Author Topic: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?  (Read 3368 times)

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2019, 01:43:40 PM »
Maybe after living together I will have more data points to make a better decision.

What are the de facto relationship laws in Japan? If you live together and don't get married, are there still laws controlling division of assets if you break up?

Thanks for your reply. There is no such thing, although it might get nasty. If one of them does not want to break up and stays in the house, the other has to force him/her to leave.
If you co-sign an apartment contract, obviously it will be complicated to resolve the breakup. Even if you don't co-sign, typically you won't be able to afford the rent on your own. That's why Japanese landlord usually doesn't approve a couple to rent unless they can convince him that they will get married in the near future.

If I were to live with my girlfriend, I would buy a house that I can afford on my own and charge her rent. That way if we broke up, I could just keep the house and not deal with legal complication.

While writing this, I began to think that it's not something you can just "try". I guess a safer approach would be to buy a house near her parents', where she lives, and let her stay on weekends.

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2019, 02:10:06 PM »
As a young person considering marriage, you should read the following website. It's a bit old-fashioned, but that probably won't bother you:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

It gives very rational advice on what makes relationships work, and what does not. Read the basic concepts; fill out the questionnaires and consider how well you and your girlfriend fulfill each other's emotional needs. Very seldom will you find a perfect match, but hopefully the mismatches will happen in only your low priority needs.  If you can't fulfill each other's top priority needs without making yourselves permanently unhappy and uncomfortable, you aren't well suited for marriage.

You have to be willing to put the work into making a happy marriage, and to have enough flexibility to make some changes as you and your spouse age and develop different needs.  However, if you are a compatible pair, the work shouldn't be too hard as long as you are consistent and develop good habits from the beginning... and the rewards of a happy marriage are many!

Thanks for the website. I can see that categorizing different emotional needs is pretty useful.

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2019, 02:43:24 PM »
Wow - the social pressure to marry sounds insane in Japan.  How does that mesh with Japan having the lowest birth rate in the world?

Thanks for your reply. I am no expert on this topic, so I will put the link I found here.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/

Just like in the US, income inequality is a huge problem in Japan.

I'm fortunate to be in tech industry. Except few industries like tech and banking, many people don't make enough money to afford children.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2019, 03:30:12 PM »
As a young person considering marriage, you should read the following website. It's a bit old-fashioned, but that probably won't bother you:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

It gives very rational advice on what makes relationships work, and what does not. Read the basic concepts; fill out the questionnaires and consider how well you and your girlfriend fulfill each other's emotional needs. Very seldom will you find a perfect match, but hopefully the mismatches will happen in only your low priority needs.  If you can't fulfill each other's top priority needs without making yourselves permanently unhappy and uncomfortable, you aren't well suited for marriage.

You have to be willing to put the work into making a happy marriage, and to have enough flexibility to make some changes as you and your spouse age and develop different needs.  However, if you are a compatible pair, the work shouldn't be too hard as long as you are consistent and develop good habits from the beginning... and the rewards of a happy marriage are many!

Thanks for the website. I can see that categorizing different emotional needs is pretty useful.

Yes,  some people don't like that site because a "Love Bank" is not the most romantic concept, but you seem to be practical-minded and inclined to take a serious approach to your relationships. And the results may be perfectly romantic.

I think of a happy marriage as being like a Hawaiian vacation... whether you won free tickets in the lottery or saved up for it, you'll still enjoy it.  And you're more likely to get it if you work for it, than hoping it falls in your lap.


Kyle Schuant

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2019, 03:55:59 PM »
What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.

You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.

BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2019, 05:48:29 PM »
What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.

You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.
+1

Please don't marry her or anyone unless you learn exactly what is horrifying about the statement quoted above.

kei te pai

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 233
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2019, 09:10:34 PM »
I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.

BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2019, 09:35:55 PM »
I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.

Whether it is a romantic marriage or a business contract, he's looking for ways around the contract itself. It seems that his own culture is taking steps to protect the lesser earning spouse, and he wants to defeat that. If he's already planning to cheat, then FI isn't what is encouraging someone to divorce him. It's his own attitude.





udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2019, 12:06:41 AM »
What I meant was that if I cheated on her during marriage and got caught, she could file a divorce and get money. So I will have a negative financial consequence.
She should definitely not marry you. Already planning infidelity and divorce, and thinking mainly of your money.

You are a contributor to Japan's low birth rate.

Thanks for your reply.
Okay, my English was not good enough to make the point.
I am not planning infidelity. I'm only speaking hypothetically.

This "protection against infidelity" part introduced a lot of misunderstanding. So I will write in detail how this topic came up.

The other day my girlfriend and I were discussing whether or not the concept of marriage is outdated and what is the value of marriage versus common law marriage. She told me that common law marriage will not penalize infidelity, so there is value in marriage. And I thought she made a good point.

I hope this clarifies it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 02:02:26 AM by udacian »

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2019, 01:42:43 AM »
I think some of these posts are a bit harsh. Romantic marriage is a modern western construct. I think given cultural differences, language, and perhaps a bit of geekiness, the OP is being genuine and honest rather than disrespectful of his girlfriend.

Thanks for your support.

I believe in rational thinking.
Many people get married because that's what society expects you to do.
But what I learned in the book "Sapiens" is that marriage is just a story we tell ourselves. Unlike sleep or sex, humans have no biological need for marriage.
We are all confused about marriage because of Hollywood and Disney and our own country's culture.

Why do we need the complex contract to signify that two people love each other? Why not just start living together?
Does being married to the same person for your whole life even make sense?

So I think it's important to question the status quo and clearly define marriage from a practical perspective. I try to think of it as a product that I can buy. Should I buy marriage? It's foolish to buy something before fully understanding it.

When you buy a computer, there is a warranty that comes with it. If the computer stops working without you doing anything, you can get your money back. But if you drop it and it stops working, you won't. I never buy a computer expecting it to break or trying to break it. But since it's something expensive and essential, I need to know what happens if it breaks.

Same thing with marriage. I'm thinking about the consequences of divorce not because it's something I
want to do, but because it's part of the product.

That's what this post is all about.

Hula Hoop

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
  • Location: Italy
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 02:05:35 AM »
udacian - you sound a bit like me and my husband before we got married.  The only difference is that we knew that we wanted to be together forever - the idea of cheating or divorce never crossed our minds and also we wanted children.  Anyway, we lived together for 3 years and didn't get married.  Mainly because we didn't want the big, expensive wedding or the white dress etc. and also we are procrastinators and didn't see the point of marriage when we were already living together. We've always been frugal and it's just not our style. 

Anyway, I got pregnant (planned) and then suddenly everything changed.  We just realized that we were now responsible for a child and we wanted her to have the best things in life.  Having married parents makes a difference here in Italy even though many people have kids these days in de facto relationships.  For example, legally, if one of us were to die, if we were not married then our property would go to our closest relatives (there is no way to change this via a will in Italy) which would be our child and our siblings - not the de facto spouse.  Another thing is that if we were not married registering my husband as the father would be more complicated and there would be a lot more bureaucratic hassles in general.  Another thing which kind of surprised us is that getting married really meant something to us even though I was already pregnant at the time and we just had a tiny wedding in the courthouse.  Luckily we only had 3 guests/witnesses present at the wedding because my husband cried.  Anyway our relationship changed completely when we got married -very hard to explain but it just did.  We're very happy but would probably also have been happy living together long term.

As a child of divorce myself, it took me a long time to be ready to get married.  I was 32 when I met my husband (he was 41) and 36 when we got married.  I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive.  If I'd married the boyfriends I had in my 20s it would be ended in disaster.  You need to ask yourself a few things before you get married IMO: 1) are there any BIG problems in the relationship?  for example, does one person love the other more?  Do the inlaws meddle?  Do you have different spending styles?  Does one of you want children and the other doesn't?  and 2) can you imagine yourself happy together in old age?  Imagine yourselves in rocking chairs on the front porch when you're both 85 years old?  Does that image seem possible with this person?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 02:10:41 AM by Hula Hoop »

frugaldrummer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 08:09:22 AM »
You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26.  The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.

I also agree that you shouldn't marry her if you're not whole-heartedly in love with her. I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2019, 08:24:25 AM »
While I'm recommending books, here's another book that I always recommend to couples considering marriage: https://www.amazon.com/Money-Harmony-Road-Individuals-Couples/dp/0982289510

I'm not sure why this has so few reviews; perhaps a new edition?

Sailor Sam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3994
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2019, 08:30:25 AM »
You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26.  The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.

Oh come now. There is a distinct chance that the OPs girlfriend might change her mind about wanting children. Implying that a woman must be mentally damaged to continue deciding against children into middle age is naive and offensive. Maybe it was a slip of the keyboard. Would you care to rephrase?

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2019, 12:17:31 PM »
udacian - you sound a bit like me and my husband before we got married.  The only difference is that we knew that we wanted to be together forever - the idea of cheating or divorce never crossed our minds and also we wanted children.  Anyway, we lived together for 3 years and didn't get married.  Mainly because we didn't want the big, expensive wedding or the white dress etc. and also we are procrastinators and didn't see the point of marriage when we were already living together. We've always been frugal and it's just not our style. 

Anyway, I got pregnant (planned) and then suddenly everything changed.  We just realized that we were now responsible for a child and we wanted her to have the best things in life.  Having married parents makes a difference here in Italy even though many people have kids these days in de facto relationships.  For example, legally, if one of us were to die, if we were not married then our property would go to our closest relatives (there is no way to change this via a will in Italy) which would be our child and our siblings - not the de facto spouse.  Another thing is that if we were not married registering my husband as the father would be more complicated and there would be a lot more bureaucratic hassles in general.  Another thing which kind of surprised us is that getting married really meant something to us even though I was already pregnant at the time and we just had a tiny wedding in the courthouse.  Luckily we only had 3 guests/witnesses present at the wedding because my husband cried.  Anyway our relationship changed completely when we got married -very hard to explain but it just did.  We're very happy but would probably also have been happy living together long term.

As a child of divorce myself, it took me a long time to be ready to get married.  I was 32 when I met my husband (he was 41) and 36 when we got married.  I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive.  If I'd married the boyfriends I had in my 20s it would be ended in disaster.  You need to ask yourself a few things before you get married IMO: 1) are there any BIG problems in the relationship?  for example, does one person love the other more?  Do the inlaws meddle?  Do you have different spending styles?  Does one of you want children and the other doesn't?  and 2) can you imagine yourself happy together in old age?  Imagine yourselves in rocking chairs on the front porch when you're both 85 years old?  Does that image seem possible with this person?

Thanks for your reply. I heard that many people in Italy don't get married and just live together. So it's interesting to hear from someone who did get married.

Quote
I really think that the idea that you have to get married by a certain age is very destructive.
I totally agree. It's an arbitrary pressure that we put ourselves.

udacian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2019, 12:45:23 PM »
You mentioned she doesn't want kids but is only 26.  The odds of her changing her mind about that before age 35 are extremely high unless she had some kind of traumatic childhood that explains a lack of interest in having children.

I also agree that you shouldn't marry her if you're not whole-heartedly in love with her. I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).

Thanks for your reply.
Her reason for not wanting kids is that she wants to live her life and not be responsible for another human being. Also she's not confident that she can love her child unconditionally. My reason is exactly the same.

Quote
I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:50:05 PM by udacian »

historienne

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2019, 12:54:37 PM »

Why do we need the complex contract to signify that two people love each other? Why not just start living together?
Does being married to the same person for your whole life even make sense?

....



I'm going to answer this in terms of the issue you are currently worried about, asset-splitting during divorce. The general idea here is that, in a marriage, both people are taking their partner and the relationship in mind while making decisions about their own lives.  Often, this entails financial sacrifices.

As long as the couple happily married, these trade-offs should be worth it; both partners benefit from the relationship.  In my own marriage, my husband would probably earn 2-3 times as much money if he weren't married to me, because he has moved multiple times for my career, and we will never live in the best cities for his field.  But it's worth it to him, because he loves me and enjoys being married to me.  Likewise, there are jobs that I haven't applied for because they would limit my husband's career path too much; but it's worth it to me, because I love him and enjoy being married to him.

These benefits aren't always symmetrical, though.   A parent who stays home with the children is the most obvious example, but there are many others.  One partner may turn down a great job opportunity because it would require moving away from the other partner's job.  Or agree to live in a smaller town, where career opportunities are more limited, in order to be near the other partner's family.  Or turn down a job that requires lots of travel, because it would disrupt their relationship.  Or go part-time because the other partner is a high-earner, and it makes since for the lower-earning partner to focus on running the home life so that their free time together can be as pleasant as possible.  There are endless permutations.

So, when dividing assets, the assumption is that both partners have been prioritizing the overall economic goals of the family, and therefore the assets of the family should be mutually shared, regardless of whose name was on the paycheck/bank account.

Obviously, this assumption doesn't hold for every couple.  If you think that getting married will not change your career decisions at all, or those of your girlfriend, maybe you shouldn't get married.  But don't be surprised if that's not the model of partnership your girlfriend is looking for. 

hdatontodo

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
  • Location: Balto Co, MD
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2019, 01:01:57 PM »
Having been divorced, I can say that having someone with their own career, equally valuable 401K, etc. helps. The division of assets is not just an exercise of dividing up the fruits of your own labor.

Hula Hoop

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
  • Location: Italy
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2019, 01:10:58 PM »
udacian - from what you just said, you need to break up with her now.  It's much kinder in the long term.

Linea_Norway

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4557
  • Location: Norway
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2019, 02:04:44 PM »

Quote
I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.

Don't marry this woman. She doesn't deserve it. To marry, you should be crazy about each other.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 01:07:27 AM by Linda_Norway »

kei te pai

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 233
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2019, 02:39:19 PM »
Think about this for a minute udacian. The reason that you are "not very good with women" may be because they understand that you see them as a commodity, to be traded for a better model should the opportunity arise. This is not an attractive feature.
Most women are attracted by warmth and good humour and trustworthiness.
These are the attributes you should work on.

historienne

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2019, 06:59:56 PM »
Think about this for a minute udacian. The reason that you are "not very good with women" may be because they understand that you see them as a commodity, to be traded for a better model should the opportunity arise. This is not an attractive feature.
Most women are attracted by warmth and good humour and trustworthiness.
These are the attributes you should work on.

Yes, this.  Look, I know my husband is not objectively the smartest/hottest/funniest/highest-earning/whatever guy in the world.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I could have found someone who scored higher on all of those things.  I spent my 20s in Silicon Valley; single women had a large pool of men to choose from.    But I'd rather have my husband than a generic smart/hot/funny/rich dude.  If you don't feel that way about your girlfriend, you probably shouldn't get married, and you definitely shouldn't be surprised if/when she trades *you* in for a better model.

Plugging Along

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 104
Re: Does FI encourage a spouse to get divorced?
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2019, 09:53:40 PM »
Quote from: frugaldrummer link=topic=102236.msg2289688#msg2289688 date=1549811362

[quote
I'm not sure from your postings though whether you're just not crazy about her OR if somehow you're afraid to admit to yourself that you ARE in love (and thus emotionally vulnerable).
It's the former. This sounds awful, but I know there is someone out there who is more attractive and interesting, even though my girlfriend is awesome. I'm not very good with women, and I know I can be more attractive if I work at it. And If I become more valuable in the dating market, I will have more options.
This is a classic example of the paradox of choice; If we lived in a small island and she was the only young woman, I would be totally happy with her. But because there is an abundance of women, I'm incapable of settling with good enough.

This is why you should break up.   You are holding out for someone better,and feel like you are settling.   This is fair to her, as you are taking away HER best years of her life to find someone who loves equally.    Eventually when one goes in with this thinking, they will end up on divorce.