Author Topic: Divorce help and discussion  (Read 24612 times)

jo552006

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #150 on: September 12, 2017, 12:48:38 AM »
I have been considering divorce for the last year, and very seriously for the last six months. To the outside, we are a remarkably high functioning, successful, and productive couple. We have a beautiful home, we're delightful and social, we run a successful Meetup group and Airbnb. What others don't see is are the painfully sore areas of misalignment that have plagued us for a while now - the incredibly cliche problems of sex and money disagreements. The problems have been going on for years and are not going to be solved. I fantasize about being freed of him and living a happier, more frugal life.

Since we are both independently successful and have no children, I'm of the opinion that we should separate. Cut our losses and move on to other lives and people who will be better for each of us and be happier in the long haul. No hard feelings - I just don't feel we're great for each other. He, on the other hand, doesn't feel he will ever be able to find someone as wonderful as me and is horrified at the thought of divorce (probably because he hates feeling rejected and is the child of divorce). When we've talked about it, he has explicitly said he will make the process difficult and made threats of suicide.

Yes, suicide.

I have no problems being impartial, emotionless and amicable in a separation, but that is wildly outside his ability. I've already mentally divvied up our stuff in what I feel is a very good split. I've started making lists of things I should do to "circle my wagons" before serving papers (download financial documents, take picture of assets, etc). I just don't really know how to start the divorce process so that I don't end up with $20k in lawyer's fees. Anyone have any suggestions?

I did not see anybody explicitly see anybody mention this so I'll throw this suggestion out there.  This applies to other posts I saw as well, but I suck at quoting, especially across multiple pages.  Make sure your marriage is truly doomed, and give it your best shot for success.  You didn't say, "DH thinks he's perfect and thinks everything is my fault."  You literally said cliche issues which implies they are fairly common.  Do you guys just have different viewpoints or values?  I'm sure there are serious problems, but I ask because his view may very well be true that he WON'T find somebody as awesome as you.  Maybe, the inverse is true, but there are changes needed.  Especially with his viewpoint, maybe he'd be willing to work on his marriage harder?

Seriously, there's tons of ways to deal with money issues, splitting finances, sitting down and talking, allowances, budgets, partially joint finances, etc.  Maybe you sit down and make an agreement on things, and sign it. (note this is an agreement, not a document to control another person)  If he's the type of person who's word is his bond, maybe that could help.  Sex issues, well REALLY depends on the issue, but even on those issues there are options.  What about open and non-monogamous marriage?  What can either/both parties do to change whatever the issue is, sometimes sex lives get boring, but that doesn't have to be the answer.  With all issues, communication is key.  Good communication.

I ask all this because I see an underwhelming trend in this thread for people to talk about trying to save a marriage.  In a lot of cases divorce is the best thing, but I saw no giant red flags in your post clearly pointing towards that being your only options.  I'm *hoping* that given your viewpoint that divorce is better you've already truly given it your best shot to make it work.

jo552006

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2017, 01:31:55 AM »
I separated my posts, as the first was more specific and less rant-y.  This is not in response to anything in particular, but ties well with Caracarn's view that in today's society divorce has become too acceptable.

Especially recently, I think each generation seems to have less personal accountability, and a worse work ethic than the previous one.  Caracarn seems to be coming at marriage from a biblical perspective, but even if you look at marriage as purely legal, it's too easy for people to give up.  I'm all for ending a bad marriage, and will not shy away from offering that option, but I feel like it's the easy way out in a lot of cases.

I don't think the lack of personal accountability is just in marriages but in everything.  We use the term accident so often to mean something that was unintended, but if an accident was preventable, was it really an accident?  If you're texting and slam into my car, I'm not going to be thankful that you didn't "mean" to hit me.

I bring up this topic because I think a lot of problems WITHIN a marriage come down do personal accountability (and also work ethic).  The ability to say "I fucked up" and own an action/mistake, seems to be almost devoid from our generation. The ease of which a marriage is dissolved, attests to that.  I am not proposing that marriages should be harder to end, but that when people want to get married, they should truly understand that they are making an oath to another person.  If people want a purely legal marriage, to be dissolved when it no longer suits them, why do people go through the ceremony, invite family and friends, etc?  I suspect that at least when most marriages start, they are not purely legal, but when they get hard, instead of working hard, suddenly they become purely legal.

TLDR, when in a marriage, work hard, act like an adult and own your actions, personal accountability is good for literally every part of your life, but is especially helpful in marriage where two people's lives are tied together.  When thinking about a divorce, make sure you tried to make your marriage work.  Marriages are hard; you took a lifelong oath to another person, not exchange promise rings.  Treat it as such.

Again... this is NOT directed at anybody in particular here in fact I'd like to believe people on this forum give greater thought to dissolving a marriage thank the average person.  Also for the record, I don't advocate stay in or working on an abusive relationship.

There's a lot of good advice, for people who are going through/thinking about divorce.  I don't feel like there's much to add except to pile on with anybody who says divorces are expensive.  Yet one more reason why trying to make  a marriage work can be a good thing.

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #152 on: September 12, 2017, 03:26:14 AM »
I have been considering divorce for the last year, and very seriously for the last six months. To the outside, we are a remarkably high functioning, successful, and productive couple. We have a beautiful home, we're delightful and social, we run a successful Meetup group and Airbnb. What others don't see is are the painfully sore areas of misalignment that have plagued us for a while now - the incredibly cliche problems of sex and money disagreements. The problems have been going on for years and are not going to be solved. I fantasize about being freed of him and living a happier, more frugal life.

Since we are both independently successful and have no children, I'm of the opinion that we should separate. Cut our losses and move on to other lives and people who will be better for each of us and be happier in the long haul. No hard feelings - I just don't feel we're great for each other. He, on the other hand, doesn't feel he will ever be able to find someone as wonderful as me and is horrified at the thought of divorce (probably because he hates feeling rejected and is the child of divorce). When we've talked about it, he has explicitly said he will make the process difficult and made threats of suicide.

Yes, suicide.

I have no problems being impartial, emotionless and amicable in a separation, but that is wildly outside his ability. I've already mentally divvied up our stuff in what I feel is a very good split. I've started making lists of things I should do to "circle my wagons" before serving papers (download financial documents, take picture of assets, etc). I just don't really know how to start the divorce process so that I don't end up with $20k in lawyer's fees. Anyone have any suggestions?

I did not see anybody explicitly see anybody mention this so I'll throw this suggestion out there.  This applies to other posts I saw as well, but I suck at quoting, especially across multiple pages.  Make sure your marriage is truly doomed, and give it your best shot for success.  You didn't say, "DH thinks he's perfect and thinks everything is my fault."  You literally said cliche issues which implies they are fairly common.  Do you guys just have different viewpoints or values?  I'm sure there are serious problems, but I ask because his view may very well be true that he WON'T find somebody as awesome as you.  Maybe, the inverse is true, but there are changes needed.  Especially with his viewpoint, maybe he'd be willing to work on his marriage harder?

Seriously, there's tons of ways to deal with money issues, splitting finances, sitting down and talking, allowances, budgets, partially joint finances, etc.  Maybe you sit down and make an agreement on things, and sign it. (note this is an agreement, not a document to control another person)  If he's the type of person who's word is his bond, maybe that could help.  Sex issues, well REALLY depends on the issue, but even on those issues there are options.  What about open and non-monogamous marriage?  What can either/both parties do to change whatever the issue is, sometimes sex lives get boring, but that doesn't have to be the answer.  With all issues, communication is key.  Good communication.

I ask all this because I see an underwhelming trend in this thread for people to talk about trying to save a marriage.  In a lot of cases divorce is the best thing, but I saw no giant red flags in your post clearly pointing towards that being your only options.  I'm *hoping* that given your viewpoint that divorce is better you've already truly given it your best shot to make it work.
Ladyinred is clearly unhappy on the money front, but the giant red flag to me is the unresolveable differences on sex - being pressured into or out of sex, or into or out of a particular kind of sex, for the rest of your life, is not something I would press on anyone.  Particularly with an emotionally abusive partner who threatens suicide to keep the other partner in line.

If it's not possible for ladyinred to negotiate a sexually open marriage with separate finances, I would suggest that she lines up her successor if she can but sets a date and goes anyway if she can't.  What her husband does about that is on him, not her.

kayvent

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #153 on: September 12, 2017, 03:50:39 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Although it will sound inflammatory, I have an honest and sincere question: Do you think you are smart or do you know you're being an idiot?

Deuteronomy and Leviticus, at least in a verbal form, have been around for three and a half millenniums. Heck, even if you think they are anachronistic, they are two and a half millenniums old. Now, in all that time, do you think you (modern man) are one of the first sets of people to ever talk about those verses?

If you think so, you are grossly wrong. If you realize that you aren't a savant or that talking about the Bible isn't a modern concept, perhaps you need to realize that your comment is juvenile at best. When I hear comments like yours, they remind me when I hear a creationist say "Evolution can't be right because monkeys are still around." Both of y'all ignore that the community you are dissing has hundreds or thousands of years of explanatory history and discourse on a topic and your root criticism grazes something it dealt with in its infancy.

As caracarn offered, if you want to discuss this topic I am more then willing to in PM.

 pot. kettle. The plural of millennium is millennia.

This made me laugh. So you are calling Snacky an idiot? Also, the plural of millennium is both millennia and millenniums. Crack open a dictionary. I don't mind being corrected on things. I do find it hilarious to be corrected when I am not wrong.

PoutineLover

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #154 on: September 12, 2017, 06:37:27 AM »
I have been considering divorce for the last year, and very seriously for the last six months. To the outside, we are a remarkably high functioning, successful, and productive couple. We have a beautiful home, we're delightful and social, we run a successful Meetup group and Airbnb. What others don't see is are the painfully sore areas of misalignment that have plagued us for a while now - the incredibly cliche problems of sex and money disagreements. The problems have been going on for years and are not going to be solved. I fantasize about being freed of him and living a happier, more frugal life.

Since we are both independently successful and have no children, I'm of the opinion that we should separate. Cut our losses and move on to other lives and people who will be better for each of us and be happier in the long haul. No hard feelings - I just don't feel we're great for each other. He, on the other hand, doesn't feel he will ever be able to find someone as wonderful as me and is horrified at the thought of divorce (probably because he hates feeling rejected and is the child of divorce). When we've talked about it, he has explicitly said he will make the process difficult and made threats of suicide.

Yes, suicide.

I have no problems being impartial, emotionless and amicable in a separation, but that is wildly outside his ability. I've already mentally divvied up our stuff in what I feel is a very good split. I've started making lists of things I should do to "circle my wagons" before serving papers (download financial documents, take picture of assets, etc). I just don't really know how to start the divorce process so that I don't end up with $20k in lawyer's fees. Anyone have any suggestions?

I did not see anybody explicitly see anybody mention this so I'll throw this suggestion out there.  This applies to other posts I saw as well, but I suck at quoting, especially across multiple pages.  Make sure your marriage is truly doomed, and give it your best shot for success.  You didn't say, "DH thinks he's perfect and thinks everything is my fault."  You literally said cliche issues which implies they are fairly common.  Do you guys just have different viewpoints or values?  I'm sure there are serious problems, but I ask because his view may very well be true that he WON'T find somebody as awesome as you.  Maybe, the inverse is true, but there are changes needed.  Especially with his viewpoint, maybe he'd be willing to work on his marriage harder?

Seriously, there's tons of ways to deal with money issues, splitting finances, sitting down and talking, allowances, budgets, partially joint finances, etc.  Maybe you sit down and make an agreement on things, and sign it. (note this is an agreement, not a document to control another person)  If he's the type of person who's word is his bond, maybe that could help.  Sex issues, well REALLY depends on the issue, but even on those issues there are options.  What about open and non-monogamous marriage?  What can either/both parties do to change whatever the issue is, sometimes sex lives get boring, but that doesn't have to be the answer.  With all issues, communication is key.  Good communication.

I ask all this because I see an underwhelming trend in this thread for people to talk about trying to save a marriage.  In a lot of cases divorce is the best thing, but I saw no giant red flags in your post clearly pointing towards that being your only options.  I'm *hoping* that given your viewpoint that divorce is better you've already truly given it your best shot to make it work.
Ladyinred is clearly unhappy on the money front, but the giant red flag to me is the unresolveable differences on sex - being pressured into or out of sex, or into or out of a particular kind of sex, for the rest of your life, is not something I would press on anyone.  Particularly with an emotionally abusive partner who threatens suicide to keep the other partner in line.

If it's not possible for ladyinred to negotiate a sexually open marriage with separate finances, I would suggest that she lines up her successor if she can but sets a date and goes anyway if she can't.  What her husband does about that is on him, not her.
The major red fleg of threatening suicide over divorce is an indication of the unhealthiness and emotionally abusive nature of that relationship. Ok, people fight about money, sex, whatever. But coercing someone to stay by saying you'll kill yourself if they don't? Thats some twisted manipulation. I bet there are a lot of other little actions and gaslighting going on. Just because outwardly two people can look fine and convince themselves that they are fine does not mean everything is fine. Divorce sounds like a good option in that kind of marriage. Ladyinred, you are not responsible if he does go through with that, and i bet its an empty threat anyway. You deserve to be in a relationship that satisfies you with a partner who respects you, and from your post, it doesn't sound like you're in one.

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #155 on: September 12, 2017, 06:53:21 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Although it will sound inflammatory, I have an honest and sincere question: Do you think you are smart or do you know you're being an idiot?

Deuteronomy and Leviticus, at least in a verbal form, have been around for three and a half millenniums. Heck, even if you think they are anachronistic, they are two and a half millenniums old. Now, in all that time, do you think you (modern man) are one of the first sets of people to ever talk about those verses?

If you think so, you are grossly wrong. If you realize that you aren't a savant or that talking about the Bible isn't a modern concept, perhaps you need to realize that your comment is juvenile at best. When I hear comments like yours, they remind me when I hear a creationist say "Evolution can't be right because monkeys are still around." Both of y'all ignore that the community you are dissing has hundreds or thousands of years of explanatory history and discourse on a topic and your root criticism grazes something it dealt with in its infancy.

As caracarn offered, if you want to discuss this topic I am more then willing to in PM.

 pot. kettle. The plural of millennium is millennia.

This made me laugh. So you are calling Snacky an idiot? Also, the plural of millennium is both millennia and millenniums. Crack open a dictionary. I don't mind being corrected on things. I do find it hilarious to be corrected when I am not wrong.
Thing is: words matter, and words have meanings.  The fact that a particular group has over time rationalised a particular set of words into a meaning which is different and specialised to that group doesn't give them sole rights to the meaning of those words.  And if those words are in the Bible (you used that word so I'm guessing Christian rather than Jewish), then they are the words of a proselytising religion which gives everyone the right to have an opinion on their meaning because their meaning is not contained to the particular group and its particular interpretation.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #156 on: September 12, 2017, 07:49:20 AM »
+1 that ladyinred is in an emotionally abusive relationship.

I get that in the long term, divorce is not shown to make people happier. But that's a post hoc fallacy. Maybe the people who got divorced had different problems than the ones who stayed married (of course they did! That's why they got divorced!) so it hasn't been shown to NOT make people happier, either.

Suggesting that someone in an emotionally abusive relationship try harder is wildly inappropriate.

Maybe Mr. LIR is genuinely mentally ill and genuinely suicidal. You know what? STILL not her problem and STILL abusive. She is under no obligation to be his punching bag while he gets his head straight.

jo552006

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Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #157 on: September 12, 2017, 08:21:36 AM »
Suggesting that someone in an emotionally abusive relationship try harder is wildly inappropriate.

Yes it is, so let me be very clear.

Ladyinred, if you are in an abusive relationship, whether emotionally or physcially, please get out.  Also, if that is the case, you have my sincerest apologies for not realizing it in my response.

With only the post I quoted to look at I did not jump to abusive.  I did read this thread, but if Ladyinred made other posts, or posts on different threads I did not connect them to the post I quoted.  I realize the suicide point and promising to make it messy could point towards abusive and controlling, but I did not simply assume that.  I also noted the use of the word freed, but again, am not adept at reading between the lines as much as others may be.

If you (or anybody) is in an abusive relationship, please seek to get out ASAP.  This likely means doing whatever you need to in order to be prepared with an exit strategy depending on the level of control the other person has.  Who pays the phone bill?  Will you have a cell phone after you leave?  What money will you leave with, etc.  Where will you go, etc.  In your case if it's just division of assets, then I'm assuming mediation is a good way to go, but if my understanding is correct your spouse can basically make you pay the divorce penalty simply by not working with you.