Author Topic: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?  (Read 8511 times)

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Basically, me and my GF have already decided we want to get married and have kids someday. I'm pretty Mustachian, and she's starting to try to be, but I REALLY want my kids to be. I understand that a big part of that is career choice. Sure, you CAN retire early by working at a $30k job. But you can retire much quicker working at a $130k job. Here's where our differences kick in.

She's a very liberal, artsy person that believes you should follow your passion, and you can be anything you want to be. I'm more of the Mike Rowe/Red Foreman/Bernie Mac conservative. I believe that you should bring your passion with you, not follow it, and you'd be stupid not to bring it to a STEM field.

I want my kids to be successful. The thing I fear more than anything is my GF influencing our kid to get like an art degree or something, and the kid never being anything more than a Starbucks manager.

I'm not saying I'll force my kid to go into any particular field, because you can combine just about ANY interest/hobbies with STEM fields, but I absolutely refuse to pay for, or support, a useless degree (I have a whole list).

Hell, I'd even be proud if my kid decided to forego college, and use those 4 years to make a bunch of money, get 4 years extra of experience, and not waste money on tuition by learning a trade.

Basically, my GF thinks an 18-year-old KID (let's be honest, 18-year-olds are NOT adults) should be given free reign to ruin their life by getting a $60k art/history/etc. degree. I think that I'll need to knock some sense into that little shithead, because making $30k/year is not enough.

How do you traverse such a polarizing situation? My GF and I will probably never agree on this, but I absolutely want to do everything in my power to ensure my child either learns a trade, or gets a STEM degree (that's not biology).

What are some things I can do to instill in my child the importance of finance, and making a good decision with career choice? How can I start to convince my wife that a little authoritarian parenting ("tough love") may be what's needed after high school?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 01:24:46 PM »
You need to chill.  I would never have children with you with that extremely inflexible (and unrealistic) set of demands.  STEM is great.  The world also needs artists, and who the fuck are you to tell anyone, especially your child, that making any amount of money "isn't enough"?  You can instill financial responsibility in a child without: 1) being a demeaning asshole, and 2) teaching them that your respect is contingent on their profession/earning potential.
Who am I to tell them? Well, their father. I think I pretty much have that right. I won't FORCE them into anything, but there's no way in hell I'm financing an art degree.

Me and my GF being FIRE is not enough, I want my kid(s) to be as well. And you don't become FIRE by getting a degree that won't really get you anywhere.

Besides, the world certainly does not need artists. They make pretty things, and that's great, but there is no inherent need for them.

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 01:25:51 PM »
MrMonkeyMustach, I'm sure what you're trying to convey is that you really want your potential kids to have long, happy, and fulfilled lives. Just like any parent, or potential parent. That part is really good.

But in the interest of reducing the amount of misery in the world, I'd urge you to broaden your definition of success.  The first step isn't to ask the forum how to win the argument with your girlfriend, it's to examine your own consciousness. Parents can overlay a lot of software into their kids, but if you create too much conflict with the firmware you'll create huge problems. This part is really bad, and smacks of some pretty strong hubris.


I'm not saying I'll force my kid to go into any particular field, because you can combine just about ANY interest/hobbies with STEM fields, but I absolutely refuse to pay for, or support, a useless degree (I have a whole list).

"Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."

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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 01:29:19 PM »
MrMonkeyMustach, I'm sure what you're trying to convey is that you really want your potential kids to have long, happy, and fulfilled lives. Just like any parent, or potential parent. That part is really good.

But in the interest of reducing the amount of misery in the world, I'd urge you to broaden your definition of success.  The first step isn't to ask the forum how to win the argument with your girlfriend, it's to examine your own consciousness. Parents can overlay a lot of software into their kids, but if you create too much conflict with the firmware you'll create huge problems. This part is really bad, and smacks of some pretty strong hubris.


I'm not saying I'll force my kid to go into any particular field, because you can combine just about ANY interest/hobbies with STEM fields, but I absolutely refuse to pay for, or support, a useless degree (I have a whole list).

"Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."

-Henry Ford
I understand that. And the LAST thing I want is for my kid and/or GF to resent me, or rebel against me. That's not my goal at all. I just understand that, of all the successful artists and historians in the world, the chance of my kid being one is VERY low. On the other hand, getting, say, a Computer Science degree, the chance of my kid being successful is very high.

Of course, I am willing to compromise a bit, but if I feel as if compromising too much will cause my child to live a less-than-prosperous life, I will not.

I believe career choice should be about OPPORTUNITY, and you should learn to love your career, not choose a crappy one because it sounds cool.

Orvell

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 01:35:58 PM »
Small reminder that the world is interesting and beautiful because people *make* it that way, and emphasize it, and work to do so.
The arts aren't superfluous, they're a part of the reason we enjoy our environments (park design, architecture, sculpture, horticulture) and stories are literally what make us human, and are being made every day (poetry, novels, comics, TV, and movies). The arts are a big world, not just reserved for fine painters and poets who don't receive (often) their just deserts in pay.
It's true that the outcome from the arts is varied. Some make good money. Some don't. But please don't pretend that your potential child will be a sad sack for going into a field like the above. :) They might make the world more beautiful, or make it more understood, or even just live the life they want to lead and not one like yours.
You are thinking about this as a purely dollar-for-dollar transactional choice, and it's not that way for everyone. This board is full of people who treat dollars like workers, but in the end, we're all just humans trying to live our lives. And for some, making $30K/year and doing what they want *is* enough, contrary to your post. Your life will not be their life, their father or not. I am not, for example, following in the path my parents likely wanted. However they're supportive-- emotionally, and they were supportive financially through college--, and I support myself now and save a good chunk of change toward FIRE... despite my useless degree. ;)
Oh, and also?
I'm happy. :)

I'm not a parent, but I think you need to drastically change your mindset on your potential (!) children's success. Success is leaving the nest safely, supporting themselves, and being happy. There are literally tens of thousands of avenues to that. You can pay for their college, or not. That's up to you and your GF. Just don't expect them to follow Your Path and use funding college (or lack thereof) as collateral to force their hand towards Your Path... as it's not going to go the way you hope.
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rubybeth

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 01:41:10 PM »
Woo, boy, I bet you'd think my degree is pretty crappy. :P But guess what, the world does need people who are really fuckin' awesome at artistic pursuits. And if you're genuinely good at it, you can make butt tons of money. Look at violinist Joshua Bell (millionaire). Look at Richard Branson (dyslexic billionaire). Look at the many entertainers and artists who make plenty of money following their passion.

The thing is, you can't know what kind of kid you'll have. You also can't know what the job market will be like in 20+ years before you even reproduce. Maybe yoru kid will be a genius and be able to write code, or maybe they'll be an incredible opera singer and make millions of people weep at the beauty of their voice. You kind of have to be okay with whoever your kid will be--because you don't get to pick, and you might be surprised and delighted with a child who doesn't fit your ideal mold. You absolutely don't have to pay for your child to get a college degree that you don't agree with--but you can be clear about that without being an asshole.

The deal with my parents was that they'd pay for state university if I lived at home. I was willing to do that, and then went on to get a graduate degree on my own dime at the university of my choice. Once your child is closer to adulthood, you'll have a better idea of how to coach them for potential careers that might fulfill them, as well as earn them a solid income. Also, your child will be, surprisingly, a separate human being from YOU, and so will have their own ideas of what will fulfill them. FIRE may or may not do that for them.
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 01:45:39 PM »
C) Target end result
B) (Steps to take)??
A) Where you are now

C) Kids make intelligent decisions about career planning
B) Educate your kids about how to make great, rational choices that are fulfilling
A) Planning to direct your children and use financial incentives (and/or parental support provision/restriction) to (all but) force decisions

The question everyone but you (MrMonkeyMoustache) has, is how you can get from A to B.

A is "I'm in charge. That's why!" It's bad for employees, bad for kids and bad for humans in general! Intrinsic motivation comes from within. Personal fulfillment and satisfaction comes from making your own choices without fear of retribution especially from your parents.

Have you read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? He talks a lot about what has and hasn't worked as a parent, including an example very similar to yours, where a parent really wanted their kids to go to a specific college, and the kid kept fighting it... and eventually the parents took a step back, changed what they were doing, and showed their kids love and support no matter what choices the kids did which opened the door to even being a part of the decision-making process!

Don't convince. Don't force. Be a great example. Listen more than you talk. Guide, sure - definitely guide them. Definitely help them learn how to direct their money and efforts and times towards things they'll really value in life. But don't try to make their decisions for them before they're even born.
Well, I don't subscribe to, "I'm in charge, that's why!" I subscribe to, "Daughter, you can either design dresses by hand, and make nothing, or design them in CAD and make a good living. Don't be a dumbass."

Obviously, I can't FROCE them, but I see nothing wrong with trying to convince them. I don't think people quite understand what I'm saying. I want my child to do something they love. But I also understand that you can BRING your passion with you. You can LEARN to love a job that pays well and you're great at.

I simply fear paying for my child's $100k sociology degree, and watch as they (most likely) work a minimum wage job for the next 50 years, and never truly see the importance of financial fortitude. Maybe it's just the way I was raised. My family has always had strong beliefs about acquiring wealth, owning property, and establishing the family's legacy. I don't really see anything wrong with that mindset.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 01:51:00 PM »
Woo, boy, I bet you'd think my degree is pretty crappy. :P But guess what, the world does need people who are really fuckin' awesome at artistic pursuits. And if you're genuinely good at it, you can make butt tons of money. Look at violinist Joshua Bell (millionaire). Look at Richard Branson (dyslexic billionaire). Look at the many entertainers and artists who make plenty of money following their passion.

The thing is, you can't know what kind of kid you'll have. You also can't know what the job market will be like in 20+ years before you even reproduce. Maybe yoru kid will be a genius and be able to write code, or maybe they'll be an incredible opera singer and make millions of people weep at the beauty of their voice. You kind of have to be okay with whoever your kid will be--because you don't get to pick, and you might be surprised and delighted with a child who doesn't fit your ideal mold. You absolutely don't have to pay for your child to get a college degree that you don't agree with--but you can be clear about that without being an asshole.

The deal with my parents was that they'd pay for state university if I lived at home. I was willing to do that, and then went on to get a graduate degree on my own dime at the university of my choice. Once your child is closer to adulthood, you'll have a better idea of how to coach them for potential careers that might fulfill them, as well as earn them a solid income. Also, your child will be, surprisingly, a separate human being from YOU, and so will have their own ideas of what will fulfill them. FIRE may or may not do that for them.
Well, obviously, if they're a world-class singer or artist, I won't stop them. But, if they're like almost every other person on the face on the Earth, they'd be chasing fairy tales. I'm not saying to give up on your dreams, or to "settle", but you should also have a sense of realism. If you're a good, but not great singer, you're an idiot if you sell your truck to buy a plane ticket to LA to be on American Idol. If you're a good writer, but no Shakespeare, don't bother trying to make a career out of it.

Now, I think passions SHOULD be followed regarding hobbies, and you always hope that a kid's passion is also in-line with a well-paying career, but if not, I think it's my duty to lecture some sense into them about the real world.

The world is full of artists and writers working at Starbucks. Same can't really be said for the vast majority of STEM majors.

Of course there's always more to it, I DO define part of success as having a lot of money. It makes life so monumentally easier and more fulfilling that I don't see why someone SHOULDN'T aspire to it.

Heroes821

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 01:55:37 PM »
Basically, me and my GF have already decided we want to get married and have kids someday. I'm pretty Mustachian, and she's starting to try to be, but I REALLY want my kids to be. I understand that a big part of that is career choice. Sure, you CAN retire early by working at a $30k job. But you can retire much quicker working at a $130k job. Here's where our differences kick in.

She's a very liberal, artsy person that believes you should follow your passion, and you can be anything you want to be. I'm more of the Mike Rowe/Red Foreman/Bernie Mac conservative. I believe that you should bring your passion with you, not follow it, and you'd be stupid not to bring it to a STEM field.

I want my kids to be successful. The thing I fear more than anything is my GF influencing our kid to get like an art degree or something, and the kid never being anything more than a Starbucks manager.

I'm not saying I'll force my kid to go into any particular field, because you can combine just about ANY interest/hobbies with STEM fields, but I absolutely refuse to pay for, or support, a useless degree (I have a whole list).

Hell, I'd even be proud if my kid decided to forego college, and use those 4 years to make a bunch of money, get 4 years extra of experience, and not waste money on tuition by learning a trade.

Basically, my GF thinks an 18-year-old KID (let's be honest, 18-year-olds are NOT adults) should be given free reign to ruin their life by getting a $60k art/history/etc. degree. I think that I'll need to knock some sense into that little shithead, because making $30k/year is not enough.

How do you traverse such a polarizing situation? My GF and I will probably never agree on this, but I absolutely want to do everything in my power to ensure my child either learns a trade, or gets a STEM degree (that's not biology).

What are some things I can do to instill in my child the importance of finance, and making a good decision with career choice? How can I start to convince my wife that a little authoritarian parenting ("tough love") may be what's needed after high school?

Well in a recent post a few weeks ago you mention that you were early 20s, 22? 24?  If you are going to vehemently state that 18 year olds are not adults and even when raised to be responsible and with financial literacy, then maybe you should think back that 18 was not that long ago for you. 

I would recommend reading the book Rich Dad Poor Dad.  Also check out MMM's post covering jobs that make over $50,000 a year.  Hell read the most recent post about MMM's wife's Etsy shop.

While I agree that going for a BA in liberal Arts is probably not the Fastest route to FIRE or just FI. MMM's wife through self taught soap and jewelry making made $100,000+ in a year.

Rather than saying "Dearest Daughter if you want to live a happy fulfilled life, pick a job your not interested in so you can be FI ASAP and then do things you enjoy after a decade of being miserable" lets think along the lines of "If you want to design dresses by hand, lets me explain to you how manufacturing and raw material cost affects the prices of what you design and how starting your own business allows you to put more money away before taxes than if you work for someone else!" 

Orvell

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 01:58:33 PM »
Again: because your future and not-yet-existent children might be different from you. And wanting them to see the world your way will not make it so.

Also, the world is not entirely black and white when it comes to success outside of STEM. There are plenty of actual careers in the arts. And by "actual careers" I mean W-2 ones, not just freelancing. Orchestras have people playing in them, for money! And people teach weaving lessons, and paint murals, and write songs, and design chairs.

I'm glad to hear you'd support them having hobbies that aren't monetarily productive. Would you pay for lessons for those hobbies? Supplies? i.e. violin lessons for a kiddo, or voice lessons? Paint easels? Or would that be 'not a good return on dollar investment' because they would be 'hobbies?'
That's something you and your GF should probably discuss, too.
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 02:03:19 PM »


Well in a recent post a few weeks ago you mention that you were early 20s, 22? 24?  If you are going to vehemently state that 18 year olds are not adults and even when raised to be responsible and with financial literacy, then maybe you should think back that 18 was not that long ago for you. 
24. And yes, I know it wasn't too long ago, which is why it's hits so close to home for me. I made the same mistakes I'm talking about in this thread, and I don't want my child to do the same. I followed my passion, but it led nowhere. It was a waste of money, and put me in a huge financial hole.

Quote
I would recommend reading the book Rich Dad Poor Dad.  Also check out MMM's post covering jobs that make over $50,000 a year.  Hell read the most recent post about MMM's wife's Etsy shop.

While I agree that going for a BA in liberal Arts is probably not the Fastest route to FIRE or just FI. MMM's wife through self taught soap and jewelry making made $100,000+ in a year.
I've read both. And I understand it's not IMPOSSIBLE to be success doing careers like that, but those are the fringe exceptions. The vast majority of people that pursue those passions as careers end up broke and in debt. I just want my kid(s) to be successful.

Quote
Rather than saying "Dearest Daughter if you want to live a happy fulfilled life, pick a job your not interested in so you can be FI ASAP and then do things you enjoy after a decade of being miserable"
I definitely do NOT want that. I just understand that, for every passion that leads nowhere, there's probably a satisfying STEM job in that field that leads to greater things.

Quote
lets think along the lines of "If you want to design dresses by hand, lets me explain to you how manufacturing and raw material cost affects the prices of what you design and how starting your own business allows you to put more money away before taxes than if you work for someone else!"
And I will certainly try to teach them that stuff. Being your own boss is extremely liberating. I hope to one day achieve that goal. But even then, the vast majority of businesses will not succeed. It's just life. I want to improve the odds of my child's success as much as possible.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2017, 02:06:05 PM »

Of course, you can raise them all along with certain values, and you can help them work out the numbers for themselves. "If you pay $100k for a degree, and you make $20k/year after taxes, and you spend $19k/year just on living expenses, you won't have choices that you could have. Travel, freedom of time, etc..." Maybe, if you raise them just right, they'll say "daddy, I really want to be an artist, but I also like design enough to make money designing for a corporation, and since you taught me how to do so much for myself, I realized I can work for corporate for 10 years, and save up enough that I can do whatever kind of art I want for the rest of my life, and no one will get to decide anything for me ever again!"
This is all I'm looking to do. I want to instill them with those values. I just would be new to the whole parenting thing, and was not sure how parents here managed it if they did.

Heroes821

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2017, 02:12:08 PM »
I've read both. And I understand it's not IMPOSSIBLE to be success doing careers like that, but those are the fringe exceptions. The vast majority of people that pursue those passions as careers end up broke and in debt. I just want my kid(s) to be successful.
I


I think that's great that you read those already and are well away of the poor decisions of youth, I didn't find this stuff out till 27/28.  The bolded above I find especially important because we are NOT the vast majority.  We are Mustacians. We lead by example.  If you can teach the financial literacy that you have obtained to your children they can pursue almost anything and succeed at it because they will know that they need to of things outside of their goal.  They will understand how their employees ($$) need to be working for them. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2017, 02:14:36 PM »

I'm glad to hear you'd support them having hobbies that aren't monetarily productive. Would you pay for lessons for those hobbies? Supplies? i.e. violin lessons for a kiddo, or voice lessons? Paint easels? Or would that be 'not a good return on dollar investment' because they would be 'hobbies?'
That's something you and your GF should probably discuss, too.
100%. I'd highly encourage it, and go to every practice/game/concert/etc. My GF agrees. We both think that children should always have hobbies they're passionate about that we both support to the fullest extent.

But, where me and my GF differ is thinking that your career choice should be based on those passions. I simply believe that you can learn to love a career you're good at. I was never passionate about programming until I got good at it, for example. Now, that doesn't mean my kid HAS to go into programming. Not at all. I just think that, for most every hobby a kid has, there's usually a bunch of low-paying careers attached to it, and some much better STEM careers.

For example, if I have a kid who is SO passionate about theme parks and recreation, sure, they could study tourism. But they'd be better off, for example, designing the rollercoasters at those parks. If you're passionate about art, sure, you can major in it. But you could also becoming a graphical user interface designer, and be much better off.

Love animals? Sure, you could be a desk assistant at an animal hospital. But, you'd be much better off being an animal surgeon.

Orvell

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2017, 02:19:32 PM »
MrMonkeyMoustache, this last post of yours was great. I think you didn't clearly articulate any of that in the beginning post-- it was your way or the highway, and your way was money, and the highway was living in a shoebox while you wept for them, and there was no middle ground.
In this post, you're clearly expressing that their passions can be molded into STEM careers (or other high dollar careers), not set aside for them. That's rad, and I think something your kids will benefit from hearing (if and when they exist.) :)
Keep in mind they might also say, "fuck you, I hate STEM." It really isn't for everyone, in the end. Sure as hell isn't for me.
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missundecided

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2017, 02:27:32 PM »


Well in a recent post a few weeks ago you mention that you were early 20s, 22? 24?  If you are going to vehemently state that 18 year olds are not adults and even when raised to be responsible and with financial literacy, then maybe you should think back that 18 was not that long ago for you. 
24. And yes, I know it wasn't too long ago, which is why it's hits so close to home for me. I made the same mistakes I'm talking about in this thread, and I don't want my child to do the same. I followed my passion, but it led nowhere. It was a waste of money, and put me in a huge financial hole.


Sometimes, learning for yourself that such and such is a waste of money and/or led to nowhere IS the best lesson. Then you reevaluate where your priorities are. You can't stop your potential children from making mistakes, even if it's the same mistakes you yourself made. Have trust in your ability to guide your children as they grow up, and trust that they will eventually land on their feet--even if it's not the way you want them to.

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rubybeth

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2017, 03:06:28 PM »
Humans aren't code.
YET!

:( Kids aren't machines. You also don't know if you will have a kid who is disabled in some way and won't be able to ever have "a career" in the traditional sense. You might, but you might not.

I think you totally missed the point of my post, too. You can expose your kid to a lot of different things, but they are ultimately NOT YOU and will therefore do things that YOU DON'T LIKE or DON'T AGREE WITH. If that's a challenging concept, I suggest you wait a while to have a baby.
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Laura33

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2017, 03:11:35 PM »
OK, so, my first advice is to chill.  Your kids will learn more from what they see you do, day in and day out, than from anything you tell them.

Second, believe me when I say you have absolutely *no* idea what kind of kid you will get.  When I think back to what I assumed my kids would be like, and how I would raise them and train them and this and that, well, I can only laugh at my own hubris.  My kids came out of the womb who they are; there is no power on this earth that was going to change that.  The most humbling thing about parenting is realizing how little power you actually have to "mold" your kids in the ways you want and to keep them from making the same dumb-ass mistakes you did.  If you have an artistic kid, you cannot turn that child into an engineer, no matter how much you try; all you get is years of pain, a terrible relationship with your child (who is smart enough to know that Daddy doesn't love him because he isn't good enough at science/math), and a total crash and burn. 

Kids are going to be who they are, so what you need to do as a parent is to take the time to really learn who that is -- not who you want them to be, but who they are down deep, what their strengths and weaknesses are -- so you can then help them build on those strengths and convert them into useful, employable skills.  E.g., if you have an artistic kid, don't force them away from the arts, help point them toward "art that pays," like graphic design, working for advertising agencies, etc.  Broaden your own view of what is an "acceptable" field, so you can help your kids navigate to areas that make the most of their talents while still paying reasonable wages.  Yes, "follow your passion" is bullshit.  But it is true that your kids are most likely to succeed by building on something that they are already good at and enjoy, vs. something they can be marginally adequate at with a lot of effort.

And please do not assume that just because you learned to love something because you stuck with it, the same will be true for your kids.  Your kids will be many things, but they will not be you, and what worked for you may not work for them at all.  There are many, many people in this world for whom being forced to stick with something they don't like is a version of hell, and who will not learn to like it no matter how good they get at it.  I am one of those people.  Grit and resilience are awesome characteristics to build, but for many people are insufficient to fundamentally change what they enjoy.

Finally, always remember that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.  Your posts do tend to come across as authoritarian, as you are the dad, and you know best, and it is their job to listen to your advice and do what you say.  All I can say is that most kids who have any kind of a backbone rebel against that kind of approach.  So, you know, if you want to push your kids into the arts, the best way to do that may be to shove STEM down their throats.  Listen again to what some of the earlier posters said:  your goal cannot be to raise kids who make a certain specific decision -- it must be to raise kids who know how to make good decisions.  But the only way kids can actually learn how to make good decisions is to be given the freedom to make some bad ones along the way -- preferably long before they are being asked to borrow $200K for college.  The more headstrong your kid, the more you need to back off, provide education and guidance, and then let them go.  I think of myself as sort of like rubber bumpers along the side of the road -- my kids may bounce around six ways from Sunday while they figure things out, but as long as they are heading in the right direction and I am keeping them on the road, then I'm doing my job. 

Oh:  and have a little humility about your ability to identify the Jobs Of The Future, too.  There were a lot of trades going begging during the last housing bust, and there are a lot of petroleum engineers looking for work right now.  And some of us former English majors have -- miraculously -- managed steady employment and jobs well into the six figures.  I know, go figure. 
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

honeybbq

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2017, 03:17:35 PM »
Once you have children, you may realize that squashing their dreams and channeling them away from their calling is harder than you thought.

You don't have to finance their choices, but you do have to respect them if you want to keep a relationship with them.


My spouse and I both have PhDs in STEM fields. But my daughter (so far) loves art, art, and more art. We try to do math and science with her, but her fallback seems to be the arts. It's the way she came. She's still young, and maybe she'll change her direction. I don't know what she'll eventually do with her life. I hope she can earn enough to pay the bills and have a happy existence. But the last thing I'm going to do is take away her art supplies.

marty998

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2017, 03:38:49 PM »
MMM made more from his blog (a rather artsy pursuit) than his STEM career...

badassprof

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
I guess the head scratcher for me is that you don't even have kids and you are already worrying about what they will and won't do? I get it: I teach at a liberal arts school, and some majors seem more lucrative than others. But that said, I have a PHD in English and my partner a degree in music, and we make close to 300,000 a year. Go figure.

historienne

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2017, 05:11:19 PM »
Who am I to tell them? Well, their father. I think I pretty much have that right.

Parenting is going to offer you lots of opportunities for personal growth in this regard. 
(ie: Lol at the idea that this is remotely how functional parent-child relationships work).

human

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2017, 05:19:19 PM »
Jesus Christ you want to control the life of a kid that doesn't even exist yet. You aren't even married and you're talking about what degree your kids should have? Get a grip!

scantee

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2017, 05:20:36 PM »
What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2017, 05:50:03 PM »
What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?
I never said I couldn't love those qualities. Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't be with my GF, as you said. But, as my previous post suggested, I think that they could find much better STEM-related careers to go along with their passions.

Again, using the theme parks example. Sure, you could make next to nothing running some rides at a theme park. Or, you can design the rollercoasters and make quite a bit.

If you love theater, for example, rather than waste your time and money trying to make it on Broadway (a foolish pursuit), you could become an acoustical engineer.

Just saying that STEM-related paths offer FAR more lucrative careers, while still not straying from really any of your passions.

I mean, I'm VERY passionate about all things powerlifting. I love everything about it. But, as I learned the hard way, an exercise science degree is absolutely useless, and would lead me nowhere other than perpetual debt and struggle. However, since learning to program fairly well already, I've started on a path to creating a very unique and sought-after fitness app that I believe will change the online fitness game. I'm finding a way to combine my pragmatic major with my biggest passion.

dhc

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2017, 05:54:04 PM »
What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?
I never said I couldn't love those qualities. Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't be with my GF, as you said.

Do you, though? Or are those just things about her that you're OK with because you love other things about her?

If you two are so far apart on the careers your way-in-the-future children might theoretically have, what else are you this far apart on? I can think of about 50 things related to marriage and raising children that most people (including, I'd argue, most Mustachians) would consider more important than this, so if this is the only thing you're on opposite pages about, great. The way your OP comes off, though, you two don't sound very compatible in the first place. I'm a bit confused about why you're asking for arguments about this rather than looking for a new girlfriend who shares your values (and saving her from a life spent with someone who doesn't want his children to grow up to be like her).

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2017, 05:58:40 PM »
What is it you like about your girlfriend, your artsy, passionate girlfriend? Why are you with her if you find key aspects of her personality so off-putting? I assume you actually DO like those qualities in her, otherwise you'd have ended the relationship by now and found a yourself a conservative computer programmer. Since you do love the creative qualities in your GF, why is it so hard to imagine loving similar qualities in your own children?
I never said I couldn't love those qualities. Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't be with my GF, as you said.

Do you, though? Or are those just things about her that you're OK with because you love other things about her?

If you two are so far apart on the careers your way-in-the-future children might theoretically have, what else are you this far apart on? I can think of about 50 things related to marriage and raising children that most people (including, I'd argue, most Mustachians) would consider more important than this, so if this is the only thing you're on opposite pages about, great. The way your OP comes off, though, you two don't sound very compatible in the first place. I'm a bit confused about why you're asking for arguments about this rather than looking for a new girlfriend who shares your values (and saving her from a life spent with someone who doesn't want his children to grow up to be like her).
Yes, I do actually love those things about her. And it's pretty much one of the only big things we disagree on (besides politics by a mile, lol).

We both want to make a lot of money, retire early, and raise our kids in a loving environment. Sure, we'll definitely have times where we disagree with each other's parenting. For example, I think that parenting essentially IS indoctrination, so trying to at least mold your kids, within reason, shouldn't be frowned upon. But, for the most part, I don't think we'll have too many issues. Mainly just me being of the tough love mentality.

spjulep

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2017, 06:06:11 PM »
I agree with everyone who says to slow your roll. Hopefully, over the next 20 years, you will gain some patience and understanding that you can't control the world, especially your kids. That said, you can certainly introduce and model the idea that there are trade-offs in career choices, that there's more to people than their careers, and there are creative ways to build your passions into more traditional or accessible career choices.

It actually places a lot of pressure to say that people should find their one true calling and spend all day every day focusing on it. My life would have been easier if I wasn't always chasing the perfect job that perfectly fulfilled me, and just understood I could do something that I was good at and that I enjoyed well enough. It's actually quite liberating to accept that I don't have to drop everything to pursue what I think is a life passion (and maybe ends up being a phase), and that I am free to build out other parts of my personality outside of work.

lhamo

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 06:29:15 PM »
I'll never know for sure, because he died when I was 15, but I think my dad would have had a similar mindset to yours.   He was an engineer, and while he never explicitly said he expected us to go into STEM fields, I grew up with the knowledge that I was going to be expected to avoid student loan debt (my parents would NOT cosign for student loans) and support myself as an adult.   I ended up getting three degrees (BA, MA, PhD) in what you would consider a "useless" field (sociocultural anthropology).   Plan A was to become a professor, but my DH and I met in grad school, where we were working under the same advisor, and in a tight job market it was going to be difficult for one of us to get a tenure track job, let alone both.   An interesting opportunity opened up in a non-profit, so we pivoted.  A little over 15 years later, I FIREd at age 46.   DH followed me a few months later.   

DH and I never had individual salaries over 100k.   Our combined salary started at 100k in 2009, and peaked around 150k.  We managed to save a lot of money by living a relatively frugal lifestyle in a developing country, and also had some extremely well timed real estate investments.   

There are many paths to a satisfying, financially rewarding career and to FIRE.   Try to be more open in your thinking about which ones your future kids might take.   Instill in them the values of hard work, personal discipline/delayed gratification, optimization, care for themselves and others, and self-awareness.   Help them learn what their strengths are, and support them to develop them.  LET THEM MAKE MISTAKES!!!!!   And always let them know you love them for who they are, not what they do or what they earn.   

I like  to think my dad is smiling as he sees who I have become.    He died unexpectedly before he reached his planned early retirement age  (55).   I hope that by hitting FIRE nearly a decade earlier than that already impressive goal, and by freeing up my time and energy to care for my aging mom and my growing teens, that I have made him proud.  Even if I didn't become  an engineer like my brother or a software developer like  my sister (who are both older than me and still working!).
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Laura33

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 06:54:02 PM »
For example, I think that parenting essentially IS indoctrination, so trying to at least mold your kids, within reason, shouldn't be frowned upon. But, for the most part, I don't think we'll have too many issues. Mainly just me being of the tough love mentality.

Oh, fuck no.  Fuck, fuck, fuck no.

Please go read some books on child development/take some parenting classes before you have kids.  This approach works well for approximately 1% of kids.  The rest find it very difficult to see the "love" behind all of the "tough."
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 06:59:38 PM »
For example, I think that parenting essentially IS indoctrination, so trying to at least mold your kids, within reason, shouldn't be frowned upon. But, for the most part, I don't think we'll have too many issues. Mainly just me being of the tough love mentality.

Oh, fuck no.  Fuck, fuck, fuck no.

Please go read some books on child development/take some parenting classes before you have kids.  This approach works well for approximately 1% of kids.  The rest find it very difficult to see the "love" behind all of the "tough."
I said indoctrination, not brainwashing, if that's what you were thinking.

1 :  to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments :  teach

2 :  to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

Nothing wrong with that. I don't usually buy into the child development books. Sure, they can have some good information, but look at where it's gotten us. A bunch of spoiled, coddled kids that are incredibly entitled, and don't work hard a day in their lives. Plus, to be honest, I don't particularly see the social sciences as concrete sciences. We're only just beginning to scratch the surface of neuroscience as it is.

I'm not sure what the issue is. I'm not saying I'm going to brainwash my kid. But I also won't coddle him, and not give him tough love. Sometimes your kid needs to know that he was a dumbass when he did something stupid. It's not abuse, and it's a valid parenting style.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 07:03:56 PM »
I mean, people are so soft and sensitive these days that I've heard people say that spanking and even making your child do pushups is abuse. Are you kidding me? I got hit with a ruler hard as hell when I did something wrong. It didn't emotionally scar me, or whatever other crap people will try to convince you of. It instilled discipline in me.

When my kid is bad, I probably won't spank, but that kid will be doing wall sits and pushups. Sorry, little Johnny, the real world won't tell you that they understand why you were bad, and it's okay. You mess up, you deal with the consequences.

Nothing wrong with taking a negative (a bad action by a kid), and turning it into a positive (exercise).

Khaetra

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2017, 07:21:57 PM »
Although I hate to say it, I really hope you never have kids.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2017, 07:29:29 PM »
Although I hate to say it, I really hope you never have kids.
For what reason? I'll always be there to love and care for them, and I'd NEVER abandon ship on them. I honestly believe I'd make an excellent parent, and would only want the best for them.

Is it because I want my child to be pragmatic, so that they can be financially successful? Or because I want to instill certain important values in my children? Or because I believe exercise is a good punishment?

You can criticize my beliefs all you want, but I don't see why I'd make a bad father.

Sailor Sam

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2017, 07:30:05 PM »
MrMonkey, buddy, you're kind of coming across as an arrogant asshole. Maybe you intend it, maybe not. Either way, the quality of answers you're getting are gonna shift rapidly from 'trying to help' to 'smackdown.'

You've given us a lot of examples of how you're going to hold this potential kid to your definition of discipline and success. Care to give us some examples of overt love you intend to show them?




lhamo

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2017, 08:14:39 PM »
Let's project out 20 years from now.   You and your wife are FIREd and have a solid, but not ridiculously huge stash to fund your modest retirement.   You have enough in your kid's college fund to pay for 4 years of undergrad at a state school.   You have given your kid/your wife ample exposure to your philosophy about career/major choice.

Despite your position, kid applies to and is admitted to the film department at USC (let's assume this is still a top program).   Kid has already produced several short films, and has won a couple of regional awards and been nominated for (but has not won) national awards.    The USC offer comes with a partial scholarship, but that plus what you have in college savings is not enough to cover the full cost.   Your wife and kid are willing to work to cover the difference (no loans needed).

What do you think you would do in a situation like this?
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2017, 08:18:44 PM »
Let's project out 20 years from now.   You and your wife are FIREd and have a solid, but not ridiculously huge stash to fund your modest retirement.   You have enough in your kid's college fund to pay for 4 years of undergrad at a state school.   You have given your kid/your wife ample exposure to your philosophy about career/major choice.

Despite your position, kid applies to and is admitted to the film department at USC (let's assume this is still a top program).   Kid has already produced several short films, and has won a couple of regional awards and been nominated for (but has not won) national awards.    The USC offer comes with a partial scholarship, but that plus what you have in college savings is not enough to cover the full cost.   Your wife and kid are willing to work to cover the difference (no loans needed).

What do you think you would do in a situation like this?
First, I'd HIGHLY encourage him to pick a cheaper option. I may try to convince him to go down a different path (depending on just how good he and those regional awards are), but if he insisted, I can't FORCE him. I'd let him work for it, probably hook him up with a trade apprenticeship job to help pay for it. But I definitely would not go into massive debt if he wouldn't be able to make a decent career out of it.

Instead, as I stated a few posts ago, I'd highly encourage him to major in a STEM-related field that closely mirrors the much-worse-paying film major.

With that said, I hope that situation never presents itself. At the very least, I want to instill a sense of responsibility in my children from a very young age. I will try to teach them the Mustachian way to avoid expensive universities, and to pay out-of-pocket, as loans can really take a toll on your finances in the long-term.

Hell, if I'm still in WV at the time, WVU is only $7k/year, easily doable for a kid working even part-time. And that's without scholarships or anything.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 08:20:53 PM by MrMonkeyMoustache »

BlueHouse

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2017, 08:47:46 PM »
So you were raised in a family that instilled the values you want for your child, yet you did not make the choice you would want your child to make. Instead, you followed your passion and regretted it. So clearly, the way you were raised didn't get you the results you want. But you still seem to think that method is superior to whatever your gf has in mind.
It's sad that you seem to have so much contempt for your GF at this early stage. I think you need to grow a little before moving forward in any relationship. (Sorry.  Go reread your posts if you don't know why I say this)

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Vibrissae

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2017, 08:52:03 PM »
Or because I believe exercise is a good punishment?

Sure, make your kids hate the idea of exercise. That's a plus. :P

Seriously, you're coming across rather like a drill sergeant here, not a parent. Advice is great--my parents gave me lots of advice. And teaching kids responsibility? Awesome! But odds are pretty good your kid is going to make plenty of mistakes, just like you did, and all your advice and molding and discipline and whatever isn't going to do a damn thing to stop them. It might even make them run like hell in the opposite direction. That doesn't mean you have to fund their mistakes, of course, or shelter them and spoil them until they're a bunch of whiny, entitled brats. But don't break your heart--or theirs--trying to push the river.

Out of curiosity, do you spend a lot of time with kids? Or are you just picturing what you think kids are like?



MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2017, 08:52:29 PM »
So you were raised in a family that instilled the values you want for your child, yet you did not make the choice you would want your child to make. Instead, you followed your passion and regretted it. So clearly, the way you were raised didn't get you the results you want. But you still seem to think that method is superior to whatever your gf has in mind.
It's sad that you seem to have so much contempt for your GF at this early stage. I think you need to grow a little before moving forward in any relationship. (Sorry.  Go reread your posts if you don't know why I say this)

They didn't raise me the same way I want to raise my kids. I just said that I was raised with certain values. I never said I'll use the same method. Also, I don't have any contempt for her, we just disagree on one issue. Not sure how that implies contempt.

lhamo

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2017, 08:52:42 PM »
But that is part of the problem -- you are seeing things through some pretty narrow goggles.

A film degree from WVU is probably going to be next to worthless.   Maybe not.   But a film degree from USC -- one of the top programs in the world -- is going to provide exposure/access to all kinds of opportunities in the actual film industry in LA.   They also have programs in interactive media and games (which have gotten huge funding from Microsoft and other tech companies)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USC_School_of_Cinematic_Arts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USC_Interactive_Media_%26_Games_Division

I happen to know a USC film school graduate who is doing really interesting things with incorporating virtual reality into film.   Working in an artistic field does not necessarily mean you are divorced from tech.   

Anyway, it is your life -- do what you want.  I hope your wife and your future kids can deal with it.   
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MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2017, 08:56:35 PM »
Or because I believe exercise is a good punishment?

Sure, make your kids hate the idea of exercise. That's a plus. :P

Seriously, you're coming across rather like a drill sergeant here, not a parent. Advice is great--my parents gave me lots of advice. And teaching kids responsibility? Awesome! But odds are pretty good your kid is going to make plenty of mistakes, just like you did, and all your advice and molding and discipline and whatever isn't going to do a damn thing to stop them. It might even make them run like hell in the opposite direction. That doesn't mean you have to fund their mistakes, of course, or shelter them and spoil them until they're a bunch of whiny, entitled brats. But don't break your heart--or theirs--trying to push the river.

Out of curiosity, do you spend a lot of time with kids? Or are you just picturing what you think kids are like?
If done properly and without the drill sergeant mentality, kids wouldn't grow to hate exercise. That's always a falsehood pushed by people. Now, if you make your kid run 5 miles for doing something minor? Yeah, he'll hate you, if he doesn't pass out and die, or get rhabdo. But I've been training people, from newbies to serious lifters of all ages, since high school. It's one of very few areas where I consider myself to be competent (the others being programming and football coaching). I definitely would not overdo it. I know better than that. Because overdoing it IS abuse.

But doing it in moderation is not, and I'm confident it would not lead to a child that resents exercise, but actually WELCOMES it.

BlueHouse

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2017, 09:06:42 PM »
Oh, mr monkey, please try your theories out on cats first, because I believe they will show you how successful your plan will be. By the time you get to children, I am sure you will just love them for who they are and you'll be happy for them to be happy. Maybe you will want to be reminded of this conversation, so maybe you should print it out and stick it in a parenting book  to look back on in future years and see if your thoughts have changed. Good luck to you and your future monkeys.
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Sailor Sam

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2017, 09:08:50 PM »
So you were raised in a family that instilled the values you want for your child, yet you did not make the choice you would want your child to make. Instead, you followed your passion and regretted it. So clearly, the way you were raised didn't get you the results you want. But you still seem to think that method is superior to whatever your gf has in mind.
It's sad that you seem to have so much contempt for your GF at this early stage. I think you need to grow a little before moving forward in any relationship. (Sorry.  Go reread your posts if you don't know why I say this)

They didn't raise me the same way I want to raise my kids. I just said that I was raised with certain values. I never said I'll use the same method. Also, I don't have any contempt for her, we just disagree on one issue. Not sure how that implies contempt.

Annnnnd, were into pure smackdown.

We see contempt because we're able to read between the lines of what you're posting. Because of our fancy humanities degrees, and a smattering of age bringing wisdom. May your life bring you some, in the interest of your potential children.

Sheesh.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2017, 09:15:24 PM »
So you were raised in a family that instilled the values you want for your child, yet you did not make the choice you would want your child to make. Instead, you followed your passion and regretted it. So clearly, the way you were raised didn't get you the results you want. But you still seem to think that method is superior to whatever your gf has in mind.
It's sad that you seem to have so much contempt for your GF at this early stage. I think you need to grow a little before moving forward in any relationship. (Sorry.  Go reread your posts if you don't know why I say this)

They didn't raise me the same way I want to raise my kids. I just said that I was raised with certain values. I never said I'll use the same method. Also, I don't have any contempt for her, we just disagree on one issue. Not sure how that implies contempt.

Annnnnd, were into pure smackdown.

We see contempt because we're able to read between the lines of what you're posting. Because of our fancy humanities degrees, and a smattering of age bringing wisdom. May your life bring you some, in the interest of your potential children.

Sheesh.
Why pure smackdown? Because I'm defending myself from the allegation that I hold contempt for my GF? Couldn't be further from the truth. She completes me. Wouldn't want anyone else.

Hoglet121

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2017, 09:22:31 PM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.

letired

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2017, 09:23:33 PM »
Protip:  STEM != $$$$. I have done 2 (TWO!!!!!) STEM degrees, one bachelors and one masters and it wasn't till I was well over a decade into my career that I started making over $50k. I'm still not over my goal of 100k. If I get there sooner than 3 years, it'll be from a side gig or an exceptionally good job switch or three.

As for the rest, maybe appreciate that there are a lot of people who are a) (sometimes significantly) older than your (relatively) youthful 24 and b) have actually had and reared children trying to give you advice on how interacting with small developing humans works.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2017, 09:27:50 PM »
Wow - just wow.

First up - I have a totally useless, crappy, pointless, yet fun degree. I make 20% more than my engineer husband, who is also 13 years older than me, so cool it on what does and doesn't make money. Opportunities open up all over the place, and they don't always stem from having a STEM (haha!) degree.

Second - my parents had extremely strong opinions on how I was going to live my life. Sure, they didn't FORCE me to do anything (note the crappy degree) but their full-on expectations of me drove me nuts, and I was out of there as soon as possible (18 years old). I've since moved 13000 miles away and see them once every 5 years, if that. THAT is what attempting to turn your kids into something they aren't does.

So, seriously, good luck.
Again, never said people can't be successful with non-STEM degrees. Also never said STEM was guaranteed success. I'm just playing the numbers. And the number suggest you're much better off majoring in a STEM discipline.

That's not controversial, or crapping on other majors or careers. No need to get offended or anything. Just stating that people who major in STEM are, ON AVERAGE, far better off.

Sailor Sam

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Re: How To Convince GF To Be More Mustachian For Future Children?
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2017, 09:29:30 PM »
So you were raised in a family that instilled the values you want for your child, yet you did not make the choice you would want your child to make. Instead, you followed your passion and regretted it. So clearly, the way you were raised didn't get you the results you want. But you still seem to think that method is superior to whatever your gf has in mind.
It's sad that you seem to have so much contempt for your GF at this early stage. I think you need to grow a little before moving forward in any relationship. (Sorry.  Go reread your posts if you don't know why I say this)

They didn't raise me the same way I want to raise my kids. I just said that I was raised with certain values. I never said I'll use the same method. Also, I don't have any contempt for her, we just disagree on one issue. Not sure how that implies contempt.

Annnnnd, were into pure smackdown.

We see contempt because we're able to read between the lines of what you're posting. Because of our fancy humanities degrees, and a smattering of age bringing wisdom. May your life bring you some, in the interest of your potential children.

Sheesh.
Why pure smackdown? Because I'm defending myself from the allegation that I hold contempt for my GF? Couldn't be further from the truth. She completes me. Wouldn't want anyone else.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that's true. The problem is the tone you're using in your writeups isn't showing us, you're readers, the loving and respectful part of your relationship. All were getting is that your GF is artistic, but paradoxically you'd do any thing in your power to prevent your GF from encouraging those same traits in her own children. Can you see why we're reading contempt into your relationship?

I mean, dude, you're getting just a metric tonne of negative feedback. I admire you for taking it pretty well, but you're certainly not listening to those with experience, either. I've got some stories to tell about indoctrination and what it does to the brain, but your previous responses make me think you'd just brush me off. So, what do you want from us? You trolling?