Author Topic: First kid going to college. Need help!  (Read 26829 times)

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2014, 08:58:04 AM »
One of the biggest obstacles that I have seen in college is what major to choose; without any real work experience (other than typical teen jobs), most teens have no idea of what they want to do, or what a given job really entails.  I believe that many would benefit from working for a few years before college, to gain exposure to the work world and see if a field is really what they want to do.  Yes, they will be starting at the very bottom, and probably can't actually get the "cool" job they are shooting for without the degree, but they will hopefully see what their aspirational job holders actually have to do, how hard they work, what skills they need.  Better to learn that a job/field is not for you before you spend years and $$ on the degree, or if you really are confirmed that a field is right for you, you might receive company aid to go to school for the training you require.
This is why my husband and I have put so much effort into getting our teens into various experiences that'll give them a glimpse of what various jobs are like -- vocational classes in high school, volunteer experiences in the community.  Our oldest was easy:  She always wanted something medical, so she took the high school classes and volunteered at the hospital -- she considered becoming a midwife, a pharmacist, and a couple other things, but finally she said she'd always known she was an RN at heart; she's halfway through her college education now and has never looked aside from that goal.  Our youngest is proving harder, but she's found several things that are NOT for her!  We're still working on finding her shadowing experiences, etc. 

I teach remedial and general level high school students, and SO MANY of them claim they intend to go into unattainable jobs:  Neurosurgeon, pediatric oncologist, lawyer, etc.  You don't suddenly go from a .75 GPA and 20 absences per semester to honors student and professional career person.  100% of my students who are teenaged mothers want to be either L&D nurses or OB/GYNs.  So many of my students have only a vague idea that "working in a hospital pays well and would be fun!" or "I like to argue, so I'll be a great lawyer", and they seem to have an idea that anyone who isn't in a really good job just chose poorly -- but they can't see that their own lackluster performance is locking them into lackluster jobs for the future. 

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2014, 09:07:13 AM »
Mom of 5 is right. As an adult, I disagree with the principle that you owe your kids an education. But I remember being an 18 year old girl. I remember how going to university was "OMG RIGHT NOW SO IMPORTANT!!!11!!" I can see myself throwing a tantrum when confronted with a forum full of strangers telling me I can't have what I want, the way I want it, RIGHT THIS MINUTE.
I disagree with your disagreement: You do owe your child HELP with an education.  That doesn't mean, however, that you should have been able to save the entire cost of a 4-year university education or that you should go into debt to make it happen.  You absolutely owe your child guidance and support, and I'd be ashamed to say I wouldn't pay anything at all -- even just picking up the text book costs would be something.  At the very least, allowing the adult child to live at home IS financial support. 

I can relate to the feeling that I needed to go to a university RIGHT NOW!  Teens do tend to judge themselves by their standing in relationship to others, and if other people are going to a university and I'm not . . . well, something must be wrong with me!  That's immature thinking, of course, but we are talking about a teen.  However, if going to university RIGHT NOW is all that important, she would be making more steps towards making it happen. 

 

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2014, 09:10:37 AM »
This lack of college readiness is how many high-school graduates (including me) joined the military...
I tell my students all the time:  I was an honors student in high school.  Motivated, smart, completely ready for college.  But if I could be 18 again, I'd do a stint in the military before going to college.  I'd grow up a few more years, live cheap and save every penny, and then go to school using my savings and the GI Bill.  And then I'd always have veteran's benefits available to me. 

I never considered that path when I was finishing high school -- it wasn't something that smart kids, especially girls, considered in the 80s -- but in retrospect, it would've been my best option. 

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2014, 09:14:06 AM »
I wasn't ready for college.  Mom had a rule.  She paid until you screwed up.
We have that rule too.  We will gladly, happily pay for Semester 1.  When we see good grades and progress towards graduation, we will gladly, happily pay for Semester 2.  If that doesn't happen, we'll fall back and regroup.  They can always come home, but we won't continue to finance lackluster performance. 

I've never understood why this isn't everyone's rule.  I've never understood how some kids manage to bilk their parents out of years of non-productive college.  One semester, yes, a kid could fool you -- but if you allow it to continue semester after semester, you're to blame! 

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2014, 09:17:13 AM »
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage. 

Gin1984

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2014, 09:36:40 AM »
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage.
Not always, my work-study, though my department was over minimum wage.  However, I did not get a placement from the financial aid department, my department offered.

eil

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2014, 09:51:30 AM »
This thread illustrates perfectly what's wrong with the "you must go to college in order to be a successful adult" mentality that haunts our culture. My highly opinionated stance is this: you go to college if, and only if, both of the following are true:

1) You can afford it. (Meaning you have a scholarship, or charitable parents.)
2) You want to work in a field that absolutely requires a degree (and no, most well-paying middle-class jobs do not, contrary to popular opinion), or want to be an academic.

Kids who want to go to college because they don't know what else to do after high school are being led down the garden path of wasted years and decades of student loan debt. You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

I have some familiarity with this because that was me when I was 18. I was a coaster throughout high school, I couldn't afford college, my parents wouldn't pay for my college, there were few job prospects where I grew up, and I wasn't allowed to stay home. My lifeboat was the military. Once I completed my training and landed at my first permanent duty station, I had tons of free time in the evenings and found out that I was a computer geek. Finished up my four years of service and started working in I.T.  A decade later I'm now a software engineer making very close to six digits, live in a beautiful house with a wife and dog and 2.5 children, etc. And I still don't have a college degree.

galliver

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2014, 10:05:44 AM »
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.

Gin1984

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2014, 10:08:43 AM »
I am pretty pro-parents paying for as much college as they can afford.  I consider it a required part of raising a child, in most cases.  Now, reading about this girl, I would not hand her so much as a penny.  She does not sound ready for college AT ALL.  This is her life and she needs to be helping with figuring a plan to pay for it. I'd highly recommend you and her mother talking and trying to convince her mother to get her to do Ameri-corp.  It is normally a year (she can take up to 8 units a semester, if she wants), last I checked they give $5000 at the end of the year for college and if she has to move (often you do), it is a great life lesson on how to live cheap.  That way she will have at least $5000 of cash (plus the $5500 of loans) and frankly $5500 is reasonable for a college kid to earn over the year.    She also should applying to a scholarship every week, possibly up to 5 a week and that should have started at least in the beginning of this month.  She is not applying herself to go to college, why are you?

lackofstache

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2014, 11:02:49 AM »
This thread illustrates perfectly what's wrong with the "you must go to college in order to be a successful adult" mentality that haunts our culture. My highly opinionated stance is this: you go to college if, and only if, both of the following are true:

1) You can afford it. (Meaning you have a scholarship, or charitable parents.)
2) You want to work in a field that absolutely requires a degree (and no, most well-paying middle-class jobs do not, contrary to popular opinion), or want to be an academic.

Kids who want to go to college because they don't know what else to do after high school are being led down the garden path of wasted years and decades of student loan debt. You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

I have some familiarity with this because that was me when I was 18. I was a coaster throughout high school, I couldn't afford college, my parents wouldn't pay for my college, there were few job prospects where I grew up, and I wasn't allowed to stay home. My lifeboat was the military. Once I completed my training and landed at my first permanent duty station, I had tons of free time in the evenings and found out that I was a computer geek. Finished up my four years of service and started working in I.T.  A decade later I'm now a software engineer making very close to six digits, live in a beautiful house with a wife and dog and 2.5 children, etc. And I still don't have a college degree.

This is as over the top as anything I've read. There are no one size fits all. I had NO IDEA what the hell I wanted to do. I had no money either, but I worked out a plan, went to school and graduated w/ $4k in student loans. I took 5 years, paying by the credit hour, which allowed me to work part time during school and full time in the summers. I learned a lot in school. I had a lot of fun while in school. I met lifelong friends in school. I don't think everyone should go, but saying you shouldn't go unless you know exactly what you want to do is as ridiculous as saying everyone should go. If there isn't a work ethic or money to do it, I wouldn't and this is an instance of that. I wouldn't send her, but as others have stated that's gonna be up to her mother in some ways.

randomstring

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2014, 12:32:39 PM »
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage.
I had a couple nice work study jobs which were not min wage. One was doing research. Another was writing software. Both were available to work study students only. It is possible this varies by campus, but work study does not equal minimum wage.

quilter

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2014, 01:06:39 PM »
Just went back and read your post on your budget. Toy hauler. Harley.  Season tickets to sports game. Eating out.

This is the example your children have seen. You can't finance anything and have everything.  Time to sit down with your wife and make a plan for your financial future. Then you need to sit down with your kids and make a plan.  You can't have it all unless you want to work until you drop dead at work at a very old age.

Nords

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2014, 10:15:50 PM »
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Well of course we acknowledge that, and we regretted many of the days that we spent in the military.  In fact only 17% of military servicemembers stick around long enough to qualify for a pension (including Reserves and National Guard) so by your "risk tolerance" criteria you could claim that 83% of military veterans were also unsuited for the service.  And once you've been in combat then I bet every military veteran is ideologically and psychologically opposed to war-- I wish I could say the same for the vast majority of Congressional members and White House staffers.

You might notice that the military idea is usually floated when someone (most often the parent) throws up their hands in exasperation and says "This kid just isn't ready for college or a real job, and I don't know what else we can do about it!"  If there was something that was a better fit then we wouldn't even be having the military discussion.

Maybe the reason that the military is not a good fit for many people is because they don't have the skills to be a productive member of society, let alone the military.  Yet what other employer would spend 2-4 years giving them a living wage and free job training in exchange for persistent effort?

There's only one way to determine whether or not the military is a good fit for people, and that's experiential.  (I'm pretty sure it won't happen via video games.)  If a teen can join a JROTC unit in high school then they'll know how they feel about the military.  If a college student can obtain a ROTC scholarship, their first year is totally free of obligation and their tuition is paid for.  If they can get an appointment to a service academy then the first two years (of tuition, room, & board) are free-- sophomore-year attrition is so common at service academies that it's known as the "military junior college program".  If a high-school graduate (or GED holder) can enlist in the service then they learn how to make a commitment that can lead to training, job skills, college money, and a career.

If you have a panacea, or even a better idea, then feel free to spit it out.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 10:17:40 PM by Nords »

Frankies Girl

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2014, 11:40:53 PM »
I'm chiming in as I am a graphic designer, and I'm married to one, and most of my friends are also in the design field.

Unless your daughter is a stellar artist and has huge talent, going into the graphic design field is not going to pay off. She'll be extremely lucky to find a job after graduation making more than $14/hr and crummy (or non-existent) benefits. I've got several friends that are working for less than that right now.

I knew since I was old enough to walk I wanted to be an artist. I don't consider myself a truly gifted/cutting-edge designer, but I'm decently talented and was pretty ambitious in the early days, and I worked my ass off to get where I am. I was still VERY lucky to land the job I currently have as it pays well above what most of my friends make and has good benefits, but it is rare and you definitely won't find much out there unless you live in a larger metropolitan area.

Start researching NOW the types of jobs and pay that she could realistically make with whatever field of study she's thinking of going for - check out job sites to see what type of pay and requirements are available for the jobs she thinks she might be able to get after getting that degree.

She sounds like she's been a less than interested student in high school, hasn't shown any responsibility in saving on her own for her future education and doesn't seem ready at all to make this sort of commitment. Community college while she works part time would be a good compromise. Best solution would be she takes the next year and works her ass off saving up to go to school and gets a better grip on what she wants to be when she grows up... and still goes to community college to get the basics out of the way. I gotta wonder if she's not seeing college as a social thing like most kids do and doesn't want to go someplace that wouldn't have some of her friends. Some kids just aren't ready when they graduate, and there isn't anything wrong with that. What would be wrong would be for you to take out enormous loans to finance her piddling around in a college when she isn't ready and graduating with a degree that she won't be able to make a decent living with or worse, not graduating. Don't do it.

And sounds like she needs a serious talking to. College - of any kind - is NOT a right, and the idea that she said she wouldn't really try hard at community college is another sign that she shouldn't be going anywhere until she matures a bit more. She should be damned grateful if you kick in any amount, and she should be willing to do everything in her power to work hard and save you money and come up with what she can to pay her own way. And she should also stop and think about how much of a burden she'd be putting onto you and her siblings expecting this sort of thing.


Gray Matter

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2014, 09:56:45 AM »
You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

Disagree.  I am 43 years old and still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.  My family never had cable, a VCR, or video game devices when I was growing up, so I guess I must be extraordinarily boring, since those are the only two options presented.

The truth is, I am interested in SO MANY THINGS that I had a hell of a time choosing a major, because every time I did, I heard all these other doors to everything else I'd never be slamming shut.  I did pick a major eventually because I had to, graduated with no student debt (did get some help from parents) and went on to get a masters and a Ph.D (paid for 100% in cash by little ole me), have never been unemployed, and make over six figures, despite not knowing what I wanted at age 18 and still not knowing what I want in terms of a career. 

My mother gave me the best advice I've ever received on the topic, which is:  You don't have to know what you want to do forever, you just have to figure out what to do next.  I think it's perfectly fine to view college as a chance to explore careers.  That said, a certain level of maturity/practicality is required in order to approach college this way.  I don't think this girl is at that level of maturity right now, but nor do I think she has to have it all figured out before she steps foot on a college campus.  I do think the fastest way for her to figure it out is to be responsible for the choices she makes and to foot the vast majority of the bill.

MrsPete

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2014, 01:02:32 PM »
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Did anyone say, "This is such a good choice that it should be mandatory for all young people?" 

ch12

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2014, 06:19:53 PM »
You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

Disagree.  I am 43 years old and still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.  My family never had cable, a VCR, or video game devices when I was growing up, so I guess I must be extraordinarily boring, since those are the only two options presented.

The truth is, I am interested in SO MANY THINGS that I had a hell of a time choosing a major, because every time I did, I heard all these other doors to everything else I'd never be slamming shut.  I did pick a major eventually because I had to, graduated with no student debt (did get some help from parents) and went on to get a masters and a Ph.D (paid for 100% in cash by little ole me), have never been unemployed, and make over six figures, despite not knowing what I wanted at age 18 and still not knowing what I want in terms of a career. 

My mother gave me the best advice I've ever received on the topic, which is:  You don't have to know what you want to do forever, you just have to figure out what to do next. 

+1

galliver

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2014, 09:43:21 PM »
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Did anyone say, "This is such a good choice that it should be mandatory for all young people?"

In some countries it already is. But you're right, no one did. I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.

NewStachian

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2014, 04:51:25 AM »
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.

I had a bad experience. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it was a terrible fit for me.

It was also the best decision I ever made.

It's certainly not for everyone. But if you haven't learned how to be a productive member of society yet, it's not a bad way to spend 5 years.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 04:54:50 AM by NewStachian »

Worsted Skeins

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2014, 06:50:35 AM »
I think that the moral of this story is that parents need to be having conversations with their teens long before senior year of high school.  If a parent cannot afford or has no intention of funding college, kids need to know this long before they begin applying to schools. It seems that part of the issue here is that of false hope.

My kiddo's college (life) savings accounts were opened shortly after birth.  Those little $5 presents in holiday cards from grandma and Aunt Lulu were saved from his toddler years on, supplemented with 4-H cash awards and employment earnings.  It is so much easier if one has a Mustachian child.

That said, the gap year idea is a good one if the girl is certain that she must attend a particular university.  She can work, save money and own this. 


quilter

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2014, 07:47:31 AM »
The military is not taking just anyone these days

http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/15/news/economy/military-recruiting/

Personally my dil's and I are vegan. I couldn't even kill a chicken, so I doubt I would be a good fit for the military. In the military you need to be aware that every single person could be called upon to end up with a finger on a trigger.  Or telling someone else to do so. I would be a danger to my fellow soldiers and would have to serve in another capacity if called upon. I doubt if today's military would jump at the chance to take someone like me.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 07:50:02 AM by quilter »

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2014, 07:59:28 AM »
As for the military option -- I personally wouldn't choose to go that route (reformed vegetarian here), but I wouldn't discourage my son to do it if he wanted and worked in a highly technical field. Not all college military programs funnel kids into combat.

I don't know the details, but I'm going to guess that college ROTC programs tend to push kids into technical positions, where they'll use their college degree. A friend of mine had his undergraduate, Master's, and PhD (in rocket science!) covered by the military because they wanted his brains more than his brawn. I will admit that I never really asked him what he did for a living because I didn't want to know. But I wouldn't disapprove of it for my son if that's what he wanted to do, because it seemed they would never send my friend into combat.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2014, 10:42:06 AM »
My parents did not pay for my college (except for transportation at the beginning/end of each term and a weekly phone call home).  I got through by:
1) choosing an inexpensive university
2) getting as many scholarships as possible
3) getting a job

My wife was the same.

NewStachian

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2014, 11:53:47 AM »
I think many people who are unfamiliar with the military don't understand why those of us who have gone through the process are promoting it. If you're the kind of person who wants to get air-dropped into another country guns a-blazin' that option is certainly available, but it's voluntary and most of us don't ever see combat. I certainly didn't want to have anything to do with shooting people.

On a submarine at sea, I would wake up and stand 1 of 2 watches. I was either running the nuclear reactor or driving the ship. The discipline and real-life skills we're talking about here involve all the training that goes into making that possible. Knowing that the lives of everybody on board quite literally depended on my ability to do my job pushed me, as it did those around me, to train to a high level of readiness. It's easy to slack off (I was a lazy bum in high school) when the grades only reflect your own performance. But, if you're standing officer of the deck and panic coming up to periscope depth when you see a ship, (you're the ONLY person looking through the scope) you can sink the ship. These things sound scary, but when it's your job and what you're trained for, it's more of a challenge than anything else, and you rise to the challenge and learn an incredible amount about yourself. Another thing this gives you is the pride and confidence in yourself that you can go on to do anything you want.

I hated being in the military, but I learned more about myself than at any other time in my life. And although I didn't like it, If you ask me what it was like to surface a submarine at the north pole or drive the boat on the surface as the sun rose with dolphins swimming across the bow, I'm going to put a smile on my face and tell you some awesome stories.

From a purely Mustachian perspective: 100% free college education, insanely low cost of living due to deploying frequently, tax free money, and a paycheck of about $150k at your 5 year point, lol.

schoopsthecat

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2014, 12:09:55 PM »
I'm a professor at a Big Ten university.  I have two thoughts.  The first (a bit off topic) is that I agree with the poster who talked about the value of a liberal arts education.  Some of the most successful people I know in the business world got liberal arts degrees.  One of my best friends is a partner at PWC and has degrees in English and music.  The fact that college is becoming more and more vocational training is really sad to me.

The more relevant point that I have to add is that the students I work with who take time off before school (either through military service, travel, working to save for college, etc.) seem to be much better students and more successful overall.  Perhaps it's just that young people in their early 20s are more serious about life and their studies than 18 and 19 year olds, but I see nothing wrong with taking a year off to work and save for school...a far better option than loans.

galliver

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2014, 12:50:19 PM »
I think many people who are unfamiliar with the military don't understand why those of us who have gone through the process are promoting it. If you're the kind of person who wants to get air-dropped into another country guns a-blazin' that option is certainly available, but it's voluntary and most of us don't ever see combat. I certainly didn't want to have anything to do with shooting people.

I realize that many, possibly most, jobs in the military are not directly combat-related. I also realize that you could trace most civilian jobs back to supporting the military (food industry, electronics industry, medical professions, etc). Not to mention we all pay taxes. Thirdly, I realize that for the forseeable future this is a necessary evil; Hitlers and Atillas and Napoleons do come along every so often. But, I find that whether you design, build, maintain or fire a missile, you're still partially responsible for its victims. The military doesn't source equipment and train people to use it for their personal development. They do it in case combat (on land, sea, or air) becomes necessary. And to the best of my knowledge, when that happens, you go where they send you. Even if you don't agree.

Everyone has an ideological comfort zone; some might be willing to build a missile but not fire it. Others might not be willing to work on anything that *could* conceivably be applied to missiles, even if there are other applications. And of course, some are willing to fire it when told to do so, and some are willing to give that order. I think everyone needs to figure out where they fit in if/when considering the military as an option. [btw, used missiles as an example because I'm an Aerospace Engineer.]

Nords

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2014, 01:08:31 PM »
I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.
Whew, thank goodness that's not an issue with corporate scholarships or professional-association scholarships or alumni scholarships.

Or maybe the only difference is that those other groups don't have legislative & executive charters to inflict death and injury and forceful control.  They just have to hope that they don't get caught breaking the law.  Or American law, anyway.  At least not in America.

Is there an ideological choice that will deliver financial & educational support to someone whose only other option may appear to be student loans?  Or does the military come up so often because the military recruiters perhaps do a better job of marketing their benefits? 

Maybe the Peace Corps could really raise their game if they paid for more mechanical engineering and agricultural tech degrees.

By the way, when a recruit joins the military and reports for initial training it's made very clear to them that their job is to break things and kill people.  No dishonesty involved-- it wastes too much training time and costs too much taxpayer money.  We veterans might not have known precisely what we were getting into, but we all knew that it was better than the status quo ante.

As for the military option -- I personally wouldn't choose to go that route (reformed vegetarian here), but I wouldn't discourage my son to do it if he wanted and worked in a highly technical field. Not all college military programs funnel kids into combat.

I don't know the details, but I'm going to guess that college ROTC programs tend to push kids into technical positions, where they'll use their college degree. A friend of mine had his undergraduate, Master's, and PhD (in rocket science!) covered by the military because they wanted his brains more than his brawn.
That's a huge debate in the military, let alone society.  After centuries of trying to quantify what makes a leader, it's very difficult to pick them out of a crowd of high-school or college graduates.  We just fling a bunch of volunteers into the jobs with some basic training and hope that Darwinism helps produce a solution.  I guess it's the ultimate in survivor bias.

The military can hire all the contractor rocket scientists they need (and almost as many as they want) but it's really hard to hire leaders.  You can't take the teens with the highest GPAs and SATs and turn them into leaders.  Ironically there are many officers who have GEDs and SATs in the low four digits and went to community colleges for liberal arts degrees and turned out to be fantastic leaders.  It's a cliché, but leaders are either born that way or discovered through combat. 

Most of the ROTC scholarships are awarded in the "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" levels for engineering & science.  The logic is that the combat arms jobs (the fightin' parts) tend to use highly technical tools.  The officers won't need to be able to operate those tools blindfolded, but they'd better understand their strengths & weaknesses in helping with decisions.  Maybe this logic is correct, but it still leaves a lot of potential standing on the sidelines.

A minority of the scholarships are awarded to "everyone else", mostly language programs and business programs but also history and economics and even philosophy.  Those people turn out to have critical thinking skills that will pay off for the military even if they haven't studied multivariable calculus.  Their critical-thinking skills are borne out through the training pipeline-- if they survive it then they have the skills.  If they don't then they didn't.

In the 1980s, Admiral Rickover succeeded in bullying the Naval Academy to set a quota on their degrees.  80% had to be a technical degree, and 20% could be "non-technical"-- yet even the history and English and econ majors had to study electricity, electronics, thermodynamics, and weapons systems.  Now that Rickover is no longer terrorizing the Navy, USNA has come to its senses and backed off the quota system.  However it's still very difficult to get in without a high all-around multiple. 

After decades of data analysis, the single most successful indicator of success at a service academy is:  Eagle Scout or the Gold Award.  Or at least it is for those graduates who actually were in a scouting program.

As for the brawn... that went out in the 1700s when firearms became operational.  Even the SEALs and the Special Forces have qualifying tests that are fairly achievable for athletic young adults.  (Of both genders, although admittedly pullups are both a genetic and a learned skill.)  All of the special forces promise to develop more muscle and stamina, and the ones who do better will have a metabolism that can rapidly convert food to energy while avoiding repetitive stress injuries.  But what the special forces are really seeking is competitive persistence.  They want the scrappy little underdog who just can't stop competing at everything (even the stupid things) and who won't give up until he (or she) literally loses consciousness.  With that, everything else is training.  Without that, everything else is a waste of time.

Submariners spend a lot of operational time with SEALs.  The rest of the Navy thinks that submariners are intense, but the submariners know what intense really looks like-- and the SEALs scare the heck out of us.  Nice guys and great leaders, but... yikes.

From a purely Mustachian perspective: 100% free college education, insanely low cost of living due to deploying frequently, tax free money, and a paycheck of about $150k at your 5 year point, lol.
With great coffee and free movies, too!


« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:10:39 PM by Nords »

quilter

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2014, 01:25:53 PM »
Thanks for the military clarifications.  And thank you for your service.


galliver

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2014, 01:52:17 PM »
I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.
Whew, thank goodness that's not an issue with corporate scholarships or professional-association scholarships or alumni scholarships.

Or maybe the only difference is that those other groups don't have legislative & executive charters to inflict death and injury and forceful control.  They just have to hope that they don't get caught breaking the law.  Or American law, anyway.  At least not in America.

Yeah, that alumni association is really just a thinly veiled mafia after all... ;) I say this with good humor.  You make a good point that we should consider the ideological implications of the other organizations as well. Frankly, I'm not too worried about the machinations of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. And pretty sure I agree with their mission "to serve diverse global communities by advancing, disseminating and applying engineering knowledge for improving the quality of life; and communicating the excitement of engineering." And I could get behind their ethical standards. That said, I would pause before taking money/offering services to Monsanto (not that that's my field).

The military is full of brave and hardworking and worthy people, and I'm sure you were one of them. But when it comes time to make the individual choice, violence is a very sensitive subject for many and the military is fundamentally based on violence (you did agree on that count). So...I still think it's very different from corporate/professional/alumni funding.

Nords

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2014, 08:49:54 PM »
The military is full of brave and hardworking and worthy people, and I'm sure you were one of them. But when it comes time to make the individual choice, violence is a very sensitive subject for many and the military is fundamentally based on violence (you did agree on that count). So...I still think it's very different from corporate/professional/alumni funding.
There's no clear line like "military bad, civilian good".  However the military offers a free chance to figure out if that's what you want to do with your time, and it's given meaning & purpose to many young adults who see no other way out of their perceived dead-end life.  It would behoove civilian organizations to consider the same sort of recruiting model.

Many of my daughter's classmates in civil engineering and environmental engineering are getting jobs in the oil & gas industry.  Exxon and BP and Chevron are hiring, and the money is very good.  One of the students' college profs is a nationally-recognized lawyer in environmental litigation.  I've read his textbook, and it's led us to some interesting discussions.

In 18 days my daughter graduates and gets her NROTC commission, and she's asked my spouse and me to pin on her ensign's shoulder boards.  She's going to be a "global force for good" stationed on a Navy guided-missile destroyer in Rota, Spain.  We've had the "breaking things & killing people" discussion many times, and she's also spent quality time with her cousin the Army Ranger-- who has considerable hands-on experience in that occupational specialty.  I guess the good news is that during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world, and now she's going to learn how to shoot them down.

galliver

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2014, 10:50:13 PM »
during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world
And I would have been on the receiving end of it. As a little baby. Along with millions of others. Hope you were ok with that.

I've said all I can, already, really.

Erin

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2014, 10:18:48 AM »
Whatever you do, DO NOT cosign any student loans for your children. They are not dischargeable in a bankruptcy, and if your kids stop paying them you are on the hook for the debt.

My advice is if she isn't a good student (and actually this is my advice even if she was unless she is a good enough student to get scholarships and then she can do what she wants), is she is living at home and going to community college for 2 years. Take it from someone who idiotically went to a 4 year school when they were 17, had no idea what they were doing, dicked off and got mediocre grades and a useless degree (but was lucky enough that their parents paid for it all), she does not need to waste the $$ until she knows exactly what she is doing.

Good luck!

Nords

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2014, 11:49:16 PM »
during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world
And I would have been on the receiving end of it. As a little baby. Along with millions of others. Hope you were ok with that.

I've said all I can, already, really.
We've devoted our military careers to defending your rights to say all you want...

Nigel

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2014, 07:41:21 AM »
I've been a college professor for about 15 years (small 4-year liberal arts college) and I definitely concur with the people expressing concern about whether your daughter is ready to start college right now, especially given the financial strain it will put on the family.  This is in no way a put-down of your daughter - she's still just a kid, after all, and acting the way many kids (myself included at that age!) act.  I see way too many people in college who shouldn't be there yet, it becomes an extended adolescence for many, and at best an exercise in hoop-jumping and credentialing rather than an education.  (Then again, some are totally ready for it - it varies).

Here's what I wish I had done at that age:

Take at least a year off and work - learn what it means to pay the bills and live within her means.

A lot of people don't know this, but she can get a couple years of college done almost for free, through CLEP testing.  A CLEP exam costs about $70, and if she passes it counts as a completed 4-credit course at many colleges.  There are endless resources online or in books (used or library!) to learn the material and prepare for the exam.  How about asking her to demonstrate a little academic seriousness by studying for and passing a couple of CLEP exams before going into debt to pay tuition?

She can get some of the college social experience without paying tuition - just move to a college town, room with some students, work in a coffee shop, go to campus events, even sit in on some classes if possible.  Maybe she could work just enough to pay her bills while studying for a couple CLEP exams. 

For some summer fun and a little money, she could try working at a national park or as a summer camp counselor.

If she does these things for a year or two, I expect she will be much more focused and ready to make a mature decision about college.

For your younger kids, look into the possibility of taking college classes (for free) in their junior and senior year of high school - many states allow this, and you get both high school and college credit for the classes - plus a great perspective on what college is like.  Also helps avoid 'senioritis'. 

Good luck!

frompa

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2014, 11:53:24 AM »
Putting kids through college is a lot like other "consumer" issues -- you have to make your own decisions based on your own comfort level, and not go with what "they" suggest.  I remember going to buy a car, and they said we qualified for a $30k loan; and a house, and they said we were approved for $300,000.  I thought, ARE YOU CRAZY? and said no to both. Same with college - they told us we were approved to borrow about a hundred thousand for my daughter's education.  !!?  When we said, we don't borrow money, "they" somehow found money.

 Just because someone else says you can, doesn't by any means mean you should. Sure, you can borrow a pile of money, but at this point in your life, why ever would you? If college is important enough to your child, she'll find a way to make it happen.  In my own family, my folks didn't have the $ to put even one of us through school - just the way it was - and we (all 6 of us) each managed to work our way through.  I think as a result we appreciated and focused our educations.   Good luck on this -- and don't give in to being guilted into this debt. It won't hurt your daughter one bit, and will probably help her a lot,  to have to make her own way.

b4u2

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2014, 11:56:24 AM »
Well the first semester is over. So far school wise she is doing ok. Decent grades in all her classes, mostly art classes. She has decided that the diner at the college is not giving her enough hours so she has started looking for other places to work to earn some money. She has not been wasteful so far. She wasn't putting much effort into this until the last few weeks so I am hoping she continues to strive for something better.

She is finally interested in taking classes at the junior college here over the summer. She has to figure out a way to pay for that on her own. She sank that ship when she wouldn't listen in the first place. We will not be cosigning any other loans for her.

There still seems to be some fantasy about how some of her "goals" will be paid for. I just shake my head.

I served 8 years in the Army Reserves. Won't say that I loved it but it taught me a lot and the little bit I got for the GI Bill was nice. Wish I had done 4 years Regular Army instead to get the better benefits.

I saw someone knock my journal earlier. Yeah I admit I am not perfect. I am late to the game and there was no one to teach me until I found this forum by accident. Since then I have really turned things around and striving to do what I am. Yes I like the "toys" that I have because of the struggle it took to get them. I appreciate them even more now. I am extremely close to paying one off. I accept the fact that it will put me "behind" but guess what...I was behind anyway. So my lesson is in the past and my new goal is to not make the same mistakes.

Zamboni

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2014, 12:40:52 PM »
Thank you for the update, OP.

Did she end up at the school that was originally mentioned for $16K?  At Community College?  Some other school?  I'm late to the party but read most of the thread.

Wishing you and your family the best.

KeeKat

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #87 on: December 24, 2014, 03:08:49 PM »
Community college. Can we stop talking about CC like it's the loser cousin to universities, by the way? Mustachians ought to know better than anyone that paying more doesn't equal higher quality.

I did my first two years at a cc to save money. Did my second two years at in-state rates, graduated at the tippy top of my class.

The smart kids go to schools they can afford, end of story.

This word for word! I did exactly the same thing - lived at home, went to CC, got a job tutoring at CC and then went on to University and graduated at the top.

All the students who may have looked down on me for going to CC are still DEEP in student loans while mine were paid off within the first two years of graduating (parents were not financial able to contribute to my education). And, many of my CC classes were more difficult than my University gen eds to boot!

b4u2

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2015, 06:26:19 AM »
She went to the college of her choice. $16k a year. She/we managed to cover the first year. Most of it all in loans. I cosigned on a $7k loan for the first year. After this it is up to her on how to pay for the rest. The agreement is if she pays off that $7k before the next school year I will cosign on another loan for her if needed. If the loan is not paid in full I will not sign. I felt that $7k was/should be easy enough for her to pay off in a year. So far she is behind so hopefully she can make up ground over the summer. She did pick up additional hours at her job at the local grocery store (Hy-Vee).
They have a very nice deal for high school and college kids. Even though she basically quit and went to college they put her status as "on leave". So when she comes back for holidays and summer she can go back and work for them. She has to give them a few weeks notice in case they need to train her on something. She grabbed up hours for people that wanted time off over Christmas and New years. She is also looking into picking up a job of campus but within walking distance of her dorm.

civil

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2015, 08:46:17 AM »
The military will pay for schooling. and you may get a chance to see the world. if the military is an option for the other children see if they have a JROTC at their high schools.  Many students come to Virginia Tech as cadets and have all 4 years of their college education paid for and than you get have a guaranteed job for at least 5 years out of school.

YMMV. The pay is great, but it's not so easy to get in. I have tried to join the military 6 times (at ages 18, 21, 23), twice each with 3 different branches, as my DC-area federal job requiring a master's degree pays less than E-4 here. (Officers are pretty much robbing the bank.) Each time I tried to get in, MEPS said they could waive one medical thing, but not a different one... and the waiver options changed every time.

If your kids are healthy, then absolutely, encourage them to consider the military! But if your kids are not pictures of good health, do not tell them "there's always the military..." That isn't true anymore. In my experience, the military is open to those who have won the genetic lottery and/or have never been to a doctor.

That said, if you want to leave the military option open for your children, be very careful about what goes on their medical records. Any hint of asthma had better disappear before their 13th birthday (this one got me - even though I run a 12:30 2-mile with no meds). A friend of mine was disqualified in October for eczema. A relative was disqualified last week for having had Lyme disease. Another in November because they had been prescribed an Epi-pen just in case (because a life-threatening food allergy runs in the family, though she has not developed it). With the military drawing down, it's becoming much more difficult to get in. Go with your kid to talk to a recruiter before telling them it's an option.

Nords

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2015, 05:14:23 PM »
That said, if you want to leave the military option open for your children, be very careful about what goes on their medical records. Any hint of asthma had better disappear before their 13th birthday (this one got me - even though I run a 12:30 2-mile with no meds). A friend of mine was disqualified in October for eczema. A relative was disqualified last week for having had Lyme disease. Another in November because they had been prescribed an Epi-pen just in case (because a life-threatening food allergy runs in the family, though she has not developed it). With the military drawing down, it's becoming much more difficult to get in. Go with your kid to talk to a recruiter before telling them it's an option.
You're absolutely right about respiratory or auto-immune concerns.  The military has learned (the hard way) not to take chances with these issues.  It's not fair to the servicemember (especially in austere and stressful environments) and it's not fair to the people they're serving with.

If there's anything worse than being turned down by the military, it's having to deal with those conditions when they're made worse by your environment.  About 15 years ago the submarine force almost lost an officer to an asthma attack out in the middle of nowhere during a mission of great importance to national security, and it happened while he was the Officer of the Deck on the periscope in the middle of a rather stressful watch.  During the subsequent medical investigation, the doctors realized that the entry physical had missed signs of asthma that returned with a vengeance after a few years of submarine sea duty.

As for accompanying your teen to the recruiter's office... I'd be interested in hearing how a teen would feel about that.  I know what my teen would have told me.

Well our first kid is going to college this fall. Basically my wife and I just started on this FI path and are still paying our debts. We have no money for college. She only got student loan for $5500. Then apparently the parents (US) can borrow 13k for the other part. The cost of the college is about 16k a year including housing, food, books, and misc fees.

My wife and I have 5 kids total. We cannot afford to pay for each kid to go to school. I need help with understanding what to do. She has applied for grants and scholarships and waiting to hear back on those. She isn't the greatest student so not holding my breath.

What are some resources I can read up on?
Having said that about the military, I'd encourage any teen who's even the least bit curious about the armed forces to join a college ROTC unit.  The first year is completely free of obligation, and the scholarship pays for tuition (plus most of the textbooks and a small monthly stipend).  The good ROTC units will offer a supportive environment that helps freshmen keep from feeling lost or ignored.  They'll even get help figuring out which courses to register for and how to put together a good class schedule.   There's also the structure of morning workouts, afternoon study groups, and weekend activities like volunteering in the community or at military events.  The summer training after freshman year will give them a tour of their military options, and then at the start of sophomore year they can either stick with the scholarship (for a service obligation) or quit (and keep most of their uniforms). 

I think ROTC is a much better deal than a service academy, and my daughter does too.  She's lovin' life right now as a Navy surface warfare officer, and I'm sure she's looking forward to nuclear power training.

http://the-military-guide.com/2013/03/18/joining-the-military-during-a-drawdown/
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/06/08/early-retirement-and-the-kids-college-fund/

MayDay

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2015, 05:50:37 PM »
Nords, my cousin had a different experience 2 years ago in ROTC.  He initially joined because he was interested in possibly joining the military, but he wasn't totally sure.  He figured he would try it for a year and see, plus get a free year of college, so win-win.  He enjoyed it at first, but within the first semester the officers started pushing HARD for all the kids to sign immediately.  He quite towards the end of the first semester because the pressure was ruining what was otherwise a good experience for him.

Maybe they don't care- maybe they figure if you don't love it and want it enough to sign right away, then they don't want you.  But I think if that's the case, then 1., don't offer the first year commitment-free, and 2., you are going to miss some good kids who aren't from military families, or for whatever other reason want to scope things out before committing. 

lakemom

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2015, 06:21:44 PM »
ROTC scholarships are not a given and with budget cuts are getting harder to acquire.  Our sophomore has yet to get a scholarship (at his uni no one does freshman year) and is anxiously awaiting news on whether he will get a summer camp slot.  He's always wanted to be in the AF and chose ROTC over the enlisted to officer route his older brother took/is taking.  IF you have a student interested in ROTC have them meet with campus reps/recruiters at least a couple of times before enrollment.  The recruiter was very up front with our son about likelihood of scholarship.

Unique User

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2015, 08:16:55 AM »
She went to the college of her choice. $16k a year. She/we managed to cover the first year. Most of it all in loans. I cosigned on a $7k loan for the first year. After this it is up to her on how to pay for the rest. The agreement is if she pays off that $7k before the next school year I will cosign on another loan for her if needed. If the loan is not paid in full I will not sign. I felt that $7k was/should be easy enough for her to pay off in a year. So far she is behind so hopefully she can make up ground over the summer. She did pick up additional hours at her job at the local grocery store (Hy-Vee).
They have a very nice deal for high school and college kids. Even though she basically quit and went to college they put her status as "on leave". So when she comes back for holidays and summer she can go back and work for them. She has to give them a few weeks notice in case they need to train her on something. She grabbed up hours for people that wanted time off over Christmas and New years. She is also looking into picking up a job of campus but within walking distance of her dorm.

If she has any inclination at all, encourage her toward food service for summer/school jobs.  I earned much more waiting tables and working catering gigs, than working retail.  I also was signed up as a banquet server in college, it was sporadic, but still good money. 

ysette9

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2015, 09:03:03 AM »
A lot has been said about junior college/community college and I just want to pile on that band wagon. My sister and I went to a fantastic junior college while living at home and working and it was the best thing either of us could have done. We both took classes while still in high school, my sister went there after dropping out of HS and taking the GED. She went through 3 or 4 majors over 4 years at the JC before settling on what she wanted to do. We both got JC scholarships that paid for everything so we could take our time figuring things out.

My point: It is not 2nd best to go to junior college and often times it can be the best choice. My sister and I both transferred to campuses in the University of California system (great schools). I went to UC Berkeley and then did a master's at Stanford and the quality of education I got at my JC was on par with both of those institutions.

NICE!

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2015, 10:04:45 AM »
galliver - I'm in the military, I hate war, I think we go to war too much, and I always pray for peace. I think that if you had more exposure to military members you'd find more of this opinion than you'd expect. We're not all uneducated/xenophobic/patriotic/trigger happy idiots. I also know that the military is absolutely the wrong choice for a ton of people, including many people currently on active duty...I've helped show the door to some of them. All we're doing is proposing it as an option for someone who quite clearly needs structure and purpose. Like it or not, those are two of the strongest points of military service.

To Nords' point, I too was told, quite uncomfortably and regularly, that my job was to break things and kill people. It always made me uneasy and still does. My ideological comfort zone is not as an infantry officer - I learned that when one of my PROFESSORS went into a speech early my freshman year about how we "blow shit up and kill other humans." Now I realize what he was doing, but at that time it seemed extremely insensitive to me. Other people ate it up, but like you said, that was part of understanding where someone stands on careers within the military.

Like VarsityFinance, I too attended a military academy (Air Force). As much as I wish I would've gone somewhere and partied to up the social skills and meet more women, I made the right decision. I learned a ton there, even though I didn't realize it until about 5 years later. Would I do it again? Hell no, but that's because I'm stubborn and love the idea of Party U and being an 18 year old again chasing after 18 year old women. I'm happy I can't hop in a time machine.

I'm not saying this is an option for your child since you said her grades are middling. However, enlisting is an option if she'll consider it. The GI Bill is a pretty incredible benefit that she'd earn in 3 years. If she wants to party she can join the Air Force and request an assignment to Korea. She can pretty much stay there as long as she wants and she'll definitely get her partying fix in there. Just make sure she knows all the facts about contraceptives and STDs/STIs.

If not, I echo the ideas of CC, vocational school, gap year, or no college at all. I would also say Peace Corps but they require a degree if I recall correctly. Alternatively, she could look into some sort of humanitarian work abroad. I'm guessing that will not appeal to her based upon the previous comments.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 01:11:06 PM by NICE! »

b4u2

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Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2015, 10:46:24 AM »
She did apply at a nearby bar/restaurant and heard some feedback. She just went back to college yesterday so she will check with them about actually having a job or not.

She is a tornado on two legs at home so I am very glad college started back up so she can go there for a while lol.
 
She has been writing essays for scholarships so hopefully something pans out for her.

She also picked up extra hours while she was at home and that money will go towards her loan.