Author Topic: Getting married.. dilemma  (Read 1444 times)

force majeure

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Getting married.. dilemma
« on: May 29, 2025, 11:41:33 AM »
I am getting married later this year.
There are a few alarm bells ringing for me.
We are coming from 2 different backgrounds, and especially attitudes towards money.
She says I feel wealthy by having a lot of money, cash and investments.
She feels wealthy by spending money.
I am retired.. she still needs to work.
I admit that she has poor money management skills, and I am tighter than 2 coats of paint.
She owns a house.. I do not.

Is there anyway this will work?

GilesMM

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2025, 11:52:04 AM »
In most cases, the alarms bells sounding before marriage get quit a bit louder after marriage. Looking back, one can see the early warning signs which were ignored.

I guess if she is only spending her own money, there is no issue, right?


Did you all have a frank discussion about money BEFORE getting engaged?  If not, some ground rules need to be set ASAP.

GuitarStv

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2025, 12:17:44 PM »
Sure it could work.  Or it could be catastrophe.

Marriage brings two different people together into one unit.  This includes many differences . . . ideas about children and child rearing, money and investment, free time, sex, behaviour, cleanliness, household jobs/chores, communication styles, emotional hang-ups.  Because there will never be a perfect match between any two people, the most important thing you can do is communicate and discuss everything in a fair and non-judgemental way with your partner.  Compromises, boundaries, and agreements all need to be fleshed out long before marriage.  There needs to be give and take.  And there needs to be a realization that as people change over time and circumstances, these discussions will need to be ongoing and a healthy part of going through live together as a couple.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2025, 12:23:45 PM »
Serious question, why are you getting married? I'm not sure I'd do it again and I have a fantastic relationship (no interest in leaving my partner). I just don't see the point. Sure it makes a few things easier and offers some protections maybe a small tax benefit in the US. If you are concerned with losing significant assets, why would you willingly enter a contract that might (I don't know if it will, you didn't provide that much info) harm you financially and likely leave you resentful. You can still love one another, share housing, a full life, put each other in your wills, heck you can even tell everyone you are married, call one another spouse etc. But if I were your fiancée I'd be like, if you don't want to get married, let's not, we can still hang. Or maybe you just need more time to have the tough conversations and work out the details with her.

force majeure

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2025, 12:27:29 PM »
I am based in Ireland.
Its the only game in town, when it comes to tax planning... otherwise the partner loses 33% in tax on death.
Listen, we know each other well, for the last 7 years, and we dont argue rarely, and theres love.


Sibley

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2025, 12:28:32 PM »
Pause the wedding for now. You two need to have some extended conversations about money, and very possibly about religion and kids before you proceed. If a 3rd party will be helpful, get a counselor to help you through these conversations. Cancelling a wedding is way cheaper and easier than getting divorced.

Metalcat

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2025, 12:29:07 PM »
Pre-marriage counselling is a very good idea before getting into a contractual agreement with someone that you aren't aligned with yet with respect to the terms of that contract. Because make no mistake, marriage law is primarily financial in nature.

Marriage can mean to you as a couple whatever it means, but the contract you sign that is enforceable by a court of law is very, very much a financial agreement.

It's a bad idea to sign a contract you aren't in enthusiastic agreement with. So if you don't have the communication skills to navigate this issue to find common ground, get professional support in doing so.

Laura33

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2025, 12:31:05 PM »
Well of course there are ways this can work.

There are also ways this can crash and burn spectacularly.

The best determiner I know for the ultimate success or failure of a relationship is not the how alike the couple is, but how the couple manages their inevitable disagreements. 

If you both think your views are "right," that means that by definition you think the other person's views are "wrong."  And that means that you are likely either (1) believing you can convince the other of the error of their ways, or (2) planning to tolerate their wrong-ness.  Neither option has any real likelihood of success.

The way things do work is if you go into things with a fundamental belief that each of your money attitudes is a response to whatever history created it, that the habit/approach serves a purpose to the person involved, and -- most critically -- that that purpose is a legitimate need.  A relationship cannot succeed if it does not meet the needs of both parties -- and you cannot meet someone's needs when you do not believe, at a deep level, that that need is legitimate and worthy of your time and effort. 

Note that you do not have to agree that the specific money habit is the best way to meet that need -- just that the need itself is legitimate and requires your willing and freely-given support.  She seems to have a really good understanding of what drives your money habits.  You need to develop that same understanding of what drives hers.  Only when she truly believes that you "get" her hopes/fears/concerns will she be open to talking about different ways to meet the need that might be more productive or efficient.  Otherwise, she'll just see any comments or suggestions as criticizing the need herself -- as invalidating her own experience and self-knowledge -- even when you're just trying to be helpful.

FWIW, my DH and I were very, very different about money when we married (he was the spender, I was the saver).  We developed some techniques to allow us to manage our money with as little friction as possible, such as saving first and giving each of us some "fun money" each month.  But the only reason this worked was because those techniques kept me in my lane -- because as long as whatever stupid stuff he bought was within the budget we set out, or came from his fun money, I had no right to criticize it

To this day (29 years later), I do not understand why he feels like he does about some things.  Like, he has explained to me that he enjoys picking up the tab at lunch, because it makes him feel like a success to do so.  I really, really do not understand that at a fundamental level.  But I do understand that it is important to him.  And as his wife, I want him to feel successful, happy, powerful, etc. etc.  So I made sure that our budget included money for him to do that.  Now, sure, I grumble inside that it's just nonsensical.  Then again, I'm not exactly a tower of objective logic myself, and I'm sure I have my own weirdnesses that make equally no sense to him.  It works because we both prioritize the things that matter to each other, regardless of whether they actually make sense to us. 

And that brings me to my last point:  humility.  The belief that any one way is the "right" way is fundamentally hubris, plain and simple -- it is the belief that you have somehow infallibly been able to identify a logical, objective truth, and that others who disagree are simply not as smart/logical/clearsighted/etc. as you.  We are all imperfect.  We are subject to confirmation bias, we have limited perspectives based on our own background; we cannot possibly know everything or see everything, and even if we could, our own imperfections would prevent us from identifying an objective "right" answer more often than not.  The best advice I can give is to start every disagreement by realizing that whatever your partner has done, that action was entirely logical to her -- even (particularly) if it makes no sense to you -- and focus on figuring out why she sees that action as logical.  If we want to have an ongoing relationship, our job is to learn the other's perspective, rather than dismissing anything you disagree with as proof that the other is stupid/illogical/etc.  Value judgments that place your intelligence/insight/logical abilities/morals/etc. above hers will destroy your relationship faster than anything else I can think of.  You need to respect her abilities enough to truly believe that her actions have a rational basis -- and you need to love her enough to put in the work to understand what that is.

Green_Tea

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2025, 12:59:47 PM »
I am based in Ireland.
Its the only game in town, when it comes to tax planning... otherwise the partner loses 33% in tax on death.
Listen, we know each other well, for the last 7 years, and we dont argue rarely, and theres love.

So the reason to marry, is to assure that she will get 100% of your assets when you DIE instead of 67% - and vice versa?
Getting 67% of assets one literally did nothing for seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
I don't think that I'd want to potentially mess up my finances while I'm actually Alive for a tax cut when one of us dies.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2025, 02:22:59 PM by Green_Tea »

SunnyDays

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2025, 02:08:41 PM »
She says she "feels" wealthy by spending money, while you potentially "are" wealthy by having saved money.  One is subjective, the other is objective.  But she "owns" a house.  How much equity does she have in it and if she lost her job, how long could she afford to keep it?  Perhaps you need to have a conversation about wealth versus looking rich and each of your long term financial plans.

Is she the one wanting to get married?  If so, is is largely for financial reasons?  If you kept your finances separate and each of you contributed 50% of expenses, would she be just as eager to get married?

I think you need to have a lot more clarity about everything money related before you decide to marry.  You want to go into this with your eyes wide open.

kite

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2025, 06:46:27 AM »
Yes, it can work.

It only has to last until one of you is dead. The older you are, the closer you are to that date which kinda boosts the odds.

My spouse is far more frugal than I am. He’d say he has better money management skills because he doesn’t spend anything. And I say he doesn’t have better skills because his investment temperament has prevented him from increasing his net worth with the overall rise in markets over the 40 years we’ve been together. His idea of having a lot of money is cash in a coffee can, collectible memorabilia and gold. Mine is equity investments, real estate, art & treasury bills. Objectively, one of us has a higher net worth, and it’s not the one squirreling away cash under the mattress. It’s the one who twenty years ago bought rental property, stocks and an antique painting. 

Importantly, neither of us needs to *feel* wealthy in a financial sense. This is why we are compatible despite having opposite ideas about a lot of stuff. True wealth is having your health, plenty of loved ones, and just enough to meet your needs.

Metalcat

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2025, 06:55:10 AM »
Yes, it can work.

It only has to last until one of you is dead. The older you are, the closer you are to that date which kinda boosts the odds.

My spouse is far more frugal than I am. He’d say he has better money management skills because he doesn’t spend anything. And I say he doesn’t have better skills because his investment temperament has prevented him from increasing his net worth with the overall rise in markets over the 40 years we’ve been together. His idea of having a lot of money is cash in a coffee can, collectible memorabilia and gold. Mine is equity investments, real estate, art & treasury bills. Objectively, one of us has a higher net worth, and it’s not the one squirreling away cash under the mattress. It’s the one who twenty years ago bought rental property, stocks and an antique painting. 

Importantly, neither of us needs to *feel* wealthy in a financial sense. This is why we are compatible despite having opposite ideas about a lot of stuff. True wealth is having your health, plenty of loved ones, and just enough to meet your needs.

This assumes an alignment on the understanding of needs though.

reeshau

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2025, 07:25:02 AM »
I am based in Ireland.
Its the only game in town, when it comes to tax planning... otherwise the partner loses 33% in tax on death.
Listen, we know each other well, for the last 7 years, and we dont argue rarely, and theres love.

Everyone here needs to re-read this bit, and be careful about your assumptions on law and options.

For example, from citizensinformation.ie, a government website:

"Pre-nuptial agreements have no basis in law in Ireland. As a result, they are not strictly binding. This means that if you have a pre-nuptial agreement in place and you end up in court following the breakdown of your marriage, the judge is not bound by the terms of the pre-nuptial agreement."

Even at the stage of an engagement, there is law on joint property.

And, when OP talks about 33% estate tax, that starts at a threshold of just €16,250.  Not $11.7M.  Estate taxes are a real issue, and one main issue I do not live in Ireland.

OP, you could settle the cash issue by getting a life insurance policy for your partner.  Make sure, though, that the policy allows designation of a co-habitating person as a beneficiary, rather than only a spouse.

This is certainly an issue that needs to be worked out before you marry.  Perhaps, rather than force yourself to decide right now, forever, you could agree to a trial run: live however you both feel you would as married, but for some period of a couple of years.  If you feel it is working, then you can proceed with knowledge and experience.  You can even adjust things along the way.  And, maybe you find that equilibrium is fine without the marriage part.  (A big presumption on our part that cohabitation is socially acceptable for your family, friends, and personal views)

ChpBstrd

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2025, 11:39:01 AM »
The best determiner I know for the ultimate success or failure of a relationship is not the how alike the couple is, but how the couple manages their inevitable disagreements. 

If you both think your views are "right," that means that by definition you think the other person's views are "wrong."  And that means that you are likely either (1) believing you can convince the other of the error of their ways, or (2) planning to tolerate their wrong-ness.  Neither option has any real likelihood of success.

The way things do work is if you go into things with a fundamental belief that each of your money attitudes is a response to whatever history created it, that the habit/approach serves a purpose to the person involved, and -- most critically -- that that purpose is a legitimate need.  A relationship cannot succeed if it does not meet the needs of both parties -- and you cannot meet someone's needs when you do not believe, at a deep level, that that need is legitimate and worthy of your time and effort. 

Note that you do not have to agree that the specific money habit is the best way to meet that need -- just that the need itself is legitimate and requires your willing and freely-given support.  She seems to have a really good understanding of what drives your money habits.  You need to develop that same understanding of what drives hers.  Only when she truly believes that you "get" her hopes/fears/concerns will she be open to talking about different ways to meet the need that might be more productive or efficient.  Otherwise, she'll just see any comments or suggestions as criticizing the need herself -- as invalidating her own experience and self-knowledge -- even when you're just trying to be helpful.

FWIW, my DH and I were very, very different about money when we married (he was the spender, I was the saver).  We developed some techniques to allow us to manage our money with as little friction as possible, such as saving first and giving each of us some "fun money" each month.  But the only reason this worked was because those techniques kept me in my lane -- because as long as whatever stupid stuff he bought was within the budget we set out, or came from his fun money, I had no right to criticize it

To this day (29 years later), I do not understand why he feels like he does about some things.  Like, he has explained to me that he enjoys picking up the tab at lunch, because it makes him feel like a success to do so.  I really, really do not understand that at a fundamental level.  But I do understand that it is important to him.  And as his wife, I want him to feel successful, happy, powerful, etc. etc.  So I made sure that our budget included money for him to do that.  Now, sure, I grumble inside that it's just nonsensical.  Then again, I'm not exactly a tower of objective logic myself, and I'm sure I have my own weirdnesses that make equally no sense to him.  It works because we both prioritize the things that matter to each other, regardless of whether they actually make sense to us. 

And that brings me to my last point:  humility.  The belief that any one way is the "right" way is fundamentally hubris, plain and simple -- it is the belief that you have somehow infallibly been able to identify a logical, objective truth, and that others who disagree are simply not as smart/logical/clearsighted/etc. as you.  We are all imperfect.  We are subject to confirmation bias, we have limited perspectives based on our own background; we cannot possibly know everything or see everything, and even if we could, our own imperfections would prevent us from identifying an objective "right" answer more often than not.  The best advice I can give is to start every disagreement by realizing that whatever your partner has done, that action was entirely logical to her -- even (particularly) if it makes no sense to you -- and focus on figuring out why she sees that action as logical.  If we want to have an ongoing relationship, our job is to learn the other's perspective, rather than dismissing anything you disagree with as proof that the other is stupid/illogical/etc.  Value judgments that place your intelligence/insight/logical abilities/morals/etc. above hers will destroy your relationship faster than anything else I can think of.  You need to respect her abilities enough to truly believe that her actions have a rational basis -- and you need to love her enough to put in the work to understand what that is.
Geez this makes me think about all the training social media gives us about how the world is divided into people who are right on the one side and absolute idiots who are wrong on the other. The internet reinforces this black-and-white thinking plus the reinforced tendency to shout people down in disposable, disembodied, and often anonymous relationships between internet accounts.

The kids spending 6-10 hours a day on their tablets and phones during their key formative years don't stand a chance. They are highly unlikely to be able to form stable romantic relationships because they'll lack experience in the art of recognizing the legitimacy of individual needs as described above. And even if they do somehow obtain those skills, good luck finding a partner who was also sheltered from the internet.

I'm probably getting a little too into reading Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation, but if the last decade of science on this issue is any sign, the next generation is absolute toast.

Moonwaves

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Re: Getting married.. dilemma
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2025, 01:22:11 PM »
How well do you think you're communicating, especially about finances? Are you getting married in a Catholic church and, if so, have you done the Accord course yet? That should give you an opportunity to get into the topic. I vaguely remember my oldest sister telling me it was really interesting and gave her and her then fiancé lots ofnthimgs to talk about that they hadn't thought of before (caveat is that she married in 1983 :-) ).
Or maybe doing the Dave Ramsey course or something.
But: does she agree that she's bad at managing money, and does she think that's a problem?
If she owns a house, she must have done some things right.