Post by: Montecarlo on October 24, 2019, 04:26:16 AM
Curious to other upper middle class members who have started a family - what advice do you have? I want to have a comfortable life, but I don't want my children to grow up thinking things like eating out, big SUVs, lawn services, etc are just normal parts of life. They should learn how to be industrious, productive members of society
Post by: Cranky on October 24, 2019, 07:41:03 AM
OTOH, not eating out is not really the same as being an industrious and productive member of society.
Post by: Jon Bon on October 24, 2019, 07:58:25 AM
- When they are small teach them about what money is, its good to build their math skills with it. Have them realize that money is in fact a finite resource even though you use the credit card for everything. I sometimes carry cash and have kids pay the bill for me.
- Talk to them about things that YOU want - For me its a truck, but I tell my kids well we could buy the truck but then we could not afford to visit grandma as much. So they understand about the trade off.
- Give them an allowance - teaches savings and frugality. My son wanted some stupid toy and I told him it would be 8 weeks allowance, he no longer wanted it.
- Consumption/Investment - currently working on this one with them so they know the difference.
- Jobs - The need to have them. And have them young. REAL jobs, not babysitting/lawn mowing for your equally rich friends. Have them work at McDonald where they have to do real work, deal with real people, and earn their market rate.
Its really easy to form a bubble around your kid when it comes to money. Half PTF and see what others have to say.
Post by: GizmoTX on October 24, 2019, 08:25:04 AM
I found this book useful: Silver Spoon Kids, by Ellen Gallo.
Newer books that I have not read but look interesting:
Raising Grateful Kids in an Entitled World
The Opposite of Spoiled
Kids, Wealth, and Consequences
Post by: Laura33 on October 24, 2019, 09:51:28 AM
- Figure out how and when you're going to say no. I grew up hearing "we can't afford it," and that's what I parroted to my daughter -- until the day when I realized that was a flat-out lie. Of course we can afford it; I'm just not going to buy it. So I started saying "that's now how I choose to spend my money" (or just "no," of course -- the longer bit was when she pushed for an explanation). That led to a lot of conversations over time about how we made plenty of money, but we were saving so we wouldn't always have to work, and saving to put her through college, and that if we bought all of the "stuff" we thought looked cool, we wouldn't have the money for those other priorities.
- Give your kids the skills they need. I still taught my daughter how to find the unit price at the grocery store, even though I don't need to buy the cheapest version anymore if I don't want to. We gave her an allowance that was enough to cover some things but not everything -- e.g., when she discovered the school cafeteria, we gave her enough to cover lunch once or twice a week, but not all five days, so she could learn to choose how much she valued that vs. other uses of her money (she quickly learned that the cafeteria was not worth it!).
- Show them your own decisionmaking process. When I was growing up, I did the grocery shopping with my mom with my school calculator, so I could make sure we didn't go over our Food Stamps. My daughter, OTOH, grew up watching me throw stuff in the basket and whip out the magic plastic card to pay. Even worse, she saw the one time I said yes to a treat for myself, and she didn't see the hundred other times I saw something I wanted and told myself no. So I worked to make that more overt. I started saying those idle thoughts out loud ("oooh, that chocolate bar looks delicious, but I don't need it"). I started talking about how the CC works and how I send them money every month from what I earn to pay it off. Etc.
- Don't enforce artificial poverty/get over your own prejudices. I struggled with this one, because being poor was the only way I knew not to grow up selfish and entitled. But then I realized how insulting that was to my husband, who grew up very UMC, went to an expensive college courtesy of the Bank of Dad, and yet is one of the least spoiled, hardest-working people I've ever met. And I remembered all the times being the poor kid got me bullied and made me feel embarrassed. So I worked to find a happy medium -- enough "popular" or "consumer" stuff to provide my kid sufficient protective coloration, so she didn't feel weird or different, but not a free fountain of cash for whatever she wanted.
Along those lines, it helps tremendously to live in a neighborhood that is economically well below our own financial situation -- it's a perfectly lovely neighborhood, but people drive Hondas and Toyotas instead of Lexuses, the kids don't expect $2K birthday bashes or a new BMW on their 16th birthday, etc. That way we can provide sufficient "stuff" for my kids to blend in -- a phone, participating in sports and clubs and such, clothes from Kohl's and Target, vehicle access, etc. -- without feeling the peer pressure to upgrade to more ridiculously expensive versions.
Post by: habanero on October 24, 2019, 10:41:29 AM
As for hiring services, its so expensive to hire someone to do menial tasks here that the standard is, luckily, do insource a lot.
They are not old enough to understand money and numbers very well. At some point they will understand that we are quite wealthy. Hopefully they have developed good habits by then.
Post by: AMandM on October 24, 2019, 01:15:57 PM
The antidote to entitlement, I think, is gratitude. I have made a point of expressing my gratitude out loud over the years for my kids to hear--gratitude for little things and big: for our financial stability and security, for our city's infrastructure, for our country's political and religious freedom, for the helpfulness of family members, etc. When my kids whine about unfairness I am merciless. My standard answer is, "You're right, it's not fair. If things were fair, you'd have way less to eat, a much smaller place to live, worse schooling, ...."
Along those lines, it helps tremendously to live in a neighborhood that is economically well below our own financial situation -- it's a perfectly lovely neighborhood, but people drive Hondas and Toyotas instead of Lexuses, the kids don't expect $2K birthday bashes or a new BMW on their 16th birthday, etc. That way we can provide sufficient "stuff" for my kids to blend in -- a phone, participating in sports and clubs and such, clothes from Kohl's and Target, vehicle access, etc. -- without feeling the peer pressure to upgrade to more ridiculously expensive versions.
This is huge. Much of what your children will consider "normal" is what is common among their friends.
Post by: Here4theGB on October 24, 2019, 01:35:15 PM
I don't come from money, but grew up around an awful lot of it. Kids at my HS got Porsches for their 16th bday and stuff like that. The common theme I found in all of them that were douches? Parents never around to teach them anything. Always at work, or on travel, raised by the help, etc......
Post by: BabyShark on October 24, 2019, 01:41:46 PM
. . . When my kids whine about unfairness I am merciless. My standard answer is, "You're right, it's not fair. If things were fair, you'd have way less to eat, a much smaller place to live, worse schooling, ...."
Ooo I love this, going to try and remember it.
Post by: honeybbq on October 25, 2019, 11:08:22 AM
I live in Seattle where we have a huge homeless/drug problem; this allows us many opportunities to have discussions about how much we have compared to some. Also their school makes cookies for the homeless and has clothing drives for a women and children's shelter. So I think there's a lot of empathy being taught, so we are lucky.
Some things I've done:
- I gave an allowance from an early age. Chores are expected of kiddo but not directly tied to allowance (we all contribute). Chances to make 'extra' money are given (yard work, etc). We have not done the 3 bucket approach (save, spend, donate) because my kid is naturally (?) really thrifty and we don't need to force her to save.
- I use every opportunity to instill thrifty values.
"Let's buy this item at the grocery store, it's on sale."
"Can you help me click some grocery coupons in this app?"
"Mommy drives an old car because it still works just fine. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles but that's fine with me, it gets us places."
"No honey, we're not going out to eat because we have plenty of food at home we've already bought."
"We're going to buy used clothing because it's cheaper and better for the earth to reuse what someone else doesn't want"
"We don't need all this stuff grandma got us, let's donate it to the shelter so kids who have nothing can use it."
- We discuss finances relatively openly. When she asks questions (how much does that cost?) we answer. We discuss that we have a very nice house and we don't have to worry about money because we work hard and saved a lot of money. We talk about college savings, saving up to buy a house, etc. She has asked me how much I make and I won't answer directly. I do say that I am well paid and we make more than most so that we can have a nice house and have enough money to do plenty of things. I am reluctant to give a number because kids talk and I don't want the number to spread to others. But I do try and put it in perspective for her.
- As said below, I never say we can't afford it. I say I am going to save my money for something else because I don't NEED it. (or we can do it at home, or the park is free, etc etc).
- We do a lot of cheap/thrifty things. We go to the library rather than buying books and I explain why. We go for a bike ride or to the park. We go hiking. (Free, exercise, outdoors)
Good luck!
Post by: habanero on October 25, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
As long as kids are young they don't really care, but parents seem to care a lot. Probably to maintain some image in social circles or social media. I don't know what it is. We have, as mentioned above, kept holidays really simple for years but the kids have fun and talk about it years later. Its much more memorable to have fished your own fish for the first time than jumping into a swimming pool at some resort for the 20th time. Kids also like repetition and going to a place they know. We go to family cabins by the sea and in the mountains - it's simple life, there is no option to spend any money there, nothing to buy, no entertainment, but they really look forward to it and want to go again and again. This alone can make a 2nd home somewhere a decent option when having kids despite the cost of owning it - it can be a destination for low-cost holidays and/or weekend escapes for years to come. Especially if living in a city - it's nice to get away now and then.
I buy index funds for the kids, but it's in my name and they don't know about it - nor will they until they are grown-ups and have learnt how to handle money. They both have their savings accounts where grandparents etc can put money in and at some point I probably will open some account with a small regular amount going in to which a payment card can be linked so they learn to handle small amounts, learn the concept of spending now vs later and learn that if I buy this now I cannot but that later etc. The standard here is debit cards so when the account is empty, the card doesn't work anymore.
We never say "we cannot afford this or that" because that will be outright lying. But we say stuff like "yes, but it's expensive". "But we did <whatever> last week", "we wait until it's on sale", "we buy that 2nd hand". "But we already have this or that". "We buy this instead of that because it's pretty much the same thing and much cheaper".
Post by: TVRodriguez on October 25, 2019, 12:06:57 PM
We buy him clothes at Goodwill (we buy clothes for all of us there) as well as occasionally at Target or Macy's, and he gets hand-me-downs from his bigger friends and cousins. Our kids go to public school and are not with peers whose parents are particularly spendy, either. And he does do his own laundry and takes out the house garbage and cleans the pool sometimes (not for money--allowance is separate from chores). So they're not completely spoiled.
But our oldest is a miser with his own money. He got sick and stayed home from school and asked me to buy him the next book in a series he is reading. I told him to look it up on the library website or on Amazon if he wanted to buy it himself. He told me that I should buy it for him because, after all, it's a book, which is good for him. Btw, he has a Microsoft Surface for schoolwork and a Motorola cellphone, so he is not lacking in electronics. He bought himself an Xbox after saving up for it, so he knows how to do that when he wants.
I guess I'm saying that it's easy to say "we'll just do everything right and our kids will not have those awful 'gimmes' and 'wants' that spoiled kids have," but in practice it's not always so easy.
Post by: Laura33 on October 25, 2019, 12:29:25 PM
I guess I'm saying that it's easy to say "we'll just do everything right and our kids will not have those awful 'gimmes' and 'wants' that spoiled kids have," but in practice it's not always so easy.
I think this is really important. Kids are going to ask, to push the boundaries; that's their job. Even the best kid is going to be a complete entitled twit on occasion, because they are not grown-ups and have not learned (1) to expand their concerns beyond their own self and (2) to bite their tongue at times for strategic/political reasons. So if you set your standard as "my kid will never act like an entitled twit," you are doomed to failure. Because kids.
My goal is to raise an adult who is not a spoiled, entitled twit. And despite how utterly hopeless that looked a few years ago, I think I may actually have accomplished it. Fingers crossed.
Post by: Krolik on October 25, 2019, 12:33:36 PM
She also does chores but doesn't get money for it. I want her to understand that she also need to help out around the house.
We live in rather upper middle class neighborhood and she definitely notices things other kids have that we choose not to buy. I am surprised how many kids her age or even younger have their own iphones and she keeps asking for one. When she asks why why are not getting it for her the answer is 'you don't need it yet'. She will probably get it when she starts middle school.
I also don't tell her that we can't afford things which is not true. Instead I tell her that we choose to spend money on things that are more important/necessary or will bring us more joy (like going skiing which we all love, nice summer vacation, etc).
There is still a lot of whining about stuff but sometimes she surprises me and it seems that some of the things we tell her about money and making choices stick with her.
Best thing to do is to teach them by setting an example and not worry too much about what other people are doing or have.
Good luck :-)
Post by: habanero on October 25, 2019, 12:38:25 PM
I guess I'm saying that it's easy to say "we'll just do everything right and our kids will not have those awful 'gimmes' and 'wants' that spoiled kids have," but in practice it's not always so easy.
Yes, the main problem is other kids - or rather the parents of other kids. Kids start comparing cell phones and what not at a dangerously early age. Someone in the class gets a Playstation or whatever. Other families go here or there on holiday.
Over here there now seems to be a meaningful change in at least parts of society of consuming less, spending less, reusing stuff, buying 2nd hand, travelling less by plane etc. It's the environmental angle that's driving it but the end result is the same. It's gonna be interesting to see how it develops, but it has in my opinion moved clearly past the point where it is an outlier - so it's getting significantly more socially accepted to not be a consuma sucka. My girlfriend jokingly says in a few years we will be the most trendy folks in the community as we have been doing this stuff for a few years already.
Post by: JGS1980 on October 25, 2019, 02:09:29 PM
I have multiple children, and they all approach "wants and needs" differently, despite being raised completely the same with the same rules. How much of being a Saver or a Spender is just genetic/emotional?
I suspect kids (much like adults) that have less emotional control/impulse control will naturally have more trouble avoiding the quick fix of enjoyment via new toy or new clothing item. It's really hard to teach impulse control, but if you are patient I think the little cavemen will pick up on it eventually.
Agree with above poster who says that whatever the kids are used to around them is "normal". I try to avoid my kids hanging out with folks who are a little too into modern American consumerism, as I feel that puts a lot of pressure on the young kids.
Post by: formerlydivorcedmom on October 25, 2019, 03:35:01 PM
- Figure out how and when you're going to say no. I grew up hearing "we can't afford it," and that's what I parroted to my daughter -- until the day when I realized that was a flat-out lie. Of course we can afford it; I'm just not going to buy it. So I started saying "that's now how I choose to spend my money" (or just "no," of course -- the longer bit was when she pushed for an explanation). That led to a lot of conversations over time about how we made plenty of money, but we were saving so we wouldn't always have to work, and saving to put her through college, and that if we bought all of the "stuff" we thought looked cool, we wouldn't have the money for those other priorities.I made the mistake of using "we can't afford that"...until one day I found my then-12-year-old sobbing in her bed. That day I had bought her a new pair of classes, a new bedroom set, a new mattress, and we found out she needed braces. She thought we were going to starve - or even potentially lose our house - because I spent so much money on her. Now I use "that isn't on my priority list".
We deliberately live in the poorest area of our suburb. We have a nice new house - in a neighborhood with a trailer park on one side and a hay field on the other. There are children at her school whose parents have to decide between glasses and food. [Side note - school rankings mostly just measure how many wealthy families live in that area. My kids get a fine education.] We had a lot of discussions with them about why so-and-so kid has clothes with holes, why I always had healthy snacks for one kid in her class showed up just to say hi every afternoon, why the school gave out bags of food on Fridays. Now that they are in older grades, my kids stand up for the poor kids and explain to the kids from the wealthier side of town (whose parents are in our same income range) that you can need help even if your parents work really really really hard.
I also don't buy random stuff for them. They get toys on birthday and Christmas and that is it. I say no a lot (especially when they were toddlers). The only exception to the rule is books - I buy books petty much any time they ask me. My sister, who makes 25% of my salary, was shocked to find out my kids don't ask for random stuff at the store. I never give in. They've learned to bring their allowance if they want candy. It's a good way to help them learn to budget and to consider value.
Post by: jeninco on October 25, 2019, 09:29:00 PM
I wanted to especially reiterate @Laura33 's point: your goal (well, OK, MY goal) is to raise your kids to be good adults. The kind who aren't "spoiled, entitled twits". I've found having this long view has been really helpful in getting through the teen/tween years. (Also, as she mentioned, don't panic if your KID still displays some of those characteristics: the easiest way for a teen/tween to yank his/her parent's chain is to be what they least want.)
My now-18 year old has mentioned several times that he's met kids who are examples of why we've raised him the way we did, as they are super-wealthy, entitled jerks. The first time he did this, it was a huge moment of relief.
Post by: damyst on October 26, 2019, 03:03:08 AM
Our son (4.5 years old) has a somewhat more privileged childhood than his parents did, but then neither of us grew up underprivileged, and I'd like to think we turned out to be productive, polite and generally positive adults.
At his age we don't often discuss money directly - it's too abstract. We focus on trustworthiness, sharing, hygiene, time management, effective communication, etc etc.
We certainly don't buy him anything and everything he asks for. In fact, we rarely need to buy him anything at all. The grandparents have that covered.
Post by: Freedomin5 on October 26, 2019, 06:30:20 AM
Now she is five, and she just finished her first gig dog sitting where we paid her $1 per day. I introduce the concept of interest, saying that if she saved her money in her bank (that comes with a lock!) the money will earn more money. I’m tying that to her allowance. Right now, she has $40 in her bank, and I’m paying 10% interest per month, so she’ll get $4 if she doesn’t spend any of that money. Interest is calculated on the first of the month based on the amount in the piggy bank. I understand that interest rate unsustainable in the long term, so I’ll probably adjust it downwards as her savings goes up. She doesn’t really understand the finer point of compound interest, but this helps her grasp the concept that saving money and investing it is an easy way to make more money.
We also focus on buying just what we need and decluttering. On her birthday and Christmas, she is allowed to choose one new toy from her presents, but she must get rid of one old toy. Also, she must choose one or two new toys to donate. We also focus a lot on counting our blessings and being happy with what we already have. And if she does whine for a new toy while we are out, I ask her, “Did you bring your money?” The answer is always no since it’s never a planned purchase. I then say, “Oh, that’s alright. Next time remember to bring your money and we can come back and buy it.” She usually forgets about it within the hour. If she does remember the toy and whine about it when we are at home, I just say, “Oh sure, the next time we go to that store, remember to bring your money.” We rarely go to the same toy store twice, so then within a few days, she’s usually forgotten all about the toy.
Post by: Metalcat on October 26, 2019, 07:53:43 AM
Some kids from wealthier families grow up expecting to always be able to have the luxuries they were raised with and really struggle with the concept of more frugal lifestyles, and some learn through their lifestyle the level of trade offs involved, and end up turned off by consumerism.
Some kids of billionaires end up total monsters who are incapable of seeing anyone who isn't a billionaire as anything more than sub-human, meanwhile some kids of billionaires end up wanting nothing more than to live in a rural cabin and work as a mail carrier (true story).
How your kids turn out with respect to money attitudes actually has very little to do with how much you choose to spend and a lot to do with how you engage with them on things like lifestyle and finance.
That said, there's a lot of good child development research out there that shows that your impact on your kids dramatically trails off by ~8 years old and after that point, it's the influence of their social network that takes over. So it's hard to say how much influence you actually will even get to have on a subject that's hard to grasp before that age.
Basically, in the end, you don't actually get to decide what attitudes your children will develop, no matter what you try and do, so don't overthink at this stage of the game.
Post by: MayDay on October 26, 2019, 08:50:05 PM
First of all, were just tired. And when you work a lot and can afford it, it's awfully nice to throw money at problems.
Also, I like doing things like going on vacation! And we can easily afford it. So we don't want the deny ourselves to not spoil the kids- which can quickly become a slippery slope.
Finally, asany people have mentioned, kids want lots of things,and are exposed to lots of outside influences. This is one area we did well, as we live in a fairly diverse area with housing stock that is smaller and older, this there is less wealth (they are still unaffordable to the truly poor but also not appealing to the truly rich). There is ~20% affordable housing in our town so they are exposed to a decent amount of income diversity. And our HHI is on the higher end of the town I'm guessing.
But in the end it feels like a crapshoot that is out of our control and/or being determined by factors that we might not even be correctly identifying until it's too late.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 28, 2019, 10:15:21 PM
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 29, 2019, 06:18:12 AM
Post by: Laura33 on October 29, 2019, 06:32:55 AM
When it comes to influencing kids, it has everything to do with what behaviors you model. It has almost nothing to do with what you say. If you want your kids to appreciate something, model the behavior and keep your mouth shut.
It's not always that easy, because if you keep your mouth shut, kids don't hear your thought process or see you struggle. Unless you buy everything with cash, they don't see the money going out; if you just run down the shopping list without saying anything, they assume you buy everything you want and don't understand how many times you say no to yourself.
I agree that lectures and "do what I say, not what I do" are completely unhelpful. But you do need to be open about your decisionmaking process and your own temptations so they understand what you are modeling.
Post by: StarBright on October 29, 2019, 09:04:28 AM
. . . .
- Show them your own decisionmaking process. When I was growing up, I did the grocery shopping with my mom with my school calculator, so I could make sure we didn't go over our Food Stamps. My daughter, OTOH, grew up watching me throw stuff in the basket and whip out the magic plastic card to pay. Even worse, she saw the one time I said yes to a treat for myself, and she didn't see the hundred other times I saw something I wanted and told myself no. So I worked to make that more overt. I started saying those idle thoughts out loud ("oooh, that chocolate bar looks delicious, but I don't need it"). I started talking about how the CC works and how I send them money every month from what I earn to pay it off. Etc.
. . . .
We are just dealing with the bolded this week in our house! DS7 told me he had "thousands of wants" and wondered why Mommy and Daddy didn't have any. We ended up having a really great conversation. He asked me what I wanted and I had a really long list and I got to explain to him why I don't just give myself all of those things with the money from my job.
I also tend not to take my kids to the store with me because they are such a handful so they just see food and school supplies magically appear when needed. I probably need to tough it out and bring them along once in a while.
Also agree with all the previous posters that where you live is important.
Post by: honeybbq on October 29, 2019, 09:49:18 AM
When it comes to influencing kids, it has everything to do with what behaviors you model. It has almost nothing to do with what you say. If you want your kids to appreciate something, model the behavior and keep your mouth shut.
Disagree. Explaining the thought process behind the decision making is really important. But I agree you cannot say one thing and do another; that doesn't work.
Post by: ysette9 on October 29, 2019, 10:22:01 AM
I don’t have a great answer yet for how to keep them normal and appreciative, but we often say “no”. Most of their stuff is used or hand me downs or gifts. My oldest will ask for things and sometimes she gets them and a lot of the time she does not. We try to talk about money but I am not sure how much she understand yet. In short, we are winging it and have no real clue what we are doing.
Post by: BeanCounter on October 29, 2019, 10:56:43 AM
How your kids turn out with respect to money attitudes actually has very little to do with how much you choose to spend and a lot to do with how you engage with them on things like lifestyle and finance.
This is what I am discovering on my journey of raising children. It seems the BEST thing I can give them is the space, security and time to talk to us. When they have lots of down time with us and we are sharing with them, they feel comfortable to share with us and ask any question at all. They know that we won't get angry, frustrated, or overly concerned. That open dialogue is how they not only learn about our family values regarding money, but on things like screen time, drugs, cuss words, the friends they choose. The list goes on and on.
Post by: 2sk22 on October 29, 2019, 11:22:44 AM
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 29, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
Kids are a crap shoot. There’s no guarantee of anything
This probably best sums up my experience. It doesn't help that they were infants when we were truly frugal and working ourselves ragged. Now that they are teenagers, they only see us living an upper middle class life on one income, and I never complain about work or work long hours. Our son is great with money, a natural saver. Our daughter, on the other hand, notices with jealousy when another girl her age has an iPhone 11 from a mile away. She is always broke and disappointed that she can't afford 'x' even though she could have saved up for it. As far as I know, we raised them both pretty much the same and modeled the same behaviors. Our kids, their peers, and our peers have no idea of our household income or net worth, we are big believers in stealth wealth being a great way to live. My wife and I grew up solidly middle class, nice suburbs in the Midwest but no new cars, expensive clothes, or fancy homes.
We have traveled and lived in other countries, which has helped our children see that the American consumer-centric way of living is not the only option, and not necessarily the best option. But we also currently live in a master planned community full of consumer sukkas, so that, probably, has had the greatest effect on what they currently think 'normal' is.
Post by: Anon648 on October 29, 2019, 03:40:15 PM
1) It's important to teach your children that even when they don't get what they want, they'll be just fine. This is not arbitrarily denying your children things they want, but rather drawing a line where it's reasonable and then holding the line. I've seen wealthy parents develop a habit of caving to all sorts of demands. If you have the money, it's often easier to just buy your kids whatever they want and avoid a tantrum. But then your kids don't have the opportunity to learn to cope with denial and disappointment in a safe, healthy and low-risk situation. And they can become very emotionally vulnerable to disappointment and denial later in life, when the stakes are higher and their parents aren't there to support them.
2) Model working and saving behavior for your kids. My mom worked pretty hard until she retired. My father worked very, very hard (in retrospect, I see that this was pretty unhealthy). Kids model their parents. Since my early teens I've liked working, earning my own money, and saving. I didn't make very much money at first, and I'm sure I could have asked my parents to give me same amount of cash as an allowance. But it felt good to work and earn the money myself. I'm sure that's in part because this was behavior modeled by my parents.
3) Try to be a "warm-demanding" parent for your kids and try to find activities coached/instructed by a "warm-demanding" authority figure. If you have the financial resources to support your kids into adulthood, it can be easier not to be demanding of them because they don't necessarily risk a bad financial outcome if they fail to meet high academic or other standards. But holding your kids to high standards, paired with a warm, supportive approach, seems to be pretty important in helping them become successful adults, at least according to the research I've seen. Finding a sport, or musical instrument, or other activity coached/instructed by a very demanding but also supportive adult can be really helpful for this too. When your kid is participating in some activity and competing against other kids, how much money your family has is a lot less important than the hours your kid has spent practicing and their ability to push themselves to perform at well as they can. At least based on my own experience as a child, this will help your kid learn to enjoy the satisfaction that comes from working hard toward a goal and then achieving the goal. I think this is particularly important for kids who don't feel a lot of financial pressure motivating them to perform well in school/work. The habits we develop as kids stick with us through life.
Post by: firestarter2018 on October 29, 2019, 05:37:56 PM
I've been thinking about moving our family to a nicer house in a nicer part of town at some point (still within our means, obviously), but this thread has me rethinking. Yes, I'd like a house that better meets our needs and has a few more creature comforts, but if that comes with my kids starting to take stuff for granted and being around peers with much nicer toys/cars/houses/clothes, then it may not be worth it. I'm sure there's a happy medium to be found.
Post by: Agg97 on November 03, 2019, 04:21:57 PM
----- OR -----
Spoil your kids, raise your grandkids.
Choose wisely.
Post by: Cassie on November 03, 2019, 04:58:08 PM
Post by: Kyle Schuant on November 03, 2019, 05:43:13 PM
Obviously the power of example is most important, as others have said. Always remember the song Cats in the Cradle - "my son was just like me, he'd grown up just like me." How you want your children to live depends on you, it's your lifestyle, so we can't really talk about that except to help you find what you believe in.
But pocket money I can talk about a bit.
- Give them an allowance - teaches savings and frugality. My son wanted some stupid toy and I told him it would be 8 weeks allowance, he no longer wanted it.As well, tie that allowance to small jobs. My son has a board where he records things he has to do like some homework, but also at least 3 jobs each week. It's small stuff like sweeping the driveway, emptying the dishwasher, cleaning the hallway toilet. stuff that takes like 10 minutes, nothing arduous. Every 3 months we sit down and discuss, I suggest some jobs and he gets his choice of them. He has to do at least 3 each week to get his pocket money on Sunday night.
His "jobs" are distinct from his "duties", like tidying his room. Duty means something you have to do no matter what, a job is what you do for money. Doesn't want to do a job? That's fine, he gets no money. Still has to do his duties, though. Always does his jobs, though.
I began his pocket money when he was 4. This was prompted by him at hannukah saying "but I want one hundred presents!" and also the thought that some basic arithmetic skills would help him when he started school. He got $2. It goes up $1 each year.
Once he was 5, I got him 3 treasure chest boxes off ebay, labelling them Give, Save and Spend. He has to put at least $1 in each of them. The idea is to get him to think of others (a good vaccine against being selfish), think of and plan for the future, and think of today.
Typically his Spend goes on an ice cream or chips from the corner milk day. We wait for his Give to get up to $20 or so and then choose a charity, our family sponsors a child through the Smith Family and typically his Give goes to a gift card for that kid. As for Save, that's gone a few places - on Tintin books, that sort of thing. Most notably, last year he decided he wanted a new bike, as his old one was a bit small and beat-up. I told him, "whatever you save by your eighth birthday, I'll match." He got a bit of money from relatives for hannukah and the like, but most of it was his own savings - he got up to $135. So then for his eighth birthday we found a bike, it was $288 (I spotted him the difference).
As we walked out of the shop with the bike, he said, "I wish it had been cheaper so I could have paid for it all myself." Apparently he is learning lessons I didn't try to teach him.
I've seen him sitting on the floor of a bookshop, looking at a book for $8, looking through his wallet and finding $9 in it, sitting and thinking for a bit - and then putting the book back on the shelf. I felt a bit guilty since obviously I can just get it for him, but also proud - that was the real lesson I wanted to teach him with pocket money: making a choice. Even if you're well-off you have to make choices, you can't have everything. Being unable to understand this is how people end up with massive credit card debts, and that sort of thing.
When he's 15 his pocket money will stop as he'll be old enough to get a part-time job, he can budget that money as he wishes, it's my hope that by that time good habits will have set in.
My daughter's only 3, we'll start her on this next year.
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 03, 2019, 05:53:58 PM
I have friends where the parent-child relationship was terrible but the child eventually turned out into a great success. Vice versa
As parents, you should do what you think is best for the child and keep your expectations in check
People don’t have much control over things as they think they do
Post by: WSUCoug1994 on November 03, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
The point of her article was the parent with the child having an absolute meltdown in some public place is because they are being a good parent. You should walk right up to them and give them a high five. That really resonated for me.
Post by: ender on November 03, 2019, 09:10:20 PM
How your kid turns out is a crap shoot
I have friends where the parent-child relationship was terrible but the child eventually turned out into a great success. Vice versa
As parents, you should do what you think is best for the child and keep your expectations in check
People don’t have much control over things as they think they do
To call it a "crapshoot" that parents have influence over what happens with kids is pretty naive.
Post by: Kyle Schuant on November 03, 2019, 09:28:00 PM
We can't control their whole lives, but we can certainly influence them. If it's a crapshoot then we can try to load the dice in their favour.
Post by: Metalcat on November 04, 2019, 05:24:08 AM
How your kid turns out is a crap shoot
I have friends where the parent-child relationship was terrible but the child eventually turned out into a great success. Vice versa
As parents, you should do what you think is best for the child and keep your expectations in check
People don’t have much control over things as they think they do
To call it a "crapshoot" that parents have influence over what happens with kids is pretty naive.
Assuming we're talking about raising kids within an acceptable range of healthy environments, then yes, it absolutely is a crap shoot how they will turn out.
As Kyle mentioned, there are obvious and predictable outcomes of failing to provide a safe and healthy environment for children, but I'm going to assume it's a given that OP is not concerned about that.
Parents certainly, enormously influence the development of their kids, but not in a predictable manner. Basically meaning, you can't set out to raise your kid in a certain way with a certain outcome in mind of what they'll be like as adults and actually, predictably get that result. No matter what you try and instill, the kid may choose to rebel against it, largely depending on the influence of their peers in school and their own experiences.
Nancyfrank has demonstrated a certain inflammatory style of making a point, but if the point is that you don't get to decide how your kid turns out no matter how hard you try, then I completely agree.
You can teach kids anything, but you can't decide who they become.
Post by: Luz on November 04, 2019, 09:24:21 PM
Some kids from low income families end up frugal and don't see a lot of value in consumerism, some grow up obsessed with symbols of wealth and will stop at nothing to buy the things they could never have.
Some kids from wealthier families grow up expecting to always be able to have the luxuries they were raised with and really struggle with the concept of more frugal lifestyles, and some learn through their lifestyle the level of trade offs involved, and end up turned off by consumerism.
Some kids of billionaires end up total monsters who are incapable of seeing anyone who isn't a billionaire as anything more than sub-human, meanwhile some kids of billionaires end up wanting nothing more than to live in a rural cabin and work as a mail carrier (true story).
How your kids turn out with respect to money attitudes actually has very little to do with how much you choose to spend and a lot to do with how you engage with them on things like lifestyle and finance.
That said, there's a lot of good child development research out there that shows that your impact on your kids dramatically trails off by ~8 years old and after that point, it's the influence of their social network that takes over. So it's hard to say how much influence you actually will even get to have on a subject that's hard to grasp before that age.
Basically, in the end, you don't actually get to decide what attitudes your children will develop, no matter what you try and do, so don't overthink at this stage of the game.
Am I the only one who finds research related to parenting a bit exasperating? I feel like it is all so conflicting, errs towards value biases, and makes drastic claims despite social research being more of an art than a science. In addition, it's often not reflective of the actual experience of raising a child.
For example, the movement emphasizing self esteem a generation or so ago was based on a logical fallacy. It was believed that kids who feel good about themselves, do well. Now we know that it's actually the opposite: kids who do well feel good about themselves.
For this reason, I ignore most of what parenting experts say.
I get that as a parent, I'm not all that matters. But I disagree that it's a crapshoot. It doesn't have to be black and white.
Post by: damyst on November 04, 2019, 10:25:39 PM
Am I the only one who finds research related to parenting a bit exasperating? I feel like it is all so conflicting, errs towards value biases, and makes drastic claims despite social research being more of an art than a science. In addition, it's often not reflective of the actual experience of raising a child.
For example, the movement emphasizing self esteem a generation or so ago was based on a logical fallacy. It was believed that kids who feel good about themselves, do well. Now we know that it's actually the opposite: kids who do well feel good about themselves.
For this reason, I ignore most of what parenting experts say.
I get that as a parent, I'm not all that matters. But I disagree that it's a crapshoot. It doesn't have to be black and white.
The state of the art is so dismal, that even the use of the term "parenting" in a headline indicates that the text you're about to read is a waste of time.
Well-founded research about children and families rarely employs that term.
Post by: Metalcat on November 05, 2019, 04:17:21 AM
Some kids from low income families end up frugal and don't see a lot of value in consumerism, some grow up obsessed with symbols of wealth and will stop at nothing to buy the things they could never have.
Some kids from wealthier families grow up expecting to always be able to have the luxuries they were raised with and really struggle with the concept of more frugal lifestyles, and some learn through their lifestyle the level of trade offs involved, and end up turned off by consumerism.
Some kids of billionaires end up total monsters who are incapable of seeing anyone who isn't a billionaire as anything more than sub-human, meanwhile some kids of billionaires end up wanting nothing more than to live in a rural cabin and work as a mail carrier (true story).
How your kids turn out with respect to money attitudes actually has very little to do with how much you choose to spend and a lot to do with how you engage with them on things like lifestyle and finance.
That said, there's a lot of good child development research out there that shows that your impact on your kids dramatically trails off by ~8 years old and after that point, it's the influence of their social network that takes over. So it's hard to say how much influence you actually will even get to have on a subject that's hard to grasp before that age.
Basically, in the end, you don't actually get to decide what attitudes your children will develop, no matter what you try and do, so don't overthink at this stage of the game.
Am I the only one who finds research related to parenting a bit exasperating? I feel like it is all so conflicting, errs towards value biases, and makes drastic claims despite social research being more of an art than a science. In addition, it's often not reflective of the actual experience of raising a child.
For example, the movement emphasizing self esteem a generation or so ago was based on a logical fallacy. It was believed that kids who feel good about themselves, do well. Now we know that it's actually the opposite: kids who do well feel good about themselves.
For this reason, I ignore most of what parenting experts say.
I get that as a parent, I'm not all that matters. But I disagree that it's a crapshoot. It doesn't have to be black and white.
Well, I've never read anything from a parenting expert. Whenever I refer to research, I'm referring to what I learned in developmental psychology, which I tend to find pretty reliable.
It's not black and white at all, but just to clarify, do you, as a parent believe that you can decide through your parenting choices how your kid turns out as an adult?
Post by: mm1970 on November 05, 2019, 10:44:58 AM
7 of the kids are savers, 2 are spenders...who knows why?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on November 05, 2019, 04:21:16 PM
Just wanted to make a point in the "crapshoot" vein. I've got 8 siblings, a mix of his/hers/ours with widowerhood in there.If it were just the influence of society, then 7 would be spenders and 2 savers. If it were pure chance, it'd be 4-5 of each. You mightn't know why, but I suspect a family friend who knows you all would have some observations. When you're immersed in things it's hard to see clearly what's happening. The fish can't see the water, but the waterbird can.
7 of the kids are savers, 2 are spenders...who knows why?
We can influence, but not determine how our children grow up. We can't be sure of any outcome, but we can make some outcomes more or less likely. Talk to any teacher and they'll tell you that when they meet the child's parents, "the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree."
Post by: Laura33 on November 06, 2019, 07:50:18 AM
Just wanted to make a point in the "crapshoot" vein. I've got 8 siblings, a mix of his/hers/ours with widowerhood in there.If it were just the influence of society, then 7 would be spenders and 2 savers. If it were pure chance, it'd be 4-5 of each. You mightn't know why, but I suspect a family friend who knows you all would have some observations. When you're immersed in things it's hard to see clearly what's happening. The fish can't see the water, but the waterbird can.
7 of the kids are savers, 2 are spenders...who knows why?
We can influence, but not determine how our children grow up. We can't be sure of any outcome, but we can make some outcomes more or less likely. Talk to any teacher and they'll tell you that when they meet the child's parents, "the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree."
The other aspect is that you can't tell at any one point in time. My kids are Jack and Mrs. Sprat -- completely opposite in every way. DD was always the one who wanted everything; you'd swear she was the one people talk about when they talk about money burning a hole in her pocket. Meanwhile, DS loves possessing things, as if they were talismans; he hoards his money and never wanted anything enough to spend his money on it.
Fast forward: DD is now in college and living off of her savings. Suddenly, she absolutely hates spending money -- she's rationing her meal plan dollars so she doesn't have to spend her own money, getting her clothes at Goodwill, etc. In 2.5 months, she's taken all of $75 out of her savings (she had a budget of around $150/mo). Meanwhile, DS has hit his teens and discovered video games and is now throwing money around right and left on games, subscriptions, handheld things, pokemon -- you name it. So now my kid that I thought was the easy one is the problem, and I have to develop a whole new set of parenting skills for him!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 06, 2019, 08:10:01 AM
If it were just the influence of society, then 7 would be spenders and 2 savers. If it were pure chance, it'd be 4-5 of each.
This isn’t true
It could be any combination regardless of type and number of influences
Post by: mm1970 on November 06, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
My theory is that they were both the "youngest" - one of the "his" group (father was a widower, so she was the baby from age 2 when her mother died until 9 when my parents married), and one of the "ours" - the youngest, also the only boy. So, just by that fact he got a lot of new stuff, because there were no hand me downs. Even the closest cousin (my age) was the same size.Just wanted to make a point in the "crapshoot" vein. I've got 8 siblings, a mix of his/hers/ours with widowerhood in there.If it were just the influence of society, then 7 would be spenders and 2 savers. If it were pure chance, it'd be 4-5 of each. You mightn't know why, but I suspect a family friend who knows you all would have some observations. When you're immersed in things it's hard to see clearly what's happening. The fish can't see the water, but the waterbird can.
7 of the kids are savers, 2 are spenders...who knows why?
We can influence, but not determine how our children grow up. We can't be sure of any outcome, but we can make some outcomes more or less likely. Talk to any teacher and they'll tell you that when they meet the child's parents, "the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree."
But who knows, really.
Post by: Luz on November 10, 2019, 09:45:16 PM
Some kids from low income families end up frugal and don't see a lot of value in consumerism, some grow up obsessed with symbols of wealth and will stop at nothing to buy the things they could never have.
Some kids from wealthier families grow up expecting to always be able to have the luxuries they were raised with and really struggle with the concept of more frugal lifestyles, and some learn through their lifestyle the level of trade offs involved, and end up turned off by consumerism.
Some kids of billionaires end up total monsters who are incapable of seeing anyone who isn't a billionaire as anything more than sub-human, meanwhile some kids of billionaires end up wanting nothing more than to live in a rural cabin and work as a mail carrier (true story).
How your kids turn out with respect to money attitudes actually has very little to do with how much you choose to spend and a lot to do with how you engage with them on things like lifestyle and finance.
That said, there's a lot of good child development research out there that shows that your impact on your kids dramatically trails off by ~8 years old and after that point, it's the influence of their social network that takes over. So it's hard to say how much influence you actually will even get to have on a subject that's hard to grasp before that age.
Basically, in the end, you don't actually get to decide what attitudes your children will develop, no matter what you try and do, so don't overthink at this stage of the game.
Am I the only one who finds research related to parenting a bit exasperating? I feel like it is all so conflicting, errs towards value biases, and makes drastic claims despite social research being more of an art than a science. In addition, it's often not reflective of the actual experience of raising a child.
For example, the movement emphasizing self esteem a generation or so ago was based on a logical fallacy. It was believed that kids who feel good about themselves, do well. Now we know that it's actually the opposite: kids who do well feel good about themselves.
For this reason, I ignore most of what parenting experts say.
I get that as a parent, I'm not all that matters. But I disagree that it's a crapshoot. It doesn't have to be black and white.
Well, I've never read anything from a parenting expert. Whenever I refer to research, I'm referring to what I learned in developmental psychology, which I tend to find pretty reliable.
It's not black and white at all, but just to clarify, do you, as a parent believe that you can decide through your parenting choices how your kid turns out as an adult?
But why do you find developmental psychology reliable (or at least reliable enough to agree with the claim that the influence of children's peers takes over from that of their parents by age 8)? It was through the experience of studying a social science that I realized how fallible the research actually is in drawing definitive conclusions. I still think social research is fascinating and draws important connections. But conclusions are tentative at best.
I like how Gary Gutting describes it in his 2012 NYT article:
"While the physical sciences produce many detailed and precise predictions, the social sciences do not. The reason is that such predictions almost always require randomized controlled experiments, which are seldom possible when people are involved. For one thing, we are too complex: our behavior depends on an enormous number of tightly interconnected variables that are extraordinarily difficult to distinguish and study separately. Also, moral considerations forbid manipulating humans the way we do inanimate objects. As a result, most social science research falls far short of the natural sciences’ standard of controlled experiments."
Not only is it pretty much impossible to control for all possible variables in the social sciences, (I include psychology in that group) but generalizing from sample to population is equally problematic. That's because the tighter the controls on a particular experiment, the less representative of the actual social context it's meant to study.
I guess I would want to dig into the studies to know how exactly the researchers came to this claim. How did they define their variables? What theoretical basis did they use? Through what lens did they interpret results? What about the methods: did they observe participants? Give them questionnaires? Study twins? If they studied twins, what assumptions were involved? And on and on.
I think there's a big difference between "influence" and "control" in this conversation. I think parents have a great deal of control of their kid's environment up until the latter half of middle childhood. And then the child begins the process of differentiating themselves from their parents. So in that sense I think kid's peers do become an important influence around 8 or 9. And parents slowly but surely lose control, as it should be.
But I think parents, (or primary caregivers) more so than any other factor, have the greatest "capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior" of their kids (the quote is how my computer's dictionary defines "influence"). Even beyond age 8 or 9, since the effect is cumulative and also because adolescence is an important sensitive period where I think guidance (limits and emotional warmth) makes a huge difference- even if that guidance is not always particularly well received by all appearances.
Really, there's no way to truly find out. What I'm stating is just my opinion. It's not fact. But I'd argue that the research stating the opposite isn't exactly fact either. For that reason, I'm assuming that parents make a difference and am letting that drive my choices. Better that I'm wrong and I put out unnecessary effort, than I'm right and miss the boat.
I think my answer to your question on parenting choices depends on what you mean by "turns out".
Post by: Luz on November 10, 2019, 10:50:15 PM
She posed a similar question.
"So how do we prepare middle- and upper-middle-class kids to thrive, then, to lean in to life, to persevere, when the rough edges of life have been sanded off by the very privilege we worked so hard to be able to provide for them?" ... "How can they aspire to achieve excellence and hunger for success if they've been given so much and have never hungered for much at all?"
Lythcott-Haims goes on to say: "In a rather ironic twist, poor and working-class kids, whose parents lack the financial resources, social capital, and sheer amount of time needed to engineer perfect outcomes at every turn, are sometimes fortified by their tougher life experiences and may end up much stronger than their affluent counterparts in the long run..." (stronger in terms of drive and perseverance, though they lack the "expectation that they will succeed, the belief system that they belong in college"). She describes how the mix of drive and perseverance with the expectations of success is an unstoppable combination. But it was within the context of the addition of the expectation of success when the perseverance was already there. I wonder how a parent could add drive and perseverance to the existing expectation of success that most middle class kids already enjoy. It seems like a much harder task.
One of her answers is that it's important to let kids struggle (as in, don't intervene when they are faced with a challenge, as middle class parents are more and more apt to do). To have the expectation that they work at least in part for their keep and not just ride the wave of your success.
I think it's also important that they have perspective. That they interact with people from a variety of socioeconomic levels. And not in a service position, like volunteering at a food pantry (which is pretty embarrassing for those of us who were kids at the other end of the handout). But instead that they get to know people from lower SE positions as peers. Better yet, they spend time in a developing country to truly understand that having fresh air to breathe and clean water to drink is a privilege.
I think gratitude, as others have mentioned, is helpful in keeping that perspective.
But still, I'm not totally satisfied. It's just a bit strange to raise kids in a different socioeconomic class than what you were raised in and to realize that there are some things they just won't get for not having gone through it themselves.
Post by: savedandsaving on November 11, 2019, 12:16:42 PM
I didn't get an allowance, wasn't ever told I needed to get a job, never babysat or mowed lawns, my parents didn't use explanatory phrases like "can't afford it" or "that's not a priority," and I absolutely never heard words like "rich" and "poor." And yet, I never really asked for much as a kid, didn't really want for much at all, didn't worry about money ever, didn't want the homes or toys of my occasional much-richer friends, and when I hit 16, I woke up one day and told my parents "I need to go out and get a job!!" and I did just that.
Sometimes it's helpful for kids to not have anything about their relationship with you, or your relationship with others, seem trasactional. Instead, model how you want them to behave and they'll follow. (Also, keeping good company for yourselves and your kids as others have suggested is great, too...because they'll mimic their friends, not just you.)
My parents are extremely generous people. As a child and young adult, I saw them give to the church, give to charity, give to our friends, and provide endless hospitality to others. I saw my dad leave home and work hard every day and come back tired but happy, ready to ask all about my day. I ended up wanting to be like them, and I learned wordlessly early on that it's much more fun to give and work than to receive and be lazy. When I got older, I realized that I grew up in a solidly middle-class family and that I usually had little luxuries at my disposal that other kids didn't. But the desire to be generous to others remained, which is what eventually made me end up here, practicing frugality over little personal luxuries so that I can be generous to others.
Just a few thoughts. I think any good parenting strategy about money is going to involve a custom balance of being open with many things while concealing some things that are beyond a child's understanding. But my biggest recommendation is this: let your children have a childhood. They have the rest of their lives to think about money and work. Right now, they have the joy of getting to rest assured in your (modest to their eyes) provision.
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 12, 2019, 07:22:56 PM
I'm here to play devil's advocate and suggest a slightly different take: my parents really never talked about money at all, and it worked really really well. I see elements of this strategy in some of the answers above.
I didn't get an allowance, wasn't ever told I needed to get a job, never babysat or mowed lawns, my parents didn't use explanatory phrases like "can't afford it" or "that's not a priority," and I absolutely never heard words like "rich" and "poor." And yet, I never really asked for much as a kid, didn't really want for much at all, didn't worry about money ever, didn't want the homes or toys of my occasional much-richer friends, and when I hit 16, I woke up one day and told my parents "I need to go out and get a job!!" and I did just that.
Sometimes it's helpful for kids to not have anything about their relationship with you, or your relationship with others, seem trasactional. Instead, model how you want them to behave and they'll follow. (Also, keeping good company for yourselves and your kids as others have suggested is great, too...because they'll mimic their friends, not just you.)
My parents are extremely generous people. As a child and young adult, I saw them give to the church, give to charity, give to our friends, and provide endless hospitality to others. I saw my dad leave home and work hard every day and come back tired but happy, ready to ask all about my day. I ended up wanting to be like them, and I learned wordlessly early on that it's much more fun to give and work than to receive and be lazy. When I got older, I realized that I grew up in a solidly middle-class family and that I usually had little luxuries at my disposal that other kids didn't. But the desire to be generous to others remained, which is what eventually made me end up here, practicing frugality over little personal luxuries so that I can be generous to others.
Just a few thoughts. I think any good parenting strategy about money is going to involve a custom balance of being open with many things while concealing some things that are beyond a child's understanding. But my biggest recommendation is this: let your children have a childhood. They have the rest of their lives to think about money and work. Right now, they have the joy of getting to rest assured in your (modest to their eyes) provision.
+ 1
Awesome post
