Author Topic: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?  (Read 10484 times)

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2017, 09:30:28 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I understand I'm young and have plenty to learn, but I guess I'm being so defensive because some are taking my words to mean something completely different than what I said, and also because people are saying things like I'd make a terrible parent and I have contempt for my GF.

Obviously I won't respond nicely to comments like that. A few posters have respectfully disagreed, and I didn't respond to their posts in any confrontational manner.

I guess I'd boil down my concerns to this:

In the vast majority of fields, there are low-paying jobs that one acquires with certain majors the vast majority of the time. There are far better jobs in the same exact fields that can be had with STEM majors. As I said earlier, the roller coaster example, the animal hospital example, and my own personal example. Obviously, I want the best for my kid. It'd make their life a hell of a lot easier to not be constantly broke.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 09:34:35 PM by MrMonkeyMoustache »

Hoglet121

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2017, 09:34:21 PM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.
Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

You need to have a really hard look at your numbers, because actually, pay in many STEM areas is awful, especially at non-managerial level. The averages are swayed by some very large exec salaries. Do more homework on the actual salaries of most STEM graduates for at least the first 10-20 years of their careers - it's not pretty.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2017, 09:37:49 PM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.
Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

You need to have a really hard look at your numbers, because actually, pay in many STEM areas is awful, especially at non-managerial level. The averages are swayed by some very large exec salaries. Do more homework on the actual salaries of most STEM graduates for at least the first 10-20 years of their careers - it's not pretty.
Depends on what STEM majors your talking about. A couple of engineering disciplines? Yeah, I agree. Biology. Definitely. Computer Science? Not so much. They start pretty high. Usually around $65k or so. Electrical engineers make quite a bit as well.

And if you take out the outliers (the top 1% of the 1%) for all majors, the numbers are skewed even more in the favor of STEM degrees. Again, not saying anything is guaranteed to succeed or fail, but I'd bet my kid would have a better chance of being successful as an electrical engineering major than as a history major. I don't see what's wrong with that. I want to protect my kid from making a costly mistake that could easily affect the rest of his life.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 09:40:29 PM by MrMonkeyMoustache »

Hoglet121

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2017, 09:46:16 PM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.
Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

You need to have a really hard look at your numbers, because actually, pay in many STEM areas is awful, especially at non-managerial level. The averages are swayed by some very large exec salaries. Do more homework on the actual salaries of most STEM graduates for at least the first 10-20 years of their careers - it's not pretty.
Depends on what STEM majors your talking about. A couple of engineering disciplines? Yeah, I agree. Biology. Definitely. Computer Science? Not so much. They start pretty high. Usually around $65k or so. Electrical engineers make quite a bit as well.

And if you take out the outliers (the top 1% of the 1%) for all majors, the numbers are skewed even more in the favor of STEM degrees. Again, not saying anything is guaranteed to succeed or fail, but I'd bet my kid would have a better chance of being successful as an electrical engineering major than as a history major. I don't see what's wrong with that. I want to protect my kid from making a costly mistake that could easily affect the rest of his life.

What's wrong with it is it's your kid's life, not yours. Your reasoning is comendable, but providing a loving home in which your kid feels secure and able to grow is actually the most important thing you can do for them. You are missing the point entirely.

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2017, 10:05:35 PM »
I have parents who took your approach to parenting. Their earnestly held convictions were the bedrock of all their life and parenting choices. Likely many of us were raised like that; it's not uncommon.

Now hands up all of us who have a good relationship with those parents!

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badassprof

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2017, 10:08:31 PM »
Lots of ink spilled  on this thread, but I imagine there may be some hyperbole here on monkey's part? And of course, ideas will change--how many of us adhere to all the beliefs we had in our early 20s?  Experience, travel, diversifying one's circle--these tend to change one's perspective.

I suggest continuing to live your life in the way you see fit and try not to worry yet about what you will or won't do with imaginary children you haven't had, let alone what you might do with those children when they reach college-age.  Seems like there are bigger fish to fry? Why get in a tiff with you GF over something so theoretical?

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2017, 10:10:07 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I understand I'm young and have plenty to learn, but I guess I'm being so defensive because some are taking my words to mean something completely different than what I said, and also because people are saying things like I'd make a terrible parent and I have contempt for my GF.

Obviously I won't respond nicely to comments like that. A few posters have respectfully disagreed, and I didn't respond to their posts in any confrontational manner.
Yeah, okay, that part is rough. Some of what's happening is that there is a certain element on any internet forum that's going to judge you and be aggressively assholeish about it. It's not an admirable part of humanity. 

You don't get a total free pass, though. Some of the language you've used has obviously caused a lot of alarm bells to be rung. Every single experienced parent who's responded to this post has suggested, with varying degrees of tact, that your planned approach to child rearing needs refinement. Every single one.

Under that weight, eventually you have to consider the parable about encountering jerks all day, and you being the common denominator in each encounter. Here, your planned approach to training a child is being universally being discouraged. It's the common denominator. Consider that.

I guess I'd boil down my concerns to this:

In the vast majority of fields, there are low-paying jobs that one acquires with certain majors the vast majority of the time. There are far better jobs in the same exact fields that can be had with STEM majors. As I said earlier, the roller coaster example, the animal hospital example, and my own personal example. Obviously, I want the best for my kid. It'd make their life a hell of a lot easier to not be constantly broke.

Agreed. We all want to see our smooshie little babies grow into happy and financially stable people. I can assure you, in a deep, heartfelt, and truly sincere way that financial stability can be found outside STEM degrees. It's not difficult, or astonishing, or even unusual. Happens every day.

freshstash

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2017, 10:36:55 PM »
Your kids might be different than me, but I literally can't think of an approach that would have been more likely to turn me off of STEM than getting any of the attitude you're displaying here from my parents.

For the record, my parents majored in liberal arts and did great. I actually got a lot of "why not just get an English degree?" in college because they had themselves to use for examples, but they were proud of me for having a different vision for my life. I majored in STEM to follow my (ha!) passion. In the past five years I've had more than one occasion to think "why didn't I just get a marketing degree?" because it would've been a lot more useful as a skill in the places I've ended up. It'll probably work out in the end.

If your kid is motivated and has personal goals, they'll figure it out too. You're talking about playing the numbers, but being goal oriented and having parents who act as supports and are examples of how to make their circumstances work for their own goals is much, MUCH more strongly correlated to the outcomes you want than trying to steer a kid too hard into a certain major. Your kid feeling like they need to cut themselves off from your support, go into debt, and move across the country to figure their lives out would be pretty tough on them. Everyone who's talked about parents being there to offer perspective on how to realistically optimize your pursuit of your own goals first and foremost has the right idea. You sort of have the right idea with stuff like "encourage my kid to learn to design 3D dresses instead of just sew clothes" but I think you are letting your bad experience with exercise science (which is a STEM field, by the way...) limit your creativity. If your kid has artistic passion, talk to them about how to make that profitable. It may be that they'll realize they have to hustle harder and be more entrepreneurial to make a good living following their dreams, and come around to a more conventional career on their own... or maybe not.

Just based on your responses to commenters on this post, I'm going to guess you're stubborn as hell about the things you care about (no perjorative intended, so am I.) Now imagine a kid who takes after you with those same qualities and a different picture of their life, who's also 18 years old and probably an asshole, I sure was when I was 18. This just seriously doesn't all add up the way you want it to. Either you're going to alienate your kid or (if they're not as stubborn as you) crush them. Either way it's not going to lead to a great long term relationship.

You've said your future wife completes you with her differences from your outlook. My dad told me once, your wife completes you, and your kids will teach you something. Think about that.

stashja

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2017, 11:44:08 PM »
Having worked In humanities research in various top universities, including Oxford, for almost 20 years, I am aware of many, many dropouts from STeM majors whose academic disasters resulted from studying something their parents mandated, for which they therefore had no independent desire. Free will is a very strong temptation, especially for kids who have always been controlled. I am also aware of several such students who, having failed some milestone of stem education, fearing parental (well, paternal) disappointment, committed suicide. Would you rather have a rich kid or one who outlives you?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 11:46:31 PM by stashja »

Khaetra

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2017, 04:34:37 AM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.
Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

But you're playing the numbers for TODAY.  You do not have a kid TODAY.  There is no guarantee that in the future STEM will be where the money is.  None.  The market could be oversaturated to the point that there are no jobs available, or if there are they pay McDonalds wages.  Maybe we finally decide that good quality teachers need to be paid really well.  Maybe your kid might want to be an EMT and that's where the money's at.  We don't know what's going to happen 20+ years from now and that's something you need to consider.

marty998

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2017, 04:55:38 AM »
Hmmm... in 20 years time when all the STEM fields have been automated and robotised...

I wonder if the only fields left with any earning capacity will be the arts and social sciences. I'm certainly betting it to happen - I don't expect there to be as many accountants around in 20 years time, which is another good reason for me to FIRE.

Oh... politicians. There'll always be politicians.

rockeTree

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2017, 05:12:44 AM »
Seriously had no idea that there was so much demand for the tiny fraction of humanity interested in designing roller coasters!

I teach in an engineering school and kids who are there because daddy won't pay otherwise are a) unhappy and b) not very successful. Your a+ sociology student may have better prospects than a c student chemical engineering grad who can't tell the interviewer why they're excited about the gig.

(I have a hard sci phd and my college dropout partner makes more than I do).


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Cranky

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2017, 05:20:04 AM »
You influence your kids by living a good life with the values you truly believe in.

If you are happy and frugal and interested in things in life, both as work and outside of work - your kids will want those things, too! Kids rarely learn from what you tell them they should do, but they are watching you, all the time. So, live your life, and your kids can figure out if that is working for you.

If your kid wants to be a poet, help him/her figure out how to make that happen. College educations come with all sorts of price tags. My poet child went to a really, really good college for less than it would have cost to send her to our state university, and she is gainfully and happily employed with that English degree. She's very sensible with her money, too.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2017, 06:20:33 AM »
Seriously had no idea that there was so much demand for the tiny fraction of humanity interested in designing roller coasters!

I teach in an engineering school and kids who are there because daddy won't pay otherwise are a) unhappy and b) not very successful. Your a+ sociology student may have better prospects than a c student chemical engineering grad who can't tell the interviewer why they're excited about the gig.

(I have a hard sci phd and my college dropout partner makes more than I do).


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The demand for the designing of roller coasters was not really my point. My point was that, for the vast majority of hobbies and interests, there are usually rather low-paying jobs, and then much higher paying jobs. The latter are usually STEM jobs. For example, someone designing dresses with a computer will probably make much more than someone that does it by hand, ON AVERAGE. Someone who, for example, designs the acoustic environments for theaters probably will make much more than the actors/singers, ON AVERAGE.

desk_jockey

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2017, 07:26:39 AM »
[Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

Not that I completely disagree with you on STEM, but this and your early comment with an example of a CIS degree made me want to point out one thing:  you're making a decision based on what you observe today.   If you were talking about your 17 year old children who are preparing for college, then I think it would be pretty reasonable advice.   But your talking about your theoretical children that are 25+ years away from beginning their careers. 

Who knows if programmer job is a path to success in 30 years.  I would guess they would do very well if they are in the top 3% of their profession but if they are average they may find themselves bidding for contract jobs against bots and everyone else in the world to scrape out a below average living.   If you're planning their future 25 years out, maybe you should steer them towards something less easily outsourced to another part of the globe.   How about plumbing?   

john6221

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2017, 07:32:14 AM »
Talk about a way to raise a messed-up kid with Dad issues.

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2017, 07:41:49 AM »
Other people are brushing over this with wonderful prose, but I'll just come out and say it: I would fucking hate you if you were my dad.
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rubybeth

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2017, 07:44:34 AM »
OK, so, my first advice is to chill.  Your kids will learn more from what they see you do, day in and day out, than from anything you tell them.

Second, believe me when I say you have absolutely *no* idea what kind of kid you will get.  When I think back to what I assumed my kids would be like, and how I would raise them and train them and this and that, well, I can only laugh at my own hubris.  My kids came out of the womb who they are; there is no power on this earth that was going to change that.

You sound like such an awesome mom, Laura33! I'm not a mom but I strongly agree with you on all of your posts. You have a lot of wisdom. I'm sure my mom would agree with you, too--she was the primary parent for me and my sister, and we couldn't be more different. I majored in English and at 28 completed my graduate degree in library science, and my sister knew what she wanted to be at age 15 and majored in communication disorders and immediately got her graduate degree to be a speech language pathologist. Plot twist: guess who makes more money? :)

What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?

Thanks for this excellent post, scantee!  I was telling my husband (a marriage and family therapist in training) about this thread and my advice to the OP in it, and he agreed with me and brought up what you said, too. You wrote it much better than I could have, though.
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2017, 07:45:23 AM »
[Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

Not that I completely disagree with you on STEM, but this and your early comment with an example of a CIS degree made me want to point out one thing:  you're making a decision based on what you observe today.   If you were talking about your 17 year old children who are preparing for college, then I think it would be pretty reasonable advice.   But your talking about your theoretical children that are 25+ years away from beginning their careers. 

Who knows if programmer job is a path to success in 30 years.  I would guess they would do very well if they are in the top 3% of their profession but if they are average they may find themselves bidding for contract jobs against bots and everyone else in the world to scrape out a below average living.   If you're planning their future 25 years out, maybe you should steer them towards something less easily outsourced to another part of the globe.   How about plumbing?
Plumbing is fantastic. I truly wish more people would give the trades a fair shot. Plenty of opportunity there. In fact, for many people, I think the trades are a better option than college. Namely, people who won't really succeed in a STEM major.

The numbers definitely add up for those looking to be FIRE. Instead of getting into a bunch of debt and having no work experience for 4 years, you'll have 4 years of work experience, zero debt, skills that you can use outside of your career and will save you money, and 4 years of pretty decent pay.

If I could do it all over again, I would have taught myself to program, and foregone college in pursuit of either being a plumber, an electrician, or a pipe welder (probably welder if I was single, plumber if in serious relationship).

historienne

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2017, 07:55:02 AM »
I got hit with a ruler hard as hell when I did something wrong. It didn't emotionally scar me, or whatever other crap people will try to convince you of.

This claim is...not convincing, given the level of emotional acuity that you are currently displaying.


More on topic, I have three degrees (BA, MA, PhD) in the humanities.  I teach history at a private university.  Obviously I don't buy into the idea that STEM degrees are the golden road.  But really - I make 80k/year in a MCOL city to do work that I love and am passionate about.  My life is pretty great.  Yeah, I probably won't retire early, and I'm smart enough that I could have chosen a different career path that would have let me do so.  But that's a tradeoff that I've been happy to make.  And it might be one that your kids would make as well, if only they weren't crippled by anxiety about disappointing their father's arbitrary career demands.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 08:02:05 AM by historienne »

Villanelle

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2017, 08:10:17 AM »
And how does your future wife feel about spanking?  About being "less soft"?  It seems like you guys are miles apart on a lot of pretty basic life philosophy and it's best to hash this stuff out before you are married and before you have kids, because the fundamental incompatibilities get worse, not better, as life progresses.   I'm not going to judge the content of your philosophy, but it seems like you guys are miles apart, and it doesn't seem like you are willing to compromise very much.  Unless your girlfriend is willing to basically abandon her approach, how does this work?  How do you truly envision your daily lives?  Junior hits his brother, after having repeatedly been instructed to leave him alone.  Your then-wife wants to sit him down and talk it out, and make the boys hug.  You want to put junior over your knee.  Who gives up?  How do you feel if it's you?  How do you feel the day your daughter says she wants to be just like her mom, and has decided to skip college to try to make a go at being a painter?  Your wife is delighted and supportive.  How does that conversation go?

Please truly think about these things.  You can steer your kids somewhat, but outside influences and nature play a huge role, and so will your wife.  So picture specific issues, and see if there are ways for it to actually work between you and your girlfriend, and please be realistic and don't just assume it will all sort of work out, especially if what that means to you is your girlfriend will do 80% of the changing and compromising.  Is she going to be out posting on an artist's message board almost the same thing, asking how to make her boyfriend more artistic?   

MrsWhipple

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2017, 08:24:36 AM »
As someone with a STEM degree, I've actually read through the studies on spanking because, you know, evidence based parenting is important to me. Guess what the evidence shows?

Or, you know, you could go ahead and blindly follow your intuition that hitting your kids is a great idea. But as a STEM-minded person, of course you want to make the right, scientific decision for your kids, right? Please read some research on this shit before having a baby.

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2017, 08:38:38 AM »
I thought I'd reply to your original post, keeping in mind what I've read in your follow-up comments, Mr Monkey Moustache.

For starters: I think you've confused averages and generalisations with specific circumstances. It's a common mistake. In this case, you've confused "average earnings from a STEM degree" with "what a specific unconceived human will be able to earn with a STEM degree in 25 years time given their unique personality and skill set".

Being moustachIan means, as I generally see it defined, using as few resources as possible, while having the most fun. For some this is working their butts off and then living off the proceeds; for others, working part-time to cover their costs and a bit for saving, then spending the rest of their week or year gloriously free; for yet others, knowing they can follow their passion even though paying careers in their field generally max out at $30k/y because they adore their work, and are frugal enough to also bring up the 7 kids they always wanted at that level of income :)

Basically, me and my GF have already decided we want to get married and have kids someday. I'm pretty Mustachian, and she's starting to try to be, but I REALLY want my kids to be. I understand that a big part of that is career choice. Sure, you CAN retire early by working at a $30k job. But you can retire much quicker working at a $130k job.
Here you've taken a narrow definition of potential options as the One Way. It's awesome that you want to retire ASAP! To help your kids do it, I totally agree that helping them work out their unique skills and how to wrangle a pile of cash from it is a great idea! But as others have said, you'll need to really help them think outside the box and delve into every possible option. Business degrees are not STEM, but you can make a bunch more money with them! And if they choose that, awesome. If not, that's OK too. They might be thrilled flipping burgers and volunteering at a zoo during the week!

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Here's where our differences kick in.

She's a very liberal, artsy person that believes you should follow your passion, and you can be anything you want to be. I'm more of the Mike Rowe/Red Foreman/Bernie Mac conservative. I believe that you should bring your passion with you, not follow it, and you'd be stupid not to bring it to a STEM field.

I want my kids to be successful. The thing I fear more than anything is my GF influencing our kid to get like an art degree or something, and the kid never being anything more than a Starbucks manager.
Art degree =/= Starbucks manager. In fact, if a kid of mine wants to do STEM, I'll be strongly encouraging the addition of Arts to their curriculum because the most successful ones I've seen in engineering and science have double majors. I wish I'd added some to my degree, but I followed my passion straight to engineering with no deviations...
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I'm not saying I'll force my kid to go into any particular field, because you can combine just about ANY interest/hobbies with STEM fields, but I absolutely refuse to pay for, or support, a useless degree (I have a whole list).

Hell, I'd even be proud if my kid decided to forego college, and use those 4 years to make a bunch of money, get 4 years extra of experience, and not waste money on tuition by learning a trade.

Basically, my GF thinks an 18-year-old KID (let's be honest, 18-year-olds are NOT adults) should be given free reign to ruin their life by getting a $60k art/history/etc. degree. I think that I'll need to knock some sense into that little shithead, because making $30k/year is not enough.

How do you traverse such a polarizing situation? My GF and I will probably never agree on this, but I absolutely want to do everything in my power to ensure my child either learns a trade, or gets a STEM degree (that's not biology).

What are some things I can do to instill in my child the importance of finance, and making a good decision with career choice? How can I start to convince my wife that a little authoritarian parenting ("tough love") may be what's needed after high school?
To traverse such a polarising situation, take a deep breath and think of how much you love her and yourself. Recognise there's nothing wrong with any path, though they may be hard. Consider agreeing not to pay for college at all, instead of only paying for what you think would be worthwhile. After all, if it's lucrative they'll be fine, and if it's not they will get to make their own mistakes and learn and grow for them.

My parents encouraged us to look at our skillset and passions, and work out if we wanted to try for a job that would support a passion, or a job that used things that were our passion - but they never suggested we try for something that was not our skillset or passion. You can't guess what your kids natural mix will be :)

You might be projecting your own difficult learning opportunity onto a theoretical person.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2017, 08:41:24 AM »
As someone with a STEM degree, I've actually read through the studies on spanking because, you know, evidence based parenting is important to me. Guess what the evidence shows?

Or, you know, you could go ahead and blindly follow your intuition that hitting your kids is a great idea. But as a STEM-minded person, of course you want to make the right, scientific decision for your kids, right? Please read some research on this shit before having a baby.
And please read the thread before replying. I said in this very thread that I probably would not spank.

Mezzie

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2017, 08:45:17 AM »
Your original post reminds me of exactly why I didn't marry my ex oh-so-many years ago.

Wanting your kids to be financially secure is one thing: you can teach them how to manage money, how to avoid frivolous purchases, how to buy quality products that last, how to pay bills on time, how to avoid consumer debt, etc. Most of that will not even have to be directly taught; if you're open about your finances and provide a good example, the message will get across.

Being open about money will also give them a good idea about what certain lifestyles cost. I am very grateful that my parents valued being happy over anything else and that I learned from them how to live on little. That gave me the confidence to follow my passion (heaven forfend!) despite the risk because I knew I was smart enough to get by and I'd work hard no matter what if my plan A didn't work out.

Plan A DID work out, with a humanities degree no less. I make more money than I ever imagined (and more than many in the STEM fields, I might add), but what really makes me happy is what I DO.

Think about accepting the fact that what makes you happy (FI, early retirement, high income...) may not be what makes your children happy. Successful and happy need not be mutually exclusive, it's true, but it is possible for your hypothetical children to be successful by your terms yet very, very unhappy and unsatisfied.
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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2017, 08:52:25 AM »
Recognise there's nothing wrong with any path, though they may be hard.
I agree with the rest of what you said, but I cannot agree with this. People can call me closed-minded or an asshole, or a terrible parent, but if all someone aspires to be is a burger flipper in their life, I have absolutely zero respect for them, and I 100% believe that it is the wrong path.

I certainly will not teach my kid(s) that burger flipping is enough. No, I won't tell them that their art career or history major will never be good enough, but I will definitely tell them that they shouldn't be flipping burgers their whole lives. People were meant for far more.

@Mezzie I would not force them into any field and make them unhappy. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just a staunch believer that you work for money, and you do activities for happiness. Now, if both happen to line up, great! But if your only passion is basket-weaving, you're much better off being an electrician, and doing basket-weaving as a hobby.

I think people are thinking the absolute worst, like I'll degrade them and scream at them until I get my way. Not at all. But I certainly want to teach them that just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Chase opportunity, and bring your passion with you. Passion for a specific thing isn't just something you're born with, it's cultivated. I believe that you can become passionate about anything you work hard and get good at.

Laura33

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2017, 09:03:28 AM »
And how does your future wife feel about spanking?  About being "less soft"?  It seems like you guys are miles apart on a lot of pretty basic life philosophy and it's best to hash this stuff out before you are married and before you have kids, because the fundamental incompatibilities get worse, not better, as life progresses.   I'm not going to judge the content of your philosophy, but it seems like you guys are miles apart, and it doesn't seem like you are willing to compromise very much.  Unless your girlfriend is willing to basically abandon her approach, how does this work? 

This x 1000.

My DH has about 10% of your attitude, and I am middle-of-the-road as a parent (i.e., I am not a lax mom who thinks her precious snowflakes can do no wrong; in parenting-speak, he tends toward "authoritarian," and I test out as "authoritative").  I'd say we are about 90% aligned in how we manage our kids.  And yet we have come closer to divorce over the remaining 10% than over anything else.  Seriously.  We have been through job losses, moves, depression, infertility, family deaths, and just about every possible stressful situation, and we have gotten through them all as a team.  But when 3-yr-old DS lost his shit and refused to put on his coat, and DH yanked his arm to force it on him, I grabbed DS and told DH to back the fuck off, that we were going to counseling, and he was learning some parenting skills, or I was out of there.

My one and only ultimatum in 20+ years of marriage.  No one fucks with my kids.  Ever.
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badassprof

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2017, 09:08:11 AM »
Just have to say it again (and to myself  too since I'm posting for the third time and, even though I've been on this forum since 2012, I'm a mini mustache, that is how often I post)  but why don't we just let this thread go? It is clearly hyperbolic. MM doesn't have kids, let along college-aged kids. He is in his early 20s declaring loudly what he will do with said kids with a GF who may or may not be the mother of these imaginary children. I understand this hits a nerve for folks: as a professor at a liberal arts college, I see these parents all the time, and imagine some folks are responding in the ways they are because it hits a similar nerve. But this whole thing strikes me as troll territory.  Okay, off to teach Shakespeare!

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2017, 09:09:18 AM »
And how does your future wife feel about spanking?  About being "less soft"?  It seems like you guys are miles apart on a lot of pretty basic life philosophy and it's best to hash this stuff out before you are married and before you have kids, because the fundamental incompatibilities get worse, not better, as life progresses.   I'm not going to judge the content of your philosophy, but it seems like you guys are miles apart, and it doesn't seem like you are willing to compromise very much.  Unless your girlfriend is willing to basically abandon her approach, how does this work? 

This x 1000.

My DH has about 10% of your attitude, and I am middle-of-the-road as a parent (i.e., I am not a lax mom who thinks her precious snowflakes can do no wrong; in parenting-speak, he tends toward "authoritarian," and I test out as "authoritative").  I'd say we are about 90% aligned in how we manage our kids.  And yet we have come closer to divorce over the remaining 10% than over anything else.  Seriously.  We have been through job losses, moves, depression, infertility, family deaths, and just about every possible stressful situation, and we have gotten through them all as a team.  But when 3-yr-old DS lost his shit and refused to put on his coat, and DH yanked his arm to force it on him, I grabbed DS and told DH to back the fuck off, that we were going to counseling, and he was learning some parenting skills, or I was out of there.

My one and only ultimatum in 20+ years of marriage.  No one fucks with my kids.  Ever.

I think a lot of people are taking their bad experiences and projecting them on to me, like others are accusing me of doing. I never said anything about physically harming my kids, or just being a downright jerk. Just a disciplinarian.

Laura33

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
I never said anything about physically harming my kids, or just being a downright jerk. Just a disciplinarian.

My husband never intended to physically harm his kids or be a jerk, either, and was embarrassed at himself once he calmed down.  But because he thought of himself as disciplinarian, kids who refused to respect his authori-tay pushed his buttons like nothing else.

But you missed the larger point.  It's not about who's right or wrong, or whether he is too firm or I am too soft.  It is about how even minor differences in parenting philosophies can come close to breaking a marriage.  Please have these conversations with your GF before you get married, and certainly before you procreate. 
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2017, 09:25:56 AM »
I never said anything about physically harming my kids, or just being a downright jerk. Just a disciplinarian.

My husband never intended to physically harm his kids or be a jerk, either, and was embarrassed at himself once he calmed down.  But because he thought of himself as disciplinarian, kids who refused to respect his authori-tay pushed his buttons like nothing else.

But you missed the larger point.  It's not about who's right or wrong, or whether he is too firm or I am too soft.  It is about how even minor differences in parenting philosophies can come close to breaking a marriage.  Please have these conversations with your GF before you get married, and certainly before you procreate.
We do have these conversations. I'd never go into parenting without us at least coming to some kind of consensus. People think that it's my way or the highway. I never said, nor implied that. I'm willing to compromise, but not all the way. I still do believe that the disciplinarian style is the best parenting style for raising well-adjusted children. I'm willing to be a bit more lax, but I'm not going to start reading HuffPo Parenting Tips 101, and start telling my kid(s) that it's okay they broke the vase.

Of course, as people have mentioned, I'm thinking far into the future, but I like to plan for it. Anticipate the shortcomings of the plan before it happens, so I can refine it, and not learn by making costly mistakes that effect my kids' futures.


snacky

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2017, 09:30:34 AM »
What irks me is that it sounds like the OP is asking how to be his future kids' sole influence. He doesn't want their mother to have any sway in the areas of education and career, or possibly even general life philosophy. If her liberal, artsy ways are so terrible, why have kids with her? Would having kids that take after their mother be so tragic? This seems fucked up to me. Fundamentally disrespectful of who she is and unloving.

Buddy, that's not how this works. Assuming you do half the parenting, you will get to have maybe 15% influence over your kids' opinions and tendencies. That leaves 15% for your entirely equal coparent and the rest is society and the personality your kid will be born with. Fellow parents will probably agree that the 15% estimate is generous. Many men do less than 50% of the daily work of parenting, and so that influence is diminished.
I'm the sole caregiver to my kids, and at most I have 20% influence over them in these big picture ways. If I want someone to boss around and train I get a dog. Fellow humans don't exist for me to use for a re-do of my own youth, correcting my perceived mistakes.
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frugaliknowit

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2017, 09:35:22 AM »
You are "putting the cart before the horse".

I would suggest you focus on your relationship with your potential wife.  If and when you have children, discuss the particulars then.  I don't think you need to discuss every last detail about how you want your kids educated NOW...

nessness

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2017, 09:36:54 AM »
You do realize that being an acoustic engineer is absolutely nothing like acting in the theater, right? Or that designing GUIs is nothing like being an artist?

I work in STEM, but I know a lot of people in artistic fields - photography, clothing design, opera, etc. Some are making a decent living, others are scraping by, but I don't think any of them would be happier working in STEM.

Please wait a few years before having kids. Actually, please take a long hard look at whether you even want kids, since what you seem to want is little carbon copies of yourself, rather than living, breathing human beings with their own passions, talents, and personalities which may or may not have anything in common with yours.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2017, 09:40:45 AM »
You are "putting the cart before the horse".

I would suggest you focus on your relationship with your potential wife.  If and when you have children, discuss the particulars then.  I don't think you need to discuss every last detail about how you want your kids educated NOW...
I mean, I don't HAVE to, but I want to have some general guidelines I can follow. I don't think planning ahead would be a bad idea. I want to have a good idea about how I'll teach, how I'll discipline, how much flexibility I'll give the children, etc.

@nessness Well, I've already said that I was raised to believe that work is for money, hobbies are for fun. Hopefully both line up, but don't be a dumbass and throw away opportunity because something else might be more fun.

Sure, I'd love NOTHING more than to be the greatest running back to ever play in the NFL. But this is real life. Passion =/= talent. Find a field that you're passionate about AND it pays well. Passion means nothing if you're barely scraping by.

humbleMouse

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2017, 09:52:16 AM »
Wow, you sound like a shitty person.

Lots of your responses are filled with things like, "Not many people are really good at art stuff, and it's foolish to pursue being on broadway."

You obviously have not spent much time with artist people or just highly motivated people in general.  You sound like you are projecting your own insecurities about not being really good at something. 

Have some hope and dreams for fucks sake.  Human beings are incredible and can achieve great things with perseverance and hard work.  You sound like you are too afraid to even try to do great things, and you are projecting this fear upon this forum and your future children.

Also, if your girlfriend is actually an artsy open minded person who disagrees with your likely dumb political view, she is going to dump you well before you can have any kids. 
"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform - don't kid yourself." - Frank Zappa.

lhamo

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2017, 10:01:29 AM »
Time to move along, folks.

The OP started this thread thinking that the MMM forums would be a GREAT place to get feedback from narrow-minded mustachians that share his worldview that 1)  the arts/humanities suck and cannot possibly provide a living wage, much less a viable path to FIRE and 2) due to the assumed truth of point #1, a STEM or trades career is the only way to go and 3) due to the assumed truth of points #1 and 2, all he needs to do is figure out which magic pill to make his artsy girlfriend take, and they will be on their way to marital/family bliss and world domination through calculated moneymaking, with a little room for passion on the side, maybe.

He's not interested in alternative viewpoints, or a debate.  Even (or especially) from people who have FIREd at an early age on a non-tech or trades path.

Nothing those of us with an alternative view can offer him here, except our hope that he is willing to open his mind and accept the possibility that there might be other ways to approach this as he digs into the reality of marriage/parenting.

Best of luck to you, OP.
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2Birds1Stone

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2017, 10:02:33 AM »
Other people are brushing over this with wonderful prose, but I'll just come out and say it: I would fucking hate you if you were my dad.

+1
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2017, 10:08:43 AM »
Wow, you sound like a shitty person.

Lots of your responses are filled with things like, "Not many people are really good at art stuff, and it's foolish to pursue being on broadway."

You obviously have not spent much time with artist people or just highly motivated people in general.  You sound like you are projecting your own insecurities about not being really good at something. 

Have some hope and dreams for fucks sake.  Human beings are incredible and can achieve great things with perseverance and hard work.  You sound like you are too afraid to even try to do great things, and you are projecting this fear upon this forum and your future children.

Also, if your girlfriend is actually an artsy open minded person who disagrees with your likely dumb political view, she is going to dump you well before you can have any kids.
I never said it's foolish to chase Broadway. But, if you're a terrible actor it is.

If I'm Michael Jordan, I'll pursue basketball. If I barely made the JV team, I'd be stupid to pass up viable opportunities to try to play basketball.

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2017, 10:21:57 AM »
So. Dudebro. All I want to say to is, oh. Oh sweetie. No. That's not how parenting works. At all. This is not even how marriage works.

I want to say this in the most compassionate tone possible, because I find your lack of understanding just sad. At this point I'm rooting for your girlfriend to break up with you. You claims to love and respect her but, honestly, I'm not certain you quite understand the meaning of those words. You respect her but you're going to do everything you can to undermine her as a parent? You're going to denigrate not just what she does but part of who she is? You're going to try to force onto hypothetical future children the idea that their mother is lesser because she's artsy, and they're not allowed to be like her? Oh, I know you're going to argue and claim that's not what they're doing, but it is. That is exactly what you're doing, by prioritizing one narrow set of fields above all others. You're ignoring all of the advice in this thread, and indeed even all of the research that says it's not what degree you get it's who you are that counts. Who you are as a parent matters. Who your kids are, and who they want to be, matters even more than that.

Until you are willing to put the happiness of kids above yours, no matter what you think, please do not have any children. You will be doing them a disservice and, frankly, it won't be the path to your own happiness. You will be an unhappy parent, and unhappy person in general, if you do not let go of some of your rigidity of thinking. Of all the things I've done in my life, parenting has required the most creativity and flexibility. It is hard even when you love your kids and accept them for who they are. It is hard even when you're, as Laura33 said, on the same page as your partner at least 90% of the time. Nothing in your life will (or maybe even should) challenge you as much as being a parent. Are you ready for that? No? Then take time--a lot more time--to let your thinking evolve. Read a lot. Parenting books, even ones you disagree with, can be very illuminating. But don't just read them, read novels too. Barbara Kingsolver's "The Poisonwood Bible" might be a good place to start. The dad in that sounds very much like the kind of parent you want to be.

At the very least, reading more might give you slightly more appreciation for the arts. These people had something to say. Did it make them gobs of money? Maybe not. Did it make them happy, or bring them contentment? Almost certainly. Did it add something to all of humanity? Certainly. Are those things worth doing for their own sake? You might not think so, but your kids might. And that is something you'll have to learn to deal with.

As it stands, I would recommend that you not have kids, don't even get married. Maybe see a counselor or therapist and learn about yourself. You have quite a lot of growing up to do, and plenty of emotional intelligence to learn, before you even think about bringing another life into the world.

If I want someone to boss around and train I get a dog. Fellow humans don't exist for me to use for a re-do of my own youth, correcting my perceived mistakes.

+1 Your kids are not a template for you to impose your will on.

I'm done. Good luck with life, OP. You sound like you're going to need it.

humbleMouse

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2017, 10:24:53 AM »
What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?
I never said I couldn't love those qualities. Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't be with my GF, as you said. But, as my previous post suggested, I think that they could find much better STEM-related careers to go along with their passions.

Again, using the theme parks example. Sure, you could make next to nothing running some rides at a theme park. Or, you can design the rollercoasters and make quite a bit.

If you love theater, for example, rather than waste your time and money trying to make it on Broadway (a foolish pursuit), you could become an acoustical engineer.

Just saying that STEM-related paths offer FAR more lucrative careers, while still not straying from really any of your passions.

I mean, I'm VERY passionate about all things powerlifting. I love everything about it. But, as I learned the hard way, an exercise science degree is absolutely useless, and would lead me nowhere other than perpetual debt and struggle. However, since learning to program fairly well already, I've started on a path to creating a very unique and sought-after fitness app that I believe will change the online fitness game. I'm finding a way to combine my pragmatic major with my biggest passion.


> I never said it's foolish to chase Broadway. But, if you're a terrible actor it is.
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Laura33

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2017, 10:25:45 AM »
I mean, I don't HAVE to, but I want to have some general guidelines I can follow. I don't think planning ahead would be a bad idea. I want to have a good idea about how I'll teach, how I'll discipline, how much flexibility I'll give the children, etc.

Well, you've gotten a lot of feedback here, from people with kids, recommending less focus on the "discipline" part and more focus on the "flexibility" part.  You've just chosen to disregard it in favor of defending your preferred approach.  Which puts me basically in accord with lhamo:  I'm not sure you actually wanted advice on how to do those things; you wanted people to confirm that your approach is correct. 

So, good luck to you.  And I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky way.   
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zarfus

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2017, 10:26:40 AM »


Well in a recent post a few weeks ago you mention that you were early 20s, 22? 24?  If you are going to vehemently state that 18 year olds are not adults and even when raised to be responsible and with financial literacy, then maybe you should think back that 18 was not that long ago for you. 
24. And yes, I know it wasn't too long ago, which is why it's hits so close to home for me. I made the same mistakes I'm talking about in this thread, and I don't want my child to do the same. I followed my passion, but it led nowhere. It was a waste of money, and put me in a huge financial hole.

Quote
I would recommend reading the book Rich Dad Poor Dad.  Also check out MMM's post covering jobs that make over $50,000 a year.  Hell read the most recent post about MMM's wife's Etsy shop.

While I agree that going for a BA in liberal Arts is probably not the Fastest route to FIRE or just FI. MMM's wife through self taught soap and jewelry making made $100,000+ in a year.
I've read both. And I understand it's not IMPOSSIBLE to be success doing careers like that, but those are the fringe exceptions. The vast majority of people that pursue those passions as careers end up broke and in debt. I just want my kid(s) to be successful.

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Rather than saying "Dearest Daughter if you want to live a happy fulfilled life, pick a job your not interested in so you can be FI ASAP and then do things you enjoy after a decade of being miserable"
I definitely do NOT want that. I just understand that, for every passion that leads nowhere, there's probably a satisfying STEM job in that field that leads to greater things.

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lets think along the lines of "If you want to design dresses by hand, lets me explain to you how manufacturing and raw material cost affects the prices of what you design and how starting your own business allows you to put more money away before taxes than if you work for someone else!"
And I will certainly try to teach them that stuff. Being your own boss is extremely liberating. I hope to one day achieve that goal. But even then, the vast majority of businesses will not succeed. It's just life. I want to improve the odds of my child's success as much as possible.
Would you go so far and say you... Learned from your mistakes?

I hope some day you are blessed with children if you want them, and that you may learn what a joy it is to watch them succeed and fail and get up again all on their own.

Isn't the whole point of FIRE to be able to live your life with the luxury of not having to worry about money? Who gives a shit if that's when you're 28 from a STEM degree or 54 from an art history degree of they both brought a lifetime of joy? Keep your mind and heart open my friend.

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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2017, 10:31:27 AM »
I mean, I don't HAVE to, but I want to have some general guidelines I can follow. I don't think planning ahead would be a bad idea. I want to have a good idea about how I'll teach, how I'll discipline, how much flexibility I'll give the children, etc.

Well, you've gotten a lot of feedback here, from people with kids, recommending less focus on the "discipline" part and more focus on the "flexibility" part.  You've just chosen to disregard it in favor of defending your preferred approach.  Which puts me basically in accord with lhamo:  I'm not sure you actually wanted advice on how to do those things; you wanted people to confirm that your approach is correct. 

So, good luck to you.  And I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky way.   
I'm not trying to disregard anything. I've said in this thread that I know I'm young and have a lot to learn, and I know I'll have to compromise a bit. All I've said is that I'm not willing to compromise ALL of my beliefs. I don't want to give them TOO MUCH flexibility, for example. The only people I feel like I've disregarded are those who either misrepresent
what I'm saying, or personally attack me.

Those who didn't all received non-snarky replies from my end.

I'm just trying to let you guys know that I am, in no way, suggesting I'll be an absolute dictator and emotionally abuse my kids. Not at all. I won't force them to go into anything, or talk down about them or their mother. I'd never do that. But that's what people are thinking.

Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2017, 10:34:37 AM »

I'm glad to hear you'd support them having hobbies that aren't monetarily productive. Would you pay for lessons for those hobbies? Supplies? i.e. violin lessons for a kiddo, or voice lessons? Paint easels? Or would that be 'not a good return on dollar investment' because they would be 'hobbies?'
That's something you and your GF should probably discuss, too.
100%. I'd highly encourage it, and go to every practice/game/concert/etc. My GF agrees. We both think that children should always have hobbies they're passionate about that we both support to the fullest extent.

But, where me and my GF differ is thinking that your career choice should be based on those passions. I simply believe that you can learn to love a career you're good at. I was never passionate about programming until I got good at it, for example. Now, that doesn't mean my kid HAS to go into programming. Not at all. I just think that, for most every hobby a kid has, there's usually a bunch of low-paying careers attached to it, and some much better STEM careers.

For example, if I have a kid who is SO passionate about theme parks and recreation, sure, they could study tourism. But they'd be better off, for example, designing the rollercoasters at those parks. If you're passionate about art, sure, you can major in it. But you could also becoming a graphical user interface designer, and be much better off.

Love animals? Sure, you could be a desk assistant at an animal hospital. But, you'd be much better off being an animal surgeon.
Lol, I don't think you know the cost of becoming a vet.  It is rewarding but not that profitable.  My aunt is a vet tech and often was doing better than the vets that hired her because of lack of student loans.

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« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 01:06:02 PM by Gin1984 »

john6221

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2017, 10:36:59 AM »
This thread should be renamed "How to manipulate my GF because I'm a narcissist who thinks he knows the only path to success."

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Sailor Sam

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2017, 10:44:49 AM »
^ That's not necessary. The kid is being dogmatic and inflexible, but he IS here and he's taking the criticism fairly politely. The lessons being offered might sink in eventually, but not if we act like assholes back. Be the bigger man.

rubybeth

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2017, 11:08:36 AM »
I never said anything about physically harming my kids, or just being a downright jerk. Just a disciplinarian.

My husband never intended to physically harm his kids or be a jerk, either, and was embarrassed at himself once he calmed down.  But because he thought of himself as disciplinarian, kids who refused to respect his authori-tay pushed his buttons like nothing else.

But you missed the larger point.  It's not about who's right or wrong, or whether he is too firm or I am too soft.  It is about how even minor differences in parenting philosophies can come close to breaking a marriage.  Please have these conversations with your GF before you get married, and certainly before you procreate.
We do have these conversations. I'd never go into parenting without us at least coming to some kind of consensus. People think that it's my way or the highway. I never said, nor implied that. I'm willing to compromise, but not all the way. I still do believe that the disciplinarian style is the best parenting style for raising well-adjusted children. I'm willing to be a bit more lax, but I'm not going to start reading HuffPo Parenting Tips 101, and start telling my kid(s) that it's okay they broke the vase.

Of course, as people have mentioned, I'm thinking far into the future, but I like to plan for it. Anticipate the shortcomings of the plan before it happens, so I can refine it, and not learn by making costly mistakes that effect my kids' futures.

I don't believe you're really looking for advice. If you were, you would be internalizing what all of the experienced parents in the thread are saying and thanking them for their wisdom. But you're not. You're arguing with them and saying why you think they are wrong, and getting into nitpicky side comments.

I'm officially done with this thread.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 11:11:01 AM by rubybeth »
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golden1

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2017, 11:17:49 AM »
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I want my kids to be successful. The thing I fear more than anything is my GF influencing our kid to get like an art degree or something, and the kid never being anything more than a Starbucks manager.

My first gut instinct is to say something pretty harsh, but I will dial it back for the sake of civility.

Really?  This is what you "fear more than anything"? That actually has me a bit speechless. What if your child is sick, or has a disability?  No one thinks it can happen to them but this board is full of people who have these children, who they would not trade for anything. 

I would recommend you think long and hard about WHY you want to have children.  You are bringing human beings into the world, not robots or automatons who exist to fulfill your dreams or what it means to be a success.  I guarantee if you go down this road with the attitude you seem to have, you will end up a) miserable yourself or b) making your child miserable or c) both. 

And next time you go to Starbucks, remember that a) someone has to do this job (Mike Rowe would absolutely REAM you for what you said above BTW) and it has value even if it isn't well paid.     

Other food for thought.  There is a distinct possibility that many of the currently lucrative careers will either be not as lucrative by the time your kids get to that age or b) automated away entirely.  I have seen it in my generation with certain professions.  You have very little idea what will be considered valuable in 20-30 years and neither do I. 


Pigeon

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2017, 11:19:45 AM »
I had a father who was pretty much exactly like the OP.  He badgered me into getting a STEM degree.  I did fine in college, but didn't really want to do it as a career, despite Dad's wishes.  I do something completely unrelated, have  a very good job that I like a great deal, make good money and have outrageously good benefits.  It took years of being miserable in my STEM job to get into something I like.

My non-STEM siblings have all done quite well for themselves, too, even my sisters with their language degrees and my brother with his philosophy degree.

But we all had a very strained relationship with my father, who while perhaps well-meaning, really just didn't get it.  I have to say, there weren't tons of tears when he died recently.

I have one kid who wants to major in CS.  While that's fine, I do worry about the job forecast in that field as the projected job outlook is significantly worse than most in terms of having a large negative growth, according to the Occupational Outlook Handbook.