Author Topic: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies  (Read 11495 times)

Slowtraveler

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Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« on: June 21, 2018, 10:54:31 AM »
I know there are many badass women here who are independent and respectable so I'm asking here because I'm seeking how best to shift my paradigm into something more useful.

When a woman pays, I feel honored. I've never had a woman pay anything near 50-50, it's been 90-10, at best.

Right now, I just broke up with a girlfriend because she expected me to subsidize all her food and rent. I was actually okay with rent since I could plan it.

With food, she'd take advantage. Any time I went in the store for a dollar of yogurt, it'd multiply with her expressing no concern that she spends more of my money on food than I do, she gets whatever she wants regardless of price and throws a fit when I say no. She's paid for shared food in the last 9 month maybe 2 times at ~$3 each timer. Around 40% of my total expenses have been related to her.

This has steadily been cut back until I told her, I'm not comfortable covering all the food expenses any more. I'll still cover rent and gift food sometimes but I'm not okay with that as an expectation. She starts crying and saying she's better off alone if she doesn't have a man help her. Not even caring that I'm covering all rent/utilities.

I still feel resistance to letting her go even though I know it's best for my heart and wallet.

How do I shift my paradigm to finding equal partners? 60-40 is equal enough for me but every single girl I've ever dated feels offended by or strongly prefers me to cover nearly everything. Is there a specific way to approach this conversation effectively or is there something in me that I'm overlooking that attracts lovers who don't seek equal partnership?

rubybeth

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 10:56:41 AM »
How long were you "dating" before she moved in? Maybe find a girlfriend who is already supporting herself on her own. And wait to move in together until you know more about finances.

erutio

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 11:13:57 AM »
With food, she'd take advantage. Any time I went in the store for a dollar of yogurt, it'd multiply with her expressing no concern that she spends more of my money on food than I do, she gets whatever she wants regardless of price and throws a fit when I say no. She's paid for shared food in the last 9 month maybe 2 times at ~$3 each timer. Around 40% of my total expenses have been related to her.

This has steadily been cut back until I told her, I'm not comfortable covering all the food expenses any more. I'll still cover rent and gift food sometimes but I'm not okay with that as an expectation. She starts crying and saying she's better off alone if she doesn't have a man help her. Not even caring that I'm covering all rent/utilities.

Probably too early, but it needs to be said, this girl is a sociopath and be glad you got rid of her.

CNM

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 11:17:04 AM »
I do not know any women who expect this.  That is, of course, not to say that there are some who do, but it seems to be the exception.

Did you live together or were you paying rent for her separate place?

Zikoris

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 11:31:42 AM »
Probably the easiest thing to do would be to just never pay for anything for dates, ever. Separate bills every time. If they're not entitled, they won't care. If they are, and throw a fit or whatever, good riddance - you figured it out on day one rather than day 100.

As far as how to find women who don't expect handouts and support - try to avoid the really gorgeous, fancy hair, lots of makeup and designer clothes types, and go for more earthy, chill, laid back women instead.

It's also probably worth taking a hard look at what type of women you pursue now - how you meet them, where you meet them, and what makes you pursue those types in particular.

cchrissyy

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 11:32:39 AM »
next time you move in with somebody, or share any finances, TALK FIRST about a split that is fair to both parties before you begin. That may be 50-50 or it may be a different number based on differing income or other considerations.

also, don't date people who aren't already self-supporting for their own rent, groceries, and other basics.

joining finances with somebody would be a savings from both people's point of view. combined rent and groceries (etc) is almost always a win-win situation, not one person paying more than when they were single and the other person paying less than before.

edit to add:  think hard about how you got into this mess and what you can do differently to meet people who would never want or expect this.  like, was this person super young? maybe the lesson here is don't date so young. or were there red flags in character or behavior? how soon could you have noticed, if you had been looking out for it, that this person was not self-supporting? learn to notice it faster.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 11:34:51 AM by cchrissyy »

Tass

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 11:34:39 AM »
Wow. She sounds... spoiled.

I don't really know what advice to give you, neither knowing you in person nor being a man in that situation, but it seems like a bit of a bind. You need to establish your expectations more strongly ahead of time - it was the cutting back of something your ex had grown to feel entitled to that caused her fit here. I would also suggest, if you're not going to insist on 50/50, that you choose something more concrete than 60/40; whether that's you pay rent and everything else is equal, or you pay at restaurants but everything else is equal, whatever works for you.

I'm (female) in grad school and therefore my (male) partner makes like 4x what I do, and we split everything 50/50. (Everything we both use/own, at least.) We don't have combined finances, and therefore we both pull our own weight, and my career decisions are based on my bank account, not his. Of course, this impacts what we can afford collectively when he wants to do things with me, but that's what's fairest and works for us.

I understand that some women are apparently offended when men don't pay for early dates. I want to be with Zikoris on this, but if you feel that would narrow your dating pool too much it might be okay to pay for the first (especially since you probably want to demonstrate financial competence to attract a financially competent woman) - but you absolutely should impose the expectation of splitting things early on.

drachma

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 11:36:27 AM »
also don't try to impress people by buying/paying for things for them.

it's one thing to express yourself by giving gifts, it's quite another to be doing it out of some misguided sense of "proving" your worth to someone else. it sets up the expectation that you'll continue to do it. and also it means you might be lacking in some area of self esteem if you feel like nobody will like you if you dont buy them stuff.

I'm not saying this is you specifically. just something to be aware of to notice if you are doing it or not.

drachma

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 11:40:38 AM »
I'm (female) in grad school and therefore my (male) partner makes like 4x what I do, and we split everything 50/50.

this is how i like to manage things. in the past I've basically done 50/50 for living expenses but if there was some quality-of-life improvement or luxury that the higher-earning person wanted but knew the lower-earning person wouldn't choose to buy because of budget constraints, then the higher-earning person would just pay for it (or go without).

In my experience I've always been the higher-earner and that seemed like a reasonable and fair trade off. If I want something fancy, I get it for both of us or I decide it's not worth it and forgo.

Since I live pretty frugally, we usually match up closely on lifestyle expectations despite an earning discrepancy so it's not too crazy.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 11:42:25 AM by drachma »

FreshPrincess

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 11:43:18 AM »
Disagree with basically all of this. 

I had no problem paying when my husband and I were dating, but if he had refused to pay for anything ever, that would have been incredibly unattractive.  Relationships shouldn't be a test or a battle.  And he picked up the check on the first date because HE asked ME out.  Seems perfectly reasonable.

And I'd consider myself really gorgeous ;) and I think my husband would agree... I love makeup, I love nice things and I love my hair.  I love attention and I love to look pretty.  I'm still pretty down to earth and pretty damned mustachian.  Don't judge a book by its cover.

I agree with your last point.

As for any advice... pick better women.  Most of us aren't as you described.  I didn't need my husband when I met him - I still don't need him.  It's one of the reasons we work so well.  We have our own lives and hobbies and responsibilities... he just makes all of those things better and more fun.

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to just never pay for anything for dates, ever. Separate bills every time. If they're not entitled, they won't care. If they are, and throw a fit or whatever, good riddance - you figured it out on day one rather than day 100.

As far as how to find women who don't expect handouts and support - try to avoid the really gorgeous, fancy hair, lots of makeup and designer clothes types, and go for more earthy, chill, laid back women instead.

It's also probably worth taking a hard look at what type of women you pursue now - how you meet them, where you meet them, and what makes you pursue those types in particular.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 11:46:14 AM by FreshPrincess »

erutio

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 11:45:51 AM »
How do I shift my paradigm to finding equal partners? 60-40 is equal enough for me but every single girl I've ever dated feels offended by or strongly prefers me to cover nearly everything. Is there a specific way to approach this conversation effectively or is there something in me that I'm overlooking that attracts lovers who don't seek equal partnership?

Yes, you need a paradigm shift because you are thinking about it the wrong way.

When you are ready to date again and meet someone, there is no splitting of expenses, even 50-50.  You pay your own expenses, and other person pays there own expenses.  No mixing of expenses needed.
If you take her out on a date, you should pay for the meal because you can afford it and it's a nice thing to do. 
If she invites you over for a home cooked meal, you should offer to pay half of the food costs, because you can afford it and it's a nice thing to do.
If you invite her over for a home cooked meal, and she offers some money for the food, you should respectfully decline, because you can afford it and it's nice.
But for everything else, you pay for your expenses and she pays for hers.

By the time you are in a serious relationship and thinking about moving in together, you should have already had a conversation about expenses.  Any self-respecting woman should want to be contributing 50-50. 
Yes, there are many legit circumstances where it may not be split evenly (disability/can't work, she's in school, you knock her up, etc.), but in such circumstances, the topic of expenses should be brought up even earlier and a workable and proportional split be used.  At the minimum in such circumstances, she can contribute what she was paying for her own expenses prior to moving in together.

Once you are engaged/married/commited long term, things can go into all different directions.  The the conversation about expenses should happen early and before you move in together.



rdaneel0

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 11:58:47 AM »
What characteristics do you look for in a girl you want to date? I think you need to adjust your list because I'm guessing you are missing some seriously important traits and focusing on superficial things. Weed out the unqualified with these questions:

1. Is she hard working?
Not just at work (that's important too) but in general? Does she pitch in and help people without being asked or wait to be served and taken care of? Does she complain about and hate any form of work or does she feel gratified doing a good job at something?

2. Does she have integrity? Is her word good? If she says she'll do something will she do it? Does she have personal morals and values she holds herself to or is she only concerned with her own gratification? People who use other people have no integrity.

3. Is she appreciative? Is there ever enough you can do to please her or is there a constantly shifting goalpost? Is she gracious and vocal about her appreciation when you do something nice for her?

4. Is she generous? How generous is she not only with you but with her friends and family? How generous is she with her time and focus? Does she go out of her way to do kind things for others? People who are generous generally do not take advantage of others.

This is the really important stuff that goes deep into the heart of who a person really is. In my opinion this is far more important than having common hobbies or liking the same movies.

Zikoris

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 12:06:39 PM »
Disagree with basically all of this. 

I had no problem paying when my husband and I were dating, but if he had refused to pay for anything ever, that would have been incredibly unattractive.  Relationships shouldn't be a test or a battle.  And he picked up the check on the first date because HE asked ME out.  Seems perfectly reasonable.

Well, it's not a test or battle, it's laying out your expectations from the start. If you want a 50/50 relationship, starting out that way rather then 100/0 seems like a very reasonable way to do things. The goal is to weed out people who find the guy refusing to pay their way "incredibly unattractive".

FreshPrincess

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2018, 12:15:18 PM »
I love this.

What characteristics do you look for in a girl you want to date? I think you need to adjust your list because I'm guessing you are missing some seriously important traits and focusing on superficial things. Weed out the unqualified with these questions:

1. Is she hard working?
Not just at work (that's important too) but in general? Does she pitch in and help people without being asked or wait to be served and taken care of? Does she complain about and hate any form of work or does she feel gratified doing a good job at something?

2. Does she have integrity? Is her word good? If she says she'll do something will she do it? Does she have personal morals and values she holds herself to or is she only concerned with her own gratification? People who use other people have no integrity.

3. Is she appreciative? Is there ever enough you can do to please her or is there a constantly shifting goalpost? Is she gracious and vocal about her appreciation when you do something nice for her?

4. Is she generous? How generous is she not only with you but with her friends and family? How generous is she with her time and focus? Does she go out of her way to do kind things for others? People who are generous generally do not take advantage of others.

This is the really important stuff that goes deep into the heart of who a person really is. In my opinion this is far more important than having common hobbies or liking the same movies.

SilveradoBojangles

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 12:21:34 PM »
Yuck. She has clearly signaled that she is not interested in contributing financially to the relationship as an equal partner, and if that is something you want in your life, then she is probably not the person for you.

As for how you find this.... This is something that people signal pretty early on in dating. On every first date I've ever been on I've offered to pay for myself because I don't want to assume. If he insists, I accept graciously, say thank you, and then try to get the next thing - grab a round of beers, pay for coffee or dessert or something, just as a gesture of my appreciation. It's actually a test - if my paying for something really bothers the guy, he's probably not the one for me. I am intentionally signaling that I am looking for an equal partnership in the long term. As the relationship progresses and things become more routine, I just try to jump in when I can and pay my share. I've never had a guy complain about it. There was a time when I was seeing someone who made way more money than me, and he would intentionally pay for more things, but still let me pick up the tab sometimes.

So, make it part of what you look for early on in the dating game, and you will find it.


Russ

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2018, 12:29:30 PM »
spending money on someone is a great way to find someone who just wants you to spend money on them

Going out for drinks (alcoholic or non) is a great first date. Paying for at lease part of the date is friendly, good manners, shows interest, all sorts of good reasons to do it... but not the first drink. Offer to pay for the second round. It's equitable, keeps a good date going, and requires your date to prove they're in it for more than the free drinks before anything progresses.

This applies to any gender.

dragoncar

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2018, 12:49:39 PM »
Waiting for OP to return.  It's been literally minutes

elliha

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
I agree that paying 50/50 at the beginning is a good indicator if the person is willing to contribute at a more equal rate and don't expect the other person to pay everything. Once you are in a relationship I am a much more of an advocate for paying according to income. If one party has more income I do think that person should pay more. That way the power balance will be more equal because both are contributing at a level that matches their income. In my family I make more than my husband and we pay 50/50 for bills that are together. Then I pay anything that is only for me and he does the same and I pay roughly 60% of food costs.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 12:52:27 PM »
There are people that are just plain spoiled or entitled no matter what, and it seems OP has run into mostly those types.

OP, main thing to examine is what is it that attracts you to want to date a specific female? If she's a spoiled person, you should have had warning signs pretty much from the start - wearing fancy brand names, makeup/hair always a major concern and big $$ invested in looking perfect, lots of selfies/social media obsession, no real awareness of how to manage money/budget, and dismissive about budgeting/saving in general? Did you discuss her job much? Hopes/dreams/things she values? All of this should be discussed during the first few dates. But you know you were seeing this type of behavior probably from the start, and just ignored it.

Honestly, I can't imagine dating someone without being friends with them first, so for me I always dated a guy I already had gotten to know pretty well.

But mainly - how are you missing all the red flags that the women you're dating are going to be mooches? Mooches can't help themselves for very long, so after 3-5 dates, you should have a good feel for their personal values and noticed if they are expecting you to pay for everything every time and dump their asses by then. It never, ever, EVER should have progressed to you paying for even a dollar of their rent unless you were also living there, and they were grateful and helpful in some other way towards you to pay you back for the incredibly nice thing you were doing for them. The fact that your former GF argued with you or tried to make you feel bad about it? She is a giant piece of garbage using pretty terrible manipulative/nasty tactics  and she intended to make you feel bad so she could keep you in your place. If you ever feel that sort of feeling again or have a partner that ridicules you or throws a tantrum to "win" - DON'T IGNORE IT. That's a giant flashing red warning sign you that something is very fucky with this relationship and the answer is likely going to be leave the situation ASAP.

Every first date I've been on guy usually pays, but I don't order anything fancy.  I think it is actually a good idea for you to go someplace where you could afford to pay 100% at least the first time and pay attention to how and what she orders. Extravagance in a first date is bad for the type of partner you're looking for, so watch for those types of signals. I have always suggested after the first date (if there is going to be a second one) that I'd like to alternate paying so 2nd date is on me and then go on from there. I would have been fine with splitting the check too, but as a former server, it made more sense for me to just stick to the one check thing if I was pretty sure the relationship was going to last a while. ;)


Short answer for this tho... you want to find someone that's going to treat you like an equal partner, pull their own weight and not expect you to be their sugar daddy? Tell them up front what you are looking for - and if you do start feeling taken advantage of (which sounds like this was the case WAAAAAAAAY before you finally dumped this last terrible moocher), tell them that it's not acceptable and get out.


honeybbq

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 12:57:44 PM »


As for any advice... pick better women. 


Pretty much this.

 I expect equality and I give equality. I want a partner, not a sugar daddy, not a baby to take care of. I'm not going to rescue you and I don't need rescuing.

ambimammular

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2018, 01:00:32 PM »
You didn't mention if there was a large discrepancy between your incomes.

If you're making 3x what she does perhaps instead of thinking of spliting expenses 50/50, you should each contribute equal percentages of your incomes. If you make 90k and she's only pulling in 30k, the cost of $100 night out if going to feel pretty different.

If her take home money isn't much more than her share of the rent, and your fun money budget looks like her paystub amount, you're gonna look like an ass asking her to pick up the check. Did you choose your housing based on her budget or yours? Does a lot of her money go to debt repayment or student loans and you're rolling in cash? These are all things you both knew about each other before moving in together, right?

It's hard to know what kind of a person she is without more info on her financial situation.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:03:27 PM by ambimammular »

Slowtraveler

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2018, 01:07:29 PM »
I love the responses so far. Very insightful.

She fails the 4 questions posted earlier, that seems a solid indicator to tell early on, as well as seeing if she offers to pay her share early on. I'd find it stressful to have her be fun but then feel that expectation of me paying.

How to bring this up? (Posted in future post)

We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums.

We lived together except for 1 month when she had her daughter come into town and then I got a separate place and actually took care of her room as well so she could have more space for her kid.

Both mid 20's. I've actually enjoyed my relationships with women in their 30's the most but they tend to have different timelines.

I meet girls everywhere but I've tended to keep dating the ones who I find more attractive in terms of looks, connection, and having fun together.

She is definitely obsessed with her looks. Goes to salon for shampoo. Buys $100's of cosmetics each month. It gets annoying sometimes as she actually looks better with less make up. I got her to track her spending via Excel but she got off the band wagon in less than a month. She wants to save for her own business but she's fine trying to get me to pay $3 for a tea she could get for under $1 if she walked down the street for 5 minutes. So her actions don't align with her hopes.

She actually was already self-supporting when I met her but has a jaded view on men. She thinks gender defines who pays but says she believes in equality. Too many humans put up with this for a pretty smile and it's trained her to accept that as reality. I've heard plenty of stories of men having women pay their way but I'm clear that equality is what I'm seeking.

The not paying anybody's bills piece is something I really want to stick to. I found it frustrating that she wanted to travel across the country by plane and wanted me to pay her way. It didn't happen. I recommended the bus as it was much cheaper and she'd have her classic fit.

But what the hell is it that attracts me to her? Looks is a big piece but there's something else and I've been trying to figure out for most of the time I've known her. I know I can find a pretty girl who's far healthier psychologically so I'm trying to figure out what am I blind to in my situation. Our values are obviously misaligned.

My spending is less than hers. I spend less on food, I find cheaper rooms, I go without more often than her.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:25:17 AM by Slowtraveler »

Russ

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2018, 01:11:36 PM »
Very new to me and scared girls will run upon hearing that but I trust the value of human connection to extend deeper than money.

Why are you scared of shitty people self-selecting their way out of your life?
Are you that desperate that you'll take literally anyone and let them walk all over you?
This is the real problem, not the girls

rdaneel0

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2018, 02:01:06 PM »
I don't think you need to bring it up, the odds of that conversation going awry are dangerously high and what people say is often different than what they do.

I think you need to just get to know a girl and pay attention to what she does. Your issue seems to be ignoring red flags and thinking you can change someone. I see women fall into this with loser guys all the time. Instead of being attracted to the cheater or the abuser or the man boy (like my lady friends), you're attracted to self-absorbed women who feel they deserve one-sided special treatment.

Maybe part of you likes feeling like the "together" one in the relationship? Because it's less challenging in some ways than being with someone who might actually push you to be a better version of yourself? Just spitballing.


AZDude

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2018, 02:06:32 PM »
I would say first date, I would pay, but after that we alternate or pay separately. Never been an issue in any relationship except for one, and pretty sure she was a sociopath.

When I first moved in with my now wife, I offered to pay a disproportionate amount of rent since I made more money, but she insisted on going 50/50 and ended up getting a second job just to pay her 50% while I racked up savings.

That is not one of the top 10 reason I asked her to marry me, but it made the whole thing a bit less scary, knowing she was committed to being an equal partner.

cchrissyy

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2018, 02:13:38 PM »
Quote
We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums.

We lived together except for 1 month when she had her daughter come into town and then I got a separate place and actually took care of her room as well so she could have more space for her kid.

for future reference

3.5 months is VERY little time to date somebody before deciding to move in together. yes people do it and yes it might work out but it is far below average and it's part of what bit you here, so maybe give it much longer next time.

I don't need to know the whole story about how she doesn't live with her own daughter except when she comes to town and stays all month but there must be some red flags there. right?  either she lost custody or she willingly gave it up, both of which suggest some lack of normal adult functioning and priorities.


Quote
How to bring this up? Clearly by the second date if she hasn't already offered to pay. Before ordering, saying something like: "I value mine and my partner's independence. I respect women enough to believe in equality so I pay for what I get and you pay for what you get."
I don't like this line. I think you will happily scare away the ladies who want you t always pay AND I think you will very scare away self-supporting women who value equality and bristle at those words. 

you don't have to say anything. *show it*. This is about watching what they do and making your decisions based on what you see, and this is about women watching what you do and making their own decisions. It's about behavior not spoken words.  Smart women who want an equal partner are watching for if you split stuff equally. they want you to pay sometimes and they will jump in and pay sometimes, or they will want to put down both people's cards to split the bill equally. they are not looking for a guy who says "I believe in equality" as if he thinks that makes him special and they aren't looking for a declaration on date 2 of "I pay for what I get and you pay for what you get".  Here's all you need to say - "let's split this. ok?"   or  "You pay this one and I'll get next time, ok?"

formerlydivorcedmom

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2018, 02:20:31 PM »
You might want to consider seeing a counselor for a few sessions.  That might help you figure out what it is about these types of women that attracts you to them.  A few sessions of counseling is a lot cheaper than dating a few more girls who expect you to support them completely!

When I was dating after my divorce, I had a pretty good list of qualities I must see in a partner, and red flags that I didn't want to see in a partner.  I ranked them - some were absolute deal breakers, and some were annoyances.  I also only trusted what I could see, not what they said, because some people honestly believe they are living what they say....but they aren't.

I met my husband online.  He paid for the first date, but then he suggested we go get dessert, and I paid for that over his objections. (I literally nudged him out of the way to get my card to the cashier first.) It was only fair!  He said that surprised and intrigued him enough I got a second date.

I think he paid for the second date, too, and after that we alternated.   I'd pick one date (and pay) and he'd pick the next (and pay).  Since I outearned him by a lot, this made sure that we both got to contribute to the relationship, but in a way that made financial sense for each of us.  I would have thought it weird if he offered to pay for groceries when I invited him over for dinner....but it also would have been weird if one of us always paid and the other one never volunteered to treat.

CNM

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2018, 02:59:21 PM »
I can see, somewhat, that if you were living together as a romantic couple, the who-pays-what gets more complicated.  You are operating as a joint household, so things would be more jointly managed.  Like, are you buying $1 of yogurt only for yourself? Or can she eat it?  Do you eat "her" food?  What about meals you share together? 

Like other people have said, moving in together after 3.5 months is not a good idea.  You barely know each other, much less how each of you view complicated things like joint finances and obligations.  And, most of the time when mature people move in together, there is already a good understanding of how the finances will work especially with how rent and expenses will be split.

As for finding a more compatible woman, your post makes you sound like a very shallow person.  That's probably why you pair yourself with other shallow people.

Tass

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2018, 03:49:04 PM »
Just gotta be the devil's advocate here and say I know a very successful couple who moved in together after about 2 weeks of dating, though they'd been friends for a few months previously.

It took me over 6 years to move in with my partner, so I'm not saying that's for everyone. Just that I think open communication and healthy boundary-setting are more important than the raw amount of time spent dating.

That said - 3.5 months is indeed below average.

socaso

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2018, 04:20:45 PM »
"We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums."

The fact that she was having tantrums at all 3.5 months into the relationship was a red flag. That's a terrible manipulation by a partner. Perhaps in the future approach things more slowly and make a vow not to move in for at least a year so you have a chance to see their reaction to lots of different circumstances and really get a feel for their character.

A few people have remarked about looking out for someone who looks fancy (clothes, hair, etc). As someone who is considered fancy I would just like to say you really can't judge by appearances. I have a lot of clothes because I like to sew and I shop at thrift stores. I also wear makeup and like to have cute hair and on my first date with my husband I split the bill. If you take the time to get to know someone you will be able to tell the difference between someone who has reasonable habits and someone who spends hundreds on makeup every month (yikes!)


cchrissyy

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2018, 04:35:55 PM »
The fact that she was having tantrums at all 3.5 months into the relationship was a red flag.

ha ha, I quoted the tantrum line before but was too distracted by the content around it to specifically say this part! 

Nobody should be having tantrums in the early months of a relationship. It should be fun. Easy. Showing your best side. The honeymoon.

Nobody should be having tantrums in the later part of a relationship. We're adults. We express our needs in healthy and effective ways. We deal with stress and problems and life and death without throwing a fit at our partner or anybody else.

I was married for a dozen years and I am super happy to be saying that in the PAST tense. But even with all that time and the stress of a divorce I did not ever once throw a tantrum or observe my XH have one. It is not at all a normal part of a relationship and you would be well-served to consider it dealbreaker behavior if you ever have a date or friend or boss or anybody do that sort of thing.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 04:57:23 PM by cchrissyy »

robartsd

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2018, 04:41:24 PM »
First date: The person asking should expect to pay, but the person asked can offer to share cost.

Second date: If you're asking again and the person didn't offer to share last time then second date should be less expensive (perhaps you were entertaining above their budget last time). As you're still the one asking out you should still expect to pay.

After treating for two dates, only propose free events for additional dates until they show you what they're willing to spend financially in the relationship.

tyrannostache

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2018, 04:51:35 PM »
How to bring this up? Clearly by the second date if she hasn't already offered to pay. Before ordering, saying something like: "I value mine and my partner's independence. I respect women enough to believe in equality so I pay for what I get and you pay for what you get."

If a dude said those exact words to me on our second date, I would be really put off. Dates are complex interactions. If you invite someone out, it seems polite to pay (though on a first date I would pretty much always offer to split, or express that we'll take turns paying). Having someone state up front that he expects us each to cover only our own portions would feel awfully odd to me. Further, the way it's worded sounds like you are telling a woman how you expect her to behave rather than having a mutually respectful discussion or seeing how the interaction evolves.

Quote
I meet girls everywhere but I've tended to go for the ones I've found the most gorgeous, these are likely a mix of naturally beautiful with proper make up to amplify it. I think some online dating would help filter so I not only get the looks but also the internal beauty as well.

She is definitely obsessed with her looks. Goes to salon for shampoo. Buys $100's of cosmetics each month. It gets annoying sometimes as she actually looks better with less make up. ...

But what the hell is it that attracts me to her? Looks is a big piece but there's something else and I've been trying to figure out for most of the time I've known her. I know I can find a pretty girl who's far healthier psychologically so I'm trying to figure out what am I blind to in my situation. Our values are obviously misaligned.

This, especially combined with the previous statements, seems like very shallow, transactional way to view relationships--like a woman provides you prettiness to look at, and as a bonus you might also get to spend time with a nice and interesting personality, like these potential dates are checking a bunch of items off your list. I'm not trying to criticize you for wanting to find an attractive partner--that's basic human nature. But I don't hear anything about the kind of human connection or partnership you are looking for, other than the fact that you want someone who will split costs with you more evenly.

Zikoris

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2018, 05:09:45 PM »
How to bring this up? Clearly by the second date if she hasn't already offered to pay. Before ordering, saying something like: "I value mine and my partner's independence. I respect women enough to believe in equality so I pay for what I get and you pay for what you get."

I see what you're getting at, but this sounds really clunky and awkward. My boyfriend always just asked the server for separate bills as soon as we sat down. I think it's something to avoid making a big deal out of or giving a speech on. I don't think we ever had an actual discussion about it.

js82

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2018, 05:35:30 PM »
Very new to me and scared girls will run upon hearing that but I trust the value of human connection to extend deeper than money.

Quote
I meet girls everywhere but I've tended to go for the ones I've found the most gorgeous, these are likely a mix of naturally beautiful with proper make up to amplify it. I think some online dating would help filter so I not only get the looks but also the internal beauty as well.


A few pieces of advice:

1. Show more patience.  This applies not just to the moving in, but to the process of moving from going on a series of dates to thinking of someone as your significant other.  Ask meaningful questions of someone that let you understand who they are, how they think, and what their view of the world is.

2. Be more selective.  It sounds like you have a fairly easy time meeting women.  Raise your own standards.  Set tougher criteria than "has a pretty face", and wait until you meet someone who meets most of the major things you are looking for before rushing headlong into a relationship.  (Also: See #1)

3. Score-keeping is stupid.  Don't think of it in terms of 50-50, 90-10, etc. *Do* think of it in terms of both partners making a meaningful effort to contribute to the relationship - and not just in the financial sense.  The numbers are less important than the effort - and it sounds like the effort was missing in the case of your most recent ex.  I've been in relationships where my partner made much less than me and hence I footed the vast majority of the expenses, and in ones where incomes and financial contributions were nearly equal (or close enough - I wasn't keeping score).  Regardless of incomes. it really came down to both partners making the effort to contribute to the relationship - financially, emotionally, and otherwise.  Equality of numbers is less important than both partners making genuine effort.

4. Discuss finances before moving in together.  Don't be stupid.


Regarding #1 and #2 above: there is a price for setting your standards high and looking for more than just a pretty face in a partner: You may spend a lot more time looking for the right person, as opposed to in a relationship/fooling around with someone you're not particularly compatible with.  If you're in a smaller town like I am, this may mean that even dates themselves are not a regular occurrence.  However if you approach it with the right mindset, it also guarantees that the people you end up meeting and getting to know(even if you don't end up in a relationship with them) will be incredibly fascinating people that are worth the time to find.

...And if you'd rather not spend the time doing that, by all means continue dating, but DO NOT entertain the idea of moving in with someone until you have the emotional maturity to do the above.

CalBal

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2018, 05:41:27 PM »
We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums.

The fact that there were any tantrums at all, ever, is the first red flag, and it is a big one, and the first time it happened should have been the last (as in, relationship over). You don't gloss over shit like that because they are fun to be with the rest of the time. I once dated (a few times) a guy who once, at a restaurant, refused to leave any tip because the hostess messed up and didn't seat him right away upon telling them someone was already there waiting for them (the hostess was mistaken and thought they weren't there yet). There was no reason, whatsoever, to not tip the server. That was the last date we had, as I don't suffer fools. (FWIW, I left a tip to cover the entire bill, because that guy was a jackass.)

Also, saying you only date people who are very attractive - I agree with CNM, that comes across as very shallow.

CalBal

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2018, 05:46:51 PM »
We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums.

The fact that there were any tantrums at all, ever, is the first red flag, and it is a big one, and the first time it happened should have been the last (as in, relationship over). You don't gloss over shit like that because they are fun to be with the rest of the time. I once dated (a few times) a guy who once, at a restaurant, refused to leave any tip because the hostess messed up and didn't seat him right away upon telling them someone was already there waiting for them (the hostess was mistaken and thought they weren't there yet). There was no reason, whatsoever, to not tip the server. That was the last date we had, as I don't suffer fools. (FWIW, I left a tip to cover the entire bill, because that guy was a jackass.)

Also, saying you only date people who are the most gorgeous- I agree with CNM, that comes across as very shallow.

ETA: Obviously we should be attracted to people we date, but maybe focus more on their actions and personality and less on looks. This is a conscious decision.


Noodle

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2018, 05:59:54 PM »
The best way to get a partner who has similar values to you is to demonstrate those values as early as possible in the dating process. If you want someone who contributes equally, act as if that were a given and see how they react. You don't have to make a big deal of it. What this might look like:

Date 1--Asker pays. I wouldn't read anything into whether your date volunteers to contribute or not--the social code around this is very unclear and honestly a woman may have had equally negative reactions in the past from a date over offering to split or not offering to split the tab.

Date 2--Asker probably pays, but askee may very well offer to contribute. You can accept or not, but say, "For next time, do you like to split the tab or take turns paying on dates?" If she doesn't offer, you'll have to ask when the next date is being negotiated. Her reaction will tell you a lot.

If the relationship goes forward, you can figure out what equality looks like. Maybe you split the tab. Maybe one person does most of the cooking when you hang out, so the other one picks up some bags of groceries. Maybe if you have income differences, you take turns and each plan what you can afford. If one person has extra expenses related to dating (like hiring a babysitter) maybe the other one tries to balance it out in some way, or contribute. How you negotiate is as important as what you decide, because a relationship that's going to turn into something long-term is going to involve a lot of joint decision-making and you want to know what that person is like to deal with. Is she generous? Does she listen to your point of view? Does she change her mind sometimes, and stick to her guns when she isn't convinced?

And in 99% of cases, 3.5 months is way too soon to move in with someone, especially someone with a child in residence for any amount of time. Moving in isn't a way to try out a relationship (or to solve someone's logistical or financial problems), it's for a relationship that's already solid. There are just too many consequences if you get it wrong.

NewPerspective

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2018, 06:32:57 PM »
I always find these conversations interesting.

My husband and I started dating when I was 25 and he was 30. We married two years later (I'm 41 now).  If he had of brought up or insisted that I pay I don't think I would have continued dating him.  Added to this, I am probably what most mustachians would consider "high maintenance".   I wear make up, get my hair cut and highlighted regularly, dress fashionably, heels, some trendy things, etc.  My husband feels like I'm a catch.  :-)  So according to a lot of the posts that I've seen on this and related topics I would be the type you would absolutely want to avoid.

I asked him tonight if he remembers if I ever paid in the beginning.  He couldn't really remember and neither can I but I suspect I didn't pay (much).  Also, when we moved in together I had 18k in credit card debt and student loans (another "red flag").  We worked together to pay off the credit card debt within a year and the student loans a few years later.

I found MMM many years ago and have taken a very active role in managing our finances. I can't say we are total converts but we are much better than we used to be and I think I can take a lot of that credit (we have absolutely no debt).   He has always been the primary earner but I've always had a job with the exception of an international move where I couldn't work (he has said many times he wouldn't care if I didn't work).

If I were single today, I doubt I would date someone that wouldn't pay in the beginning or even brought it up (but I certainly wouldn't expect expensive dates). In no way am I mooch though.  In fact I've told my husband he can quit his job at anytime and we can live off my salary.  I make enough and our life is structured so that we could easily live on my earnings.

All this to echo what an earlier poster said, dating is complex.  It probably helps to know why someone wants you to pay.  In my case, it is not at all about getting a free meal or anything like that.  I guess it comes down to feeling like that is how a man shows me I am valued. Maybe that is shallow but I think it is a pretty deeply ingrained thing.  Probably goes back to that 5 languages of love theory. 

Also people evolve, I would never ever have 18k in credit card debt now!

CalBal

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2018, 06:50:26 PM »

We dated 3.5 months before living together. There were some red flags but I looked over them since we had a really good time together when she wasn't having her tantrums.

The fact that there were any tantrums at all, ever, is the first red flag, and it is a big one, and the first time it happened should have been the last (as in, relationship over). You don't gloss over shit like that because they are fun to be with the rest of the time. I once dated (a few times) a guy who once, at a restaurant, refused to leave any tip because the hostess messed up and didn't seat him right away upon telling them someone was already there waiting for them (the hostess was mistaken and thought they weren't there yet). There was no reason, whatsoever, to not tip the server. That was the last date we had, as I don't suffer fools. (FWIW, I left a tip to cover the entire bill, because that guy was a jackass.)

Also, saying you only date people who are the most gorgeous- I agree with CNM, that comes across as very shallow.

ETA: Obviously we should be attracted to people we date, but maybe focus more on their actions and personality and less on looks. This is a conscious decision.


Slowtraveler

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2018, 08:38:04 PM »
I knew the first iteration was rough but that was wisdom from the first series of posts. Seeing how she behaves/ simply asking to split next time feels better. I'm not adamant on 50-50, feeling that she contributes meaningfully is most important. Even in having spent most of the money, some girlfriends I felt were doing their best to contribute and it felt enough. "Let's split this" feels more concise and portrays the same concept with less awkwardness. I get this time and you get next time feels simple and workable. The first few posts talking about simply each covering our own expenses is dream-like to me with a high quality partner. It's alien to me in practice so integrating it into my life takes some refinement.

Actions > Words
I've also had the experience of someone professing to counter or be aligned with my beliefs and then act opposite what they said.

I let go of more physically attractive girls for this one since I didn't feel a spark with others as much. I've also had radically honest girlfriends which I massively appreciate, all have been open to nature, cooking together, bubbly/sweet, spirituality or science, family. Looks isn't enough for a relationship. Without a connection, dating gets boring very fast.

I've let many shitty people out of my life but setting up a conscious pattern of behavior so they self-select out is a new concept to me.

I offered her some of the yogurt but she wanted cookies and chocolates instead, no need for personal attacks, plenty of warm and wise responses here show that others see the complexity of relationships.

The tantrums are a huge red flag. Manipulative and childish. Don't move in so fast next time, it was rushed and an attempt to get to know her better. I'm likely moving soon so that will help.

This is a thread for me to understand better how to handle the financial piece of a relationship. I want a lot more than that but writing my entire view on what I want from a relationship would make this confusing. We're limited to the medium of a thread where I'm asking a specific question and I wanted to cover this specific piece of a relationship. More specifically: I want someone emotionally stable, sweet, intelligent, lightly active/into nature, into science, sober, into travel, who values family, is honest, attractive to me, who I can share long deep conversations where I truly understand them and feel understood/heard, who loves people, is comfortable in relationship, and can fully accept/give love. Dealbreakers are drug abuse, hurts animals/people, now screams out of anger/tantrums for things, heavy debt is okay if they're actively tackling it, seeking husband/kids too early, is disrespectful or violent, emotionally unstable.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:24:12 AM by Slowtraveler »

remizidae

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2018, 09:38:58 PM »
I've never had a woman pay anything near 50-50, it's been 90-10, at best.

Do you have a tendency to date women who are younger? Lower-income? Unemployed? There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but if you want to change the dynamic, seek out older women with more lucrative careers than yours.

Also: people do what they can get away with. There must have been a time when you offered or she asked for you to pay her rent, and you agreed. How did that happen? Why are you okay with that? Do you understand that most people would say no to that? Would you be able to say no next time?

As others have said, you can tell fairly early on whether she's a taker or not. If you pay for something, does she reciprocate in some way or seem to take it for granted? Is she accustomed to living on her own and managing her own life? If you talk about budgeting or financial plans, is she on the same page, knowledgeable and on top of things, or is her financial plan "someday my Prince will come?"

Filter out the mooches early, and you'll have a better chance at finding a quality woman.

Hirondelle

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2018, 04:10:34 AM »
Slowtraveler; I remember you mentioned before that you had moved to Asia and felt better there. So my first thought was "Is she Asian?" (as in Asian-Asian, not American with Asian blood).

Not because there's anything wrong with Asians, but in that case you might have run into a big cultural difference. I've lived in Asia too and even when just hanging out with guys (Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian - for reference) in a non-dating way, they always insisted on paying. Even if it was expensive. Even if I earned more than them. Even if I had 0 interest in them. Even if I had a boyfriend. They also always wanted to take over if I had to carry something moderately heavy. It's not because she isn't responsible or doesn't know how to handle money, it's because she just expects a man to take care of her because that's the general way things are arranged in her culture. If you're a white men that's most likely earning more than her, these expectations might even get higher.

Note: This does not justify the manipulative behavior and the crying. Also if she's not Asian, this explanation doesn't make any sense at all :)


chasesfish

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2018, 05:22:47 AM »
This my be a really naieve comment, mainly because I read people daily in a professional environment and haven't "dated" in over 15 years....but I spent a lot of time around people in their 20s/30s professionally.  Aren't there just obvious red flags you can pick up on?   How much money do you think is spent on appearance, clothing, cars, handbags?  Just a random thoughts, especially since I pulled up at the gym yesterday and parked to a mid-30s lady in a Mercedes that said "sparkly", an expensive handbag, unnatural hair color, and fake nails. 

All I could think was "holy hell, if I'm dating those are huge red flags!"

Rant over...and apologize in advance if I offended anyone.

Mini-Mer

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2018, 07:45:23 AM »
Like Hirondelle, I wondered if you are dating people who are working out of a different cultural rulebook for dating/partnering.  The relationship you describe would be entirely bizarre in my (middle-class American) social circle.

I'd suggest, pretty early on, try to get a sense of what culture you're operating in.  What do your date's family's and friends' lives look like?  How long did they date before moving in together, getting engaged, getting married, etc.?  Do they do things in a different order (live together before dating, marry before living together?)  That won't necessarily tell you what your date wants for herself, but it should give you some idea of what she considers normal.

Maenad

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2018, 07:57:22 AM »
All this to echo what an earlier poster said, dating is complex.  It probably helps to know why someone wants you to pay.  In my case, it is not at all about getting a free meal or anything like that.  I guess it comes down to feeling like that is how a man shows me I am valued.

This kind of discussion is fascinating, because I'm almost the exact opposite. DH paying for everything would make me feel condescended-to, and our paying everything 50:50 was a huge sign of respect for my ability to take care of myself.

This isn't to say that either position is "correct", but more to observe that it's critically important to find someone who complements our viewpoints.

I think one can suss out another's ability to take care of themselves. It's not so much whether a woman spends a lot on her appearance, but more of her ability to afford it. It really boils down to how much is being spent on today and how much is being saved for tomorrow, and you can get a pretty good estimate from watching how a woman spends versus knowing what her occupation is and roughly how much that pays.

Also, propose cheaper dates. Go to a free museum and then out for ice cream, or have a picnic in a park. Does she consider something "cheap" that you feel is simple and relaxing? Does she value an expensive restaurant more than the effort of a good home-cooked meal? All of these are clues.

When DH and I started dating in college he shared with me his "standard seduction meal", which was simply good homemade spaghetti and one of those no-bake "cheesecakes". Nothing fancy, but shows the effort he was willing to put in to a relationship, even when broke. Definitely a keeper!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2018, 08:04:13 AM »
Do they do things in a different order (marry before living together?)

Just to be a little OT, this used to be the norm in Western (well, North American) culture.

CNM

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2018, 09:26:38 AM »
@Slowtraveler - My only insight into the relationship is what you post.

When you say that,
     "I meet girls everywhere but I've tended to go for the ones I've found the most
      gorgeous, these are likely a mix of naturally beautiful with proper make up to
      amplify it. I think some online dating would help filter so I not only get the looks
      but also the internal beauty as well," 

it certainly sounds like you place the highest value on what a person's outward appearance looks like.  Hence, the comment about shallowness. 

Sure, being physically attractive is important and good, but in my experience, it's pretty quick to take 2nd place to personality and compatibility overall.  Very quick.  Like 2nd/3rd date or talk on the phone quick.  Personality/compatibility is what makes a relationship a relationship, not beauty.

It just sounded to me like you were... overwhelmed... with the physical beauty aspect of your girlfriend such that you easily overlooked the compatibility aspect.  Of course, I hope I am wrong.
 

Edited to fix typo.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:47:53 AM by CNM »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2018, 10:27:48 AM »
Hypergamy is extremely prevalent in most cultures. It's blatantly obvious in certain cultures (ie SE Asia per OP), or disguised as "traditional" or "old fashioned" (per @NewPerspective) in places like the USA.




J Boogie

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Re: Girlfriend (Ex) Expect(ed) Subsidies
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2018, 02:22:35 PM »
I wouldn't have been too surprised.

Looks & Money are the shallow things that men and women seek/have to offer in relationships.

You get her Looks, she gets your Money. Gross, isn't it? Tragic for women because their youthful beauty diminishes as as investments grow (unless all the money is squandered). Divorces are common for people who entered into relationships like this - The guy is looking for better arm candy, and the woman doesn't have to be with a crusty old guy to have his money.

It's good that you've had this experience. If you're a smart woman, stay away from men that flaunt their money. If you're a smart man, stay away from women that invest tons of energy into their appearance. If they're naturally beautiful and stylish it might be difficult to differentiate them from their shallow counterparts at first - but their conversations, their purchases, their instagram feed (or lack thereof), and the way they spend their free time will make it easy.

You're looking for someone to love, not someone to use. Remember that and good luck!