Author Topic: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?  (Read 46980 times)

Tyler

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2014, 04:39:10 PM »
I think a core issue here is how the price of school has far outpaced its long-term value to the student. Many kids are graduating with huge debt and a worthless degree. Normally this would sort itself out naturally and schools would be forced to lower prices when fewer people apply and the ones that do can't pay, but the system of undischargeable federal loans separates schools too far from their pricing decisions. They get paid no matter what as long as they can push kids into government debt, so they just keep selling college as the be-all-end-all and people keep signing up to the American dream.

One interesting proposal I've heard is to make schools liable for half of the value of loans that don't get repaid when graduates can't find employment. I think that would help make school a lot more affordable pretty quickly, or at the very least it would greatly reduce predatory loan practices.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 04:45:03 PM by Tyler »

Emg03063

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2014, 05:47:20 PM »
One interesting proposal I've heard is to make schools liable for half of the value of loans that don't get repaid when graduates can't find employment. I think that would help make school a lot more affordable pretty quickly, or at the very least it would greatly reduce predatory loan practices.

I like that idea.

mooreprop

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2014, 05:57:46 PM »
I, too, have a co-worker friend who has a bad attitude about the amount of student debt ($80,000) and low salary ($33,000) as a teacher.  I have tried to give her helpful hints, but she really didn't want a solution to the problem.  She just wanted to vent.  I commiserate with her and ask what she is planning on doing and then just listen.  As a result, she has become much more receptive to any ideas that I give her.  She was able to lower her payments, but has mostly private loans so cannot get them discharged using an income based repayment plan.  In Indiana, if you do not make payments on a debt for 10 years, then it is discharged.  She has stopped making payments on the private loans.  Does anyone know if there is any exclusion of this for private student loans? 

AMustachianMurse

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2014, 06:03:42 PM »
Of course it's his fault (shared with his parents).

Let's assume that he had no financial knowledge and nor did his parents. He was totally financially illiterate and just made the best choices he could with the information he had at the time.

Things he did wrong:
1. He failed to educate himself. 15 minutes with Google would have given him enough information to think twice.
2. He picked an expensive course of study without adequate ROI. He could have probably figured this one out just by posting his plan on Facebook. A Magic 8 ball had at least a 50% chance of steering him away from this course of action.
3. He failed to own his mistake, which makes it hard to learn from it.


Since we're little kids, we're supposed to learn from our mistakes. When I was little, I accidentally disturbed a beehive that I didn't see. The bees came out and stung me. Do I blame the bees? No. I learned to watch out for beehives. I may not have known better, but it was still my mistake.

Should there be consumer protections in place to prevent predatory lending to teenaged nitwits? Sure. I don't think it'll stop teenaged nitwits from getting expensive, useless degrees, but at least we could stop encouraging it. If it was hard to get a loan for a Medieval English degree, maybe it would make the idealistic youths of the world take a moment to ask themselves if it's a good idea.

Should there be education in the public school system that actively discourages expensive degrees with a low ROI? Absolutely! Again, it might not stop them, but maybe it would make them pause and think. It would certainly stop them from blaming everyone but themselves.

Holy S@#$ that is a fantastic idea.  Why the hell aren't loan approvals based on majors of study?  Like, have extremely low interest rates on STEM majors, and really high ones on the BAs.  Or...well, I guess a lot of college students (including me) change majors a lot so you would have to restructure your deal.  If I wanted to game the system I would declare a STEM major freshman year, then change it the next semester lol. 

It is a good idea though....

puglogic

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2014, 06:24:36 PM »
I was delighted when credit card statements (some) started to come out with an actual accounting of how much you'd end up paying if you only made the minimum payment.  That illustrated better than anything else the cost associated with your choices. Mortgage documentation has the same thing, total of payments, etc.

Why wouldn't you go the extra mile to educate pre-college kids on the costs of their choices, loan-wise?
--Here is the cost of your education (estimated) in this course of study at this university
--Here are the statistics on what your field will pay when you graduate, and after you're in the workforce for a while
--Here are some statistics on the cost of living ranges (rent, etc.) in this market, so, your monthly expenses
--Here's what your loan payment will be. Will you have enough left at the end of the month to live the life you want?

Just some basic questions and examples illustrating the cost of their decisions would be so valuable. Most 18-20 y/o folks can't visualize that nor bring it all together in that way (like Your Money or Your Life does)

There seem to be people who love to place blame (like your friend) and then there are those who figure out solutions.  I love that you're helping your friend try to shift from one -- which he can do nothing about at this point -- to the other.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.  Many times, they don't really want to change.  And his situation isn't fatal.  It's not like he's living in a hole in the ground in the middle of a minefield.

Ottawa

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2014, 06:31:50 PM »
I was delighted when credit card statements (some) started to come out with an actual accounting of how much you'd end up paying if you only made the minimum payment.  That illustrated better than anything else the cost associated with your choices. Mortgage documentation has the same thing, total of payments, etc.

Why wouldn't you go the extra mile to educate pre-college kids on the costs of their choices, loan-wise?
--Here is the cost of your education (estimated) in this course of study at this university
--Here are the statistics on what your field will pay when you graduate, and after you're in the workforce for a while
--Here are some statistics on the cost of living ranges (rent, etc.) in this market, so, your monthly expenses
--Here's what your loan payment will be. Will you have enough left at the end of the month to live the life you want?

Just some basic questions and examples illustrating the cost of their decisions would be so valuable. Most 18-20 y/o folks can't visualize that nor bring it all together in that way (like Your Money or Your Life does)

There seem to be people who love to place blame (like your friend) and then there are those who figure out solutions.  I love that you're helping your friend try to shift from one -- which he can do nothing about at this point -- to the other.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.  Many times, they don't really want to change.  And his situation isn't fatal.  It's not like he's living in a hole in the ground in the middle of a minefield.

Good idea!  What's shocking to me is that in spite of those ridiculous credit card minimum payment breakdowns people still get in way over their heads...or is it clever marketing to show how little you need to pay to make minimum payment in order to keep up over- spending ?

oldtoyota

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2014, 07:00:23 PM »
To the original post, I say, yes and no.

First off, No. Any society of more than 2 people will have a  distribution of incomes/assets. There may be more elements of skewness one way or another, but by and large, there's a earning level that most people make, and there are tails of the curve in both directions on the income scale.  What matters is the purchasing power of the income distribution. I'd aurgue, that the official Poverty level used in the US, still leaves a person equipped well enough to support a standard of living that's more than a few clicks north of caveman.

Secondingly, absolutely.  You own your station in life. It can't be any other way. As soon as an individual says it's someone elses fault they are where they are, they've abdicated control of their life to that party, and are, in fact, powerless to improve it. Accept that you are the reason you are where you are, and suddenly you're empowered. Sure, the government, or 'the man' or the illuminati may make it harder, but it's still on you to find a way around it. Posting hashtags on facebook is not the answer.

I should note that the person did not call themselves poor, and that was my word choice. Your second point is spot on. This person *is* abdicating control and even responsibility for past choices while indicating "the man" is the cause for this.

Update is that the person is looking for a new job, so there is that.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2014, 07:03:18 PM »
Some have mentioned the cost of education and the original model of those in the moneyed classes attaining higher education.  In Great Scots!: How the Scots Created Canada Matthew Shaw discusses the development of the Canadian educational system from the Scottish one - the Scots did not have the "public" schools the British did, they educated all the children in basic skills, so they were well prepared as colonists in Canada.  Many of the fur traders were Scottish (and made a lot of money) because they had the skills to run a trading post, which the young English immigrants did not.  They also valued education.  "Glengarry School Days" is the story of a few years at a schoolhouse in Glengarry (Ontario) and things like the spelling bee were highlights.  Anyway, although higher education is not free here, it is certainly affordable.  Different histories produce different end points.

chasesfish

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2014, 07:09:30 PM »

The only thing I can think of is that 18 year olds--or even 20 year olds--should not be allowed to get loans for education without some excellent education as to how those loans will affect their future.

Are you suggesting that someone applying for education loans go through the same process as someone applying for a mortgage to purchase a home?  Not a terrible idea, actually.

The idea of degree based lending goes over like a lead balloon...

A four year engineering degree from a four year public school is a good loan

An undergrad and law degree from a private school?  Maybe not

Psychology?  Fund it yourself


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mm1970

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2014, 08:32:00 PM »
Very interesting thread!  In some cases, I would say yes - why on earth did he take out so many loans for poor prospects?

On the other hand, I agree that young brains aren't fully formed.  I picked an expensive school and took out loans that I had no business taking out.  Luckily for me I picked engineering (it pays well) and later joined ROTC (for the scholarship) because I grew up poor and knew a bit about money.

But a lot of young kids don't have those skills, and neither do their parents.

I agree with whomever suggested education for all, but I also agree with "quit yer whining".  I mean, try to change the system for the better, but work with what you have now.  It's my philosophy on my job too.  "Short term goals" and "long term goals".

sleepyguy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2014, 09:54:53 PM »
He's an adult so make adult choices and stop complaining about things HE COULD HAVE CHANGED!  Different if he was born into an abusive household or a raised in a war torn country.

- He CHOSE to go to a expensive school
- He CHOSE to take a degree without good knowledge of future job prospects when done
- He CHOSE to take on loans to do those things

Tell him to spot complaining about the choices he made, control what he can now to make changes.


LalsConstant

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2014, 10:17:11 PM »
This just sounds normal to me.

When I graduated with my bachelors, my first post college job was awful and I made hardly anything and it was generally pretty sketchy there for about a year and a half or so.

Most recent college grads aren't exactly raking it in, in terms of money or personal happiness.  It's a transition time and usually a bad one.  It sounds like he may have paid too much for his degree too.

More facts are needed to really say what's what here.  I knew someone who came straight out of school with an $80,000 salary and $300,000 in student loans who complained like this.

Now the thing is, if she got her spending down to a luxurious and indulgent $2500 a month,  that debt should vanish in about 6 years give or take, doing back of the envelope math here.  And that's assuming no raises, etc.

But she complained she couldn't "make it" and ran up huge consumer debt instead, and made similar complaints and said her student loans should be forgiven and such.

I mean I'm not unsympathetic, we give hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to 18 year olds who don't know beans about the reality of these loans (I wouldn't have) and then we act shocked when they're a tiny bit older and a hell of a lot smarter a few years later and they suddenly turn green in the gills.  Of course they do.

The only reason I avoided this trap was my father though student loans were a big scam, a criminal enterprise really, and wouldn't let me go near them for any reason and this was pounded into me as a young child before I was even in kindergarten.  He may have been extreme but he was a prophet, he saw this bubble coming a mile away.

If I'd not had that experience there's no telling what idiocy I'd have committed.  I did a lot of stupid things at that age, don't get me wrong, but I didn't make it worse by taking on student loans at least.

That's my long winded way of saying everyone involved sucks when this happens.

okonumiyaki

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2014, 12:58:41 AM »
Thing is, paying a lot for a top school, even for a non vocational degree, in the past has been a good deal.

1) Signalling to potential employers (I am clever & ambitious enough to get into top school, plus I'll have to work really hard to pay off my loans)
2) Connections made at college.

I looked at doing an MBA a couple of times - and the value was in the above two things, not in the content of the course.  Having (say) an INSEAD MBA shows that you are willing to invest heavily in yourself, and are clever enough to get in (point 1) and got you a list of acquaintances who would be equally ambitious (point 2)

Four of my close friends at college did classics (I was an engineer).  One is an entertainment lawyer, one a music producer, one a fund manager and one a forward deployment engineer for a very specialist database/ IT firm.  Sure, their knowledge of Greek odes was of no use to them practically, but only the one who went into music wasn't given their start due to the fact they did a rigorous degree at a top school.

NewStachian

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2014, 05:03:04 AM »
There are people who take responsibility for their actions and people who don't. The former can spot the latter from a mile away and will instantly write them off as not worth their time. The best thing your friend can do for himself is look himself in the mirror and say "This situation is 100% my fault. Getting myself out of this situation is 100% in my control." If he can do that, he will be unimaginably successful. But, this is a pretty clear example of paying too much for a degree that isn't very marketable. At this point, write it off as a loss and try to resume build best he can.

Now, for practical stuff: if he went to a prestigious school then the #1 thing he can do is to tap into the alumni base to get a better paying job. The top schools have very high-earning alumni. These successful alumni, however, will invariably be the types of people who take responsibility for their actions and will spot the everything-is-not-my-fault person very quickly, so make sure this is truly out of his system before he tries this step.

The ONLY way to get a job is by networking. Many of us fight this fact because it violates our principles, but it is probably the most actionable piece of job hunting advice I've ever seen.

AMustachianMurse

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2014, 08:53:53 AM »
This just sounds normal to me.

When I graduated with my bachelors, my first post college job was awful and I made hardly anything and it was generally pretty sketchy there for about a year and a half or so.

Most recent college grads aren't exactly raking it in, in terms of money or personal happiness.  It's a transition time and usually a bad one.  It sounds like he may have paid too much for his degree too.

More facts are needed to really say what's what here.  I knew someone who came straight out of school with an $80,000 salary and $300,000 in student loans who complained like this.

Now the thing is, if she got her spending down to a luxurious and indulgent $2500 a month,  that debt should vanish in about 6 years give or take, doing back of the envelope math here.  And that's assuming no raises, etc.

But she complained she couldn't "make it" and ran up huge consumer debt instead, and made similar complaints and said her student loans should be forgiven and such.

I mean I'm not unsympathetic, we give hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to 18 year olds who don't know beans about the reality of these loans (I wouldn't have) and then we act shocked when they're a tiny bit older and a hell of a lot smarter a few years later and they suddenly turn green in the gills.  Of course they do.

The only reason I avoided this trap was my father though student loans were a big scam, a criminal enterprise really, and wouldn't let me go near them for any reason and this was pounded into me as a young child before I was even in kindergarten.  He may have been extreme but he was a prophet, he saw this bubble coming a mile away.

If I'd not had that experience there's no telling what idiocy I'd have committed.  I did a lot of stupid things at that age, don't get me wrong, but I didn't make it worse by taking on student loans at least.

That's my long winded way of saying everyone involved sucks when this happens.

$10 says she's a lawyer from an upper-middle class family.

libertarian4321

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2014, 08:59:49 AM »
Meh, I think he's right. If our nation actually prioritized education, we could make a college education free for every single student in the country. Per this article, it could be done for between $40 and $63 billion.


I'm not sure if the author, who appears to be about 23 years old, and recently graduated from blogger to full time employment status as a writer, is mathematically challenged, intentionally deceptive, or both.  His claim is patently ridiculous to anyone who reads the first paragraph of that article and has even a modicum of ability to conduct critical analysis.

He claim is based on the $62.6 Billion is how much PUBLIC colleges (and only 4-year public colleges) collected from undergraduates in 2012.

To claim that that number is "how much government would have to spend to make Public college tuition free" is, simply, moronic.

First off, this does not include the hundreds of billions that Federal, State, and Local governments already spend to subsidize Public colleges.  From the same source that the mathematically challenged author used, I was able to see that the expenses for Public colleges back in 2012 were actually about THREE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS!  That alone is about 5-times the misleading claim made by the author.

And remember, that's only the cost for public universities.  You make "State U" free for everyone, and a TON of students who are currently going to private schools will be bellying up to the troth for their "free" education, too.  You toss in the cost of private schools, and the total is about another $192,000,000,000.

So we could be looking at about $492,000,000,000 (that's $492 BILLION per year).  And that's based on 2012 data, the costs today are likely well in excess of $500 BILLION per year.

But the nitwit/deceptive author didn't include what may be the biggest cost of them all.  You open up a "government freebie" and tons of people who are not currently in college will be lining up to take advantage- that would likely cost hundreds of billions more per year.  Hell, I'd probably belly up for the freebie, and I'm over 50.

By the time you are done, it's not unreasonable to assume that the "mere $62.6 Billion per year" will end up costing closer to ONE TRILLION dollars per year.

A hundred billion here and a hundred billion there, and pretty soon, you are starting to talk about real money...

If we were to provide free college in the USA, we couldn't possibly afford to do it for every person with a pulse and nothing better to do than spend time "finding himself" while earning a BS (and I don't mean Baccalaureate of Science) degree in Early Uzbek Interpretive Dance.

We'd have to do it like other countries do- make it highly selective and highly competitive.  This is something that most of the "we want free public college education" crowd rarely mentions- the percentage of people going to college in Germany, China, Japan, and other nations that do this is MUCH MUCH MUCH lower than in the USA.  They give free college educations, but ONLY to the academic elite, not every "C" student who can fog a mirror.  That means that a lot of the kids currently using government loans/grants would be left out in the cold, while the bright kids got all the money.  Do you think that would fly?

libertarian4321

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2014, 09:12:26 AM »
... (Unless you are a trust fund baby, in which case, you can go get that degree in Philosophy).

Not a good example.
A degree in philosophy is probably the most valuable non-technical, non-business/law degree one can obtain.

I heard this as well.  I once heard from a reliable source that Walmart prefers to hire greeters with degrees in Philosophy over lesser degrees like Art Appreciation, Modern Dance, Womyn's Studies, or Film.

warfreak2

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2014, 09:15:09 AM »
I think something often overlooked in this debate is the difference between "fault" and "responsibility". For example, crime is exclusively the fault of criminals, and to a large extent it's their responsibility to not commit crime - but because crime has negative effects on the rest of society, we accept that the police also have a responsibility to reduce crime, and that we all have a responsibility to fund the police to do so.

warfreak2

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2014, 09:17:49 AM »
I once heard from a reliable source that Walmart prefers to hire greeters with degrees in Philosophy over lesser degrees like Art Appreciation, Modern Dance, Womyn's Studies, or Film.
Ha! Maybe it's because they think those other degrees are more useful, and philosophy graduates are less likely to later find work elsewhere? ;-)

homeymomma

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2014, 09:41:59 AM »
I was told about 12 million times growing up that college was an expectation, and that liberal arts was by far the best. Only stupid people who didn't care about being intellectual went to non-liberal arts colleges. Going to college was supposed to teach me "how to think" so the degree itself did not matter. I was told to go to the most prestigious college I could get I to, regardless of cost.

Fast forward to age 18: chose a good private liberal arts college far away from home (read: out of state). Got in. Signed up. Filled out FAFSA. Mom said she'd pay the rest. Signed loan documents where my mom marked an X. Started school in the fall, taking with me a handmedown car that I didn't pay insurance or anything on. Bank account refilled whenever I called for more.

Fast forward to graduation: moved in with boyfriend who was still in grad school, and his parents paid for everything. Similar situation with unlimited refilling bank accounts.

Fast forwards to mid-twenties: neither of us has made a $ in our lives. We have to move back in with parents and I decided to get yet another degree because my liberal arts degree was the "wrong direction". My husband is in the arts and has to support us on his own. We learn about finances real quick!

I will not send my kids to college until they have an idea of ow hat they want from life. I will probably not pay for it. I will teach them about money as soon as possible.

I think my case is a good explanation for why there is so much student loan debt. High schoolers just don't have any frame of reference for decisions regarding money that go into six-figures. Only older people with the benefit of a long-term perspective can keep them from making those poor decisions. If your parents don't act in that capacity, the only way to learn is in hindsight.

Not to say everyone under 25 is blameless, simply that it's easy to judge others and ourselves in retrospect. But 17/18 year olds need protection and help and not every parent is capable or willing to do that.

Christiana

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2014, 10:25:59 AM »
The guy was good at school, but now he is finding out that real life is not like school.  He's going to have to start setting his own goals and teaching himself the skills he needs to acquire to reach them.

anisotropy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2014, 10:52:53 AM »
life is cruel and guess what's next? THEN YOU DIE!!!!

all our dreams and ambitions often amount to nothing. for every winner out there thousands lose and suffer so the winner may bask in glory and envy.

how did this happen? well that's simple: it all began with that race in the womb.

so yes, we are all responsible for our own failures for we started it all by winning that race.

life is cruel.

warfreak2

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
Sounds like a double standard.
Uh, yes, it's a double standard. We hold the government to a different standard than we hold private organisations, isn't it obvious that we should? If something is socially beneficial and profitable then we (generally) let private organisations do it, if something is socially beneficial but unprofitable then we accept that the government might have to do it. If something is socially harmful but profitable, we also expect the government to prevent private organisations from doing it.

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2014, 11:42:06 AM »
Quote
It doesn't matter if it is student aid from Uncle Sam or not. You're not the arbiter of who gets loans and who doesn't. I'd much rather see free education than such huge restrictions with obvious downsides. Sorry just getting frustrated with more hyperbole instead of seeing you actually think out your proposal and the consequences.
In only matters if care about taxes being spent in an unmustachian manner.  If it was private money, lend away!

You never said you've give that hopeful student a loan, so why expect taxpayers to give out blank checks?  Sounds like a double standard.

Also, what is free education?  Are there professors that work for free?

Quote
Basically I feel (very passionately) that any education anyone wants should be available.
It is available to anyone.  What you are really saying is that you feel anyone should get a free ride on taxpayer dime.

Red herring. Whether I'd give a loan out or not has no bearing on your crappy proposal. Free as in on the tax payers dime. It seems to me that this is just another instance of some someone saying I don't like something so it should stop. Sorry it is a democratic system. There will be all sorts of shit you don't like that they'll spend money on. And if it's on a philosophy major it is no skin off your back since they have to pay back the money anyway. So I ask again, what is your problem with the current system? Why would you rebuild it in such a way to be restrictive?

It ("free" education) is a hell of a better proposal than yours which limits what people can learn for no other reason that it seems to anger you.

PeteD01

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2014, 11:44:32 AM »
I once heard from a reliable source that Walmart prefers to hire greeters with degrees in Philosophy over lesser degrees like Art Appreciation, Modern Dance, Womyn's Studies, or Film.
Ha! Maybe it's because they think those other degrees are more useful, and philosophy graduates are less likely to later find work elsewhere? ;-)

To the contrary: Last time I looked, a bachelors degree in Philosophy was associated with a substantially higher mid career median  income (81k) than, for example, a bachelors degree in information technology (75k) or business management (72k).
Of course, people with bachelors degrees in philosophy very rarely work as philosophers proper but many go on to become lawyers, administrators, public servants, and even physicians.
One could argue that this record of success in life is due to the smarter ones choosing philosophy to start with but I guess some credit has to be given to the subject itself.
In any case, you are more likely to find Walmart employees with philosophy degrees in the corporate office than at the store entrance.

http://www.philosophy.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/documents/WHY_Major_in_Philosophy_leaflet.pdf
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:49:45 AM by PeteD01 »

warfreak2

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2014, 11:48:12 AM »
I know humour is hard to spot on the internet, but usually "Ha!" and ";-)" are clues.

MrsPete

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2014, 12:00:29 PM »
What I'm hearing is that he isn't progressing in the world as fast as he expected.  He isn't poor -- he's eating, driving a car, living indoors.  But he hasn't made VP, isn't driving a company car, isn't able to jet to Hawaii for Christmas.  That's not poverty. That's being in an entry-level job. 

He complains that "people ought to know" that people like him aren't making it in the world, that they aren't living a rock-star life.  Duh.  Does he think the rest of us come home every day to find that the post man has dropped off piles of cash money?  That's being immature and ungrateful for what he has. 

Could he have made better choices?  Of course! 

I do somewhat agree with the poster who says student loans are just a bad, bad idea all around.  Yes, plenty of research exists to show that 18-21 year olds' brains are still developing, and they aren't genuinely "adults" mentally in the same sense as those of us who are older.  Yes, they are more likely to take risks and are less likely to calculate the consequences.  This isn't debatable.  It's brain research.  Not new research, not questionable research.  Fact.

I hear you when you say, "What's it to you?  It's the individual student who suffers if he has to pay back $$$ on a worthless degree."  But that's not true.  When MANY individuals prosper, the country prospers:  Those people pay more taxes, we as a society pay out fewer benefits, citizens are happy and participate in the world of consumerism.  In contrast, when MANY individuals are not prospering because they're paying back excessive loans (or mortgages or credit cards), then we as a society run into trouble. 

Free education?  Frankly, I say no.  We have free education K-12, and people don't value what they don't pay for.  I see it constantly.  I do think college could be less expensive without loss of quality, but free -- no.  We have financial aid and community college and so many other ways to make college affordable, but the people in the most need don't use many of those.   

« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:04:48 PM by MrsPete »

MrsPete

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2014, 12:11:09 PM »
Wah, wah, wah.
Having just raised a teenager through high school graduation, I have very little sympathy with the plight of the 20-somethings who aren't happy. (Due to their entitlement issues and lack of clear planning.)
The teenager we've raised has a full ride to a decent-enough state university (where she plans to study business with a focus on hospitality), has savings in the bank for incidentals, and is opening her very first roth IRA this week.  She's 19, has worked since she turned 16, and currently makes between $13-$30/hr as a server at a high end restaurant.  She also has side jobs where she's using her hobby/talent to generate a couple thousand extra per year.  She drives a paid for 13 year old car.  She'll have a roommate to save on expenses.  She has a budget, an emergency fund and I can tell -- will be wealthy one day because of her ability to WORK HARD and save even harder.
For what it's worth, I have this same teenager.  My version is 20 and only halfway through college, but she's doing everything I expect her to do at this point in her life. 

However, I also teach high school seniors, and not all teenagers are capable of this level of maturity and planning.  When I was in school I thought some people were just too lazy to do what was necessary, but now as a teacher I see that a good percentage are just not capable academically.  I've got one sweet little girl right now who's taking the lowest level of my class possible, and she's working her butt off, but she's just stupid.  And she doesn't know it.  Another portion is still uber-immature and makes bad choices. 

The upshot:  Your kid and my kid are doing well, and that's great . . . but literally not everyone is capable of doing what they're doing. 

PeteD01

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2014, 12:11:44 PM »
I know humour is hard to spot on the internet, but usually "Ha!" and ";-)" are clues.

I know. My comment was directed at libertarian not at your response. I thought he was serious in a way.

The problem is that many think that philosophy is a prime example of a useless pursuit and we may have some younger readers who may not know how wrong that is.
My advice is: If you think of going into a technical field, law or business and do not like to be told what to do, get a degree in philosophy first - then you are more likely to eventually get to tell others what to do.
 

MrsPete

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2014, 12:12:56 PM »
I think a core issue here is how the price of school has far outpaced its long-term value to the student. Many kids are graduating with huge debt and a worthless degree.
This is a sweeping generalization.  Some degrees are never going to bring big bucks, but that's not true of every discipline. 

EricL

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2014, 12:46:37 PM »
Philosophically speaking, whether you're rich or poor is your decision.  Really.  An African tribesman with enough tools, skills, and health to feed himself and his family plus some others would consider himself rich.  Somebody would have to give him a plasma TV with 130 cable channels to make him feel otherwise.  The average American dropped into the same situation would definitely feel poor. 

I sympathize with today's generation and their absurd college debts.  It's one of those basic assumptions of the 20th century that college education equaled a path to easy street.  And it was indeed true for decades.  But as this was ingrained into the population demand went up.  Increased demand built more schools which started to operate as businesses.  Add the incredible administrative bloat and college education costs soared even as the quality of the education declined.  Careers that required only a HS education demanded a BA.  Instead of searching for the idealistic whole person liberal arts education colleges once had you needed to grab a money making degree to keep up with the loan payments.  So basically anyone majoring in Art, Literature, Language, Theology, History, Philosophy, etc. is just setting themselves up for failure unless they already have major talent.  But the specialist who tracks only on Computer Science, Engineering, and Business is missing out.  This is a serious source of non-mustachians getting on the hamster wheel of consumer debt, work, whine, rinse, repeat.  This is what trapped me when I graduated - and college wasn't as expensive then.  It's easy to feel angry and resentful, like you've been cheated.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

But in the end blame doesn't help you much.  If it did, Pres. Bush and Pres. Obama between themselves would have made every American citizen millionaires.  If you assume responsibility for your life, you will erroneously make yourself miserable over situations out of your control.  But you can engineer outcomes that will far outweigh them.

Ottawa

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2014, 12:54:38 PM »
I sympathize with today's generation and their absurd college debts.  It's one of those basic assumptions of the 20th century that college education equaled a path to easy street.  And it was indeed true for decades.  But as this was ingrained into the population demand went up.  Increased demand built more schools which started to operate as businesses.  Add the incredible administrative bloat and college education costs soared even as the quality of the education declined.  Careers that required only a HS education demanded a BA.  Instead of searching for the idealistic whole person liberal arts education colleges once had you needed to grab a money making degree to keep up with the loan payments.  So basically anyone majoring in Art, Literature, Language, Theology, History, Philosophy, etc. is just setting themselves up for failure unless they already have major talent.  But the specialist who tracks only on Computer Science, Engineering, and Business is missing out.  This is a serious source of non-mustachians getting on the hamster wheel of consumer debt, work, whine, rinse, repeat.  This is what trapped me when I graduated - and college wasn't as expensive then.  It's easy to feel angry and resentful, like you've been cheated.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Looks a lot like the Red Queen Hypothesis to me. 

Quote
Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.
- Lewis Carroll

Carrie

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2014, 01:15:05 PM »

The upshot:  Your kid and my kid are doing well, and that's great . . . but literally not everyone is capable of doing what they're doing.

Ah yes.  Such is life.
Some kids are going to do better than others, whether it is from persistence, intelligence, a combination of the two.  But I don't see how it is possible to level the playing field.  There will always be people who just *don't get it* and there will be others who don't care.  Tons of kids coming out of college are disappointed in their starting out lifestyle, but they're not delivering the goods.  Not a lot of problem solving skills, not a lot of independence --- I blame helicopter parenting & kids never having to endure any hardship at all until they're facing a low paying career and massive student loans. 

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2014, 01:39:10 PM »
Quote
It doesn't matter if it is student aid from Uncle Sam or not. You're not the arbiter of who gets loans and who doesn't. I'd much rather see free education than such huge restrictions with obvious downsides. Sorry just getting frustrated with more hyperbole instead of seeing you actually think out your proposal and the consequences.
In only matters if care about taxes being spent in an unmustachian manner.  If it was private money, lend away!

You never said you've give that hopeful student a loan, so why expect taxpayers to give out blank checks?  Sounds like a double standard.

Also, what is free education?  Are there professors that work for free?

Quote
Basically I feel (very passionately) that any education anyone wants should be available.
It is available to anyone.  What you are really saying is that you feel anyone should get a free ride on taxpayer dime.

Red herring. Whether I'd give a loan out or not has no bearing on your crappy proposal. Free as in on the tax payers dime. It seems to me that this is just another instance of some someone saying I don't like something so it should stop. Sorry it is a democratic system. There will be all sorts of shit you don't like that they'll spend money on. And if it's on a philosophy major it is no skin off your back since they have to pay back the money anyway. So I ask again, what is your problem with the current system? Why would you rebuild it in such a way to be restrictive?

It ("free" education) is a hell of a better proposal than yours which limits what people can learn for no other reason that it seems to anger you.
No need for projection, my indignant friend.

So to sum up, in your world mustachian principles should only apply to the individual, not the state (i.e. other people's money).  Got it.

Let me know when you find those free professors.  I'm "hopeful" you will find them.

Feel free to keep avoiding my points. You want a restrictive system that judges what education is worthwhile to fund. Got it.

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2014, 01:49:33 PM »
Quote
It doesn't matter if it is student aid from Uncle Sam or not. You're not the arbiter of who gets loans and who doesn't. I'd much rather see free education than such huge restrictions with obvious downsides. Sorry just getting frustrated with more hyperbole instead of seeing you actually think out your proposal and the consequences.
In only matters if care about taxes being spent in an unmustachian manner.  If it was private money, lend away!

You never said you've give that hopeful student a loan, so why expect taxpayers to give out blank checks?  Sounds like a double standard.

Also, what is free education?  Are there professors that work for free?

Quote
Basically I feel (very passionately) that any education anyone wants should be available.
It is available to anyone.  What you are really saying is that you feel anyone should get a free ride on taxpayer dime.

Red herring. Whether I'd give a loan out or not has no bearing on your crappy proposal. Free as in on the tax payers dime. It seems to me that this is just another instance of some someone saying I don't like something so it should stop. Sorry it is a democratic system. There will be all sorts of shit you don't like that they'll spend money on. And if it's on a philosophy major it is no skin off your back since they have to pay back the money anyway. So I ask again, what is your problem with the current system? Why would you rebuild it in such a way to be restrictive?

It ("free" education) is a hell of a better proposal than yours which limits what people can learn for no other reason that it seems to anger you.
No need for projection, my indignant friend.

So to sum up, in your world mustachian principles should only apply to the individual, not the state (i.e. other people's money).  Got it.

Let me know when you find those free professors.  I'm "hopeful" you will find them.

Feel free to keep avoiding my points. You want a restrictive system that judges what education is worthwhile to fund. Got it.

The market judges that, as has already been stated.  Maybe the market is just a big meany and needs a big dose of hopefulness.

*looks behind couch*   Nope.  No free professors back there.

No what you are proposing is more restrictive. Back to your original post that started this.

The only thing I can think of is that 18 year olds--or even 20 year olds--should not be allowed to get loans for education without some excellent education as to how those loans will affect their future.

Are you suggesting that someone applying for education loans go through the same process as someone applying for a mortgage to purchase a home?  Not a terrible idea, actually.

Is more restrictive than the "market" is currently. The market as it is set up right now doesn't give a rats ass what your degree will be in, the market doesn't care about your future earning potential which is what you were stating here -

I don't have that list in front of me, but it would probably be similar criteria you would use if a "hopeful student" asked you for $100,000 because they wanted their masters in underwater basket weaving.

So again. Why do you want a more restrictive system that would choose which degrees are worth student loans? Why restrict what education a person chooses to have?

grantmeaname

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2014, 02:28:49 PM »
The only thing worse than young people is people whose social values differ slightly from mine!

Threshkin

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2014, 02:34:04 PM »
Because it may cause hopeful students to think a bit more about what they want to do with their lives and perhaps avoid racking up debt earning a "degree" that makes it very difficult to pay off that debt.

Actually, given enough time the market should take care of this, too.  Why would someone go $200,000 in debt for a worthless degree?  Common sense should take over at some point.  And thankfully, as MMM has pointed out, there are alternatives to the 4 year degree that are significantly cheaper.

Unfortunately "common" sense is a very unusual thing.

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2014, 02:37:21 PM »
Because it may cause hopeful students to think a bit more about what they want to do with their lives and perhaps avoid racking up debt earning a "degree" that makes it very difficult to pay off that debt.

Actually, given enough time the market should take care of this, too.  Why would someone go $200,000 in debt for a worthless degree?  Common sense should take over at some point.  And thankfully, as MMM has pointed out, there are alternatives to the 4 year degree that are significantly cheaper.

So if someone wants to earn a degree as an art history major and they are truly passionate about it they should just abandon it because the debt will be difficult to pay off or that you propose a system which judges their degree as worthless. It certainly isn't worthless to them. Who are you to decide what is worthless or not? What's common sense in the scenarios of all the people who want to contribute to arts or god forbid not be in STEM or business?

The world is made up of all the different people who have pursued all sorts of different degrees. That should never be restricted for some poorly thought out idea of saving people from themselves. It's not your decision to make, it's not anyone's but the individual making that decision. Don't take that way from them. If they think they made a mistake so what? It has given them an opportunity to learn.

The system works as is right now.

anisotropy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2014, 02:57:30 PM »
Because it may cause hopeful students to think a bit more about what they want to do with their lives and perhaps avoid racking up debt earning a "degree" that makes it very difficult to pay off that debt.

Actually, given enough time the market should take care of this, too.  Why would someone go $200,000 in debt for a worthless degree?  Common sense should take over at some point.  And thankfully, as MMM has pointed out, there are alternatives to the 4 year degree that are significantly cheaper.

So if someone wants to earn a degree as an art history major and they are truly passionate about it they should just abandon it because the debt will be difficult to pay off or that you propose a system which judges their degree as worthless. It certainly isn't worthless to them. Who are you to decide what is worthless or not? What's common sense in the scenarios of all the people who want to contribute to arts or god forbid not be in STEM or business?

The world is made up of all the different people who have pursued all sorts of different degrees. That should never be restricted for some poorly thought out idea of saving people from themselves. It's not your decision to make, it's not anyone's but the individual making that decision. Don't take that way from them. If they think they made a mistake so what? It has given them an opportunity to learn.

The system works as is right now.

Sure let the individual make this decision, if it turns out to be a mistake I hope this individual own up to it and suck it up. Knowledge is priceless (actually everything has a price but we won't go there), I am OK if people make decisions if they are prepared to pay the price. If not? well then they don't get to make decisions, as simple as that.

Freedom to choose is a priviledge not a right, some people don't seem to grasp that.

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2014, 03:06:02 PM »
Because it may cause hopeful students to think a bit more about what they want to do with their lives and perhaps avoid racking up debt earning a "degree" that makes it very difficult to pay off that debt.

Actually, given enough time the market should take care of this, too.  Why would someone go $200,000 in debt for a worthless degree?  Common sense should take over at some point.  And thankfully, as MMM has pointed out, there are alternatives to the 4 year degree that are significantly cheaper.

So if someone wants to earn a degree as an art history major and they are truly passionate about it they should just abandon it because the debt will be difficult to pay off or that you propose a system which judges their degree as worthless. It certainly isn't worthless to them. Who are you to decide what is worthless or not? What's common sense in the scenarios of all the people who want to contribute to arts or god forbid not be in STEM or business?

The world is made up of all the different people who have pursued all sorts of different degrees. That should never be restricted for some poorly thought out idea of saving people from themselves. It's not your decision to make, it's not anyone's but the individual making that decision. Don't take that way from them. If they think they made a mistake so what? It has given them an opportunity to learn.

The system works as is right now.

Sure let the individual make this decision, if it turns out to be a mistake I hope this individual own up to it and suck it up. Knowledge is priceless (actually everything has a price but we won't go there), I am OK if people make decisions if they are prepared to pay the price. If not? well then they don't get to make decisions, as simple as that.

Freedom to choose is a priviledge not a right, some people don't seem to grasp that.

A) Who gets to choose who is prepared or not to "pay the price" as you put it?

B) Freedom to choose is not a right? What? So some people should have their freedom to choose taken away from them because they chose something you or someone else deems bad/worthless/economically unwise? If it is a privilege then who is granting said privilege? I strongly disagree with this point. My ability to choose my life is not a privilege to be decided by someone else if my decisions were good or not. It is my right to lead my life as I wish. No one decides that for me.

anisotropy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2014, 03:21:46 PM »
yup, there's a saying that goes something like this "where you stand depends on where you sit."

so believe and advocate whatever suits you the best. life goes on regardless.

matchewed

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2014, 03:24:39 PM »
yup, there's a saying that goes something like this "where you stand depends on where you sit."

so believe and advocate whatever suits you the best. life goes on regardless.

What?

Ftao93

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2014, 03:47:12 PM »
I see a lot of common threads.

I didn't have a clue what I was doing until I was 35.  at 38 I can barely be said to have a positive net worth, though I'm getting there faster than a lot of peers.


My parents didn't teach me about financial matters.  My peers weren't in a place to.  I didn't have the internet :P.

Society as a whole isn't geared to teach you real world skills.  Information is a bit more free now, which I love.

However the person mentioned in the original post just needs to suck it up and move on.  Whining isn't going to solve it.  I'm an expert :P

Latwell

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2014, 05:46:22 PM »
Are people poor because they have "Bad Luck" (assuming you don't want to be poor) having iterated towards a 'negative' direction by making poor* decisions.  Or, can you create your own "Good Luck" by making (on balance) decisions that iterate you towards a 'positive' or 'rich' direction? 


Arrrrrg, my SO was one of the worst offenders... when we first started dating, he constantly told me how he had the worst luck. Every time he tells me he has bad luck, I explain to him how his actions led to his "bad luck". It wasn't long before he stopped blaming bad luck and started working towards better choices.

I work as an auditor. From an auditor's prospective, bad luck is the equivalent of inherent risk... it's a risk that is out of your hands that couldn't be prevented.



gimp

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2014, 06:49:42 PM »
On one hand, you have poor people making poor choices that keep them poor. On the other, you have a system that rewards poor decisions with immediate gratification.

If you start well off, and you end up poor, that's pretty much either rotten luck or bad choices. If you start poor, and you're still poor, you have to fight an incredibly vicious cycle to break out.

What's quite interesting, though, is that entire subcultures here have the mindset of 'poor people', whereas other subcultures completely avoid the mindset and the poor choices, seemingly ignoring the system that pushes them to make them.

For example, consider this issue. You need to find an apartment. However, all the apartments need a year's worth of verifiable residency, and you need to put a deposit down. However, you've been moving from place to place and you rarely have a permanent address, and due to no credit, nobody's giving you a checking account so you can't pay your deposit with a check, and they refuse cash. So no address and no credit means no apartment, and no rent payments and no checking account means no credit, and no credit and no address means no checking account. Then it gets worse: You have no account so you can't get a direct deposit, so your choices are either to take a check that you have to cash using a cashing service (read: liquor store or loan shark) who will take $5 + 2%, or to get a prepaid card that is in cahoots with your employer for kickbacks that charges you a 2% balance fee and $1 per transaction and $2 to check your balance. What the fuck do you do?

(As an aside: Why do you think disability fraud is so rampant? Why do you think that we as in the government put up with it? It's because a $700 a month check permanently removes an unemployed, often unemployable (based in attitude) person from the will-make-trouble list; it's because $700 a month for a fake disability is way cheaper than prison.)

There's a way out of this hole but it requires a lot of hoops to jump through. A seriously large amount. Immigrants do it because we remember standing in fucking bread lines and hoping there would be bread when it was our turn, and hopefully not filled with soggy paper to weigh more so it can be more expensive. (You think that's a joke, and not something that happened over and over again?) Immigrants do it because they've been taught by the system to jump through much bigger hoops, and more of them, and some of them on fire in front of an audience.

And some people who grew up here are able to figure it out, one hoop at a time, and get out of the cycle.

But most people let it become ingrained and it rules their lives, and we can look down on all the poor choices they make, and maybe we should look down on all the poor choices they make, but we have to remember that sometimes the poor choices are the only escape they think they have from the reality of Fuck You.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 06:51:28 PM by gimp »

RapmasterD

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2014, 09:49:15 PM »
What's a poor person? For one, someone who says they are poor. Trust me: I both get and empathize with people who live at or below the poverty line and I get hunger and an inability to pay for shelter, food, clothing....I see it every day. And it really saddens me.

But in THIS case, the POOR element is this person's mindset.

Wayne Dyer: "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."

Here's my gift...a free copy of "Think and Grow Rich" LINK: https://ia600209.us.archive.org/6/items/Think_and_Grow_Rich/think-and-grow-rich-napoleon-hill.pdf

Trust me that "rich" has little to do with money -- money is a mere means of exchange. Abundance has everything to do with mindset.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 09:50:58 PM by RapmasterD »

kite

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2014, 06:01:59 AM »
In some cases,  being poor is your own fault.   But the OP'S friend isn't poor.  He's got a cash flow problem but three incredible assets to leverage in overcoming his situation: health,  an education and a future.   

jrhampt

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2014, 07:09:08 AM »
I think what a lot of people are missing is that this person is 35, not 25.  I'm not surprised he's feeling a little bitter at this point in his life.  However, he's also had time to realize that what he's doing now is not getting him to where he wants to be.  Instead of complaining about it, better to come up with a new plan. 

homeymomma

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2014, 07:50:16 AM »
What's a poor person? For one, someone who says they are poor. Trust me: I both get and empathize with people who live at or below the poverty line and I get hunger and an inability to pay for shelter, food, clothing....I see it every day. And it really saddens me.

But in THIS case, the POOR element is this person's mindset.

Wayne Dyer: "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."

Here's my gift...a free copy of "Think and Grow Rich" LINK: https://ia600209.us.archive.org/6/items/Think_and_Grow_Rich/think-and-grow-rich-napoleon-hill.pdf

Trust me that "rich" has little to do with money -- money is a mere means of exchange. Abundance has everything to do with mindset.

So, my family member who owns a million dollar home, has 3 mill in the bank and travels the world every month is poor because she thinks she is? (true story... She actually refers to herself as "living in poverty").

anisotropy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2014, 10:02:55 AM »
What's a poor person? For one, someone who says they are poor. Trust me: I both get and empathize with people who live at or below the poverty line and I get hunger and an inability to pay for shelter, food, clothing....I see it every day. And it really saddens me.

But in THIS case, the POOR element is this person's mindset.

Wayne Dyer: "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."

Here's my gift...a free copy of "Think and Grow Rich" LINK: https://ia600209.us.archive.org/6/items/Think_and_Grow_Rich/think-and-grow-rich-napoleon-hill.pdf

Trust me that "rich" has little to do with money -- money is a mere means of exchange. Abundance has everything to do with mindset.

So, my family member who owns a million dollar home, has 3 mill in the bank and travels the world every month is poor because she thinks she is? (true story... She actually refers to herself as "living in poverty").

lol, i actually like this mentality. only by admitting the glass is half empty can we lust for more to be in the glass.

omg that was so zen.