Author Topic: Higher ed layoffs?  (Read 18468 times)

MayDay

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2020, 07:18:20 PM »
Current plans at my institution are to bring back all the students in the fall, but have most classes be entirely online or some ridiculous hybrid. Mask wearing and social distancing will be required, but unenforced. Meals will be picked up from dining halls and students will be encouraged to eat in their rooms. Disinfecting surfaces will largely be up to individuals.

I guess no one in the administration has actually met a college student.

I predict the virus will run rampant. I'm seriously considering retirement a few years earlier than planned.

I'm laughing so hard at your middle paragraph.


maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2020, 11:39:07 AM »
Newest e-mail on our budget cuts includes cutting the portion of health insurance costs paid by the employer asking staff to volunteer to be cut to 0.75 FTE while maintaining full benefits. Sounds like faculty won't have that option to volunteer for that program, at least yet.

beltim

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2020, 11:53:33 AM »
I wonder if anyone has left because of cuts.  These one-sided cuts are a single-sided adjustment to a contract, which from my understanding means the other party can walk away without consequences.

Maizeman, what was the cut in health insurance contributions? 


maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2020, 12:52:50 PM »
The cuts are a fixed dollar amount per employee. So for me, it'll essentially triple what I'm paying towards my health insurance as an employee contribution, but it's still not a huge amount of money (I'll be paying about 20% per month as much as the same plan costs folks on COBRA). For people with spouses/dependents the same dollar amount cut will translate to a much smaller increase in what they're paying monthly towards their health insurance.

Certainly provides an opportunity to walk away, but you'd have to have somewhere to go to for that opportunity to be of value. Right now hiring is pretty frozen across the whole sector. I have to spend multiple weeks filing appeals to get permission to hire a postdoc on a federal grant <-- Since they're paid off a grant not hiring them doesn't save the university any money, it just means more unspent money goes back to the federal government at the end of the grant. Faculty/staff positions are a complete no go.

beltim

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2020, 01:24:04 PM »
The cuts are a fixed dollar amount per employee. So for me, it'll essentially triple what I'm paying towards my health insurance as an employee contribution, but it's still not a huge amount of money (I'll be paying about 20% per month as much as the same plan costs folks on COBRA). For people with spouses/dependents the same dollar amount cut will translate to a much smaller increase in what they're paying monthly towards their health insurance.

Certainly provides an opportunity to walk away, but you'd have to have somewhere to go to for that opportunity to be of value. Right now hiring is pretty frozen across the whole sector. I have to spend multiple weeks filing appeals to get permission to hire a postdoc on a federal grant <-- Since they're paid off a grant not hiring them doesn't save the university any money, it just means more unspent money goes back to the federal government at the end of the grant. Faculty/staff positions are a complete no go.

That's an interesting way to do the cuts. 

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2020, 02:20:58 PM »
I don’t think anyone will be hiring this year.

Star faculty could jump, but they could also negotiate out of the cuts.

Rural

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2020, 06:42:32 PM »
Still no faculty contracts for next year, including for those of us with tenure. Glad I vested in the pension last year.

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2020, 07:42:09 PM »
Following along because I have two in college and I hate to see the cutting going on.  The schools sent us some refunds from unused housing. I wished they didn’t because I know they’re hurting. They weren’t going great before.

Something I was wondering, all the graduating seniors who are stating that they are taking a gap year because of this. Or those protesting that they feel ripped off because they didn’t get the “college experience.”  If people sit on the sidelines next year and then try to rush back in on the 2021-2022 year, won’t that just cause more chaos?   Will all these schools be able to hold the seats for these students?

Pigeon

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2020, 08:42:22 PM »
It will cause chaos for sure. The whole thing is a disaster. A lot of students really hate online classes and that's primarily what they will get in the fall even if they are on campus. I have a college student, two actually, but only one who lives on campus. I don't know yet if she's going to just live at home in the fall since classes are going to be largely online. The on campus experience is going to be lousy and, I predict, riddled with virus.

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2020, 06:23:51 AM »
I certainly hope we're done hearing "Online classes are the wave of the future!" because it turns out that most people hate them.

I'm really interested to see what happens with enrollment, because I think it's going to vary a lot by type of school. Usually at dh's school (a lesser public university) enrollment goes up in difficult economic times because people figure that's a good time to get or finish a degree. The administration is predicting a sharp decrease in enrollment this fall, without giving much evidence of it.

A lot of this summer's online classes are full...

MayDay

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2020, 01:53:40 PM »
State schools near me have basically admitted they have to go back in person come hell or high water because otherwise it will be a financial disaster.

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2020, 02:50:38 PM »
State schools near me have basically admitted they have to go back in person come hell or high water because otherwise it will be a financial disaster.

Yup. We've been informally told that we can hold some of our lectures remotely online, but that the class itself is not allowed to be an online course, even if that means that only a rotating 1/4th of the students are able to attend in person each time and everyone else watched a recording. Once you say online only, enrollment drops like crazy and with 90+% of the budget on salary lines, things get ugly fast.

Of course this seems at best an effort to kick the can down the road a semester, and one that may damage the university's credibility with our students by stretching the definition of in person instruction as far as it can possibly go ... but that stuff is above my pay grade.

Very grateful to be FI.

fuzzy math

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2020, 01:15:10 PM »
They announced mandatory masking on campus at my college. How can (or will students even choose to attend) a school succeed like this? Live in a dorm and be masked 24/7? Communal bathrooms? College students desire to get drunk and hook up? I think enrollment is going to tank beyond the realm of many institution's worst case scenarios. Either families won't trust that it's safe, or students will gauge it as "no fun" and either enroll online, take a year or do community college.

I need to look up when first payments are due for fall semester. That should tell a lot.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2020, 01:22:07 PM »
I certainly hope we're done hearing "Online classes are the wave of the future!" because it turns out that most people hate them.

I'm really interested to see what happens with enrollment, because I think it's going to vary a lot by type of school. Usually at dh's school (a lesser public university) enrollment goes up in difficult economic times because people figure that's a good time to get or finish a degree. The administration is predicting a sharp decrease in enrollment this fall, without giving much evidence of it.

A lot of this summer's online classes are full...

From an outsiders perspective, I would think most of the bitching about online classes is the perceived value. If you are paying $10ks every semester for something you could get free from Coursera, you might be a little upset. Eventually, there will be better integration with projects but right now it seems haphazardly converted to online classes with no extra value-add you normally get with networking, etc.

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2020, 01:53:34 PM »
Michigan State cutting profs base pay 0.5-7% and reducing retirement contributions by 50%. Negotiating with their union for more long term furloughs.

https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/06/23/michigan-state-university-msu-cut-faculty-pay-covid-19-coronavirus/3241708001/

I need to look up when first payments are due for fall semester. That should tell a lot.

Fall semester "deposits" were due weeks ago for us and we've moved from slightly down to slightly up relative to last year's freshman class. My own department saw a steep enrollment drop and the university overall is still seeing a decline in tuition revenue because our mix has shifted to even more domestic students and fewer international.

Whether students are going to stick around for spring semester (or even through fall semester, although there is a sunk cost issue for withdrawing) when the reality of classes in the COVID era sinks in, that I don't know.

Tig_

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2020, 03:04:51 PM »
They announced mandatory masking on campus at my college. How can (or will students even choose to attend) a school succeed like this? Live in a dorm and be masked 24/7? Communal bathrooms? College students desire to get drunk and hook up? I think enrollment is going to tank beyond the realm of many institution's worst case scenarios. Either families won't trust that it's safe, or students will gauge it as "no fun" and either enroll online, take a year or do community college.

I need to look up when first payments are due for fall semester. That should tell a lot.

We're a mandatory mask campus too, but not within the residence halls/ individual offices when not in meetings. We've also gotten some emails about enforcement being challenging because folks with some health conditions won't be able to wear masks all the time and we need to be attuned to that. Apparently we'll let students know mid July what courses will be online and what will be in person.  I've heard estimates of 15% in person courses.  And then they'll have two days to back out of their housing contract with no penalty.  It also sounds like they might not do refunds this semester if we end up closing campus again...

There was also this I saw recently -- https://insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/22/working-paper-models-covid-spread-university?fbclid=IwAR1TAfgpvGMYJJ_viszB983r6wrtxNTx_cVHMShwKoKkTvf7Zvo0beqIKZ8
So, we'll all be closed again soon.

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2020, 03:39:47 PM »
Colleges that are 100% residential are going to closed campuses - kids arrive, get tested, get tested again, and have to stay on campus. So I think the more expensive small schools will do fine. It’s definitely a have/have not set up, though.

fuzzy math

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2020, 06:11:26 PM »
Well my college has 0 useful info other than "we are planning a return to in person classes in the fall". Typical.
If I were a parent and hadn't received some supplemental info that's not available on the website I would not be able to make an informed decision based off that. It looks like dorm decision deposits were due May 1. Tuition isn't due till August. I'm guessing I won't know until August how enrollment is doing.

Pigeon

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2020, 07:05:19 PM »
We are also having mandatory mask wearing but realistically with zero enforcement. There's all sorts of rigamarole about frequent health self checks, but ours is an open campus with tons of visitors and multiple locations.  I think it's going to be a cluster.

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jafr1284

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2020, 08:59:36 AM »
I just graduated music school. All of my friends are probably taking a gap year/ dropping out because it would be a huge waste to pay for music school and not be able to play with others or perform. Private conservatories are gonna be hit very hard.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2020, 01:11:08 PM »
I'm sorry a bunch of you are dealing with this in your profession.  I'm hesitant to ask a question here about thoughts on the next few years of higher ed that my soon to be high school Senior is asking me. I don't want to be insensitive but you all seem way more tuned into the "real world" so I figured I'd ask (my state university isn't saying much at all).  Tell me to screw off if you like or start another thread.

Let's assume this fall turns into a sh*tshow because college students probably won't social distance leading to big out breaks.  Let's then assume a bunch of parents pull their kids for the spring to wait out a vaccine. Let's also assume they don't have lucrative international students this year.  Do most universities you all work for have cash buffers to withstand a one year shock like that?  Could one year cause irreparable damage to a University?  Would tuition need to increase greatly in 2021/2022 school year to make up for this?

My senior is freaking out and I will be committing 6 figures to her education and I really don't know where this is all heading.  She is bummed we had to cancel all of our college visits but it could be worse.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2020, 01:24:45 PM »
GoCubsGo.

No most universities don't have the cash reserves to withstand a huge drop in tuition revenue. Many state schools are required to spend out their budget every year making it essentially impossible to build up reserves. Some schools have eye popping endowments, but that vast majority of that money is legally restricted by the original donor to 1) be used only for certain purposes and 2) endowed so that the university is only allowed spend the earnings but not the principal.

That said, no I don't foresee any path where tuition spikes in the 2021/2022 academic year. Depending on how bad the budget shortfall is, many universities will furlough faculty and staff and they may even close specific programs. But I'd be much more worried about a declining quality of education in '21/22 with fewer professors teaching more courses while being paid for fewer hours per year + less infrastructure and support for students, than I would a big jump in tuition.

TL;DR, Don't worry about paying more for the same experience, but it's fair to worry abut paying the same for a less-good experience.

nereo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2020, 01:33:40 PM »

Let's assume this fall turns into a sh*tshow because college students probably won't social distance leading to big out breaks.  Let's then assume a bunch of parents pull their kids for the spring to wait out a vaccine. Let's also assume they don't have lucrative international students this year.  Do most universities you all work for have cash buffers to withstand a one year shock like that?  Could one year cause irreparable damage to a University?  Would tuition need to increase greatly in 2021/2022 school year to make up for this?


Honestly, there's so much variance between how different systems are funded, how much they have in endowment, and how much of their budget they can cut that there isn't going to be a standard answer.

Schools with large endowments and/or strong alumni support will likely be ok.  Schools that rely heavily on tuition and/or external revenue such as football could have a very rough time.  R1 research institutions bring in a sizable share of their revenue from research grants, which - through the way grant cycles work won't be impacted this fall but could be deeply impacted in 2021 and beyond should there be a large retreat from state and federal grants as a result of the recession, as we saw after the great recession.  And of course there's public/private, and how those are incorporated.  Some public university systems are actually written into the state's constituion and so "cannot fail" (so to speak).  Others get a sizable chunk of their revenue from the state coffers. 

My own current state system recieves just over 30% of their operating expenses directly from the state, 59% from tuition, and the rest from "other", with an almost non-existent endowment (relative to our expenditures).  We are going to be hurting.  Harvard, IIRC, has an endowment large enough that it could continue to operate with absolutely no revenue for almost a decade, and that's not including their extensive non-campus real-estate holdings which could (in theory) be sold off.

As maizeman indicates, this isn't uncharted territory and most institutions have plans for budget triage which includes furloughs, canceling classes/activities etc.  My university is already well into it's playbook. For obvious reasons this impacts the students, though we do what we can to still provide a quality experience.  As one example, our field course spends its 3 weeks in a field station in another country is perhaps the greatest course an undergraduate who wants to become a field biologist can take -- but this year it's no travel and we are relying overwhelmingly on videos and mock data-sets.  It isn't even close to being the enriching experience, nad we aren't even pretending it is.

tl;dr - the range of distress universities are in right now varies from "oh this is going to hurt a little bit" to "we are absolutely screwed if we can't charge full tuition in September".  Delving into prospective institution's financials might give you some insight as to where on this spectrum a given university lies right now.

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2020, 01:50:54 PM »
R1 research institutions bring in a sizable share of their revenue from research grants, which - through the way grant cycles work won't be impacted this fall but could be deeply impacted in 2021 and beyond should there be a large retreat from state and federal grants as a result of the recession, as we saw after the great recession.  And of course there's public/private, and how those are incorporated.  Some public university systems are actually written into the state's constituion and so "cannot fail" (so to speak).  Others get a sizable chunk of their revenue from the state coffers. 

My own current state system recieves just over 30% of their operating expenses directly from the state, 59% from tuition, and the rest from "other", with an almost non-existent endowment (relative to our expenditures).  We are going to be hurting.

One thing to be careful about when looking at what proportion of the overall budget is accounted for by federal grants at R1 institutions is that the majority of that money is being spent to do specific research and hire people dedicated specifically to doing that research. If I get a half million dollar grant to work on my area of expertise, that's another $500,000 in the university coffers but about an extra $350,000 in new spending required to complete the grant (hire a postdoc, pay undergrads, etc). That money cannot be redirected to support the university's teaching mission. It is only the difference between the $500k and the $350k (the indirect cost) which is theoretically redeploy able to cover budget shortfalls.

The big x-factor you touch on is what is going to happen to state aid for public schools once legislatures start meeting and passing new budgets. State budgets are really hurting right now, and if the great recession is any guide, support for state schools is a lot easier to cut politically in hard times than most of the other big line items in the state budget. Back in the great recession, universities were cushioned somewhat by growth in enrollment (people who couldn't find work because the economy was a mess decided to get a new degree or a credential instead). But there were still lots of budget cuts and furloughs and even, in the UC system, paying faculty with IOUs.

nereo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2020, 01:59:13 PM »
R1 research institutions bring in a sizable share of their revenue from research grants, which - through the way grant cycles work won't be impacted this fall but could be deeply impacted in 2021 and beyond should there be a large retreat from state and federal grants as a result of the recession, as we saw after the great recession.  And of course there's public/private, and how those are incorporated.  Some public university systems are actually written into the state's constituion and so "cannot fail" (so to speak).  Others get a sizable chunk of their revenue from the state coffers. 

My own current state system recieves just over 30% of their operating expenses directly from the state, 59% from tuition, and the rest from "other", with an almost non-existent endowment (relative to our expenditures).  We are going to be hurting.

One thing to be careful about when looking at what proportion of the overall budget is accounted for by federal grants at R1 institutions is that the majority of that money is being spent to do specific research and hire people dedicated specifically to doing that research. If I get a half million dollar grant to work on my area of expertise, that's another $500,000 in the university coffers but about an extra $350,000 in new spending required to complete the grant (hire a postdoc, pay undergrads, etc). That money cannot be redirected to support the university's teaching mission. It is only the difference between the $500k and the $350k (the indirect cost) which is theoretically redeploy able to cover budget shortfalls.

The big x-factor you touch on is what is going to happen to state aid for public schools once legislatures start meeting and passing new budgets. State budgets are really hurting right now, and if the great recession is any guide, support for state schools is a lot easier to cut politically in hard times than most of the other big line items in the state budget. Back in the great recession, universities were cushioned somewhat by growth in enrollment (people who couldn't find work because the economy was a mess decided to get a new degree or a credential instead). But there were still lots of budget cuts and furloughs and even, in the UC system, paying faculty with IOUs.

Good points.  Yes, I remember those days well - I wasn't in the UC system, but in the Cal State system.  We had "Furlough Fridays" which our director euphamistically said was: "a 20% reduction in your pay but a 50% increase in your weekend!"  It sucked though, as the total amount of work didn't go down, and everyone pretty much worked 40+ hours in 4 days but got paid for 32.

a bit OT, but @maizeman you're going to choke when you read this:  Our grant overhead is 62%. God how I dream of having a 30% overhead so a $500k grant would leave us with $350 to do actual science with.  My previous grant (small by comparison) was $149k.  I was able to spend just $52k after the institution took its cut.  That, in a nutshell, is what caused me to forego salary and wind up in the current 'underemployed-yet-working-hard' state I'm currently in.

Car Jack

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2020, 02:08:24 PM »

From an outsiders perspective, I would think most of the bitching about online classes is the perceived value. If you are paying $10ks every semester for something you could get free from Coursera, you might be a little upset. Eventually, there will be better integration with projects but right now it seems haphazardly converted to online classes with no extra value-add you normally get with networking, etc.

It can be far more than that for some students.  DS was in his freshman year at community college, struggling in some courses but with teaching assistants and especially study groups, he was able to keep up.  Following spring break, the school went 100% online.  That completely tanked him.  Failed 50% of his courses.  One course, he had been doing very well (between a B and an A) and got a D for the semester.  Received an A in his favorite course where he was really invested, building a robot from nothing to navigate a maze.

For the fall, if it's online, he won't be going.  He may not anyways and is looking into HVAC, electrical and welding schools nearby and looking for a job. 

I won't say that every student is like this.  My older son just graduated an expensive private engineering school.  His last semester was mainly writing up his senior project which looks like a text book in engineering.  He does very well with online learning and has for years used online courses, including courses he was taking in person, which were always video'd and made available to watch later.  So for him, if he were going back in the fall, he'd be fine with 100% online.

It depends on the student.

So here's my question.  Are the college presidents, making well over a million dollars a year taking any cut?  (I know my son's college is over a million)  I'll guess no.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2020, 02:08:49 PM »
Thanks to the both of you, that is great insight.   My state (Illinois) is a train wreck financially so I can imagine some of that funding will be impacted as we were in bad shape to begin with.  My daughter is looking mostly out of state (some big state schools like Michigan, Wisconsin, UNC) some private schools with endowments.  I may read up on any info those states are putting out about funding as that might give me a preview of next year and maybe what to expect. 

I saw an interview with the head of the University of Michigan and I think he said there could be a billion? dollar shortfall.  Lack of football definitely won't help. @nereo- that change to your field course is exactly the type of stuff I'm afraid of (especially at $55-$70K a year tuition).

I can imagine the value proposition will get much more scrutiny if there are massive shifts to online....

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2020, 02:17:57 PM »
a bit OT, but @maizeman you're going to choke when you read this:  Our grant overhead is 62%. God how I dream of having a 30% overhead so a $500k grant would leave us with $350 to do actual science with.  My previous grant (small by comparison) was $149k.  I was able to spend just $52k after the institution took its cut.  That, in a nutshell, is what caused me to forego salary and wind up in the current 'underemployed-yet-working-hard' state I'm currently in.

Yikes! Are you back in the USA now? I remember at one point you were up in Canada and I know absolutely zero about how funding and indirect works up there.

The numbers I gave were a rough approximation for 50% overhead that way it is calculated at the agencies I go to for funding. I come up with my budget to do the work (supplies, salary, travel, paying outside service provided) add in necessary things like budgets for fringe benefits for employees, covering tuition for graduate students who will be supported on the grant, and get my total direct costs. Then the university multiplies my direct costs by their indirect rate to get their own cut,* and the two are added together to get the budget that gets submitted to the funding agency.

I'm a lot better off than I could be. Folks at Cold Spring Harbor have a 92% indirect cost rate (so almost half of their budget goes to the institution and half is left over to pay benefits/salaries/supplies). I think places like Salk and Scripps may be over 100% today, but I don't have any good connections left at either of those places to let me know.

Regardless of all that, a $149k grant that only gave you $52k in direct costs sounds particularly brutal, as does continuing to research when you don't have the funding to pay yourself. I'm really sorry.

*In principle for things like providing me and folks in my research group with offices to work in, paying for utilities, doing all the accounting that tells the federal government how the money they sent was spent, etc.

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2020, 02:53:07 PM »
So here's my question.  Are the college presidents, making well over a million dollars a year taking any cut?  (I know my son's college is over a million)  I'll guess no.

At the places I'm aware of, yes they are. Arizona's president took a 20% salary cut. At Michigan State the president took a 10% pay cut. Wisconsin 15%. Georgia 10%.

I realize this probably doesn't change your views on inflated pay for university administrators (it doesn't change mine). But it's a specific negative prediction about people's behavior that didn't come to pass, which is nice. Means people aren't quite as bad (or quite as shameless) as predicted.

fuzzy math

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2020, 04:20:21 PM »
2 data points here:

- my neighbors have quadruplets who are headed to college in the fall. One already canceled going to a 4 yr university in favor of community college because of the fear of getting kicked out of the dorms and sent home mid semester.

- saw the CEO of my hospital in the lobby today without a mask. Wish I could have taken his picture for future use if they start punishing the rest of us worker bees.

nereo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2020, 06:08:28 PM »
Thanks to the both of you, that is great insight.   My state (Illinois) is a train wreck financially so I can imagine some of that funding will be impacted as we were in bad shape to begin with.  My daughter is looking mostly out of state (some big state schools like Michigan, Wisconsin, UNC) some private schools with endowments.  I may read up on any info those states are putting out about funding as that might give me a preview of next year and maybe what to expect. 

I saw an interview with the head of the University of Michigan and I think he said there could be a billion? dollar shortfall.  Lack of football definitely won't help. @nereo- that change to your field course is exactly the type of stuff I'm afraid of (especially at $55-$70K a year tuition).

I can imagine the value proposition will get much more scrutiny if there are massive shifts to online....

Personal opinion here, but I think incoming first-years will not have it as bad as upperclassmen that are taking (or planned to take) advanced coursework.  For better or worse, at most universities a student’s first year is GenEd and intro classes which are pretty instruction-driven.  That doesn’t mean they are bad (most of them are good... or at least necessary), but the emergency transition to make them online-only was far less disruptive because for the most part the lectures had been written, the lectures already digitized (e.g. PowerPoint and videos) and the reading was on the students’ own time anyway.  So it wasn’t a huge shift to have them either zoom in or watch pre-recorded lectures.
The big changes (again, IMO) were with the seminar-type classes, field course and labs which require in-person participation in a setting you can’t get online from your bedroom.  And those classes are primarily Juniors and Seniors, with a advanced sophomores tossed in.

My biggest concern with incoming students (beside how they’ll miss much of the social aspect which *is* actually important) is that ones that struggle might not get as much attention as early on.  But for students who know how to learn independently, they should be ok for a while.  I just pray that we’re able to return to somewhat normal by Spring 2021 (or Fall at the latest).

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2020, 06:17:10 PM »
Plug here for having your kids do research as an undergrad.

Even with most in person lab classes shut down, I know plenty of labs that are still looking to hire undergraduate research assistants. Kids get paid, learn a lot both about a specific subject but also about the basics of what holding down a job and working in team based settings entails, and get more a lot one on one interaction with professors/postdocs/grad students than they otherwise would. It's one of the big opportunities a research university offers, even in the middle of COVID, that isn't part of purely online education.

I have undergrads working in my research group over the summer, some doing fieldwork, some on the computer* and my weekly one-on-ones with each of them -- by zoom -- are highlights of my workdays.

*So both work that doesn't require much if any in person contact with other people.

nereo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2020, 06:35:35 AM »
Plug here for having your kids do research as an undergrad.

Even with most in person lab classes shut down, I know plenty of labs that are still looking to hire undergraduate research assistants. Kids get paid, learn a lot both about a specific subject but also about the basics of what holding down a job and working in team based settings entails, and get more a lot one on one interaction with professors/postdocs/grad students than they otherwise would. It's one of the big opportunities a research university offers, even in the middle of COVID, that isn't part of purely online education.

I have undergrads working in my research group over the summer, some doing fieldwork, some on the computer* and my weekly one-on-ones with each of them -- by zoom -- are highlights of my workdays.

*So both work that doesn't require much if any in person contact with other people.

Absolutely.  If there is one thing I could change about my academic trajectory by going back in time, it would be to tell my undergraduate self to start interning in a lab I found interesting early on. 

As an 18/19/20 year old no one had told me this, and I just didn't get it.  As in highschool I kept up a high GPA and had a challenging curriculum, but the students that really accelerated were the ones who were "associated" with some lab.  This is by far the easiest way of getting into graduate school.  Even if you choose not to stay with that lab and change universities, Profs like to hire "known candidates" and a personal recommendation to another Prof is worth far more than a straight A GPA. 

As a result of finishing my undergraduate work without ever really working for another professor it took me two tries and two years to get into graduate school (my masters) despite graduating with honors.  Once I got into graduate school my Master's advisor basically made a phone call and I was *in* for my PhD, nad the process repeated itself for my first PostDoc. 

It's not just about advancing your career either.  Once I started hiring assistants and sitting on the panel to choose new graduate students I quickly realized that the kids who had just done coursework but no lab-internships were often very bright but lacked the skills necessary to succeed as a semi-independent graduate student.  They typically struggled for a year or two.  Students who had spent 2+ years working as a lacky in a lab "hit the ground running" and finished faster, even when their grades were a mixture of Bs and As rather than the straight-A students with no experience.

And to bring it back to the topic on hand - regardless of what happens in HigherEd the next couple of years a key skill for your daughter is to learn how to learn semi-autonomously.  I can't tell you how many of my students struggle because they don't fathom (at first) that "manditory reading" means exactly that, and I might ask questions on exams from the reading that I only briefly covered in lecture (because there's not enough lecture time, and because they are supposed to be learning how to learn independently).  Online coursework, independent reading, **supplemental reading**, keeping a detailed lab notebook and relating it back to lecture... those are all important

rudged

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2020, 07:08:18 AM »
Our state university seems to be betting the farm on an early retirement incentive (one year of salary) offered to faculty who are 55+ and have 10+ years of service. When they first announced it, they suggested they were anticipating 150 faculty to take them up on it. We've been given until the end of this month to decide. A workshop to answer questions about retirement held about a week ago had only 30 people in attendance. This is a really bad sign.

Speaking for myself (57 years old) I have no intention of taking them up on the offer. I went into academia in large part because of the flexibility faculty have in setting their own research and teaching agendas and the fact I would be allowed to work as long as I could continue to contribute. Working from home has given me insights into what retired life would be like in the age of corona virus. A major reason why many retire is that would allow them to travel more. Good luck with that. I think we all also factor in our ability to return to the work force when deciding to retire. The possibility of being rehired as an academic at this time is all but non-existent.

The real tragedy is going to be the fate of our younger faculty. At a time when they should be focused on their research they now have to focus on the very real possibility that (at our union shop) they will be laid off (last hired, first fired).

maizefolk

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2020, 08:10:14 AM »
Yikes! How does the union contract interact with the normal protections of tenure? I agree, seems crazy to think many folks will take early retirement right now, although not as crazy as it did in the spring when everyone’s retirement accounts were also down 30+%. We had an early retirement incentive plan for this past school year. Before the virus hit the uptake was so-so at best and once it did people were doing their best to find ways to back out if they could.

We are nonunionized so my guess is we will see furloughs long before layoffs. Tenure protections are quite strong so if it comes to the point of having to reduce the number of profs, not just furlough, I believe their only option is to pick specific departments/majors and close those down. At which point the professors in that program are also let go.

It may be selfish but I very much prefer our system. I suspect anyone who loses a professor position right now is quite unlikely to be able to find a new one now, and then also unlikely to find one later once they have a gap in their CV. So I’d rather everyone absorb a furlough if the cuts are modest, and take an equal risk of job loss with everyone else if they are more substantial, rather than be specifically targeted for being younger (30s) and having less seniority.

StarBright

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2020, 08:21:26 AM »
I just graduated music school. All of my friends are probably taking a gap year/ dropping out because it would be a huge waste to pay for music school and not be able to play with others or perform. Private conservatories are gonna be hit very hard.

+1 - Voice, wind and brass programs are dead in the water until there is a vaccine.

I am sorry that you are graduating into this - signed, former opera singer who dropped out of the game during the last recession :)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 08:32:06 AM by StarBright »

StarBright

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2020, 08:31:24 AM »
. . .snip

The real tragedy is going to be the fate of our younger faculty. At a time when they should be focused on their research they now have to focus on the very real possibility that (at our union shop) they will be laid off (last hired, first fired).

^ This is my nightmare. The last recession pushed me and my husband into new career paths (his new career being academia). He has been in his TT job for one year. He has multiple colleagues in their 60s and 70s who have no interest in retiring.

I think he'll be okay but I am ready for the ground to stop moving beneath our feet. The thought of having to make another career change as we approach our 40s is freakin' me out.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 12:58:24 PM by StarBright »

nereo

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2020, 08:44:20 AM »
. . .snip

The real tragedy is going to be the fate of our younger faculty. At a time when they should be focused on their research they now have to focus on the very real possibility that (at our union shop) they will be laid off (last hired, first fired).

^ This is my nightmare. The last recession pushed me and my husband into new career paths (his new career being academia). He has been in his TT job for one year. He has multiple colleagues in their 60s and 70s who have no interest in retiring.


Mine too.  I am an early career scientist / adjunct trying to break into the TT academia world (or at the cvery least find a position that offers some degree of security and/or benfits and/or decent pay.  I'm not at all optimistic about how this will impact my entire career path going forward.  As maizeman said, if I go long enough my gap in higher education might kill any chance I have to obtain professor status.


Cassie

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2020, 11:57:48 AM »
I teach a online college class and while there are some benefits for students I think being in a classroom where discussion takes place is so valuable. Using a discussion board is definitely not the same. I retired from the state and whenever they were in a bind they instituted furloughs because it didn’t affect pensions.  Our university is also talking about a hybrid approach for fall. I got a second master’s degree at 40 because there weren’t any opportunities in my first.

rudged

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2020, 11:58:59 AM »
Yikes! How does the union contract interact with the normal protections of tenure?  [stuff deleted]

Faculty generally start out as assistant professors without tenure, but you are correct in pointing out that occasionally senior faculty are hired with tenure. At our school the latter has been very rare - the administration prefers to hire at a higher rank without tenure so that the individual has time to prove themselves at the new institution.
 
I don't want to scare anyone, but my understanding is that the administration can, owing to dire financial circumstances, completely shut down an entire unit, which would include all faculty within it, regardless of rank or years of service. In the past when this has happened, they've always tried to relocate orphaned faculty into other units. But given the extreme circumstances the university is dealing with, I can see how they might not be able to do this in the present working environment.

One nice feature about our unionized situation is that they have to give you a year's notice of the lay off, and if you are eligible for normal retirement during that year, you can simply choose to retire instead of being laid off, and as such retain retirement benefits you would have otherwise lost.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 12:01:02 PM by rudged »

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2020, 12:00:35 PM »
If dh’s university offered a buyout, we’d be out of here tomorrow. It’s like cocktails on the deck of the Titanic around here.

Ladychips

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2020, 01:02:46 PM »
Our state university seems to be betting the farm on an early retirement incentive (one year of salary) offered to faculty who are 55+ and have 10+ years of service.

I would cry tears of joy and probably hyperventilate if my school did this.  And I wouldn't even wait for the second, sweeter offer used to get more people.  I'm signing on the dotted line before they stop speaking.  But that's just because I'm retiring next year no matter what. I'd love to retire with an extra year of salary that I didn't have to work for.  What a blessing that would be!

Rural

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2020, 01:29:34 PM »

 Early last week, ours came in with an early retirement offer. Age 60 or 25 years in, and only three months salary for the buyout. I don't imagine they'll get a single taker.


Late this week they announced a second round of layoffs.

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2020, 04:48:03 PM »
Yeah, haha to that. I’m pretty sure that they can’t make dh actually teach in person, so...

Pigeon

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2020, 07:01:03 PM »
Someone sent me this article right after I listened to a Zoom town hall meeting from my institution's administration. It was spot on.
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-message-from-your-universitys-vice-president-for-magical-thinking

LaineyAZ

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2020, 01:43:39 PM »
Got second-hand info from a relative that a TIAA worker told her that since the crisis, universities are not funding teachers' pensions.
Just mentioning that for what it's worth for all of those who are deciding to hang in their for their pensions - please double-check that the monies you are owed are actually there before you choose that path.

rudged

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2020, 12:10:42 PM »
Got second-hand info from a relative that a TIAA worker told her that since the crisis, universities are not funding teachers' pensions.
Just mentioning that for what it's worth for all of those who are deciding to hang in their for their pensions - please double-check that the monies you are owed are actually there before you choose that path.

In the US universities typically don't have defined pension plans at all. Employees set up retirement accounts with firms like TIAA, to which both the employer and employee contribute. This money is completely separate and independent from the universities accounts - if the university goes bankrupt, the personal retirement accounts won't be affected. Whether universities are actually resorting to reducing their contributions to these accounts to address predicted shortfalls in revenue depends upon the  institution.

The faculty through our union are actually trying to get our university to consider reducing its contributions to our faculty accounts in the hope this would reduce the need to engage in faculty lay offs.

Spiffy

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2020, 12:35:51 PM »
Our employer contributions have been reduced by 2% at my private university. Also, hiring freeze, no yearly raises, and planned staff reductions. But summer enrollment was huge and we got paid more than ever before to teach summer sessions.

Cranky

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Re: Higher ed layoffs?
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2020, 02:09:06 PM »
Dh’s university offers a choice between the state teachers pension plan and TIAA. Thus far they have continued to pay their share according to contract but goodness knows what the new contract will bring. Nothing has been revealed except that “it will be terrible” to no one’s surprise.

Meanwhile, because dh stepped down as chair because the biology department as such has disappeared, he won’t get paid for 6 weeks. Oddly, I knew that was the case and he didn’t. Of course, we still have to pay our chunk of the health insurance...