How do FIRE'd mustachians cope when others expect things and/or envy?

[TorontoGirl]

I'm not FIRE'd yet, but I'm really curious as to how you all cope with friends and family expecting you to bail them out financially?

I know that keeping my mouth shut is what I need to continue to do. Otherwise, I'll be subjected to a lot of snark and/or pressured to help fund their lifestyle (i.e. invited to a lot of places that I don't want to go or parties where I'd be obligated to bring gifts).

How many of you guys have said anything about your financial status to family or friends? And how do you all deal (if at all) with snark?

I feel like the current society sees poverty and debt as some sort of virtues.

[mspym]

My friends and family don't expect us to bail them out financially. They know that we saved a bunch of money so that we could afford to stop work and focus on art, i.e. become struggling artists. Most of them are also financially savvy and anti-establishment so escaping the rat race is a totally valid goal.

I would separate that out from seeing invitations to join them in fun activities and parties as "funding their lifestyle". What do you lose by viewing that through the lens of they want to spend time with you in social situations? You can choose to do the things that sound fun, decline the invitations you don't want, go to the events that improve bonding, and propose less expensive but still fun social bonding activities of your own, which lets them know that you like them and want to spend time with them. If none of that is true, then maybe you need to find friends more aligned with your values.

[TorontoGirl]

My friends and family don't expect us to bail them out financially. They know that we saved a bunch of money so that we could afford to stop work and focus on art, i.e. become struggling artists. Most of them are also financially savvy and anti-establishment so escaping the rat race is a totally valid goal.

I would separate that out from seeing invitations to join them in fun activities and parties as "funding their lifestyle". What do you lose by viewing that through the lens of they want to spend time with you in social situations? You can choose to do the things that sound fun, decline the invitations you don't want, go to the events that improve bonding, and propose less expensive but still fun social bonding activities of your own, which lets them know that you like them and want to spend time with them. If none of that is true, then maybe you need to find friends more aligned with your values.

Clearly. Not all friends, but there are absolutely some people who are going to become jealous and act accordingly.

[oldladystache]

None of my friends and relatives have ever behaved that badly.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

My friends and family don't expect us to bail them out financially. They know that we saved a bunch of money so that we could afford to stop work and focus on art, i.e. become struggling artists. Most of them are also financially savvy and anti-establishment so escaping the rat race is a totally valid goal.

I would separate that out from seeing invitations to join them in fun activities and parties as "funding their lifestyle". What do you lose by viewing that through the lens of they want to spend time with you in social situations? You can choose to do the things that sound fun, decline the invitations you don't want, go to the events that improve bonding, and propose less expensive but still fun social bonding activities of your own, which lets them know that you like them and want to spend time with them. If none of that is true, then maybe you need to find friends more aligned with your values.

Clearly. Not all friends, but there are absolutely some people who are going to become jealous and act accordingly.

I don't really hang out with people like this. My friends/family come from a wide swath of financial places, but we all adjust, based on what we can afford. If someone expected me to regularly pay for them, we likely wouldn't be friends.

[deborah]

It’s never been an issue. We look like ordinary average everyday people.

[mspym]

Clearly. Not all friends, but there are absolutely some people who are going to become jealous and act accordingly.

Are there? Are there really? Maybe it's because I FIREd on essentially the minimum wage in my country but no one's jealous of this. Probably the closer anyone came was when I was once too honest about the salary that I walked away from but since that was in the context of "I don't make this much any more" it's pretty clear the firehose of cash has been turned off.

How would anyone get that expectation from you? Are you dripping in designer goods? Are you jetting off to the other side of the world without also boosting about travelhacking? As @deborah says, look like ordinary average everyday people and the question won't even arise.

[Zikoris]

I have a general life policy of not associating with screw-ups or assholes, and that eliminates most problems of that nature. I would offer to look over anyone's budget if they genuinely wanted to make changes though.

[FINate]

We've been FIRE for 8 years now. Not a single family member or friend has behaved in this way, at least not to our face. While we don't try to keep our status a secret, we also don't flaunt it or talk about it unless asked. And we don't make ostentatious displays of wealth. We're just average looking people that happen to have a lot of free time :)

I had one family member rather awkwardly ask me to invest in their business venture. I politely explained that, as a matter of principle, I don't do that.

As for gifts: be generous, you can't bring it with you. By generous I don't mean wasteful or extravagant, but rather give what you're comfortable giving and do so with joy. We gift within the accepted range of social norms. If it's someone we know well and it's a big event (e.g. wedding) we're extra generous. Distant nephew that we almost never see is graduating high school? Meh, a card and a token amount.

Finally, if your friends are snarky about your financial successes, or are just hanging around to get something, are they really friends?

[charis]

This is a typical thread that causes people who love to say, I have better friends and family than you and they would never be jealous of my success and I would never be or stay friends with someone that would be jealous or snarky.

Well good for them. The truth is that if you have friends from childhood and all walks of life, there will be some that express jealousy because they are honest and human. I personally don't share my finances with anyone. A few folks will hear of my fire ambitions but only if they are familiar with fire.

[FINate]

It's not that I've never had anyone be jealous or snarky... I just don't view these folks as friends.

[Freedomin5]

I have close family members (DH's siblings) who expect us to bail them out or give them things that they can't otherwise afford themselves because in their eyes, we have good jobs and bought an investment condo and own a cottage and drive a nice car. We are well-off compared to them, and there are some things we can't hide, like the car we drive when we visit them or vacation plans we have.

When they first found out that DH has a good job as a teacher, they expected him to fund their kid's very expensive competitive sports -- I think it was $500 or something like that. DH told them it wasn't something we budgeted for, but he was willing to pay for a tutor for the kid (who was failing many of his classes). They also asked DH to buy the kid a specific laptop for school work. DH is a computer guy, so he called the kid and asked what schoolwork he would be using the laptop for. The kid said Microsoft Word and doing research on the internet. So instead of some fancy $2000 laptop, DH said a very mediocre $200 laptop would meet the kid's needs, and he was very willing to order a $200 laptop and have it shipped to the kid's house.

Funny thing, the kid and his mom declined DH's generous offer. A few months later, the kid had a $2000 laptop, which, if I recall correctly, he used for gaming.

They learned never to ask us for money ever again. It's been 10+ years. We will invite them our cottage (which they don't like to come to because it's not fancy enough). We offer to drive them to appointments. We will pay for groceries if we are visiting and helping them run errands.

Moral of the story: "No" is a full sentence. Use it with the relatives and friends who expect handouts, and after a while, they'll stop asking.

I don't usually talk about our financial status, but there's some things that you can't hide. With the snarky "must be nice", I simply shrug and say, "Yeah, it is pretty nice." With the people whom I actually care about, I add, "You could do it too. Anyone can do it on a normal salary. I could show you how, if you want."

If they invite me to places that are expensive and I don't want to go, a simple, "Sorry, I don't have enough money in my budget this month to go."

[RetireOrDieTrying]

I am very, VERY closed-mouthed about my finances. I can count on one hand the number of people who know what my income is or how much I'm saving. I live on 21% of my income, drive a 28-year-old vehicle with most of a quarter of a million miles on it, wear cargo pants and T-shirts. Absolutely nobody would suspect, and that's by design. I'd say that most of my family and friends wouldn't come to me for money, but there are some who would (and have, even not knowing my income).

I make it hard to ask when they're wearing nicer clothes and driving nicer cars than I. For those who ask anyway, I look them right in the eye and tell them I won't be doing that.

[bacchi]

It's pretty hard to hide having a LOT more free time and flexibility.

I suspect that some of our circle don't envy us at all (or think we're being lazy and spending down our savings). Sure, we can sleep in, read a book, and then take a nap all before meeting them for a gaming session but they have a huge house, with a $1M mortgage (!), and drive expensive cars! Why would they envy us, who live in a bungalow and ride our bikes around?

And that's ok. They made their choice and we made ours.

[deborah]

Depends on what you’re doing with your time. If you’re busy living your life, people don’t necessarily notice. Come to think of it, SO wears overalls a lot of the time. I guess most people think you’re a tradie if you’re wearing overalls, and tradies can be anywhere at any time.

[charis]

I have close family members (DH's siblings) who expect us to bail them out or give them things that they can't otherwise afford themselves...

When they first found out that DH has a good job as a teacher, they expected him to fund their kid's very expensive competitive sports ...

This cracked me up.  Do they pay teachers well where you live?

[Freedomin5]

I have close family members (DH's siblings) who expect us to bail them out or give them things that they can't otherwise afford themselves...

When they first found out that DH has a good job as a teacher, they expected him to fund their kid's very expensive competitive sports ...

This cracked me up.  Do they pay teachers well where you live?

Let’s see…back then DH was making about $1300 Cdn a month in China, but we had free housing, so…no, I wouldn’t say he was particularly well-compensated. They didn’t know exactly how much he made, but he’s the only university graduate in his family, so I think they thought he was loaded. Also, I think they were expecting DH to give them his salary and then live off my salary.

[charis]

I have close family members (DH's siblings) who expect us to bail them out or give them things that they can't otherwise afford themselves...

When they first found out that DH has a good job as a teacher, they expected him to fund their kid's very expensive competitive sports ...

This cracked me up.  Do they pay teachers well where you live?

Let’s see…back then DH was making about $1300 Cdn a month in China, but we had free housing, so…no, I wouldn’t say he was particularly well-compensated. They didn’t know exactly how much he made, but he’s the only university graduate in his family, so I think they thought he was loaded. Also, I think they were expecting DH to give them his salary and then live off my salary.

That's interesting.  In the US, if you are a teacher, people assume you are poor, working a second job, or in a dual income household.  I guess the silver lining is that no one asks to borrow money (they are more likely to offer it).

[Metalcat]

I handle it the same way I handle all unreasonable expectations: boundaries.

As for envy, people are welcome to envy whatever they want to, I have a lot of awesome in my life. What they're not allowed to do is be resentful towards me. Or if they are, then again, boundaries.

[TreeLeaf]

lol

My family and I live FAR below the official poverty line. Ain't nobody jealous of my 16 year old banged up POS car and 4 year old budget smartphone and used clothes from garage sales.

In fact many people assume we have financial problems - even people who aware of my salary and where I work, etc.

Also - as @Metalcat mentions - boundaries are important.

Seriously I have never had this problem.

No one IRL knows our networth anyway. My SO and I just don't mention we are millionaires to anyone.

[Metalcat]

lol

My family and I live FAR below the official poverty line. Ain't nobody jealous of my 16 year old banged up POS car and 4 year old budget smartphone and used clothes from garage sales.

In fact many people assume we have financial problems - even people who aware of my salary and where I work, etc.

Also - as @Metalcat mentions - boundaries are important.

Seriously I have never had this problem.

No one IRL knows our networth anyway. My SO and I just don't mention we are millionaires to anyone.

This was our experience as well. Even though DH's salary is public record, many of his colleagues assumed he was financially struggling because he biked to work and always brought hard boiled eggs to work.

Hilariously, no people treat us like we're wealthy because we have a summer home in an exotic location, but it doesn't occur to them that the combined cost of our 2 homes is still only a a third to a fifth as expensive as their primary homes.

People don't actually think things through, they make split judgements, and when someone does something outside of the norm, these split judgements lead to really weird conclusions.

[Freedomin5]

Some people go to almost crazy stalker-ish lengths to dig into your financials. My mom once invited DH’s family over for lunch in an effort to be polite and civil. SIL called a realtor friend afterwards and looked up the value of my mom’s house. In her mind, I (and DH by default) would inherit the house. Then she spent the next several days telling DH and anyone else who would listen how rich DH was going to be. So crass.

To prevent the requests for future cash handouts and also future resentment when we said “no”, DH and I started hinting that my mom was going to give everything away to charity and not leave an inheritance to her kids (which is partially true). I don’t know if SIL stopped after that, but she stopped talking about it to our face.

I can’t stop them from thinking that we are rich, but I can hopefully prevent them from expecting money from us.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

It's not that I've never had anyone be jealous or snarky... I just don't view these folks as friends.

This on the friendship side. On the family side, we are super lucky, in that my family all has really good boundaries, and while they would accept something as a gift (we tend to pay for experiences, treat them to travel, etc), there are zero expectations. I do help out a developmentally disabled aunt, and that is an expectation, I suppose you could say, but all of the family members are helping out, so I'm not alone there.

My husband's family lives in Iran, and we would definitely help out more if we could. However, it's illegal for us to send money back & forth due to political sanctions, so that eliminates any asks from that side. We have waived his inheritance, so he can give it all to his sister, so there should be no expectations beyond that. Does he have other rando relatives who want/expect something from us? Potentially, but I've never seen or met them before, so they don't impact my life in any way.

[charis]

lol

My family and I live FAR below the official poverty line. Ain't nobody jealous of my 16 year old banged up POS car and 4 year old budget smartphone and used clothes from garage sales.

In fact many people assume we have financial problems - even people who aware of my salary and where I work, etc.

Also - as @Metalcat mentions - boundaries are important.

Seriously I have never had this problem.

No one IRL knows our networth anyway. My SO and I just don't mention we are millionaires to anyone.

This was our experience as well. Even though DH's salary is public record, many of his colleagues assumed he was financially struggling because he biked to work and always brought hard boiled eggs to work.

Hilariously, no people treat us like we're wealthy because we have a summer home in an exotic location, but it doesn't occur to them that the combined cost of our 2 homes is still only a a third to a fifth as expensive as their primary homes.

People don't actually think things through, they make split judgements, and when someone does something outside of the norm, these split judgements lead to really weird conclusions.

Same here with others' perception of us.  I'm willing to bet that folks think one of us has a secret gambling or drug addiction, or something, lol, because they can't reconcile our lifestyle, etc.

On the flip side, even knowing this, I sometimes do the same thing! I have a colleague who drives a beater or takes the bus.  My first impulse (quickly batted away) was to wonder if they were having financial issues.  Given how we are conditioned to belief that wealthy appearance = wealth, it's not a surprise that people do this.

[Loren Ver]

DH and I are FIREd and pretty much everyone knows it.  If asked we tell people we are retired.  We don't necessarily tell people our networth nor our income as no one cares (except those also chasing FIRE then I happily share).  We are lean FIRE and low spenders so it makes things seem even more achievable to the average person with more average jobs.

As for friends and family, we never set the expectation that we would loan money or bail people out.  We actually had more cash flow when working and never did this, why would when do it when we "slashed" our income?  The expectations never changed, since we as people never changed.

On the flip side, we are generous with our friends and families.  If we invite people to Christmas dinner out, we pay for the whole crew, as some might not be able to easily pay otherwise while some are big earners.  We invited, so we pay. 

We also give knowledge and  time.  Helping friends move.  Helping them learn about finances or other topics.  Helping with big decisions.  Giving rides to hospital and staying with them.  Cooking food after family members pass away.  Spending time together.
You know, being friends. 

Loren

[FINate]

It's not that I've never had anyone be jealous or snarky... I just don't view these folks as friends.

This on the friendship side. On the family side, we are super lucky, in that my family all has really good boundaries, and while they would accept something as a gift (we tend to pay for experiences, treat them to travel, etc), there are zero expectations. I do help out a developmentally disabled aunt, and that is an expectation, I suppose you could say, but all of the family members are helping out, so I'm not alone there.

My husband's family lives in Iran, and we would definitely help out more if we could. However, it's illegal for us to send money back & forth due to political sanctions, so that eliminates any asks from that side. We have waived his inheritance, so he can give it all to his sister, so there should be no expectations beyond that. Does he have other rando relatives who want/expect something from us? Potentially, but I've never seen or met them before, so they don't impact my life in any way.

Agreed, family is trickier. But as Metalcat points out, boundaries are the key. Like most people, we have some unpleasant relatives that we keep at arms length. We're civil with them, which is mostly a Holiday thing, but I give zero fucks what they think of us or our choices. Here's the thing I've learned about assholes... they thrive on reaction and offence. So I don't give them that power and mostly ignore the asshatery (I draw the line if they're picking on someone else). Other than large family functions, we don't hang out with these folks. And we certainly don't buy them laptops or fund their club sports or stuff like that.

The topic of this thread pops up fairly regularly. I'm not a fan of trying to keep things secret or tiptoeing around certain people. This doesn't mean oversharing financial information, but instead simply living our life, being honest when people ask what we do for work, and being clear with boundaries. Every once in a while someone tries to pry about the details of our finances, to which I directly respond that this is a private matter I won't discuss. Pretty simple. There's so much freedom when I realized I have the power to set boundaries and can say "no" without needing the approval of others.

[TreeLeaf]

lol

My family and I live FAR below the official poverty line. Ain't nobody jealous of my 16 year old banged up POS car and 4 year old budget smartphone and used clothes from garage sales.

In fact many people assume we have financial problems - even people who aware of my salary and where I work, etc.

Also - as @Metalcat mentions - boundaries are important.

Seriously I have never had this problem.

No one IRL knows our networth anyway. My SO and I just don't mention we are millionaires to anyone.

This was our experience as well. Even though DH's salary is public record, many of his colleagues assumed he was financially struggling because he biked to work and always brought hard boiled eggs to work.

Hilariously, no people treat us like we're wealthy because we have a summer home in an exotic location, but it doesn't occur to them that the combined cost of our 2 homes is still only a a third to a fifth as expensive as their primary homes.

People don't actually think things through, they make split judgements, and when someone does something outside of the norm, these split judgements lead to really weird conclusions.

Same here with others' perception of us.  I'm willing to bet that folks think one of us has a secret gambling or drug addiction, or something, lol, because they can't reconcile our lifestyle, etc.

On the flip side, even knowing this, I sometimes do the same thing! I have a colleague who drives a beater or takes the bus.  My first impulse (quickly batted away) was to wonder if they were having financial issues.  Given how we are conditioned to belief that wealthy appearance = wealth, it's not a surprise that people do this.

Haha - I just realized I do this as well, even when I know the financial details about the couple.

I know a couple who are in debt up to their eyeballs, low income, but they always insist on having nice luxury vehicles, nice things, etc. I mentally think of them as rich, even though they are flat broke. They won't even accept things from us they need, because they are not name brand, etc.

Meanwhile they assume we are flat broke, when we're actually millionaires.

Actually I can think of an example of where a good friend of mine figured out I was actually well off and asked for money.

While I was at lunch, eating my PB&J sandwich with carrots, he called me begging for money. He explained that he had ran out of money, and needed money until his next paycheck for food. He said he was down to eating PB&J sandwiches until his next paycheck.

I calmly put my PB&J sandwich down and explained to him I was not going to pay for his highly inflated lifestyle, that I NORMALLY eat PB&J sandwiches and that if he wanted to pay for this sort of excess he can go get a second job to pay for it. I told him if he really needed my help then he can sell his luxury vehicles, his boat, his giant house, and live like I live. Then if he becomes homeless while living this sort of lifestyle I will help him.

He then called everyone in his family begging for money, who all denied him also.

He ate his PB&J sandwiches for a couple weeks then learned how to be financially responsible, and it worked out well all around. We are still friends today and he has no hard feelings about it. He viewed it as a good learning experience.

Boundaries.

[Dicey]

It’s never been an issue. We look like ordinary average everyday people.

Lol, @deborah's been to my house. I think to others, we look like we might be drowning in debt, but the only people who know we have no debt are other forumites.

As to family, they know I've always been responsible with money. I have a black sheep sister who screwed me out of money very early on. Though it hurt a lot at the time, it's saved me a lot more in the long run. My brother who is in the most similar situation has a pretty good guess, but we don't really talk about money particulars in family/social settings.

I think it helps to live in a HCOLA, where we only seem average.

[Sandi_k]

I fear we'll see more of this in a couple of years, when we retire earlier than anyone in our family.

My MIL has already asked "Why in the world would you want to retire at 60?" My answer? "Because I CAN."

I have been working since I was 12. I think 48 years is enough. She was a SAHM for years, and then began doing Avon for some cash to spend as she would, since DFIL wasn't going to buy the car she wanted.

So she did Avon for 40 years. But it never supported her, let alone the family. Her world view just doesn't seem to compute with the mental tax of being employed as I am employed, and the family absolutely dependent on the funds I bring home.

So yeah. I think there's likely to be some envy. But everyone is well aware of how careful we are with our funds, and how we've been saving consistently for years. I hope that will offset some of the envy. I guess we'll see.

[Frankies Girl]

I know if anyone did ask for help, we'd assess the need and go from there if it was strictly about money, but I'm definitely open to offering other forms of help, advice, whatever if that was welcome. But anyone that acted as if we owed them money/bail outs... that would be shut down pretty fast with a "sorry, but we don't have the ability to help you that way/it's not in our budget" sort of thing. And then reassess the relationship if that wasn't good enough for them.

[TorontoGirl]

Clearly. Not all friends, but there are absolutely some people who are going to become jealous and act accordingly.

Are there? Are there really? Maybe it's because I FIREd on essentially the minimum wage in my country but no one's jealous of this. Probably the closer anyone came was when I was once too honest about the salary that I walked away from but since that was in the context of "I don't make this much any more" it's pretty clear the firehose of cash has been turned off.

How would anyone get that expectation from you? Are you dripping in designer goods? Are you jetting off to the other side of the world without also boosting about travelhacking? As @deborah says, look like ordinary average everyday people and the question won't even arise.

Yes. Hard to believe!

[TorontoGirl]

I have a general life policy of not associating with screw-ups or assholes, and that eliminates most problems of that nature. I would offer to look over anyone's budget if they genuinely wanted to make changes though.

Your reply basically clarified something. I know all too well to not associate myself with assholes, but to also not associate myself with screw-ups--that's also key!

[TorontoGirl]

This is a typical thread that causes people who love to say, I have better friends and family than you and they would never be jealous of my success and I would never be or stay friends with someone that would be jealous or snarky.

Well good for them. The truth is that if you have friends from childhood and all walks of life, there will be some that express jealousy because they are honest and human. I personally don't share my finances with anyone. A few folks will hear of my fire ambitions but only if they are familiar with fire.

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much. It becomes quite annoying. I've isolated myself from most of these friends but I get lonely--I'm an introvert and socially awkward and find it hard to make friends.

[TorontoGirl]

Some people go to almost crazy stalker-ish lengths to dig into your financials. My mom once invited DH’s family over for lunch in an effort to be polite and civil. SIL called a realtor friend afterwards and looked up the value of my mom’s house. In her mind, I (and DH by default) would inherit the house. Then she spent the next several days telling DH and anyone else who would listen how rich DH was going to be. So crass.

To prevent the requests for future cash handouts and also future resentment when we said “no”, DH and I started hinting that my mom was going to give everything away to charity and not leave an inheritance to her kids (which is partially true). I don’t know if SIL stopped after that, but she stopped talking about it to our face.

I can’t stop them from thinking that we are rich, but I can hopefully prevent them from expecting money from us.

Things like this would totally infuriate me!

I can't stand people like your SIL.

My original post was regarding people like this.

[Freedomin5]

Some people go to almost crazy stalker-ish lengths to dig into your financials. My mom once invited DH’s family over for lunch in an effort to be polite and civil. SIL called a realtor friend afterwards and looked up the value of my mom’s house. In her mind, I (and DH by default) would inherit the house. Then she spent the next several days telling DH and anyone else who would listen how rich DH was going to be. So crass.

To prevent the requests for future cash handouts and also future resentment when we said “no”, DH and I started hinting that my mom was going to give everything away to charity and not leave an inheritance to her kids (which is partially true). I don’t know if SIL stopped after that, but she stopped talking about it to our face.

I can’t stop them from thinking that we are rich, but I can hopefully prevent them from expecting money from us.

Things like this would totally infuriate me!

I can't stand people like your SIL.

My original post was regarding people like this.

It was highly distasteful and mildly annoying. Meh. They aren’t worth my time or mental energy. She doesn’t know anyone in her social circle who is well-educated and white collar, so we (especially me as I have more education than DH) are kind of like an exotic animal to her. People are going to make assumptions about you when you’re an exotic animal — like a millennial living in Toronto with a good handle on their finances. I get how it’s like. I’m an older millennial who grew up in Toronto. My friends make comments occasionally about us owning a condo in Toronto, a cottage in the Muskokas, and three months annual vacation. You learn to just shrug it off.

[Metalcat]

This is a typical thread that causes people who love to say, I have better friends and family than you and they would never be jealous of my success and I would never be or stay friends with someone that would be jealous or snarky.

Well good for them. The truth is that if you have friends from childhood and all walks of life, there will be some that express jealousy because they are honest and human. I personally don't share my finances with anyone. A few folks will hear of my fire ambitions but only if they are familiar with fire.

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much. It becomes quite annoying. I've isolated myself from most of these friends but I get lonely--I'm an introvert and socially awkward and find it hard to make friends.

FTR, I'm *very* open about my finances with people, I don't feel any need to be private about it, and I still don't have to deal with much bullshit from people because, as I said, boundaries.

You train people how to treat you.

Also as I already said, it's fine if people envy you or are jealous, as Charis says, this is a normal human reaction. But it can be managed in a way that's totally reasonable, and even kind.

I get jealous of all sorts of things with my friends, and it drives me to be happy for them. The more jealous I am, the more I'm also like "wow, good for them!"

You can condition the people around you that this is the reaction you expect from them when they feel envy.

The key thing to learn is that it's okay to piss people off. It sounds like you're asking "how can I avoid pissing anyone off and never confronting anyone about their unfair behaviour and expectations towards me?" Well, if you want to maintain healthy relationships, you can't.

It's not about "coping" with shitty behaviour from the people closest to you, it's about learning how to engage in healthy conflict and advocating for your own needs in those relationships.

When people glibly say "get better friends" what they're actually saying is "get better boundaries and expectations of your friends."

[Omy]

I haven't had many requests or experienced much in the way of envy during almost 4 years of FIRE.

I did have somebody ask for a six figure sum to get them out of trouble and promised to pay me back quickly. It would have taken decades (if ever) to see that money again, and I had no intention of getting involved with the people demanding the money so I said "no" but helped them find a good attorney.

Family members know that our investments are in real estate and the market, so we don't have money just lying around. We actually have a much lower income than most of our family members even though we have a much higher net worth.

We have recently been expected to pay for the care of an older parent since "we can afford it". It's hard to say no to that, so I'm keeping track and thinking about removing that amount from the inheritance we would potentially give the sibling who never has money for anything but their own extravagant life. If anybody has ideas on how to handle that better, I'm all ears!

[ender]

The only person I've had a negative reaction with is my father, who was actually making "jokes" about our spending (specifically me being able to afford nice tools, I generally adopt a "buy once, cry once" mentality on tools).

But I basically confronted him about this and he's since stopped making those comments.

I don't think anyone in our family really knows the true extent of my income and our savings.

We could certainly live more frugally though, which I think would make people feel differently on this.

[charis]

This is a typical thread that causes people who love to say, I have better friends and family than you and they would never be jealous of my success and I would never be or stay friends with someone that would be jealous or snarky.

Well good for them. The truth is that if you have friends from childhood and all walks of life, there will be some that express jealousy because they are honest and human. I personally don't share my finances with anyone. A few folks will hear of my fire ambitions but only if they are familiar with fire.

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much. It becomes quite annoying. I've isolated myself from most of these friends but I get lonely--I'm an introvert and socially awkward and find it hard to make friends.

FTR, I'm *very* open about my finances with people, I don't feel any need to be private about it, and I still don't have to deal with much bullshit from people because, as I said, boundaries.

You train people how to treat you.

Also as I already said, it's fine if people envy you or are jealous, as Charis says, this is a normal human reaction. But it can be managed in a way that's totally reasonable, and even kind.

I get jealous of all sorts of things with my friends, and it drives me to be happy for them. The more jealous I am, the more I'm also like "wow, good for them!"

You can condition the people around you that this is the reaction you expect from them when they feel envy.

The key thing to learn is that it's okay to piss people off. It sounds like you're asking "how can I avoid pissing anyone off and never confronting anyone about their unfair behaviour and expectations towards me?" Well, if you want to maintain healthy relationships, you can't.

It's not about "coping" with shitty behaviour from the people closest to you, it's about learning how to engage in healthy conflict and advocating for your own needs in those relationships.

When people glibly say "get better friends" what they're actually saying is "get better boundaries and expectations of your friends."

I personally have no problem discussing our general financial picture/goals with people if they are interested in talking about it, but most actively avoid conversations about money unless they are complaining about it.  I have a few friends with whom I can have honest conversations about early retirement.  But I won't be talking numbers with anyone because I have a dysfunctional family member who, if they get wind of it, will use it as an excuse take even more advantage of certain other, elderly family members (they feel entitled to "family" money and it's a feeling that runs through both sides of the family). 

[iluvzbeach]

I find it really interesting and annoying that people who have terrible spending habits actually feel jealous or entitled to money that those who save have on hand.  I'm not referring to people who are legitimately low earners struggling to make ends meet on the basic necessities, I'm talking specifically about people who treat themselves to every luxury one can imagine and then have the audacity to think that those of us who live below our means and save should be available to rescue them financially and allow them to continue living the same way they always have.

Fortunately, I don't have any friends or living family members who behave like this but my father long felt that he was entitled to everyone else's money.  He & his wife always spent more money than DH & me (we made more but actually saved money - a foreign concept to my dad) and my dad asked for money yet again; when I responded and told him that we wouldn't be able to help because we were getting ready to pay annual property tax and insurance, his response was that perhaps my husband (FIREd) should get a job so we'd have more money.  What my dad really meant by this was that my DH should get a job so we could/would send HIM money on a regular basis.  With my dad, I always felt like I had to have an excuse as to "why" we wouldn't/couldn't help them this time around and it was in large part because he would push & push trying to get the money.  He would try to get me to take loans, credit card cash advances and even loans or distributions from my workplace retirement funds.  I've very glad to not have to deal with that crap anymore and I learned a whole lot from that decades long experience in terms of what not to say and do regarding money and other people.

Back to the OPs original question, I'm recently FIREd and still trying to figure out how to answer some of the questions about how we're able to be retired at relatively young ages.  We don't have children and I often find myself using that as my "justification" for how we were able to retire early.  I need to work on getting more comfortable responding to the question.  In my experience, most people who ask the question about how we did it aren't really asking because they want to know - I get the sense it's largely a "that must be nice" type of question vs. asking out of genuine curiosity.

[ChickenStash]

I'm not FIREd but far enough in the journey that I have resources. I don't bring up my financial status with folks but I don't hide it, either, so my friends and family have a vague idea that I'm not hurting for money. I don't hide that I'm trying to retire early.

I've had a few issues come up with close family asking for money. I just take it on a case-by-case basis whether or not I'll help. In one case my mom asked for help with a down payment on a small house and I felt it was a good thing so I helped. I once had someone seriously ask to help buy them a boat and I laughed at them. It all depends.

I've never had a friend ask, but most of my friends have a household income and/or net worth higher than me so they wouldn't need to.

[dividendman]

My strategy has been rolling around in a 2006 car and having all of my clothes cost < $10 an item. I've found that nobody really envies that.

[Villanelle]

I don't see how inviting you to a place or party is asking you to fund their lifestyle?  That sounds more like a personal hangup of yours than bad behavior on the part of friends and family.  If you don't want to go, or don't want to buy a gift when attendance means that manners require a gift, politely decline.  If you want to do cheaper or free things with them, invite them and make it fun and easy. 

If anyone actually asks for money, which is unfortunately quite possible for me with 1 family member, the planned response is, "We don't have any extra money right now," which is true.  None of our money is "extra".  That may or may not be well-received, but I don't much care about the reception of the message. 

[mspym]

Clearly. Not all friends, but there are absolutely some people who are going to become jealous and act accordingly.

Are there? Are there really? Maybe it's because I FIREd on essentially the minimum wage in my country but no one's jealous of this. Probably the closer anyone came was when I was once too honest about the salary that I walked away from but since that was in the context of "I don't make this much any more" it's pretty clear the firehose of cash has been turned off.

How would anyone get that expectation from you? Are you dripping in designer goods? Are you jetting off to the other side of the world without also boosting about travelhacking? As @deborah says, look like ordinary average everyday people and the question won't even arise.

Yes. Hard to believe!

OK. I would still recommend separating off 'people looking for a hand-out' from 'people inviting me to participate in their [more spendy] lifestyle. You said in your post:

Otherwise, I'll be subjected to a lot of snark and/or pressured to help fund their lifestyle (i.e. invited to a lot of places that I don't want to go or parties where I'd be obligated to bring gifts).

and that seems to be mashing the two groups together.

People looking for a hand-out: "no"; "no, thank you"; "I can donate $x"
People inviting you to participate in their more spendy lifestyle: "thanks but not this time, have fun!"; "I'm doing Cheap Thing X this weekend, want to come?"; "the Bahamas? That sounds amazing, tell me about it when you get back"; Third bachelorette party in Vegas for the one wedding "that doesn't work for my schedule, I can do Events Y and Z, let me know the details"

This is assuming you aren't having the sort of financially entitled family member problems other people have mentioned upthread, but if you have those then it could happen at any financial level, not just at FIRE, and in those cases absolute silence on any financial details at all and some work on defining and maintaining boundaries is needed.

[Laura33]

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much.

What you need is a generic comment that allows you to participate in the complaining without feeling like you're lying.  People in similar situations complain about common issues as a way of bonding with each other -- it's shared hardship, which allows each person to show empathy for the others, which brings the group closer.  So if you don't complain, you're sort of setting yourself apart from the group, which is awkward and uncomfortable for everyone -- it's sort of like a ritual, and when someone doesn't provide the expected response, it throws everyone else off, and now they don't know how to react.  And of course one natural response to feeling uncomfortable is to blame the person who didn't follow the "rules" and made you feel that way.  If you think about it, since the whole point is bonding, if you're not participating, they'll naturally want to send you back a signal that says, "well, fine, then you're not part of the group."  Which, not coincidentally, is often phrased as some version of "must be nice."

So is there something you can say that would signal that you're trying to fit in?  I mean, it seems like if your complaint is that they're wanting to go places that you find too expensive, it would be pretty easy to say something like, "yeah, it's rough, I hate how rarely I see you guys, but the budget just doesn't allow too many of these fancy restaurants/bars/parties/trips/etc."  You don't have to specify that the "budget" includes a massive chunk of savings. 

IOW:  focus less on what they are saying than on why they are saying it, and then figure out how you can share in the ritual, even though your facts are very different.

Sincerely,

Your Fellow Socially-Awkward Introvert Who Spent WAAAYYYY Too Much Time Trying To Figure Out People

[Philociraptor]

We're pretty open about our finances: not actual numbers on assets but incomes and spending aren't big secrets, depending on the person we're talking to. Echoing the statement about boundaries, we are open so that we can learn from each other, not to give anybody the idea that we are a bank.

When we were first starting out we were loaned money by family for our house down payment. In one case we went to pay it back about 18 months later and they had forgotten about even loaning it to us. Since then we've helped siblings out with small loans on school expenses or larger loans for their house downpayments. We're also fairly generous in our gift-giving, especially to our parents.

A nephew in high school once asked us if we were millionaires and we simply told him "not yet, but hopefully within a few years". Friends and family know how much we paid for our house, see that we share a single car, and have come over enough times to see that we don't buy a lot.

The wife and I actually wonder about where other people's money goes, there are several people in our lives that make more money than we do (or did at their age) and they have older homes/cars than we do (or did) but complain openly about making ends meet; I doubt very much they are secret Mustachians. Unfortunately, gambling, MLMs, and shopping have taken hold of several of the women in my family. It hurts to watch and I don't hide my distain when they bring it up, but their lives are theirs to live; just like when we see couples speaking to each other in ways we never would, every relationship is different.

[BicycleB]

We're pretty open about our finances: not actual numbers on assets but incomes and spending aren't big secrets, depending on the person we're talking to. Echoing the statement about boundaries, we are open so that we can learn from each other, not to give anybody the idea that we are a bank.

When we were first starting out we were loaned money by family for our house down payment. In one case we went to pay it back about 18 months later and they had forgotten about even loaning it to us. Since then we've helped siblings out with small loans on school expenses or larger loans for their house downpayments. We're also fairly generous in our gift-giving, especially to our parents.

A nephew in high school once asked us if we were millionaires and we simply told him "not yet, but hopefully within a few years". Friends and family know how much we paid for our house, see that we share a single car, and have come over enough times to see that we don't buy a lot.

The wife and I actually wonder about where other people's money goes, there are several people in our lives that make more money than we do (or did at their age) and they have older homes/cars than we do (or did) but complain openly about making ends meet; I doubt very much they are secret Mustachians. Unfortunately, gambling, MLMs, and shopping have taken hold of several of the women in my family. It hurts to watch and I don't hide my distain when they bring it up, but their lives are theirs to live; just like when we see couples speaking to each other in ways we never would, every relationship is different.

I really like that reply, @Philociraptor! Such a good model of openness and honesty. I bet it sticks with your nephew.

[Metalcat]

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much.

What you need is a generic comment that allows you to participate in the complaining without feeling like you're lying.  People in similar situations complain about common issues as a way of bonding with each other -- it's shared hardship, which allows each person to show empathy for the others, which brings the group closer.  So if you don't complain, you're sort of setting yourself apart from the group, which is awkward and uncomfortable for everyone -- it's sort of like a ritual, and when someone doesn't provide the expected response, it throws everyone else off, and now they don't know how to react.  And of course one natural response to feeling uncomfortable is to blame the person who didn't follow the "rules" and made you feel that way.  If you think about it, since the whole point is bonding, if you're not participating, they'll naturally want to send you back a signal that says, "well, fine, then you're not part of the group."  Which, not coincidentally, is often phrased as some version of "must be nice."

So is there something you can say that would signal that you're trying to fit in?  I mean, it seems like if your complaint is that they're wanting to go places that you find too expensive, it would be pretty easy to say something like, "yeah, it's rough, I hate how rarely I see you guys, but the budget just doesn't allow too many of these fancy restaurants/bars/parties/trips/etc."  You don't have to specify that the "budget" includes a massive chunk of savings. 

IOW:  focus less on what they are saying than on why they are saying it, and then figure out how you can share in the ritual, even though your facts are very different.

Sincerely,

Your Fellow Socially-Awkward Introvert Who Spent WAAAYYYY Too Much Time Trying To Figure Out People

I never complain along with people, I just offer them understanding as to why they are complaining.

You can participate in the complain-game without complaining yourself.

[Villanelle]

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much.

What you need is a generic comment that allows you to participate in the complaining without feeling like you're lying.  People in similar situations complain about common issues as a way of bonding with each other -- it's shared hardship, which allows each person to show empathy for the others, which brings the group closer.  So if you don't complain, you're sort of setting yourself apart from the group, which is awkward and uncomfortable for everyone -- it's sort of like a ritual, and when someone doesn't provide the expected response, it throws everyone else off, and now they don't know how to react.  And of course one natural response to feeling uncomfortable is to blame the person who didn't follow the "rules" and made you feel that way.  If you think about it, since the whole point is bonding, if you're not participating, they'll naturally want to send you back a signal that says, "well, fine, then you're not part of the group."  Which, not coincidentally, is often phrased as some version of "must be nice."

So is there something you can say that would signal that you're trying to fit in?  I mean, it seems like if your complaint is that they're wanting to go places that you find too expensive, it would be pretty easy to say something like, "yeah, it's rough, I hate how rarely I see you guys, but the budget just doesn't allow too many of these fancy restaurants/bars/parties/trips/etc."  You don't have to specify that the "budget" includes a massive chunk of savings. 

IOW:  focus less on what they are saying than on why they are saying it, and then figure out how you can share in the ritual, even though your facts are very different.

Sincerely,

Your Fellow Socially-Awkward Introvert Who Spent WAAAYYYY Too Much Time Trying To Figure Out People

I never complain along with people, I just offer them understanding as to why they are complaining.

You can participate in the complain-game without complaining yourself.

If they are commenting about how hard it is to save, I might say, 'Yes, your job is so stressful and I know how hard you work and it sucks that you aren't able to at least eek some savings out of that."   I don't have to say that savings is a challenge for me (with the trick being that when I say it's a challenge, it's in the "I like to challenge myself to save more" way, so that it's technically true).  While that wouldn't be lying, it's not really engaging in a genuine way, either.  They hopefully hear that I'm empathetic about a crappy job situation and that I see how hard they work and how hard it is for them.  That's probably more important--and more honest, than me trying to find a parallel complaint for my very different life.

If they say they hate making their monthly Tesla payment, I might say, "I love how quiet your Tesla is.  It's a beautiful car. But yeah, one great thing about my Corolla is that at least it was cheap! Car payments suck."  I'm not bragging.  In fact, that's somewhat self-deprecating about my "cheap" car.  And it doesn't sound like I'm judging their Tesla (though I might be!) because I compliment it.  Mostly, it's just acknowledging that car payments do suck. 

Several of my friends want kids and struggle or are still struggling to have them.  What they need from me is understanding about how they experience that.  It doesn't matter that I don't want children, and any tangental complaint I could offer up would likely seem very insensitive.  "I know how much this means to you, and how much effort, time, and money you've put into it.  My heart aches for you that this round didn't work out.  I was so hoping this would be the one for you," means more than any shared complaint or club-joining comment I could ever offer.  I think finances are kinda the same, especially if they have a sense that your situation is different from theirs. 

You don't flaunt they you don't have a car payment or shitty job or fertility issue. That's what gets the "must be nice". You engage with them about themselves and their experience.  "I know you are foodie who loves great meals.  It sucks that you can't do that as often as you'd like."  No joint complaint; just empathizing with their struggle.

[charis]

Thank you so much for this reply. I don't share my finances with people as well. However, I live in Toronto and as a millennial and with our struggling economy, high inflation, and horrible housing, the topic of finances inevitably comes up (almost all the time). I keep things vague and get evasive but my not complaining is fuel enough to go on about how it must be 'nice' that I don't have to struggle so much.

What you need is a generic comment that allows you to participate in the complaining without feeling like you're lying.  People in similar situations complain about common issues as a way of bonding with each other -- it's shared hardship, which allows each person to show empathy for the others, which brings the group closer.  So if you don't complain, you're sort of setting yourself apart from the group, which is awkward and uncomfortable for everyone -- it's sort of like a ritual, and when someone doesn't provide the expected response, it throws everyone else off, and now they don't know how to react.  And of course one natural response to feeling uncomfortable is to blame the person who didn't follow the "rules" and made you feel that way.  If you think about it, since the whole point is bonding, if you're not participating, they'll naturally want to send you back a signal that says, "well, fine, then you're not part of the group."  Which, not coincidentally, is often phrased as some version of "must be nice."

So is there something you can say that would signal that you're trying to fit in?  I mean, it seems like if your complaint is that they're wanting to go places that you find too expensive, it would be pretty easy to say something like, "yeah, it's rough, I hate how rarely I see you guys, but the budget just doesn't allow too many of these fancy restaurants/bars/parties/trips/etc."  You don't have to specify that the "budget" includes a massive chunk of savings. 

IOW:  focus less on what they are saying than on why they are saying it, and then figure out how you can share in the ritual, even though your facts are very different.

Sincerely,

Your Fellow Socially-Awkward Introvert Who Spent WAAAYYYY Too Much Time Trying To Figure Out People

I appreciate this response, because you are correctly noting, it's often used for bonding.