Author Topic: Case Study: Tell Me I'm Stupid For Considering Quitting My Job and Moving  (Read 23703 times)

mxt0133

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This is part of my concern:  I have been extremely lucky in terms of the income that I have been able to get from my jobs. They haven't been enjoyable jobs, but they have been very well paying and, truth be told, I've been paid way more than I what I deserve. To walk away from that, knowing that I will likely never make that much again, is very concerning and is something that I can't do without a lot of thought.

Based on what you are saying, you feel obligated to stay at your job because it pays so well and you feel like you will never find another one like it.  Have you actually tried looking for another job like it?  If you haven't then I would start looking, not to actually take the job but to get a feel for how the job market is.  It just doesn't likely to me that there is no other job like the one you have, i'm not saying lawyers are a dime a dozen but there are a few thousand of them and I'm sure a bunch retire every year.  I'm guess your current position is not as unique, they may not be as cushy but i'm sure you'll be in the same ball park figure if you were to get a similar job.

I don't see why you couldn't take a sabbatical and figure things out.  Just picture yourself 20-30 years from now and think about what you would say to yourself.  Would 3-6 months off really matter that much in the grand scheme of things,  especially if it was to figure out what you are passionate about?

chasesfish

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I'm leaning hard towards the quitting side, however I want to point out two things:

- The relo bonus and temporary housing might be a pretty stiff payback, check and see the terms of the deal, it may burn off month by month

- Don't you realize its cold in Bozeman for 9 months out of the year?  With that kind of portfolio/savings, I think I'd end up on Kauai or Maui

quilter

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So many great replies here. Just one question. Why would proximity to Costco be one of the considerations. I have never been in one, and have made it this far.  I went to their website and nothing hooked me. What am I missing?

By the way, I have lived in nine states and travelled to 47 of them. While Montana is indeed beautiful as you age, have you thought about living in a milder climate?  Living with months of ice and snow gets harder and harder as you get older.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 04:27:59 AM by quilter »

chasesfish

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So many great replies here. Just one question. Why would proximity to Costco be one of the considerations. I have never been in one, and have made it this far.  I went to their website and nothing hooked me. What am I missing?


I weighed the 45 minute commute to costco vs. 15 minute as a big issue in the job I recently took.  Its a bit absurd, but I really enjoy costco's value above everything else (value = quality/price)

Random Poster

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Also, and you don't need to answer this, couldn't your wife work while you retire?  You had said something along the lines that it wasn't worth it at your current income levels.  However, without you working that might change the dynamics.

She could, and if my income was lower, the net effect of her working would probably be worth it.  That said, I don't feel comfortable putting her in a situation where she needs to work simply due to my career/job issues.

Don't laugh, but have you ever been to Walla Walla, WA?

We visited there about a year ago, during a tour of various Washington State Parks and National Parks. Seemed like a pleasant town.

I'm leaning hard towards the quitting side, however I want to point out two things:

- The relo bonus and temporary housing might be a pretty stiff payback, check and see the terms of the deal, it may burn off month by month

The temporary housing certainly adds up over time, and we recently relocated to a better temporary housing situation (long story, and its irrelevant to this discussion).   Unfortunately, the payback amount doesn't decrease over time.  If you stay less than one-year, you owe it all back.  If you stay a year (plus 1 day, I suppose), there is no repayment obligation. 

Given the change in temporary housing, I can see the payback costs being in the $7500 range.  I'm not counting the relocation bonus, because I would just hand back over what they gave me, so it would net out to zero. Thankfully, I suppose, the actual moving expenses are not required to be reimbursed since it was an international move.

- Don't you realize its cold in Bozeman for 9 months out of the year?  With that kind of portfolio/savings, I think I'd end up on Kauai or Maui

Oh, we are quite aware of Bozeman's climate.  We lived in Canada and loved the weather there, and Bozeman seems to be pretty similar to where we were in Canada, so this shouldn't be too much of an issue for us.

So many great replies here. Just one question. Why would proximity to Costco be one of the considerations.

It isn't, really, but I have found that having a Costco in town is a good and quick proxy for a city's economic opportunities and population demographics.   So all things being equal, if one town has a Costco and another one doesn't, I'd lean towards the town with a Costco first.  But it isn't a final determinative by any means.

mbl

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 I suspect that you really don't know what you want.
How much money is enough?    How is fear ruling your decisions?

oldtoyota

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Figure out if your going to have kids. 

If no kids, and you are comfortable go. Know the in-house legal market is not that great.  My husband is at a similar level as you and has been casually looking for a while.  Lots of firms want him (and want him to work tons of hours) and are willing to pay more; he want's to stay in house for the "more reasonable" work life balance.  [We have a kid, so we want bigger numbers].

If you want to have kids, I would try and keep the job for the healthcare and because one year of savings invested for your child would set them up nicely in the future. Plus it's shocking how much you spend on some of their stuff. 

If you think you want 6 kids --then plan to work forever.......

WTF? This is terrible advice, no offense. 1.8 million is a LOT of money, kids or no kids. My FIRE plan is way less than that, and I'd be thrilled if we reached our number and the kids were still around the house. More time as a family, more opportunities to travel, etc.

It is all about circumstances.  It all depends where you want to live.  How you want to raise your kids.  [Not to mention the possibility of having children with disabilities] I'm not talking access to luxury goods but experiences and classes are not inexpensive.  My daughter is 3 and we currently spend approximately $4000 on activities for her and these are the "low-cost" options in our area.  She has expressed an interest in learning violin, and I almost puked at the cost of suzuki in my area.  Luckily I found a woman willing to teach her for free in exchange for English lessons, but if my daughter really likes it an exceeds this woman's limited knowledge.  I also teach swim lessons in exchange for my daughter to take art.

My daughter makes art all the time..for free. I think the Goblin Chief is expressing what many of us here would express. Your child doesn't *need* to take activities. You are choose that. A three-year-old kid definitely does not *need* an art class.

If one choose to work longer so their child can take art and violin and so on, then that is a choice. But, it's certainly not required. I spend a lot less than $4,000 on activities for my kid per year.




anisotropy

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hey OP, we are in similiar situations. Currently we've promised each other to work a few more years (more like 10). We have this deep-rooted fear and insecurity, even though we are doing ok we still worry.

i guess the fear comes from experiences. when we first discovered that money was cheap and plenty, we also learned how easy it was to blow 100k+ a year on "basic needs". well, we've cut back quite significantly these days but the experiences linger.

we are afraid that if we were to suddenly quit we'd be so bored and revert back to who we were before. so yes, planning is key. and that's what i've been doing for the past 6 months: planning for retirement.

waltworks

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I have to wonder if some of the folks who have all this money but are afraid to quit jobs they "hate" don't actually hate working, or accumulating money - because that's all they have ever really tried to do?

I mean, if you don't have any enjoyable hobbies, or you're not trying to beat your 10k PR or want to build your own motorcycle or whatever, I suppose quitting would seem scarier than sticking around, because you'll be losing that visceral $-in-bank-account reward at the end of the month/quarter/year. I'm guessing in many cases most of the social interaction folks like the OP are getting comes through work?

Am I wrong? I am just baffled that people would ask about whether they should quit under circumstances where they have many multiples of the amount needed and claim to dislike their work. There's a whole world of fun stuff out there and no matter how conservative you are with money you're at basically zero risk in the OP's shoes. At least in WCFrugal's case we had someone who claimed to enjoy spending a ton of money - the OP here sounds very frugal and not particularly interested in material possessions. This should be a slam dunk (you too, Anisotropy). What gives?

-W

mxt0133

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I have to wonder if some of the folks who have all this money but are afraid to quit jobs they "hate" don't actually hate working, or accumulating money - because that's all they have ever really tried to do?

I can imagine that this is the case for a lot of people that don't really like their jobs or feel alive doing what they do.  I took a 7 month sabbatical after I got married because I did not like my current job.  Wife and I relocated to the west coast and I thought I would figure it out.  I spent a lot of time reading, playing video games and annoying my wife.  What I discovered was that I didn't know what else to do because I was trained to pick a profession to maximize my earnings potential, so that I could spend it on things that everyone else thinks I should get, a car, a house, fancy vacations, ect.   Well I didn't care for any of those things and made more than enough to cover my basic needs and hobbies.  So when I quit it was pretty depressing that after 4-6 months of being off and doing some soul searching I came up with nothing else I realistically wanted to do or be passionate about. 

So I went back to work had kids and work so that my wife could be a SAHM.  I know myself a little bit better and have found motivation to FIRE to spend more time with the family.  But I have also been more pro-active in finding work that I am actually interested in and passionate about.

anisotropy

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hmm yes i agree with you on this 100%, quitting is scarier than sticking around.

And yes, most of my social interaction happen with coworkers and classmates (that work in the same industry). I do not hang out with my pre-college friends as much anymore. The last time I saw them was awhile ago and I've missed about 2 or 3 gatherings since then. We've become very different people. Or rather, perhaps I have become a very difference person.

I dont dislike my job, there are days I wish I were retired but the fear and insecurity I harbour always make me go to work.

I firmly believe our ER needs to be properly planned out, or we could very well be so bored that we go out and blow our entire stash in a matter of years. A few more years at work gives us more time to plan and prep both mentally and financially. Also, if I were to meet my demise before I ER then I wouldn't need to worry about it anymore right? :P

BlueHouse

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The money shouldn't be what drives you to keep the job (you'll pay the amount you "save" when you uproot yourselves again and you won't have to be miserable for a year.).

Can you explain this comment to me?  I figure that over the next 14 months, we should be able to save $165k. Surely it won't cost that much to move 2 people and the contents of a 1 bedroom apartment 1400 or so miles.

I was referring to the payback amount for the relocation expenses and bonus.  Not sure what those would amount to, but it seemed to be a concern to you in the sense that you might worry about having to pay back some (relatively) minor amount.  No, moving wouldn never cost that much, but if it did, I would change careers right now! :)

Unique User

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I'd take the 14 months to figure out what I want to do next and make plans, but I'm pretty slow to make major changes.  Agree with previous posters that the thought of being able to quit at any point would make work a LOT better.

Have you checked out any areas in CO?  We're looking at Durango as a possibility, we really miss Colorado (left 7 years ago).  I have a number of family members in oil and gas biz, if you were in Southwestern CO you might be able to pick up work here and there also. 

ch12

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Quit yesterday.

You act like there will never be another chance for you. There always is. If you decide to go back to work, the work will always be there.

Your wife working isn't like you're suddenly forcing her into wage slavery if you quit. It's just an option for cash flow. That's all - and you continuing to work a bit is also an option for cash flow.

Think of it more as FI and less as retirement where you sit and then golf every day.

Desert

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Have you considered Bend, Oregon? 

And yes, you have plenty to retire on.  Working for 14 months more isn't the worst idea though.  You'll need nearly that long to complete your plan and find a place in Bend.  :)

bobmarley9993

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Quote
She could, and if my income was lower, the net effect of her working would probably be worth it.  That said, I don't feel comfortable putting her in a situation where she needs to work simply due to my career/job issues.

I think you should compare your wife working while you retire to the situation where you both retire.  Clearly, right now, you are thinking about everyone retiring.  I am just saying, if you're comfortable with everyone retiring then you are not adding any risk by asking her to work you are reducing risk.   The way I see it, right now it is about 99% that you will be able to retire forever without having to make significant life changes.  If she works 3 years that bumps up to 99.9% or something.   It is just a question of whether she enjoys the job or not.  If she hates it then clearly this isn't an option but if she enjoys her job then why not?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 09:12:43 PM by bobmarley9993 »

Stacey

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Your situation is fascinating, and I completely get why you're on the fence even though you're not happy in your job.  I quit my similar and also high-paying biglaw job a year ago to travel around the country with my husband and toddler.  While we're on our way to being FI, we do not have the stash built up that you do and weren't just a year or two away.  Had we been, I would have stuck it out and gotten to FI before quitting.  Funnily enough, the only place we visited on the entire trip where I had an "ah-ha" moment and felt like it could definitely be home was Bozeman.  Strange...  And the weather is exactly what we were looking for - to other folks in the forum, some people actually prefer winter!  Anyways, for other reasons (namely family ties), we're most likely not going to wind up there, but just thought I'd throw that other similarity out there. 

As for what I'd do if I was in your situation, I'd scrap any artificial deadlines you're giving yourself and instead take the time that many folks have suggested to get your ducks in a row and really figure out your next steps.  If you get to a point this summer where the job is giving you so much anxiety or stress, then know that you can quit at any time and be perfectly okay.  As for the worry about quitting and not being able to get a similarly high paying job again, I completely get it.  That was my biggest hold back, as well.  Sure, you know you could get another high paying job, but it might not be quite as high if you get off the track for too long or, if you did, it would likely be filled with the same negatives of your current job.  That being said, given your stash, you could take a low paying job that you really liked if you felt like you needed the extra cash.  So, I'd say to just spend the time really getting yourself comfortable with the numbers and figuring out your next steps.  If you believe that you're already there with the numbers - as in you'd be able to support yourselves at the lifestyles you'd like to live off of your passive income, then don't stress at all.  If not, then I'd do some serious work to figure out what that number is and what the lifestyle is.  Working another year may get you there, but so may only work six months.  Or, if you have your hopes set on a more lavish lifestyle (and I'm thinking you don't), then figure out what exactly would get you there without worrying about how it fits in to the various compensation schemes at your current place of work.  Once you've figured that out completely separate from your current job (and all the emotions that entails), then you can make a much more accurate assessment of whether you're ready to call it quits this May or at some later date in the future.

You're not alone!  I'd love to hear what you end up deciding to do.  And if you do move to Bozeman and by chance we wind up there, too, let's grab a beer. 

MMMdude

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Haven't read the other responses, but I firmly believe one needs a paid off home before getting to a place they can call financial independence.  So let's earmark 500K for that.  That leaves you $1.5 Million which is not enough based on your current spending.  I would want at least 33X annual after tax expenses saved up to consider retiring and I don't think you are there yet.  Plus, if you are out of the job market for six months noone will touch you with a 10 foot pole so choose wisely.

MMMdude

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With almost $2 million in the bank, potential kids are set regardless. Having their parent around instead of being at work 70 hours a week is worth more than piling up more unnecessary cash, no?

I guess I have a hard time grasping why this is even in question. At the commonly accepted conservative 4% SWR, you're talking $80k/year. That is a freaking ton of money even if you want to travel around and buy useless junk (or have kids). If you hate your job, freaking quit.

-W

Figure out if your going to have kids. 

If no kids, and you are comfortable go. Know the in-house legal market is not that great.  My husband is at a similar level as you and has been casually looking for a while.  Lots of firms want him (and want him to work tons of hours) and are willing to pay more; he want's to stay in house for the "more reasonable" work life balance.  [We have a kid, so we want bigger numbers].

If you want to have kids, I would try and keep the job for the healthcare and because one year of savings invested for your child would set them up nicely in the future. Plus it's shocking how much you spend on some of their stuff. 

If you think you want 6 kids --then plan to work forever.......

You are wrong that 4% is considered conservative.  It is a withdrawal rate that is considered successful most of the times (95% success rate) over a THIRTY YEAR TIME FRAME.  OP is considering a 60 YEAR RETIREMENT TIME FRAME.   I would want at most 3% withdrawal rate and am planning for that myself at age of 45 retirement.

waltworks

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Oh, I'm aware that it can fail at 4%. But the underlying assumptions (no change in spending, not a dime in income from either spouse) are ludicrous IRL. The only real failure mode is a total black swan disaster, assuming the OP would be willing to slightly reduce their expenses or take a part time job for a year or two if needed.

Assuming $500k for a house is also a bit much, IMO. OP already said he thought max of $300k, as well.

-W


You are wrong that 4% is considered conservative.  It is a withdrawal rate that is considered successful most of the times (95% success rate) over a THIRTY YEAR TIME FRAME.  OP is considering a 60 YEAR RETIREMENT TIME FRAME.   I would want at most 3% withdrawal rate and am planning for that myself at age of 45 retirement.

DoubleDown

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Haven't read the other responses, but I firmly believe one needs a paid off home before getting to a place they can call financial independence.  So let's earmark 500K for that. 

Lol wut??! When did a $500k house enter the equation, especially in Bozeman, MT? Are we talking about the Clampetts buying a house? And you realize there are many FI people without paid off houses, right?

That leaves you $1.5 Million which is not enough based on your current spending.  I would want at least 33X annual after tax expenses saved up to consider retiring and I don't think you are there yet.

Did I stumble onto the wrong forum? The OP's estimated non-housing expenses are $1652/month. Even at your almost outlandishly conservative 33x saved up, that's somewhere around $550k, not $1.5MM! Where are you coming up with these figures?

Plus, if you are out of the job market for six months noone will touch you with a 10 foot pole so choose wisely.

Again, Lol wut?!

G-dog

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I know how you feel. I am not as well-situated as you re:assets, but I am currently struggling to hang in there in an Patent job I hate. I am targeting 'retiring' at 55, but am really hating my job right now. I am kind of freaking out because I am sure I won't ever get paid this much again. It is hard to walk away from the money even when the job is slowly killing you. Rationally, I think I could quit now, but emotionally it is flop sweat panic inducing.
It sounds like you don't hate hate hate your job, that should make your decision a little easier, no matter what you decide to do.
Good luck.

Roland of Gilead

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How is your SS looking at 37?  You have enough credits for sure but will have a lot of zeros.

We are going to ER at 45,46 with about 1.4 to 1.5 million (so quite a bit less than you) but do have 25 years of SS credits which means a reasonable payment at 67 (or 70 if we delay).  If you started working at 21 you would only have 16 years so far.  Were they all at near max?

Random Poster

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How is your SS looking at 37?  You have enough credits for sure but will have a lot of zeros.

We are going to ER at 45,46 with about 1.4 to 1.5 million (so quite a bit less than you) but do have 25 years of SS credits which means a reasonable payment at 67 (or 70 if we delay).  If you started working at 21 you would only have 16 years so far.  Were they all at near max?

I didn't really start working until 24 (I had a few summer jobs here and there before then, but nothing substantial). I didn't hit the max contribution for SS until around around 8-9 years ago. That all said, I'm not expecting anything from SS, so I've never included any benefit that I may receive from it in my calculations. My wife, being a teacher, didn't pay into it, and thus would get nothing out of it unless, I suppose, I died.

LAL

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I'd work 14 months and figure out where I'd want to live. You aren't sure so plan for the next year health insurance, living, etc.  Then retire. I wouldn't work for the money just the time to plan.  We're doing the same thing but downshifting.  And according an old post on this site we increased our retirement/taxable savings by $175k since last June.  And right now I've been wavering between 1 or 2 years to "ER".  Seeing how much we save in 1 year I'm leaning towards 2 years and padding our accounts.