addtional solar installations, citing costs for the grid...?   I don't understand what those are, beyond a basic connection fee, and why that would pose a barrier to new solar systems.

The problem is the way solar is currently done - net metered, grid tie, with no backup - paired with typical residential rate schedules (a cost per kWh that includes energy costs and transmission costs, slowly ratcheting up as you use more to handwave at the fact that you need "more grid infrastructure" if you're using a ton of power).  These rate schedules have been effective and are in widespread use because they're easy to understand, and lead to consistent bills for consistent net energy use in a month, and, quite honestly, because older meters simply didn't allow for anything more detailed (the old mechanical meters were just a counter - they couldn't track peak use or anything).

Net metering was created back in the day when you were dealing with that one kook at the end of the feeder, out by a stream, with a little micro-hydro setup or a homebuilt windmill, or something like that.  It's not a good solution for widespread solar (of the purely grid tied variety), because it more or less allows you to bypass the rate schedule.

So, to use some handwaving numbers:

On a typical sunny day, a house with a grid tied system might:
- Pull 10kWh from the grid overnight and in the morning, for showers, breakfast, hot water, bringing the house up to temperature, etc.
- Push 30kWh from the solar on during the middle of the day while the occupants are at work.
- Pull 10kWh from the grid in the evening for dinner/entertainment/etc.
- Pull the "remaining" 10kWh 6 months later in the dead of winter.

And, here's the kicker: Pay absolutely nothing for the privilege of using the grid in this manner.

Utilities are throwing all sorts of interesting rate schedules against the wall to see what sticks, but fundamentally, if you're going to be grid tied, and use the grid on demand, you need to be paying for the infrastructure - and net metering with grid tied solar means people aren't.

If you change that, then systems don't "pay off" nearly as quickly - which, IMO, is quite fair, because a grid tied solar system relies, quite heavily, on the grid in order to be useful at all.

To go purely off grid, you'd need to add quite a bit of battery capacity (several days of light use is a good ballpark), plus a backup generator, plus enough inverter to handle peak loads.  That adds in the $20k of hardware range, plus installer fees if you don't do it yourself.  It makes a system radically more expensive, though it is then legitimately standalone.

I'm going with a hybrid approach for my system - somewhere in the middle, with a day or so of battery, and I'll eventually be adding biomass heating to the house (a modern woodstove of some variety) for additional heat in the winter when solar is a challenge.  It gives me grid-down ridethrough capability, as well as allowing me to self consume and generally limit my grid interaction if this becomes useful.  I'll be able to feed my evening peak from battery, service overnight loads (at least in the summer) on battery if I want, and will be flexible to optimize my use for whatever rate schedule shows up.

One of the more interesting possibilities, which is a pain in the rear for homeowners to reason about but is pretty fair in terms of grid costs, is a demand schedule - you pay a far lower cost per kWh, but pay a rather substantial cost per peak kW pulled over a given timeframe (look at your local utility for details).  But, if I pull 10kW from the grid peak, I'll pay less in demand charges than someone who pulls 30kW peak (because they need larger transformers/etc).  With batteries, I'll be able to level my loads out massively - so instead of pulling nearly nothing and then 20kW for an hour, I could configure the inverters to limit the grid pull to, say, 3kW - peak.  Anything higher will be serviced out of the batteries and inverters, and if I'm going through a dark week, I can configure the system to charge from the grid at 3kW, again, servicing my loads from batteries when demand is higher.

But all of this means my system is staggeringly expensive compared to a pure grid tied system.  I find this sort of thing interesting, but then I'm also having discussions with both my power company and the local public utility commission about system size limits...


Goldielocks

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2019, 09:56:00 PM »
We currently pay grid tie fees, of less than $20/month, and I am happy with paying for the maintenance of the distribution power, even if it is just eventually "emergency backup connections".

...
And, here's the kicker: Pay absolutely nothing for the privilege of using the grid in this manner.

Utilities are throwing all sorts of interesting rate schedules against the wall to see what sticks, but fundamentally, if you're going to be grid tied, and use the grid on demand, you need to be paying for the infrastructure - and net metering with grid tied solar means people aren't.

If you change that, then systems don't "pay off" nearly as quickly - which, IMO, is quite fair, because a grid tied solar system relies, quite heavily, on the grid in order to be useful at all.

Oh, okay.  I gather what you are saying is that places like Nevada don't actually charge a per day charge for maintenance of the distribution system...   I had thought it was issues about surge power on local grid / neighborhoods.

I do pay about $20/month for the grid tie, and would be fine if they lowered the $/kWh base rate a bit and increased the daily rate.   Locally, a battery does not make sense because we get so little power for 3 months of the year... we make a ton in summer, and then net meter it, not primarily for the evening use, but for a whole other season...  batteries are simply not large enough to store power for later in the year.  Our utility seems to be highly in favour of net metering and solar generation so far.   We don't get rebate like in many US state, but otherwise the utility is quite happy with people producing less than 100% of their annual consumption.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2019, 05:59:47 AM »
And, here's the kicker: Pay absolutely nothing for the privilege of using the grid in this manner.

You aren't "paying nothing" - you are paying the same as everyone else.  You just happen to be a vendor for the utility as well and you sell them electricity that they then sell to others.

Dicey

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2019, 06:52:36 AM »
PTF.  Interesting discussion.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2019, 11:13:38 AM »
Oh, okay.  I gather what you are saying is that places like Nevada don't actually charge a per day charge for maintenance of the distribution system...   I had thought it was issues about surge power on local grid / neighborhoods.

There are a wide variety of issues related to distributed rooftop solar - both financial and technical.  Both of them are significant.

Distribution system maintenance and upgrade costs are more proportional to peak energy demand than they are even for everyone daily.  Someone with a large house or business and 400A service requires an awful lot more distribution system expense than an old home on a 100A panel with a $40/mo power bill because they heat with wood.

Quote
I do pay about $20/month for the grid tie, and would be fine if they lowered the $/kWh base rate a bit and increased the daily rate.   Locally, a battery does not make sense because we get so little power for 3 months of the year... we make a ton in summer, and then net meter it, not primarily for the evening use, but for a whole other season...  batteries are simply not large enough to store power for later in the year.  Our utility seems to be highly in favour of net metering and solar generation so far.   We don't get rebate like in many US state, but otherwise the utility is quite happy with people producing less than 100% of their annual consumption.

At what point does an increased fixed cost make batteries make sense, though?  Would you pay $100/mo for grid tie, with nearly free power after that?  Most people likely wouldn't (I'd be politely telling my power company to take a hike long before then, and would make it up with generator use in the winter).

And, yes, the grid as your seasonal battery is one of those things that is "using the grid for free or nearly so" in my book.

You aren't "paying nothing" - you are paying the same as everyone else.  You just happen to be a vendor for the utility as well and you sell them electricity that they then sell to others.

Well, then, they're badly overpaying me for generated power, if you want to look at it that way.

If I'm signed up as a small generating facility (cogeneration, solar on my hill that's not net metered, etc), I get around $0.0413/kWh generated under one rate schedule, or, on another option, 85% of the avoided energy cost: Avoided Energy Cost is 82.4% of the monthly arithmetic average of each dayís Intercontinental Exchange (ďICEĒ) daily firm Mid-C Peak Avg and Mid-C Off-Peak Avg index prices.

Which works out around the same.

For a net metering system, I'm getting compensated, effectively, at $0.08-$0.12/kWh pushed onto the grid (because that's my price).

I'm not at all a fan of the "buy-all, sell-all" rate schedules in which my solar interconnects grid side of the meter, I get paid the $0.04/kWh for generated energy, and buy it back at $0.08-$0.12, but I'd be perfectly fine getting the avoided energy cost for exports, and buying back power (in the winter, typically), at retail rates.  That's a fair arrangement for all involved.

Or demand metering, or... there are a lot of options, I'm working on a writeup of them.

But net metering, as currently done, is paying end users both the energy and the distribution cost of their energy production, which is not a long term solution.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2019, 12:04:55 PM »
Oh, okay.  I gather what you are saying is that places like Nevada don't actually charge a per day charge for maintenance of the distribution system...   I had thought it was issues about surge power on local grid / neighborhoods.

There are a wide variety of issues related to distributed rooftop solar - both financial and technical.  Both of them are significant.

Distribution system maintenance and upgrade costs are more proportional to peak energy demand than they are even for everyone daily.  Someone with a large house or business and 400A service requires an awful lot more distribution system expense than an old home on a 100A panel with a $40/mo power bill because they heat with wood.

Quote
I do pay about $20/month for the grid tie, and would be fine if they lowered the $/kWh base rate a bit and increased the daily rate.   Locally, a battery does not make sense because we get so little power for 3 months of the year... we make a ton in summer, and then net meter it, not primarily for the evening use, but for a whole other season...  batteries are simply not large enough to store power for later in the year.  Our utility seems to be highly in favour of net metering and solar generation so far.   We don't get rebate like in many US state, but otherwise the utility is quite happy with people producing less than 100% of their annual consumption.

At what point does an increased fixed cost make batteries make sense, though?  Would you pay $100/mo for grid tie, with nearly free power after that?  Most people likely wouldn't (I'd be politely telling my power company to take a hike long before then, and would make it up with generator use in the winter).

And, yes, the grid as your seasonal battery is one of those things that is "using the grid for free or nearly so" in my book.

You aren't "paying nothing" - you are paying the same as everyone else.  You just happen to be a vendor for the utility as well and you sell them electricity that they then sell to others.

Well, then, they're badly overpaying me for generated power, if you want to look at it that way.

If I'm signed up as a small generating facility (cogeneration, solar on my hill that's not net metered, etc), I get around $0.0413/kWh generated under one rate schedule, or, on another option, 85% of the avoided energy cost: Avoided Energy Cost is 82.4% of the monthly arithmetic average of each dayís Intercontinental Exchange (ďICEĒ) daily firm Mid-C Peak Avg and Mid-C Off-Peak Avg index prices.

Which works out around the same.

For a net metering system, I'm getting compensated, effectively, at $0.08-$0.12/kWh pushed onto the grid (because that's my price).

I'm not at all a fan of the "buy-all, sell-all" rate schedules in which my solar interconnects grid side of the meter, I get paid the $0.04/kWh for generated energy, and buy it back at $0.08-$0.12, but I'd be perfectly fine getting the avoided energy cost for exports, and buying back power (in the winter, typically), at retail rates.  That's a fair arrangement for all involved.

Or demand metering, or... there are a lot of options, I'm working on a writeup of them.

But net metering, as currently done, is paying end users both the energy and the distribution cost of their energy production, which is not a long term solution.

That is the going rate for energy right now.  You seem to like to way, way over complicate this and get overly technical to the point that I'm not sure hardly anyone here knows what you are even talking about.  If the numbers work for you, then do it.  If they don't, then don't.  Right now (and most likely well in to the future) we can do net metering at a pretty solid investment.  If that changes, well, I'll go buy a battery.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2019, 12:30:00 PM »
That is the going rate for energy right now.  You seem to like to way, way over complicate this and get overly technical to the point that I'm not sure hardly anyone here knows what you are even talking about.  If the numbers work for you, then do it.  If they don't, then don't.  Right now (and most likely well in to the future) we can do net metering at a pretty solid investment.  If that changes, well, I'll go buy a battery.

Yeah.  Power systems are complicated.  Who knew?

If something is unclear, you could ask for clarification instead of pointing and saying, "NERD!!!! WHO CARES?????" which, effectively, is what you've done.

I don't think discussing ways in which residential generation can fit, both technically, and financially, into the existing power system, is unreasonable for a conversation on solar.

Paying residential retail rates for solar is allowing people with the money to put solar up to use grid services for free, or nearly so, independent of their actual use of grid resources (which grid tied solar uses, extensively).  I don't think this is a long term solution.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2019, 12:35:48 PM »
That is the going rate for energy right now.  You seem to like to way, way over complicate this and get overly technical to the point that I'm not sure hardly anyone here knows what you are even talking about.  If the numbers work for you, then do it.  If they don't, then don't.  Right now (and most likely well in to the future) we can do net metering at a pretty solid investment.  If that changes, well, I'll go buy a battery.

Yeah.  Power systems are complicated.  Who knew?

If something is unclear, you could ask for clarification instead of pointing and saying, "NERD!!!! WHO CARES?????" which, effectively, is what you've done.

I don't think discussing ways in which residential generation can fit, both technically, and financially, into the existing power system, is unreasonable for a conversation on solar.

Paying residential retail rates for solar is allowing people with the money to put solar up to use grid services for free, or nearly so, independent of their actual use of grid resources (which grid tied solar uses, extensively).  I don't think this is a long term solution.

Why couldn't it be a long term solution?  Very few people even have solar or CAN have solar.  It's not like we are moving towards a scenario where nearly everyone makes their own solar with free grid usage.  In fact, as the people continue to move towards more urban/city lifestyles, it becomes increasingly less people who can even have solar panels.

I think you come off as a bit worked up and obsessive about a scenario that is unlikely to even happen.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2019, 12:44:26 PM »
That is the going rate for energy right now.  You seem to like to way, way over complicate this and get overly technical to the point that I'm not sure hardly anyone here knows what you are even talking about.  If the numbers work for you, then do it.  If they don't, then don't.  Right now (and most likely well in to the future) we can do net metering at a pretty solid investment.  If that changes, well, I'll go buy a battery.

Yeah.  Power systems are complicated.  Who knew?

If something is unclear, you could ask for clarification instead of pointing and saying, "NERD!!!! WHO CARES?????" which, effectively, is what you've done.

I don't think discussing ways in which residential generation can fit, both technically, and financially, into the existing power system, is unreasonable for a conversation on solar.

Paying residential retail rates for solar is allowing people with the money to put solar up to use grid services for free, or nearly so, independent of their actual use of grid resources (which grid tied solar uses, extensively).  I don't think this is a long term solution.

If oneís going to get nerdy about frugality/sustainability, this seems like a great forum for it. Iíve been very much enjoying the clear, illuminating discussion of a complicated topic.

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2019, 12:56:12 PM »
Why couldn't it be a long term solution?  Very few people even have solar or CAN have solar.  It's not like we are moving towards a scenario where nearly everyone makes their own solar with free grid usage.

So, California didn't just pass a law requiring solar on the vast majority of new construction?

CA has moved away from pure net metering to their NEM 2.0 system - which still charges you a few cents per kWh delivered from the electric company, even if they're kWh credits.  So if you pull power from the grid in the morning, as I understand it, you still pay some small per kWh fee for that, even if it's out of your kWh credits.

If you want to argue, "Well, net metering is fine, because nobody is going to ever put enough solar on their grid segments for it to be a problem," that's fine - but Hawaii has hit limits already on some of the islands, California is heading that way in an awful big hurry, and I don't think sticking one's head in the sand is a good solution.

Quote
In fact, as the people continue to move towards more urban/city lifestyles, it becomes increasingly less people who can even have solar panels.

O... kay?  I guess if your argument is that people are going to continue spending money they don't have to cram themselves into urban shitholes, great, but meanwhile, in reality... that's a self limiting problem when people either can't afford to do it, or discover that when they have kids, they'd rather have the acre with a yard they can buy for half the cost of their 400 sq ft downtown loft.  There's an awful lot of suburban space we can be putting solar on, and having it interoperate with the grid reasonably, instead of basically leeching from the grid and shoving costs to other people, seems like a good thing to have in place.

Quote
I think you come off as a bit worked up and obsessive about a scenario that is unlikely to even happen.

Power companies are concerned about it and working to mitigate it - why are you asserting it's unlikely?

You're making arguments that don't seem well reasoned, given the actual state of power grids, what power companies are doing, etc.  I question how much time you've spent learning about the deeper issues involved.

AlexMar

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2019, 03:28:28 PM »
Why couldn't it be a long term solution?  Very few people even have solar or CAN have solar.  It's not like we are moving towards a scenario where nearly everyone makes their own solar with free grid usage.

So, California didn't just pass a law requiring solar on the vast majority of new construction?

CA has moved away from pure net metering to their NEM 2.0 system - which still charges you a few cents per kWh delivered from the electric company, even if they're kWh credits.  So if you pull power from the grid in the morning, as I understand it, you still pay some small per kWh fee for that, even if it's out of your kWh credits.

If you want to argue, "Well, net metering is fine, because nobody is going to ever put enough solar on their grid segments for it to be a problem," that's fine - but Hawaii has hit limits already on some of the islands, California is heading that way in an awful big hurry, and I don't think sticking one's head in the sand is a good solution.

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In fact, as the people continue to move towards more urban/city lifestyles, it becomes increasingly less people who can even have solar panels.

O... kay?  I guess if your argument is that people are going to continue spending money they don't have to cram themselves into urban shitholes, great, but meanwhile, in reality... that's a self limiting problem when people either can't afford to do it, or discover that when they have kids, they'd rather have the acre with a yard they can buy for half the cost of their 400 sq ft downtown loft.  There's an awful lot of suburban space we can be putting solar on, and having it interoperate with the grid reasonably, instead of basically leeching from the grid and shoving costs to other people, seems like a good thing to have in place.

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I think you come off as a bit worked up and obsessive about a scenario that is unlikely to even happen.

Power companies are concerned about it and working to mitigate it - why are you asserting it's unlikely?

You're making arguments that don't seem well reasoned, given the actual state of power grids, what power companies are doing, etc.  I question how much time you've spent learning about the deeper issues involved.

NEM 2.0 isn't moving away from net metering, it's making it stronger.  Hardly a good example to show how California is "heading that way in an awful big hurry."  NEM 2.0 is just an updated version of net metering.  It's pretty common practice to modify and update laws/regulations as we grow and learn more.  NEM 2.0 is exactly that and it doesn't, in any way, support your argument.

The point is, you are arguing net metering is going away and talking about having your generator ready for the day, some day, who knows when, some day soon, or way off in the future.... for when that happens.  Apparently in an awful big hurry.  When everything seems to be pointing to MORE net metering and a strengthening of net metering regulations (NEM 2.0).

Syonyk

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Re: Leased Solar...is there anything I can do?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2019, 03:34:37 PM »
NEM 2.0 isn't moving away from net metering, it's making it stronger.  Hardly a good example to show how California is "heading that way in an awful big hurry."  NEM 2.0 is just an updated version of net metering.  It's pretty common practice to modify and update laws/regulations as we grow and learn more.  NEM 2.0 is exactly that and it doesn't, in any way, support your argument.

NEM 2.0 is hardly net metering under the standard 1:1kWh credit definition most of the country uses.  It's a good direction, certainly, but we'll see if it's enough.

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The point is, you are arguing net metering is going away and talking about having your generator ready for the day, some day, who knows when, some day soon, or way off in the future.... for when that happens.  Apparently in an awful big hurry.  When everything seems to be pointing to MORE net metering and a strengthening of net metering regulations (NEM 2.0).

To be fair, my system design is also heavily biased by my preference for uninterrupted power for things like running sprinkler pumps when the hill catches fire...