The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: udacian on February 08, 2019, 04:26:44 AM
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Hi,
I'm a 28 year old Japanese male living in Japan.
I started seeing someone, and I've been thinking about the possibility of marriage.
However, I'm really afraid of divorce. Not because of the emotional distress or social stigma. It's because I will lose half of my net worth.
I'm not sure about other countries, but In Japan, you cannot separate your bank account from your spouse's. Married couples are supposed to have the same level of economic wellbeing. So If I make $100K and my wife makes nothing, I don't get to decide how much I keep. I have to give $50K to her.
But what's even more disturbing is that when a couple gets divorced, the wife will keep up to 50% of the household net worth. The exact percentage depends on the particular circumstance, but even if the wife is at fault, you will lose some money. Men are at severe disadvantage at divorce.
Here is my situation. I make over $200K. Not sure how much my girlfriend is making, but it's probably around $30K. Neither of us wants kids. Since I make much more money than her, I will be responsible for most of the investment.
Let's say we get married now, keep our expenses under $20K each, and 10 years later we have $2M. If SO leaves me, she will very likely get $1M, half of the total net worth. 4% SDR will give her $40K a year, which is twice that of her current expense. Don't you think she has a big incentive to get divorced?
On the other hand, if we didn't save any money and enjoy luxurious lifestyle, she would be incentivized to stay in marriage.
One way to protect my money is by having a corporate account. A company is a separate entity, so you will not be taken away the company's asset. However, if the company is not sufficiently distinguished from the owner, it will not be protected as such. Therefore incorporating a company just to manage my investment will not help.
So what should I do?
---- Edit -----
Thank you guys for your thoughtful comments. I didn't expect to get so many replies. I'm less lost now. You guys are awesome.
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Don’t get married. If you’re not planning on having children and you’re this concerned and you can’t do a prenuptial agreeement, just date. Marriage is hard. Extreme disparity in income is hard. Finances are hard. I feel like you will resent her and make a self fulfilling prophecy and then you’ll lose half and hate her and yourself. Just date or find someone who makes close to what you do or make so much you don’t care if she takes half.
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Why do you say that men are at a disadvantage? Isn't it just that the higher earning spouse is at a disadvantage?
Don't be sexist!
Also, don't get married if you are worried about it. But don't be surprised if lots of women pass on that arrangement.
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If you are so worried about divorce even before you think about getting married, stay single.
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There is probably a good historical reason for divorce laws to be the way they are in Japan.
Indeed, a large income disparity makes if more attractive for the low-saving spouse to file a divorce. Don't get married, unless you find someone with similar income and savings rate.
I think going the way through saving in a separate company won't work. As long as you are the owner, your wife will probably get half of that too in some way or another. Otherwise that would have been a golden backdoor for all married high earners.
Is there any good reason why you would want to get married other than for romantic reasons? Do you want to get children? Are your rights as a father for your biological child different depending on whether you are married or not? Then finding a higher earning potential wife would perhaps give you the option to FIRE together with your family.
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Why not just talk about it with her? If you are not cofortable to do this, and you feel the converstion wont go well, you have some work to do together before contemplationg marriage.
your partner may feel she loses her choices because you will equate high income with more power.
she may think you will expect her to work and do all the household chores.
she may think you work too hard and too late and will not be good company.
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So you'd prefer to be married to a woman who feels trapped in the marriage by access to a high income but low net worth?
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Hi,
I'm a 28 year old Japanese male living in Japan.
I started seeing someone, and I've been thinking about the possibility of marriage.
However, I'm really afraid of divorce. Not because of the emotional distress or social stigma. It's because I will lose half of my net worth.
I'm not sure about other countries, but In Japan, you cannot separate your bank account from your spouse's. Married couples are supposed to have the same level of economic wellbeing. So If I make $100K and my wife makes nothing, I don't get to decide how much I keep. I have to give $50K to her.
But what's even more disturbing is that when a couple gets divorced, the wife will keep up to 50% of the household net worth. The exact percentage depends on the particular circumstance, but even if the wife is at fault, you will lose some money. Men are at severe disadvantage at divorce.
Here is my situation. I make over $200K. Not sure how much my girlfriend is making, but it's probably around $30K. Neither of us wants kids. Since I make much more money than her, I will be responsible for most of the investment.
Let's say we get married now, keep our expenses under $20K each, and 10 years later we have $2M. If SO leaves me, she will very likely get $1M, half of the total net worth. 4% SDR will give her $40K a year, which is twice that of her current expense. Don't you think she has a big incentive to get divorced?
On the other hand, if we didn't save any money and enjoy luxurious lifestyle, she would be incentivized to stay in marriage.
One way to protect my money is by having a corporate account. A company is a separate entity, so you will not be taken away the company's asset. However, if the company is not sufficiently distinguished from the owner, it will not be protected as such. Therefore incorporating a company just to manage my investment will not help.
So what should I do?
It is not an incentive to get divorced. It is just an incentive not to force her to stay in a marriage she doesn't want to.
I wouldn't get married if I was in your place as the higher earner unless there is a specific reason for it.
I have been married and divorced twice, I was the higher earner in both marriages and never combined finances. The thought of having to support another adult, without good reason, during marriage or after divorce is something I did not want. I have a child from my 2nd marriage and now I am too old to have more kids (too high risk). Since I will not have any more kids, I see no reason to get married again (I suppose for many people having kids is not a reason enough either).
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I think you’re missing the concept of marriage.
The idea is to find a spouse that you love unconditionally, regardless of how much money they make, and caring so much about that person that you simply cannot imagine living life without them. It also includes having complete faith in your spouse, and trusting that a divorce for financial gain would never even cross their mind.
If financial freedom is worth more to you than the woman you’re choosing to spend your life with, you should not get married. Yes, I’d like to be financially independent, but if it meant not being with my wife, then I’d rather live in a cardboard box working full time for the rest of my life.
Some things in life are worth far more than FIRE.
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I think you’re missing the concept of marriage.
The concept of marriage isn't the same in every culture.
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Let's say we get married now, keep our expenses under $20K each, and 10 years later we have $2M. If SO leaves me, she will very likely get $1M, half of the total net worth. 4% SDR will give her $40K a year, which is twice that of her current expense. Don't you think she has a big incentive to get divorced?
On the other hand, if we didn't save any money and enjoy luxurious lifestyle, she would be incentivized to stay in marriage.
So Japan has a straight 50/50 wealth split, but no (or limited) alimony (continuing payments from high earner to low earner after divorce)?
In the US, the two tend to go together, so it doesn't matter as much if the disparity is in saved wealth or just income. (Of course, technical details can make it matter more in specific cases.)
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Please. Do this woman a favour and don't marry her since you clearly don't respect her and her motivations when it comes to you. THAT is a far bigger problem than your "what if" for the future.
Also, I agree with MayDay. Perhaps in your situation, you, as the male, are the higher income earner, but that is not the case all of the time.
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So you'd prefer to be married to a woman who feels trapped in the marriage by access to a high income but low net worth?
+1
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Maybe find a woman you love that makes 200k like you?
Honestly, as long as she's not a gold digger, what's the problem? You're sharing your life, energy, memories, and time. That's worth WAY more at the end of the day than money. Find the right person and be good to her. Sheesh.
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The concept of marriage is different in other countries but the op must know that he is posting on a forum with members from mostly northern Europe, usa, and Australia. Most of us will respond with "western values " in mind. It would be helpful if the OP explained why he is thinking about marriage and what he wants out of it.
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The concept of marriage is different in other countries but the op must know that he is posting on a forum with members from mostly northern Europe, usa, and Australia. Most of us will respond with "western values " in mind. It would be helpful if the OP explained why he is thinking about marriage and what he wants out of it.
Thanks for the reply. I actually never wanted to get married. I didn't even believe in monogamy. But after years of trying to be a pickup artist, I failed at it. Then I read lots of books on relationships and thought that maybe monogamy is a good thing, that there is a deep fulfillment in a long tern relationship.
After I met her, I often find myself daydreaming about living together and having fun. Of course I don't need to get married to do that. But she wants to because of the social pressure and the protection against infidelity the marriage gives her. I understand her concern and want to make her happy.
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Maybe find a woman you love that makes 200k like you?
Honestly, as long as she's not a gold digger, what's the problem? You're sharing your life, energy, memories, and time. That's worth WAY more at the end of the day than money. Find the right person and be good to her. Sheesh.
Thanks for the reply. You are right. I know she is not a gold digger and would not leave me as long as she loves me.
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Please. Do this woman a favour and don't marry her since you clearly don't respect her and her motivations when it comes to you. THAT is a far bigger problem than your "what if" for the future.
Also, I agree with MayDay. Perhaps in your situation, you, as the male, are the higher income earner, but that is not the case all of the time.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I guess I need to learn to respect and believe in other people in general.
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Let's say we get married now, keep our expenses under $20K each, and 10 years later we have $2M. If SO leaves me, she will very likely get $1M, half of the total net worth. 4% SDR will give her $40K a year, which is twice that of her current expense. Don't you think she has a big incentive to get divorced?
On the other hand, if we didn't save any money and enjoy luxurious lifestyle, she would be incentivized to stay in marriage.
So Japan has a straight 50/50 wealth split, but no (or limited) alimony (continuing payments from high earner to low earner after divorce)?
In the US, the two tend to go together, so it doesn't matter as much if the disparity is in saved wealth or just income. (Of course, technical details can make it matter more in specific cases.)
Thanks for the reply. I don't think so. It only applies if we have kids. Many wives stay in unhealthy marriage because she is financially totally dependent on her husband.
I didn't know that's how it works in the US. That's crazy.
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I think you’re missing the concept of marriage.
The idea is to find a spouse that you love unconditionally, regardless of how much money they make, and caring so much about that person that you simply cannot imagine living life without them. It also includes having complete faith in your spouse, and trusting that a divorce for financial gain would never even cross their mind.
If financial freedom is worth more to you than the woman you’re choosing to spend your life with, you should not get married. Yes, I’d like to be financially independent, but if it meant not being with my wife, then I’d rather live in a cardboard box working full time for the rest of my life.
Some things in life are worth far more than FIRE.
Thanks for the reply. You are right. I guess I've been brainwashed by media that divorce is very common. Those divorcees once loved and trusted each other. That's why it's hard for me to be optimistic about marriage.
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It is not an incentive to get divorced. It is just an incentive not to force her to stay in a marriage she doesn't want to.
I wouldn't get married if I was in your place as the higher earner unless there is a specific reason for it.
I have been married and divorced twice, I was the higher earner in both marriages and never combined finances. The thought of having to support another adult, without good reason, during marriage or after divorce is something I did not want. I have a child from my 2nd marriage and now I am too old to have more kids (too high risk). Since I will not have any more kids, I see no reason to get married again (I suppose for many people having kids is not a reason enough either).
Thanks for the reply. You were totally wise to separate finances.
My girlfriend does not want any financial support because it makes her uncomfortable. So separating finances would solve the problem. I should dig deeper into marriage system in Japan and see if we can do that.
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Why not just talk about it with her? If you are not cofortable to do this, and you feel the converstion wont go well, you have some work to do together before contemplationg marriage.
your partner may feel she loses her choices because you will equate high income with more power.
she may think you will expect her to work and do all the household chores.
she may think you work too hard and too late and will not be good company.
Thanks for the reply. I've briefly mentioned it, but I should have a proper talk at some point.
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I think you’re missing the concept of marriage.
The idea is to find a spouse that you love unconditionally, regardless of how much money they make, and caring so much about that person that you simply cannot imagine living life without them. It also includes having complete faith in your spouse, and trusting that a divorce for financial gain would never even cross their mind.
If financial freedom is worth more to you than the woman you’re choosing to spend your life with, you should not get married. Yes, I’d like to be financially independent, but if it meant not being with my wife, then I’d rather live in a cardboard box working full time for the rest of my life.
Some things in life are worth far more than FIRE.
Thanks for the reply. You are right. I guess I've been brainwashed by media that divorce is very common. Those divorcees once loved and trusted each other. That's why it's hard for me to be optimistic about marriage.
FallenTimber has the concept right, but you have the facts: Marriage is not easy (it has its ups and downs), divorce is common, and most divorcees at one time loved their spouses. Still doesn't mean marriage isn't worth it, but in my mind it does mean that you need to be damn sure that the person you are marrying is someone you want to spend the literal rest of your life with. If your girlfriend doesn't meet this threshold within six months, I'd say cut bait and move on. Good luck.
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There is probably a good historical reason for divorce laws to be the way they are in Japan.
Indeed, a large income disparity makes if more attractive for the low-saving spouse to file a divorce. Don't get married, unless you find someone with similar income and savings rate.
I think going the way through saving in a separate company won't work. As long as you are the owner, your wife will probably get half of that too in some way or another. Otherwise that would have been a golden backdoor for all married high earners.
Is there any good reason why you would want to get married other than for romantic reasons? Do you want to get children? Are your rights as a father for your biological child different depending on whether you are married or not? Then finding a higher earning potential wife would perhaps give you the option to FIRE together with your family.
Thanks for the reply.
There is probably a good historical reason for divorce laws to be the way they are in Japan.
Yeah probably.
I wrote in other comment, but I want to get married only because she wants to.
Finding a higher earning potential wife, that would be tough. I have to look for models, actresses, doctors or entrepreneurs! But I should try.
I haven't been successful in dating, so I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to women.
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Why do you say that men are at a disadvantage? Isn't it just that the higher earning spouse is at a disadvantage?
Don't be sexist!
Also, don't get married if you are worried about it. But don't be surprised if lots of women pass on that arrangement.
Thanks for the reply. I'm so sorry. that was a false generalization.
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I'm not saying that losing $1m wouldn't suck, but you'd still end up with the other $1m if we're talking 50/50 split on $2m. I'm not sure what the cost of living in Japan is compared to the US, but I'd bet that as a single guy you could easily still be FI off that $1m. Just a weak thought from someone who hasn't experienced divorce.
The fear goes both ways. Imagine being her. You have a low income but you are with someone who earns a tremendous amount more. What if he cheats on you? What if he divorces you because he has the money to flash and not care? Because he has high-paying skills and will easily be fine if he leaves you? You could easily flip your own fear around: does making a ton of money encourage a spouse to get divorced?
Sometimes people do horrible things during divorce. But you have to realize that everybody has fear inside. I think one large part of marriage is about coming together and being vulnerable despite those fears. But I've also never been married, so I could very easily have this wrong
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Don’t get married. If you’re not planning on having children and you’re this concerned and you can’t do a prenuptial agreeement, just date. Marriage is hard. Extreme disparity in income is hard. Finances are hard. I feel like you will resent her and make a self fulfilling prophecy and then you’ll lose half and hate her and yourself. Just date or find someone who makes close to what you do or make so much you don’t care if she takes half.
Thanks for the reply. You are totally spot on. Self fulfilling prophecy is dangerous.
Prenuptial agreement! I've never heard of it. I translated in Japanese and googled it. Sure enough, apparently you can do that in Japan, though it's not as common as in the US or Europe.
This is going to solve my problem! Thank you!
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Follow your daydreams! You sound like a man with a practical rather than romantic view of the relationship. Are you a little scared of opening your heart?
When you think of committing to marriage, try to spend a bit more time focussed on the benefits of mutual care and support. Trust is important, and if you are kind and caring this flows back to you.
These are things money can not buy.
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I think you’re missing the concept of marriage.
The idea is to find a spouse that you love unconditionally, regardless of how much money they make, and caring so much about that person that you simply cannot imagine living life without them. It also includes having complete faith in your spouse, and trusting that a divorce for financial gain would never even cross their mind.
If financial freedom is worth more to you than the woman you’re choosing to spend your life with, you should not get married. Yes, I’d like to be financially independent, but if it meant not being with my wife, then I’d rather live in a cardboard box working full time for the rest of my life.
Some things in life are worth far more than FIRE.
Thanks for the reply. You are right. I guess I've been brainwashed by media that divorce is very common. Those divorcees once loved and trusted each other. That's why it's hard for me to be optimistic about marriage.
FallenTimber has the concept right, but you have the facts: Marriage is not easy (it has its ups and downs), divorce is common, and most divorcees at one time loved their spouses. Still doesn't mean marriage isn't worth it, but in my mind it does mean that you need to be damn sure that the person you are marrying is someone you want to spend the literal rest of your life with. If your girlfriend doesn't meet this threshold within six months, I'd say cut bait and move on. Good luck.
Thanks for the reply. You are right.
The definition of the rest of your life is so much heavier now. 100 years ago life expectancy was somewhere around 40. Thanks to longevity technology, our generation might live to 120 or 150 years old. Who knows. Choosing someone to spend my life with for the next 100 years seems utterly insane.
People grow and change. I'm a software engineer, but just 8 years ago I was a miserable amateur musician struggling in Tokyo. I have no idea what I would be doing or thinking 5 years later, let alone 50 years. I'm sure I'll have a completely different philosophy of life.
I don't want to sound cocky, but I grow faster than my peers. I value learning, so I constantly learn new things, read lots of books, and try to make myself more valuable, smarter, and wiser. I get this feeling that unless my wife grows at similar pace, my marriage would be difficult. Not sure how someone like Bill Gates keeps the happy relationship.
Kind of off topic, but recent divorce of Jeff Bezos makes me a little depressed.
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I'm not saying that losing $1m wouldn't suck, but you'd still end up with the other $1m if we're talking 50/50 split on $2m. I'm not sure what the cost of living in Japan is compared to the US, but I'd bet that as a single guy you could easily still be FI off that $1m. Just a weak thought from someone who hasn't experienced divorce.
The fear goes both ways. Imagine being her. You have a low income but you are with someone who earns a tremendous amount more. What if he cheats on you? What if he divorces you because he has the money to flash and not care? Because he has high-paying skills and will easily be fine if he leaves you? You could easily flip your own fear around: does making a ton of money encourage a spouse to get divorced?
Sometimes people do horrible things during divorce. But you have to realize that everybody has fear inside. I think one large part of marriage is about coming together and being vulnerable despite those fears. But I've also never been married, so I could very easily have this wrong
Thanks for your reply. I actually don't need that much. I'm frugal so I can live comfortably with $20K a year.
That's an interesting thought. If I were her, I might think that way.
Can I ask why you are single?
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No one who gets married wants to get divorced. But people change what they want from life, not necessarily who they are, quicker than you think. Without kids or staying madly in love with someone, long term commitment is very hard. Some couples, very few, have that magic. Some are together because they don’t want to be alone or they can’t afford to be apart or for the kids. Don’t rush that decision, and don’t make the decision because of societal pressure. Marry the person you can’t imagine your life without and who you’d sacrifice everything for. If you don’t feel that strongly, then just date.
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100 years ago life expectancy was somewhere around 40.
From my understanding, this statistic is accurate but very misleading. For the context of marriage, you should really consider life expectancy under the condition that someone has surpassed childhood and reach marriageable age (childhood mortality was one of the leading killers in the old days). Here's a brief discussion of the topic, though I couldn't quickly come up with the stats that show life expectancy given you were old enough to get married:
http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dmortality.htm (http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dmortality.htm)
That being said, one of the hardest parts about Mustachianism is separating the power of money from the love of money. Money can be a powerful tool, but the desire of it should not get in the way of living a fulfilling life. As someone else eloquently noted, it would be better to live in a cardboard box and be forced to work the rest of one's life than not to have the freedom to pursue happiness.
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Follow your daydreams! You sound like a man with a practical rather than romantic view of the relationship. Are you a little scared of opening your heart?
When you think of committing to marriage, try to spend a bit more time focussed on the benefits of mutual care and support. Trust is important, and if you are kind and caring this flows back to you.
These are things money can not buy.
Thanks for your reply.
You got me. I am indeed scared of opening my heart.
Most divorces, I think, are the result of people prematurely getting married just because they love each other. Love is not constant, it's a living creature. That's why I don't want my love to distort my rationality.
That said, I agree with you that this is something money cannot buy. You need balance. After all, it's not about money, it's about happiness.
The irony is that if I made $30k instead of $200k, I wouldn't have this problem.
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Thanks for your reply. I actually don't need that much. I'm frugal so I can live comfortably with $20K a year.
+1 I think this is going to make your life significantly easier no matter what :)
Can I ask why you are single?
I just haven't found the right girl, yet, but not completely for lack of trying. I only discovered the FI community a year and a half ago, so in some ways I'm grateful to be starting in this direction and really figuring out my life goals first.
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No one who gets married wants to get divorced. But people change what they want from life, not necessarily who they are, quicker than you think. Without kids or staying madly in love with someone, long term commitment is very hard. Some couples, very few, have that magic. Some are together because they don’t want to be alone or they can’t afford to be apart or for the kids. Don’t rush that decision, and don’t make the decision because of societal pressure. Marry the person you can’t imagine your life without and who you’d sacrifice everything for. If you don’t feel that strongly, then just date.
So true. For me, I don't want kids, enjoy spending time alone, and don't mind doing chores. I'm self sufficient. And while my girlfriend is awesome, I don't feel that strongly for her. She is 26, and she thinks if she can't get married by 30, her life is over. I want to make her happy, but I know I shouldn't marry her out of pity.
Maybe after living together I will have more data points to make a better decision.
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100 years ago life expectancy was somewhere around 40.
From my understanding, this statistic is accurate but very misleading. For the context of marriage, you should really consider life expectancy under the condition that someone has surpassed childhood and reach marriageable age (childhood mortality was one of the leading killers in the old days). Here's a brief discussion of the topic, though I couldn't quickly come up with the stats that show life expectancy given you were old enough to get married:
http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dmortality.htm (http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dmortality.htm)
That being said, one of the hardest parts about Mustachianism is separating the power of money from the love of money. Money can be a powerful tool, but the desire of it should not get in the way of living a fulfilling life. As someone else eloquently noted, it would be better to live in a cardboard box and be forced to work the rest of one's life than not to have the freedom to pursue happiness.
Ah, you're right. No wonder it's lower than I expected.
I know. Managing my psychology is harder than mechanics of FI.
Just 6 months ago, my income was $6k/month. I was very depressed at work that I was determined to reach FI ASAP. That means no money to spend on dating. I gave up romance all together. I became super frugal, and after I reached the point where I couldn't cut my expense anymore($800), I focused on increasing income. I negotiated my rate, got more work, and in a matter of 6 months my income skyrocketed. Not only that, now I actually enjoy my work. Now it seems ridiculous to give up the income. So my plan to quit my job and enjoy a solitary life changed. I decided to give dating another shot. I met a girl, and long story short, this post was born.
It's funny how humans always find problems to solve.
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I'm not saying that losing $1m wouldn't suck, but you'd still end up with the other $1m if we're talking 50/50 split on $2m.
Thinking about this, would it be possible for you to save twice what you think you would need, so that if you get divorced and your ex takes half you'll still be OK? Some people can do this with an extra few years of work and they're willing to, others it wouldn't work.
It also sounds like you're still changing a lot, and that can make a marriage difficult. It may be wise to wait until your "rate of change" slows down. From what I've heard, Japanese women tend to have more pressure to marry young than we Americans do, so the kindest thing may be to let her go within the next year if you don't want to marry.
If you were American I would never advise you to marry someone just because they really want to get married or really want to marry you, I'd say that you need to want to marry them as well. But I don't know if Japanese culture is very different in that respect, do you have men friends who are satisfied or happy in their marriages and you could ask them about why they married? How they knew it was the right thing?
Also, you mentioned that your girlfriend wants marriage to help protect against infidelity - could you explain more about this? In the US we'd usually argue that marriage doesn't do that at all, but again, the social pressures may be different for you.
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I started seeing someone, and I've been thinking about the possibility of marriage.
However, I'm really afraid of divorce.
If you're not even married yet and are already thinking of divorce, then you should not get married.
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Don’t marry her. She only has one life - let her spend it with someone who loves her.
On a personal note, you don’t come across as very Japanese. You should be aware of the social expectations on women and understand why she wants to get married. It’s not to protect herself from infidelity, as much as it is to align with society’s norms. 80% of women never return to the workforce after having their first child - of course she wants to ensure her relationship is stable. Why else would she take the risk in her professional career to raise YOUR children, make your bento, manage the household, etc??
I’m generalizing here, but to me, she is the one taking the greater risk. Can you imagine becoming financially, emotionally dependent on someone else for the rest of your life?
Risk of infidelity?? Please. There’s a reason the health spas, massage parlors, and happening bars thrive in Japan - there’s high demand. Being married doesn’t exactly get you stopped in the door...
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On a personal note, you don’t come across as very Japanese. You should be aware of the social expectations on women and understand why she wants to get married. It’s not to protect herself from infidelity, as much as it is to align with society’s norms. 80% of women never return to the workforce after having their first child - of course she wants to ensure her relationship is stable. Why else would she take the risk in her professional career to raise YOUR children, make your bento, manage the household, etc??
You appear to have missed this:
Neither of us wants kids.
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Maybe after living together I will have more data points to make a better decision.
What are the de facto relationship laws in Japan? If you live together and don't get married, are there still laws controlling division of assets if you break up?
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On a personal note, you don’t come across as very Japanese. You should be aware of the social expectations on women and understand why she wants to get married. It’s not to protect herself from infidelity, as much as it is to align with society’s norms. 80% of women never return to the workforce after having their first child - of course she wants to ensure her relationship is stable. Why else would she take the risk in her professional career to raise YOUR children, make your bento, manage the household, etc??
You appear to have missed this:
Neither of us wants kids.
You appear to have a lacking understanding of the pressure placed on women in Japan.
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As a young person considering marriage, you should read the following website. It's a bit old-fashioned, but that probably won't bother you:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
It gives very rational advice on what makes relationships work, and what does not. Read the basic concepts; fill out the questionnaires (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html) and consider how well you and your girlfriend fulfill each other's emotional needs (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html). Very seldom will you find a perfect match, but hopefully the mismatches will happen in only your low priority needs. If you can't fulfill each other's top priority needs without making yourselves permanently unhappy and uncomfortable, you aren't well suited for marriage.
You have to be willing to put the work into making a happy marriage, and to have enough flexibility to make some changes as you and your spouse age and develop different needs. However, if you are a compatible pair, the work shouldn't be too hard as long as you are consistent and develop good habits from the beginning... and the rewards of a happy marriage are many!
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On a personal note, you don’t come across as very Japanese. You should be aware of the social expectations on women and understand why she wants to get married. It’s not to protect herself from infidelity, as much as it is to align with society’s norms. 80% of women never return to the workforce after having their first child - of course she wants to ensure her relationship is stable. Why else would she take the risk in her professional career to raise YOUR children, make your bento, manage the household, etc??
You appear to have missed this:
Neither of us wants kids.
You appear to have a lacking understanding of the pressure placed on women in Japan.
Your post mentioned the children element twice. I was merely pointing it out to you that it's not a consideration. If you're going to be taking a harsh tone with the OP, at least make sure you've read their post properly.
Plus, you appear to assume that I'm not also from a conservative Asian upbringing myself. I've personally lived (and still live with) this kind of societal pressure, so I don't need preaching from an American living abroad
AND by the way, it's possible to push against those types of expectations. Maybe the OP's girlfriend doesn't want to, and that's fine too, but just saying, it can be done.
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On a personal note, you don’t come across as very Japanese. You should be aware of the social expectations on women and understand why she wants to get married. It’s not to protect herself from infidelity, as much as it is to align with society’s norms. 80% of women never return to the workforce after having their first child - of course she wants to ensure her relationship is stable. Why else would she take the risk in her professional career to raise YOUR children, make your bento, manage the household, etc??
You appear to have missed this:
Neither of us wants kids.
You appear to have a lacking understanding of the pressure placed on women in Japan.
Your post mentioned the children element twice. I was merely pointing it out to you that it's not a consideration. If you're going to be taking a harsh tone with the OP, at least make sure you've read their post properly.
Plus, you appear to assume that I'm not also from a conservative Asian upbringing myself. I've personally lived (and still live with) this kind of societal pressure, so I don't need preaching from an American living abroad
AND by the way, it's possible to push against those types of expectations. Maybe the OP's girlfriend doesn't want to, and that's fine too, but just saying, it can be done.
I’m open to learn. Tell me more about the social structure in japan.
Yes, you are correct in that I overlooked the OP’s interpretation that his wife doesn’t want kids. Doesn’t mean it’s accurate, and doesn’t mean it won’t change as she gets older.
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I’m open to learn. Tell me more about the social structure in japan.
No thanks, I'm good. Given the OP is from Japan himself, I'm sure he knows it well enough and doesn't need people foreignsplaining it here.
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I’m open to learn. Tell me more about the social structure in japan.
No thanks, I'm good. Given the OP is from Japan himself, I'm sure he knows it well enough and doesn't need people foreignsplaining it here.
Yeah, he probably doesn’t need advice at all.
“If I get rich, will my wife leave me??”
What a world we live in
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Thanks for your reply. I actually don't need that much. I'm frugal so I can live comfortably with $20K a year.
+1 I think this is going to make your life significantly easier no matter what :)
Can I ask why you are single?
I just haven't found the right girl, yet, but not completely for lack of trying. I only discovered the FI community a year and a half ago, so in some ways I'm grateful to be starting in this direction and really figuring out my life goals first.
I see. I know it takes some time to adjust to this new paradigm. I discovered FI only a year ago myself.
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I'm not saying that losing $1m wouldn't suck, but you'd still end up with the other $1m if we're talking 50/50 split on $2m.
Thinking about this, would it be possible for you to save twice what you think you would need, so that if you get divorced and your ex takes half you'll still be OK? Some people can do this with an extra few years of work and they're willing to, others it wouldn't work.
It also sounds like you're still changing a lot, and that can make a marriage difficult. It may be wise to wait until your "rate of change" slows down. From what I've heard, Japanese women tend to have more pressure to marry young than we Americans do, so the kindest thing may be to let her go within the next year if you don't want to marry.
If you were American I would never advise you to marry someone just because they really want to get married or really want to marry you, I'd say that you need to want to marry them as well. But I don't know if Japanese culture is very different in that respect, do you have men friends who are satisfied or happy in their marriages and you could ask them about why they married? How they knew it was the right thing?
Also, you mentioned that your girlfriend wants marriage to help protect against infidelity - could you explain more about this? In the US we'd usually argue that marriage doesn't do that at all, but again, the social pressures may be different for you.
Thanks for your reply.
would it be possible for you to save twice what you think you would need, so that if you get divorced and your ex takes half you'll still be OK?
Sure, it is possible. That would be an interesting strategy.
It may be wise to wait until your "rate of change" slows down.
I couldn't agree more, though I'm not sure when that's going to be. I think it's more about my maturity. I'm so much smarter than I used to be, but I still feel like I have no idea how the world works. Interpersonal relationships are very confusing for an analytical person like me. I have a lot to learn in order to become an attractive man.
Japanese women tend to have more pressure to marry young than we Americans do
Some women have a fake wedding just to escape from the pressure from their parents. There is a company that provides a fake husband and audience. It's an insane culture.
do you have men friends who are satisfied or happy in their marriages and you could ask them about why they married? How they knew it was the right thing?
I have two best friends, both of whom married to an older woman 2 years ago. We tend to talk about work and IT industry. I should ask them about their personal lives.
Also, you mentioned that your girlfriend wants marriage to help protect against infidelity - could you explain more about this?
Okay, I did not explain this very well. What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
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Wow - the social pressure to marry sounds insane in Japan. How does that mesh with Japan having the lowest birth rate in the world?
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Maybe after living together I will have more data points to make a better decision.
What are the de facto relationship laws in Japan? If you live together and don't get married, are there still laws controlling division of assets if you break up?
Thanks for your reply. There is no such thing, although it might get nasty. If one of them does not want to break up and stays in the house, the other has to force him/her to leave.
If you co-sign an apartment contract, obviously it will be complicated to resolve the breakup. Even if you don't co-sign, typically you won't be able to afford the rent on your own. That's why Japanese landlord usually doesn't approve a couple to rent unless they can convince him that they will get married in the near future.
If I were to live with my girlfriend, I would buy a house that I can afford on my own and charge her rent. That way if we broke up, I could just keep the house and not deal with legal complication.
While writing this, I began to think that it's not something you can just "try". I guess a safer approach would be to buy a house near her parents', where she lives, and let her stay on weekends.
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As a young person considering marriage, you should read the following website. It's a bit old-fashioned, but that probably won't bother you:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
It gives very rational advice on what makes relationships work, and what does not. Read the basic concepts; fill out the questionnaires (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html) and consider how well you and your girlfriend fulfill each other's emotional needs (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html). Very seldom will you find a perfect match, but hopefully the mismatches will happen in only your low priority needs. If you can't fulfill each other's top priority needs without making yourselves permanently unhappy and uncomfortable, you aren't well suited for marriage.
You have to be willing to put the work into making a happy marriage, and to have enough flexibility to make some changes as you and your spouse age and develop different needs. However, if you are a compatible pair, the work shouldn't be too hard as long as you are consistent and develop good habits from the beginning... and the rewards of a happy marriage are many!
Thanks for the website. I can see that categorizing different emotional needs is pretty useful.
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Wow - the social pressure to marry sounds insane in Japan. How does that mesh with Japan having the lowest birth rate in the world?
Thanks for your reply. I am no expert on this topic, so I will put the link I found here.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/
Just like in the US, income inequality is a huge problem in Japan.
I'm fortunate to be in tech industry. Except few industries like tech and banking, many people don't make enough money to afford children.
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As a young person considering marriage, you should read the following website. It's a bit old-fashioned, but that probably won't bother you:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
It gives very rational advice on what makes relationships work, and what does not. Read the basic concepts; fill out the questionnaires (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html) and consider how well you and your girlfriend fulfill each other's emotional needs (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html). Very seldom will you find a perfect match, but hopefully the mismatches will happen in only your low priority needs. If you can't fulfill each other's top priority needs without making yourselves permanently unhappy and uncomfortable, you aren't well suited for marriage.
You have to be willing to put the work into making a happy marriage, and to have enough flexibility to make some changes as you and your spouse age and develop different needs. However, if you are a compatible pair, the work shouldn't be too hard as long as you are consistent and develop good habits from the beginning... and the rewards of a happy marriage are many!
Thanks for the website. I can see that categorizing different emotional needs is pretty useful.
Yes, some people don't like that site because a "Love Bank" is not the most romantic concept, but you seem to be practical-minded and inclined to take a serious approach to your relationships. And the results may be perfectly romantic.
I think of a happy marriage as being like a Hawaiian vacation... whether you won free tickets in the lottery or saved up for it, you'll still enjoy it. And you're more likely to get it if you work for it, than hoping it falls in your lap.
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What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.
You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.
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What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.
You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.
+1
Please don't marry her or anyone unless you learn exactly what is horrifying about the statement quoted above.
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I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.
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I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.
Whether it is a romantic marriage or a business contract, he's looking for ways around the contract itself. It seems that his own culture is taking steps to protect the lesser earning spouse, and he wants to defeat that. If he's already planning to cheat, then FI isn't what is encouraging someone to divorce him. It's his own attitude.
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What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.
You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.
Thanks for your reply.
Okay, my English was not good enough to make the point.
I am not planning infidelity. I'm only speaking hypothetically.
This "protection against infidelity" part introduced a lot of misunderstanding. So I will write in detail how this topic came up.
The other day my girlfriend and I were discussing whether or not the concept of marriage is outdated and what is the value of marriage versus common law marriage. She told me that common law marriage will not penalize infidelity, so there is value in marriage. And I thought she made a good point.
I hope this clarifies it.
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I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.
Thanks for your support.
I believe in rational thinking.
Many people get married because that's what society expects you to do.
But what I learned in the book "Sapiens" is that marriage is just a story we tell ourselves. Unlike sleep or sex, humans have no biological need for marriage.
We are all confused about marriage because of Hollywood and Disney and our own country's culture.
Why do we need the complex contract to signify that two people love each other? Why not just start living together?
Does being married to the same person for your whole life even make sense?
So I think it's important to question the status quo and clearly define marriage from a practical perspective. I try to think of it as a product that I can buy. Should I buy marriage? It's foolish to buy something before fully understanding it.
When you buy a computer, there is a warranty that comes with it. If the computer stops working without you doing anything, you can get your money back. But if you drop it and it stops working, you won't. I never buy a computer expecting it to break or trying to break it. But since it's something expensive and essential, I need to know what happens if it breaks.
Same thing with marriage. I'm thinking about the consequences of divorce not because it's something I
want to do, but because it's part of the product.
That's what this post is all about.
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udacian - you sound a bit like me and my husband before we got married. The only difference is that we knew that we wanted to be together forever - the idea of cheating or divorce never crossed our minds and also we wanted children. Anyway, we lived together for 3 years and didn't get married. Mainly because we didn't want the big, expensive wedding or the white dress etc. and also we are procrastinators and didn't see the point of marriage when we were already living together. We've always been frugal and it's just not our style.
Anyway, I got pregnant (planned) and then suddenly everything changed. We just realized that we were now responsible for a child and we wanted her to have the best things in life. Having married parents makes a difference here in Italy even though many people have kids these days in de facto relationships. For example, legally, if one of us were to die, if we were not married then our property would go to our closest relatives (there is no way to change this via a will in Italy) which would be our child and our siblings - not the de facto spouse. Another thing is that if we were not married registering my husband as the father would be more complicated and there would be a lot more bureaucratic hassles in general. Another thing which kind of surprised us is that getting married really meant something to us even though I was already pregnant at the time and we just had a tiny wedding in the courthouse. Luckily we only had 3 guests/witnesses present at the wedding because my husband cried. Anyway our relationship changed completely when we got married -very hard to explain but it just did. We're very happy but would probably also have been happy living together long term.
As a child of divorce myself, it took me a long time to be ready to get married. I was 32 when I met my husband (he was 41) and 36 when we got married. I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive. If I'd married the boyfriends I had in my 20s it would be ended in disaster. You need to ask yourself a few things before you get married IMO: 1) are there any BIG problems in the relationship? for example, does one person love the other more? Do the inlaws meddle? Do you have different spending styles? Does one of you want children and the other doesn't? and 2) can you imagine yourself happy together in old age? Imagine yourselves in rocking chairs on the front porch when you're both 85 years old? Does that image seem possible with this person?
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You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26. The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.
I also agree that you shouldn't marry her if you're not whole-heartedly in love with her. I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
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While I'm recommending books, here's another book that I always recommend to couples considering marriage: https://www.amazon.com/Money-Harmony-Road-Individuals-Couples/dp/0982289510
I'm not sure why this has so few reviews; perhaps a new edition?
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You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26. The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.
Oh come now. There is a distinct chance that the OPs girlfriend might change her mind about wanting children. Implying that a woman must be mentally damaged to continue deciding against children into middle age is naive and offensive. Maybe it was a slip of the keyboard. Would you care to rephrase?
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udacian - you sound a bit like me and my husband before we got married. The only difference is that we knew that we wanted to be together forever - the idea of cheating or divorce never crossed our minds and also we wanted children. Anyway, we lived together for 3 years and didn't get married. Mainly because we didn't want the big, expensive wedding or the white dress etc. and also we are procrastinators and didn't see the point of marriage when we were already living together. We've always been frugal and it's just not our style.
Anyway, I got pregnant (planned) and then suddenly everything changed. We just realized that we were now responsible for a child and we wanted her to have the best things in life. Having married parents makes a difference here in Italy even though many people have kids these days in de facto relationships. For example, legally, if one of us were to die, if we were not married then our property would go to our closest relatives (there is no way to change this via a will in Italy) which would be our child and our siblings - not the de facto spouse. Another thing is that if we were not married registering my husband as the father would be more complicated and there would be a lot more bureaucratic hassles in general. Another thing which kind of surprised us is that getting married really meant something to us even though I was already pregnant at the time and we just had a tiny wedding in the courthouse. Luckily we only had 3 guests/witnesses present at the wedding because my husband cried. Anyway our relationship changed completely when we got married -very hard to explain but it just did. We're very happy but would probably also have been happy living together long term.
As a child of divorce myself, it took me a long time to be ready to get married. I was 32 when I met my husband (he was 41) and 36 when we got married. I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive. If I'd married the boyfriends I had in my 20s it would be ended in disaster. You need to ask yourself a few things before you get married IMO: 1) are there any BIG problems in the relationship? for example, does one person love the other more? Do the inlaws meddle? Do you have different spending styles? Does one of you want children and the other doesn't? and 2) can you imagine yourself happy together in old age? Imagine yourselves in rocking chairs on the front porch when you're both 85 years old? Does that image seem possible with this person?
Thanks for your reply. I heard that many people in Italy don't get married and just live together. So it's interesting to hear from someone who did get married.
I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive.
I totally agree. It's an arbitrary pressure that we put ourselves.
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You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26. The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.
I also agree that you shouldn't marry her if you're not whole-heartedly in love with her. I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
Thanks for your reply.
Her reason for not wanting kids is that she wants to live her life and not be responsible for another human being. Also she's not confident that she can love her child unconditionally. My reason is exactly the same.
I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.
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Why do we need the complex contract to signify that two people love each other? Why not just start living together?
Does being married to the same person for your whole life even make sense?
....
I'm going to answer this in terms of the issue you are currently worried about, asset-splitting during divorce. The general idea here is that, in a marriage, both people are taking their partner and the relationship in mind while making decisions about their own lives. Often, this entails financial sacrifices.
As long as the couple happily married, these trade-offs should be worth it; both partners benefit from the relationship. In my own marriage, my husband would probably earn 2-3 times as much money if he weren't married to me, because he has moved multiple times for my career, and we will never live in the best cities for his field. But it's worth it to him, because he loves me and enjoys being married to me. Likewise, there are jobs that I haven't applied for because they would limit my husband's career path too much; but it's worth it to me, because I love him and enjoy being married to him.
These benefits aren't always symmetrical, though. A parent who stays home with the children is the most obvious example, but there are many others. One partner may turn down a great job opportunity because it would require moving away from the other partner's job. Or agree to live in a smaller town, where career opportunities are more limited, in order to be near the other partner's family. Or turn down a job that requires lots of travel, because it would disrupt their relationship. Or go part-time because the other partner is a high-earner, and it makes since for the lower-earning partner to focus on running the home life so that their free time together can be as pleasant as possible. There are endless permutations.
So, when dividing assets, the assumption is that both partners have been prioritizing the overall economic goals of the family, and therefore the assets of the family should be mutually shared, regardless of whose name was on the paycheck/bank account.
Obviously, this assumption doesn't hold for every couple. If you think that getting married will not change your career decisions at all, or those of your girlfriend, maybe you shouldn't get married. But don't be surprised if that's not the model of partnership your girlfriend is looking for.
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Having been divorced, I can say that having someone with their own career, equally valuable 401K, etc. helps. The division of assets is not just an exercise of dividing up the fruits of your own labor.
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udacian - from what you just said, you need to break up with her now. It's much kinder in the long term.
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I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.
Don't marry this woman. She doesn't deserve it. To marry, you should be crazy about each other.
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Think about this for a minute udacian. The reason that you are "not very good with women" may be because they understand that you see them as a commodity, to be traded for a better model should the opportunity arise. This is not an attractive feature.
Most women are attracted by warmth and good humour and trustworthiness.
These are the attributes you should work on.
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Think about this for a minute udacian. The reason that you are "not very good with women" may be because they understand that you see them as a commodity, to be traded for a better model should the opportunity arise. This is not an attractive feature.
Most women are attracted by warmth and good humour and trustworthiness.
These are the attributes you should work on.
Yes, this. Look, I know my husband is not objectively the smartest/hottest/funniest/highest-earning/whatever guy in the world. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could have found someone who scored higher on all of those things. I spent my 20s in Silicon Valley; single women had a large pool of men to choose from. But I'd rather have my husband than a generic smart/hot/funny/rich dude. If you don't feel that way about your girlfriend, you probably shouldn't get married, and you definitely shouldn't be surprised if/when she trades *you* in for a better model.
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I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.
This is why you should break up. You are holding out for someone better,and feel like you are settling. This is fair to her, as you are taking away HER best years of her life to find someone who loves equally. Eventually when one goes in with this thinking, they will end up on divorce.