Author Topic: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?  (Read 8032 times)

john6221

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2017, 11:22:04 AM »
^ That's not necessary. The kid is being dogmatic and inflexible, but he IS here and he's taking the criticism fairly politely. The lessons being offered might sink in eventually, but not if we act like assholes back. Be the bigger man.
As the son of a narcissist, my answer to you is, Nope.

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Cookie78

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2017, 11:26:46 AM »
Wow, you sound like a shitty person.

Lots of your responses are filled with things like, "Not many people are really good at art stuff, and it's foolish to pursue being on broadway."

You obviously have not spent much time with artist people or just highly motivated people in general.  You sound like you are projecting your own insecurities about not being really good at something. 

Have some hope and dreams for fucks sake.  Human beings are incredible and can achieve great things with perseverance and hard work.  You sound like you are too afraid to even try to do great things, and you are projecting this fear upon this forum and your future children.

Also, if your girlfriend is actually an artsy open minded person who disagrees with your likely dumb political view, she is going to dump you well before you can have any kids.
I never said it's foolish to chase Broadway. But, if you're a terrible actor it is.

If I'm Michael Jordan, I'll pursue basketball. If I barely made the JV team, I'd be stupid to pass up viable opportunities to try to play basketball.

Haha. Funny!!!

http://www.newsweek.com/missing-cut-382954

"In 1978, Michael Jordan was just another kid in the gym, along with 50 or so of his classmates, trying out for the Emsley A. Laney High School varsity basketball team. There were 15 roster spots. Jordan—then a 15-year-old sophomore who was only 5'10" and could not yet dunk a basketball—did not get one. His close friend, 6'7'' sophomore Leroy Smith, did. The team was in need of his length. “It was embarrassing not making the team,” Jordan later said. He went home, locked himself in his room and cried."

Guess he should have given up. :(

Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2017, 11:27:51 AM »
I mean, I don't HAVE to, but I want to have some general guidelines I can follow. I don't think planning ahead would be a bad idea. I want to have a good idea about how I'll teach, how I'll discipline, how much flexibility I'll give the children, etc.

Well, you've gotten a lot of feedback here, from people with kids, recommending less focus on the "discipline" part and more focus on the "flexibility" part.  You've just chosen to disregard it in favor of defending your preferred approach.  Which puts me basically in accord with lhamo:  I'm not sure you actually wanted advice on how to do those things; you wanted people to confirm that your approach is correct. 

So, good luck to you.  And I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky way.   
I'm not trying to disregard anything. I've said in this thread that I know I'm young and have a lot to learn, and I know I'll have to compromise a bit. All I've said is that I'm not willing to compromise ALL of my beliefs. I don't want to give them TOO MUCH flexibility, for example. The only people I feel like I've disregarded are those who either misrepresent
what I'm saying, or personally attack me.

Those who didn't all received non-snarky replies from my end.

I'm just trying to let you guys know that I am, in no way, suggesting I'll be an absolute dictator and emotionally abuse my kids. Not at all. I won't force them to go into anything, or talk down about them or their mother. I'd never do that. But that's what people are thinking.
Most abusers would never think what they are doing is abuse.  Yet, you'd like to ignore research into the field of child behavior and frankly it sounds like ignoring all psychology and follow what you want to do even when you are getting people, with experience, saying don't do that.  I'm with SisterX on this. 

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Proud Foot

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2017, 12:59:53 PM »
I want my kids to be successful. The thing I fear more than anything is my GF influencing our kid to get like an art degree or something, and the kid never being anything more than a Starbucks manager.

As I have read through this thread a few times I feel like you are defining the success of your children as financial success. 
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
Sure, you CAN retire early by working at a $30k job. But you can retire much quicker working at a $130k job.
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
I'd even be proud if my kid decided to forego college, and use those 4 years to make a bunch of money
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
because making $30k/year is not enough.

You want to instill the importance of finance and making a good decision with career choice? Teach them about importance of finance through how you manage your money and allowing them to observe you making financial decisions.  The career choice is a little different.  When it is time for them to be looking at colleges and career choices help them research and be realistic about career options within their area of interest.  I wouldn't discourage their interests and point them to STEM without helping them in that regard. There is a vast difference between someone majoring in art and working for an marketing firm than one who tries to sell their original works.

Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
I subscribe to, "Daughter, you can either design dresses by hand, and make nothing, or design them in CAD and make a good living. Don't be a dumbass."
Which medium you use to design has no bearing on how successful you are.  And using CAD to design a dress, IMO, is still considered an "art" and not STEM.

Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
For example, if I have a kid who is SO passionate about theme parks and recreation, sure, they could study tourism. But they'd be better off, for example, designing the rollercoasters at those parks.
What if they are passionate about theme parks and recreation because of the experience aspect of it? I believe there is a lot more opportunity for the hospitality/tourism aspect of theme parks than designing rollercoasters.  There were only 188 new roller coasters in 2016 with only 175 new ones scheduled for 2017, and this is worldwide. I don't know how many people or companies are involved in the design but I would guess a lot less than are involved in the operations for the locations those went into (and I don't mean the employees you actually see when you visit). 

acroy

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2017, 01:22:57 PM »
Fun thread!
A lot of similarly programmed MMM-ers beating on you OP, good job keeping your cool.
DW and I swim very much against the, ahem, current current re: kids. And most other things. We have significant experience with small kids, and no experience with big kids (yet, aside from being one), so take below in that context.

A few thoughts
- Kudos to OP for thinking ahead
- Kudos to Op for wanting to get GF on same page.
- OP obviously respects and loves GF: OP considers her DW material, and OP wants to be on the same page with her. These are acts of respect and love, duh.
- #1 parental duty is guide the kid's development into a good adult. The hard part is defining 'good'. Many people incorrectly define 'good' as 'happy'. Incorrect. Also, define 'happy'. It is difficult.

The approach we are guiding our kids into (and the approach I took myself, and my parents before me, and....) is that the job is a way to support yourself, to bring in the moolah. Any extra benefits that go along with it are side benefits. Nice, and to be taken into consideration, but not the main purpose of employment. So, try to be quite rational about it. Look at what fields/jobs are in good demand and pay well, and what you have aptitude in. Find a match, and go for it.

Any individual person generally has both aptitudes and passions. Things you are good at, and things you like. Often not the same thing! Additonally, each person has their own personality. For simplicity we'll say introvert/extrovert.

So, learn the person (what they are good at, what they like, what kind of person they are) and find good job fit! What a wonderful time it is to be alive, we have so many choices for employment. few of us have to dig in the earth all day every day to survive. Luxurious really.

Case Study: OP's future daughter (we'll call her Sarah)
Sarah is
- very good at math, but dislikes learning it, and ambivalent about using it
- loves the guitar and is reasonably good at it
- is neither a wallflower nor a party animal. Runs medium-warm.

A good career choice for Sarah would be something technical, using her ability to use math. Possibly finance/accounting, engineering, pick one. She will learn perseverance and fortitude (mental badassity) from forcing herself to learn the topic. Once learned, it is easy for her, so she will have a competitive advantage: her job is easy. She can do it quickly and efficiently. Also, she will largely be surrounded by introverts, while she's relatively outgoing - again, a competitive advantage. She will be well liked and known in her organization and will be promoted rapidly.  On the side, financed by her excellent job, she can play guitar as much as she pleases, joining the local music scene.

YMMV. Good luck!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 01:58:05 PM by acroy »
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2017, 01:40:41 PM »

What if they are passionate about theme parks and recreation because of the experience aspect of it? I believe there is a lot more opportunity for the hospitality/tourism aspect of theme parks than designing rollercoasters.  There were only 188 new roller coasters in 2016 with only 175 new ones scheduled for 2017, and this is worldwide. I don't know how many people or companies are involved in the design but I would guess a lot less than are involved in the operations for the locations those went into (and I don't mean the employees you actually see when you visit).
I mean, no two fields will ever line up exactly alike. And yeah, I understand that make probably isn't booming. My point was more that there are higher levels in many fields that can attained with some form of STEM education.

And again, I'm definitely NOT against people following their passions, I just don't think it should be your default career choice. Unless it's a pragmatic career, of course, in which case, that's awesome!

For example, if I have a son and he's a talented opera singer, but maybe not at the level he may need for where he wants to go with it. Rather than majoring in theater or a similar field, maybe he could find a way to indirectly get involved in the field, so he can hedge his failure risk a bit. He could work as, say, an acoustic engineer without having to worry about not being good enough to actually sing on stage. Doesn't mean he couldn't try out. And if he made it, great. If not, he'd have a great backup.

If my goal was to be the next David Gilmour, that doesn't mean I should major in music. With a large chance of failure, I'd probably be better off choosing a more lucrative career that had less risk, but allowed me the funds to, say, afford private guitar lessons, and get to the point I'd need to be to live off of it.

I don't know if what I'm saying makes sense. I still 100% want my children to follow their passions. Just if they're pretty unlikely to succeed by following their passions, there are always roundabout ways of doing things while hedging your risk.


vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2017, 01:49:30 PM »
guys,  this is also the same poster, who thinks people that do not make enough money in their home state, should move to a new state and be homeless.

we know what type of person he is, instead of hoping for his growth, it's easier to ignore him. i feel like he does not currently have the capacity to understand and take your advice on children rearing and dating and marriage.

the real question is: what would his GF think of this thread?

if she's his everything and ready to be his wife, she will find this acceptable.

but if I found a thread, in which my bf asked, for the best way to convince my future children to value nothing I have dedicated my life to, we would be over.

i think the poster is a snake in the grass, and clearly, those ruler blows caused more damage than he realizes.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2017, 01:54:01 PM »

but if I found a thread, in which my bf asked, for the best way to convince my future children to value nothing I have dedicated my life to
Good thing you didn't find any thread like that.

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »

but if I found a thread, in which my bf asked, for the best way to convince my future children to value nothing I have dedicated my life to
Good thing you didn't find any thread like that.


so are you just moving from ' I'm young and have a lot to learn, and I know I'll have to compromise a bit." to being snarky and defensive?


would you show this thread to your GF guilt free with zero expectation of hurting her feelings?

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2017, 02:05:38 PM »
My mother was born in post-war France from Polish parents. According to them, she should have been, at most, a teacher (because she was a woman). She has a PhD in astrophysics from Stanford. My father was born in a middle-class Canadian family, his father was in the military and his mother didn't work because she took care of the children. Education was important, but they couldn't help him financially and wouldn't have wanted to considering he could have gotten a decent job with a regular simple degree. He has a PhD in mathematics also from Stanford.

They are millionaires several times over. Yeah, okay, they're in the STEM fields.

They are proof that your children are going to do and be whoever the f*** they want.

They would have liked us to be STEM as well, because it's something they understood.

Instead, my sister is a cheesemaker with her own business, I majored in Anthropology but now work in comm. and PR.

They paid for our education (a "useless" degree according to you).

Now I put aside over 50% of my salary, make good money, have real estate, and will otherwise be able to FIRE quite early. With a "useless" degree and a non-STEM job.

There is one reason why I was able to accumulate good money with a "useless" degree. And it has 100% nothing to do with the degree.

It's because my parents taught me about money, how it works, what credit means, what is a mortgage, what is compound interest, etc.

That's it.

Teach your children to understand finances. If they do, they will make the right choices for them and they WON'T BE BROKE.

You can be broke with a STEM job and 100k salary. And you can be rich with a Anthropology degree, PR job and 50k salary. One isn't "easier" than the other if you don't know what the f*** you're doing with the money coming in anyway.

The path to wealth has strictly nothing to do with your degree, and everything to do with your grasp on the concept of money.

Teach them to grasp finances, and they will live a good life.

Tell them how to live their life and they will cut you out of it before the end.

I understand where you're coming from, because my partner (an engineer with a PhD) thinks the same way as you. We have many discussions, as you and your GF do, about raising our children and paying for their education according to our standards. But I would have been miserable and felt cornered if my parents had stated that they would only pay for my degree if it was a subject of their choosing. Instead, they said, "we'll pay for your undergrad, but anything beyond that is on you." As such, I knew what I was getting into and I was responsible for myself as soon as I finished my degree. But more importantly, as I said above, how transparent they were with me in terms of their own money management and setting financial priorities gave me a far better edge than anything else. And because of that healthy relationship, I have always felt I could count on them for advice. Including career advice - even if it isn't STEM. Don't count that influence out; it's important.

As I see it, I think STEM people tend to build more wealth because they are more apt to be interested in the mathematical implications of personal finance and optimization. Not the other way around. Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Perhaps personalities that are drawn to the STEMs are also drawn to financial optimization.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:17:59 PM by TravelJunkyQC »

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2017, 02:07:52 PM »
Hi Monkey, you know it's funny. People on this very forum are very quick to say "stupid idiots who found themselves having kids with incompatible people blah blah this is something you should talk about BEFORE you get married" and now these same people are saying "whoa buddy chill out, you haven't even had kids yet."  You just can't win!

So regarding your question. Kids and humans in general, learn by imitation. Full stop. They will see you and your values (and your wife and her values) and they will absorb them through osmosis. As long as you don't lecture them, or push them, or walk around like you're god's gift to children everywhere, they will probably respect you and even want to be like you.

In order to help them understand your point about making smart career choices, you need to have the kind of relationship with them where they can come to you with their problems. As you'll soon find out (once you have kids and if you have any self-awareness) that kind of relationship doesn't blossom with authoritarian parenting.  I was like you before kids! I thought I had to teach them the way. Then I realized that I just need to nurture my relationship with them and they'll WANT to find out what I think, and they'll WANT to take my advice.

So, my best advice to you is to read this book: "How to Talk so Kids will Listen & Listen So Kids will Talk" https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-ebook/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492545611&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+talk+so+kids+will+listen+and+listen

Don't worry, it's not coddling, or permissive parenting. But it is about how to create the kind of relationship with your kids where they'll look to you for counsel when making important decisions in life! 

Read it now, it's also great for learning how to communicate with other humans in your life, even adult humans. So it'll be good help to get your concerns expressed to your gf.
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2017, 02:15:12 PM »
Hi Monkey, you know it's funny. People on this very forum are very quick to say "stupid idiots who found themselves having kids with incompatible people blah blah this is something you should talk about BEFORE you get married" and now these same people are saying "whoa buddy chill out, you haven't even had kids yet."  You just can't win!

So regarding your question. Kids and humans in general, learn by imitation. Full stop. They will see you and your values (and your wife and her values) and they will absorb them through osmosis. As long as you don't lecture them, or push them, or walk around like you're god's gift to children everywhere, they will probably respect you and even want to be like you.

In order to help them understand your point about making smart career choices, you need to have the kind of relationship with them where they can come to you with their problems. As you'll soon find out (once you have kids and if you have any self-awareness) that kind of relationship doesn't blossom with authoritarian parenting.  I was like you before kids! I thought I had to teach them the way. Then I realized that I just need to nurture my relationship with them and they'll WANT to find out what I think, and they'll WANT to take my advice.

So, my best advice to you is to read this book: "How to Talk so Kids will Listen & Listen So Kids will Talk" https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-ebook/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492545611&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+talk+so+kids+will+listen+and+listen

Don't worry, it's not coddling, or permissive parenting. But it is about how to create the kind of relationship with your kids where they'll look to you for counsel when making important decisions in life! 

Read it now, it's also great for learning how to communicate with other humans in your life, even adult humans. So it'll be good help to get your concerns expressed to your gf.
Great post. The bolded. That's what I want more than anything. I want them to truly be able to see me as a good source of advice, as I saw my grandfather's advice.

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2017, 02:18:04 PM »
but you also want them to ignore your once and future wife? you aren't trying to convince your GF to be mustachian. you are trying to convince her to let you dominate your kids' futures.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2017, 02:22:44 PM »
but you also want them to ignore your once and future wife? you aren't trying to convince your GF to be mustachian. you are trying to convince her to let you dominate your kids' futures.
No, I'm not at all. I speak out heavily against kids being raised without both a motherly and fatherly figure around. Why would I subject my kid to all of the negative consequences associated with lack of either?

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2017, 02:31:16 PM »
but you also want them to ignore your once and future wife? you aren't trying to convince your GF to be mustachian. you are trying to convince her to let you dominate your kids' futures.
No, I'm not at all. I speak out heavily against kids being raised without both a motherly and fatherly figure around. Why would I subject my kid to all of the negative consequences associated with lack of either?

because you want that motherly figure to parrot what you think?

that and having a wife doesn't mean you have a motherly figure, just like not having a wife does not mean you don't have a motherly figure. ( so many negatives in one sentence)

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.


MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2017, 02:34:23 PM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2017, 02:37:08 PM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.


i am unaware of any negative effects.

but i have the first-hand experience of being told by one parent to never grow up to be like the other. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2017, 02:40:31 PM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.


i am unaware of any negative effects.

but i have the first-hand experience of being told by one parent to never grow up to be like the other.
Well, there are a myriad of psychological effects that can take place (too many to mention in this post), but some behaviors single-parent households DO effect, in very statistically-significant ways:

-Increased drop-out rates
-Increased drug and alcohol usage
-More aggressive behavior
-More incarcerations

The list can go on and on. Being raised by a single parent, ON AVERAGE, leads to far worse outcomes than just about anything else. Again, I'm saying ON AVERAGE. I already know some single parents will get offended and think I'm talking about ALL single parents, much like liberal arts majors have done ITT. I'm not.

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2017, 02:44:01 PM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.


i am unaware of any negative effects.

but i have the first-hand experience of being told by one parent to never grow up to be like the other.
Well, there are a myriad of psychological effects that can take place (too many to mention in this post), but some behaviors single-parent households DO effect, in very statistically-significant ways:

-Increased drop-out rates
-Increased drug and alcohol usage
-More aggressive behavior
-More incarcerations

The list can go on and on. Being raised by a single parent, ON AVERAGE, leads to far worse outcomes than just about anything else. Again, I'm saying ON AVERAGE. I already know some single parents will get offended and think I'm talking about ALL single parents, much like liberal arts majors have done ITT. I'm not.

did those studies also tease out whether the parent could afford good child care during work, did it also adjust for income, and education level?

did it tease out environmental factors like the neighborhood or a divorce due to the same bad behavior listed above?

or even the amount of parental involvement a one parent household can typically give?

vivophoenix

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2017, 02:45:02 PM »
either way, you have received a lot of good advice. GL with your future wife's, future kids, and their future careers, and their future earnings.

honeybbq

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2017, 03:05:29 PM »
You are "putting the cart before the horse".

I would suggest you focus on your relationship with your potential wife.  If and when you have children, discuss the particulars then.  I don't think you need to discuss every last detail about how you want your kids educated NOW...
I mean, I don't HAVE to, but I want to have some general guidelines I can follow. I don't think planning ahead would be a bad idea. I want to have a good idea about how I'll teach, how I'll discipline, how much flexibility I'll give the children, etc.

@nessness Well, I've already said that I was raised to believe that work is for money, hobbies are for fun. Hopefully both line up, but don't be a dumbass and throw away opportunity because something else might be more fun.

Sure, I'd love NOTHING more than to be the greatest running back to ever play in the NFL. But this is real life. Passion =/= talent. Find a field that you're passionate about AND it pays well. Passion means nothing if you're barely scraping by.


That's the thing. You don't get to pick your child. What you THINK should work, or what worked with YOU will not necessarily work with your child.

I grew up in a strict military household so you can imagine how I was raised, and I LAUGHING at the idea of making my 5 year old do wall sits and planks as punishment as you suggest.

You will have to see what works with your child and how to reach them. You will have to learn to adapt. A preconceived notion is going to do nothing but inhibit your relationship with them, and continuing to not change with your child will lead them to resent you.

Pushkina2

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2017, 03:37:35 PM »
Good luck to you, OP. I'm going to leave it at that.

Tiger Stache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2017, 03:46:48 PM »
Find another GF. You're wasting time worrying about your future children's incomes.

Ann

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2017, 04:27:24 PM »
First, I would like to say I am pleased and surprised OP has stuck with the thread thus far.  Some commenters have been quite rude.

I, for one, AM glad you are discussing these things in advance.  It is obviously something you care about, and I think it is important that you and your future wife be on board with how you approach children and finances. 

Second, OP you say it isn't "my way or the highway" but that it not how you are presenting yourself.  You are saying you are willing to pay for a college education, but ONLY with a pre-approved list of majors.  This DOES actually sound like a "my way or you're on your own" mentality.  I think this is the part you will have to let go.  You and your partner can decide whether you will pay for any amount of college, but I think you will have to trust your child to make a decision and live with the consequences.  You can set an example and discuss your opinions, but I don't think it would be wise to reject too harshly if they do not follow the exact path you choose. 

I do appreciate that you seem to recognize this decision would need to be made in tandem with your partner.  If you are saving money together for college, it would likely cause a lot of strife if one of you suddenly decided to cut off funding if the kid declares an English major sophomore year.  Honestly, the first time I read your initial post I thought you WERE saying you would unilaterally decide to control the money that you and your wife saved.  Then I realized the whole point of the thread was to convince your future wife, so that probably isn't so at all.

Be a role model.  Help the kid explore practical applications to his/her interests and talents.  I think by the time they are 18, however, you are going to have to let them make some mistakes.  Even mistakes that have consequences.

I think going $117,000 into debt for my education started me on the path to MMM.  I'm not that mustachian, but am far better than my friends.  If I didn't have the external pressure of debt, I may not have done so much research/reading and worked so hard to pay off that huge, over-whelming debt.   I definitely could have done it better, but it worked out well in the end.


« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:41:36 PM by Ann »

dhc

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #124 on: April 18, 2017, 04:34:44 PM »
would you show this thread to your GF guilt free with zero expectation of hurting her feelings?

This. I'm not super worried about your kids, because you don't have them yet. But please, show your girlfriend this thread. It's very possible many of us (myself included) have misread your tone and she'll just say "well, that's my Mr Monkey - not very good at expressing himself, a little bit hard-headed, but trying to figure out the best solution for something he cares about, which I love about him." If so, great!

On the other hand, it's possible your approach to this will cause her rethink just how sure of a thing marriage and children are for the two of you. I know that doesn't sound like a good thing now since you're crazy about her, but if the two of you aren't compatible you're going to figure out eventually. Better to to do it before it involves divorce and splitting custody.

JoRocka

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #125 on: April 18, 2017, 04:45:18 PM »
Sad that the arts are 'useless'to you.

Also secondly sad that you seem to think giving money for and education gives you the rights to a person's life path. You want a say in how the money is used. Then you use it. And keep it. Giving education is a gift. Not an ultimatum to hold over your child's head. That's fucked up.

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surfhb

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #126 on: April 18, 2017, 05:08:39 PM »
24 years old, unmarried with no kids.....

I pretty much stopped listening to your opinions on this particular subject after that.   LOL

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #127 on: April 18, 2017, 05:10:37 PM »
24 years old, unmarried with no kids.....

I pretty much stopped listening to your opinions on this particular subject after that.   LOL
Not saying I'm right about anything said in this thread, but saying I'm wrong due to those things is a logical fallacy.

surfhb

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #128 on: April 18, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »
24 years old, unmarried with no kids.....

I pretty much stopped listening to your opinions on this particular subject after that.   LOL
Not saying I'm right about anything said in this thread, but saying I'm wrong due to those things is a logical fallacy.

Hmm...well you may be right.    Add 15 years, marriage and kids and we will see.    But, thinking you or your life will be any where near the way it is now after 15-20 years, a wife and kids is just plain.....immature thinking ;)

tyort1

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #129 on: April 18, 2017, 05:47:24 PM »
For example, I think that parenting essentially IS indoctrination, so trying to at least mold your kids, within reason, shouldn't be frowned upon. But, for the most part, I don't think we'll have too many issues. Mainly just me being of the tough love mentality.

You are simply wrong about this.  Kids are who they are and you cannot make them 'better' or different than what they are.  The only thing you accomplish by trying, is to screw them up. 

Let me repeat that - parent's can't improve their kids, but they sure can f- them up. 

That's the choice you have.  Hope you make the right call.
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KateH

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #130 on: April 18, 2017, 06:12:56 PM »
okay, I can say this because I'm a grandmother with a successful kid and I'm a secretary and my husband mows grass for a living - hey asshat, you can push your kid into whatever you want - my mom is a math phd but I grow shit and save 75% of my income without college. You cannot have children and put that kind of pressure on them. Really? This is what keeps you up at night? Do you want your kids to come home on holidays? We all want our children to be successful but success is not always measured in what you can see.

Janie

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #131 on: April 18, 2017, 07:15:38 PM »
OP, I would focus on getting your own house in order. I looked at your posting history. You say you have significant debt and a car you can't afford. You mentioned in one post that your plan was to move your girlfriend into to your parents' house with you in order to save some money then get an apartment (after you land a higher paying job than the one you have now). If I were your parents I would say "no way!" to this plan. Think more about self-discipline and less about disciplining future children. You're just not there yet.

My advice: Get yourself on sound financial footing and establish independence. Increase your income, reduce debt, save what you can so that you can eventually be a responsible, reliable spouse and parent when you're ready.



MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #132 on: April 18, 2017, 07:44:56 PM »
hey asshat
Stopped reading there. I'm all for criticism. But why waste my time with personal attacks?

@Janie I won't disagree with you there. I 100% agree.

deborah

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #133 on: April 18, 2017, 10:20:40 PM »
There appear to be a couple of presumptions here that are somewhat incorrect.

We are in the MMM forum. Sure MMM was STEM. However, one of his basic premises is that you get your finances in order, and then RETIRE EARLY. His emphasis appears to me on living a happy, non-disruptive-to-the-planet lifestyle that you have earned by getting your finances in order, and not botting off others (this is an Australian term meaning to cadge, and is applied to anything from cigarettes to being dependent on someone else).

So, it seems to me that you may not have absorbed very much of the MMM message. You want to bot off your parents by living with them, rather than standing on your own feet, managing your lifestyle within your own income. Yet you think that you are more Mustashian than your GF.

So let's pretend we are not on the MMM forum, and you want your kids to be rich, and we will get onto the second presumption you appear to be making...

I have learnt through my life that the majority of people who are in any sort of rich list are not STEM (just look at any list you can put your hands on). Have you looked around you at who is rich and who isn't? I know a number of wealthy people (self-made millionaires), and not one of them (apart from MMM - whom I have met a couple of times, so I guess I should include) did a STEM course, or had a STEM career. So it appears to me that your basic premise (that STEM = money) is wrong. If you are STEM, the exercise should convince you that your premise is flawed.



BlueHouse

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2017, 04:21:11 AM »
You claims to love and respect her ... but you're going to do everything you can to undermine her as a parent? You're going to denigrate not just what she does but part of who she is? You're going to try to force onto hypothetical future children the idea that their mother is lesser because she's artsy, and they're not allowed to be like her? Oh, I know you're going to argue and claim that's not what they're doing, but it is. That is exactly what you're doing, by prioritizing one narrow set of fields above all others.


This. This is why I said you have contempt for you gf. If you think any future children won't see the contempt in your eyes, your face, and your heart, you are mistaken. This is how children learn, by watching others. And they will either learn to treat their mother (and other women) as worthless just as dear old dad taught, or they will rebel and hate you for treating her so disrespectfully.

If you don't see that this thinking is completely disrespectful to your partner, then you need to look harder. You must respect your gf, her choices, her contributions, as equal. Whether or not they bring in as much money as you do. Lucky for you, she seems willing to do the same for you.
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

NoStacheOhio

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2017, 06:35:40 AM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.

A. as the child of a single parent, go fuck yourself
B. as the parent of an extremely strong-willed young child, this whole thing is LOL
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #136 on: April 19, 2017, 06:43:57 AM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.

A. as the child of a single parent, go fuck yourself
B. as the parent of an extremely strong-willed young child, this whole thing is LOL

Why do you say that? No need to resort to personal attacks. I said not ALL single parents. It'd be pretty stupid for me to suggest all single parents, as I was raised by one. The statistics do not lie. Being raised by a single parent, ON AVERAGE, subjects you to higher dropout rates, incarceration rates, and drug use rates.

I can understand people disagreeing with me. That's fine. But there's no reason to be getting all riled up and telling me to fuck myself. I've clashed with people, but have yet to make a single personal attack.

While I can post the actual studies themselves all day, if you don't believe me, just take a look at what even the very liberal California government says:

http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf

70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes.
63% of suicides nationwide are individuals from single-parent families.
75% of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single-parent families.
More than half of all youths incarcerated in the U.S. lived in one-parent families as a child
Thirty-seven percent of families led by single mothers nationwide live in poverty. Comparatively, only 6.8% of families with married parents live in poverty, according to data from 2009 compiled by the Heritage Foundation.
Consider these dire statistics from single parent households:*
➲  63% of youth suicides (Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Bureau of the Census)
➲  90% of all homeless and runaway children
➲  85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders (Source: Center for
Disease Control)
➲  80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
➲  71% of all high school dropouts (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
➲  75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers (Source: Rainbows for All God`s Children.)
➲  70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
➲  85% of all youths sitting in prisons (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections 1992)
*U.S. Census Bureau, 2009-2011 American Community Surveys, 2012 Condition of Children in Orange County, America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2012 by Jonathan Vespa and Jamie M. Lewis
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 06:47:42 AM by MrMonkeyMoustache »

Anatidae V

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #137 on: April 19, 2017, 06:52:16 AM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.

A. as the child of a single parent, go fuck yourself
B. as the parent of an extremely strong-willed young child, this whole thing is LOL

Why do you say that? No need to resort to personal attacks. I said not ALL single parents. It'd be pretty stupid for me to suggest all single parents, as I was raised by one. The statistics do not lie. Being raised by a single parent, ON AVERAGE, subjects you to higher dropout rates, incarceration rates, and drug use rates.

I can understand people disagreeing with me. That's fine. But there's no reason to be getting all riled up and telling me to fuck myself. I've clashed with people, but have yet to make a single personal attack.

While I can post the actual studies themselves all day, if you don't believe me, just take a look at what even the very liberal California government says:

http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf

70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes.
63% of suicides nationwide are individuals from single-parent families.
75% of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single-parent families.
More than half of all youths incarcerated in the U.S. lived in one-parent families as a child
Thirty-seven percent of families led by single mothers nationwide live in poverty. Comparatively, only 6.8% of families with married parents live in poverty, according to data from 2009 compiled by the Heritage Foundation.
Consider these dire statistics from single parent households:*
➲  63% of youth suicides (Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Bureau of the Census)
➲  90% of all homeless and runaway children
➲  85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders (Source: Center for
Disease Control)
➲  80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
➲  71% of all high school dropouts (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
➲  75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers (Source: Rainbows for All God`s Children.)
➲  70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
➲  85% of all youths sitting in prisons (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections 1992)
*U.S. Census Bureau, 2009-2011 American Community Surveys, 2012 Condition of Children in Orange County, America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2012 by Jonathan Vespa and Jamie M. Lewis
Hang on, though, is that correlation or causation? Because the way you talk about it, it sounds like it's the cause, which isn't exactly right.

Also since you want to be an influencing and trusted advisor in your child's life, and liked the idea of "how to listen so kids will talk", I recommend delving a bit further into parenting books - there's quite a range out there of very good ones, and I'm finding them generally applicable to dealing with adults as well!

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #138 on: April 19, 2017, 06:58:57 AM »
The numbers and scope of the studies are statistically significant. There is, of course, no way to say with 100% accuracy that something is CAUSED by another thing, but ignoring the VOLUMES of studies that corroborate these claims, when in this very thread I was told to not ignore psychology studies, is hypocritical.

Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #139 on: April 19, 2017, 06:59:37 AM »

and i don't think there are negative consequences to one parent households as it refers to a gendered presence.
usually, a one parent household suffers from a scarcity of tangible resources: energy and money.
There are quite a few psychological effects of being raised by a single parent. It is also associated with all kinds of negative behavior. Definitely not something to aspire to.

A. as the child of a single parent, go fuck yourself
B. as the parent of an extremely strong-willed young child, this whole thing is LOL

Why do you say that? No need to resort to personal attacks. I said not ALL single parents. It'd be pretty stupid for me to suggest all single parents, as I was raised by one. The statistics do not lie. Being raised by a single parent, ON AVERAGE, subjects you to higher dropout rates, incarceration rates, and drug use rates.

I can understand people disagreeing with me. That's fine. But there's no reason to be getting all riled up and telling me to fuck myself. I've clashed with people, but have yet to make a single personal attack.

While I can post the actual studies themselves all day, if you don't believe me, just take a look at what even the very liberal California government says:

http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf

70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes.
63% of suicides nationwide are individuals from single-parent families.
75% of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single-parent families.
More than half of all youths incarcerated in the U.S. lived in one-parent families as a child
Thirty-seven percent of families led by single mothers nationwide live in poverty. Comparatively, only 6.8% of families with married parents live in poverty, according to data from 2009 compiled by the Heritage Foundation.
Consider these dire statistics from single parent households:*
➲  63% of youth suicides (Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Bureau of the Census)
➲  90% of all homeless and runaway children
➲  85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders (Source: Center for
Disease Control)
➲  80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
➲  71% of all high school dropouts (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
➲  75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers (Source: Rainbows for All God`s Children.)
➲  70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
➲  85% of all youths sitting in prisons (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections 1992)
*U.S. Census Bureau, 2009-2011 American Community Surveys, 2012 Condition of Children in Orange County, America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2012 by Jonathan Vespa and Jamie M. Lewis
When you post information I can't help but wonder if you are ignorant or willfully ignorant.  Someone already addressed this but maybe you need it laid out more obviously.  Single parenthood is correlated with lower income.  Lower income is correlated with the above issues.  It has nothing to do with the genders of the parents involved nor truly with single parenthood.  If a single parent has the money and the time (or a support structure like involved friends or extended family) the issue above are no more than the average two parent family.  And in regards to gender, multiple studies have shown that child of gay parents have equal or better outcomes than children of straight parents.

chrisgermany

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #140 on: April 19, 2017, 07:00:53 AM »
Most kids do not follow the words of their parents but imitate their behavior.
So try to become a model for your future kids.
If they see you making good decisions they will learn how to make good decisions.
If they see you taking one step at a time and following your goals they will learn how to ....

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #141 on: April 19, 2017, 07:04:38 AM »

When you post information I can't help but wonder if you are ignorant or willfully ignorant.  Someone already addressed this but maybe you need it laid out more obviously.  Single parenthood is correlated with lower income.  Lower income is correlated with the above issues.  It has nothing to do with the genders of the parents involved nor truly with single parenthood.  If a single parent has the money and the time (or a support structure like involved friends or extended family) the issue above are no more than the average two parent family.  And in regards to gender, multiple studies have shown that child of gay parents have equal or better outcomes than children of straight parents.
And the studies mentioned took income into consideration. Stop being so condescending. Just because you don't like the outcome of a set of statistics doesn't mean they're not valid.

Regarding being raised by gay parents, I never once mentioned that. Clearly you have a bone to pick, and it's not with me, since I couldn't care less about that issue.

deborah

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #142 on: April 19, 2017, 07:05:21 AM »
I notice that you have avoided answering my post.



MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #143 on: April 19, 2017, 07:10:26 AM »
I'm perfectly fine continuing to discuss issues with people. At the very least someone (me, you, or whoever) might take something positive away from it and learn something.

But if this will devolve into "my studies are valid, but if you post them, they're not", then this conversation is pointless.

@deborah I can't always get to everyone's posts, there's a lot of them, and I take time to type out my answers as best as I can. Regarding what you said, I'm not all-in on being Mustachian, particularly on the lifestyle aspect, and I'l fully admit that. My interest in being Mustachian is solely about FIRE. Whatever floats your boat.

And yes, I understand very well that most of the 1% in the world aren't STEM majors. And, yes, I know successful people that aren't STEM majors. But looking at the 1% is looking at the outliers. It's like taking a look at a running back that average 1 yard per carry for 24 carries, and then breaks off a 99 yard run. Sure, he's now run for 4.92 ypc, but that was just inflated by one exception to the rule.

deborah

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #144 on: April 19, 2017, 07:17:33 AM »
I think that mot of the 20% (or wherever you want to draw the line) are not STEM either. Look around you. There are plenty of pretty successful people who don't even have a degree. And remember that the level of money earnings have nothing to do with FIRE abilities - just look at Arebelspy and his wife.



Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #145 on: April 19, 2017, 07:24:14 AM »

When you post information I can't help but wonder if you are ignorant or willfully ignorant.  Someone already addressed this but maybe you need it laid out more obviously.  Single parenthood is correlated with lower income.  Lower income is correlated with the above issues.  It has nothing to do with the genders of the parents involved nor truly with single parenthood.  If a single parent has the money and the time (or a support structure like involved friends or extended family) the issue above are no more than the average two parent family.  And in regards to gender, multiple studies have shown that child of gay parents have equal or better outcomes than children of straight parents.
And the studies mentioned took income into consideration. Stop being so condescending. Just because you don't like the outcome of a set of statistics doesn't mean they're not valid.

Regarding being raised by gay parents, I never once mentioned that. Clearly you have a bone to pick, and it's not with me, since I couldn't care less about that issue.
You ignored half of what I said and no, the majority of work regarding single parenthood did not originally consider income and/or support structure.  Given that I got my BS in this field, I am pretty sure I do have more knowledge in it than you.  And I am not being condescending, or at least no where near where I could be.  You are either ignorant or willfully so, when you compare research into the field of child psychology with huffington post articles.  Either you don't understand the difference between peer reviewed data and a news article or you are willfully ignoring the difference.  Those are the two options based on your behavior on here.
And the reason I included the gay parents bit was also your statements on here, see post 115.  You said
Quote
I speak out heavily against kids being raised without both a motherly and fatherly figure around. Why would I subject my kid to all of the negative consequences associated with lack of either?
So I corrected the ignorant statement that you require both a motherly and fatherly figure around.  Two good male or female role models have been shown to be just as well, if not better.
And no, the data you showed was not studies that took into account income.  In fact what you posted was no study at all, it was a  data from a census survey.  Again, showing either ignorance on research into this field or a willful ignorance. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #146 on: April 19, 2017, 07:25:14 AM »
I think that mot of the 20% (or wherever you want to draw the line) are not STEM either. Look around you. There are plenty of pretty successful people who don't even have a degree. And remember that the level of money earnings have nothing to do with FIRE abilities - just look at Arebelspy and his wife.
And I agree with that. People can definitely be successful without a STEM degree. I will readily admit that. I'm just going off of averages and high-paying employability in their fields.

And yes, there are also many people that are successful without a degree. If I could go back, I would outright skip college and get into pipe welding, electrical work, or plumbing. The trade unions are basically on their knees pleading to have more skilled tradesmen. I'd be delighted if my kid decided to be a plumber. I know millionaire plumbers, and quite a few that EASILY rake in 6 figures.

Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #147 on: April 19, 2017, 07:26:36 AM »
I'm perfectly fine continuing to discuss issues with people. At the very least someone (me, you, or whoever) might take something positive away from it and learn something.

But if this will devolve into "my studies are valid, but if you post them, they're not", then this conversation is pointless.

@deborah I can't always get to everyone's posts, there's a lot of them, and I take time to type out my answers as best as I can. Regarding what you said, I'm not all-in on being Mustachian, particularly on the lifestyle aspect, and I'l fully admit that. My interest in being Mustachian is solely about FIRE. Whatever floats your boat.

And yes, I understand very well that most of the 1% in the world aren't STEM majors. And, yes, I know successful people that aren't STEM majors. But looking at the 1% is looking at the outliers. It's like taking a look at a running back that average 1 yard per carry for 24 carries, and then breaks off a 99 yard run. Sure, he's now run for 4.92 ypc, but that was just inflated by one exception to the rule.
Again, it is not about the fact that your studies are invalid but that you are not posting studies.  Or understanding why they are not actually studies. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #148 on: April 19, 2017, 07:30:04 AM »
Given that I got my BS in this field, I am pretty sure I do have more knowledge in it than you.
And this is where I make my exit. Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy. The volumes of studies on the subject back up the claims that being raised by a single parent, whether or not it's due to poverty, is not an ideal environment for raising a child.

It doesn't mean I hate single mothers, or think they can't be successful. It's just going by AVERAGES. I don't see at all why my claims about single parent households are being objected to. There's a long list of studies proving it.

And I know I did use the word afterwords, but I wasn't trying to suggest they were actual studies. I said in that post, "while I can post the actual studies themselves all day". Now, do I consider myself an expert in the field? Obviously not. But to suggest that single parenthood is ideal for the kid (because the only alternative is that it's not) is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 07:34:36 AM by MrMonkeyMoustache »

Gin1984

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #149 on: April 19, 2017, 07:39:44 AM »
Given that I got my BS in this field, I am pretty sure I do have more knowledge in it than you.
And this is where I make my exit. Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy. The volumes of studies on the subject back up the claims that being raised by a single parent, whether or not it's due to poverty, is not an ideal environment for raising a child.

It doesn't mean I hate single mothers, or think they can't be successful. It's just going by AVERAGES. I don't see at all why my claims about single parent households are being objected to. There's a long list of studies proving it.

And I know I did use the word afterwords, but I wasn't trying to suggest they were actual studies. I said in that post, "while I can post the actual studies themselves all day". Now, do I consider myself an expert in the field? Obviously not. But to suggest that single parenthood is ideal for the kid (because the only alternative is that it's not) is ridiculous.
That is not a true statement.  Single parenthood is not the causal factor for lower success rates for children.  Poverty is and single parenthood is correlated with poverty.  You don't seen to understand the difference between the two and as I stated before, research article that account for income show no difference in success based on parent structure assuming a support structure.  You keep stating false statements and THAT is why I said you were either ignorant or willfully so.  Or I could say you are liar, that is another option.