Girlfriend difficulties - end it?

[EastCoastMike]

Wow... There are so many problems there.  She is parroting the same things guys say when they give excuses for beating their wives and girlfriends.  Unfortunately, your friend will find it just as tough to leave as a woman would in the same situation.  Physical abuse is only the most visible sign.  The emotional abuse is far, far worse. 

I would suggest at the very least a restraining order and most definitely end the relationship.  There is no excuse for one partner in a relationship abusing the other.

[Allie]

When I saw the topic, I thought it would be another "my gf wants to spend all of our money" posts.  Otherwise, I would have chimed in earlier!

Obviously, in the situation presented, the woman is abusive.  It's probably about 50/50 whether she will try to maintain the relationship by swinging the complete opposite direction and becoming the perfect girlfriend for a while or going total batshit crazy and trying to scare you into staying.  I'd vote for perfect girlfriend with apologies, sweetness, and calm behavior for a period of time...at least until she gets too stressed and he does something that's not quite right and makes her hurt him again.  It doesn't surprise me she seems lovely in every other way.  It really is classic abuser behavior.  Following him to bed is likely an attempt to reestablish closeness, intimacy, and a sense of connectedness as opposed to trying to be creepy weird and threatening.

I do have some experience in counseling, but I don't specialize in DV.  For what it is worth, I would recommend you end the relationship.  Recommend she get counseling but to help herself not salvage the relationship.  From friends I know who do specialize in DV, don't count on a fix.  Changing patterns of behavior like this, which are probably ingrained from early experiences, takes lots of time and effort.  A trip to a therapist for a couple weeks isn't going to cut it.  Sometimes going to counseling is just another ploy used by an abusive person.  "You have to stay, see I'm trying to make myself better because I love you so much." 

Take the time to prepare yourself for the exit.  Talk to a lawyer about how to get her physically out of your house.  Document everything that has happened.  Hide the valuables.  Expect that you will probably lose friends and work relationships because of this.  Do all that and then steel yourself against the onslaught of guilt, love, and promises that will likely be coming your way.  In the end, you will be better for it.

[lizzzi]

As many have said, you have to end it now, taking the safety and security measures--the legal steps, etc.--as advised. Just. End. It. Close the garage door on that relationship and don't look back. I am posting this just to help add weight of numbers to your decision. Don't feel bad about it or ashamed…abusers are very manipulative, and it can happen. A guy in his 40's is in the prime of life, and my best bet is that there is a nice person out there for you--someone whom you can have a very pleasant and happy day-to-day life with--and love and romance, too--, someone who will breathe out when you breathe in and vice versa, someone who--when the two of you are together--resonates with you and vice versa so that the "us" of your relationship is greater than the sum of the two parts.Someone who truly cares about you, is interested in you, and wants the best for you, and will help you achieve your dreams. How do I know this? Because I took a hike away from an abuser and met a guy who changed my world from black and white to technicolor. I wouldn't trade one day of our 20-year relationship, and if it could happen to me (at 46 the last thing I thought could happen was a happy, flaming romance and a long-term marriage)…it could happen to you. Like the commercial on TV says, "Because you're worth it."

[DollarBill]

MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO

This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!

[galliver]

MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO

This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!

Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!

[DollarBill]

MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO

This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!

Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!

They're not married!

[galliver]

MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO

This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!

Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!

They're not married!

You're saying they should have married before moving in and that would have made it better!

[pbkmaine]

Please end it before we read your obituary. Because that's what could happen.

[Melody]

You need to get out.
Pack a bag and sleep on a friends couch/your car/a motel.
Speak to a lawyer about how to evict her. She may of course take you to court if you didn't sign a pre-cohabiation agreement.  But she still has to leave your house. So get her out. In my country it's 60 days notice to roommates who don't have a signed agreement. Maybe it's similar where you are from. If that's the case, wait it out and then pay someone to forcibly evict her.
Keep it civil as you work together. Let your work know you'd like to switch teams (if you're in the same team), they are likely to accommodate it as they want good work out of you. If you're able to take a period of annual leave or unpaid leave, now may be a good time to do so, as you're unlikely to be able to work in a satisfactory manner with this stress in your life and you don't want to output unsatisfactory work and put your job on the line (I'm assuming it's not a McJob here).
Be kind to yourself.

[NewMustachian]

Agree with everyone who has encouraged you to get help leaving the relationship.  It is very worrying to say the least.  Can you post an update on how you are doing?

[Sofa King]

He should start to do things that will make her want to leave.  Don't flush the toilet again EVER.  Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere.  Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!!   :  )  LOL!!!!   There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.   

[thd7t]

MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO

This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!

Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!

They're not married!

Right, because abuse never occurs in marriage. /s

[Bob W]

He should start to do things that will make her want to leave.  Don't flush the toilet again EVER.  Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere.  Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!!   :  )  LOL!!!!   There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.

Love this idea!

[Bob W]

Pretty much have it in my head that OP is not leaving this relationship.   Men will put up with a lot of shit to get laid and have someone as a mate.

So maybe it would be nice for commenters to give some suggestions that actually work to vastly improve relationships.

I have given two --

1.  Harleys writings or blog site ---  "His Needs, Her Needs" -- Best realistic stuff on relationships ever and for everyone.
2.  Evaluating antecedents and inputs such as medication (often contributes to mood swings), exercise (best cure for depression out there),  foods (junk food and wheat = anger/hostility),  alcohol (leads to inhibitions), drugs, lighting (females especially prone to SAD) etc..

These two suggestions alone would probably be the only cure he needs. 

Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?

Hypnosis?  Anger Management classes?  (I have no experience with these two relating to angry outbursts) EFT?  Anything?

 Anyone got something that works besides run forest run?  We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year.   Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships.   We can make cars safer, drive safer,  drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.   

Even it he decides to leave (perhaps the ultimate in safety)  the advice will do him and all of us good next time.

[galliver]

We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year.   Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships.   We can make cars safer, drive safer,  drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.   

So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.

Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.

Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.

Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.

[Gin1984]

Pretty much have it in my head that OP is not leaving this relationship.   Men will put up with a lot of shit to get laid and have someone as a mate.

So maybe it would be nice for commenters to give some suggestions that actually work to vastly improve relationships.

I have given two --

1.  Harleys writings or blog site ---  "His Needs, Her Needs" -- Best realistic stuff on relationships ever and for everyone.
2.  Evaluating antecedents and inputs such as medication (often contributes to mood swings), exercise (best cure for depression out there),  foods (junk food and wheat = anger/hostility),  alcohol (leads to inhibitions), drugs, lighting (females especially prone to SAD) etc..

These two suggestions alone would probably be the only cure he needs. 

Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?

Hypnosis?  Anger Management classes?  (I have no experience with these two relating to angry outbursts) EFT?  Anything?

 Anyone got something that works besides run forest run?  We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year.   Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships.   We can make cars safer, drive safer,  drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.   

Even it he decides to leave (perhaps the ultimate in safety)  the advice will do him and all of us good next time.

There is no advice for someone who is dealing with an abuser, other than leave because unless the abuser wants to change, they just get worse. 

[Bob W]

We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year.   Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships.   We can make cars safer, drive safer,  drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.   

So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.

Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.

Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.

Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.

.          So no ideas?  Lame.  Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago.  Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of  freon with stop leak.  Still works fine.  In mustache world we fix things and use them forever. 

[DollarBill]

He should start to do things that will make her want to leave.  Don't flush the toilet again EVER.  Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere.  Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!!   :  )  LOL!!!!   There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.

Love this idea!

It's time to ask for a threesome with her best friend...yeah buddy!

[galliver]

We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year.   Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships.   We can make cars safer, drive safer,  drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.   

So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.

Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.

Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.

Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.

.          So no ideas?  Lame.  Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago.  Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of  freon with stop leak.  Still works fine.  In mustache world we fix things and use them forever.

Sometimes the cost of repairs significantly exceeds the cost of replacement.

And you can't change other people, Bob.  They can only change themselves. There are ways to get better at relationships, but they ate different for different people. Some need more assertiveness, others need to give a little. Some needed to express themselves, others to stfu. People vary.

Can't talk more. Going camping.

[Zamboni]

If the table were turned, no one would even suggest that maybe a lady should stay with a man who shoves her from behind, slams her laptop shut, and barricades her in the basement.  No one would suggest reading a book to make the relationship better.  Everyone would say grab your bag and head to the local battered women's shelter until the law can remove the abuser from your house.  Then change the locks and get a restraining order.

Why is it so different when a woman is dishing this out to a man? 

I ask because I had a friend who used to be in a relationship similar to that reported by OP.  His wife would throw stuff at him, hit him, spit on him, not let him sleep, and regularly go on tirades of verbal abuse.  Sometimes he would grab her arms to try to stop her from continuing to hit him, and then she'd really go nuts (that was typically when she would start spitting on him.)  Then she would play nicey nice for awhile and he'd think things were okay, but then it would happen over again but even be a little worse each time.  Of course she blamed him for "causing" her to act like that, which was crazy talk, but he seemed to internalize it.  He said he always felt like if he called the police that she would tell them some crazy story and he'd be the one who would end up getting hauled away.  He finally got out and does not live with her anymore, but wow it took a long time.

End it.  Period.

[Christiana]

Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?

Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com, the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it.  So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap.  Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes.  Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship.  (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?)  And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking.  She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.

I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.

[swick]

FIRST - OP, you have gotten a lot of great advice and support on this thread I do hope you will take some time to digest and formulate a game plan that will work for you. Also - please check in. You have quite a few people concerned for you.

So no ideas?  Lame.  Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago.  Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of  freon with stop leak.  Still works fine.  In mustache world we fix things and use them forever.

Bob Werner, while slightly off topic, your statement is so off base, I feel the need to address it. I know you like to offer contradictory opinions and shake things up on the boards. For the most part that is fine, but if the above statement is mustachain living/thinking all summed up for you, and that is the broad strokes, one size fits all solution, you are going to be painting with -  you are missing out or disregarding many of the ideals that make mustachian living so attractive and important. Things like:

 - Being able to look objectively at a situation and deciding when something (relationship, thing, whatever) is offering a diminishing or negative return and having the courage to let it go - despite you mental associations and attachments. 

If we were talking about someones relationship to a financial adviser taking advantage of them, or a car payment on a car they love but they have hair on fire debt - would you be encouraging them to keep either? Or an investment fund with a high commission? That is essentially what this relationship is -  a bad transaction emotionally, physically, mentally with a high cost attached.

 - Maximizing happiness and personal fulfillment  - Being able to identify what is important to us and maximizing the people/experiences and things in our life that feed us, while minimizing or removing the people/things that don't.

 - Constantly improving your skills and resiliency and and surrounding yourself with the people/experiences/community/things that serve your highest self.

 - Freedom to live a great life - While yes, most of the focus is on achieving FI  sometimes we forget the reason BEHIND doing what we do and it essentially comes down to freedom. To have the flexibility, financial cushion and insight available to make the most out of life - to seize opportunities as they come - to embrace an alternative to operating and living from a place of scarcity and fear.

[lizzzi]

+1000 for swick

[Bob W]

Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?

Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com, the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it.  So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap.  Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes.  Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship.  (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?)  And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking.  She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.p

I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.

.   Finally!   We have a winner!   I was hoping someone would actually point out the shit testing going on here.   Time to man up OP.    The rest of you, back to your politically correct boxes.  Lol

[Zamboni]

I'm going to have to disagree with the "Man up" viewpoint here.  For one thing, saying "man up" is pretty darn sexist.

It's not him, it's her.  Some women are bullies.  When it comes to physical bullying, any man who has been taught not to ever raise a hand to a woman is not going to be able to do much about it other than leave.

Please stop the victim blaming, people.

OP, I hope things are working out okay.

[lizzzi]

+1

[TrulyStashin]

Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?

Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com, the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it.  So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap.  Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes.  Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship.  (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?)  And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking.  She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.p

I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.

.   Finally!   We have a winner!   I was hoping someone would actually point out the shit testing going on here.   Time to man up OP.    The rest of you, back to your politically correct boxes.  Lol

The message here is "if you were a real man, you wouldn't be getting abused."  It is just a toxic as the abuse itself and will make it even harder for OP to take care of himself.   Do not do this to our friend.

Abuse warps the mindset of both parties.  It's not a question of someone being weak or not "manning up."  It's an issue of one person manipulating and controlling a situation so that the other no longer trusts his judgment and can't take care of himself.  He needs friends to help him regain his faith in himself and in his judgment and to support him through the mental minefield of leaving.   Telling him to "man up" is despicable.

[lizzzi]

+1

[frugalnacho]

Who cares if "man up" has the word man in it? I think it would apply equally well to a woman that is being abused by a man.  Just fucking man up and stop letting people abuse you - regardless of gender.  Man up and move on OP.

[FrugalToque]

Well, this is getting out of hand.

1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works.  Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses.  Please educate yourselves on the subject.  That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html

2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something.  There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't.  Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense.  Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.

3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here.  Passive aggressive is not the way to go.  This descends into madness.  There is no simple answer.

4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up".  Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways.  It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way.  I could go on.  It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.

If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.

Toque out.

[frugalnacho]

Well, this is getting out of hand.

1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works.  Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses.  Please educate yourselves on the subject.  That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html

2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something.  There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't.  Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense.  Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.

3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here.  Passive aggressive is not the way to go.  This descends into madness.  There is no simple answer.

4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up".  Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways.  It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way.  I could go on.  It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.

If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.

Toque out.

I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.

1.  I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone.  No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave.  He needs to take accountability for his own life.  If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE.  You always have that option.

4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points.  However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it.  When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender.  It's equally applicable to men or women.

[TrulyStashin]

Well, this is getting out of hand.

1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works.  Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses.  Please educate yourselves on the subject.  That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html

2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something.  There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't.  Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense.  Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.

3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here.  Passive aggressive is not the way to go.  This descends into madness.  There is no simple answer.

4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up".  Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways.  It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way.  I could go on.  It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.

If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.

Toque out.

I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.

1.  I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone.  No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave.  He needs to take accountability for his own life.  If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE.  You always have that option.

4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points.  However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it.  When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender.  It's equally applicable to men or women.

What you're apparently not understanding is that people who have lived in abusive situations are temporarily unable to be accountable for their own lives. 

IME, I was broken and I didn't trust my own judgment about anything.  Without close, daily support and encouragement from three dear friends, I could not have left.  My husband was telling me every day that I was weak; dependent; a loser.  If someone had told me to "man up", I couldn't have done it and the humiliation of failing to do something as basic as protecting myself would have merely reinforced what Husband was already saying to me -- I'm a loser.   

It's been 12 years since I left and I've worked very hard to be whole again -- lots of therapy, reading, and professional growth.  Nevertheless, there are still what I think of as permanent bruises on my psyche that cause me to react to normal situations in abnormal ways.  I have to adjust for this in my relationships.  People who know me now would be shocked if they found out I was a "victim" of abuse (don't get me started on how much I HATE having that label applied to me -- how humiliating!).

So, YES, your comment was the equivalent of fat-shaming and I am asking you to stop that right now.

On another note, "man up" does not apply equally to men or women.  If you really want a handy phrase that's the equivalent, then "step up" works just fine.  But don't apply it to anyone trying to find their way out of an abuse situation.

Modified to add:  Frugal Toque, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your post.

[hybrid]

1.  I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone.  No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave.  He needs to take accountability for his own life.  If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE.  You always have that option.

It really doesn't work that way at all too much of the time. Some people can't JUST LEAVE as you imply. I would kindly suggest you pursue some further education about abuse situations.

[Christiana]

A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed.  Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different.  In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools.  The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women.  This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like.  Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different.  Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.

If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do". 

[justajane]

I appreciate those of you who have shared your painful past stories of abuse. I truly feel like I have learned something and will have a more nuanced view of the complexities of this widespread problem in the future. Thank you.

[TrulyStashin]

A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed.  Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different.  In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools.  The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women.  This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like.  Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different.  Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.

If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do".

Sorry to be blunt but I have to call this out as the steaming pile of horseshit that it is.  Abuse situations always have a foundation of psychological manipulation and control that renders any physical difference between the parties absolutely irrelevant.  In Real Life, there is no difference in the psychological impact to a male v. female victim and that's how the abuser gets and maintains control.  Please get educated about the abuse dynamic.   "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft is a great place to start. 

When I was married (for 16 years), and being abused, I routinely referred to my husband as a very fun guy.  He was also handsome, charming, intelligent and supportive of me.  He was all these things.  In public.  Which made it all that much easier for me to believe that his private rages and insults resulted from something I must have done.  He didn't act like that with other people; if only I was a better ________.  Skillful abusers are usually lovely, funny, and outgoing.  They can also be kind, generous, and supportive.  They have to be in order to insinuate themselves into a position of trust and reliance.  Once they're wriggled into that spot, they work hard to keep their victim perpetually off balance and protect their privileged position as the powerful one in the relationship.  If the victim starts to see through it and pull away or get (mentally) stronger, the abuser will double-down on the mental tactics and usually work to isolate the victim from any support coming from outside.

Abuse always begins and continues as mental warfare -- inflicted on you by a person who purport to love you.  Sex, size, and strength are irrelevant once the abuser has had his or her way with your sense of self.   

Edited to add:  FWIW, as is common in abuse situations, my husband got physical with me only once and even then he never hit me (he threw me to the floor and sat on my chest).   The physical dimension of abuse is what people focus on, but that's not where the lasting damage is done. 

OP, we haven't heard from you in a long time.  You're on my mind and I hope you're ok.

[TrulyStashin]

A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed.  Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different.  In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools.  The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women.  This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like.  Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different.  Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.

If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do".

This is my last post on this and then I have to step away because I'm beginning to quiver with anger and outrage for myself and for OP.

Have you paused to consider that the man in this situation might very well have been quite powerful and self-assured 4 years ago when the relationship began?  And that the woman has systematically destroyed his sense of self so that she could manipulate and control him?

And now you come along and tell him that whatever treatment he's getting is because he's not powerful enough to be worthy of her. 

Seriously, I have to go punch a fucking wall or something.

[NoraLenderbee]

The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women.  This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like.  Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different.

If a woman is being abusive, it's because her male partner isn't strong enough, and the solution is for him to be more dominating? By that logic, if a man is being abusive, it's because his female partner is too ugly, and she just needs to make herself more beautiful. Puh-leeze.

Also, in spite of this (vastly oversimplified) "real" social hierarchy, unbeautiful women and wimpy guys have been happily marrying, mating, and reproducing themselves just as long as the alpha males and hottie females. I suspect there's more to attraction and relationships than simply being a he-man or babe. 

[coffeehound]

+1.

Thank you, Truly Stashin and Frugal Toque.  The amount of out-and-out ignorance and shaming on this thread made me hesitate to write in.

Abuse is based on psychological control, not size, sex, wealth, or anything else.  My abuser never hit me - but it took me more than 5 years after I left him to figure out (again) who I am and to trust my own judgment.  Those posters who talk about 'manning up' or 'just leaving' have NO idea how difficult it can be to do either of those things when someone has so messed with your mind that you really can't think for yourself.

OP - Please check in.  We are concerned about you.  Please ignore those comments on this thread that attempt to blame you for this situation, and get yourself some help to get out.

[RunHappy]

This is not a normal or healthy relationship.  This is abusive...domestic abuse.  Please  go to the police, get a restraining order, and seek help.  This relationship is wrong, please save yourself.

[FrugalToque]

I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.

1.  I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone.  No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave.  He needs to take accountability for his own life.  If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE.  You always have that option.

Yes, but it's important to note that the way to get people to leave is show them that they have a means of support, that they aren't to blame and that there are safe places to go where they will be respected.

Imagine that you've been abused.  You thought you were in love, you thought you were loved.  But the love of your life alienates you from your friends, one by one, then your family, one by one.  She undermines your confidence, lowers your self-esteem, picks you apart.  It's a slow, methodical and (in this case) emasculating process.  You find yourself devoid of initiative and you reach out for help.  Then the people you reach out to tell you that you aren't enough of a man ("Man up", taken literally).  How can that help?  I'm sure all of those types of posts are *meant* to be helpful, but are they, in this context?

Dude, Mr. Original Poster.  We're here to listen and we're here to help.  If we can find you a place to go, we'll do that.  You must have friends and family.  There are people who still care and will take you back and won't hold it against you.

4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points.  However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it.  When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender.  It's equally applicable to men or women.

A lot of it depends upon the context in which you've seen that phrase used in your life.  Mostly, I see it used against little boys when they cry.
"Why are you crying?  Are you a girl?" - actual quote from a male adult in his 50s to a 5-year-old.
If you'd heard "Man up" in that sort of context, could you see the damage the phrase does?  That's why I don't use the phrase and I'm very careful in raising my own sons not to use gendered insults like that.

Toque.

[arebelspy]

Thank you FrugalToque for writing all that so eloquently.

"Man up" to someone in a bad situation is not helpful in any way.

I hope OP finds the courage to do what they need to fix the situation or get out, one way or the other, because it's hard.  My sympathies.

[Beric01]

Thank you FrugalToque for writing all that so eloquently.

"Man up" to someone in a bad situation is not helpful in any way.

I hope OP finds the courage to do what they need to fix the situation or get out, one way or the other, because it's hard.  My sympathies.

I agree - I don't find "man up" a helpful statement in any type of situation at all. I think Guante's Ten Responses to the Phrase 'Man Up' spoken word video is an incredibly powerful piece of work regarding this statement.

OP - please let us know how you are doing.

[DoubleDown]

I'll repeat that I think the OP is likely the woman in the relationship, seeking input and advice on her own actions. And there's been no input or updates from the OP for a long time. Still, an interesting conversation and some good advice for both people.

[lizzzi]

Thanks to Frugal Toque and Truly Stashin for telling it like it is. Now, OP, where are you? We are here to help.

[TrulyStashin]

It took me a couple of years to get out.  This thread brought to mind one of the best things ever said to me during that time by one of the best people I've ever known.

"You have the strength of a young willow tree.  No matter what, you can always get to where you need to be."[/b]

OP, I'm sending you that thought right now and I hope it helps you as much as it helped me.

[Hummer]

The part about not wanting to leave because you are co-workers is slightly understandable but not good enough. You could inform HR at your workplace ahead of time that your relationship is ending and that you are hoping it doesn't become a problem in the workplace. You need to be open and transparent with all who could potentially become involved.

[arebelspy]

MOD NOTE: Discussion on addiction split off to here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/re-girlfriend-difficulties-end-it/

[Christiana]

I have nothing but sympathy for the guy in this situation.  He has difficult decisions ahead of him, and a steep learning curve.  What is going to make the difference for him here is being able to recognize, speak, and follow up on the truth.  The social hierarchy theory has had high predictive value in my own life.  He can test it for himself, if he likes, and see if he agrees.  Or he can adopt the "abused woman" narrative, but personally I think that is really lacking in truth in terms of his value, his potential, and his options.  He can even do nothing, if he wants. 

Also, in spite of this (vastly oversimplified) "real" social hierarchy, unbeautiful women and wimpy guys have been happily marrying, mating, and reproducing themselves just as long as the alpha males and hottie females. I suspect there's more to attraction and relationships than simply being a he-man or babe. 

Relationships at all levels of the social hierarchy can work well if the partners are well-matched in social stature and can  respect each other.   

Thinking about the woman side of the problem:  a diet higher in protein and fat along with regular exercise would be good for both of them.  There's probably a lot of self-medication with carbs going on; blood sugar crashes are well-known to destabilize mood.  Keep a log of moods and biological factors like meals and sleep, and see if there are any patterns.  I got the impression that she is pushing forty.  That means her options for leaving this guy for someone else have greatly diminished, and that is probably why she is staying so unhappily.  The guy could figure out her Myers-Briggs type, that might give him some insight in how to get through to her better with truth when he is ready to. 

[stripey]

Hrrm, I wonder whether if they'd met the OP face-to-face whether different things would be said.

Bearing in mind that the OP even used a different online username to ask for opinions, if you'd met the OP face-to-face and he'd/she'd mustered up the courage to talk about the situation and ask for opinions:

- Would you tell them to 'man up'?

- Would you tell them that they probably aren't the 'alpha male'? (As an aside, such descriptions of pack mentality in canids are several decades out of date).

- Would you them them that 'being whopped by a girl isn't a big deal'?

I hope in real life people respond to people asking for help in difficult situations with considerably more tact and compassion. I don't see why it should be different online- opinions (whether they are actually accurate or not) can still hurt quite a bit. I suspect given the way the opinons the thread has gone, that we may not hear from the OP under this username again. If you were them, how would you even begin to respond or comment to such opinions of yourself?