Author Topic: I would like to get MMM and other mustachians opinion on outdoorism (case study)  (Read 3650 times)

gmacmilla

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Hi, I am a 3 year resident of Denver, CO. I enjoy the outdoors quite a lot since that is why I moved back here. I spent 2003-2008 here in College.

I am 31, male and married. I'm a mechanical engineer in the automated manufacturing industry, mostly selling machines to the medical industry. I am out of patience with the industry and how wasteful manufacturing is but that is another story. My wife is a supply chain coordinator working for a Denver start up at the moment.

We own (read: pay mortgage on) a property in a nice neighborhood of Denver proper which is expensive. We own 2 cars, a 2007 honda crv and 1996 volvo 850 glt. The only real financial burden we have is the mortgage but it is reasonable to assume we can rent this out after 1 more year here because there is a clause in the HOA aggreement stating we must occupy the property for 2 years before we can rent it out.

OK that's the background, I love outdoor pursuits and am relatively good at them. I can and do climb, bike (both mountain, road and commute), ski, hike and backpack. I regularly do these things too which means a lot of gear and a lot of wear and tear on gear. My gear budget each year seems to increase. I like my stuff to last so I usually consider the nicer options when purchasing gear however I will always look for used on either Pro's Closet ebay store out of Boulder, CO, craigslist or the Wilderness Exchange's outdoor equipment consignment room before buying new.

I have a hard time truly reconciling my desire to be frugal with the allure of new gear, good days in the backcountry nearby and traveling to new, hard to reach far off places. The way I see it, properly enjoying wild areas involves, for one, making safety a priority and two, having the tools to take you outside the normal boundaries. Now, when you look at it barebones, if all had left in me was the ability to walk gently meandering trails, then all i would need is some shorts, a shirt, shoes, a backpack, water pouch and some snacks. Then again, I love to go far out, travel fast, climb high.

I will never find driving to the mall and shopping in general to be a thing i or my wife needs to be doing. In fact i dislike shopping completely. I haven't updated my wardrobe at all in the past few years and only by a new shirt if an old one wears out. This is also, in my opinion, the thing with higher end outdoor clothing and gear. if you buy well, do your research and take care of it, it will last a very long time or forever. But i always feel the need to add a new specialized piece to my gear closet and i generally feel like my cycling kit is also not close to being complete. I ride my bike to work almost every day i work and have just started trying run commuting to add another transportation tool to the quiver.

OK so what do i need you all's help with? Well in your opinion, how much is too much? Should i do all of the sports that I love or should i cut back realizing that my time and also my budget are suffering because every year i need new things?

In general it is much better for the environment to spend time consuming miles or vertical ft. in the outdoors than it is to consume media, food or cheap mass produced consumer goods back in civilization. I have to drive to most trail heads but i hate driving because i hate contributing to our nation's fossil fuel addiction. If i bought a higher mpg car, then i would be spending more money on my hobbies. I buy gear that is most of the time made using petroleum products but i want to have good long lasting comfortable gear. Please, help me figure out where I should draw the line?



human

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Well how much exactly are you spending?

I assume you have three bikes now, no need to get new ones unless the frames crack. The commuter unless you live far from work should last a long time, maybe a new chain, derailleur and tires every once in a while but that's it. For the mountain and road bike, I'm sure you'll be dreaming of new wheel sets and group sets. You need to learn to live with what you have.

I spent a bunch on a bike (light touring) and backpacking gear and I finally one day said "That's it!" it was a lot of money. Now I only spend on backpacking food or if I lose gear (forest fire in Kings canyon made me ditch a stove and pot in a bear locker).

So, first you need to figure out what you are spending on every year and just how useful that stuff is.

Here's a micro level example- I have a sawyer squeeze but I find it tedious so I bought a steripen - did I need it? No, but it was with a gift card, and any new purchase must fit my monthly budget.

I find having a monthly budget for EVERYTHING (housing, food, vacation etc.) helps, I have a ceiling. If I want to buy something, then something else needs to be passed over.

I don't ski or have as many bikes so your gear addiction I'm sure will be worse (living in Denver), plus I love hiking in the mountains and they are pretty far from me so I'm guessing you do this stuff all the time.

Everything has to fit your long term goals. When do you want to stop working? How much money do you need to save to get there, how much a year do you need to put aside?

This isn't a special problem really it needs to be part of the overall long term view.

So what are your long term goals and what is your total yearly expenses?

Do you want kids? How much will they cost?

P.S. I didn't sit down and think this over until 37, so at 31 you are in much better shape.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 05:29:05 PM by human »

driftwood

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OK so what do i need you all's help with? Well in your opinion, how much is too much? Should i do all of the sports that I love or should i cut back realizing that my time and also my budget are suffering because every year i need new things?

Set savings/investing goals that will provide security and freedom for the future.  Beyond that, spend EVERY MINUTE you possible can playing outside, and using quality gear to do it. 

I used to struggle with this because when I'm into something I want to do it all the time.  I felt that I needed to be rock climbing, kayaking, hiking, skiing, mountain biking, canyoneering, trail running etc all the time.  Eventually I realized that I could either do less of all of them, or maybe focus on one at a time.  In AZ I did a lot of hiking/climbing, but got rid of the kayaks and most of the ski gear.  You could narrow what you do down to a few pursuits at a time.  This would limit gear to one discipline's worth for a year or two, and you'd also be able to progress really far in skill.

I'm a gearhead but eventually gave in to buying used gear.  My ski boots fit perfectly and cost me $15 because a rental place was clearing out their inventory.  They fit better than three other pairs of new boots ($150-300 ea) I had used before finding the cheap pair.  I've 'stored' over 10 kayaks and canoes on craigslist.   

*Obviously, buying used climbing gear is a totally separate consideration and should be approached with a lot of caution.

Also, keep in mind that there's plenty of 'poor' outdoorsy types that are somehow living the outdoorsy life almost full-time are able to have a blast despite their lack of funds for new shiny gear.  I plan on trying to emulate them while most of my dollars are sitting in index funds making me more money.

...returns to looking at shiny new gear at moosejaw.com...

TravelJunkyQC

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Outdoor gear is also my only spendypants "vice"... although, I don't consider it a vice, since it makes me truly happy. If you tell yourself before every purchase: "is continuing this sport going to make me happier than putting this money away a FIREing earlier?", I think that's the only thing to do. Buying crap doesn't make me happier, so I don't do it. Replacing my harness and continuing to climb on a regular basis does, and I am willing to work longer for it.

I know it's a vague answer, but if these are activities that make your day better and you happy to be alive, then there really is no question, right?

Laserjet3051

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I feel your dilemma. As a longtime outdoor enthusiast of many sports, one is easily enticed by the allure of beautiful high end gear. Of course some sports are more expensive than others (e.g. skiing), but I think you already know the approach to keeping costs down.

1. Buy for life (high end gear that will last decades if maintained well)
2. Buy gear "off season," clearance racks, gear swaps, used, Craigslist, etc, for maximum discount. Always buy in advance, never when you "need" the item as you will be forced to pay a premium
3. Learn how to maintain gear to keep it in its maximum health
4. Distinguish between gear you NEED and that which you want. A lot of the industry caters to "WANTS." Burn those desires to the ground.
5. Consider renting gear (when available). In some scenarios, renting will work out cheaper than buying.
6. Acquire gear slowly, spread out purchases over a LIFETIME.

I think you can really have it all on a limited budget with the aforementioned strategies in mind. Of course, somethings are preferably bought new, but I have gear for almost all of my outdoor passions (skiing, mountain biking, road biking, snorkeling, scuba diving, rock climbing, surfing, tennis, hiking, backpacking, camping, etc..). Took me a while to collect the gear, but I USE ALL OF IT.

Have fun out there!

ooeei

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Also, keep in mind that there's plenty of 'poor' outdoorsy types that are somehow living the outdoorsy life almost full-time are able to have a blast despite their lack of funds for new shiny gear.

This is a point to remember OP.  Something I've found with products in general, while the "premium" gear may last longer than the budget stuff, it often doesn't last enough longer to justify the price.  Most things these days seem to become obsolete or damaged before being "worn out" so internet torture test numbers don't necessarily tell the whole story.

I don't do much climbing, but it seems to me a $1000 climbing rope can probably get a small nick in it just as easily as a $500 one.  The same can be said for harnesses, carabiners, etc.  Obviously stick with quality components for rock climbing, but even the more economical lines from good companies should be safe. 

It's easy to fall into the upgrade trap with gear.  Get a new tent because it weighs .5lbs less than your current one, and your current one has a small tear in it.  Buy a new flashlight because it has an extra 50 lumens.  I went backpacking with a buddy and his dad, and his dad has had the same tent for about 20 years.  It's not light, but he goes out backpacking more than most people I know.  You have to decide at what point for yourself is something "good enough."  Perhaps look at not using the latest greatest gear as a personal challenge?

The final thing to consider is how much it's actually costing you, and what you're giving up for it.  Is it adding 6 months to your FIRE timeline?  If so, is the upgraded gear worth having 6 less months of total freedom to go do these things?  What about if it's adding 3 years?

honeybbq

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Outdoor gear is also my only spendypants "vice"... although, I don't consider it a vice, since it makes me truly happy. If you tell yourself before every purchase: "is continuing this sport going to make me happier than putting this money away a FIREing earlier?", I think that's the only thing to do. Buying crap doesn't make me happier, so I don't do it. Replacing my harness and continuing to climb on a regular basis does, and I am willing to work longer for it.

I know it's a vague answer, but if these are activities that make your day better and you happy to be alive, then there really is no question, right?

I agree with this. Do the best you can at being thrifty but not at the expense of not enjoying the outdoors.

You live in Denver. There are tooooons of options for used gear or selling old gear to make some cash for new gear. Ski swaps, REI garage sales, regular ol' garage sales and craigslist are full of gear.

You shouldn't need new gear for each sport every year. Skis should last at least 5 yrs if not 10. Tents, the same. Waterproof and store carefully. Take care of your bikes, etc.

tyleriam

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I'd be curious to know what you spend per year to be able to say for sure but in general, hiking, biking, climbing, outdoor stuff is cheap in comparison to a lot of hobbies.  My brother builds and races rock crawlers and spent probably $50K on his last one.  He has a shop he pays on every month and it is nothing for him to order $3,500 of new tires or spend $1000 on a new tool.  Another friend of mine races cars on a track.  He has sponsorship but still spends tens of thousands per year.  He told me once that his sponsors don't even cover the full cost of the travel much less the cars, shop, tow truck & trailer.  A lot of my friends lease deer hunting property, duck hunting property and will travel out west on guided big game hunts.

I will say though, MMM talks about this as a mountain addiction.  He has made reference in several posts.  This is one area where I disagree with MMM because I do think you have to live life and for those of us that love the outdoors getting out there is a big part of life.

Have you ever heard the concept of writing down the top 25 things you want to accomplish in life, ranking them, then throwing out all but the top 5 because they just distract you from achieving your top 5?  I don't know about you but I would put outdoor adventure in my top 5.  I would argue if something is ranked that high then it is a purpose of life not something to be cut out to save money.

On a practical note my suggestion on gear is...install a mandatory cooling period.  Once you decide what to buy, you have researched it thoroughly, wait 24-48 hours before pulling the trigger.  Once the initial excitement wears off I often find myself not 'needing' that thing as bad as I thought I did.  Recent example...went on a backpacking trip and was hot in my bag, came back and immediately started researching lighter weight bags and was bound and determined to purchase one.  Once I found what I wanted to buy I was about to pull the trigger and decided to take a day or two to think about it.  By the next day the adrenaline wore off I thought...what if I just open up my 40 degree bag and use it like a blanket next time, stick my leg out, whatever.  I decided to hold off until I could get home and try it.  I went home, inflated my pad and tried some different configurations...lo and behold I liked it better this way.  Saved 100% on that purchase.

I think having a minimalist mindset helps here too.  I want to own less stuff so having less items that can do more is better than different setups for every season and every adventure.

I'll give you another one.  I wanted to hike a 26 mile trail near me in one day.  My first reaction was okay what do I need to do this?  Pretty soon I was looking at ultra running packs and had convinced myself I NEEDED one, bad.  After scouring reviews and comparing features and prices for a few days I thought...what about my GoLite backpacking pack?  Would it do?  I went home, put my snacks, extra layer, rain layer, and water bottles in it.  I cinched it down with the compactor straps and you know what...worked just fine.  I took out the foam back pad and weighed it and it was about 10 oz heavier than the ultra running packs I was looking at.  Those were so small they could only serve one purpose.  My GoLite pack can dayhike, backpack all year in the South and even ultra day hike 26 miles.  I completed the hike, twice (failed once) with my regular backpack, worked great.


Eucalyptus

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I'm similar, though I've taken a different approach.

In my late teens/early twenties I was into a lot of things. Everything you listed sans the skiiing (wrong part of the world for that), but throw in 4WDing to remote places, kayaking, sailing, caving...

Early twenties I quickly started to cull things. Although I gained pleasure from all of them, I prefered to be able to focus a bit more and be better at fewer things than moderate at a lot.

Early to go were the water activities; least favourite. Incidentally, they are pretty easy to hire for if you have a later urge.

Then went the climbing. Climbing gear is really expensive, especially if its not just indoor top rope climbing, but moving into outdoor sport and trad lead.

Caving was the next after that, though every couple of years I'll do something with Scouts to keep my skills up.

4WD-I get plenty of that for work as an Ecologist. I now own a Land Rover which was my dads, so I can do some trips myself in the future, though its costly so I limit them.

Thankfully, for me, I worked out that I get the most enjoyment out of bushwalking (hiking) and cycle touring. Hiking is pretty cheap. Cycle touring a bit more expensive. Lately I'm limited due to having a small child so I can't do much of the latter, so I'm putting off upgrading my touring bike for probably the next decade! Which is a big cost saver.


undercover

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If it's something you truly enjoy and you know that it makes you completely happy, there's no reason to try to justify it to anyone or question it. The only thing I can think of to help is maybe someone could give you pointers on how to save. Given the lack of details, it's impossible to make suggestions.

I like cycling (any type) and hiking. That's about it. Those activities, in my opinion, produce the most pleasure received for the least amount of money/effort. So, realistically, I just need a couple purpose-fit bikes, and some good trail running shoes. Anything else is completely optional.

You also have to look at this from the perspective of someone from 200 years ago looking at all this gear available now. They'd wonder why the fuck anyone needs all of this crap that's sold now to enjoy the outdoors. Also, look at climbing minimalists like Alex Honnold. You will never go higher or faster than him, yet you probably climb with 10x the equipment that he does. He's definitely one of a kind (uses practically no gear, not advising this) - everything he owns is in the van he lives and travels in (aka: not much). No, you won't be free-climbing half dome anytime soon, but you can learn something from him.

dreams_and_discoveries

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Like most challenges, I like to quantify things.....

What sort of money are we talking about here? $100 a month? $500 a month? $1k a month?

Does it impact your savings rate and plans for the future?

What sort of purchases are we talking about here, are there continual upgrades/optimal items for every single  situation?

E.g. a summer waterproof, a mid-weight waterproof, a heavyweight one, a wind proof waterproof, and one that's good for the snow?

Are you accumulating loads of gear? Or upgrading and selling the old one?

Slinky

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Should i do all of the sports that I love or should i cut back realizing that my time and also my budget are suffering because every year i need new things?

Yes. You should do all the sports that you love. You should also cut back on buying gear if your time and budget and long term goals are suffering because of buying new gear. This is no different than budgeting any other area of your life, except that sometimes people like to justify spending on whatever they want because it lets them do things that make them happy. Yeah ok, but it's not the stuff making you happy, it's doing the thing. Focus on the doing and less on the stuff. Can you do the thing without shiny new gadget? Then you don't NEED it. At least not right now, not yet. That isn't to say you can't have shiny new gadgets and nice to haves, but make sure it stays inline with the budget.

What I do:
I allocate a certain amount for such things. Every month is a decision about what thing is the biggest priority. I have enough activities competing for my funds that I've learned to be pretty harsh about what I really require to do a thing. If I get a shiny new whatsit, I may not have the funds to get something actually necessary to accomplishing a thing I'm working on or I might have to pass up a really fabulous deal on a used item that I would have preferred to have. Basic budgeting and trade offs. You can buy anything, but not everything.

Now I do admittedly spend money outside that budgeted amount for more expensive purchases from time to time. If I do that, it's treated like any other short/mid/long term goal. I decide what exactly I want and figure out what it will cost and then weigh it against all the other goals I have and see where it fits in. If it's really that important, I'll be willing to slot it in somewhere at the expense other important goals. If not, then it clearly wasn't that important. Most things aren't once you consider the ramifications to your big goals like FIRE, buying a house, etc.

My third cost efficient method to fund new purchases is ye olde sell stuff to find the money. Want a new whatsit? Sell the old thingamabobs, combine with discretionary spending money, and voila! New whatsit, budget intact.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!