The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: epower on August 07, 2017, 04:20:05 PM
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
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I feel much the same way. I am sure we are not alone. This is rather common among those who seek FIRE.
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Since a lot of the things you enjoy doing can be done at home, why don't you work for a company that allows employees to work from home? I work from home and I love it! I can cook dinner, have fun with the pets, do yardwork on breaks, watch Netflix while working. I don't see why you can't have friends over for dinner. Even if you have them over during working hours, most likely they will be working themselves and unavailable.
Not to mention the several hours you could save a day on commute and getting ready for work. To be honest, it sounds like you just don't like the concept of work, period.....because none of the things you mentioned you enjoy doing are impeded by a 9-to-5 work schedule. Unfortunately the more fun, none 9 to 5 type jobs which aren't professional jobs, are part time and or very low wage. And as someone who attempted to go the low-wage but happy route, I quickly discovered that not having the income I was used to didn't end up making me very happy and I sucked it up and went back to a 9-5.
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I think for a lot of us, not enjoying the concept of the 9-5 work week is what spurs us towards higher savings rates, lower spending, and FIRE.
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Unfortunately the more fun, 99 to 5 type jobs which aren't professional jobs, our part time and or very low wage. And as someone who attempted to go the low-wage but happy route, I quickly discovered that not having the income I was used to didn't end up making me very happy and I sucked it up and went back to a 9-5.
Would that change if you had a stash supporting you? I.e. would the low-wage happy job be worthwhile if you didn't need the money?
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Unfortunately the more fun, 99 to 5 type jobs which aren't professional jobs, our part time and or very low wage. And as someone who attempted to go the low-wage but happy route, I quickly discovered that not having the income I was used to didn't end up making me very happy and I sucked it up and went back to a 9-5.
Would that change if you had a stash supporting you? I.e. would the low-wage happy job be worthwhile if you didn't need the money?
It would. That is actually my priority, above FIRE. I want to save enough/earn enough passive income that I only need a minimal amount of active income to support my desired lifestyle/savings goals. My dream would be to work a couple part-time jobs, and eventually only seasonal jobs throughout the year, to then working intermittent jobs for fun/ extra spending money/ savings buffer. I actually don't want to FIRE extremely early. My preference is to be able to switch to a lower paying job(s) of my choosing, much earlier than I would be able to FIRE if I kept to the grindstone (I currently work close to 80 hours a week most weeks, due to consistent overtime at my full time job, and a part time job), and coast my way to a somewhat early FIRE. It's not quite the MMM way, admit. But it's my way.
Lots of typos in my original post...meant NONE 9-5 job, not "99 to 5". Stupid voice type.
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It would be good to analyse what parts of the job you don't enjoy. Lack of freedom maybe? Or not enough positive challenge to be motivated. Too stressful when you have someone checking your work. There are many many styles of work. I see some people really own their work. They seem to enjoy rushing after achievements, and get motivation from that. Others like the social dimensions of work and seem like they come to their second living room instead of office.
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So make a lot of money, save 80-90% of your income, and retire within 10 years? Isn't that why you're here?
Regardless of how you trade your time for money, what you're doing has a dollar value attached to it. It's not like your life suddenly changes because you exited the 9-5 system. You're working regardless. It's not like life is unfair just because you're in the system that is the modern work week. The 9-5 gets a bad rap, but it's a decent system that keeps a lot of people busy/happy and they also collect a fair amount of money based on the amount of value the economy places on their services. Regardless of whether you're bound to a modern work-week job or not, I'd say your 100% likely to be working sometime within those hours anyway even if you're self-employed/starting a business. In other words, I don't think you ever really escape the "9-5" if you're still in a position where you're not financially independent.
I think in the interim, lengthening your hours, not shortening or changing them, is the key to true independence from any type of schedule. You "escape the 9-5" just as definitively by lengthening your hours than shortening them. Again, regardless of what you're doing, you're bound to somehow overlap into working some time in that "9-5" zone. And by (considerably) lengthening, I mean spending your current excess of free time (assuming you work under ~45 hours a week) figuring out what it is you can tolerate doing or how to accelerate your time to financial independence. The extra work you do can be either literal work or studying, or both. Even if you only move up to working 70 hours a week vs 40, that still leaves you with SIX hours each day to do whatever the hell you want plus EIGHT to sleep (assuming you can successfully stream your work hours together properly).
Digging deep, it's probably not the schedule or the work itself but simply the person and the desire to control one's time how they see fit, which is (again) why you're here. But, again, you can both accelerate and change that sooner by putting in the extra hours now to eventually achieve freedom from any type of schedule or work. And if you're currently only working what amounts to the standard work week, you really don't have much of an excuse to complain.
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I became disillusioned with the modern concept of the work week when I was a teenager. I observed my mother working during the week and then having to do all these chores on the weekend and it seemed like a never ending cycle. Of course the issue was more complex than my teenage brain was considering but that's what first planted those seeds that I didn't want to do that.
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Working a 9-to-5 mean stability, which can be both a perk and a hindrance. In your case it sounds like a hindrance. But you always have the option of becoming a drilling engineer and going out on jobs for several months at a time and earn a bunch of money all at once. But you might find the instability equally undesirable.
I get where you're coming from though, I get very bored doing the same thing eight hours a day. I would much rather have two very different part time jobs. But unfortunately I also like having a 401(k) and health insurance, you're typically tied to a full-time job. Even more so than the schedule, what I dislike about the typical 9-to-5 job is the amount of time off you are allowed to have, even if you are willing to take unpaid leave, which is almost impossible to do if you just want to go on vacation. At least part time jobs in my experience don't seem to care. When I left the country for two months, several years ago, I had quit my full-time job. My part-time job was like "That's great, see you when you get back. Take lots of pics.".
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I like the English aristocrats' point of view that the "modern work week" is vulgar. It is for vulgar people. You know, those who have to punch a time clock working for The Man.
Haha, I read too many Victorian novels.
Those aristocrats have estates that earn money ( or more likely now, lose money!) and they dont want to associate with those who have to punch time clocks. Hence, the "vulgar people" label.
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Yep, I don't care for it either. As I get older what I want more and more is TIME, and especially free reign over my time to do with it as I see fit. My weekends are more and more precious, and the time I spend at home just putzing away with my family or nesting is my favorite time of all. It makes me want to do that all the time.
Wait, there is a word for that desire, could it be, ..... FIRE? :)
As everyone else said, use that as motivation to get that savings rate up as high as possible so you have the freedom to do whatever you want. I just started a new short-term stint on a reduced work schedule (health/pregnancy related) and I REALLY like the 20-30 hours/week model. I still get to be engaged and do productive stuff but I don't feel like my life is spent running from one chore to the next to the next. Then again, the whole reason that I am on this reduced schedule is because I quite literally can't run from one thing to the next anymore, but that is beside the point. If you can build up your stash to the point that you can drop down to a part-time schedule you may find it much more palatable, even doing the same work.
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If you would prefer a pre-modern work week, there is always the option to homestead.
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Yeah, working pretty much sucks. It's more fun to do things you enjoy. Unfortunately, we all have to do that work to get the capital to no longer have to work. That's the goal for everybody here. Work to invest, grow your investments, and then eventually live entirely off your investments. With the right self-discipline and mindset, you can get to the point where you live entirely off other people's work within a few years. Then you can live like an English aristocrat, which would be awesome.
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I'm with you, epower, but it seems for now that the only way out is through. It's a shame that the Keynesian vision of rising worker productivity shortening the workweek didn't come to pass (hasn't yet?)
From what I've read from others in the Post-Fire section of the forum, achieving FIRE by grinding it out and earning it has a twofold positive effect:
1. Through frugality/living below your means, you develop the skills required to increase the odds that your FIRE will be successful.
2. You enjoy it more because you earned it. Nobody can take away from you what you've achieved.
Also, given some of the sentiment expressed in your original post, some of this from Raptitude may resonate with you; it's one of my all-time favorite blog posts:
http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/
(Gave me some extra motivation when I needed that extra kick to stay disciplined when I first started saving. Look what I'm building an escape hatch from!)
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You don't say?!:)
I've always felt what a waste of time it is to have to go to work for someone else and line their pockets. Order me around, the nerve of these people! Really, why do we agree to give up our lives for a "livelihood" to enrich others?
In a way we all decide on our own standards of living - the life we are willing to accept or go off and reject. Sometimes we forget that we do have choices, if we become brave enough to pursue a different path.
Job security is overrated, but so is living the dream - there are always consequences and trade offs, the trick is to find a solution that makes you happy or at the very least, are satisfied enough to live with.
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I really don't mind work. In fact, I really can't envision myself ever NOT working. Sure, that work will hopefully become decoupled from money someday in the future, so that I can work on what I find most fulfilling without having to consider income, but I actually LIKE working..... IF it's on my terms. It's just the crappy full-time schedule, the long commute, the complete lack of flexibility, and being accountable to someone else for such large chunks of the day that makes it suck.
Today, for example.... I was off from my "real job." I tutored two elementary-school siblings for 1.5 hours this morning and spent 2 hours working on a freelance project this afternoon. The rest of the day was mine. I made $166 today... and yet it didn't feel like work in any way, because it wasn't that awful, structured 8-5:30 garbage combined with over an hour of commuting and feeling guilty every time you need to use the stupid bathroom.
I want flexibility AND I want to work. Our savings are still too low and our spending is too high for me to go solely freelance.... but days like today give me a glimpse of what the future could look like.
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So make a lot of money, save 80-90% of your income, and retire within 10 years? Isn't that why you're here?
An 80-90% savings rate would only require 3-5 years of work to comfortably retire.
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http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/
Great article really, just a small nit:
I don't think the lifestyle has been designed, or "built in a very calculated manner" by malicious US companies; rather it's the result of natural selection: business that do this succeed more often, others fail, with a perverse effect unknown to them.
I often say that when you optimize for a success metric without regard for other factors, you just might get what you optimized for, but with adverse effects.
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With you, OP. I'd work longer if there were more options. Why can't I work 30 hours a week, for example, in a professional job in my field? I'd stay years longer if I could just find a work/life balance that fit me better.
But then again, this feeling is quite common in the younger age groups. Perhaps the millennials will invent other options...
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I was going to say something very similar to Spartana. Maybe it's time to redefine "work" instead of "the work week". Look for jobs that have nothing to do with desks and cubicles.
Being a tour guide, for example, means you get to travel. Yes, you have a gaggle of ignorant tourists to herd around, but you still get to see Venice and Rome. Or maybe you work on a cruise ship where you put in long hours for mediocre-at-best pay, but you get to see the world and experience the crazy, intense life of living on a boat with all your coworkers. Or maybe you work on crab fishing boats where there is an undeniable level of intensity. Perhaps you sign on with a program to each English abroad for a year. Not a huge money maker, but you get to experience living in a foreign culture, and exploring the local community, and hopefully traveling a bit in the semi-local areas. Or maybe you love white water rafting so you become a guide, or maybe you have some pretty intense survivals skills so you teach those and take people out in to extreme nature and guide them. Or maybe you love wine and love sharing knowledge of wine with people so you go to work for a vintner, harvesting fruit during the season and working in the tasting room.
Yes, all of these things still involve work. You are still selling your time and working on someone else's schedule. But it doesn't sound like you have any [legal] options to avoid that, so rethinking the kind of work you do while you are saving up so you don't have to do it perhaps makes the most sense.
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I think working MORE can help you out, and to earn more money, instead of working less. Hear me out. I have the typical boring 40 hour a week job, really 40 to 60 hours since we do overtime every single damn week.... but five years ago I started a part-time job which I love, and is active and completely different from my full-time one. Strangely enough, even though I didn't reduce my hours at my other job, having that pt job to look forward to and identify with made the other work bearable. Sometimes changing jobs can help too. I eventually got out of the 9-5 into another 9-5, working from home, and now it's much more than bearable, I almost kind of like it.
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I think working MORE can help you out, and to earn more money, instead of working less. Hear me out. I have the typical boring 40 hour a week job, really 40 to 60 hours since we do overtime every single damn week.... but five years ago I started a part-time job which I love, and is active and completely different from my full-time one. Strangely enough, even though I didn't reduce my hours at my other job, having that pt job to look forward to and identify with made the other work bearable. Sometimes changing jobs can help too. I eventually got out of the 9-5 into another 9-5, working from home, and now it's much more than bearable, I almost kind of like it.
Do you mind me asking what your part time job is ? I'm kinda at that space now .. Still 3-5 years to go , my office job ranges from " I don't mind it" to " I hate today " mainly because my boss is a b&@tch .
I (re) discovered fitness and am doing a few classes every week ( love it!) and wouldn't mind an active part time job.
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^^^ I work in the education department at a zoo. I give tours, presentations, and sleepovers… Bonus I get paid for a solid 5 to 6 hours of sleep 1-2x per wk and free or deeply discounted access to local and nationwide attractions. It gets me out of the house, and I've always been interested in nature, so it feeds me in that way. And even more than that I can see it is a second career (planning on getting a science degree in the future), and am getting a major head start in work experience.....when I do eventually quit my job, I will have nearly a decade experience working in Zoo/aquarium setting. So the monetary benefit is nice, but getting parrallel experience and skills, can be just as if not more beneficial.
It can be hard working so much, but as long as you are doing a job you love enough that you would volunteer to do it (that was my criteria in deciding to get a 2nd job.), it will be worth it.
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I secretly hoped it was a zoo :) that's cool, thanks for explaining.
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Honestly, the bolded is bullshit. You have been sold a bill of goods. Yes, some people find their passion and never want to quit. Most of us don't. And really, that's a heavy burden for a job to carry, isn't it? It doesn't just need to put food on the table and a roof over your head, but it has to ignite your passions and keep you entertained as well? I can't think of anything I'd want to do 40-60 hrs/week, every week, that wouldn't get boring after a while.
The sad truth is that exciting, fun jobs tend to either have high barriers to entry (e.g., NBA player) or pay for shit (tour guide) -- basic supply and demand, right? If you want to make big money, you need to either have massive skills that others don't, or have a tremendous tolerance for things that others find dreadfully dull. So your options are:
1. Find a "fun" job, like tour guide for a cycling company, and accept that you will get paid for shit and be working for a fairly long time.
2. Find the best-paying job that you can tolerate, work as hard as you can and save as much money as you can as quickly as you can so you can FIRE as soon as you can.
3. Create your own business/be an entrepreneur if it's truly the 9-5 and not the "working for a living" that is getting you down.
4. Do some combination of the above to achieve a balance of boring "work" and fun "life" that you can tolerate.
Sorry. If there were a quick fix, everyone would be doing it already.
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^^^ I work in the education department at a zoo. I give tours, presentations, and sleepovers… Bonus I get paid for a solid 5 to 6 hours of sleep 1-2x per wk and free or deeply discounted access to local and nationwide attractions. It gets me out of the house, and I've always been interested in nature, so it feeds me in that way. And even more than that I can see it is a second career (planning on getting a science degree in the future), and am getting a major head start in work experience.....when I do eventually quit my job, I will have nearly a decade experience working in Zoo/aquarium setting. So the monetary benefit is nice, but getting parrallel experience and skills, can be just as if not more beneficial.
It can be hard working so much, but as long as you are doing a job you love enough that you would volunteer to do it (that was my criteria in deciding to get a 2nd job.), it will be worth it.
That is so cool! Thanks for sharing.
And, there are jobs that pay decently that are not perfect 9 to 5s. It is easier to coast in a 9 to 5, though. Depending on your field becoming a consultant would give more flexibility in when you are working, but can be a trade-off on a per-hour basis as you have to spend time generating clients and winning work.
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9-5 is pure bullshit and society would be better off without it IMO. My DH just negotiated a raise and asked to work 1 day a week from home so it's a start. Read 4 Hour Work Week and see if you can apply those technique to your life.
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This topic is the anthem of my soul. I love the work that I do. I love the people I work with. I definitely love getting paid and amassing a fortune.
I searched for years for any sort of reasonable compensation model for my type of work that was less than a full-time position or had any kind of flexible scheduling, and just couldn't find it. Not saying it isn't out there, but in ten years of looking I found not even so much as a posting for that work in my field. Despite everyone I talked to about it agreeing it would be nice! Employers acknowledging that they needed a little bit of work from someone like me, but couldn't quite afford a full time position! Like WTF YO! THAT SOLUTION IS SO OBVIOUS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD!
Several coworkers regularly joke about how we'd be more than happy to do 40 or 50 hours in a straight shot, just to have the rest of the time, work Monday 4am to Wednesday 4am or some shit. I'd happily do 4-12's, give my employer a free extra 8 hours a week, to have that third day off.
It's just a nonstarter. My manager from about 5 years ago put it like this:
We all work for someone else. Someone owns this whole thing. And you fill a slot, same as a truck in a fleet, or a crane, or any other piece of equipment. There's an inherent risk in having more trucks than you need, there's maintenance, there's breakdowns. Just letting you fill the slot is a huge investment, and the only way they're getting a return out of you is if you work as much as you can. Now practically, they've learned that much more than 40 hours your work product starts to break down, so they figure that's fine. But you start talking like 40 is too much, they'll figure you are already broken and replace you. Start talking like five days is too much, they wonder what you're up to on that off time, no good certainly.
I went into the wrong industry to have this particular hangup. Fortunately, I found this MMM place and learned to stash as much cash as possible, so I get to step out of the grind at the end of this month, and dedicate myself full time to figuring out a life that doesn't have to conform to the arbitrary timelines of others.
The 40 hour work week is the single largest reason I'm quitting entirely. I expect the five-day work week to be the biggest hurdle to finding part time work. As in, maybe I could find a job working 20 hours a week, but it's likely still to be 5 four hour shifts.
I don't get it at all. Is the only thing keeping everyone else from injecting heroin the fact that they have to be at work within the next 48 hours? Is there some secret cause of the great depression where in September '29 the country tried a national four day workweek? Was "everyone has Friday off" what actually killed JFK? But for no-work-Mondays Rome would still stand?
In particular it would be more bearable if mgmt recognized how stupid it was and just released you when you were done. As a salaried employee I find it highly offensive to be required to track my time so closely in the first place. I never got paid for the extra hours I worked during crunch time, what the fuck does it matter if I cut out after my last meeting of the day when I literally have fuck all to do until 5?
That was a huge benefit to having so much saved, the past 12 months or so were much more relaxing because I would just sneak out once I finished everything I needed to do. No real fear of getting caught/punished, worst thing it would mean is a slightly leaner retirement.
3 more weeks. So close I can taste it, starting to have trouble sleeping from the excitement.
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I wonder if OP could do 4 10 hour days or similar. That may help. Many companies do that or may be willing to if asked.
Good luck OP!
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This topic is the anthem of my soul. I love the work that I do. I love the people I work with. I definitely love getting paid and amassing a fortune.
I really identify with your post! It's heartbreaking to be passionate about something, but then start almost hating it because you have to sit your ass on a chair 8 hours/day doing it. Why can't we CHOOSE how much we work and get paid proportionally? "It doesn't show dedication!" Arrrg.
The pragmatic answer is that you're drastically less useful to the company with less hours worked. Less available to help others, to discuss project directions.
Some employers are flexible with hours as long as you do a good job and you're in the office during core hours.
You can start a consulting business, once you have a big enough stash to lower the risk.
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I don't mind having a set schedule, my main gripe is the amount of time you can take off, and how difficult it is to go on a leave of absence. At most companies, you can only have a leave of absence if something terrible happens, but sometimes you need a leave of absence to prevent something terrible from happening…like a mental breakdown.
I think one of the things that make people seem dejected when they start working, is there are no more "breaks". Spring breaks, summer breaks, winter breaks. In America it is the worst. Most jobs you can't get away more than 10 to 12 days per year (and that includes sick time). If you like to travel, you are screwed. You either have to take ineffective little cruises within your hemisphere for international travel, or not take a single day off all year, just to spend a week overseas, because most of the other week is travel time to and from. We have the longest to get anywhere else, but the shortest amount of vacation time.
Every year we have an employee satisfaction survey, I put down the same thing. I advise that they have a chance to be really innovative, and invite and retain quality employees, by offering something in a competitive way, that very few other companies offer…more time. My suggestion is, during slow parts of the year, offer a bonus break; a week long. Only a certain number of slots are available at that time, and it is unpaid....so it gives the people what they want, and saves the company money, and allows it to staff around business need....something full-time companies don't tend to do....they just over-hire, then layoff. Rinse, and repeat.
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This is a very familiar feeling to me, too. Part of my "problem" is that I spent my 20s teaching English overseas, routinely working 18-25 hours a week, while still saving a bit of money (say $5-10K per year, most years). That kind of "ruined" me for a 9-5. That said, I've been in a 9-5 admin job for the past 8 years (back in the US) and it has gotten increasingly easy to accept.
One thing that helps is that my job pays pretty well (for education) and isn't particularly stressful or demanding. Thus, I can frequently do non-work tasks (basically anything that I can do on the computer / phone) while at work. I also am very grateful for the benefits I get, especially now that I have a daughter. We have great health insurance, great retirement options, etc. I also love the access to the university library. Oh, and I joined the university gym and I swim for ~20 minutes everyday during my lunch break. Love that!
And while my wife (who is still a teacher) has a more flexible schedule, during the semester she probably works more hours than I do, and she definitely takes more work home than I do (although she's in the office fewer hours than I am). I love the fact that I don't take work home, don't check my phone / email outside of the office (although colleagues do), and that isn't possible as a teacher (the first part, anyway).
Plus, it's easier for me to get days off during the semester than for my wife, which is handy both for visiting family, going on retreats, going on field trips with my daughter, etc. All that being said, my plan is to switch to a 9 month teaching position once DD is in elementary school. It'll be a pay cut of ~50% ($80K-$40K) but I'll have 4 months off a year, and a more flexible schedule.
I guess my main point, though, is that I never thought I'd be this OK with having a 9-5 job. When I started here (8 years ago) I was very resentful, but I found things to be grateful for and ways to tweak it to make it work better for me.
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Oops, I started a very similar thread to this yesterday "Name your least fav thing about working"!
My first foray into working was babysitting (getting paid to eat people's snacks and watch better cable than what I had at home, heck yes!), and then part time restaurant work. I actually loved working as a server. It was physically demanding being on your feet for 6hr shifts, it was fun to interact with customers. If it wasn't busy, you went home or "If there is time to lean, there is time to clean." Every shift was different, and my shift schedule was all over the place (some early mornings, some late nights), which I loved. Oh and it was stupid easy to "do a good job" and you were immediately rewarded with tips for doing a good job. And the pay was way better than working in retail! Checked all of "must have buckets" as a 16 year old.
Then the summer after my first year of university in engineering I shifted to a co-op type position, sitting bored in a windowless room making copies of procedures, working 8-5 every day...for less money I was making as a server.
And yet here I am many years later, sitting for 8+ hours a day, writing procedures. (Ok fair, now I make more than a server). I always go back to those few summers I worked as a server, and wonder if that impacted my current outlook on "being chained to my desk" at work.
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This is my primary driver for FI. so i can tell my boss i'm doing whatever the hell i want when i want or i'm gone.
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I became disillusioned with the modern concept of the work week when I was a teenager. I observed my mother working during the week and then having to do all these chores on the weekend and it seemed like a never ending cycle. Of course the issue was more complex than my teenage brain was considering but that's what first planted those seeds that I didn't want to do that.
I felt the exact same way seeing my divorced mom-of-3 kids slave away at work all week and then slave away at home all weekend. Nope don't want that life! But instead of leading me to not want to work, it lead me to not want a 9 to 5 type of job. So I followed a career that lead to "adventure, excitement, and really wild things" instead of a traditional job. So maybe the OP should look into doing something in exotic or unusual places, doing unusual things that interests and excites them and falls far outside of a 9 to 5 routine, commyte, and normal office setting.
I grew up seeing the same thing, single mom with 5 kids! Apparently, my take-away from the experience was to decide to not have kids - they just seemed like a lot of work! :) .... and some of them turned out great (me!) and some of them caused nothing but trouble for many years.... in the end, we all turned out to be good, solid, functioning adults, so all is good.
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...I was reading a book about a woman Marine Archeologist who spent her life diving old ruins and wrecks thru out the world. ..... Right then I knew I wanted the lady in the books kind of life and not my dear sweet mom's life or a regular 9 to 5 office job.
The big question is...are you a Marine Archeologist???
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Is the only thing keeping everyone else from injecting heroin the fact that they have to be at work within the next 48 hours? Is there some secret cause of the great depression where in September '29 the country tried a national four day workweek? Was "everyone has Friday off" what actually killed JFK? But for no-work-Mondays Rome would still stand?
Love this post. Still can't figure out how in the knowledge and technology economy, we need the same number of hours as we did during factory days. So soulless. I would keep working forever if it was 25 hours a week, and I am efficient so I could get everything done during that time. With the extra hours it just gives people time to think up meaningless meetings and tasks, without contributing anything toward the work's goals or increasing anyone's output.
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@Spartana, AMAZING!
And,
Still can't figure out how in the knowledge and technology economy, we need the same number of hours as we did during factory days. So soulless.
It is actually pretty simple math:
If a company, using technology, reduces the amount of hours needed by lets just say 40 hours per week, they hire 1 less person, company profits ~55k per year (times this by full "cost savings" of technology). Profits feed the share holders, and the CEO gets more money. Hence why the income gap is significantly larger than the pre-tech era.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/a-giant-statistical-round-up-of-the-income-inequality-crisis-in-16-charts/266074/
I particulary like figure 2M and 2U. notice the graphs start to take off ~1993 approximately when the internet and computer use became mainstream.
I'll go cry in my cubicle now.
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...I was reading a book about a woman Marine Archeologist who spent her life diving old ruins and wrecks thru out the world. ..... Right then I knew I wanted the lady in the books kind of life and not my dear sweet mom's life or a regular 9 to 5 office job.
The big question is...are you a Marine Archeologist???
No but I went in the Coast Guard and spent most of my life at sea and we'd occasionally drag up something....interesting...from the depths ;-). Oh and I did get to dive so that's almost like being a Marine Archeologist...almost.
That is awesome spartana. I am convinced that most of us rarely change from what we were/liked, as children. When I was starting to think about what would I be doing if I wasn't working in insurance, a job I got just so I could have health insurance and an income, I always think back to what I wanted to be when I was younger, what inspired me, what my natural inclinations were....and am letting that guide me.
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The old timey work week was every hour in the day. Literally. Farmers would work every hour of daylight and then be out at night with stock. Craftspeople would work every hour of daylight and into the night by candle. House staff would work all day, every day, plus be on call at night and get one day off a month. I think the modern work week rates pretty well, myself. We have it easy.
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This topic is the anthem of my soul. I love the work that I do. I love the people I work with. I definitely love getting paid and amassing a fortune.
I searched for years for any sort of reasonable compensation model for my type of work that was less than a full-time position or had any kind of flexible scheduling, and just couldn't find it. Not saying it isn't out there, but in ten years of looking I found not even so much as a posting for that work in my field. Despite everyone I talked to about it agreeing it would be nice! Employers acknowledging that they needed a little bit of work from someone like me, but couldn't quite afford a full time position! Like WTF YO! THAT SOLUTION IS SO OBVIOUS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD!
Several coworkers regularly joke about how we'd be more than happy to do 40 or 50 hours in a straight shot, just to have the rest of the time, work Monday 4am to Wednesday 4am or some shit. I'd happily do 4-12's, give my employer a free extra 8 hours a week, to have that third day off.
It's just a nonstarter. My manager from about 5 years ago put it like this:
We all work for someone else. Someone owns this whole thing. And you fill a slot, same as a truck in a fleet, or a crane, or any other piece of equipment. There's an inherent risk in having more trucks than you need, there's maintenance, there's breakdowns. Just letting you fill the slot is a huge investment, and the only way they're getting a return out of you is if you work as much as you can. Now practically, they've learned that much more than 40 hours your work product starts to break down, so they figure that's fine. But you start talking like 40 is too much, they'll figure you are already broken and replace you. Start talking like five days is too much, they wonder what you're up to on that off time, no good certainly.
I went into the wrong industry to have this particular hangup. Fortunately, I found this MMM place and learned to stash as much cash as possible, so I get to step out of the grind at the end of this month, and dedicate myself full time to figuring out a life that doesn't have to conform to the arbitrary timelines of others.
The 40 hour work week is the single largest reason I'm quitting entirely. I expect the five-day work week to be the biggest hurdle to finding part time work. As in, maybe I could find a job working 20 hours a week, but it's likely still to be 5 four hour shifts.
I don't get it at all. Is the only thing keeping everyone else from injecting heroin the fact that they have to be at work within the next 48 hours? Is there some secret cause of the great depression where in September '29 the country tried a national four day workweek? Was "everyone has Friday off" what actually killed JFK? But for no-work-Mondays Rome would still stand?
In particular it would be more bearable if mgmt recognized how stupid it was and just released you when you were done. As a salaried employee I find it highly offensive to be required to track my time so closely in the first place. I never got paid for the extra hours I worked during crunch time, what the fuck does it matter if I cut out after my last meeting of the day when I literally have fuck all to do until 5?
That was a huge benefit to having so much saved, the past 12 months or so were much more relaxing because I would just sneak out once I finished everything I needed to do. No real fear of getting caught/punished, worst thing it would mean is a slightly leaner retirement.
3 more weeks. So close I can taste it, starting to have trouble sleeping from the excitement.
My heart is breaking for you right now. I hadn't seen this post until now, after I found out about the hardship you are currently going through. You will get back to this spot, I know it.
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So make a lot of money, save 80-90% of your income, and retire within 10 years? Isn't that why you're here?
An 80-90% savings rate would only require 3-5 years of work to comfortably retire.
You and i have a different definition of 'comfort', but that cool.
To OP: Imagine how much it would suck if you had compulsory military service, like we used to and many societies still have. Work that might not only bored you, but might actually defy you very principles (imagine being the worlds greatest boxer, a pacifist muslim and being forced to train to kill people or face prison. You have choices. Use them to the best of your ability and willingness to take risk.
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Or, you could find a way to work for yourself.
But then, you'll probably find yourself getting lazy, taking a 2.5 hour bike ride along a scenic river during the middle of the day, and then logging onto MMM.
Fortunately, I've made peace with that.
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So make a lot of money, save 80-90% of your income, and retire within 10 years? Isn't that why you're here?
An 80-90% savings rate would only require 3-5 years of work to comfortably retire.
You and i have a different definition of 'comfort', but that cool.
In absolute spending rate maybe, but in terms of time to FI the only thing I was getting at was that it wouldn't take 10 years with that savings rate.
Your point about military service is a very good one, we really are lucky to live here and now.
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Since a lot of the things you enjoy doing can be done at home, why don't you work for a company that allows employees to work from home? I work from home and I love it! I can cook dinner, have fun with the pets, do yardwork on breaks, watch Netflix while working. I don't see why you can't have friends over for dinner. Even if you have them over during working hours, most likely they will be working themselves and unavailable.
Not to mention the several hours you could save a day on commute and getting ready for work. To be honest, it sounds like you just don't like the concept of work, period.....because none of the things you mentioned you enjoy doing are impeded by a 9-to-5 work schedule. Unfortunately the more fun, none 9 to 5 type jobs which aren't professional jobs, are part time and or very low wage. And as someone who attempted to go the low-wage but happy route, I quickly discovered that not having the income I was used to didn't end up making me very happy and I sucked it up and went back to a 9-5.
This is exactly why I'm working on FIRE only to the point to ensure my survival. As soon as I get enough to cover my basic existence for life, I'm fine with having a low-wage, fun job that doesn't require a 9-5 routine. I strive to overachieve at achieving the bare minimum!
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
Work a 12-hour rotating shift for a while then get back with me about how unpleasant 9-5 M-F is.
But seriously, keep working and socking away the $$. Then you'll get to write your own schedule.
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I don't get it at all. Is the only thing keeping everyone else from injecting heroin the fact that they have to be at work within the next 48 hours? Is there some secret cause of the great depression where in September '29 the country tried a national four day workweek? Was "everyone has Friday off" what actually killed JFK? But for no-work-Mondays Rome would still stand?
A reduced work week wouldn't seem to affect productivity negatively
http://www.newhistorian.com/looking-back-three-day-week/2405/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/three-day-weekend-injustices-modern-working-life
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
Work a 12-hour rotating shift for a while then get back with me about how unpleasant 9-5 M-F is.
But seriously, keep working and socking away the $$. Then you'll get to write your own schedule.
Anecdotally, the nurses I've talked to who switched from 9-5 to four 10s prefer the longer shifts and three day weekend
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Anecdotally, the nurses I've talked to who switched from 9-5 to four 10s prefer the longer shifts and three day weekend
I've worked 4 10s, I'd take it again in a heartbeat. Zero hesitation.
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9-5 is pure bullshit and society would be better off without it IMO. My DH just negotiated a raise and asked to work 1 day a week from home so it's a start. Read 4 Hour Work Week and see if you can apply those technique to your life.
I think the ideas in the book make perfect sense, but there's no incentive to implement them in my job. I'd just be bored for even longer each day while waiting for 5 o'clock to come around. Now, if I worked from home it would be a totally different story.
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Yeah, 40 hours a week is generally arbitrary, wasteful, and silly. My girlfriend solved that problem by working for herself. Some weeks she works 0 hours, some 10 hours, and some 105 hours. I'd love to do the same, but I'm stuck in a 9-5 for now.
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
Work a 12-hour rotating shift for a while then get back with me about how unpleasant 9-5 M-F is.
But seriously, keep working and socking away the $$. Then you'll get to write your own schedule.
Anecdotally, the nurses I've talked to who switched from 9-5 to four 10s prefer the longer shifts and three day weekend
Yes, I agree. 4- is a dream schedule for me, too. I'm talking about working days, then nights, then back to days. It kills the soul. The only thing worse than 12 hour rotating is 8 hour rotating, days, nights and swings which I've also worked.
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
Work a 12-hour rotating shift for a while then get back with me about how unpleasant 9-5 M-F is.
But seriously, keep working and socking away the $$. Then you'll get to write your own schedule.
Anecdotally, the nurses I've talked to who switched from 9-5 to four 10s prefer the longer shifts and three day weekend
Yes, I agree. 4- is a dream schedule for me, too. I'm talking about working days, then nights, then back to days. It kills the soul. The only thing worse than 12 hour rotating is 8 hour rotating, days, nights and swings which I've also worked.
I currently work four 10-hr days. (Plus an extra 5-10 hours every 3rd weekend.) I think it would be pretty pleasant if I didn't have such a long commute, but I currently commute 45 minutes each way. So I'm basically away from home for 11.5-12 hours on the days that I work. Combine that with having a young kid (kindergartener) at home and it's hard to do much beyond just surviving on workdays. Exercise? Yeah right. Keep the house clean? Barely. Do laundry? Occasionally. I like having that extra weekday off, but sometimes I feel like having an extra 2 hours on my work days would go a long way towards giving me some balance in my life. It's hard to build healthy habits in 3 days/wk.
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I enjoy my job, but I'd love to go to 3-4 days a week at some point in the future. I worked 3 days a week briefly in 2012 (while studying, so it wasn't exactly time off), and enjoyed it immensely.
Hopefully once I get a decent enough nest egg and a paid off home, I can pursue that goal of going part-time :)
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I'm 28 years old and have been working full time since graduation from university when I was 21.
In those seven years, I've had jobs that I've enjoyed more than others, but deep down, the concept of the 9-5, Monday-Friday (sometimes Saturdays) work week just doesn't do it for me. People say "oh, you just need to find something you love doing, then you will enjoy work" but really, I just don't.
Something I enjoy doing is riding my bicycle, cooking food and home, having friends over for dinner, reading books and pottering around in my vegetable garden. A bit of travel thrown in there too. As soon as I'd monetise any of these things (growing vegetables for resale, importing and selling bikes, being a cycling coach) the fun just evaporates.
I simply hate the 9-5 Mon-Fri concept but I'm stuck doing it to get money to do things I actually want to do and keep a roof over our heads (my partner and soon to be children) and food on the table.
Work a 12-hour rotating shift for a while then get back with me about how unpleasant 9-5 M-F is.
But seriously, keep working and socking away the $$. Then you'll get to write your own schedule.
Anecdotally, the nurses I've talked to who switched from 9-5 to four 10s prefer the longer shifts and three day weekend
I work 12 hour shifts, 8 days in a row and then get 6 days off. Most of the people I work with do this. There are a few that prefer to do 4 days on with 3 days off. but most of us prefer the extra time off.
Longer breaks between working is far better
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I work a 9/80, with every other Friday off and 1 day each week telework. Not a bad schedule only having to be in the office max two days in a row. The 9/80 is by far the best schedule I've ever worked, including my month on (of 12 hour days) and month off in a previous life doodblebugging around the world's oil fields.
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Like others have said, most of us on this forum want to retire early because we don't find the working life to be ideal.
That said, I think your worldview of working might be a bit narrow. I personally love the M-F, 9-5 life, because it's wayyyy easier than what most people in the world do! I used to work minimum wage 7 days a week, usually 10 hour days with a 15 minute lunch break, and that was with no retirement plan, no health insurance, and no vacation time.
Sure, being financially independent and retired is easier than working, but in the grand scheme of things, working 5 days a week for a salary is pretty freaking cushy. I'd try focusing on how lucky you are, while saving as much as possible for early retirement, to cope with how you feel. Most people in the world would kill for a nice and easy 9-5.
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Well yeah, that's why it's called "work" and not "fun," and they have to pay people to do it.
If it was super enjoyable they wouldn't need to pay people.
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I personally love the M-F, 9-5 life, because it's wayyyy easier than what most people in the world do! I used to work minimum wage 7 days a week, usually 10 hour days with a 15 minute lunch break, and that was with no retirement plan, no health insurance, and no vacation time.
Good point, this is a good thing to keep in mind. When I got my first 9-5 job I was so excited. I get to know exactly what days and hours I'm working, AND I get Saturday and Sunday off EVERY WEEK?!
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And this is half the reason I am working towards FIRE. Although, in recent years, i've found some flexibility in my job, working from home 2 days a week, and it helps a lot! Anyway, you aren't alone.
From a perspective side, when I was in college, I thought, "sheesh, working people have it so easy, they just go to work and then can eat dinner and watch TV when they get home." As a college student, I'd go to class, one of three of my part time jobs, be ready to collapse, but need to stay up to study... So it's not so bad. It just gets old.
Then you throw in having a family and life just gets a little crazy, but with the right attitude, it's lovely despite the crazy.