How to deal with a crazy mother in law?

[beege]

Just looking for some advice for dealing with a crazy family member. Significant amount of back-story follows:

My SO and I have been dating for 2 and a half years and have lived together for about half that time. We are, in our minds, married but due our feelings on marriage and due to certain family events we have been waiting for the right time to officially tie the knot.

My SO's mother comes from a war-torn country and divorced her first husband over there; her second husband (my SO's father) was KIA in the conflict there. She then moved to the USA, married a former marine, but eventually also divorced him as well (but that may have been for more practical, than emotional reasons - due to VA benefits). The point I'm trying to get across is that she has had a hard life as she raised 4 kids without much support from any husband. My SO's mother kept in touch with her third husband after the divorce but he died several years ago and she has not seen anyone since - she is about 60 at this point. In lieu of a husband she has become very close to my SO - especially when they lived together after my SO graduated college, but at the same time her mother has been very domineering, as such is her nature. It is my opinion that that domineering attitude, while useful for surviving all that she has been though, is also somewhat responsible for a not-so-close relationship with some of her other children.

My SO's mother's financial situation is not very good. She has no retirement savings and cleans houses for a living. Just about any money she makes, she uses to give to others in her family and those in need. As such my SO is determined to take care of her mother in her old age. To that end she has bought a condo for her and is paying for the mortgage and HOA fees. My SO's mother lives near two of her other children between the 4 of them she usually sees someone at least once a week or more. My SO has done what she can to set her mother up with a good life. My SO has been, of late, trying to get her mother to retire, but she is a very strong-willed person. We figure, if it makes her happy to work, then let her. We just don't want her to feel like she has to work if she doesn't want to.

When my SO moved in with me, she did a separating of finances with her mother. She got a separate bank account, her mom retitled a car in just my SO's name as a gift, etc. Since that point though my SO and myself have made significant strides in mustachianism. She negotiated the ability to work from home and I bike to work. After almost a year of this style of living we decided to consolidate down to one car. Weighing our options we decided selling my SO's car would make the most sense. She discussed the prospect with her mother since we wanted to give her all the money we got to put towards getting my SO's mother a new, reliable car for her housekeeping work (her current car is getting a bit long in the tooth). My SO's mother dismissed the idea, saying that my SO would be giving up too much independence, and she's concerned we're not committed to each other enough, etc.

This is especially strange since my SO's other siblings lived with their current spouses for long periods of time before getting married, but she never said anything about that. It's an irrational argument that feel comes from the fact that it's her last daughter and she's grown too distrustful of men over a lifetime of not having a dependable man to be with.

Anyways we decided its our life, we are adults (we're 27), we know what we are doing so we went ahead and sold the car last week, right before a family beach vacation. We then went on the vacation and everyone, my SO, my SO's mother, my SO's siblings, etc all had a wonderful time staying together at the beach. We didn't say anything that week because we didn't want to upset our SO's mother with the news, so we were planning on just showing up at my SO's mother's place some time in the future, handing her a stack of cash from the car sale and explaining our reasons for selling the car and wanting her to take the money. Well that didn't work out so well because while we're still driving home from the beach, my SO's mother arrived home first, saw some car insurance paperwork from the sale of the car that arrived - (my SO's mailing address is still at the condo she owns) and called us to ask what happened to my SO's car. I told her we sold it and was immediately reprimanded because in her words: "it was a gift so I should have had a say in what happened; I can't believe you kept this a secret from me; You have committed a great injustice" etc. She then got off the phone and we haven't heard from her since.

My SO is now really worried because she and her mother usually talk at least daily, usually more and we haven't heard from her mother in about a day, despite leaving several messages. I told my SO, that we have nothing to apologize for, because at the end of the day, it's just selling a car - that my SO OWNED - so what's the big deal? I told my SO that her mother might (subconsciously, or not) try to play the guilt card on her, but she has nothing to apologize for; at the same time we are concerned my SO's mother's well-being. My SO's mother is very strong-willed and we are afraid she might do something drastic like leave the condo. She is not a woman you want to cross. At the end of the day, we just want her to be happy, but we also want to be happy.

Wow that was quite a ramble. If anyone is left reading, do you have any thoughts, hints, suggestions, or comments of any kind?

[Daleth]

Relax. Continue with your original plan (of going over there with a stack of cash--or at least giving her the money, though perhaps a bank account in her name would be a better place to put it). The only thing you can do with difficult people is just continue living your life, making as good of decisions as you can, and acting on what you think is right... then they will usually adjust to you. If not, they're crazier than most, but it doesn't sound like she's that nuts. Just stop trying to control her life (e.g. whether she works) and come up with some set answers to her concerns (e.g. no, selling the car didn't cost your SO her independence and yes, you are very committed and wow look at the weather today, does she think it's going to rain?).

[Blackadder]

If the car was as a gift from your mother in law to support your SO's independence in your marriage, I somehow understand that she's cross with you. How about, if your mother in law doesn't want to take the money, you put it in a bank account in your SO's name, so that she can always use it in an emergency? This might still be somewhat in line with your MIL's original intentions, at the same time saving you both the $$$ of maintaining a second car.

[Exflyboy]

Wait a minute!

Your (SO) is paying for your future mother in law's HOUSE and she is miffed that you sold a stupid car?

Here's the other thing.. you say "she is not a woman you want to cross"

OK dude, you are going to have to "grow a pair!" I have singularly the most abusive MIL anyone could want to meet. She even had the audacity to tell MY Parents that MY house was not suitable for HER Daughter and they should persuade me to move... Oh and she registered her car at OUR address (didn't tell me) to avoid paying sales tax. In other words used my house to commit fraud!

There is only one response these people understand... YOU bring down the hammer!.. Its your lives, YOU live it how you want and if you get interference you don't put up with it period.

In my case I turned my own MIL into the DMV for an illegal registration!.. Of course I got the "How could a son in law of mine do such a thing?.. Blah blah blah.. boo hoo.. Cheeky bitch!

You keep living your lives, if the MIL wants to go off in a huff let her.. and if she really wants to destroy the relationship then you can always sell her condo too.

Sorry this is blunt but she is absolutely the person you want to cross.. When you are married YOU are in charge.. Not her.

Frank

[SwordGuy]

Well, first of all, a person who dies defending their country and its citizens should NEVER, EVER, EVER be called "undependable" for that.

Wash your mouth out with soap and scrub your brain clean of that rot.

Second, politely and privately mention to your mother in law that you understand her concerns about her daughter's safety and/or financial welfare.   

Regarding her daughter's financial welfare, she's paying her share of her own place to live and also for her mother to live.  Clearly, she's doing well financially if she's doing that.

Regarding her safety, her daughter has a car to use as needed, it's just not the car that was gifted to her.    That was sold because, for perfectly logical reasons, it was not as useful a car as the one the two of you kept.   Given that her daughter DID approach her about selling the car and giving her the proceeds thereof, and was turned down, there is no reason to be upset.  Notice was given and ignored.

If that doesn't work, tell her that you and her daughter run your own household the way you both DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE IT.  Neither of you need even the tiniest hint of approval to do WHATEVER THE TWO OF YOU DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE DOING.   Tell her that she needs to learn some FUCKING MANNERS and MIND HER OWN DAMN BUSINESS. 

If she doesn't want to learn some FUCKING MANNERS and chooses to go off and sulk on her own, that will be just fine by you. 

The poster above is right, don't take shit.  Bullies don't understand anything else.

[Erica/NWEdible]

I suspect there are cultural issues at work, here too. While I like the "giddy up, cowboy!" advice of other responders, keep in mind that culturally things probably are a bit different for the MIL and that has probably trickled down to your SO, too. Many cultures have a fall less independent view of family relationships than we consider normal in the US. So I guess I like, "Giddy up, cowboy! But with patience." as a suggestion.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

The advice columnist Carolyn Hax had done a lot of writing about how to set boundaries for difficult family members without cutting ties.

Keep in mind that the problem is not the MIL; it is her relationship with your SO. And half of that relationship is your SO. Does SO see the situation the way you do? Is she comfortable with the level of entanglement or does SHE want to dial it back?

[SU]

Well done for the effort you have out into understanding your MIL's perspective. It helps to remember that she is doing what makes sense to her, so for any of you to make progress on this you need to first understand why her behaviour makes sense to her and validate that. Then when she feels understood then she might be ready to hear your perspective. Or not. You can't make her understand, unfortunately, but you can keep trying to make her feel understood.

It's kinda cute that you are saying that you don't want her interfering in your decisions, but you also say that your SO put some time into persuading her to retire. I'm glad she stopped! Because if you want her to stop expressing opinions about your decisions, you also need to hold off from telling her how to live.

My guess is that she needs to hear you guys saying that you hear her disappointment and concern about selling the vehicle, and that it makes sense that she feels that way, and that for you it made sense to sell it and that you can have different opinions and still have a good relationship. Which I think is what you already said. It just takes time and patience to establish those boundaries, but the fact that you wrote a long post suggests that you already understand that situations like this are complex. It also sounds like you're doing a great job of supporting your SO; I imagine that being in conflict with her mother is hard on her, and making boundaries with parents is tough, so having you being patient and understanding is a real help.

Check out this 3 part series from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/11/booming/negotiating-conflicts-part-1-family-grudges.html

[ambimammular]

Mr.Maryland,

Be sure to follow up with us on your MIL.

I can't imagine she will hold her silence/distance for long given how opinionated she is. Best of luck on helping her see your view points. It seems you have taken the time to see it from hers.

[paddedhat]

There is quite a difference between a gift, and a gift that comes pre-loaded with strings, Implied or unspoken expectations, and the baggage of a giver who (in their own mind) maintains an ownership interest.

As for BSC MILs, you would have to work pretty hard to beat mine. She was from a long line of brutally strong, total crazy, Russian women. ( think "Red" from Orange is the New Black, if you have had the pleasure) No need to go into the suffering she caused, as it dates back to before the OP was born. Bottom line is that she was not given the opportunity to control me, or to damage our children. She spent roughly 85-90% of the last thirty years off the guest list in these parts. The SO and I reached a compromise, early on. If her mom choose to treat our family with respect, and refrain from spewing her venom, or attempting to control our lives, she was welcome to be a part, if not, she wasn't welcomed.

I never had any interest in interfering with any relationship that my SO wanted to maintain with her mom, but I was not going to allow the control and abuse to be directed at me, or more importantly, be allowed to damage our children.

You have a really rough row to hoe in this mess. There may be ways to reach a compromise, and maintain a relationship with her, or not. I would strongly suggest that you frequently step back and ask yourself a few questions.

1. Is this a healthy relationship,
2. Is the MIL a relative who is a secondary player in your relationship, or is she heavily involved, and interfering.
3. Is you SO functioning as an independent adult who makes all of her decisions without interference, and does so in a way that is clearly in the best interest of your relationship, and not compromising your happiness as a couple to please, or pacify her mom.

JMHO, but unless you have a mutually agreeable road map for how the MIL is going to be handled, going forward, I would strongly suggest that you hold off on getting married.

[mozar]

It takes awhile to be considered grown by your parents. I think I was about 27 when my parents realized I was an adult. There were a few times I stopped talking to my parents for a few months, and that helped teach them to treat me better.

 Setting boundaries now is important, going to therapy helps too. You have to say no, you will not be treating us like this.  No matter what, nobody owes anybody anything, except courteous respectful behavior.
Since her financial situation is not good, she should probably keep working.

[This_Is_My_Username]

My SO is now really worried because she and her mother usually talk at least daily, usually more and we haven't heard from her mother in about a day, despite leaving several messages.

you are correct - this is emotional blackmail.  It is a battle for control of your SO's life.  The mother is upset she is losing control. 

The only way to win this bullshit game is to care (emotionally) to a lesser degree than the other person.   

but sometimes this is not possible - some people are more emotional/passionate than others.

So, short term, I recommend coming up with a pre-agreed plan to PRETEND to care to a lesser degree.  Call only once a day.  Leave a short neutral monotone message with no emotion.   Then taper off the contact.   Once every 2-days, then twice a week, then once a week, etc.  She will cave in eventually. 

That is how you 'win' these sorts of bullshit games.  But really, everyone loses.

[Exflyboy]

My SO is now really worried because she and her mother usually talk at least daily, usually more and we haven't heard from her mother in about a day, despite leaving several messages.

you are correct - this is emotional blackmail.  It is a battle for control of your SO's life.  The mother is upset she is losing control. 

The only way to win this bullshit game is to care (emotionally) to a lesser degree than the other person.   

but sometimes this is not possible - some people are more emotional/passionate than others.

So, short term, I recommend coming up with a pre-agreed plan to PRETEND to care to a lesser degree.  Call only once a day.  Leave a short neutral monotone message with no emotion.   Then taper off the contact.   Once every 2-days, then twice a week, then once a week, etc.  She will cave in eventually. 

That is how you 'win' these sorts of bullshit games.  But really, everyone loses.

We agreed to remove the relationship between mother and her Daughter.. she eventually got the message.

We threatened also that is her behaviour did not improve (she was going to OUR wedding suppliers behind our backs making her own demands) she would not be coming to the wedding.

Just need to figure out what the abuser wants most of all.. then hold it to ransom.

Frank

[beege]

Hey everyone. Thanks for all the responses. My SO and I got a kick out of reading them all; it was quite insightful to have all the diffrerent perspectives.

As for the problem, the situation is now resolved; we let my MIL stew without further communication for a few days and today my SO called her and she picked up. They had a polite discussion where my SO did NOT apologize for selling the car, but instead simply and calmly explained our reasoning; she also focused on the fact on how committed my SO and I are to each other as she suspected that was the root cause of my MIL's worry.

It really helps that my SO and myself are getting more and more on the same page about this as earlier in my relationship I was worried since she used to say things like "I just want my mother to be happy" which seemed to imply at the cost our our own happiness. I guess, the main thing to take away from this is communication with my SO is key.

To address a few other things in particular:

Here's the other thing.. you say "she is not a woman you want to cross"

OK dude, you are going to have to "grow a pair!"

Very true. I suspect the root of that feeling was that I would also piss of my SO, but since talking with her she is really on my side.

Well, first of all, a person who dies defending their country and its citizens should NEVER, EVER, EVER be called "undependable" for that.

Wash your mouth out with soap and scrub your brain clean of that rot.

In my attempt to keep things brief I inadvertently disrespected military service. Not my intention at all. I have all the respect for my SO's dad, who died defending his country and never got to see his little girl grow up. And I wish we could do more to help veterans who are mentally or physically scarred by their service - like the man my SO's mother married after moving here to the US. Voters and politicans put troops on the ground but in the end it's just average joes who really foot the bill.

The advice columnist Carolyn Hax had done a lot of writing about how to set boundaries for difficult family members without cutting ties.

Keep in mind that the problem is not the MIL; it is her relationship with your SO. And half of that relationship is your SO. Does SO see the situation the way you do? Is she comfortable with the level of entanglement or does SHE want to dial it back?

Couldn't agree more. This was very insightful!

It takes awhile to be considered grown by your parents. I think I was about 27 when my parents realized I was an adult. There were a few times I stopped talking to my parents for a few months, and that helped teach them to treat me better.

 Setting boundaries now is important, going to therapy helps too. You have to say no, you will not be treating us like this.  No matter what, nobody owes anybody anything, except courteous respectful behavior.
Since her financial situation is not good, she should probably keep working.

These days moving farther and farther away from our family seems like a better and better idea :) Once a year visits should keep the interactions to just positive ones we think!

[dragoncar]

If the car was as a gift from your mother in law to support your SO's independence in your marriage, I somehow understand that she's cross with you. How about, if your mother in law doesn't want to take the money, you put it in a bank account in your SO's name, so that she can always use it in an emergency? This might still be somewhat in line with your MIL's original intentions, at the same time saving you both the $$$ of maintaining a second car.

Yeah I'm not sure I understand the reasoning.  If you want to sell the car, which was a gift from MIL, and give MIL the money, then why not just give MIL the car?  Especially since you knew she wasn't on board with the sale? 

[bicoastalblues]

Hi MrMarylandMustache, thanks for sharing your story, I was glad to see you guys had a positive outcome to the situation. I can empathize with your wife about dealing with parents since I feel like I'm in a similar situation with my mom. My two cents would be that since you guys aren't married, I hope you are saving up for whatever type of wedding you want because it sounds like her mom might have a lot of opinions about that as well, I know my mom sure did and every phone call with her pretty much ended with her implying I'm not spending enough on the wedding. The wedding turned out great and we stayed in the budget that we wanted but it was such a difficult road getting to that point. I think you and your SO being on the same page helps so much because I definitely had a few meltdowns throughout the whole process. Good luck!