The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: jybaatl35 on November 30, 2013, 11:13:23 AM
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How do you explain your mustachian lifestyle to others?
At work, it seems people just don't understand me, as I am sometimes questioned on why I am not doing what everyone else is doing. For example, all my coworkers go driving around and buying themselves lunch everyday, while I eat my packed lunch at my desk. I get looks of sympathy and comments like "don't you ever want to get out for lunch?"
Another example happened this week was my coworkers called me scrooge and the "Christmas miser" because I don't waste my money on Christmas decorations and my husband and I don't buy each other gifts. It's not Christmas that I have a problem with - it's spending unnecessarily!!
I don't feel I can give them my true reasons because it would just sound like I am lecturing them, and the typical consumer does not want to hear a dissertation on the power of compounding.
Just curious if others have a great way of explaining themselves without sounding rude?
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Someone in another thread (please identify yourself as I cannot remember whom to credit!) suggested answering with positives like "I bring my lunch because I love cooking so much!" This way, it's explained as a positive for you, not something that brings their choices into question.
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^ yeah that's pretty much it. People don't like judgemental people. If you feel like you're being judgey you probably are.
I bring my lunch because I like to cook
I don't do huge holiday stuff because I'd rather spend that energy on family time
I ride bikes because it's fun and I like being outside
If I don't want to spend money on something, it's not because I don't want to spend money, it's because I'm saving for something (preferably something people can relate to, like a house or whatever)
It helps to project confidence about your choices and own them with a little humor instead of getting upset, e.g. "you're such a Scrooge" "haha I guess I am!"
Also stop giving a fuck what other people think. This will naturally turn away people who disagree with the way you live your life and bring in people who agree with the way you live your life. The second part takes a little longer though, so people tend to get too discouraged to carry on before they get there.
ETA: If you do it right, you should never feel like you're "defending" yourself from anybody. That's in relation to both how you explain your choices and how you receive criticism of those choices.
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That's good advice, Russ. Maybe using the word "defend" wasn't the right choice here. I don't actually care what they think about me, but it starts to get ridiculous when coworkers start passing on gossip like "can you BELIEVE Sally doesn't buy Christmas gifts?" Then people get the wrong idea about me through the grapevine.
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I struggle with this at times. Mostly, my co-workers either think that I am odd (in a harmless kind of way) or super-human (as in, "You actually bike up that hill every day??!!??"). I have begun to share some of my financial goals with a co-worker, and I excitedly tell her when I find money (which I seem to often do, as I get around town either on a bike or on foot). She responded by hiding a few pennies in my (messy) office, so that I can be thrilled later when I find them. Hmmm...not quite sure what to make of that. But that's OK--for me, those "found" pennies go right in the "Other Income" column in my spreadsheet!!
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The positive spin is a good idea. Some of it is also the development of a thick skin. You are doing something outside of the US mainstream, so get used to criticism.
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My secret weapon is "convenience". Everyone understands that.
I tell people that eating out is inconvenient and a headache for vegans, and it's easier to just bring my own food for lunches.
I don't have a car and walk and bike everywhere because it's the fastest and most convenient way to get around(I live in the downtown core of a major city).
I don't buy clothes because it's a huge inconvenience and headache trying to find stuff I like, so I just sew my own stuff that fits me perfectly and is exactly what I want(and is a small fraction of the price).
Also, I travel a lot, so people just assume I'm saving for my next trip(or maybe paying off my last one) - and I don't correct them. International travel makes a VERY good excuse, because it's something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do, so they're not aware of the exact costs and how cheap it can be. I actually put over triple my travel budget into retirement any given year.
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I've had a few discussions with an old boss who I greatly admire. He retired from the Navy and then started work as a Government Service employee. He has paid for 3 of 4 kids college (one is on a ROTC scholarship) and is paying for his daughter to work on her MBA now.
He and his wife both work and have no plans to retire anytime soon. When I started my blog talking about retiring early, he told me I need to think about quality of life and keep raking in the big bucks after I retire from the Navy.
My response was that I was beginning to define quality of life as more time, not more money. Not sure I'm convincing anyone, but you never know.
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You don't have anything to explain; they do. They already know this which is why they are staging a proactive offensive defense by acting like they feel sorry for you. It's their issues, not yours.
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I just tell 'em it's because I'm cheap.
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I have recently been biking to the ice rink (and schlepping my hockey gear on my trailer). Last week, one of my teammates asked me, while in the locker room prepping for a game, if I had biked to the rink. My response was, "Did you drive?!?!?! (Look of horror on my face.) Don't you know that EVERYONE bikes to the rink now???"
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My secret weapon is: I don't give a crap what other people think.
I honestly don't know how the people here who have "high emotional iq," or who seem very upset when others disapprove of their lifestyle, stay mustachian. I couldn't if I was constantly swayed by consumerism, commercials telling me how to make other people like me and fit in, etc.
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i mostly keep my mouth shut, especially at the office. Then again, I don't bike to work so there is nothing really conspicuous about my lifestyle that people may ask about.
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I guess I've just been lucky. Maybe its because of living in the SF Bay Area of CA. Maybe its because when you are different enough, no one has any expectation of conformity. I really don't know why.
No one's really ever questioned it.
I guess I am "that guy" among the Coast Guard Reserves, but no one asks "why?".
Friends, family, neighbors, just accept me as me.
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I don't defend myself, nor do I go on the offensive to "convert" others. I just live my life the way I want and lead by example. I've found that if I'm outwardly happy, relaxed, and friendly to others, people are more likely to ask for advice than criticize my choices.
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Here's something for you to look forward to. Once you get to FI (or at least FU status) you can tell people in your office you don't have to give a rat's ass because you have been bagging your lunch and saving for the last x number of years as opposed to throwing money out the window. Just the other day my boss told me that a meeting we had coming up with our new VP was a chance for me to impress her. I just laughed and said those days are way behind me, good luck worrying about that... lol. It was a lot of fun being able to say that and come to think of it the last couple years have been some of the most fun years of my career thanks in part to bagging my lunch! :)
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How do you explain your mustachian lifestyle to others?
At work, it seems people just don't understand me, as I am sometimes questioned on why I am not doing what everyone else is doing. For example, all my coworkers go driving around and buying themselves lunch everyday, while I eat my packed lunch at my desk. I get looks of sympathy and comments like "don't you ever want to get out for lunch?"
Another example happened this week was my coworkers called me scrooge and the "Christmas miser" because I don't waste my money on Christmas decorations and my husband and I don't buy each other gifts. It's not Christmas that I have a problem with - it's spending unnecessarily!!
I don't feel I can give them my true reasons because it would just sound like I am lecturing them, and the typical consumer does not want to hear a dissertation on the power of compounding.
Just curious if others have a great way of explaining themselves without sounding rude?
I'm very familiar with the lunch question, have heard it at my last two jobs, and kinda started a "packing your lunch trend" at both.
Reasons I don't go out:
1. I used to be fat (truthfully, I now have 30 lbs of baby weight to lose) and the food out isn't very healthy and doesn't taste very good.
2. It's much cheaper to pack a lunch. I calculated once that by packing my lunch and my husband's lunch every day (or almost, he does eat out 2x a month), I save $16,500 every five years. Which, by the way, is enough to buy a new, compact car with cash.
Shortly after I started my new job 5 years ago, my husband was in an accident and our car was totaled and we bought the Civic for cash, so it was very easy to explain to people that bringing my lunch allowed me to do that.
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I have recently been biking to the ice rink (and schlepping my hockey gear on my trailer). Last week, one of my teammates asked me, while in the locker room prepping for a game, if I had biked to the rink. My response was, "Did you drive?!?!?! (Look of horror on my face.) Don't you know that EVERYONE bikes to the rink now???"
We live one block down the hill from a large park with soccer fields, softball fields, hiking trails, etc. My husband and I like to walk there.
It's at the end of a dead end street, so there's a little opening in the fence. But if you want to drive there, you have to drive AROUND the hill, the entrance is on the opposite end of the park.
One day we were walking out of our house and our neighbor (house behind us, we share a driveway) was heading off by car to softball and said "have a good walk!"
We were already at the park when he got there. He said "how did you get here so fast?"
Uh...you know you can walk there, right? He had no idea he was so close...
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Here's something for you to look forward to. Once you get to FI (or at least FU status) you can tell people in your office you don't have to give a rat's ass because you have been bagging your lunch and saving for the last x number of years as opposed to throwing money out the window. Just the other day my boss told me that a meeting we had coming up with our new VP was a chance for me to impress her. I just laughed and said those days are way behind me, good luck worrying about that... lol. It was a lot of fun being able to say that and come to think of it the last couple years have been some of the most fun years of my career thanks in part to bagging my lunch! :)
I had a lunch with a former coworker yesterday. She got laid off in August along with 20% of our work force, and it was really hard on her. Generally we've had really bad morale for the last year, and I've thought of quitting. She urged me to not quit without a job waiting. I didn't really know how to explain that I had enough FU money that it doesn't matter. So I didn't.
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I just tell 'em it's because I'm cheap.
I do the same thing and I don't give a damn about what people think.
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I used to say it was because I was a student (which was true). Now I say that I'm trying to save as much as possible (also true) :)
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My secret weapon is "convenience". Everyone understands that.
I tell people that eating out is inconvenient and a headache for vegans, and it's easier to just bring my own food for lunches.
I don't have a car and walk and bike everywhere because it's the fastest and most convenient way to get around(I live in the downtown core of a major city).
I don't buy clothes because it's a huge inconvenience and headache trying to find stuff I like, so I just sew my own stuff that fits me perfectly and is exactly what I want(and is a small fraction of the price).
Also, I travel a lot, so people just assume I'm saving for my next trip(or maybe paying off my last one) - and I don't correct them. International travel makes a VERY good excuse, because it's something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do, so they're not aware of the exact costs and how cheap it can be. I actually put over triple my travel budget into retirement any given year.
Zikoris: Do you have any tips on traveling internationally cheaply? I've been heavily focused on saving, but I don't want to miss travel opportunities while I'm young. Not that older people can't travel, I just don't have many responsibilities outside of work.
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I really don't give a damn, but I tend to say "I spend my money on travel" or use the busy day excuse when packing my lunch. I can't help but not bust up laughing when they ask me about replacing my truck when it's in the shop.
They just don't get that a rental car and a repair might equal a month and a half of their car payment, and it happens to me less than once a year.
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This is quickly becoming a new problem for us too. We recent cut cable, our gym membership and stopped eating out. This had a few friends and family members ask if we were "doing okay" money wise. My husbands parents know that we are cutting costs to both lessen our monthly expenses in favor of a long term goal, and also to absorb the blow of recent pay cuts. They are mustachians without knowing it. Other family assumes we are going broke I think
I'm curious on what to say to friends who do place a BIG emphasis on gifts and holiday spending? I recently had a tense conversation with a friend who basically implied that we are hurting ourselves by not doing gift exchanges, and that Christmas is about the wonderful gifts and " making memories" rather than trying to be no-fun penny pinchers. I kinda jabbed back that it was more important to us to remain debt free than give gifts (they have 64k in consumer/student debt). Most of our friends feel bad for us and our children that we don't go hog wild at Christmas. We bake, decorate a tree, look at Christmas lights, listen to music, and the kids do get some gifts on Christmas and stocking with practical stuffers in it. I don't think our kids are suffering terribly. Its hard to not feel defensive though....
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I'm curious on what to say to friends who do place a BIG emphasis on gifts and holiday spending? I recently had a tense conversation with a friend who basically implied that we are hurting ourselves by not doing gift exchanges, and that Christmas is about the wonderful gifts and " making memories" rather than trying to be no-fun penny pinchers. I kinda jabbed back that it was more important to us to remain debt free than give gifts (they have 64k in consumer/student debt). Most of our friends feel bad for us and our children that we don't go hog wild at Christmas. We bake, decorate a tree, look at Christmas lights, listen to music, and the kids do get some gifts on Christmas and stocking with practical stuffers in it. I don't think our kids are suffering terribly. Its hard to not feel defensive though....
Sometimes you just have to get new friends
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My parents are old-school frugal types so no problems there. I think my mom is relieved that I have come back to the family fold. My closest friends are retired and semi-retired and are pretty non-spendy too. If anyone at work says anything about bringing my lunch, I just say that not bringing my lunch has added up over time and leave it at that.
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Wow! Glad I am not the only one! I think I mostly do what has been recommended - just try to give a brief answer and leave it at that. It's just difficult to swallow when people give you a look that says "I feel sorry for you" or "You're weird."
But as someone commented...I guess they will understand when my packed lunches and lack of commercial holiday gift buying means I get to retire decades before they do!
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I have recently been biking to the ice rink (and schlepping my hockey gear on my trailer). Last week, one of my teammates asked me, while in the locker room prepping for a game, if I had biked to the rink. My response was, "Did you drive?!?!?! (Look of horror on my face.) Don't you know that EVERYONE bikes to the rink now???"
Rod Brind'Amour was famous for hopping on the bike and heading to the weight room after EVERY game during the NHL season (even at 39, putting the 20 year old players to shame.) So there you go. . . just emulating Rod.
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Zikoris: Do you have any tips on traveling internationally cheaply? I've been heavily focused on saving, but I don't want to miss travel opportunities while I'm young. Not that older people can't travel, I just don't have many responsibilities outside of work.
I'm not Zikoris but I was just reading today about international travel hacks on a site called Nerd Fitness. Someone else here on the forum mentioned it to some other person on the forum (sorry, I don't remember who on either side!). Anyway, he had a lot of useful information. http://www.nerdfitness.com/search/ Type in travel and you'll get lots of articles. Hope that helps!
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I have recently been biking to the ice rink (and schlepping my hockey gear on my trailer). Last week, one of my teammates asked me, while in the locker room prepping for a game, if I had biked to the rink. My response was, "Did you drive?!?!?! (Look of horror on my face.) Don't you know that EVERYONE bikes to the rink now???"
Rod Brind'Amour was famous for hopping on the bike and heading to the weight room after EVERY game during the NHL season (even at 39, putting the 20 year old players to shame.) So there you go. . . just emulating Rod.
Rod would be a hall a famer if he didn't have the touch of stone hands around the goal...
I enjoyed watching him in Carolina, guy was a fitness nut
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My secret weapon is "convenience". Everyone understands that.
I tell people that eating out is inconvenient and a headache for vegans, and it's easier to just bring my own food for lunches.
I don't have a car and walk and bike everywhere because it's the fastest and most convenient way to get around(I live in the downtown core of a major city).
I don't buy clothes because it's a huge inconvenience and headache trying to find stuff I like, so I just sew my own stuff that fits me perfectly and is exactly what I want(and is a small fraction of the price).
Also, I travel a lot, so people just assume I'm saving for my next trip(or maybe paying off my last one) - and I don't correct them. International travel makes a VERY good excuse, because it's something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do, so they're not aware of the exact costs and how cheap it can be. I actually put over triple my travel budget into retirement any given year.
Zikoris: Do you have any tips on traveling internationally cheaply? I've been heavily focused on saving, but I don't want to miss travel opportunities while I'm young. Not that older people can't travel, I just don't have many responsibilities outside of work.
This guy is great:
http://www.madfientist.com/travel-hacking-and-slow-travel/
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^Thank you for posting that! I was trying to figure out how to explore the world by living in different places after FIRE, but whenever I searched "live in another country after retirement" all I would get is lists of countries where people low on cash can buy a retirement home and stretch a dollar (Colombia, Nicaragua, and Vietnam anyone?) Now I know that "slow travel" is the correct term for what I really want to do.
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Like this thread, thank you. We are pretty quiet about it. It's pretty much been a "secret" between my husband and I. I don't want to alienate anyone else. I understand this way of life is not for everyone.
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I wouldn't even say we're REALLY frugal with our travel budget - we budget $3500/year for travel each, split over two major trips each year, which seems like quite a bit to me. That said, the stuff we do to keep costs down on the road is actually the same stuff we do to keep costs down at home...
1. We don't drink, either at home or travelling - that's a big one for a lot of people
2. We research food options before we go, so we don't end up starving and going to tourist-premium types of places in desperation. We get a map of the city(s) we'll be in beforehand and mark out the vegetarian restaurants, so during our wandering whenever we get hungry we can just head for the nearest place on the map. This results in much higher quality food for way cheaper, especially in Europe. When practical, we try to secure accommodation with cooking facilities and use grocery stores. Even when we don't have cooking facilities, we try to have a few meals as picnics with cheap stuff from a local grocery store - we had a very nice picnic once in a tiny medieval village in rural France that was a baguette, avocado, apple juice, crisps, and some fruit, for maybe 3 Euros.
3. We plan it so our accommodation is near transit, in a walkable part of town, near the train station, or whatever so we don't need to take taxis. We use public transportation extensively.
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A lot of people I work with bring their own lunches and bike to work for fitness reasons, quite a few bike nuts too. Cite whatever good attribute the thing you're doing in question has that you can think of in the moment. I find this is actually a good way to convince myself to do more frugal things as well!
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This is an interesting thread!
I tend to keep fairly quiet at work (only one other co-worker is aware I am Mustachian, and we have sworn each other to secrecy). This is because I think my career would be impacted now if it was known that I was not gunning for a top management job, but in fact am gunning for retirement.
However, I also try to put a good spin on things when we are asked about why we cut cable, which is something I usually share because I know nothing about all the TV shows. Like others, I will explain that I enjoy reading, hiking, and other non-TV hobbies more, so I cut cable and never looked back.
I find that it is hard to find Mustachians in real life, which is why I enjoy this forum and others so much.
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My secret weapon is "convenience". Everyone understands that.
I tell people that eating out is inconvenient and a headache for vegans, and it's easier to just bring my own food for lunches.
I don't have a car and walk and bike everywhere because it's the fastest and most convenient way to get around(I live in the downtown core of a major city).
I don't buy clothes because it's a huge inconvenience and headache trying to find stuff I like, so I just sew my own stuff that fits me perfectly and is exactly what I want(and is a small fraction of the price).
Also, I travel a lot, so people just assume I'm saving for my next trip(or maybe paying off my last one) - and I don't correct them. International travel makes a VERY good excuse, because it's something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do, so they're not aware of the exact costs and how cheap it can be. I actually put over triple my travel budget into retirement any given year.
Ahhh this is great! I'm going to start using this same explanation.
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I find that it is hard to find Mustachians in real life, which is why I enjoy this forum and others so much.
+1. I do struggle at times with the loneliness of the mustachian lifestyle. Feels like I'm always going against the grain. Then when you throw in the fact that I am vegetarian, and atheist, I am downright odd! There are times it's tough, like at 5pm on a dark, cold, perhaps snowy day, when I brave the elements on my bike or on foot for my commute home and am passed by someone driving in their nice warm car!! Now that I have found this MMM community, though, I inwardly smile knowing that my forum friends would think commuting by bike or on foot in those conditions in seriously badass!!
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^ yeah that's pretty much it. People don't like judgemental people. If you feel like you're being judgey you probably are.
I think this line carries a great deal of truth. It doesn't even matter whether you are actually passing judgement on your co-workers' choices -- though we all see some decisions so idiotic that it's impossible not to form an opinion -- the point is that they think you're being judgemental about their choices. This is one of those cases when perception is reality.
Why would they feel this way? Simple: They know they should be saving for the future, they know they should be brown-bagging their lunches, they know they can't afford a vacation in the Caribbean -- and seeing you make "the right choices" is a reminder of their shortcomings. Just like the overweight person who sits down to a double bacon cheeseburger and fries knows he's making a bad choice, people who aren't saving know they should be more disciplined. Doesn't matter whether you personally were thinking, "What an idiot" or simply pondering how tonight's episode of Breaking Bad will turn out. A whole lot of people will fill in the blanks for you.
Should this matter to you? Of course not. You make your choices, your friends and co-workers make their own. You should always be pleasant to other people, but you're out of high school, so don't get too caught up in, "What do they think of me?" I know, this is sometimes easier said than done.
We live one block down the hill from a large park with soccer fields, softball fields, hiking trails, etc. My husband and I like to walk there.
It's at the end of a dead end street, so there's a little opening in the fence. But if you want to drive there, you have to drive AROUND the hill, the entrance is on the opposite end of the park.
One day we were walking out of our house and our neighbor (house behind us, we share a driveway) was heading off by car to softball and said "have a good walk!"
We were already at the park when he got there. He said "how did you get here so fast?"
Uh...you know you can walk there, right? He had no idea he was so close...
Okay, I could've made this mistake easily. My sense of direction is horrible, and if the roads were long and twisty-turny, I might not have recognized that it was such a short distance "as the crow flies".
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I'm curious on what to say to friends who do place a BIG emphasis on gifts and holiday spending? I recently had a tense conversation with a friend who basically implied that we are hurting ourselves by not doing gift exchanges, and that Christmas is about the wonderful gifts and " making memories" rather than trying to be no-fun penny pinchers. I kinda jabbed back that it was more important to us to remain debt free than give gifts (they have 64k in consumer/student debt). Most of our friends feel bad for us and our children that we don't go hog wild at Christmas. We bake, decorate a tree, look at Christmas lights, listen to music, and the kids do get some gifts on Christmas and stocking with practical stuffers in it. I don't think our kids are suffering terribly. Its hard to not feel defensive though....
Wow, this is so sad. Answer a question with a question...
"You don't think that baking cookies, decorating our tree, going for walks to look at the holiday lights, singing Christmas carols, and spending time with our children makes the holiday special enough?"
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No need to defend (or am I taking that particular word in it's negative connotation),or to explain your choices unless they ask you to explain.
I think it's pretty rude that anyone would remark about another one's choice of lifestyle in the first place. That anyone would give a 'put down' or negative comment only shows their own insecurity and perhaps jealousy? So . . . do what you feel is right for you, no reason for excuses.
If they're only co-workers I'm thinking . . . that's only temporary anyway. If they're 'friends' . . . who needs that sort of a 'friend"?
Be confident that what you're doing is right for you and/or your family and screw the rest of 'em.
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Most people think my lifestyle is awesome (but then I'm semi-retired and work from "home").
When I was working in an office I was pretty eccentric anyway (eating "dinner" food at breakfast time, not wearing shoes, doing weird stuff for charity) so people didn't really care about whether I brought lunch or bought new shirts as regularly as they did. I also very obviously didn't give a **** what they thought about me so any petty bullies pretty quickly gave up (it also helps that I have a quicker and nastier wit than almost anyone).
My close colleagues / direct reports actually used to joke about how I must be super rich because I never spent money on anything.
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(it also helps that I have a quicker and nastier wit than almost anyone).
I'm not nearly as incisive as I used to be, but this is still such a useful thing to have.
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This works in all situations:
Adopt a slightly amused face and say, "Why would you think it's okay to criticize the way we celebrate Christmas?"
Or, a more general phrase: "Why would you think it's okay to say that to someone?"
NO reasonable answer exists.
Then change the subject fast.
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Maybe one part of the problem is discussing not buying gifts. Why tell them? If they ask, you can say you aren't 100% sure or you are hubby are saving up for something special (no need to elaborate). Turn the conversation back to them. I find people are usually only to happy to talk about themselves so ask them questions to get the focus off of your choices.
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It's all in how you spin it. When they ask why you don't go out, say something about the quality (or lack thereof) of the available restaurants. And gift giving might be something you do throughout the year, rather than at the end of it.
People sometimes ask me why I own and drive old vehicles (newest is 25 years old). I explain I prefer to be able to fix them when they need it, and the challenge of the diagnosis and the fix are things I enjoy doing with my time. Some people give me that "you're crazy" look and some people look on in awe.
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I do struggle at times with the loneliness of the mustachian lifestyle. Feels like I'm always going against the grain. Then when you throw in the fact that I am vegetarian, and atheist, I am downright odd!
Holy shit, after all these years, I found my twin;)
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Did I mention I am single? And female? ;-) In any case, glad to know we are twins!!
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I'm pretty honest. I tell them that I want to retire early and want to help the environment. Sometimes people will be intrigued and I will recommend either this blog or "Your Money or Your Life". Other people just think I have a silly idea which makes me want to prove them wrong someday.
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Many of the people in my life are very frugal. My close friends are more careful with money than I am! My parents are soooo frugal.
So I can't always relate to this. But I do try and keep a lot of my situation secret from those that might not understand.
(Example: I'm not telling anyone how little I plan on spending in getting married, with the exception of a few close friends that just GET IT)
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I don't set out to specifically either explain or defend. I basically deflect comments, am economical with the truth, make jokes or confuse people regarding my status to put them off balance.
I find as a physician, single mum, working part-time, people have a hard time pegging my income so this I think throws them a bit. Also no-one knows how much child support my ex is providing ( not much!) and I don't elaborate. As I say, a bit of vagueness about all this means people can't make assumptions/judgement and therefore generally don't ask pointed questions or make pointed comments for fear of offending.
I regard myself as semi-retired, but I don't tell people this at work, in case it affects my work status in some way. Up until now I have just traded on the mother working part-time line, want to spend time with the kids: and thats true. Kids are getting older, so this is getting a bit lame so I might get called on this sometime soon.
Otherwise I just deflect comments with things like:
Bringing own lunch: can't stand the cafeteria food, too busy to go out to get lunch, need to watch my weight ( all true)
Not buying coffees: now I'm getting older it keeps me awake at night (true)
Parking in the street: the walk up the hill to work gives me some exercise (True, I'm overweight)
No i-phone: I can't stand gadgets, I'm a technophobe (Not exactly true, but I'm old enough to get away with this one)
Recently I was at an upmarket function, and my son brought up the issue of our "new" (secondhand) Prius. One of the flashy dudes said "so the Prius is the hire car right?" One of my friends answered "Nope the Prius is the new car". I just laughed and said "Yup, I've always wanted a Prius". This caused a mild ripple of discomfort/embarrassment/tension in the group, which I just enjoyed since it made the flashy dude look like a condescending jerk.
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I dislike the commercialism aspect of Christmas. I prefer to simply spend the holiday with family -- time with family is the only present I will ever need! :)
And thanks to everyone who mentioned the positive spin to those odd questions! I am definitely going to use that!
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Almost everyone I know takes it very well. Honestly, most of them are envious (but apparently not envious enough to try it...ahem). And when people don't get it, well, I have a little bit of a different problem. I don't really care what they think about me, but I care about them, as in caring about their future. It makes me sad when people I care about are wallowing in debt, clutter, stress and perpetually delaying retirement.
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I have a spendy co-worker friend who knows about my early retirement plan. Her opinion is, "well, good luck to you, but I could NEVER manage that." She's always talking about the new shoes/dress/whatever that she bought. I don't mind talking about shopping, because she has good taste. But I save the things I like to pinterest, and maybe I spend a little money once in a while. She saves the things she likes directly to her closet. :)
My neighborhood friends, however, are cheap nerds who love to DIY stuff. Some of them work at startups, some of them are in grad school, some have corporate jobs, but everyone has internalized that you don't impress people by spending money, you impress people by creating cool things or fun activities. (You should see us at Halloween.) So we make presents, or throw dinner parties, or do other creative stuff. It's not free to make amazing crafts and throw parties, but it's cheaper (and more fun) than buying costumes and going out.
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I think a lot of it has to do with how you carry yourself and the confidence you have. I think people treat you how you allow them to treat you.
Comments I get:
Lunch - You're so good, you bring your lunch everyday! I wish I was that organizedﾅ.OR I wish my leftovers looked as good as yours, etc.
Weddings - As women are talking about their lavish weddings (or their offspring). When it gets to me I say, "Justice of the Peace, 12 bucks, been married 23 years. I like a drama-free life." They can't argue with 20+ years of marriage.
Cars - I drive a 12 year old Ford Focus (my colleagues all have new luxury brands). "Wow, your car is so clean" - "Yeah, I take care of it." I have never had anyone tell me I should upgrade.
Cable - My coworkers are talking endlessly about all the shows they watch. Me: "You guys are crazy, how much time do you spend watching TV for Pete's sakeﾅ". If anyone says, "what, you don't watch TV?", I'll say something like "no, I have a life, don't need to watch other people having one" - always said in a chiding friendly way.
Gift Giving - I don't say much here unless directly asked. I typically say, "no not really, anything my hubby and I need we just pick up throughout the year. We prefer to go low-key for the holidays, less stressful that way. Besides I'm a lousy gift picker-outer"
Kids - We don't have any (I'm in my 40s). I have never had a co-worker ask me WHY I don't have kids. When exchanging first-meeting pleasantries and people ask about kids, I usually say something like, "No, we preferred to go the dog route instead" - said with a smile.
The key is to not make your response defensive, more just matter of fact. Maybe all my co-workers and family are just tactful, but I have never had anyone question or comment on my lifestyle. ﾅ.or maybe I give off the air of a real bitch and they're afraid of me :) I like to think that it is just an air of confidence.
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Full honesty seems to have worked in my office: "Well if I spend lots less, I can save/invest lots more and maybe retire long before I am 65. As great as this company is to work for, being retired sounds better."
But also I work almost entirely with engineers, and only a few people go out for lunch and then only once or twice a week.
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I'm glad someone mentioned just being honest. If you are careful to present it as YOUR choice, that you're not judgmental of anyone else's choices, you might be surprised to find other people are interested in it.
Brown bag lunch: "Well, we realized we were spending $400 a month eating out. Packing my own lunch earns us $4800 a year, invested over 10 years is...(I forget the math)."
I don't know what kind of people you work with, but in my world, that would be enough to get anyone's immediate interest. I've never met anyone who questioned the desire to save money or to earn more money, except for some hippie friends who would like to overthrow capitalism. (I love my hippie friends and their motivations are noble, even if I don't agree with their conclusions.)
As far as explaining the goal of financial independence, in the work place, it's important to emphasize that you're making yourself recession-proof. You like your job at the moment, you don't have any fears for your job security, but you never know what life will bring, and so you want to be financially independent. Put something like that, and it is non-threatening and non-judgmental.
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Yes and when being honest I have seen a few light-bulbs turn on in the face of coworkers. I like the recession-proofing line too.
Lots of people take it as a given that they will work till 65 and it never occurred to them that there are alternatives. I know it did not really occur to me till this year.
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I honestly don't know how the people here who have "high emotional iq," or who seem very upset when others disapprove of their lifestyle, stay mustachian. I couldn't if I was constantly swayed by consumerism, commercials telling me how to make other people like me and fit in, etc.
That might explain the significant proportion of engineers/STEM types around here. For the most part, careers like that tend to attract people who don't care too much about social convention.
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I honestly don't know how the people here who have "high emotional iq," or who seem very upset when others disapprove of their lifestyle, stay mustachian. I couldn't if I was constantly swayed by consumerism, commercials telling me how to make other people like me and fit in, etc.
I don't know the exact official definition of the term, but someone who gets very upset when others disapprove of them seems to me by default to not have a high emotional IQ. It doesn't mean "highly emotional"!
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I use a combination of the bolded areas in the following excerpts:
When I was working in an office I was pretty eccentric anyway (eating "dinner" food at breakfast time, not wearing shoes, doing weird stuff for charity) so people didn't really care about whether I brought lunch or bought new shirts as regularly as they did. I also very obviously didn't give a **** what they thought about me so any petty bullies pretty quickly gave up (it also helps that I have a quicker and nastier wit than almost anyone).
My close colleagues / direct reports actually used to joke about how I must be super rich because I never spent money on anything.
and this:
I'm glad someone mentioned just being honest. If you are careful to present it as YOUR choice, that you're not judgmental of anyone else's choices, you might be surprised to find other people are interested in it.
Brown bag lunch: "Well, we realized we were spending $400 a month eating out. Packing my own lunch earns us $4800 a year, invested over 10 years is...(I forget the math)."
I don't know what kind of people you work with, but in my world, that would be enough to get anyone's immediate interest. I've never met anyone who questioned the desire to save money or to earn more money, except for some hippie friends who would like to overthrow capitalism. (I love my hippie friends and their motivations are noble, even if I don't agree with their conclusions.)
Basically a combination of objectivity, trenchancy and thick skin...and yes...the delivery is important. Am I chiding? Am I serious? I like to make this ambiguous...people tend to stop asking questions...unless they are interested...
What do people think of this approach? I'm not too sure for the people who don't enquire further (and naturally I don't care). Generally the people that enquire further are interested (in whatever the topic happens to be).
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I honestly don't know how the people here who have "high emotional iq," or who seem very upset when others disapprove of their lifestyle, stay mustachian. I couldn't if I was constantly swayed by consumerism, commercials telling me how to make other people like me and fit in, etc.
I don't know the exact official definition of the term, but someone who gets very upset when others disapprove of them seems to me by default to not have a high emotional IQ. It doesn't mean "highly emotional"!
Fair enough- I was going based on some pop-psych magazine article I probably read on a plane 5 years ago. Wikipedia says there are three competing models so I don't even want to get into it. These types of people who really internalize the emotions of others really do exist however, whatever you call them, as evidenced by a lot of worried threads in these forums.
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Like others, I just tell people that I'm cheap. I'm an accountant, so they kind of go together and no one really questions it after that.
I have begun to share some of my financial goals with a co-worker, and I excitedly tell her when I find money (which I seem to often do, as I get around town either on a bike or on foot). She responded by hiding a few pennies in my (messy) office, so that I can be thrilled later when I find them. Hmmm...not quite sure what to make of that. But that's OK--for me, those "found" pennies go right in the "Other Income" column in my spreadsheet!!
Hahhahaha. That's funny! Sounds like a great person to work with.
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I say that I am saving for a house (true - but I am already way beyond the 5% most first home buyers would put down) and a holiday (true - but my holidays are reasonably frugal affairs, so it's not like I need to save that much for them. My last EuroTrip was $3,200 including flights from Australia.) If people ask more questions I will expand on savings techniques... I feel like in our society we congratulate spendy purchases but not savings. So if someone says "I'm saving for a trip too" I'll try and swap some hints with them :)
I also defend aspects of my lifestyle as fun (e.g. cooking, riding bikes) which is generally true.
And other aspects through being lazy - e.g. the car is reliable, I can't be bothered taking a out a bunch of cars on test drives etc if this one is still reliable.
Housesharing - I would be lonely if I had to live alone. (True).
I do spend money on networking and looking socially acceptable for the office though. After all, I'm there 5 days a week, I might as well enjoy it. (I'm targeting semi-Fi in 11 years... I want to enjoy the next 11 years ideally in this current role. I work with great people! If I hated my job and was targeting FI ASAP this might be different.)
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Someone in another thread (please identify yourself as I cannot remember whom to credit!) suggested answering with positives like "I bring my lunch because I love cooking so much!" This way, it's explained as a positive for you, not something that brings their choices into question.
That was me! Yes I use positive statements, like, "I just love saving money!" "I'm just so weird, I love my packed lunch", etc. Instead of the potentially more truthful, "I don't want to spend $10 a day on food because that's fucking insane and unproductive and dumb."
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I say that I am saving for a house (true - but I am already way beyond the 5% most first home buyers would put down)
People put down 5% on a house???! I thought 20% was the normally accepted standard....if there is such a thing.
I'm right there with you, I thought 20% was totally standard until I talked to a very un-mustachian co-worker who said she wanted to buy a place and had 5% down. I asked and she said most people she knew only put down 5%. I don't understand why you would save so little for a down payment, but there you go.
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I say that I am saving for a house (true - but I am already way beyond the 5% most first home buyers would put down)
People put down 5% on a house???! I thought 20% was the normally accepted standard....if there is such a thing.
I'm right there with you, I thought 20% was totally standard until I talked to a very un-mustachian co-worker who said she wanted to buy a place and had 5% down. I asked and she said most people she knew only put down 5%. I don't understand why you would save so little for a down payment, but there you go.
Should I admit we put 5% down on our house? (Sheepish grin) Our mortgage plus taxes and insurance is $400 (30% less) a month less than our neighbors pay in rent for the EXACT same house (all the houses on our little street are identical beyond minor variances that I chalk up to builder indifference). Plus I now save on gas and parking since we can both bike or bus to work (another $100 a month easily with the cost of gas and parking passes). Would I do it again, probably.
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honestly you should probably go eat with your colleagues at some point. Just bring your lunch. It's always good to be sociable and connect with people at work.
other than that there's no need to justify yourself to people but I probably wouldn't put it out there that we don't buy gifts(we do). I'd probably just be happy for people and let them enjoy what they have.
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I say that I am saving for a house (true - but I am already way beyond the 5% most first home buyers would put down)
People put down 5% on a house???! I thought 20% was the normally accepted standard....if there is such a thing.
Yeah, it's quite common for first home buyers here... average house price is $535k. Average rent is 500/week (assuming you can even get a rental, vacancies are just over 1%, but back when I was looking was 0.6%) making it hard to save that $110k you need for a deposit. Also many low income earners do not qualify for a rental (as you need to earn 3x the rent) whereas they can qualify for a loan to buy a basic house in the $350k range. In many neighborhoods the interest on the loan is less than the rent and banks do not insist on 3x mortgage payments.
[City has under gone significant population growth with insufficient development resulting in a housing shortage The rental vacancy thing would be even worse if it wasn't for the fact that the price has forced many people out of the rental market - either into buying or being the 30 year old that lives at home after a stint out on their own - called "boomerang kids" in the local media. Many of my 25-27 year old co-workers are moving out of home for the first time this year and it will be into their own apartment - I only know one couple other than the "live at home" kids who managed 20%.]
But I also work with people who are paying PMI on their second home... WTF? I can understand pulling the trigger on first home and going in with a small deposit as long as once you are in there you are making loads of extra payments to hit 20% as fast as possible (which to be fair is what a lot of my friends do seem to be doing). But upgrading when you can't put down 20% is crazy. Why not stay in the old house?
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honestly you should probably go eat with your colleagues at some point. Just bring your lunch. It's always good to be sociable and connect with people at work.
It's pretty awkward to go into a restaurant with your own food. I feel like if I'm sitting at a restaurant's table, I ought to order something.
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order a water.
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honestly you should probably go eat with your colleagues at some point. Just bring your lunch. It's always good to be sociable and connect with people at work.
It's pretty awkward to go into a restaurant with your own food. I feel like if I'm sitting at a restaurant's table, I ought to order something.
Eat lunch before you go, and order a drink, or water.
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honestly you should probably go eat with your colleagues at some point. Just bring your lunch. It's always good to be sociable and connect with people at work.
It's pretty awkward to go into a restaurant with your own food. I feel like if I'm sitting at a restaurant's table, I ought to order something.
Eat lunch before you go, and order a drink, or water.
Don't do this if it means they bump you to a bigger table. It's not very nice.
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I'm in my mid 20s and today I was hanging out with a friend of mine (who is 23) who was reading this book she bought for $20 at the large chain bookstore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealthy_Barber
The book says to save 10-15% of your savings and shift your perspective to reduce rampant consumerism. Of course, she thinking she's being very smart about her finances, I couldn't help but to share the gift of mustachianism with her. Unfortunately, she retorted with "But I want to live while I am young." I find this to be a very common belief within a lot of people my age (early to mid 20s).
I don't know what to say to that, other than "hey I am happy and I don't spend a lot!" and then they usually respond with "well I don't spend a lot either." And the conversation just ends there.
This must be how Christians feel when they try to convert people. It is very frustrating because I want to share my joy with her because we are good friends, but all I can do is stand by and watch her spend more and more to "live while she is young".
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I say that I am saving for a house (true - but I am already way beyond the 5% most first home buyers would put down)
People put down 5% on a house???! I thought 20% was the normally accepted standard....if there is such a thing.
Yeah, it's quite common for first home buyers here... average house price is $535k. Average rent is 500/week (assuming you can even get a rental, vacancies are just over 1%, but back when I was looking was 0.6%) making it hard to save that $110k you need for a deposit. Also many low income earners do not qualify for a rental (as you need to earn 3x the rent) whereas they can qualify for a loan to buy a basic house in the $350k range. In many neighborhoods the interest on the loan is less than the rent and banks do not insist on 3x mortgage payments.
[City has under gone significant population growth with insufficient development resulting in a housing shortage The rental vacancy thing would be even worse if it wasn't for the fact that the price has forced many people out of the rental market - either into buying or being the 30 year old that lives at home after a stint out on their own - called "boomerang kids" in the local media. Many of my 25-27 year old co-workers are moving out of home for the first time this year and it will be into their own apartment - I only know one couple other than the "live at home" kids who managed 20%.]
But I also work with people who are paying PMI on their second home... WTF? I can understand pulling the trigger on first home and going in with a small deposit as long as once you are in there you are making loads of extra payments to hit 20% as fast as possible (which to be fair is what a lot of my friends do seem to be doing). But upgrading when you can't put down 20% is crazy. Why not stay in the old house?
A colleague of mine is doing this. She bought a starter home an hour from the city, ended up depressed and isolated, and has just moved into a rental while their new home was built. They also went through unemployment resulting in credit card debt; they no longer use credit cards and her spending patterns are better, but they still believe in working their whole lives.
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I don't actually care what they think about me . . . . Then people get the wrong idea about me through the grapevine.
:-) You do see the contradiction here, right?
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I'm in my mid 20s and today I was hanging out with a friend of mine (who is 23) who was reading this book she bought for $20 at the large chain bookstore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealthy_Barber
I can remember reading this book when I was 22 or 23. Compared to MMM it seems pretty toothless, but there are still lots of great ideas that will put its adherents well above average - and yes, I know that's not saying much... Maybe the Wealthy Barber can be sort of a "gateway approach/drug" to the MMM lifestyle. :-) Don't give up hope! Everyone travels their own path.
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I don't actually care what they think about me . . . . Then people get the wrong idea about me through the grapevine.
:-) You do see the contradiction here, right?
quoted for exceptional clarity.
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I don't actually care what they think about me . . . . Then people get the wrong idea about me through the grapevine.
:-) You do see the contradiction here, right?
quoted for exceptional clarity.
No need to be rude. It actually does make sense. No, I don't care what they THINK about me...yet I care about my reputation!
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So how is your reputation different from what people think about you?
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This is more on the defensive side of the question. I wash and re-use zippy bags for DH's lunches. When the family came for Thanksgiving, there were a few (new ones!) in the sink drainer, waiting to be washed. Later, I noticed the bags were gone. Turns out, my brother saw them, made fun of my ways to our other sibs, and then threw them out.
It did hurt my feelings, but I just had to remind myself that it was unimportant and laugh it off. Funny, when he needs a bridge loan, he comes to me. Not sure how I'll respond next time he needs an interest-free loan. How does he think I have the money in the first place?
Thanks for giving me a place to get this off my chest. I haven't said a word to anyone, but this is a site for kindred spirits. I feel better now.
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I am at a stage and age in my life where I don't really give a damn about what other people think of me. I am also lucky that in my field of work (environmental science, natural resources.) and in the place I live (Yellowknife), I am mostly surrounded by like-minded people who think positively of my lifestyle, or at the very least appreciate my eccentricity, although unlike them, I mostly buy whatever is on special at the store whereas they buy everything organic. The other half of town is the pick-up truck-driving, snowmobile, power boat and ATV riding, smoking, junk food eating, mostly obese crowd who usually spend their free time at Mall-Wart or in front of the idiot box watching NASCAR and munching on cheezies. I feel sorry for these guys because they live their lives on credit, from paycheque to paycheque, and will probably die early of heart disease or other self-inflicted lifestyle illness. I never see them. I am sure they yell some very intelligent expletives when they see me riding my bike on "their" road at -30. It was the same in my 5-year stint as a flight attendant. The vast majority of FAs try to pack healthy lunches and snacks, not only because it is healthier when on the road (or more appropriately in the skies) but to save our meal allowance which usually averages $1100 a month. While pilots eat most of their meals at the restaurant (they spend the whole day in the cockpit by themselves so they want to go out after a day of flying, while FAs are always socializing so they tend to prefer a healthier lifestyle which prioritizes working out and eating right), we all know our differences and all was good.
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honestly you should probably go eat with your colleagues at some point. Just bring your lunch. It's always good to be sociable and connect with people at work.
It's pretty awkward to go into a restaurant with your own food. I feel like if I'm sitting at a restaurant's table, I ought to order something.
Eat lunch before you go, and order a drink, or water.
Don't do this if it means they bump you to a bigger table. It's not very nice.
We don't eat at these kind of restaurants...