Author Topic: Choosing a college  (Read 7948 times)

Mockingjen

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Choosing a college
« on: January 24, 2016, 09:40:47 AM »
Hi everyone,

My eldest son is a senior in high school and we are trying to decide where he should attend college. A few facts: We live in New Mexico, he wants to be a computer programmer, he doesn't love NM and would really like to get away from here asap (he really like colorado), he's a pretty good mustachian and does not want to find himself in a pile of debt post-college.

So...he has an excellent GPA and has done quite well on ACT testing, etc, and as such has gotten several scholarship offers. This is how it's shaking out:

He could go to New Mexico Tech, an excellent school, for almost nothing. Downside to this is that NM Tech is in Socorro, NM, and for any of you who have not had the privilege to visit there, it is a tiny little armpit of a town. Ugly and desolate, and not a place any 17 year old boy can get excited about moving to.

He could go to Colorado State University for about $27,000 a year. This would put him in a place he would love to live, and CSU has an excellent computer science program. This amount is after an 11,000 a year scholarship.  I can say that were he to finish school with significant debt, he would not have a difficult time living very frugally and knocking the debt out quickly. But still, the difference between zero debt and 100,000 of debt is staggering.

Thoughts?

Mockingjen

pbkmaine

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 09:42:40 AM »
These are the only two he is considering?

Mockingjen

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2016, 09:52:06 AM »
He's pretty well narrowed it down to these two. He got a scholarships to UC Boulder as well, but it would cost him quite a bit more to go there than it would to CSU. He could also go to UNM for almost free. Better place to live, but not a great computer science program. NM tech has the best computer science program in the state.


terran

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 10:01:23 AM »
Yikes! $100k will buy a lot of travel to more interesting places. If they really are equivalent schools I'd by pushing NM Tech. What's your job situation... Any way you could establish residency in CO so he could get in state tuition there?

aFrugalFather

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 10:08:30 AM »
I'm guessing he is leaning heavily to leaving to go to CO?  CS should allow him to pay anything down quickly, so I wouldn't be too concerned.  CS is also a tough major (speaking personally), so it would be great for him to be in a place that he is excited about, as there can be a lot of holed up in a dark computer lab with people who haven't showered in days, so any respite from the hard work would really help balance things out.  Is the scholarship dependent on him maintaining a certain GPA?  I assume he is ok with staying in CO to work?  It is good to develop a network in the area you want to work rather than just go to school and pickup and go to another state to work. 

I wouldn't chose CO only for the environment only though, I'd look to see about job prospects coming out of the school and relative pay.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 10:12:23 AM by aFrugalFather »

Mockingjen

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 10:13:10 AM »
Yeah, my inclination is that $100K is worth living in an armpit for 4 years. And good point--he could do some interesting travel during breaks and still save a bundle.

Yes, I could potentially move to Colorado, but my other child still has 2 years of high school and is very involved in this school. So in-state tuition in Colorado probably won't happen for 3 years. Would help some, but not enough to make a huge difference.

I would not say he's leaning toward Colorado. That kind of debt freaks him out quite a bit. He'd rather live there, for sure, but whether that's worth spending that kind of money....


Psychstache

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 10:20:51 AM »
My concern  (which may not be valid since I don't know your child) is that CSU has often ranked high in the list of party schools, especially since the state legalized Marijuana.

The counter argument is that every school is a party school if you want it to be, so knowing the individual is a huge factor in whether or not this matters at all.

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GizmoTX

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 10:45:22 AM »
Have you considered Texas Tech in Lubbock? Very good school for programing & engineering, lower costs than comparable universities, & does award scholarships & need-based aid. The campus is vibrant & the student body is large enough to be interesting yet not too big to be overwhelming.

bobechs

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 10:59:12 AM »
Have you considered Texas Tech in Lubbock? Very good school for programing & engineering, lower costs than comparable universities, & does award scholarships & need-based aid. The campus is vibrant & the student body is large enough to be interesting yet not too big to be overwhelming.

But if scenery is the driving element it does look very much like some of the flatter parts of New Mexico.

Not that I would find west Texas, New Mexico and Colorado radically different places to sit inside for four years, proving to CS professors that I can find the hidden ball.

johnny847

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 11:03:28 AM »
Does Colorado state accept transfer students? What about going to new Mexico tech for two years and transferring?

GizmoTX

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 11:21:59 AM »
Does Colorado state accept transfer students? What about going to new Mexico tech for two years and transferring?

This is a good plan to save money while proving that your son likes & is good at computer programming.

Also look at university co-op programs, which provide built-in internships & pay as you go experience.

One of DS' friends is majoring in CSE at SMU, which is an expensive school unless on scholarship, which both of them are. The friend maintains that his primary reason for learning CS at a university like SMU is for the contacts at the university & businesses to intern at. Otherwise he is bright & disciplined enough to do it online on his own.

dinkhelpneeded

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 11:29:56 AM »
Computer Science Internships over the summer can routinely make you 10K each summer with food accommodation paid for. That brings debt down to 17k/yr

lbmustache

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 11:39:08 AM »
My concern  (which may not be valid since I don't know your child) is that CSU has often ranked high in the list of party schools, especially since the state legalized Marijuana.

The counter argument is that every school is a party school if you want it to be, so knowing the individual is a huge factor in whether or not this matters at all.

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This made me LOL. A quick Google search shows that it's ranked... #66. OP, unless your son is a hard partier or seems like he'd go off the rails unsupervised, I wouldn't worry about it. I was in Denver last year (post-MJ legalization) - visiting a friend at Denver University - and noticed nothing out of the ordinary. People aren't toking up on every street corner.

And yes, depending on your major, any clubs or fraternities you are a part of, any school can be a party school (unless you are in an ultra religious part of the country, I would guess).

I think it's important to go to a school you will like/enjoy. I can't believe I am saying this but I think in the grand scheme of things $100k for his major doesn't seem like a huge roadblock... And in a field like that, you want the big name contacts that you will get through a bigger school. My friend's brother (UCLA) got an internship with Microsoft during college and after he graduated he got a job with them. He makes over $100k (and this is his starting salary).

Sailor Sam

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 11:39:23 AM »
What if you sat down with your son, and decided on some external trigger that would allow him to go to Colorado? Like, I must guarantee xxx in scholarship funding, otherwise Nevada?

Your math works out to 108,000 dollars, minimum. And there's no guarantee that CSU won't increase their tuition each year. It's an astounding amount of money. In the form of a loan that's currently famous for being difficult to escape out from under if it becomes crushing. Not to imply your son isn't dutiful, just that life happens. He'd be in trouble if he ends up without a high paying degree to compensate for the debt incurred.

Noodle

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 12:19:39 PM »
Congratulations to your son on working hard enough to have some great options open!

If it were my son or nephew, this is what I would say given that both are strong programs:

1. The fun of college isn't about scenery--it's about getting to spend four years with other smart people with no responsibilities other than learning stuff (out from under parental supervision :)). Most of the fun in college you make with your friends. And if you're having to get $100K worth of education out of it, you don't have time or money to ski or party or whatever anyway. College students in a tiny town with nothing else to do get extra-creative.

2. 100K buys a lot of freedom. If he leaves college without debt (and STEM students often have lucrative internships to boot), he can live wherever he wants, travel for awhile, get a jumpstart on savings that will give him freedom to start a family or his own business, etc. Meanwhile, his peers have to go straight to work because the loan payments are coming.

3. This has nothing to do with the money, but looking at the numbers, NM Tech is small and CSU is ginormous. That means at NMT he'll have a lot more attention from professors as an undergrad, which will be helpful for references for work or grad school (plus a better education.) 

If he's still dubious, he might think about trying a freshman year at NMT and then transferring. Small schools can be hard to transfer into because people make a lot of their friends as freshmen, but big state schools constantly have people coming and going so he won't have any extra trouble making friends if he arrives later. And at least he's knocked out $25K of the debt.

spokey doke

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 12:55:32 PM »
Noodle is pretty spot on...especially the point about the attention of professors (including having access to actual professors in class, rather than graduate assistants in huge classes).  If he can find a good professor or two that he likes, and a few friends, that could be the basis of a great education and the start of a rewarding career.  The time of his life?  Maybe, maybe not, but the educational part (at least for 2 years before possibly transferring) could be really good. 

meyling

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2016, 01:47:39 PM »
Hmm. I am all about saving money on college and usually when it's something like an expensive Ivy vs cheaper state school I say *always* choose the state school. I chose to go to the University of Pittsburgh solely because I got a full tuition scholarship. But in your son's situation, I think I would go for CSU. Yeah, going to a school with good academics is important, but a big state school will absolutely have good academics no matter what department you're in. Maybe I am just partial to big state schools though. I think the college environment and the city you're in is FAR more important than how well their academics rank. Yeah, it's only 4 years, but it's a real life changing time and you want to enjoy those years.

As far as class size is concerned, even larger schools have really small classes, especially when you get to the more advanced classes.

I did computer engineering and I currently work for a software development company. I honestly don't think that the majority of software companies care AT ALL where you went to school.

Psychstache

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2016, 02:17:37 PM »
My concern  (which may not be valid since I don't know your child) is that CSU has often ranked high in the list of party schools, especially since the state legalized Marijuana.

The counter argument is that every school is a party school if you want it to be, so knowing the individual is a huge factor in whether or not this matters at all.

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This made me LOL. A quick Google search shows that it's ranked... #66. OP, unless your son is a hard partier or seems like he'd go off the rails unsupervised, I wouldn't worry about it. I was in Denver last year (post-MJ legalization) - visiting a friend at Denver University - and noticed nothing out of the ordinary. People aren't toking up on every street corner.

And yes, depending on your major, any clubs or fraternities you are a part of, any school can be a party school (unless you are in an ultra religious part of the country, I would guess).

I think it's important to go to a school you will like/enjoy. I can't believe I am saying this but I think in the grand scheme of things $100k for his major doesn't seem like a huge roadblock... And in a field like that, you want the big name contacts that you will get through a bigger school. My friend's brother (UCLA) got an internship with Microsoft during college and after he graduated he got a job with them. He makes over $100k (and this is his starting salary).
Huh, that's odd. I Googled and found them ranked 8th.

Either way, I agree that the individual's personality is more important than the perceived rep of the school. I had friends that went to ASU and were focused and worked their butts off the whole time. I also had friends that went to Baylor and partied themselves to a sub 1.0 GPA and got kicked out.

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ltt

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2016, 03:28:45 PM »
From another mother of a high school senior who wants to major in CS, try and let him go to where he wants to go.  Has he visited CSU?  That area of the country is gorgeous!

Our son chose between two in-state schools.  One was a very large public university---he basically would be a number.  The other one was private.  I about died when I saw the price tag, but he loved when he visited and he also has been offered some very nice scholarships to go there, so we said yes.  The class sizes were very small and they really help some of those CS kids with their social skills. :)  And it sounds like they are very well prepared for their internships.  Will he have to take on some debt?  Yes, but he also understands that he will have to pay the debt back, and we will also be helping him to come out of college with as little debt as possible. 

He could also attend community college here in the area where we live, but it's really not what he is looking for. 


mxt0133

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2016, 11:51:54 PM »
For some clarification, will you have to co-sign for these loans?  Are they private loans?  I'm pretty sure that government loans won't cover $27K a year.  If you have to co-sign for these loans are you comfortable with the fact that you might be liable for them?

I don't know your son, but few high school seniors know what $27k is let alone $100k, after taxes BTW.  If one of his main arguments is that the scenery is better in Colorado then I would sit down with him and ask him how he proposes to earn that $27k a year?  The point is not to dissuade him from going to the more expensive school but to get an understanding of what kind of debt he is getting into.  If he understands what he is getting into, how long it would take him to pay back a loan like that, ect, then it is kind of on you to support him in that decision.

If he really wants to go there are many way to get that cost down, being a RA, tutoring, working summers, private scholarships, ect, could easily get that down to 10-15K a year.  Still a lot but more manageable than 27K a year.

Also everyone on here seems to give a green light just because the degree is in computer science, but recession happen and no degree is guaranteed a $100K starting salary straight out of college.   I remember graduating in 2001 with a computer science degree and a lot of my friends couldn't find jobs for years in the field.  He might also just realize junior or senior year that he just doesn't like programming (queue the sound of 100K doing down the toilet).


cloudsail

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 01:11:57 AM »
As a software engineer from a family of software engineers, here's some things I would research:

1. How are the internship programs? Do lots of big companies go there to recruit and interview? Is there support to help students with practicing for interviews, etc.?

2. How is the over-crowding situation at the school? Some of the required courses at big public schools are hard to squeeze into, to the point that some students have to delay graduation.

3. Yes, most software companies don't care where you went to school, with one caveat - you have to have work experience. When you have zero experience, what do you think they're going to look at? The school and the reputation of its CS program.

And after he gets into college, I would encourage your son to:

1. Learn the fundamentals, and learn them well. Algorithms and data structures are the things that will help him pass interviews and provide a strong foundation on which to build his technical skills. They will distinguish him from the coding boot camp crowd.

2. Do projects. Absent work experience, they are the only things employers can use to gauge his ability.

3. Contribute to open source. Consider Github as his portfolio.

4. Take some hardware courses. It helps to know what's going on under the covers, and again distinguishes him from the boot camp folks.

5. Do not graduate without at least one internship under his belt. Ideally at a company that most people have heard of. Yes, being a small cog in a big company is not that exciting for a young person, but it's what you use to pad your resume, because everyone knows those companies have strict hiring standards. Once he has that in his history, then upon graduation he can pretty much do whatever the hell he wants.

arebelspy

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2016, 02:27:43 AM »
Any way you could establish residency in CO so he could get in state tuition there?

This is what you need to do.  I went out of state (to California), had to pay out of state tuition my first year, but established residency by living there, getting a job there, paying some taxes there, getting a CA driver's license, registering my car there, etc. etc., which made my tuition subsequent years WAY cheaper.  (Note: They initially denied me year 2, but I appealed with proof of all of the above and my resident status was granted.)

Read more here regarding CO's requirements/guidelines:
http://sfs.colostate.edu/in-state-tuition-requirements

Look into that, and see how much will years 2-X cost him if he does this.  That's probably a better fiscal comparison.

IMO, I'd choose the experience over the money, personally.
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Frs1661

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2016, 04:39:20 AM »
Having been to NMT, it's not so bad. Far from an 'armpit' imo. It is a small town, but it has its charms, especially for the outdoorsy. It may be worth living there just for Burrito tyme(local restaurant). Not to mention low cost of living.

For me, location was not as important as what I learned at school, and the friends I made along the way. I believe I am much better off without a ton of debt. (I did not go to NMT, but my school was not in a 'cool' location by any means).

I would encourage him to try NMT for a year or two and transfer if he doesn't like it. Ultimately though I think it is his decision; it will be his debt to pay.

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SomedayStache

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2016, 10:10:48 AM »
I'm on my phone, so this won't be as descriptive as if I had a real keyboard.

My first year of college was at a large school in Texas.  My classes were in auditoriums and getting an appointment with a professor took scheduling and usually only lasted for twenty minutes.

I transferred to NMT and lived in Socorro for five years.  I hated it at first, it was tiny, it looked dirty and poor, it seemed like there was nothing to do.

But I soon grew to love it.  The classes are small, your professors know you by name.  The students are often close knit and while there is partying and regular fun trips up to Albuquerque, there are a lot more study group gatherings.  If you've heard the term "flow", working on advanced math and engineering homework with my classmates was one of the few times in life I have experienced flow.

If you like the outdoors there is amazeballs rock climbing at box canyon, mountains to climb, canyons to explore.  Colorado is beautiful, but so is  the NM  desert.

It's not the kind of town that looks appealing to a visitor.  But once you live there you discover its charms.  I actually miss living there. 

The education is top notch.  He will actually learn things.  Nmt has a good reputation among companies in the tech fields.

I graduated with $3000 in student loans and job agreement.  I'm so glad I left the big state school to attend nmt.

HydroJim

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2016, 02:38:04 PM »
Check out The University of Alabama in Huntsville. I am currently going here. Engineering is excellent here. Awesome engineering jobs in the area. Students in the honors program are typically 30 ACT+. He may qualify for awesome scholarships. The merit scholarships are based solely on GPA and ACT. If you have any questions, PM me.

galliver

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 07:23:54 PM »
A question: does the ~$0 vs $27k include living expenses?

I went to a small tech school similar to NMT, but in a major city, on a full-tuition scholarship. My parents lent me money for any living expenses I couldn't cover out of summer internships and PT research and tutoring jobs, which ended up being around $25k by graduation (mostly: housing expenses). I absolutely loved the education and opportunities I received for $0. But I also knew people at my school who absolutely hated it.

A small school can be really great...especially if you're more on the shy side; if you might be intimidated for the competition for opportunities (student leadership, undergrad research) at a large school; if you are drawn to the culture and find like-minded people and a sense of community there; if you are there for your education and prefer lots of professor/instructor/staff attention to relative anonymity and extensive bureaucracy; if you are willing to put a lot into your experience; if you are willing to get creative and get people together and start something rather than being a passive consumer of college. Doesn't even have to be big/official. We had a massively successful casual sci-fi movie night with just a large group of friends.

On the other hand, if you don't fit with the small school's culture you might have a hard time (people who came to our tech school with plans to party? Weren't really satisfied). If name recognition/networking is important, you are likely out of luck there (big state schools have proportional alumni networks..."Oh, U of X? I/my sibling/my spouse/my parent/my uncle went there!). If professors' involvement in cutting-edge research matters more than their teaching skill or personal attention, the larger school might be for you; not that ALL profs at large schools suck but in my experience smaller schools put a lot more emphasis and faculty time into their teaching. This is probably not an issue for CS, but: if easy availability of software, a large library, an open-to-all workshop or maker- space, or nice gym facilities is important, those may be easier to come by at large schools who have more resources and more demand (you can check on these things on a school-by-school basis though). If you have significant uncertainty in your  major, a larger school has more options for switching (without transferring).

Regardless of the school, I would estimate that typically 90% of student life takes place on or around campus. It's classes and work and homework and dinner and projects and gym time (hopefully) and sleeping in on the weekend  and yes probably some parties/beers and some school events--conferences, career fairs, football games, LAN parties, etc. And as for the other 10%...if he really loves CO he can organize some roadtrips there (spring break, early/late summer, winter ski trip, etc), or try to find a summer internship or co-op in CO. Or eventually get a job there!

I guess, to me, paying $100k+ to go to CO for college because of the scenery/surroundings is a lot like the idea of getting a tricked out 4WD SUV because you go up to the mountains twice a year for 3 days apiece where that functionality *might* be useful, and then driving it to work and errands the other 359 days of the year. I would totally push him to take the free education, and if you are able, you could sweeten the deal by offering him a $1-2k travel budget/stipend so he can actually take advantage of the savings he is creating (since it's hard to emotionally appreciate the gain of not taking out loans in the moment...). I say this having ultimately gone to the big state school in the middle of a cornfield for grad school: it may not have been my "scene" as much as the smaller school was, but with its other benefits I would totally have advised my past self to go there if it was free. Since it wasn't, I'm very, very happy with my undergrad choice.

CollegeStache

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Re: Choosing a college
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 07:46:13 PM »
A few thoughts:

1. He can make $ during school - variable, depending on your son's drive, skill set, and his ability to optimize free time to make extra money - which offsets a bit of the sting of the $100k potential debt from CSU.  If it's your son who is truly concerned with a pile of debt after college, that should be motivation enough to try to offset it during college.  Should be easy since he wants to do computer things.

2. The "armpit" idea may be overblown.  Unless NM Tech is a commuter school, students will only stay on campus anyway, so the social aspect may not be too contrasting.

3. If you are concerned about your son having debt (for instance, if you are going to be providing him with some assistance), don't let him visit any friends up at CSU - allow this new Onion article to be a cautionary tale! http://www.theonion.com/article/5-months-college-research-outweighed-weekend-visit-52246

 

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