Author Topic: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?  (Read 5547 times)

ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2019, 03:11:16 PM »
We used to be more judgement of parents for things like doing nap time in the car on the freeway or eating junk food or screen time or whatever. Then we had a kid and realized how f-int hard it is, and how a lot of the time the kid behaves how the kid will behave despite parenting. I may still secretly judge inside my heart but I am much more forgiving now that I’ve walked the walk. I also am less likely to self congratulate when my kid does something great.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2019, 04:15:59 PM »
Most people love their kids more than life itself.  Some people would go crazy if they had to stay home.  Kids are not harmed by decent daycare.  Like most things in life one size doesnít fit all.  My parents were very careful not to overstep with advice once we were adults and we are doing the same. I enjoy my relationship with my kids and step kids.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2019, 10:02:10 AM »
Iím impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2019, 10:31:48 AM »
I believe in the oxygen mask theory for parenting, i.e.- take care of yourself first. And because of that I have chosen to keep working full time so that I could pay for daycare for my children. Ideally I would have loved part time daycare with a part time job but it was pretty impossible to find something that made financial sense. Anyway, I love them and I love being with them. But being home full time with a baby and/or toddler was way more than this introvert could handle. Working full time allowed us to afford really quality care.
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.
I think there is lots of ways to do this parenting thing. YMMV.



historienne

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2019, 10:36:41 AM »
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.

This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school. 

ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2019, 10:37:46 AM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2019, 10:44:29 AM »
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.

This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school.
That's awesome! I tell all the young people I know now to wait and see. If you can find good care and are happy working then keep doing it and then become a SAHP. So many people say that they you should "stay home while they are little" but I think there are many downsides that that are overlooked.

I've got one more school year before I'm done. So we'll see, but I'm really hoping that it WILL feel like FIRE to me because I won't have to juggle a million schedules at once. Like a snow day pops up on the same day as a big board meeting. That stuff causes me so much stress! Daycare was open all the time!! My infant nanny came in no matter what!! But two snow flakes and they close school.
And I think my experience and my career is to the point that I can pick up some freelance bookkeeping or tax work to feel like I'm keeping my brain busy.
It's a big risk because I'm likely at the apex of my career, but I think I'm ready and the kids need me.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2019, 10:50:26 AM »
I FIRED / Semi FIRED 2 years ago.
Kids were aged 14 and 16 at the time.

I find that during the school year, I have a couple of days a week that look a lot like my retired (but active volunteer) parents.  During summer, it definitely looks like retirement with hiking on weekdays, and lots of home repair / errands/ upkeep on weekdays, my evenings and weekends are free for fun stuff, relaxing, MMM forums, etc.

One big difference (FIRE with kids) is that kids want to buy things and have experiences, and have sudden expenses.   I , as a parent, budget from my FIRE budget for some of these things, but then the unexpected , or truly "extra discretionary" happens -- I paid for extra driving lessons for my daughter as she kept failing her drive test / exam.  That was nearly $800.  My son's ski trip was unexpected and the other two large expenses / activities (sailing, summer camp) planned this year my son still wants to do.   I intentionally do not insure a second car, with my FIRE budget, but with two kids driving now, I am starting to re-consider it. DD wants contacts and would like help paying for them (I pay for glasses now).   DS may need extra tutoring or help.

I, the parent, then WANT to spend more money on my kids.

So I then start to accept the occasionally extra work contract, for spending money, here and there... am looking at hosting an exchange student (for pay), that sort of thing.

I will say that FIRE with kids is very busy, but a huge difference is the gain of Saturday and your weeknights for family time / relaxing.   I am not cleaning the house, grocery shopping, going to the dentist or bank appointments on these days anymore.

+1 to this as well. As the kids have gotten older, they have become more expensive. And I WANT them to have those experiences. I WANT to pay for college for them. And this is the reason (and insurance) that my husband is going to keep working. We're too scared to fully RE while we are responsible for other humans. That and he strongly feels that it is a good example to them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's how he feels. He also has a job with lots of time off so that helps us still be able to travel during breaks and in the summer.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2019, 11:21:22 AM »
Iím impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.

Yeah, I didnít read it as judgement either. Case shared that in deciding whether kids were right for her she realized her plan was to outsource as much as possible so she could have more time to herself and if that was her thinking, maybe time for herself was more important? That seems fair and responsible. I wish more people thought longer and harder about having kids, maybe there would be less abuse and neglect of children?

Iím in a situation where I will have to have support and help so outsourcing some will be necessary. Iím ok with that although at this stage (donít have the kid yet) Iím more concerned about missing moments: first steps, words and the like. I donít want to miss anything! This might all change if Iím exhausted and need Daddy time, who knows? I do know lots of people are natural parents and it shows and they struggle, some legitimately love it and it shows as well. Still neither path doesnít necessarily determine the kid.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2019, 11:31:16 AM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

I would say largely because they are underfunded. Yet my kids are in private school and the schedule is no better. It seems that it's just accepted because that's the way it's always been.

Jon Bon

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2019, 12:02:42 PM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.




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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2019, 12:03:49 PM »
It feels like a scam to me to get parents to pay for 1/3 of the school day via an “after school” program that is still school and still located at school.

Jon Bon

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2019, 12:12:19 PM »
It feels like a scam to me to get parents to pay for 1/3 of the school day via an ďafter schoolĒ program that is still school and still located at school.

LOL, yeah that too.

Don't forget about half day/full day kindergarten. So you get to pay for full day kindergarten AND before/after school 'care'


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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2019, 01:25:33 PM »
This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school.

Should point out, 'retirement' to stay at home with young children is what people used to call being a stay at home parent.  I think the whole premise of this thread, that feeling retired while being a full time parent is mutually incompatible.  My wife stopped work at our second child and she is still as busy as ever.  Our kids are 13 and 15, but it is just a different kind of busy than the stages that came prior.  Up until the day they leave for college and/or become independent, parenting is equivalent to a 'job' that you don't fully dictate the terms of.

ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2019, 01:37:25 PM »
My expectation and hope is that it will be different with both parents retired. Share the burden, have adult time together when littles are at school. That sounds way more fun to me than being a SAHP with the other parent working.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2019, 02:07:55 PM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.

ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2019, 03:45:07 PM »
So then we need to work on solutions to make the job better for teachers and make school compatible with work for the majority of families out there that have two parents in the workforce. It is an incredible lost opportunity economically for a county to have millions of people reducing or eliminating participation in the labor force because we as a society have arcane school schedules that no longer align with reality. Kids don’t need to be out of school to help with the harvest in the summer but working adults do need to be at their jobs. Time to face up to reality.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2019, 03:58:42 PM »
So then we need to work on solutions to make the job better for teachers and make school compatible with work for the majority of families out there that have two parents in the workforce. It is an incredible lost opportunity economically for a county to have millions of people reducing or eliminating participation in the labor force because we as a society have arcane school schedules that no longer align with reality. Kids donít need to be out of school to help with the harvest in the summer but working adults do need to be at their jobs. Time to face up to reality.

My preference would be for employers to consider whether or not all workers really need to be present 40+ hours/week.  In my case, my job is largely mental.  By 2-3pm, I'm past my most productive time of day, but I have to stick around for the rest of the work day if I don't want to get fired.  In terms of personal productivity, I would much rather be allowed to get out at 2:30 or 3pm every day with the expectation of putting a bit more effort into my morning and early afternoon hours (i.e., no MMM forum breaks, etc.).  The amount of time many office workers spend faffing around can be pretty incredible, but I think quite a few people would give all/most of that faffing up if the alternative was to spending less time at the office each day.  My son isn't kindergarten age yet, but a slightly shorter daycare day would probably be pretty good for him also, as it seems daycare can get more and more chaotic in the late afternoon/early evening hours.

Jon Bon

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2019, 08:15:21 AM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.

They are most definitely done teaching students by 3pm. Therefore the parents get to be tagged in despite still being during the work day.

I want the "business" to respond to the "customer" I (the customer) want better test scores and a longer school day/year. In any industry the business would respond to what the customer wanted. Unfortunately we are dealing with government and unions two things that are not great at adapting to change.

No one else gets summers off and still gets paid, I think the market would quickly adjust. Our school system structure is stuck in the what 1950's? I think we can all agree its time to modernize some of it.




I'm a red panda

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2019, 08:26:34 AM »
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.

They are most definitely done teaching students by 3pm. Therefore the parents get to be tagged in despite still being during the work day.

I want the "business" to respond to the "customer" I (the customer) want better test scores and a longer school day/year. In any industry the business would respond to what the customer wanted. Unfortunately we are dealing with government and unions two things that are not great at adapting to change.

No one else gets summers off and still gets paid, I think the market would quickly adjust. Our school system structure is stuck in the what 1950's? I think we can all agree its time to modernize some of it.

First, teacher's don't get paid in the summer. Some schools will structure their checks to allow them to receive a "paycheck" during the summer, but that's generally only if the teacher chooses it for their own budgeting purpose.  The contract only covers days worked.

Second, schools aren't a business. If you want a business to respond to customer demands, I suggest finding a private school that does so. 
I know there are private schools in my area that have school during standard work hours. The few I'm thinking of are more "one room schoolhouse" type operations though. The demand isn't there for that type of school, because it's super expensive.

Third, as stated, teaching students is not a teacher's only job. Whether or not they are done teaching students, they are not done with work yet. They have a standard work day, and in many cases, longer than standard work day.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2019, 10:20:06 AM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)
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ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2019, 10:40:43 AM »
I agree that kids don’t need more “school”, but they do need supervision and a safe place to play and explore and learn. Why can’t that be on the school campus where they already are hanging out with their friends, have a nice play yard, and have facilities available for study time or homework time or whatever? We don’t need teachers to continue teaching until 5 or 6 in the evening but we could hire some tutors and have homework time and hire some recess attendants and have outdoor make-sand-castles time. Hell, the privileged kids already get this via their parents paying for an “after school” program that is at school. Why not level the playing field? Yes, it would cost society some more money, but I would argue the net benefit would be positive for all the parents would could continue working full time and focus at work instead of pulling their hair out trying to do acrobatics piecing together after school care, or those who drop out because of frustration.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2019, 11:01:47 AM »
I agree that kids donít need more ďschoolĒ, but they do need supervision and a safe place to play and explore and learn. Why canít that be on the school campus where they already are hanging out with their friends, have a nice play yard, and have facilities available for study time or homework time or whatever? We donít need teachers to continue teaching until 5 or 6 in the evening but we could hire some tutors and have homework time and hire some recess attendants and have outdoor make-sand-castles time. Hell, the privileged kids already get this via their parents paying for an ďafter schoolĒ program that is at school. Why not level the playing field? Yes, it would cost society some more money, but I would argue the net benefit would be positive for all the parents would could continue working full time and focus at work instead of pulling their hair out trying to do acrobatics piecing together after school care, or those who drop out because of frustration.

Our schools have this. You can do aftercare at the school or at a private facility.  The school aftercare is not tax payer funded (though the building is, so it's subsidized...)

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2019, 01:18:22 PM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.

I agree completely.  Also, ysette, red panda is right - that is called before/after school care. 

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2019, 01:38:54 PM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)

Too lazy to look up the nation that has learning through play as their primary way of teaching and that works beautifully for young kids. How does it apply to kids from 12 and up? Or are we only talking about kids that need dropped off and picked up?

Also, you could have a longer teaching day with more play time throughout the day.


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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2019, 02:02:20 PM »
I believe you are thinking of the Nordics.

Extending the day with more play would give the benefits to all kids instead of just the kids whose families can scrape together the cash to PAY for before and after school care. And not every school offers that, or offers it on campus. Then you also have to pay for transportation if you are lucky to find a program you can get into and afford. I am anxiously awaiting the opening of after school program admissions because without getting into that program our entire work/life precarious balance would be completely hosed.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2019, 02:33:38 PM »
I believe you are thinking of the Nordics.

Extending the day with more play would give the benefits to all kids instead of just the kids whose families can scrape together the cash to PAY for before and after school care. And not every school offers that, or offers it on campus. Then you also have to pay for transportation if you are lucky to find a program you can get into and afford. I am anxiously awaiting the opening of after school program admissions because without getting into that program our entire work/life precarious balance would be completely hosed.

The transportation issue is a major issue for families just to get their kids to school at all.  The busing around here is dismal.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2019, 05:55:04 PM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our 11-yr old son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 06:19:23 PM by dustinst22 »

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2019, 06:13:52 PM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.

Isnít this kinda the Montessori school approach? Have you checked that out?

MOD EDIT: Fixed Quote Tags.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 09:24:07 PM by arebelspy »

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2019, 03:58:33 AM »
I fire'd four years ago come April 2nd with 4 kids at home. Since two have gone to college and two still at home. For us its been great MOST of the time because for one with our kids so involved in sports its a lot easier to run them around and two its been great being able to spend more time with my kids and go see the two in college whenever I feel like it both being about 5-6 hours away. I will say its better with 2 at home than it was with all 4 and kids for sure are more expensive when there older but some of that is decisions as parents we make. My two oldest worked all through HS and had to pay for there insurance and cell phones but of course our food, water bills were higher. Fortunately they got scholarships for College.  I am looking forward for summer coming because I enjoy going fishing and doing father kid stuff with them every day but am always ready for them going back to school. I do think for me at least if kids weren't around I would be bored and age faster they keep me on my toes which Is why we hope to always have them at least in some degree in our lives and want to end up when me make our final move very close to a college town to remain around young people.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2019, 07:04:31 PM »
This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our 11-yr old son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.

This is a resource aimed more at the child, but it also doesn't hurt for parents to read it: Teenage Liberation Handbook
More on the "extreme" end, and also slightly dated (consider it pre-internet), but it is a good read, and it highlights many other good resources.

ender

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2019, 06:59:04 AM »
I have vague hopes to be able to FIRE early enough to be involved in homeschooling kids.

I'm unsure how I would be able to deal with that energywise, though ;-)

smoghat

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2019, 08:57:36 AM »
My wife retired in 2008, I retired in 2015 (1/4 time, it's been full time since last year). I don't feel like it's really FIRE. My kids (13 and 16) have demands that I don't feel ok saying no to. By this I mean, they want to live in the town we currently live in and they don't want to take a year or semester off of school. So we are tied here. If I lived in the country where I could get a season's pass skiing or could go travel around the world for a year, then I'd feel retired. Now, no. And when they go to college, will we we have the sort of disposable income we have now? I dunno.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2019, 09:03:14 AM »
The idea of homeschooling makes me break out in hives.  I just don't have that kind off patience.

smoghat - I feel the same.  In my ideal FIRE scenario, we'd be travelling all the time including during the school year.  My kids are 7 and 10 though so it's a long time until college.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2019, 03:40:12 PM »
My tip for combining FIRE and homeschooling is to beware the extra curriculars. Not only from a cost perspective, but because they tie you down. My husband is always saying "I thought we homeschooled to give us more freedom!", but I remind him it is important for our kids to mingle with other kids, so that means being around for the soccer season, etc, so they can attend training and games, etc. The other difficulty with this is that we hate travelling in school holidays, but the extra curriculars can really tie us to the school term. They run all through the term and have breaks for the holidays. When you are trying to teach your kids to be reliable, that they need to be there for their team, etc, it can be hard to then justify taking a few weeks off mid-term to go away.

For those with young kids I will give you the ray of hope that it gets easier as they get older. We believe that if you put in hard yards when they are young it makes things easier when they are older. Rather than it being intense every single day there might be one seriously intense conversation each week nutting out some issue. Of course, FIRE makes this easier. You can be there at the times you are needed.

My other tip (related to the OP) is to teach your kids when they are young how to get their own (safe) breakfast. My husband and I love a good laze in bed in the morning. Our kids were all breakfast self-sufficient at a young age (preschool). We would keep an ear out in case there was any trouble, but we got many blissful hours of lazing while still being parents to three small children.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2019, 08:42:20 PM »
I love the breakfast advice. I’m considering taking the bars off the crib for my 18-month old so she can climb out of bed in the morning for that reason. Her sister (4.5) is sufficient for breakfast if it is something simple like cereal or toast. If the little one could climb out of bed and the big one could fetch her a banana, I might be reintroduced to the concept of sleeping in on the weekend.

ender

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2019, 07:44:33 AM »
My wife retired in 2008, I retired in 2015 (1/4 time, it's been full time since last year). I don't feel like it's really FIRE. My kids (13 and 16) have demands that I don't feel ok saying no to. By this I mean, they want to live in the town we currently live in and they don't want to take a year or semester off of school. So we are tied here. If I lived in the country where I could get a season's pass skiing or could go travel around the world for a year, then I'd feel retired. Now, no. And when they go to college, will we we have the sort of disposable income we have now? I dunno.

I have always had it in my mind that even if we're FI before kids are graduated from high school that it wouldn't make sense to actually RE before then.

That's a ways out practically in either case (enough to FI or them graduating) but I've wondered logistically how this might work at that point too.

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #87 on: March 18, 2019, 08:37:35 AM »
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 08:40:09 AM by Case »

Case

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #88 on: March 18, 2019, 08:44:01 AM »
Iím impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.

Yeah, I didnít read it as judgement either. Case shared that in deciding whether kids were right for her she realized her plan was to outsource as much as possible so she could have more time to herself and if that was her thinking, maybe time for herself was more important? That seems fair and responsible. I wish more people thought longer and harder about having kids, maybe there would be less abuse and neglect of children?

Iím in a situation where I will have to have support and help so outsourcing some will be necessary. Iím ok with that although at this stage (donít have the kid yet) Iím more concerned about missing moments: first steps, words and the like. I donít want to miss anything! This might all change if Iím exhausted and need Daddy time, who knows? I do know lots of people are natural parents and it shows and they struggle, some legitimately love it and it shows as well. Still neither path doesnít necessarily determine the kid.

I believe you have interpreted me correctly; thanks!  One correction; I'm a dude, just like the real Case is.  (I'm not offended).


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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #89 on: March 18, 2019, 02:38:15 PM »
I think itís very important for people to really decide if they want children. Nothing is wrong with deciding against it.  I feel that if you are going to send them away to boarding school or camp for the entire summer that being a parent is probably not what you want out of life.   Birth control and expectations of society have changed for the better. It would be great for all children to be wanted.

historienne

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #90 on: March 18, 2019, 07:51:41 PM »
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.

Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already. 

ysette9

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #91 on: March 18, 2019, 08:10:37 PM »
Oh, snap.

Case

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2019, 05:56:48 AM »
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.

Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already.


We will have to agree to disagree.  I already put on the mickey-mouse gloves in the first post you responded to.  If you go back to my original post, the part with Ďnot the best candidateí, you will see that i am talking about myself, not you or others.  Again, itísreally up to you to decide if my personal thought line is one you want to apply to yourself. You mnetioned others were insulted too, but others also chimed in to disagree.  Its nice that you have students that you teach things to, but that does not make you an authority figure here.  Iím not going to dumb down the conversation further.  It begins to get difficult to have discussions when youíre tip toeing aroung topics, making sure not to accidentally insult someone.  For example, this is derailing the conversation.  I will try not actively insult people, but i simply disagree.

For the record, i am in support of having daycare/relatives/others help out.  I also dont think women should be pressured to stay home, at all, and certainly not more than men are.  The fact the you are insinuating that i am supporting the other side is ....surprising.

My actual interests are in how far you can push this (having others care for your child) before it starts being bad for the child, and how to define this.  I am not an expert in this area, i cannot at this time link you to academic studies.  But if you have them, iíd love to read (review articles are best for non-experts like me).  When i stated academic, i meant Ďfree thinkingí, or in pursuit of open conversation to find the answer to my question, without being hindered by obstacles such as political correctness.  Asking questions, playing devils advocate, etc... is very much part of the academic process.  It is the first step in discourse.  You have condemned me and we have hardly even gotten started.

Rather than have this be a personal argument between you and me, how about we convert it into a fruitful discussion onthe topic of parenting?  If you can link me to studies analyzing parenting effectiveness vs time spent with child, or amount of daycare (etc...) i will take a read.  I honestly am not looking to prove that people that put their kids in daycare are bad people.  The wrold is replete with contrary examples.  At some point iíll start a little research myself, but i figured iíd post on a thread with parents actively commenting in, and that that would be a more rapid way to address the question.

As an aside, i didnt decid against children because i didnt want to use daycare.  In all likelihood, i would use daycare if i had kids.  And, even then (FIREd with kids in daycare) i wondered if i would still feel like i was giving up too much freedom.  This is what drove my internal narrative to think ďmaybe I am not the right candidateĒ.  At no point did i say ďmaybe others arenít the right candidateĒ.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 06:29:32 AM by Case »

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #93 on: March 19, 2019, 06:53:39 AM »
Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already.

Amen! 

Dicey

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #94 on: March 19, 2019, 10:21:27 AM »
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!

arebelspy

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2019, 11:24:43 AM »
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!

Man, you are eagle-eyed to spot that one sentence change!  :)
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Cassie

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #96 on: March 19, 2019, 12:05:17 PM »
What a cute family picture! So fun to read the update.

Dicey

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Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
« Reply #97 on: March 19, 2019, 07:53:00 PM »
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!

Man, you are eagle-eyed to spot that one sentence change!  :)
Ah, but what a great change it is! I was really jonesing for updated photos of the kids. That's a good one. Hint: MORE! (please)