Author Topic: E-bike basics, please  (Read 2417 times)

Villanelle

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E-bike basics, please
« on: December 11, 2022, 01:09:06 PM »
I happened to check my odometer and realized I've driven about 2000 miles since I purchased my car.  In May 2021.  But I can't make the jump to getting rid of my car.  DH has to drive to work every day.  It's close (about 10 miles), but dropping him off isn't an option.  (Not up for discussion here, please.)  To get him close to work, we live in the middle of the burbs.  Like, as burby a burb that ever did burb.  I can't really walk to anything other than neighbors and some nice walking trails.  I'm just not willing to be without a vehicle.  But I'm starting to think an e-bike might be sufficient, especially if DH would be willing to e-bike to work some days so I could have he car.  This seems reasonable.

But I know fuck-all about e-bikes and very quickly got overwhelmed.  I'm a chubby 40-something who would use the bike to go <20 miles on non-highway roads.  Some fairly significant hills.  No charging station in the garage or solar (we rent, so neither is an option).  I'd probably want cargo capacity for a few bags of groceries, to give a sense of volume.  Where should I start?  Recommendations?  The ideal situation would be to find one used, to make sure I'd actually use it, but I'll probably also look at retails.  Brands, models to consider, features to look for or avoid, anything else to consider?

SemiChemE

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 07:22:58 PM »
I bought a Radcity 5 ebike from Rad Power Bikes (https://www.radpowerbikes.com/) in March 2022.  I've been pretty happy with it.  I commuted to and from work (~7 miles each way) about 3 days per week from May through August.  I believe it is considered a "class 2" bike, which means it has both pedal assist (power proportional to your pedaling) and a throttle (speed control without pedaling).  Further, "Class 2" bikes have a top speed of 20 mph, above that, the power cuts out.   There is a way to remove the 20mph limitation, but the speed still tops out around 23-24 mph. 

When new my bike would get about 40 miles per charge, but by now it gets closer to 25 miles on a charge, which is the "rated" range.  The battery charger just plugs into a regular outlet.  It takes about 7 hrs to completely charge. 

As for the ride, it is pretty much like a regular bicycle.  It is quite heavy, weighing in at around 65 lbs,  but the motor more than makes up for that.  You can adjust the level of "pedal assist" from 0 to 5.  At 5, the bike really moves you and you should be able to reach speeds around 20mph with only moderate effort.  Hills are essentially erased, as far as the effort needed to climb them, although the bike may slow down to 10-13 mph on steep hills.  Still, it is very easy to ride this bike to work without working up too much of a sweat, even on hot days.   I would highly recommend it.

The bike comes with a pretty good rack for hauling a backpack or groceries. I can fit about 3 reusable grocery bags, so long as I strap them down good with bungie cords.  It can easily handle a routine grocery run, but probably wouldn't be my choice for a major shopping trip.

One comment, the radpower bikes are not particularly cheap, even though these are on the more affordable end of the ebike spectrum.  Considering my relatively short commute, I doubt the fuel savings will ever cover the purchase price.  Nevertheless, I love getting about 25 minutes of fresh air and exercise each way and it is certainly much cheaper than a car.  In the long run, I think its the health benefits that tip the scales in the favor of the ebike. I have a conventional bike, but I never rode it to work because I didn't want to arrive all sweaty.  The ebike remedies this situation, since I can ride to work in the morning mostly under the bike's power.  For the ride home, I can reduce the power assist and get quite a good workout.

There are a lot of technical decisions that can bog you down in your purchase decision.  If you do your research, you will hear about hub-drive vs. mid-drive motors, cadence vs. torque sensors for the power assist, and many other features.  In my opinion, the most important things to consider are the battery size (and range), and the motor size.  If those are adequate, you will likely have a good experience, even with the cheaper hub-drive motors and cadence sensors.  If you have any questions, let me know.  Good luck!

FINate

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2022, 11:30:42 AM »
Indeed, the bike market is a bit overwhelming.

First things first: You probably want a step-through (low cross bar, easy to mount/dismount) City / Commuter bike. The frame geometry on these is designed for a more upright ride than you would find on a mountain bike or road bike, which is more comfortable and natural for everyday riding.

As SemiChemE mentioned, decide between mid-drive and hub-drive. Lots of hills? You want a mid-drive to utilize the mechanical advantage of the drive-train gearing. Otherwise, hub-drive is adequate and usually less expensive.

Rad Power Bikes are a good value, but IMO the build quality isn't great and expect a little more maintenance. Nothing crazy, just tightening stuff that gets loose and adjusting a few thing here and there. Something like the Rad City 5 is what you're likely looking at (though there are other options). These are hub-drive bikes.

If you're budget allows it, and you plan on using this bike very frequently as a second vehicle (like, almost daily) then I'd recommend the Specialized Turbo Como 3.0. Better components and build quality than the Rad bikes. The Gates Carbon belt drive is quieter and cleaner than a chain, and the internal continuously variable hub is easy to shift and virtually maintenance free.

Both bikes have removable battery packs that can be charged off the bike, which may be useful since you don't have access to power in the garage.

Whatever the bike, install some decent saddle bags and you shouldn't have any problem hauling a few bags of groceries.

ETA: E-bikes are expensive, don't cheap out on a bike lock. And with electric assist there's no reason to go super light on a lock. Get a quality u-lock.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 11:37:33 AM by FINate »

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2022, 01:37:00 PM »
I bought a Radcity 5 ebike from Rad Power Bikes (https://www.radpowerbikes.com/) in March 2022.  I've been pretty happy with it.  I commuted to and from work (~7 miles each way) about 3 days per week from May through August.  I believe it is considered a "class 2" bike, which means it has both pedal assist (power proportional to your pedaling) and a throttle (speed control without pedaling).  Further, "Class 2" bikes have a top speed of 20 mph, above that, the power cuts out.   There is a way to remove the 20mph limitation, but the speed still tops out around 23-24 mph. 

When new my bike would get about 40 miles per charge, but by now it gets closer to 25 miles on a charge, which is the "rated" range.  The battery charger just plugs into a regular outlet.  It takes about 7 hrs to completely charge. 

As for the ride, it is pretty much like a regular bicycle.  It is quite heavy, weighing in at around 65 lbs,  but the motor more than makes up for that.  You can adjust the level of "pedal assist" from 0 to 5.  At 5, the bike really moves you and you should be able to reach speeds around 20mph with only moderate effort.  Hills are essentially erased, as far as the effort needed to climb them, although the bike may slow down to 10-13 mph on steep hills.  Still, it is very easy to ride this bike to work without working up too much of a sweat, even on hot days.   I would highly recommend it.

The bike comes with a pretty good rack for hauling a backpack or groceries. I can fit about 3 reusable grocery bags, so long as I strap them down good with bungie cords.  It can easily handle a routine grocery run, but probably wouldn't be my choice for a major shopping trip.

One comment, the radpower bikes are not particularly cheap, even though these are on the more affordable end of the ebike spectrum.  Considering my relatively short commute, I doubt the fuel savings will ever cover the purchase price.  Nevertheless, I love getting about 25 minutes of fresh air and exercise each way and it is certainly much cheaper than a car.  In the long run, I think its the health benefits that tip the scales in the favor of the ebike. I have a conventional bike, but I never rode it to work because I didn't want to arrive all sweaty.  The ebike remedies this situation, since I can ride to work in the morning mostly under the bike's power.  For the ride home, I can reduce the power assist and get quite a good workout.

There are a lot of technical decisions that can bog you down in your purchase decision.  If you do your research, you will hear about hub-drive vs. mid-drive motors, cadence vs. torque sensors for the power assist, and many other features.  In my opinion, the most important things to consider are the battery size (and range), and the motor size.  If those are adequate, you will likely have a good experience, even with the cheaper hub-drive motors and cadence sensors.  If you have any questions, let me know.  Good luck!

What does that mean? (That seems like a silly question, I know.) If I'm pedaling some, does that not increase the range?  Given that Dh's work is about 22 miles round trip, 25 miles seems to be cutting it close, but he'd likely be pedaling much of the time and using the "e" primarily for hills and to get going again from stops.  Of course it would be impossible to quantify how much pedaling vs "e-ing" he'd be doing, but can you clarify how this works as far as range and whether pedaling for at least 50% of the time (for example) would push that number up at all?  The last bit of his ride would be the steepest part, and that would be a terrible time to suddenly have 65 lbs. of dead weight to move.  If the pedaling wold add even another couple miles to that range, it would be fine, and even allow for a slight bit of degradation over time. 

Most of my trips are >10 miles, so it seems like that range would be fine for me, but for this to work, DH really needs to be able to get to work and back sometimes.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2022, 01:39:52 PM »
Indeed, the bike market is a bit overwhelming.

First things first: You probably want a step-through (low cross bar, easy to mount/dismount) City / Commuter bike. The frame geometry on these is designed for a more upright ride than you would find on a mountain bike or road bike, which is more comfortable and natural for everyday riding.

As SemiChemE mentioned, decide between mid-drive and hub-drive. Lots of hills? You want a mid-drive to utilize the mechanical advantage of the drive-train gearing. Otherwise, hub-drive is adequate and usually less expensive.

Rad Power Bikes are a good value, but IMO the build quality isn't great and expect a little more maintenance. Nothing crazy, just tightening stuff that gets loose and adjusting a few thing here and there. Something like the Rad City 5 is what you're likely looking at (though there are other options). These are hub-drive bikes.

If you're budget allows it, and you plan on using this bike very frequently as a second vehicle (like, almost daily) then I'd recommend the Specialized Turbo Como 3.0. Better components and build quality than the Rad bikes. The Gates Carbon belt drive is quieter and cleaner than a chain, and the internal continuously variable hub is easy to shift and virtually maintenance free.

Both bikes have removable battery packs that can be charged off the bike, which may be useful since you don't have access to power in the garage.

Whatever the bike, install some decent saddle bags and you shouldn't have any problem hauling a few bags of groceries.

ETA: E-bikes are expensive, don't cheap out on a bike lock. And with electric assist there's no reason to go super light on a lock. Get a quality u-lock.

Oh, I didn't even know that was a thing.  I am pretty sure there is no outlet in the garage, but I've never had reason to look so I could be mistaken.  I was imaging pulling the bike into the back yard and hooking it up to the outdoor plug on the patio, which would work, but the removal battery seems even better.  Thanks for that, and for the other info. 

Freedomin5

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2022, 02:03:59 PM »
Can’t give advice on specific brand, since I had a Chinese brand for the past five years that has now been bought by Xiaomi (the Yunbike C1). I LOOOOOOVE this bike. It’s great for city riding and has a max range of 70km on one charge. You can easily pop the battery off the bike and bring it into the office to charge during the day if you’re worried about running out of battery.

The heavier you are, the more power the bike uses to propel you places. But it’s not bad. For example, I put almost 200 lbs (between me and my daughter who rode in the bike mounted child seat) on the bike and needed to charge it after every 50 km.

The other thing I would recommend is making sure your bike has either tires designed for hybrid tires or mountain bike tires. There’s a lot of construction in my neighborhood and the thinner tires tended to pop more frequently.

There are ebike review websites, like this one.  You could check out a few of those sites and read the pros and cons, then find one that is suitable for your needs.

Metalcat

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2022, 03:11:24 PM »
Indeed, the bike market is a bit overwhelming.

First things first: You probably want a step-through (low cross bar, easy to mount/dismount) City / Commuter bike. The frame geometry on these is designed for a more upright ride than you would find on a mountain bike or road bike, which is more comfortable and natural for everyday riding.

As SemiChemE mentioned, decide between mid-drive and hub-drive. Lots of hills? You want a mid-drive to utilize the mechanical advantage of the drive-train gearing. Otherwise, hub-drive is adequate and usually less expensive.

Rad Power Bikes are a good value, but IMO the build quality isn't great and expect a little more maintenance. Nothing crazy, just tightening stuff that gets loose and adjusting a few thing here and there. Something like the Rad City 5 is what you're likely looking at (though there are other options). These are hub-drive bikes.

If you're budget allows it, and you plan on using this bike very frequently as a second vehicle (like, almost daily) then I'd recommend the Specialized Turbo Como 3.0. Better components and build quality than the Rad bikes. The Gates Carbon belt drive is quieter and cleaner than a chain, and the internal continuously variable hub is easy to shift and virtually maintenance free.

Both bikes have removable battery packs that can be charged off the bike, which may be useful since you don't have access to power in the garage.

Whatever the bike, install some decent saddle bags and you shouldn't have any problem hauling a few bags of groceries.

ETA: E-bikes are expensive, don't cheap out on a bike lock. And with electric assist there's no reason to go super light on a lock. Get a quality u-lock.

Oh, I didn't even know that was a thing.  I am pretty sure there is no outlet in the garage, but I've never had reason to look so I could be mistaken.  I was imaging pulling the bike into the back yard and hooking it up to the outdoor plug on the patio, which would work, but the removal battery seems even better.  Thanks for that, and for the other info.

Every e-bike I've seen has a removable battery. I have 2 and charge them on my kitchen counter.

Both of my bikes are old and very low power and they are more than enough for the range you are looking for. He can just charge the battery while he's at work.

Most of them also have built-in panier racks because that's where the batteries fit, so that covers carrying things.

You basically can't go wrong with any e-bike, as long as it's the shape you want. One of mine is a step-through with a very upright riding position. On a normal bike I need a more mountain-bike posture in order to get enough power to comfortably do hills, but on my e-bike they're like nothing.

So really, you can't go wrong. Most e-bikes out there right now are several times more powerful than my older models. All of the rad bikes are more than double the power I have.

When I was still biking, I barely had any strength because of my hip injuries and I was still able to bike long distances and up long, steep hills with absolutely no problems.

So yeah, I would just take a look at the rad bikes and pick whichever one has the shape you prefer. You really can't go wrong.

ixtap

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2022, 03:35:01 PM »
If you aren't used to distance biking, your butt will not that k you for going from 0 to 20 miles in one day. An e bike will allow you to go a lot further than your legs will, but will you be able to walk at the other end? Will you be willing to get back on the bike the next day? When we rented, we wore the same clothing we always wear biking, but we went about twice as far. We could not being ourselves to use them for anything more than a mile to breakfast and back and ended up taking the bus the second day. And even that hurt. You will both have to work up to using these for a 10 mile commute.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2022, 04:59:42 PM »
For reasons not worth going in to, charging at work isn't an option.  He'll need to get all 22 miles, plus the 8-10 hours at the office, on a single charge. 

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2022, 05:03:02 PM »
If you aren't used to distance biking, your butt will not that k you for going from 0 to 20 miles in one day. An e bike will allow you to go a lot further than your legs will, but will you be able to walk at the other end? Will you be willing to get back on the bike the next day? When we rented, we wore the same clothing we always wear biking, but we went about twice as far. We could not being ourselves to use them for anything more than a mile to breakfast and back and ended up taking the bus the second day. And even that hurt. You will both have to work up to using these for a 10 mile commute.

Good point on working up to it, especially because I haven't biked really at all the last few years.  I'll definitely take it easy at first!  Was the issue mostly muscle soreness, or seat soreness?

SemiChemE

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2022, 07:36:11 PM »
<snip> 

When new my bike would get about 40 miles per charge, but by now it gets closer to 25 miles on a charge, which is the "rated" range.  The battery charger just plugs into a regular outlet.  It takes about 7 hrs to completely charge. 

<snip>



What does that mean? (That seems like a silly question, I know.) If I'm pedaling some, does that not increase the range?  Given that Dh's work is about 22 miles round trip, 25 miles seems to be cutting it close, but he'd likely be pedaling much of the time and using the "e" primarily for hills and to get going again from stops.  Of course it would be impossible to quantify how much pedaling vs "e-ing" he'd be doing, but can you clarify how this works as far as range and whether pedaling for at least 50% of the time (for example) would push that number up at all?  The last bit of his ride would be the steepest part, and that would be a terrible time to suddenly have 65 lbs. of dead weight to move.  If the pedaling wold add even another couple miles to that range, it would be fine, and even allow for a slight bit of degradation over time. 

Most of my trips are >10 miles, so it seems like that range would be fine for me, but for this to work, DH really needs to be able to get to work and back sometimes.

So, of course you can extend the range by pedaling more and by reducing the amount of "Pedal Assist".  That 25 mile range corresponds to a relatively hilly ride, with the Pedal Assist varied between 3 and 5, also with the speed limiter removed and primarily at speeds >20mph with light to moderate pedaling.  Range will also depend on weight.  I weigh around 185lbs. 

A 22 mile round trip is doable, but might be pushing it with this bike.  You would want to be sure the battery is fully charged before leaving and you'd want to monitor the power level quite closely as you rode.  The Radpower bikes have a pretty good display that tells you the speed, power usage, and battery life remaining.  The battery indicator consists of 10 bars.  In other words, if you see 10 bars, it is fully charged.  Two bars would indicate 20% charge, and so on.  So, if the battery level drops faster than expected, you can compensate by reducing the pedal assist, which means you'll probably be going slower, but further.

One thing I will say is that the RadCity 5 has a pretty good "granny gear", so you can ride it up very steep hills even without power.  So, you probably won't get stranded, though it may not be so pleasant either.  There is also the option of purchasing additional batteries to extend your range, but be warned that they aren't cheap.  I believe the battery lists for around $500.

There are definitely bikes with better ranges out there.  I know that "Juiced Bikes" has a model very comparable to the RadCity 5, but that has a bigger battery and claims a range of 80+ miles. It's a bit more expensive, but may be worth it in your case.  Good luck.

IslandFiGirl

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2022, 08:06:37 PM »
I have two Lectric e-bikes, one is a step thru and the other is the normal bar between your legs. I highly recommend the step thru, it's just way easier to get on and off.

They have a few models, starting at $799 for the light version (not as heavy as the other bikes) up to $1,599 for the premium version which says it will go up to 100 miles on one charge.

I've had my e-bike for 3 years and I LOVE it. So much so that when I am out and about I have met so many people who want to ask about it and I've probably convinced about 10 of my friends to buy one. I have a rack on the back and a saddlebag set up that holds a ton of stuff. I used to ride it back and forth to work, never got tired. It truly is great. Even if it does not replace your car, it's a great thing to have, honestly, I use it as much as I can when the weather is good and I'll throw it in the back of my truck and use that to ride home when I drop my truck off for oil changes and such.

One word of caution...I never leave my bike unattended. Someone would steal it in a heartbeat! I've taken it to wal mart and it goes inside with me. There's not a bike lock I trust to keep that thing in place. It's purty and people want it. So that's something to consider.

I'm not a super techy person but I am in my 40's like you and a woman, so I figured my recommendation might hold some water. Let me know if you have any questions!

AccidentialMustache

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2022, 09:29:22 PM »
If you aren't used to distance biking, your butt will not that k you for going from 0 to 20 miles in one day. An e bike will allow you to go a lot further than your legs will, but will you be able to walk at the other end? Will you be willing to get back on the bike the next day? When we rented, we wore the same clothing we always wear biking, but we went about twice as far. We could not being ourselves to use them for anything more than a mile to breakfast and back and ended up taking the bus the second day. And even that hurt. You will both have to work up to using these for a 10 mile commute.

That strongly suggests to me your bike fit was wrong. When we moved, I went from 0 to 3.5 miles each way overnight and it was no big deal. Switched jobs and that went up to 5.some, again, even after winter when I wasn't riding (plows pile snow on the sidewalks/paths -- pass) it wasn't an issue.

YMMV of course.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2022, 09:41:14 PM »
My house has two rads, an original rad wagon (5 years old), and a radrunner plus (bought this year). They work well for us. DW has a different seat on her radrunner that was fitted to her behind at the bike shop (so it supports the sit bones properly) and I swapped in. I use the wagon's OEM seat without issues. We did add thudbusters to both bikes for more commuting cushioning from unevent pavement.

Agreed on the not-top-quality for the rads, as well as maintenance and possibly setup issues (the runner wasn't as bad, my original wagon had shipping damage. Easy to get them to fix but also taking a lot more apart to replace it.) That said compared to everyone else available in the US in 2017, they were inexpensive. Now they're only on the lower cost end for a "mainstream" brand.

Some of our local bike shops are snooty about working on rads. Others aren't. Worth considering if you buy a bike but want a shop to service it. I took mine in for a tire change after a puncture on the back wheel, because it is a real pain in the ass to get off on the v1 wagon and at the time I didn't have a bike maintenance stand (I do now and would likely DIY it).

The extra weight isn't so bad if the battery dies as long as the bike is geared hub or mid drive. Direct-drive hub motors are drag sources when not being actively powered and that plus the extra weight, it really sucks to commute like that.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 09:44:12 PM by AccidentialMustache »

ixtap

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2022, 09:45:21 PM »
If you aren't used to distance biking, your butt will not that k you for going from 0 to 20 miles in one day. An e bike will allow you to go a lot further than your legs will, but will you be able to walk at the other end? Will you be willing to get back on the bike the next day? When we rented, we wore the same clothing we always wear biking, but we went about twice as far. We could not being ourselves to use them for anything more than a mile to breakfast and back and ended up taking the bus the second day. And even that hurt. You will both have to work up to using these for a 10 mile commute.

That strongly suggests to me your bike fit was wrong. When we moved, I went from 0 to 3.5 miles each way overnight and it was no big deal. Switched jobs and that went up to 5.some, again, even after winter when I wasn't riding (plows pile snow on the sidewalks/paths -- pass) it wasn't an issue.

YMMV of course.

Adding 4-5 miles to a routine is very different than adding 15 to 20 miles...

gooki

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2022, 03:16:49 AM »
If you aren't used to distance biking, your butt will not that k you for going from 0 to 20 miles in one day. An e bike will allow you to go a lot further than your legs will, but will you be able to walk at the other end? Will you be willing to get back on the bike the next day? When we rented, we wore the same clothing we always wear biking, but we went about twice as far. We could not being ourselves to use them for anything more than a mile to breakfast and back and ended up taking the bus the second day. And even that hurt. You will both have to work up to using these for a 10 mile commute.

FWIW, it takes about two weeks of riding every day for your butt to get used to long distance rides. A quality seat can help speed this up.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2022, 10:11:56 AM »
<snip> 

When new my bike would get about 40 miles per charge, but by now it gets closer to 25 miles on a charge, which is the "rated" range.  The battery charger just plugs into a regular outlet.  It takes about 7 hrs to completely charge. 

<snip>



What does that mean? (That seems like a silly question, I know.) If I'm pedaling some, does that not increase the range?  Given that Dh's work is about 22 miles round trip, 25 miles seems to be cutting it close, but he'd likely be pedaling much of the time and using the "e" primarily for hills and to get going again from stops.  Of course it would be impossible to quantify how much pedaling vs "e-ing" he'd be doing, but can you clarify how this works as far as range and whether pedaling for at least 50% of the time (for example) would push that number up at all?  The last bit of his ride would be the steepest part, and that would be a terrible time to suddenly have 65 lbs. of dead weight to move.  If the pedaling wold add even another couple miles to that range, it would be fine, and even allow for a slight bit of degradation over time. 

Most of my trips are >10 miles, so it seems like that range would be fine for me, but for this to work, DH really needs to be able to get to work and back sometimes.

So, of course you can extend the range by pedaling more and by reducing the amount of "Pedal Assist".  That 25 mile range corresponds to a relatively hilly ride, with the Pedal Assist varied between 3 and 5, also with the speed limiter removed and primarily at speeds >20mph with light to moderate pedaling.  Range will also depend on weight.  I weigh around 185lbs. 

A 22 mile round trip is doable, but might be pushing it with this bike.  You would want to be sure the battery is fully charged before leaving and you'd want to monitor the power level quite closely as you rode.  The Radpower bikes have a pretty good display that tells you the speed, power usage, and battery life remaining.  The battery indicator consists of 10 bars.  In other words, if you see 10 bars, it is fully charged.  Two bars would indicate 20% charge, and so on.  So, if the battery level drops faster than expected, you can compensate by reducing the pedal assist, which means you'll probably be going slower, but further.

One thing I will say is that the RadCity 5 has a pretty good "granny gear", so you can ride it up very steep hills even without power.  So, you probably won't get stranded, though it may not be so pleasant either.  There is also the option of purchasing additional batteries to extend your range, but be warned that they aren't cheap.  I believe the battery lists for around $500.

There are definitely bikes with better ranges out there.  I know that "Juiced Bikes" has a model very comparable to the RadCity 5, but that has a bigger battery and claims a range of 80+ miles. It's a bit more expensive, but may be worth it in your case.  Good luck.

Thanks!  Knowing that the 25 mi range is with largely using assist, I think he'd be more than fine.  using it more as a regular bike, with assist for hills and opening acceleration, should be no problem.  I just wasn't sure how to quantify that, or whether that 25 mi was measured with light assist or heavy assist.  After he does it for a few times, he should also be able to figure out that he needs to be at 2 bars (or whatever) going in to the final hill, and can pace himself based on that.

Thanks again for the detailed info. 

Arbitrage

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2022, 01:05:37 PM »
I use an e-bike as my primary vehicle, having gotten rid of the second family car a couple years ago (with the preceding 3 years only driving about 500 miles/year).  I'm on my second e-bike now, with the first one now bequeathed to my wife.  First bike was a Juiced Bikes Crosscurrent S (hub motor), and I'm now riding a Biktrix Juggernaut (mid drive).

As you've already noted, range on the bikes is anything but fixed.  It's physics.  More power from you = less power from the bike.  More speed, more acceleration, higher weight, more hills (at a fixed power input from you) = lower range.  Also need to take into account the battery technology; lower temperatures will decrease your range just like electric cars.  Your range will also degrade over time, so don't buy something that'll require more than ~half the max range of the bike under the expected use case unless you're keen on replacing the battery more frequently.  My first bike battery gives me perhaps 40-50% of what it did when new.  Now, that's over 7000+ miles, but just something to be aware of.

You note that the last part of the ride is the most strenuous - a battery that's mostly empty will not put out the same power as a nearly full battery, as the voltage drops with the charge level. 

Mid drive motors are better than hub drive, but they can still be quite capable on all but the steepest hills.  You'll go more slowly, but still be assisted up.

A couple of other considerations as you narrow your search:

Cadence sensor vs. torque sensor (how the bike knows how much pedal assist to provide).  Torque sensing is much more natural feeling and better overall, but more expensive. 

Bike top speed - a "Class 3" bike will assist you to 28 mph.  Other bikes (technically Class 1) will likely only assist to 20 mph.  Class 2 is a bike with a throttle.  You can be both Class 1&2, or 2&3. 

Following from that - decide if you need a throttle or not.  Personally, I basically never use mine, but have always had one. 

As far as adjusting to riding the bike all of the time, what made the biggest difference for me was adding a suspension seat post.  When I started, my back was hurting a fair amount until adding that.  With the high speeds, the jarring impacts of city streets were tough for my body to absorb with zero suspension. 

Arbitrage

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2022, 01:23:53 PM »
Accessories/peripherals:

I do in fact leave my expensive, pretty bike unattended, and live in a city with tons of bike theft.  You need a good locking plan to do so.  For those who don't trust any locks, may I present the Hiplok D1000:
https://hiplok.com/product/hiplok-d1000/

I also have a few other accessory locks I use, and a heavy-duty chain and padlock for situations where a U-lock geometry is inconvenient.  Some people won't need all of this, but the solutions are out there.  If bike theft is a possibility where you will use your bike, do spend some time and money on bike security.

Bike capacity - you can buy a cargo bike with the capacity needed, or just add on to turn your bike into a cargo bike.  I use panniers on my rear rack, and then when needed I attach a trailer, and even add a large backpack if I'm really expecting a big load.  I'm a huge fan of my trailer for errands - Burley Travoy - a couple of seconds to attach/detach, and serves as a shopping cart that you can just wheel around the store. 

There are other threads that will expand on many other general biking advice as well, since I'm starting to meander a bit away from e-bike specifics.

Cranky

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2022, 01:35:30 PM »
Dh and I bought ebikes at the beginning of the summer and road almost every day until it got really cold maybe 2 weeks ago.

We went to a bike store and talked about what we wanted. We also tried out the bike rentals in the park to make sure we could still ride bikes as it had been a LONG time since we had done so. We picked out kind of mid range models and bought helmets. Our bikes do have throttle assist, and I have never used it; in fact, I've turned it off.

It's lots of fun and not all that exercise-y. As long as you keep your legs moving the bike keeps going, so it's just not very effortful. Really, we've ridden all over town (lots of bike paths here) and went to the grocery store and the library, etc.

We did end up buying baskets and locks, but that's about it. Dh would like to get a trailer.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2022, 01:54:09 PM »
Super helpful, Arbitrage.  Thanks!

I'm not overly worried about theft.  I mean, I'll certainly lock up the bike and will get a good quality lock, but it's not a major concern in the places I'll be riding.

I also don't care much about speed.  20 mph is fine.  I suppose 23 would be slightly better, but not so much so that I'm willing to pay more or limit choices.  I also don't think I'd need a throttle.  Until this thread (thanks!), I didn't even realize that was an option for an ebike. 

I think range is going to be my biggest priority.  Well, that and comfort, I suppose, but I think I can modify comfort with a seat and/or suspension seat post, so I don't know that I need to account for comfort all that much when shopping.  (I do want a more upright position than not.)

There are many ebikes for sale used on marketplace.  I'm wondering if it would make the most sense to buy whatever model I can find with a great deal (assuming it meets my basic criteria).  Even if it ends up being less-than-ideal, it might be a good way to test the waters to see if we will actually use it, and if we will use it enough to replace a car. 

AccidentialMustache

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2022, 10:49:41 PM »
For an opposing point of view, DW really really really likes the throttle to accelerate off a stop. OTOH, DW has also more than once accidentally triggered it when dismounted and gone down as the bike tries to rocket off.

When biking DS to school, I used to use it as well, because it freed me up to be doing other things than getting the bike going/balancing the start -- like watch traffic like a hawk and occasionally menace morons in SUVs who seemed to think their 5 seconds was more important than DS's safety.

Size matters. Cars respect the cargo bike more than my old un-electrified hybrid bike. How relevant this is for you, I can't say, and it is clearly anecdata.

But my house does find the throttle useful, so don't dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe... turn it off if there's a toggle switch to avoid accidental activation.

Metalcat

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2022, 06:24:40 AM »
For an opposing point of view, DW really really really likes the throttle to accelerate off a stop. OTOH, DW has also more than once accidentally triggered it when dismounted and gone down as the bike tries to rocket off.

When biking DS to school, I used to use it as well, because it freed me up to be doing other things than getting the bike going/balancing the start -- like watch traffic like a hawk and occasionally menace morons in SUVs who seemed to think their 5 seconds was more important than DS's safety.

Size matters. Cars respect the cargo bike more than my old un-electrified hybrid bike. How relevant this is for you, I can't say, and it is clearly anecdata.

But my house does find the throttle useful, so don't dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe... turn it off if there's a toggle switch to avoid accidental activation.

I've never used the throttle on mine while riding, but I do like it for walking the bike up a hill. There's one spot at my parking garage where I sometimes have to walk it up the exit ramp, and it's heavy, especially when weighed down with full cargo panniers. So the throttle is awesome for pushing up that little steep ramp. Or more like the bike pulls me along.

But yeah, mine has a switch. The throttle needs to be turned on, otherwise it's just pedal assist.

mizzourah2006

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2022, 08:31:02 AM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

FINate

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2022, 09:44:09 AM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

Hills, and getting a lot of mass (cargo bike + 2 kids + assorted gear) moving from a dead stop.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2022, 10:06:40 AM »
For an opposing point of view, DW really really really likes the throttle to accelerate off a stop. OTOH, DW has also more than once accidentally triggered it when dismounted and gone down as the bike tries to rocket off.

When biking DS to school, I used to use it as well, because it freed me up to be doing other things than getting the bike going/balancing the start -- like watch traffic like a hawk and occasionally menace morons in SUVs who seemed to think their 5 seconds was more important than DS's safety.

Size matters. Cars respect the cargo bike more than my old un-electrified hybrid bike. How relevant this is for you, I can't say, and it is clearly anecdata.

But my house does find the throttle useful, so don't dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe... turn it off if there's a toggle switch to avoid accidental activation.

I've never used the throttle on mine while riding, but I do like it for walking the bike up a hill. There's one spot at my parking garage where I sometimes have to walk it up the exit ramp, and it's heavy, especially when weighed down with full cargo panniers. So the throttle is awesome for pushing up that little steep ramp. Or more like the bike pulls me along.

But yeah, mine has a switch. The throttle needs to be turned on, otherwise it's just pedal assist.

I'm sure this is a silly question, but why do you need to walk the bike instead of ride it?  For a non e-bike, I'd guess it would be because the hill is too steep to keep going with pedals, so you need to walk, but with an e-bike I'd think you could use assist (or throttle) to ride.  Clearly, I have a lot to learn, so I'm asking all the stupid questions here!

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2022, 10:14:14 AM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

The reason DH is kind, maybe, possibly on board (ha!) for his commute sometimes is that it is a balance between a car and a regular bike.  He'd get some exercise but not arrive at work totally sweaty.  He'd lose some time on his commute, but not as much as with a traditional bike.  It's also a drive with some small-ish but steep-ish hills, with is probably the primary reason he doesn't want to do it on a regular bike.

For me, I'd likely be hauling stuff and my current conditioning wouldn't manage the hills with a bike full of groceries.  Well, it might on a trip where I'm buying lettuce and bread, but when I'm buying sparkling water and apples, not so much. 

DH has done a traditional bike commute in the past, when we lived in Germany, and he absolutely loved it, even though it was longer than his current drive. But his schedule is tighter here and the path less bike friendly/interesting. 

~~~

There doesn't seem to be a place around where I can go try out various e-bikes, which would be ideal.  I'm leaning more and more toward just searching Marketplace for deals, confirming the bike in question has the basics I want, and then jumping on whatever I find.  This might end up being a starter e-bike, but it would at least be proof-of-concept for our family.  If we need to sell eventually to change for something that has a few more/different features, we could likely sell for close to what we paid used, so this might make the most sense.  There are MANY e bikes on marketplace in my area, but sooo many brands and models, so it woudl require a lot of research to determine if each has what I need, and is a good price. 

mizzourah2006

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2022, 01:30:00 PM »
Hills, and getting a lot of mass (cargo bike + 2 kids + assorted gear) moving from a dead stop.

Ok, that makes sense. My kids are a bit older (4 & 7) so we typically use a combination of us all biking somewhere and switching out with the bike trailer. The furthest we've ever tried to go as a family was ~10 miles each way for a pizza lunch, so we could make several stops, etc.



The reason DH is kind, maybe, possibly on board (ha!) for his commute sometimes is that it is a balance between a car and a regular bike.  He'd get some exercise but not arrive at work totally sweaty.  He'd lose some time on his commute, but not as much as with a traditional bike.  It's also a drive with some small-ish but steep-ish hills, with is probably the primary reason he doesn't want to do it on a regular bike.

For me, I'd likely be hauling stuff and my current conditioning wouldn't manage the hills with a bike full of groceries.  Well, it might on a trip where I'm buying lettuce and bread, but when I'm buying sparkling water and apples, not so much. 

DH has done a traditional bike commute in the past, when we lived in Germany, and he absolutely loved it, even though it was longer than his current drive. But his schedule is tighter here and the path less bike friendly/interesting. 

Ok, so it sounds like the people that are considering this really want this to replace using a car for more than just single person commuting.

I have a few hills on my work commute, but it's really only about 400ft of elevation gain on a 13 mile round trip commute. When it was warmer I usually just changed clothes when I got to the office.

Metalcat

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2022, 05:48:23 PM »
For an opposing point of view, DW really really really likes the throttle to accelerate off a stop. OTOH, DW has also more than once accidentally triggered it when dismounted and gone down as the bike tries to rocket off.

When biking DS to school, I used to use it as well, because it freed me up to be doing other things than getting the bike going/balancing the start -- like watch traffic like a hawk and occasionally menace morons in SUVs who seemed to think their 5 seconds was more important than DS's safety.

Size matters. Cars respect the cargo bike more than my old un-electrified hybrid bike. How relevant this is for you, I can't say, and it is clearly anecdata.

But my house does find the throttle useful, so don't dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe... turn it off if there's a toggle switch to avoid accidental activation.

I've never used the throttle on mine while riding, but I do like it for walking the bike up a hill. There's one spot at my parking garage where I sometimes have to walk it up the exit ramp, and it's heavy, especially when weighed down with full cargo panniers. So the throttle is awesome for pushing up that little steep ramp. Or more like the bike pulls me along.

But yeah, mine has a switch. The throttle needs to be turned on, otherwise it's just pedal assist.

I'm sure this is a silly question, but why do you need to walk the bike instead of ride it?  For a non e-bike, I'd guess it would be because the hill is too steep to keep going with pedals, so you need to walk, but with an e-bike I'd think you could use assist (or throttle) to ride.  Clearly, I have a lot to learn, so I'm asking all the stupid questions here!

When I forget my garage fob, I have to walk the bike out the side door and the ramp is very, very steep, too steep to coordinate getting on the bike without falling over, lol.

Villanelle

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2022, 07:25:45 PM »
For an opposing point of view, DW really really really likes the throttle to accelerate off a stop. OTOH, DW has also more than once accidentally triggered it when dismounted and gone down as the bike tries to rocket off.

When biking DS to school, I used to use it as well, because it freed me up to be doing other things than getting the bike going/balancing the start -- like watch traffic like a hawk and occasionally menace morons in SUVs who seemed to think their 5 seconds was more important than DS's safety.

Size matters. Cars respect the cargo bike more than my old un-electrified hybrid bike. How relevant this is for you, I can't say, and it is clearly anecdata.

But my house does find the throttle useful, so don't dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe... turn it off if there's a toggle switch to avoid accidental activation.

I've never used the throttle on mine while riding, but I do like it for walking the bike up a hill. There's one spot at my parking garage where I sometimes have to walk it up the exit ramp, and it's heavy, especially when weighed down with full cargo panniers. So the throttle is awesome for pushing up that little steep ramp. Or more like the bike pulls me along.

But yeah, mine has a switch. The throttle needs to be turned on, otherwise it's just pedal assist.

I'm sure this is a silly question, but why do you need to walk the bike instead of ride it?  For a non e-bike, I'd guess it would be because the hill is too steep to keep going with pedals, so you need to walk, but with an e-bike I'd think you could use assist (or throttle) to ride.  Clearly, I have a lot to learn, so I'm asking all the stupid questions here!

When I forget my garage fob, I have to walk the bike out the side door and the ramp is very, very steep, too steep to coordinate getting on the bike without falling over, lol.

Ah, thanks!  I though there was some component of e bike use I wasn't considering.

jrhampt

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2022, 05:52:10 AM »
I don't think 20 miles/day is particularly long distance biking, but I do use a gel seat cover that helps preserve my butt at the beginning of biking season.  That or padded shorts should help if you're going to be biking 30-40 miles and it's been a while since you've biked.

Arbitrage

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2022, 07:53:59 AM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

I think I was being honest with myself that I wasn't going to go from zero (driving everywhere) to lycra warrior overnight.  When I flipped the switch, I had a 14 mile roundtrip commute in a car-infested hellhole with near-zero bike infrastructure.  E-biking made that commute far more palatable; I find them quite a bit safer when sharing the road with cars with your ability to accelerate quickly, maintain higher top speeds even on hills, etc. 

Plus, e-biking allowed me to wear work clothes on the bike in the cool early morning and avoid the shower at work.  I would wear athletic clothing and use a lower assist level on the ride home.  All told, my e-bike commute was about 5-7 minutes longer than driving in the morning, the same on the way home, and probably 45 minutes per day faster than a regular bike when you include the time to hit the gym, shower, and change.

Though I originally didn't aspire for complete car replacement, that's what the e-bike eventually became once I experienced what could be.  No way would I have done that with a regular bike.

mizzourah2006

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2022, 12:49:14 PM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

I think I was being honest with myself that I wasn't going to go from zero (driving everywhere) to lycra warrior overnight.  When I flipped the switch, I had a 14 mile roundtrip commute in a car-infested hellhole with near-zero bike infrastructure.  E-biking made that commute far more palatable; I find them quite a bit safer when sharing the road with cars with your ability to accelerate quickly, maintain higher top speeds even on hills, etc. 

Plus, e-biking allowed me to wear work clothes on the bike in the cool early morning and avoid the shower at work.  I would wear athletic clothing and use a lower assist level on the ride home.  All told, my e-bike commute was about 5-7 minutes longer than driving in the morning, the same on the way home, and probably 45 minutes per day faster than a regular bike when you include the time to hit the gym, shower, and change.

Though I originally didn't aspire for complete car replacement, that's what the e-bike eventually became once I experienced what could be.  No way would I have done that with a regular bike.

That makes sense. The biggest issue I do have is the sweating aspect. But so far it seems to be fine for me to just bring a change of clothes, I don't typically sweat enough on the way there to need a shower. I'm lucky that I do have good bike infrastructure. I have a greenway that drops me off basically into the parking lot and it starts right outside my neighborhood, so I'm sharing the road with cars for about a tenth of a mile tops. My roundtrip commute is about 13.2 miles, so in the same ballpark as yours. I've found that it depends on traffic, but it usually takes me about ~20 minutes each way via car and about 30 minutes each way with the bike.

One of the big reasons I'm considering an e-bike is to get to the gym on days I go into the office too. The gym is about another 1.5 miles further than my office. So if I incorporated that it would be about a 17 mile roundtrip commute. An e-bike would make that more palatable and probably shave off about 10-20 minutes from that total commute. Right now on days I want to lift I just drive, so I can get to the gym and to the office more easily.


SemiChemE

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Re: E-bike basics, please
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2022, 09:08:33 PM »
I've considered getting one for my commute, but I have a pretty good gravel bike I currently use and I'm having trouble rationalizing a ~$3k purchase to shave off ~5 minutes on my commute. Curious to hear from those that chose an e-bike vs. a regular bike for commuting. What made you choose e-bike vs. traditional?

Like others have stated, for me it was primarily the sweat factor.  For years I had toyed with riding my (really old) mountain bike to work, but I never did.  There are a couple of very steep hills between my house and work and I figured I'd need to allow time to at least change if not shower, especially, given the humid summers out here in upstate NY.

Also, I'm the farthest thing possible from a morning person and I just never could get the motivation until I bought the ebike.  For me the ebike was a game changer, erasing the hills and giving me just that little bit of confidence that I wouldn't peter out on the way in and wind up really late for a meeting or something.