I'm FIRE, woman I'm talking to has student loans

[Villanelle]

I also happen to be a woman, like the majority of people on this forum. And I have a law degree, so I know the law. The fact is, the law is egalitarian.

Thank you for your perspective and input.  I agree the intent of the law may be such, but in its application things are quite different.  I'm not saying that is always because of the law, just that that is often the outcome. 

Have a good day,

-fixie
[/quote]
It's only going to be the outcome if the man has more income than the woman.  Which, surprise, surprise, he usually does, because pay discrimination is alive and well decades into legislation on equal pay and women earn 80% or less of what men do.  And through historical and current financial inequalities men own the majority of assets too.  All an equal division of marital assets is doing is remedying something that other laws requiring equality have failed to do.  So cry me a river if the distribution of income and assets on divorce is less unfair to women than economic conditions in general.
[/quote]

And all of this is also an example of ways the patriarchy hurts everyone.  While the states I'm familiar with generally have a specific formula for determining child support and alimony (unless the parties come to some other agreement in their own) and that is inherently gender-blind, if men want to make sure there is not the slightest hint of gender-preference in matters of finances or custody, then they should be shouting the loudest for equal pay, for hiring and pay equality, for reasonable childcare and family leave policies, and for other issues that cause women to be seen as care-givers and men as financial providers.  They should be appalled at the number of women who left the workplace during Covid because someone had to care for the kids and manage the remote school, and it was them either because they already made less or because as women they were seen as the default for anything involving child-rearing.  They should be applying pressure and influence in their workplace to make sure women are being promoted fairly and equally and that no one is punished for getting pregnant.  They should be able to name their child's pediatrician and be taking their children to at least many of those appointments.  Their child's teacher should know them by sight. 

Funnily enough though (/s) the same men who rent their garments about sexism in custody and support are usually silent at best about--and often the perpetuators of--all of these other major issues for women that trickle down and end up having some negative affects on men, too. But those are the same situations that mean a judge may be more likely to give more/better custody terms to a mother than a father.   If you've had almost no involvement in these day-to-day parts fo child-rearing, why wouldn't a judge give more custody to the other parent? 

If you want to be treated equally, it means not just demanding that the stuff that doesn't fall in your favor get changed.  It means pushing for all of it to be changed, even the stuff from which you benefit.  And this is true on both a micro level in a specific relationship, and a macro level in the laws and workplaces. 

[Rusted Rose]

if men want to make sure there is not the slightest hint of gender-preference in matters of finances or custody, then they should be shouting the loudest for equal pay, for hiring and pay equality,

Absolutely. It's nice and convenient for them to forget the centuries-old hostile environment for women that is still operating in 2021.

Your point is also my answer to the current trend in dating for people to split checks equally. You want a woman to pay equally for that date? Then advocate for her income to be equal.

[Metalcat]

if men want to make sure there is not the slightest hint of gender-preference in matters of finances or custody, then they should be shouting the loudest for equal pay, for hiring and pay equality,

Absolutely. It's nice and convenient for them to forget the centuries-old hostile environment for women that is still operating in 2021.

Your point is also my answer to the current trend in dating for people to split checks equally. You want a woman to pay equally for that date? Then advocate for her income to be equal.

And for paid maternity leave, separate paternity leave (so as to normalize men taking time out of the workplace), and mandate affordable high quality childcare.

Basically, fight for the world to be a place where women aren't financially dependent on men, and men will no longer have to worry about financially supporting women.

Until then, yeah, there might be more women out there seeking financial support from men than men seeking financial support from women, but even with the inequality persisting, that is rapidly changing.

Suffice to say, it's fine to give someone advice to watch out for people who want to leech off of your money, but there is no actual NEED for that advice to be gendered, because it happens to women with wealth as well. It may not happen to as many women since women with wealth are fewer, but when a woman does have wealth, it happens A LOT.

I am connected to hundreds of high earning women, and I can't tell you how many have ex husbands who have purposefully throttled their own careers to maximize their spousal and child support benefits. If you make 75K and your ex wife makes 500K, why work your ass off to get to 100K when you can bank on monthly payments larger than your paycheque?

So really, we should be giving general advice to anyone with wealth or high income, regardless of gender: if you have assets, be savvy and protect them appropriately, and be aware that some people could target you because of them.

[fixie]

If you want to be treated equally, it means not just demanding that the stuff that doesn't fall in your favor get changed.  It means pushing for all of it to be changed, even the stuff from which you benefit.[/quote]

I'm afraid I just don't have the energy for all that.  We're talking about sex here right?  Not gender.  Sex is the hardware, gender is the software.  As an individual, I am just as powerless as anyone else to change what's messed up about "the patriarchy."  It's women's turn to screw everything up.  Arguing is exhausting too, and I'd much rather be happily single than come home to a different boss.
OP should still protect his interests and listen to his instincts.

I wish you well.

[Villanelle]

If you want to be treated equally, it means not just demanding that the stuff that doesn't fall in your favor get changed.  It means pushing for all of it to be changed, even the stuff from which you benefit.

I'm afraid I just don't have the energy for all that.  We're talking about sex here right?  Not gender.  Sex is the hardware, gender is the software.  As an individual, I am just as powerless as anyone else to change what's messed up about "the patriarchy."  It's women's turn to screw everything up.  Arguing is exhausting too, and I'd much rather be happily single than come home to a different boss.
OP should still protect his interests and listen to his instincts.

I wish you well.
[/quote]

I think we are talking about both sex and gender.  Anyone of the female gender likely faces workplace discrimination, but so to do those of the female sex.  If they are female sex and male gendered, then the discrimination they face is likely two-fold, of course. And someone of the male sex but female gendered will face both the same issues as those who are female in both categories, as well as the discrimination of being transgendered.

And you aren't powerless to change things.  There are many small things you can do that take essentially no power and almost no energy.  Trying not to post inherently sexist messages when your point would be just as accurate without that element would be a great way to start!

[fixie]

If you want to be treated equally, it means not just demanding that the stuff that doesn't fall in your favor get changed.  It means pushing for all of it to be changed, even the stuff from which you benefit.

I'm afraid I just don't have the energy for all that.  We're talking about sex here right?  Not gender.  Sex is the hardware, gender is the software.  As an individual, I am just as powerless as anyone else to change what's messed up about "the patriarchy."  It's women's turn to screw everything up.  Arguing is exhausting too, and I'd much rather be happily single than come home to a different boss.
OP should still protect his interests and listen to his instincts.
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I wish you well.

I think we are talking about both sex and gender.  Anyone of the female gender likely faces workplace discrimination, but so to do those of the female sex.  If they are female sex and male gendered, then the discrimination they face is likely two-fold, of course. And someone of the male sex but female gendered will face both the same issues as those who are female in both categories, as well as the discrimination of being transgendered.

And you aren't powerless to change things.  There are many small things you can do that take essentially no power and almost no energy.  Trying not to post inherently sexist messages when your point would be just as accurate without that element would be a great way to start!
[/quote]

How did the OP's questions devolve into this?  I love how some of the women here can say what they want without being labelled sexist, but I say something like "protect yourself, and follow your instincts," point out that, indeed, there are evil women, and women jump all over me, demanding I change the world for them.  Could it be you also have bias?  Of course I have a male perspective to offer the OP, what other perspective would I have, given my experience?  My advice is just as valid to the OP, perhaps more so, than yours.
Many here seem to want equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity.  Hilarious.  Guess what? As much as you might like it to be different, men and women have different abilities, weaknesses, strengths, talents, drives, desires, and imperatives. 
The same women will opine "where are all the good men?" or lament, in their later years, that men don't look at them anymore.  Well, we ran as fast as we could, as far as we could, and stayed happy.  OP would do well to watch the progression of the "discussion" he gave birth to, lol.  Those are the types of pointless arguments he is in for.

Even still, I wish all of you a very fine morning.  This has been more enlightening and entertaining for me than for the OP.

-fixie

MOD NOTE: Please stop with the sexist generalizations under the guise of "advice."

[Villanelle]

If you want to be treated equally, it means not just demanding that the stuff that doesn't fall in your favor get changed.  It means pushing for all of it to be changed, even the stuff from which you benefit.

I'm afraid I just don't have the energy for all that.  We're talking about sex here right?  Not gender.  Sex is the hardware, gender is the software.  As an individual, I am just as powerless as anyone else to change what's messed up about "the patriarchy."  It's women's turn to screw everything up.  Arguing is exhausting too, and I'd much rather be happily single than come home to a different boss.
OP should still protect his interests and listen to his instincts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I wish you well.

I think we are talking about both sex and gender.  Anyone of the female gender likely faces workplace discrimination, but so to do those of the female sex.  If they are female sex and male gendered, then the discrimination they face is likely two-fold, of course. And someone of the male sex but female gendered will face both the same issues as those who are female in both categories, as well as the discrimination of being transgendered.

And you aren't powerless to change things.  There are many small things you can do that take essentially no power and almost no energy.  Trying not to post inherently sexist messages when your point would be just as accurate without that element would be a great way to start!

How did the OP's questions devolve into this?  I love how some of the women here can say what they want without being labelled sexist, but I say something like "protect yourself, and follow your instincts," point out that, indeed, there are evil women, and women jump all over me, demanding I change the world for them.  Could it be you also have bias?  Of course I have a male perspective to offer the OP, what other perspective would I have, given my experience?  My advice is just as valid to the OP, perhaps more so, than yours.
Many here seem to want equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity.  Hilarious.  Guess what? As much as you might like it to be different, men and women have different abilities, weaknesses, strengths, talents, drives, desires, and imperatives. 
The same women will opine "where are all the good men?" or lament, in their later years, that men don't look at them anymore.  Well, we ran as fast as we could, as far as we could, and stayed happy.  OP would do well to watch the progression of the "discussion" he gave birth to, lol.  Those are the types of pointless arguments he is in for.

Even still, I wish all of you a very fine morning.  This has been more enlightening and entertaining for me than for the OP.

-fixie
[/quote]  Complete strawman.  No one is calling you out for posting "protect yourself and follow your instincts".  In fact, IIRC correctly Malcat even made it clear that the agreed with that sentiment.  As do I.

And no, I would never opine "where are all the good men".  I know there are plenty of them.  Men who respect women, who don't buy into ridiculous stereotypes, who are financially responsible, compassionate, and thoughtful. So you are wrong on that account, too.

And I certainly don't and won't ever lament that "men don't look at me anymore".  Another misogynistic (and inaccurate) comment.    But I'm sure you will continue to refuse to see that and claim you are being attacked for... something. 

[MrMoneySaver]

Have you met her in person yet? I fear you're getting way ahead of yourself. When you're together in person, she may well find that she doesn't like the way you held a door for her, or didn't hold a door. Or the type of socks you wear, or the way you wear them. Or the smell of your deodorant. Female attraction is very fickle. Next thing you know she's on a different homestead with a different guy who hit more attraction triggers, or missed a crucial tripwire. And then her debt won't matter (to you).

[Sailor Sam]

Guess what? As much as you might like it to be different, men and women have different abilities, weaknesses, strengths, talents, drives, desires, and imperatives.

SUCH AS, the ability to fix quotes. Easypeasy for my little tip-tapping girl fingers. Zoom!

[Jenny Wren]

Female Human attraction is very fickle.

FTFY...

[Metalcat]

s]Female[/s] Humanattraction is very fickle.

FTFY...

Yup.

I've had plenty of dudes approach me because of the way I look and then back slowly away because of my personality. lol. I often refer to my appearance as "blatantly false advertising."

[chasesfish]

I'd relax some.

They're her loans, not yours.

Given that both of you have low cost of livings and her income is low, she'll likely be on Income Based Repayment for 25 years then the balance of the loan will be forgiven.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

You're right, it's not appropriate for me to dig into her financial situation in detail, and I can get the sense I need of her responsibility and character, without doing that.   She seemed a little bewildered about her debt and had offered to look at it with me so I thought I could help her understand it, but that may not be a good idea right now.

There's some chance it's a teachable moment, but a teacher role might be an awkward start to a relationship.  If she doesn't understand her debt, take that as how she is now.  Maybe she'll change, and maybe you'll date years from now.  But I wouldn't view this as something you will change about a person you have just started dating.

And to be clear, I wasn't against general questions about finances.  You could volunteer your general financial habits ("I pay off my credit cards in full each month") to find out her thinking on debt and money.  There's also a risk that someone over the phone is just following your lead, which is why I think it's better to see how they act in person.

We had been talking about a possible future together, which is why we got here so fast.  I think I'm prone to rushing, but also I don't like the idea of stringing someone along if it's not really going to work out.  My approach has been, if one is looking for a long term partner and not just a fling, why not look at all the big things early before you develop too much love and bonding, so that if it's not going to work long term, you can let go more easily?  Maybe this leads to jumping to conclusions based on the wrong things, and maybe y'all are right that it's better to get to know someone slowly before talking about a future. .

When you rushed before, were you seeing them in person?

Personally, someone talking to me on the phone for a month who wants to move in raises red flags.  Do you feel that way?  Have you had this work out well before?