Author Topic: Divorce help and discussion  (Read 14609 times)

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2017, 09:27:08 AM »
For those of you that want your wives to explain why they left you... I think you could possibly have success with this tactic.

Write an email.  Something like this.  Dear Ex, if you choose to respond to this email, I promise I will not write back.  I will not make excuses or justify my actions.  I will not argue.  Since our marriage ended, I've been reflecting and working on myself. I realize you probably tried to tell me one hundred times what was wrong with our marriage but I wasn't listening or I wasn't understanding what you were saying.  Now that it is over with no chance of revival, I realize I need to listen and understand in order to be successful in the future.  I promise, whatever your reasons are, I will not write back to tell you I didn't do those things.  I won't write back to tell you I have changed.  I won't write back at all.  This is a safe opportunity to tell me again those things you tried to tell me many times before but this time, I promise, I am listening.

If you get a response, be thankful and keep your promise.  DO NOT ENGAGE any further.

ETA: keep in mind, your ex might have you blocked and never even see this.
I thought about sending an email like this, but she told me to stop contacting her about a month ago.  I tried calling 2 or 3 times the week after she moved out and then left one voicemail about 3 weeks after she left.  I wanted a chance to apologize for the things I thought I had done wrong and to see if she'd at least give me the reasons why she left.  She sent me an email saying that she got my voicemail, our marriage was over, and to stop trying to contact her.  So now all of our communications must happen via our lawyers, and I'm left to wonder about her real reasons for leaving.

To answer the other poster's question about how often we had "big" arguments, I'd say these happened on average maybe 3 times a year.  Looking back on things, a lot of them were caused by my own insecurities and lack of self-esteem.  I wasn't mad at her.  I was mad at myself.  When I lost my temper during an argument, it was usually because I was pissed off at myself for one thing or another and not because I had any serious issues with her.
Oftentimes the best you can do is try to identify those areas you know you did poorly in and take that as the lessons learned.  Even if they answer your e-mail or phone call, do you ever really know if that was it?  Again, my ex said she wanted to be single, should have never had kids and wanted to prove to herself she could support herself.  Then she turned around and was pregnant months later and living with the guy.  She claims that it was an accident because his doctor has told him he was sterile and my kids say she is every bit as awful to that child as she had been to them, vacillating between doting mom and raving loon who complains about the demands her kids but on her, like asking for food or some reason.  So was she honest with me about why she wanted a divorce?  Probably not, or maybe not everything.  I know what we fought about and it was usually none of those things, so I'd have to assume the things where we disagreed were also reasons. 

It seems like you are trying to identify areas to focus on so if you decide to enter another relationship and get married in the future you will do so differently then you did with your ex.

Schaefer Light

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 792
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2017, 10:17:35 AM »
Oftentimes the best you can do is try to identify those areas you know you did poorly in and take that as the lessons learned.  Even if they answer your e-mail or phone call, do you ever really know if that was it?

That's a good point.  She had a hard time telling me exactly what I had done to break her trust, and when she did manage to come up with a reason it never seemed like nearly as big a deal as she was making it out to be.  I think it's possible that the reason she had a hard time telling me is that she herself didn't really know what was causing the lack of trust.  I don't want to blame this on her (because I certainly have my faults, and that's what I need to focus on), but I can't help but think the abuse she suffered as a child played a big role in this.

Quote
It seems like you are trying to identify areas to focus on so if you decide to enter another relationship and get married in the future you will do so differently then you did with your ex.

I am trying to identify the behaviors, thoughts, and attitudes of mine that need improvement.  While I may never know exactly which of them contributed to my separation, I want to come out of this a better and stronger person.  My focus isn't so much on getting ready for the next relationship as it is on making positive changes to myself.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #102 on: July 17, 2017, 12:41:38 PM »
Oftentimes the best you can do is try to identify those areas you know you did poorly in and take that as the lessons learned.  Even if they answer your e-mail or phone call, do you ever really know if that was it?

That's a good point.  She had a hard time telling me exactly what I had done to break her trust, and when she did manage to come up with a reason it never seemed like nearly as big a deal as she was making it out to be.  I think it's possible that the reason she had a hard time telling me is that she herself didn't really know what was causing the lack of trust.  I don't want to blame this on her (because I certainly have my faults, and that's what I need to focus on), but I can't help but think the abuse she suffered as a child played a big role in this.

Quote
It seems like you are trying to identify areas to focus on so if you decide to enter another relationship and get married in the future you will do so differently then you did with your ex.

I am trying to identify the behaviors, thoughts, and attitudes of mine that need improvement.  While I may never know exactly which of them contributed to my separation, I want to come out of this a better and stronger person.  My focus isn't so much on getting ready for the next relationship as it is on making positive changes to myself.

This may sound goofy but the next time you get in a serious relationship, go to couples counseling with that person. It will be a way to get an independent objective of your relationship or way you interact with a partner, and at the very least may teach each of you better ways to communicate. 

Psychstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 594
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2017, 01:34:48 PM »



I've never really looked for battles.  It's just that when a battle starts, I'm determined to win it.  Especially when I feel like I have the stronger argument.  I enjoy competition, and to me an argument is just a form of competition.  I realize in hindsight that I should have swallowed my pride on certain occasions.  While I don't think this was the only factor that led to our current separation (we can't get divorced until next June at the earliest), it is one thing I'm working on with my therapist.

Glad to hear you are looking to use this crappy situation to work in yourself.

I came back to this post to offer an strategy that worked for me in this situation.

I shifted my thinking to focus on 'the war' (having a good, successful relationship) as my primary objective and keep that in mind during 'the battles' (individual arguments). Keep your focus on winning the war and let that be a guide to how to move forward during the battle, which might mean losing some along the way.

I liken it to the scene/events of the imitation game where the team cracks the enigma box and learns of an impending attack, but they let it happen so that they can keep tabs on German activity in hopes of bringing an end to the whole conflict.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


K-ice

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Location: Canada
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2017, 04:24:04 PM »
I was probably the OP for the original divorce thread that THIS OP was thinking of! All the advice was well-intentioned but it became overwhelming. And I wanted to reduce my online footprint.

I'm happy to hear from you!

I think it is a good sign you are still FB friends.

Schaefer Light

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 792
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2017, 07:25:55 AM »
This may sound goofy but the next time you get in a serious relationship, go to couples counseling with that person. It will be a way to get an independent objective of your relationship or way you interact with a partner, and at the very least may teach each of you better ways to communicate.

I definitely plan to go to some form of couples counseling if I ever have another serious relationship that could turn into a marriage.  In hindsight, I really wish my wife and I had done this.  Not sure if it would have prevented us from being where we are today, but it couldn't have hurt.

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2017, 07:38:09 AM »
This may sound goofy but the next time you get in a serious relationship, go to couples counseling with that person. It will be a way to get an independent objective of your relationship or way you interact with a partner, and at the very least may teach each of you better ways to communicate.

I definitely plan to go to some form of couples counseling if I ever have another serious relationship that could turn into a marriage.  In hindsight, I really wish my wife and I had done this.  Not sure if it would have prevented us from being where we are today, but it couldn't have hurt.
A little input on this.  My wife and I did go before we got divorced.  The challenge is that counseling is only useful if people want to get help.  In hindsight, my ex used it to bash me and I did not see her really try to change things.  Counselor gave us homework and she was always not interested in doing it or she would go through the motions but you could see her heart was not in it.  We went to 20 sessions or so and really, other than exposing the fact that I did not need to be so hard on disciplining the kids, which was the thing I changed immediately and never looked back, it was not helpful mainly because I am pretty sure my ex just went because I suggested we should go and I did all the work in finding a well rated counselor in the area.  We went in between the time we had told the kids we would divorce, she had changed her mind and the year that intervened before we did divorce.  Was about three months that we went. 

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2017, 08:17:16 AM »
Yes, counseling is not some kind of miracle cure. For example for my ex, I really felt we needed to go to couples counseling, because, yes I wasn't happy with the relationship. He didn't want to do it but didn't want to admit that. I set up one appointment with someone who was recommended. The session was hard; I was pretty emotional (I cried at one point) while my ex sat there with his arms crossed, pretty closed off. We left, and I thought it was a good start, but my husband said I was "too emotional" and that the therapist didn't like him. He first promised that he would make the next appointment (I kept trying to schedule and he kept saying he wasn't available). Then I said he needed to call to make next appointment. Needless to say he never did, instead said we could work on these things on our own, like going on dates again. Yes, this didn't happen either. In retrospect this all occurred while he was actively having an affair, so he didn't do it in good faith. I think that's something that people may not understand. It's not just the infidelity. It's the repeated lying, gaslighting, and breaking of promises that really causes the damage to the relationship. The lack of respect.

In the situation where two people are entering into a relationship in good faith, couples counseling may be helpful.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 08:23:22 AM by partgypsy »

Schaefer Light

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 792
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2017, 08:52:01 AM »
This may sound goofy but the next time you get in a serious relationship, go to couples counseling with that person. It will be a way to get an independent objective of your relationship or way you interact with a partner, and at the very least may teach each of you better ways to communicate.

I definitely plan to go to some form of couples counseling if I ever have another serious relationship that could turn into a marriage.  In hindsight, I really wish my wife and I had done this.  Not sure if it would have prevented us from being where we are today, but it couldn't have hurt.
A little input on this.  My wife and I did go before we got divorced.  The challenge is that counseling is only useful if people want to get help.  In hindsight, my ex used it to bash me and I did not see her really try to change things.  Counselor gave us homework and she was always not interested in doing it or she would go through the motions but you could see her heart was not in it.  We went to 20 sessions or so and really, other than exposing the fact that I did not need to be so hard on disciplining the kids, which was the thing I changed immediately and never looked back, it was not helpful mainly because I am pretty sure my ex just went because I suggested we should go and I did all the work in finding a well rated counselor in the area.  We went in between the time we had told the kids we would divorce, she had changed her mind and the year that intervened before we did divorce.  Was about three months that we went.

Yeah, both parties have to be committed to doing the work.  If only one person is committed, it's not going to save the marriage.  I actually meant that I wish my wife and I had gone to pre-marital counseling back near the beginning of our relationship.

K-ice

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Location: Canada
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2017, 03:32:20 PM »
So with Divorce, kids and blended families what do you prefer with your schedules?

For example, second marriage, both have "their" kids every other weekend.  Is it better to have all the kids together and then a weekend "off" or is it better to spend quality time with just your kids?


caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2017, 07:37:23 AM »
So with Divorce, kids and blended families what do you prefer with your schedules?

For example, second marriage, both have "their" kids every other weekend.  Is it better to have all the kids together and then a weekend "off" or is it better to spend quality time with just your kids?
Like anything in the fraught world of divorce the answer is.... it depends.  Mainly on what you find works.

So I will share out situation.  We've got my wife's ex who has been very aggressive in demanding every second of time he is entitled to.  Even though her kids would prefer to just head over to our house on the bus on transfer days, he insists they come by him (he picks them all up from their various schools each day he has them) for a couple hours and we get them at 6 PM.  My ex would prefer not to have the kids and does not care when she has them, so any movement to our schedules when we married was done there, as it was psychologically simpler. 

So yes, the first thing we did was align the weekends, which were the only commonality between the visitation schedules.  Her kids are 50/50.  So every two weeks The spend M-W at their dad, Th-Sun with us, M-W at their dad, Th-F with us, Sat - Sun (they then continue into the M-W of the next two week cycle) at dad.  All exchanges are 6 PM on either Wednesday or Friday nights.  My kids are mainly with us, due to lack of interest from their mom.  So the same two week cycle they are M at mom, Tuesday - following Thursday (so 10 days) with us, Friday - Sunday (and then continue into M of the next two week cycle) at mom.  They used to be Thur - Sun at mom but we shifted to Friday - Monday at this point because it works better with the kids activities (Thursday night is super busy and mom did not want to have to be involved in getting them places because it uses gas and time and she just leased a car and driving to the high school to get them 26 times a year will put her over her allowed mileage).  My kids take the "kid car" with them when they go to mom's so they can get to work and school and save us having to drive over to mom's and also because we do not trust my wife's ex to not do damage to our car or sabotage in some way.  So we do have every other weekend kidless (summer this can change depending on what is set for vacation times), which I do share tongue in cheek with people as the only real "benefit" of being divorced.  It is nice to be able to have couples time, which many families struggle to get, so it is definitely a blessing and helps keep our marriage strong.   With the holidays my wife's agreement gives her Memorial Day every year and him Labor Day (they were "big" holidays for them).  She also has Thanksgiving every year and he has the week when 4th of July occurs every year as a fixed vacation week each summer.  Other than that it's what would be typical, splitting Christmas.  With the summer they each get 3 vacation weeks (he also gets that 4th of July week as a 4th week for him).  They cannot take more than 2 of the weeks together, but he plays games with his in that he'll take a week and have it end on Sunday and then M-W is his "normal" time and then he'll start his next vacation week Thursday - Wednesday thereby getting 2 1/2 weeks.  She used to argue with him about it but it just became worthless.  On my end, my ex only in the last year or so (we've been divorced nearly seven at this point) has started to even care about any holiday other than Christmas.  She took them for Thanksgiving this last year for the first time ever.  Most other holidays she chooses to be out of town.  In the summer, I basically try to create an alternating week schedule based on what my wife ends up having.  Two summers ago we intentionally set it up to have alone time with each group of kids, but neither us nor the kids really liked it (I think there were only a couple weeks when there was some partial overlap), so this year we had more of a together schedule, in part because their mom was finally getting married to the guy she had been living with and we knew the kids would have some struggles with that transition so we felt a bit more family time on this end that was not changing any dynamics they have gotten used to might help.  The kids tend to like being here for various reasons including access to a vehicle for those that drive which they do not have at either of the other homes, reliable internet service, which is crucial during school times, and less drama. 

When the kids were younger we did have some time individually with each set, but now that they are all teenagers most of their time "at home" is spent on devices in their rooms with friends or out with friends, at school activities or at work.  Not sure that I'd say it's much different from what I did as a teenager which was see my parents at dinner most days and when they forced me to be home beyond that.  I have a good relationship with my parents but as a teenager it was the typical "I want my life and you're not part of it" that most go through.    Our kids also blended well after an initial rocky first year or so, so they do like being with each other.  They also feel less like anything is being missed (again less of an issue now than when they were younger).  It also made it easier to blend when we did things as a family versus continuing to foster two groups of people which we felt the separation would do.  From a finance standpoint it also made things like trips to the amusement park simpler because it was not we take her kids this weekend and my kids on a weekend two months later or something. 

At this point, we have come to take the kidless time as normal and when we go long stretches, as happened a few times this summer where we have at least a couple of them with us for weeks on end, we found ourselves getting a little grumbly or looking forward to those four days two weeks from now when they would all be gone.  I have mentioned that I do also feel it will make the empty nest transition easier because we already have figured out how to live life without a house full of kids all the time because we get to do it on a much more regular basis than an intact family  does where their only options are ship the kids off to grandparents for a week in the summer or hire babysitters a lot to get out.  So it lowered our childcare bills because we always knew we could schedule date night when they were gone already versus paying a sitter etc. 

Hope that helps.

Cpa Cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #111 on: August 31, 2017, 09:27:20 AM »
My parents got divorced when I was 8 and my brother was 10.

My dad got remarried and had another baby within two years. We did not have our own rooms. At the time our step siblings lived with my dad, so we shared their rooms, which did little to ingratiate us to them. When my baby brother was born, they became a true family unit that we were never part of.

My mom did not remarry and we didn't really know that she was dating. But she did have a couple of relationships quietly - I recall meeting one boyfriend. We were a secure, three-person family and it helped to deal with the fact that our dad had another family.

My step-sister had it way worse. She didn't get along well with my dad, so she decided to move in with her dad. Her dad also remarried and had kids with his new wife. She told me later that she felt that she wasn't part of either family. She felt like an unwanted guest no matter what house she was at.

When my dad died, she and I went through family photos for the funeral, and it made it me sad to see all of the family vacations that they went on that I never even knew about (my dad, stepmom, stepbrother, half-brother were the family unit). They went to a lot of cool places and it would have been nice to be invited. It really struck home that they didn't really view us as part of their family. My brother and I even less so than my step-sister, who was invited occasionally. She told me that she wished she had tried harder with my dad, because if she'd made a different decision as a child, she would have been a full member of that family, too (a lot to expect from a 10 year old).

Whoever said upthread that your relationship with your ex is not your kids' relationship with your ex is absolutely spot on. My mom spent a lot of time complaining about our dad to me. As a kid, I kind of just absorbed it to keep the peace. But as an adult, it became difficult to deal with and caused a lot of friction between she and I. She admitted to me that she felt betrayed that I didn't "take her side", and couldn't comprehend how I didn't remember all of the bad things he did to cause the divorce. It took an argument after his death (20 years after their divorce) for her to finally realize that she and I lived different experiences with him.

One thing they did wrong: My brother acted out a lot, especially when my dad started living with my step-mom. A therapist suggested that my dad spend one-on-one time with him (like... father-son dates). It helped my brother a lot. BUT - no one thought that maybe it would be a good idea to do the same with me. I was quieter and more cooperative, so they figured I was doing fine. So they basically just created another way for me to feel left out of my father's life. It sucked, but my personality type caused me to internalize it and avoid rocking the boat. Later my mom said that it never even occurred to them that I was having trouble because I seemed to be doing so well - I was ultra pragmatic about the divorce and never seemed at all bothered by anything. It was a smack-yourself-in-the-head moment for her to realize that I was trying to be helpful!

I don't have all the right answers. My parents are/were human and I'm sure they did their best. The above are just some examples of how the kids accidentally fell by the wayside while my parents were trying to get through a difficult time.

PoutineLover

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #112 on: August 31, 2017, 10:12:53 AM »
Here's my point of view on marriage and divorce, just to add to the different experiences mentioned. My parents got divorced after my sister and I moved out, and in my opinion it was the right decision for them. My mom was the one who left, due to actions by my dad, which he says he now wishes he could change but didn't realize at the time. Now they have an amicable relationship, but they used to fight all the time when they were married. They were married too young, and weren't compatible for each other in many important ways, but were in a rush to get engaged and married for a few reasons, including overly religious parents and cultural expectations. It's not good for kids to have parents who don't get along, and only the stigma of divorce kept them together. I still love both of them and don't really blame either of them for what happened, I just wish they had separated sooner.
If I ever get married, I will do so with the intention of being married for life, but only after talking about and working through all the issues we possibly can beforehand, to make sure that we really are compatible and do share similar values. No "love is enough" bullshit or "we'll worry about it when it happens". Obviously shit could still happen, people and circumstances change, and you can't predict life. But with a solid foundation and eyes wide open, marriage has a much better chance of working out. Divorce has to be an acceptable option at all times, when we stigmatize it people stay in unhealthy relationships and it damages them and their families.

patchyfacialhair

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 455
    • Journal
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #113 on: August 31, 2017, 12:17:43 PM »
posting to follow

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2017, 01:04:02 PM »
Here's my point of view on marriage and divorce, just to add to the different experiences mentioned. My parents got divorced after my sister and I moved out, and in my opinion it was the right decision for them. My mom was the one who left, due to actions by my dad, which he says he now wishes he could change but didn't realize at the time. Now they have an amicable relationship, but they used to fight all the time when they were married. They were married too young, and weren't compatible for each other in many important ways, but were in a rush to get engaged and married for a few reasons, including overly religious parents and cultural expectations. It's not good for kids to have parents who don't get along, and only the stigma of divorce kept them together. I still love both of them and don't really blame either of them for what happened, I just wish they had separated sooner.
If I ever get married, I will do so with the intention of being married for life, but only after talking about and working through all the issues we possibly can beforehand, to make sure that we really are compatible and do share similar values. No "love is enough" bullshit or "we'll worry about it when it happens". Obviously shit could still happen, people and circumstances change, and you can't predict life. But with a solid foundation and eyes wide open, marriage has a much better chance of working out. Divorce has to be an acceptable option at all times, when we stigmatize it people stay in unhealthy relationships and it damages them and their families.

I struggle with this even as I help in divorce support groups.  I do agree that when abuse (of any kind) is involved it needs to be viewed as an option, however I do struggle with the fact that by having in essence zero stigma now the trigger gets pulled way too often for things that really are not unhealthy, they are immature, lazy or not willing to compromise/stubborn.  There is easily as much damage done to families by people who got divorced because of (my favorite) "irreconcilable differences".  As one speaker on the topic of divorce says, everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else.  You are very different from your mate. You're supposed to be.  We need to take those differences and find ways for them to be complements rather than conflicts. 

That is where I have a hard time with no-fault divorce, because I think it makes it too easy.  There should be some difficulty, pain or something.  Another version of the same thing is "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love".  I get it can happen, but that usually involves not doing what you said that you will do next time.  I think that is a good recipe for what we did in our marriage, as I said above, where out dating was more like an interrogation process than dating.  These touchy feely divorce reasons occur because not enough work was put into the getting to know you phase.  No one's perfect, but you can improve the odds a lot more if you do the work.

PoutineLover

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2017, 01:17:21 PM »
Here's my point of view on marriage and divorce, just to add to the different experiences mentioned. My parents got divorced after my sister and I moved out, and in my opinion it was the right decision for them. My mom was the one who left, due to actions by my dad, which he says he now wishes he could change but didn't realize at the time. Now they have an amicable relationship, but they used to fight all the time when they were married. They were married too young, and weren't compatible for each other in many important ways, but were in a rush to get engaged and married for a few reasons, including overly religious parents and cultural expectations. It's not good for kids to have parents who don't get along, and only the stigma of divorce kept them together. I still love both of them and don't really blame either of them for what happened, I just wish they had separated sooner.
If I ever get married, I will do so with the intention of being married for life, but only after talking about and working through all the issues we possibly can beforehand, to make sure that we really are compatible and do share similar values. No "love is enough" bullshit or "we'll worry about it when it happens". Obviously shit could still happen, people and circumstances change, and you can't predict life. But with a solid foundation and eyes wide open, marriage has a much better chance of working out. Divorce has to be an acceptable option at all times, when we stigmatize it people stay in unhealthy relationships and it damages them and their families.

I struggle with this even as I help in divorce support groups.  I do agree that when abuse (of any kind) is involved it needs to be viewed as an option, however I do struggle with the fact that by having in essence zero stigma now the trigger gets pulled way too often for things that really are not unhealthy, they are immature, lazy or not willing to compromise/stubborn.  There is easily as much damage done to families by people who got divorced because of (my favorite) "irreconcilable differences".  As one speaker on the topic of divorce says, everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else.  You are very different from your mate. You're supposed to be.  We need to take those differences and find ways for them to be complements rather than conflicts. 

That is where I have a hard time with no-fault divorce, because I think it makes it too easy.  There should be some difficulty, pain or something.  Another version of the same thing is "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love".  I get it can happen, but that usually involves not doing what you said that you will do next time.  I think that is a good recipe for what we did in our marriage, as I said above, where out dating was more like an interrogation process than dating.  These touchy feely divorce reasons occur because not enough work was put into the getting to know you phase.  No one's perfect, but you can improve the odds a lot more if you do the work.
I don't think I agree with you on that. In my mother's culture, the woman is always blamed for a divorce, no matter what the real cause was. Her mother stayed in a physically abusive relationship until her husband died, because divorce was just not an option for her. I don't know if I would go as far as to say my mother was emotionally abused, but I wouldn't have put up with treatment like that, and my dad was unwilling to change/compromise/whatever. Yeah she wasn't being beaten, but she wasn't happy with him either.
I used to live with my partner, we were together for 6 years and common law half that time. We got along, but I wasn't really happy and I couldn't pinpoint why. After we broke up, I had no regrets and I wished I had done it sooner, but it was hard to make that decision because staying together was easy when we were both just going through the motions. Maybe that was "falling out of love". Not all relationships are meant to be, and sometimes it takes time to figure that out. You're not a failure for ending a marriage that isn't working, you don't have to be ashamed, and people shouldn't blame you, for leaving a relationship that does not satisfy your needs. What looks like trivial problems from the outside might actually be significant to those going through them, and the only marriage you can honestly judge is your own, and even then it's complicated. It's never easy to make that decision, and it's usually good to try and work on problems before giving up, but there's no need for any stigma.

Raenia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2017, 01:39:53 PM »
I struggle with this even as I help in divorce support groups.  I do agree that when abuse (of any kind) is involved it needs to be viewed as an option, however I do struggle with the fact that by having in essence zero stigma now the trigger gets pulled way too often for things that really are not unhealthy, they are immature, lazy or not willing to compromise/stubborn.  There is easily as much damage done to families by people who got divorced because of (my favorite) "irreconcilable differences".  As one speaker on the topic of divorce says, everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else.  You are very different from your mate. You're supposed to be.  We need to take those differences and find ways for them to be complements rather than conflicts. 

That is where I have a hard time with no-fault divorce, because I think it makes it too easy.  There should be some difficulty, pain or something.  Another version of the same thing is "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love".  I get it can happen, but that usually involves not doing what you said that you will do next time.  I think that is a good recipe for what we did in our marriage, as I said above, where out dating was more like an interrogation process than dating.  These touchy feely divorce reasons occur because not enough work was put into the getting to know you phase.  No one's perfect, but you can improve the odds a lot more if you do the work.

People do change, though, sometimes more than you'd think.  For example, my parents got together, got married, had 2 kids, and led a very happy, very successful marriage for the next 25 years.  Then we both went to college, and they realized that without kids to keep them aligned, their goals in life had changed.  They didn't want the same things anymore, and they were no longer happy with what the other had to offer.  That genuinely wasn't the case when they got married, but no amount of interrogation in the dating phase can read the future.

The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."

frugalparagon

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2893
    • The Frugal Paragon
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2017, 01:57:35 PM »
I think caracarn is talking more about cases like me and the XFP. He had a restless personality and just sort of got tired of me. Objectively, I was a good wife, but he wanted a different kind of wife, and now he has one.

I think it's worth noting that he had spent the winter previous thinking about moving to Arizona, and asked for a divorce shortly after deciding not to. I wonder if that's pretty common--people think something is wrong with their life, and look for an external source, and happen to settle on getting divorced as a solution.

It's very easy to get divorced here in CO. While the settlement is still being carried out, the time from first discussion to finalization was about 4 months. In other states, you need to live apart for a year (with proof that you have lived apart) if you have children.

I wasn't going to ask for a divorce. I was managing. But now that it has come, I am really, really glad that "managing" is NOT the best thing I have to show my kids.
I blog about Mustachianism during the child-raising years at frugalparagon.com.

And I tell the real story in my journal, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/still-living-well-in-the-living-room-but-what's-my-next-move/

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #118 on: August 31, 2017, 02:56:53 PM »
Here's my point of view on marriage and divorce, just to add to the different experiences mentioned. My parents got divorced after my sister and I moved out, and in my opinion it was the right decision for them. My mom was the one who left, due to actions by my dad, which he says he now wishes he could change but didn't realize at the time. Now they have an amicable relationship, but they used to fight all the time when they were married. They were married too young, and weren't compatible for each other in many important ways, but were in a rush to get engaged and married for a few reasons, including overly religious parents and cultural expectations. It's not good for kids to have parents who don't get along, and only the stigma of divorce kept them together. I still love both of them and don't really blame either of them for what happened, I just wish they had separated sooner.
If I ever get married, I will do so with the intention of being married for life, but only after talking about and working through all the issues we possibly can beforehand, to make sure that we really are compatible and do share similar values. No "love is enough" bullshit or "we'll worry about it when it happens". Obviously shit could still happen, people and circumstances change, and you can't predict life. But with a solid foundation and eyes wide open, marriage has a much better chance of working out. Divorce has to be an acceptable option at all times, when we stigmatize it people stay in unhealthy relationships and it damages them and their families.

I struggle with this even as I help in divorce support groups.  I do agree that when abuse (of any kind) is involved it needs to be viewed as an option, however I do struggle with the fact that by having in essence zero stigma now the trigger gets pulled way too often for things that really are not unhealthy, they are immature, lazy or not willing to compromise/stubborn.  There is easily as much damage done to families by people who got divorced because of (my favorite) "irreconcilable differences".  As one speaker on the topic of divorce says, everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else.  You are very different from your mate. You're supposed to be.  We need to take those differences and find ways for them to be complements rather than conflicts. 

That is where I have a hard time with no-fault divorce, because I think it makes it too easy.  There should be some difficulty, pain or something.  Another version of the same thing is "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love".  I get it can happen, but that usually involves not doing what you said that you will do next time.  I think that is a good recipe for what we did in our marriage, as I said above, where out dating was more like an interrogation process than dating.  These touchy feely divorce reasons occur because not enough work was put into the getting to know you phase.  No one's perfect, but you can improve the odds a lot more if you do the work.
I don't think I agree with you on that. In my mother's culture, the woman is always blamed for a divorce, no matter what the real cause was. Her mother stayed in a physically abusive relationship until her husband died, because divorce was just not an option for her. I don't know if I would go as far as to say my mother was emotionally abused, but I wouldn't have put up with treatment like that, and my dad was unwilling to change/compromise/whatever. Yeah she wasn't being beaten, but she wasn't happy with him either.
I used to live with my partner, we were together for 6 years and common law half that time. We got along, but I wasn't really happy and I couldn't pinpoint why. After we broke up, I had no regrets and I wished I had done it sooner, but it was hard to make that decision because staying together was easy when we were both just going through the motions. Maybe that was "falling out of love". Not all relationships are meant to be, and sometimes it takes time to figure that out. You're not a failure for ending a marriage that isn't working, you don't have to be ashamed, and people shouldn't blame you, for leaving a relationship that does not satisfy your needs. What looks like trivial problems from the outside might actually be significant to those going through them, and the only marriage you can honestly judge is your own, and even then it's complicated. It's never easy to make that decision, and it's usually good to try and work on problems before giving up, but there's no need for any stigma.
My point is not that people should not get divorced.  Your mom's situation is a great example why heavy stigma is a problem.  Your situation you were not married, you were still "exploring".  I get you were living as married (hence your use of common law) but in neither of the two situations that make marriage binding (legally or spiritually) were you married, so you did not get divorced.  I think your point was if you had gone ahead and gotten married that relationship would have ended in divorce.  And yes things do happen that no amount of research could have uncovered.  I get that.  But at least you gave it some effort.  I talk with too many folks in divorce groups who were left by someone who just decided that the relationship did not satisfy their needs, and those needs simply were that the wife put on some weight, or she simply aged (how dare she!) and was no longer hot and sexy, so her husband's needs were not being met.  That's where I think kids and spouses get screwed and a little pain might make people think harder about getting in to begin with or try harder before they get out.

Chesleygirl

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #119 on: August 31, 2017, 03:07:43 PM »
In live in a common law property state.

Isn't it true everything is divided up in a common law property state, as equally as possible, after a divorce?

My Dad claims he got nothing after the divorce with my mom.

I have a hard time believing this.

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2017, 03:10:22 PM »
I struggle with this even as I help in divorce support groups.  I do agree that when abuse (of any kind) is involved it needs to be viewed as an option, however I do struggle with the fact that by having in essence zero stigma now the trigger gets pulled way too often for things that really are not unhealthy, they are immature, lazy or not willing to compromise/stubborn.  There is easily as much damage done to families by people who got divorced because of (my favorite) "irreconcilable differences".  As one speaker on the topic of divorce says, everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else.  You are very different from your mate. You're supposed to be.  We need to take those differences and find ways for them to be complements rather than conflicts. 

That is where I have a hard time with no-fault divorce, because I think it makes it too easy.  There should be some difficulty, pain or something.  Another version of the same thing is "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love".  I get it can happen, but that usually involves not doing what you said that you will do next time.  I think that is a good recipe for what we did in our marriage, as I said above, where out dating was more like an interrogation process than dating.  These touchy feely divorce reasons occur because not enough work was put into the getting to know you phase.  No one's perfect, but you can improve the odds a lot more if you do the work.

People do change, though, sometimes more than you'd think.  For example, my parents got together, got married, had 2 kids, and led a very happy, very successful marriage for the next 25 years.  Then we both went to college, and they realized that without kids to keep them aligned, their goals in life had changed.  They didn't want the same things anymore, and they were no longer happy with what the other had to offer.  That genuinely wasn't the case when they got married, but no amount of interrogation in the dating phase can read the future.

The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."
As I said in the last response, I'm not saying people should not get divorced.  Being deceitful (bad faith in your wording) is not what I'm talking about, especially about something as central to a family as having or not having children.  However, that said, really learning about a person can uncover some of these things.  No direct questioning will not, but observing situations to discern their character can.  That takes time.  While my wife and I did talk A LOT, we also spent time together doing really mundane things to see what was important to us and if we operated in the same way.

If this gets too personal and you do not want to go down this path, I get it, but you mention you mom divorced her first husband because he did not want kids.  Then you mentioned she had a happy marriage of 25 years that then ended after children left because they had no common identity without the kids.  What you did not mention is how quick this change from marriage one to marriage two happened and how truly discerning you feel your mom was when she found your dad, or if hurt from the pain and rejection of being lied to so got in too quickly before learning that the only things they really had in common is the desire for children and that overrode any other red flags that may have been there to avoid what happened at year 25.    My first marriage was similar to your mom's that when we finally got divorced my wife said she went down the marriage and kids track because she felt that's what the world wanted her to do, but that she never really did.  But I can look back and can see the signs clear as day now that I refused to see in our dating that telegraphed this clearly to me, but driven by hormones, sex and all the wrong things (love, but what was really lust) I got married.  That is what led to learning and understanding a whole different approach when I was courting my wife.  The school of hard knocks taught me well.  So point being, it may have actually been obvious to your mom and dad that when kids were out of the picture that there was not a lot that would keep them together but they were so focused on that part they bought into the fallacy that the rest would come and they'd grow together in other areas and they never did.  I did the same thing.  When we're married love will conquer all.  It does not and I should not have married my first wife.

Raenia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #121 on: September 01, 2017, 05:47:43 AM »
People do change, though, sometimes more than you'd think.  For example, my parents got together, got married, had 2 kids, and led a very happy, very successful marriage for the next 25 years.  Then we both went to college, and they realized that without kids to keep them aligned, their goals in life had changed.  They didn't want the same things anymore, and they were no longer happy with what the other had to offer.  That genuinely wasn't the case when they got married, but no amount of interrogation in the dating phase can read the future.

The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."
As I said in the last response, I'm not saying people should not get divorced.  Being deceitful (bad faith in your wording) is not what I'm talking about, especially about something as central to a family as having or not having children.  However, that said, really learning about a person can uncover some of these things.  No direct questioning will not, but observing situations to discern their character can.  That takes time.  While my wife and I did talk A LOT, we also spent time together doing really mundane things to see what was important to us and if we operated in the same way.

If this gets too personal and you do not want to go down this path, I get it, but you mention you mom divorced her first husband because he did not want kids.  Then you mentioned she had a happy marriage of 25 years that then ended after children left because they had no common identity without the kids.  What you did not mention is how quick this change from marriage one to marriage two happened and how truly discerning you feel your mom was when she found your dad, or if hurt from the pain and rejection of being lied to so got in too quickly before learning that the only things they really had in common is the desire for children and that overrode any other red flags that may have been there to avoid what happened at year 25.    My first marriage was similar to your mom's that when we finally got divorced my wife said she went down the marriage and kids track because she felt that's what the world wanted her to do, but that she never really did.  But I can look back and can see the signs clear as day now that I refused to see in our dating that telegraphed this clearly to me, but driven by hormones, sex and all the wrong things (love, but what was really lust) I got married.  That is what led to learning and understanding a whole different approach when I was courting my wife.  The school of hard knocks taught me well.  So point being, it may have actually been obvious to your mom and dad that when kids were out of the picture that there was not a lot that would keep them together but they were so focused on that part they bought into the fallacy that the rest would come and they'd grow together in other areas and they never did.  I did the same thing.  When we're married love will conquer all.  It does not and I should not have married my first wife.

I can't really say how much those factors might have contributed, since I wasn't around at the time ;)  It was not a quick transition from marriage 1 to marriage 2, but I can imagine that the biological clock may have been ticking.  I will say mom was probably too young to make a good judgement on her first husband, and probably did miss some signs - but I don't blame her too much for trusting the person she loved (not that I think you're saying that!)  She was not so young by the time she married my dad, but who knows what they might have missed?

It's not so much that they had no common identity without kids, but rather that the things they both thought they would want after kids were no longer the things they wanted once they got there.  I.E. the kind of retirement they pictured, the way they would live, downsizing, travel, etc.  When they discussed those things before marriage, they were aligned, but once they got there, they realized their wants were not what they had expected them to be.  I'm sure many FIRE types run into this, too.  For example, one spouse thought that after the kids were gone, that meant that the couple gets to switch to taking a fancy cruise or international vacation every year, but the other has realized they don't want to keep working forever and prefers to scale back and move to a smaller house (that's not the situation my parents ran into, just a more mustachian example).

Basically, I don't think my parents would be happier now if they hadn't gotten married in the first place, or had married other people instead, because their family and children were/are such a source of joy, and they did an incredible job of parenting together.  I don't think the fact that the relationship ended diminishes the success of the years they were together.  Am I making any sense?

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2017, 09:11:59 AM »
People do change, though, sometimes more than you'd think.  For example, my parents got together, got married, had 2 kids, and led a very happy, very successful marriage for the next 25 years.  Then we both went to college, and they realized that without kids to keep them aligned, their goals in life had changed.  They didn't want the same things anymore, and they were no longer happy with what the other had to offer.  That genuinely wasn't the case when they got married, but no amount of interrogation in the dating phase can read the future.

The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."
As I said in the last response, I'm not saying people should not get divorced.  Being deceitful (bad faith in your wording) is not what I'm talking about, especially about something as central to a family as having or not having children.  However, that said, really learning about a person can uncover some of these things.  No direct questioning will not, but observing situations to discern their character can.  That takes time.  While my wife and I did talk A LOT, we also spent time together doing really mundane things to see what was important to us and if we operated in the same way.

If this gets too personal and you do not want to go down this path, I get it, but you mention you mom divorced her first husband because he did not want kids.  Then you mentioned she had a happy marriage of 25 years that then ended after children left because they had no common identity without the kids.  What you did not mention is how quick this change from marriage one to marriage two happened and how truly discerning you feel your mom was when she found your dad, or if hurt from the pain and rejection of being lied to so got in too quickly before learning that the only things they really had in common is the desire for children and that overrode any other red flags that may have been there to avoid what happened at year 25.    My first marriage was similar to your mom's that when we finally got divorced my wife said she went down the marriage and kids track because she felt that's what the world wanted her to do, but that she never really did.  But I can look back and can see the signs clear as day now that I refused to see in our dating that telegraphed this clearly to me, but driven by hormones, sex and all the wrong things (love, but what was really lust) I got married.  That is what led to learning and understanding a whole different approach when I was courting my wife.  The school of hard knocks taught me well.  So point being, it may have actually been obvious to your mom and dad that when kids were out of the picture that there was not a lot that would keep them together but they were so focused on that part they bought into the fallacy that the rest would come and they'd grow together in other areas and they never did.  I did the same thing.  When we're married love will conquer all.  It does not and I should not have married my first wife.

I can't really say how much those factors might have contributed, since I wasn't around at the time ;)  It was not a quick transition from marriage 1 to marriage 2, but I can imagine that the biological clock may have been ticking.  I will say mom was probably too young to make a good judgement on her first husband, and probably did miss some signs - but I don't blame her too much for trusting the person she loved (not that I think you're saying that!)  She was not so young by the time she married my dad, but who knows what they might have missed?

It's not so much that they had no common identity without kids, but rather that the things they both thought they would want after kids were no longer the things they wanted once they got there.  I.E. the kind of retirement they pictured, the way they would live, downsizing, travel, etc.  When they discussed those things before marriage, they were aligned, but once they got there, they realized their wants were not what they had expected them to be.  I'm sure many FIRE types run into this, too.  For example, one spouse thought that after the kids were gone, that meant that the couple gets to switch to taking a fancy cruise or international vacation every year, but the other has realized they don't want to keep working forever and prefers to scale back and move to a smaller house (that's not the situation my parents ran into, just a more mustachian example).

Basically, I don't think my parents would be happier now if they hadn't gotten married in the first place, or had married other people instead, because their family and children were/are such a source of joy, and they did an incredible job of parenting together.  I don't think the fact that the relationship ended diminishes the success of the years they were together.  Am I making any sense?
Yes you are.  We've just headed a bit off the point I was addressing that started this part of the discussion which was basically "has divorce become too easy?"  No problem with the fork in the road. It's always interesting to hear about everyone's experiences to learn.

Raenia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2017, 09:24:11 AM »
Yes you are.  We've just headed a bit off the point I was addressing that started this part of the discussion which was basically "has divorce become too easy?"  No problem with the fork in the road. It's always interesting to hear about everyone's experiences to learn.

I think my point was that without relatively easy no-fault divorce, people like them wouldn't be able to part ways amicably when their lives are no longer on the same track.  They might wind up staying married longer, and being unhappy, because what else are you going to do?

Schaefer Light

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 792
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2017, 10:04:51 AM »
The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."

I'm just replying to point out that people can change their minds about anything - including whether or not they want kids.  I think it's entirely possible for a person to enter into a marriage committed to having kids and then be against having kids a few years later.  They weren't necessarily lying or being manipulative when they said they wanted kids.  That could have been what they genuinely believed when they entered into the relationship.  Humans are terrible at predicting what will make them happy.

Raenia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2017, 10:42:00 AM »
The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."

I'm just replying to point out that people can change their minds about anything - including whether or not they want kids.  I think it's entirely possible for a person to enter into a marriage committed to having kids and then be against having kids a few years later.  They weren't necessarily lying or being manipulative when they said they wanted kids.  That could have been what they genuinely believed when they entered into the relationship.  Humans are terrible at predicting what will make them happy.

Very true!  In this particular case it wasn't a few years later, it was right after the honeymoon.  But your point is quite valid :)

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #126 on: September 01, 2017, 01:25:08 PM »
The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."

I'm just replying to point out that people can change their minds about anything - including whether or not they want kids.  I think it's entirely possible for a person to enter into a marriage committed to having kids and then be against having kids a few years later.  They weren't necessarily lying or being manipulative when they said they wanted kids.  That could have been what they genuinely believed when they entered into the relationship.  Humans are terrible at predicting what will make them happy.
Yes people can change their minds, but I'm not going to give people a pass and pat them on the head and say that's OK.  We're not talking about changing their mind about what pizza toppings they like.  On significant things like "do I ever want to procreate or not" if you're waffly about it in anyway then not recognizing that points to such a lack of maturity that marriage needs to be off the table and most sane people understand that this type of item is core to a married couple.  As Raenia pointed out, right after the honeymoon is not based on the experience they had on the beach suddenly shifting such a major decision. 

It just keeps coming back to what I said about marriage not being viewed as as serious a commitment as it once was.  If it was, then the proper thing to do would be to wait until you've gotten answers to the core questions that drive a marriage.  Schaefer taking your wording literally, moving from being "committed" to having kids and then moving to the opposite end of the spectrum.  No, a well adjusted person does not make that swing.  I think it just provides excuses for people when we think swings like this as normal. 

Schaefer Light

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 792
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #127 on: September 01, 2017, 02:14:15 PM »
The other thing you have to consider is that some people enter marriage in bad faith.  My mom's first marriage ended because up-front, he agreed with all of her life goals, but after they were married, he said he'd changed his mind and didn't want children.  That was a deal-breaker for her, and he knew it was a deal-breaker, so he had lied about it to get her to the alter, figuring once they were married she'd just have to go along with it.  I'd say that's pretty "irreconcilable."

I'm just replying to point out that people can change their minds about anything - including whether or not they want kids.  I think it's entirely possible for a person to enter into a marriage committed to having kids and then be against having kids a few years later.  They weren't necessarily lying or being manipulative when they said they wanted kids.  That could have been what they genuinely believed when they entered into the relationship.  Humans are terrible at predicting what will make them happy.
Yes people can change their minds, but I'm not going to give people a pass and pat them on the head and say that's OK.  We're not talking about changing their mind about what pizza toppings they like.  On significant things like "do I ever want to procreate or not" if you're waffly about it in anyway then not recognizing that points to such a lack of maturity that marriage needs to be off the table and most sane people understand that this type of item is core to a married couple.  As Raenia pointed out, right after the honeymoon is not based on the experience they had on the beach suddenly shifting such a major decision. 

It just keeps coming back to what I said about marriage not being viewed as as serious a commitment as it once was.  If it was, then the proper thing to do would be to wait until you've gotten answers to the core questions that drive a marriage.  Schaefer taking your wording literally, moving from being "committed" to having kids and then moving to the opposite end of the spectrum.  No, a well adjusted person does not make that swing.  I think it just provides excuses for people when we think swings like this as normal.

Over the course of a decade, I think a person can absolutely make that kind of a swing in their thinking.  I can't see a person saying they definitely want kids before the wedding and then not wanting them a week after the honeymoon, though.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 02:17:47 PM by Schaefer Light »

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6585
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #128 on: September 01, 2017, 03:02:44 PM »
No-fault divorce is a good thing.

There, I said it.  I know (not hearsay, I know) of divorces back in the 50's and 60's where one spouse had to fake cheating, (complete with detective to testify and cooperative 3rd person) to get the divorce. This is good?

Longer ago, men sometimes just took off (historically men were much more geographically mobile than women), and their wives were left high and dry, no idea what happened to the husband, no way to remarry ("grass widows").

"irreconcilable differences" can hide a world of hurt.  A divorcing spouse may not want to say bad things about the other spouse in public, this is a polite way of saying they just could no longer live with the other person for any variety of reasons.

If a person takes their marriage commitment lightly, isn't it better for all concerned to be able to get out of that marriage easily?  Would you want to have to stay married to someone who took the commitment lightly?

Remember historically marriage was about property and heirs and family alliances, not the spouses involved.  "Easy divorce" means more attention is taken to how the spouses see their marriage.

Society changes.  I remember a bunch of colleagues getting divorces in the 70's and 80's, all nice educated professional women whose husbands had cheated.  Now it is for a variety of reasons, and either spouse - but no-one who is not part of a marriage can know why.  People can be so different in public that the most "perfect" husband or wife can be horrible to live with, once they are not wearing their public face.  Sociopaths make up somewhere around 4% of the population, and most seem just like the rest of us on casual observation.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

Cpa Cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #129 on: September 01, 2017, 07:10:03 PM »
In live in a common law property state.

Isn't it true everything is divided up in a common law property state, as equally as possible, after a divorce?

My Dad claims he got nothing after the divorce with my mom.

I have a hard time believing this.

It's probably not true that he got nothing. If your father got nothing, in all likelihood it was because there was nothing to get, or because any assets belonged to your mother prior to marriage or through inheritance.

But here's a way to get nothing:

Unhappy family lives in a $300,000 house with a $280,000 mortgage. They have vehicles that have car loans and 0 equity. They have $10,000 of debt. Husband has a good income. Wife has no income or a low income and is the primary caregiver. They have two kids.

Divorce comes - their total balance sheet is positive by $10,000, but they'd have to sell the house to unlock it. Attorney's fees and the realtor eat up that little bit of money. Husband still has a good income, but now he has to pay alimony and child support. He feels that he got nothing.

OR - Let's suppose the couple has a positive net worth of $50,000, but otherwise same situation. Wife agrees to forego alimony if he gives her the equity in the house. He feels that he got nothing.

OR - The couple has a net worth of $20,000, but husband is 10 years into a pension. Wife agrees not to lay claim to his pension if he gives her some money. He feels that he got nothing.

The more time that passes, the less people seem to think they "got" in the divorce, even if their settlement seemed equitable at the time.

happyfeet

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2017, 10:37:15 AM »
Interesting topic and been a while since I posted on here.

But.... first started reading MMM about 4 years ago in preparation for my now XH retirement.  Got our food budget under control and really amped up savings.  I was the keeper of the money so to speak and he was the bread winner.  Married 32 years, and basically a SAHM.  Looking forward to a frugal and fun retirement, kids raised(really financially successful kids and frugal to boot- one an engineer) and no debt.  You get the picture. The life I had planned got blown to bits.

Forward to a year ago and X is in full blown work affair - co worked 12 years younger with a family of her own. He refuses to end affair.

My X wants a wife and a girlfriend basically.  OK.  This does not work for me.  Now divorced - after 32 years. The pain of leaving is less than the pain of staying.


Trust me - I tried to "save" our marriage but that takes two people - not one.

I was married to a narcissist sociopath - best therapist and I can come to. The full rage ugly came out when I discovered the affair. Literally the man flipped out overnite.  Still tough to process.  He was a great guy and husband until he was not.

So, what I learned - get a good lawyer.  In any fault state like mine - it is pretty cut and dry so don't get all caught up in the drama - the lawyers feed off of that in terms of billing. 

So grateful I found this site - learned so much on frugal living that I now apply to my life.Learned how to travel cheap - did the awesome credit card hacking stuff.  Haven't paid for an airline ticket in a long time and I travel quite a bit.

So grateful we saved money! LBYM is the key. My financial security is sound - I can work a small part time retail job and be ok.  Biggest unknown is health care as I am only 58.  COBRA for 3 years is expensive but compares to a decent ACA - COBRA is $543 for me and a BCBS plan.

Divorce is a weapon of mass financial destruction - everything in half.  I got half his pension also.  He pays me spousal support until he retires. Half of all assets. Got half his 401K.  We would have had an AWESOME retirement together - so not so much for both of us.  His GF is in debt and has 4 kiddos from 3 men. 

I stayed above the fray so to speak.  Glad I did.  Tried to stay classy through the whole thing.

Ours was not a normal we are gonna be friends divorce.  Those happen but not with us.  He viewed all the money as "his".

Onward to my new life .Firecalc is super helpful in planning my future also.
A big thanks to this site as it did really help prepare me for this path I am on.

We were that family that everyone admired.  Ya never know what life will deal ya.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:41:13 AM by happyfeet »

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2017, 06:34:19 AM »
Yes, the whole story is always more nuanced than the public facade.  That's just human nature I think.

The thing I feel helpless with as a divorce group leader though is people wanting advice but then still not sharing openly.  So we provide advice and then get "no that would not work because...." and then a new detail they never shared comes out.  Well if you had told me that in your original story I would have given different advice.  Some people do just forget that detail, but most times they admit they felt it made them look bad, embarassed them, etc. so they withheld it.  It's just tough for people to get in that safe space even with resource like counselors or divorce support groups.

I'm not sure if some of these "things change overnight" are in response to the topic I started here regarding divorce being too easy, and then posters trying to show why it should be because of these scenarios.  I feel my actual point is getting buried in the hyperbole of what I believe people think I'm saying.  I'm not saying people should be trapped in marriage or even that divorce itself need to actually be harder, i.e. the removal of no fault divorce that I did mention in one post.  It is just a general feeling from what I see that people generally view marriage as much more disposable than it ever was before because of all the legal and societal changes and like it or not this actually creates more of these bad marriages because it gets to be too easy to just get hitched because I can get unhitched amytime I want.  It's more of a vent/frustration when I'm trying to counsel a woman/man who got left for a younger model or because they actually had discussions now about serious topics like retirement and their spouse did not marry them for serious they married them for fun.  The people I try to help usually come to us as broken shells unsure what they did and as we work with them a lot of it could possibly be better if they had systemic supports that would have not had them get married in the first place because their ex would have thought harder about getting married to begin with if getting out was more challenging, or they would have actually tried in the marriage.  These are all just hypotheticals and I'm not sure you could ever put an actual study together that would return any valid results.  After all we just spent the last several posts sharing how what really happened is not shared with others, so they are unlikely to share the truth with a researcher either.

Peony

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2017, 07:17:49 AM »

If a person takes their marriage commitment lightly, isn't it better for all concerned to be able to get out of that marriage easily?  Would you want to have to stay married to someone who took the commitment lightly?


Amen on your entire post, @RetiredAt63, but especially this.

firelight

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 969
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2017, 12:02:02 PM »
Yes, the whole story is always more nuanced than the public facade.  That's just human nature I think.

The thing I feel helpless with as a divorce group leader though is people wanting advice but then still not sharing openly.  So we provide advice and then get "no that would not work because...." and then a new detail they never shared comes out.  Well if you had told me that in your original story I would have given different advice.  Some people do just forget that detail, but most times they admit they felt it made them look bad, embarassed them, etc. so they withheld it.  It's just tough for people to get in that safe space even with resource like counselors or divorce support groups.

I'm not sure if some of these "things change overnight" are in response to the topic I started here regarding divorce being too easy, and then posters trying to show why it should be because of these scenarios.  I feel my actual point is getting buried in the hyperbole of what I believe people think I'm saying.  I'm not saying people should be trapped in marriage or even that divorce itself need to actually be harder, i.e. the removal of no fault divorce that I did mention in one post.  It is just a general feeling from what I see that people generally view marriage as much more disposable than it ever was before because of all the legal and societal changes and like it or not this actually creates more of these bad marriages because it gets to be too easy to just get hitched because I can get unhitched amytime I want.  It's more of a vent/frustration when I'm trying to counsel a woman/man who got left for a younger model or because they actually had discussions now about serious topics like retirement and their spouse did not marry them for serious they married them for fun.  The people I try to help usually come to us as broken shells unsure what they did and as we work with them a lot of it could possibly be better if they had systemic supports that would have not had them get married in the first place because their ex would have thought harder about getting married to begin with if getting out was more challenging, or they would have actually tried in the marriage.  These are all just hypotheticals and I'm not sure you could ever put an actual study together that would return any valid results.  After all we just spent the last several posts sharing how what really happened is not shared with others, so they are unlikely to share the truth with a researcher either.
I agree with the trend you are seeing and I'm worried about it as well. In my part of the world, earlier, marriage used to be 'till death do us part' and families from both sides aided in a marriage's success. Even if there were problems, both the guy and girl were counseled by the elders to fix the issues. As a result families were more stable. But now, the couple just don't discuss about the hard parts of a marriage and I'm sad to see so many of my friends divorce due to immaturity. Many end up getting divorced within days of marriage (the shortest has been an hour). I get divorcing after trying to save the marriage but this is ridiculous. Both husband and wife don't really think through marriage and what it really requires. Some also don't stop to think about any advice they get. It's very sad to see.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 12:04:02 PM by firelight »

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #134 on: September 04, 2017, 10:37:35 PM »
I think how heavily or lightly people take divorce differs by individual. For me, commitment in a marriage was very important. I think being (happily) married give both partners many benefits, as well as providing a stable safe haven to raise kids. It can be a beautiful thing, the shared memories and experiences. Hopefully before tying the knot, is to see what kind of person you are marrying, and whether they value marriage, to continue investing and nuturing that thing, and placing the relationship before other relationships. In retrospect, some of the actions and behaviors of my ex, were signs that he valued the instituion of marriage less, didn't see the value, and so was less willing to invest in it. It may have just been  me though; he seems to be making more of an effort to make his new girlfriend happy, including not wanting to take his belongings because they would make his new place cluttered, or even take our family pet there, because the dog might trample her plants, and going on a trip with her as a couple within 6 months because she wanted to.
I DO think that there are a lot of people out there that exit a marriage for trivial reasons boiling down to the grass is greener mentality. However once someone has mentally left the marriage, there is not anything that can be done about it. At that point there needs to be a way to unwind things with the least amount of suffering.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:42:42 AM by partgypsy »

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #135 on: September 05, 2017, 07:19:50 AM »
What I am speaking of is a little different.

Let's use the analogy of buying a house, which I think is a similar commitment anywhere in the world and translates easily.

Everyone very clearly understands the "difficulties" of getting rid of house you regret, grow to dislike, wish you never bought.  They know all the hoops the need to jump through, the disruption in their lives etc. that happens by making a snap decision to buy something that is not easy to dispense with. 

I believe because divorce has become easier both from a logistics and a life impact (what your family, boss and friends think of you) it also means that there is less forethought about getting married in the first place and I think that is a bad thing.  Now the "stigma" from the religious perspective has not changed that much (in most Protestant denominations, divorced people are barred from having certain roles in the church) and perhaps that is enough because the legal implications of marriage came after that.  However, the impact to the family (read children and extended family) and finances falls in that gray area of being a concern of both your religious life and your legal life.  This gets into a controversial area of the definition of marriage in general causing some of the pressure we see.  From those I have spoken with concerned with gay marriage (and they include one my kids) the reason for wanting it has entirely to do with the legal life and nothing to do with the religious life.  The stance on sexuality in the religious front (how God views it) has not changed and therefore there is usually no care about getting married from that perspective.  The "benefit" comes entirely from the legal side of being able to apply for healthcare and other benefits available in their legal life from marriage.  So what does seem to be happening as we see an erosion in strong affiliation with a religious faith is that the legal aspect of marriage seems to be the focus.  And therefore, just like a business, or anything legally formed, divorce is then viewed as "it no longer works for me so I want out" in a very different way then when the focus was more on the religious side of the scale, which is how marriage was originally designed. 

So the shift I am talking about encompasses all that nuance and I do see that it tends to align that those who take it more seriously also tend to have a higher propensity towards non-secular views of marriage.  I do not think there is anything that can be done about it, as each individual determines their own views I just think the decline of marriage commitment correlates with the decline in faith/belief as a strong tenet in people's lives.

snacky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4732
  • Location: Hoth
  • Our Lady of the Plentiful Naps
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #136 on: September 05, 2017, 07:38:21 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Enjoy what comes
Be amazing at everything
Stomp on the hearts of the unworthy

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #137 on: September 05, 2017, 08:29:44 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?
I assume this topic does not want to devolve into the discussions of what the biblical model of marriage is (it's neither of the things you described, those are the Law, not God's design) so that's all I'll say on that.  If you are interested in that discussion start another thread in off topic or PM me.

But yes, on a broad level what I meant was marriage as a covenant with God not as a legal agreement with the state.

scantee

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 295
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2017, 08:55:07 AM »
Caracarn, you seem to have a romantic and naive idea of what marriage was like for most of human history. People didn't sit around for years and years contemplating their innermost wants and desires, then undertake a massive search for the person who most fit their long term goals. Most people didn't think about these things at all, they didn't have the luxury to. They married whomever their family and community told them to. That's it. Given this, it is weird to me that you are recasting the modern luxury of partner choice as something intrinsic to traditional religious marriage. The transition of marriage away from a religious pact and towards a legal contract is part of the reason why we have any choice in the matter in the first place.

 

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #139 on: September 05, 2017, 10:36:27 AM »
Caracarn, you seem to have a romantic and naive idea of what marriage was like for most of human history. People didn't sit around for years and years contemplating their innermost wants and desires, then undertake a massive search for the person who most fit their long term goals. Most people didn't think about these things at all, they didn't have the luxury to. They married whomever their family and community told them to. That's it. Given this, it is weird to me that you are recasting the modern luxury of partner choice as something intrinsic to traditional religious marriage. The transition of marriage away from a religious pact and towards a legal contract is part of the reason why we have any choice in the matter in the first place.

I do not have that view of historical marriage, I understand it was a poorly thought out set of arranged marriages built as a business model in many cases to further the family's fortunes.  Incorrect interpretation and application of people has convoluted this to be in some way taught in Scripture (my context is Biblical as that is my background.  I cannot speak with any authority on what other religious texts teach).  Again, I do not want to send this thread down Bible study and interpretation as that is getting too much into the weeds on what the topic focuses on. 

As a brief overview, the customs adopted and written about in the historical books of the Bible (which are the ones referred to thus far) are ones that were picked up from customs of the day and of surrounding peoples.  They were not edicts passed down from God.  Having no choice in the matter (of who you marry) had nothing to do with the Bible (man-made religious systems created afterwards made up additional rules to add to it that created that, I do not disagree), it is silent on this issue.  It is not silent on the fact that marriage, once made is designed to be a lifelong covenant.  Therefore entering into it should be taken extremely seriously and not with a view towards having an escape hatch in the event I missed something.  I'd agree that the practice of arranged marriages, encouraging marriages to happen quickly because of other circumstances, creates barriers to this.  In the modern day western cultures having most of that done away with should allow for more analysis.  Once again, all I was pointing out is that I see much less consideration given to the lifelong commitment of marriage which I think would then drive more careful thought on entering to avoid divorce.  I come to that by the fact that I do not think that a normal conversation with someone hundreds or even fifty years ago would have included the phrase, "If it doesn't work out we can just separate (divorce)."  It's my opinion that courting and marriage have been adversely affected by the throw away nature of nearly everything in society.  We have disposable everything from razors to thoughts.  If something does not grab out attention in a few seconds, it is usually bad, so we created speed dating because we have no time.  Then sexting starts to replace actual physical intimacy.  My opinion is all this is bad for us.  I get I can't do anything about it, but that's just how I feel. That led to voicing that I feel maybe something that would introduce a little bit of soul searching back into the marriage process would be a good thing as I believe we've one too far down the line to the other side in making marriage are permanent as the flavor of my chewing gum. 

scantee

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 295
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #140 on: September 05, 2017, 02:54:51 PM »
Quote
Once again, all I was pointing out is that I see much less consideration given to the lifelong commitment of marriage which I think would then drive more careful thought on entering to avoid divorce.  I come to that by the fact that I do not think that a normal conversation with someone hundreds or even fifty years ago would have included the phrase, "If it doesn't work out we can just separate (divorce)."  It's my opinion that courting and marriage have been adversely affected by the throw away nature of nearly everything in society.

The thing that has changed most about the institution of marriage over the past three decades isn't divorce, it's the rapidly decreasing number of people who choose to marry at all, even if they have kids. Qualitative research on this issue has shown that many of these people DO consider marriage to be a sacred institution, which is why they feel like they shouldn't get married unless they can do it "right." The people choosing not to marry aren't spread evenly across the population, they tend to be poorer and less educated. People with higher incomes and more education (who, coincidentally, also are less religious) are more likely to both get and stay married.

Of course, people continue to have sex, get pregnant, and have kids whether they are married or not, which is will the incidence of single parenthood has skyrocketed as the marriage rate has fallen. So, what's worse, people never getting married but avoiding divorce (which is indeed a surefire method!) or people marrying and doing their best but divorcing when it doesn't work out? I'm agnostic on this question, because I don't think that marriage is intrinsic to good parenting, but my guess it that most people would say the first scenario is worse.


K-ice

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Location: Canada
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #141 on: September 06, 2017, 01:21:11 AM »
Looking at custody schedules I think the 2-2-3 or also known the 2-2-5-5 schedule is one of the best I have seen for those who are working on 50:50 custody.

How it works is one parent always has Monday and Tuesday night, the other parent always has Wednesday and Thursday, and then they alternate the 3-night weekend Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Basically over the weekend the child is always 5 days with alternating parents.  The parents consistently know that they are taking their child to x-activity on the week nights.

I've heard parent comments that they also really like the schedule as they can better plan for themselves like Shinny Hockey every Tuesday or Volleyball every Thursday when they are alone.

Here are a few articles on it if anyone is interested:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/brahm-d-siegel/divorce-2-2-3_b_1242330.html

http://www.deborahtoddlaw.com/parenting-time/

http://www.womensvoicesmagazine.com/2015/07/01/dear-janet-the-5-2-2-5-child-custody-plan-parental-dating/

^^ this last one was negative but they mention the "primary parent". Myfirst assumption with suggesting the 2-2-5-5 schedule is that the parents have already agreed they are co-parenting and that equal time is important and best for the children. If you are not at that stage yet, that is a new topic. 


Has anyone tried this 2-2-5-5-? What did you think?

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #142 on: September 06, 2017, 05:58:22 AM »
Quote
Once again, all I was pointing out is that I see much less consideration given to the lifelong commitment of marriage which I think would then drive more careful thought on entering to avoid divorce.  I come to that by the fact that I do not think that a normal conversation with someone hundreds or even fifty years ago would have included the phrase, "If it doesn't work out we can just separate (divorce)."  It's my opinion that courting and marriage have been adversely affected by the throw away nature of nearly everything in society.

The thing that has changed most about the institution of marriage over the past three decades isn't divorce, it's the rapidly decreasing number of people who choose to marry at all, even if they have kids. Qualitative research on this issue has shown that many of these people DO consider marriage to be a sacred institution, which is why they feel like they shouldn't get married unless they can do it "right." The people choosing not to marry aren't spread evenly across the population, they tend to be poorer and less educated. People with higher incomes and more education (who, coincidentally, also are less religious) are more likely to both get and stay married.

Of course, people continue to have sex, get pregnant, and have kids whether they are married or not, which is will the incidence of single parenthood has skyrocketed as the marriage rate has fallen. So, what's worse, people never getting married but avoiding divorce (which is indeed a surefire method!) or people marrying and doing their best but divorcing when it doesn't work out? I'm agnostic on this question, because I don't think that marriage is intrinsic to good parenting, but my guess it that most people would say the first scenario is worse.
I think the two scenarios you present are not presented on the same footing (perhaps, as you leave the key item out in the first one) on the topic I think is intrinsic to well supported families and that is if the parents stay together and are there as a family unit for the kids.  Other studies also show that children with intact families where both parents are present and raise them fare better than those whose parents divorce or who are in a single parent family and the other parent has totally abdicated.  Look at all the studies and laments of inner city youth without fathers.  It's not being or not being married that is at issue.  It's the absentee parent. 

So my decision on which is "worse" is if the parents in your first scenario stayed together.  Maybe you imply they did not either because you meant "it doesn't work out" to apply to both scenarios. 
In that case I'd point you to studies which we reference all the time in divorce support when people ask about when  they should think about dating again.  To a child, someone coming into their life and leaving, regardless of whether a marriage is involved are impacted exactly the same as a divorce.  They have still attached to that person, and that person has still left, and the impact gets worse the more times this happens.  So if the first scenario becomes more of a revolving door than the second one because all that is required to break up in the first case is a hearty "FU" and walk out the door versus having to involve legal systems which take time etc. than in that case, because of the impact to the children (and the leavee) it would be worse. 

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #143 on: September 06, 2017, 06:10:31 AM »
Looking at custody schedules I think the 2-2-3 or also known the 2-2-5-5 schedule is one of the best I have seen for those who are working on 50:50 custody.

How it works is one parent always has Monday and Tuesday night, the other parent always has Wednesday and Thursday, and then they alternate the 3-night weekend Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Basically over the weekend the child is always 5 days with alternating parents.  The parents consistently know that they are taking their child to x-activity on the week nights.

I've heard parent comments that they also really like the schedule as they can better plan for themselves like Shinny Hockey every Tuesday or Volleyball every Thursday when they are alone.

Here are a few articles on it if anyone is interested:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/brahm-d-siegel/divorce-2-2-3_b_1242330.html

http://www.deborahtoddlaw.com/parenting-time/

http://www.womensvoicesmagazine.com/2015/07/01/dear-janet-the-5-2-2-5-child-custody-plan-parental-dating/

^^ this last one was negative but they mention the "primary parent". Myfirst assumption with suggesting the 2-2-5-5 schedule is that the parents have already agreed they are co-parenting and that equal time is important and best for the children. If you are not at that stage yet, that is a new topic. 


Has anyone tried this 2-2-5-5-? What did you think?
My wife's kids are on this schedule.  Now how they got there was far from cordial agreement, but not sure that matters to your question.  Just mentioning it in case it does and you have further questions from that end.

It seems to be fine most of the time.  As the kids age we have found it tougher as they got into high school because a lot of school activities occur on Friday nights or over the weekend and when one parent is less reliable, has sporadic transportation etc. then it creates stress, but almost always there are alternating weekends.  I've mentioned that my kids are on a 10-4 schedule, so even when the parent would prefer it be a 12-2 or most times a 14-0, the days on the low end are still weekends, so this would be a similar problem in both cases, as my ex is fine saying the kids just won't go to things on her time because she does not want to drive them.  In most cases if we can we then go get them and take them, which she's fine with, but it creates a lot of logistics issues for us. 

The kids also still get confused (just had the 18 year old as if they we scheduled at dad's this weekend) even though it theoretically is consistent, but it's still not intuitive when you live it because you are still back and forth, which is the biggest complaint most kids have about the aftermath of divorce, the lack of a "home".  I know our kids envy the consistency that intact families have regardless of which schedule they are on, as they've voiced it to us sometimes.  Stuff gets forgotten at one house, they need to decide to do without or if they need to have it for school or something.  Planning with friends always involves figuring out where you'll be and the 2-2-5-5 does not seem to make that any easier.  The first question we get anytime they plan anything is "are we at dad's or here".  In that regard, my kids with the 10-4 seem to have an easier time figuring it out on their own. 

expatartist

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Location: The Big Lychee
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #144 on: September 07, 2017, 01:51:27 AM »
Thanks to those of you who recommended DivorceCare on p.1 of this post. I found a local group and, even though discussions will be mostly in Cantonese, the films and some parts of discussions will be in English. Eleven Monday evenings of emotions in Cantonese, maybe I'll learn a useful word or two, it's a colorful language to swear in ;)

My marriage ended nearly 2 years ago, and though many of the emotions are behind me, the paperwork hasn't started yet, is complicated and may involve two or three countries so may get expensive, and it looks like I will have to be the one to initiate (and perhaps pay for) everything.
Enjoying the frugal life while living in 150 sqf in the world's most expensive city https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/squeezing-the-most-out-of-life-in-hcol-hong-kong/

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #145 on: September 07, 2017, 07:29:33 AM »
Thanks to those of you who recommended DivorceCare on p.1 of this post. I found a local group and, even though discussions will be mostly in Cantonese, the films and some parts of discussions will be in English. Eleven Monday evenings of emotions in Cantonese, maybe I'll learn a useful word or two, it's a colorful language to swear in ;)

My marriage ended nearly 2 years ago, and though many of the emotions are behind me, the paperwork hasn't started yet, is complicated and may involve two or three countries so may get expensive, and it looks like I will have to be the one to initiate (and perhaps pay for) everything.
Glad the DivorceCare program advice was helpful.  Sounds like you've got your hands full but hopefully it will give you some tools to help on your journey.

actionjax

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #146 on: September 07, 2017, 08:08:13 AM »
Looking at custody schedules I think the 2-2-3 or also known the 2-2-5-5 schedule is one of the best I have seen for those who are working on 50:50 custody.

How it works is one parent always has Monday and Tuesday night, the other parent always has Wednesday and Thursday, and then they alternate the 3-night weekend Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Basically over the weekend the child is always 5 days with alternating parents.  The parents consistently know that they are taking their child to x-activity on the week nights.

I've heard parent comments that they also really like the schedule as they can better plan for themselves like Shinny Hockey every Tuesday or Volleyball every Thursday when they are alone.

Here are a few articles on it if anyone is interested:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/brahm-d-siegel/divorce-2-2-3_b_1242330.html

http://www.deborahtoddlaw.com/parenting-time/

http://www.womensvoicesmagazine.com/2015/07/01/dear-janet-the-5-2-2-5-child-custody-plan-parental-dating/

^^ this last one was negative but they mention the "primary parent". Myfirst assumption with suggesting the 2-2-5-5 schedule is that the parents have already agreed they are co-parenting and that equal time is important and best for the children. If you are not at that stage yet, that is a new topic. 


Has anyone tried this 2-2-5-5-? What did you think?

We're doing this (2-2-3). We started sometime within the last year at the request of our child (elementary school aged) for longer stays at each house. So far, I think it works well. I always know which week-nights I can plan kid-centred stuff on and parent-centred stuff. Splitting/sharing long weekends (each has roughly equal number through the year) takes some preplanning but it always did.
That being said, I can still drive myself crazy thinking our child will not have a "normal" childhood because mom and dad live separately. I am aware that with teenage-hood may come the request to live full-time at one house.  I'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it but I will be amicable regardless.

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 504
  • Location: Canada
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2017, 08:27:32 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Although it will sound inflammatory, I have an honest and sincere question: Do you think you are smart or do you know you're being an idiot?

Deuteronomy and Leviticus, at least in a verbal form, have been around for three and a half millenniums. Heck, even if you think they are anachronistic, they are two and a half millenniums old. Now, in all that time, do you think you (modern man) are one of the first sets of people to ever talk about those verses?

If you think so, you are grossly wrong. If you realize that you aren't a savant or that talking about the Bible isn't a modern concept, perhaps you need to realize that your comment is juvenile at best. When I hear comments like yours, they remind me when I hear a creationist say "Evolution can't be right because monkeys are still around." Both of y'all ignore that the community you are dissing has hundreds or thousands of years of explanatory history and discourse on a topic and your root criticism grazes something it dealt with in its infancy.

As caracarn offered, if you want to discuss this topic I am more then willing to in PM.

MOD EDIT: Forum rule #1
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:24:37 AM by arebelspy »

snacky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4732
  • Location: Hoth
  • Our Lady of the Plentiful Naps
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2017, 09:03:52 AM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Although it will sound inflammatory, I have an honest and sincere question: Do you think you are smart or do you know you're being an idiot?

Deuteronomy and Leviticus has existed, at least in a verbal form, have been around for three and a half millenniums. Heck, even if you think they are anachronistic, they are two and a half millenniums old. Now, in all that time, do you think you (modern man) are one of the first sets of people to ever talk about those verses?

If you think so, you are grossly wrong. If you realize that you aren't a savant or that talking about the Bible isn't a modern concept, perhaps you need to realize that your comment is juvenile at best. When I hear comments like yours, they remind me when I hear a creationist say "Evolution can't be right because monkeys are still around." Both of y'all ignore that the community your are dissing has hundreds or thousands of years of explanatory history and discourse on a topic and your root criticism grazes something it dealt with in its infancy.

As caracarn offered, if you want to discuss this topic I am more then willing to in PM.

Rude.
Enjoy what comes
Be amazing at everything
Stomp on the hearts of the unworthy

frugalparagon

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2893
    • The Frugal Paragon
Re: Divorce help and discussion
« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2017, 12:00:05 PM »
LOL "how marriage was originally designed"... You mean like when a young woman had to marry her rapist as the rapist's punishment for spoiling the woman's father's property? Or when a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night was stoned to death? If we follow the Christian traditions, that's the original marriage. Or were you speaking of some other, non-biblical model of marriage?

Although it will sound inflammatory, I have an honest and sincere question: Do you think you are smart or do you know you're being an idiot?

Deuteronomy and Leviticus has existed, at least in a verbal form, have been around for three and a half millenniums. Heck, even if you think they are anachronistic, they are two and a half millenniums old. Now, in all that time, do you think you (modern man) are one of the first sets of people to ever talk about those verses?

If you think so, you are grossly wrong. If you realize that you aren't a savant or that talking about the Bible isn't a modern concept, perhaps you need to realize that your comment is juvenile at best. When I hear comments like yours, they remind me when I hear a creationist say "Evolution can't be right because monkeys are still around." Both of y'all ignore that the community your are dissing has hundreds or thousands of years of explanatory history and discourse on a topic and your root criticism grazes something it dealt with in its infancy.

As caracarn offered, if you want to discuss this topic I am more then willing to in PM.

Rude.

+1.

Your question is not "honest and sincere," it is deliberately insulting. But you knew that when you typed it. Please stop.

We're doing this (2-2-3). We started sometime within the last year at the request of our child (elementary school aged) for longer stays at each house. So far, I think it works well. I always know which week-nights I can plan kid-centred stuff on and parent-centred stuff. Splitting/sharing long weekends (each has roughly equal number through the year) takes some preplanning but it always did.
That being said, I can still drive myself crazy thinking our child will not have a "normal" childhood because mom and dad live separately. I am aware that with teenage-hood may come the request to live full-time at one house.  I'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it but I will be amicable regardless.



I'd like to go to this schedule. Right now, we have a very awkward two to three day rotation--three days is the longest our five- and six-year-old kids are anywhere, and the days of the week are not consistent--because of my work schedule. I would like to ultimately settle into something more predictable for them. But their father and I are not always going to live 3 blocks apart and right by their school, so I don't know if it's going to be sustainable long term. But should work for elementary and middle school.

I struggle with the same issue of "normal." But hey, my kids get to have two different childhoods! One where they are part of stair-step boys (currently 3,4,5,6) at Daddy's house, where they have a beautiful young stepmom with tattoos and it's chaos and minivan rides and lots of TV and McDonald's trips, because, again, 4 stair-step boys under age 7. And one at Mommy's house where they are the only kids*, and it's lots of snuggles and reading time and Family Movie Night and Family Board Game Night and whatnot. Normal isn't everything.

*For now at least :).
I blog about Mustachianism during the child-raising years at frugalparagon.com.

And I tell the real story in my journal, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/still-living-well-in-the-living-room-but-what's-my-next-move/